Juno News - June 30, 2023


Why the activists who hate Canada are wrong


Episode Stats

Length

34 minutes

Words per Minute

174.4298

Word Count

5,978

Sentence Count

273

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

14


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome back to the Andrew Lawton Show, the last show before Canada Day or Dominion Day as the old-fashioned among us like to call it still.
00:00:20.320 We thought we'd do something on this show with the holiday upon us, a little bit different from what we normally do, and it's a bit of a follow-up from a discussion we had last week with Mark Milkey, who's the editor of a great new book called The 1867 Project, Why Canada Should Be Cherished, Not Cancelled.
00:00:37.860 We had such a great time with Mark. We thought it would be really lovely to go into a bit more depth about the landscape in Canada, looking at history and, of course, contemporary issues as well, and really that fundamental idea that Canada is a country worth celebrating.
00:00:53.580 So we brought Mark back, but we also have two of the contributors from this great anthology of essays.
00:01:00.680 One of them is Dr. Lynn McDonald, who is a professor emerita of sociology at the University of Guelph and a former member of Parliament.
00:01:08.860 We also have Dr. Rima Azar, who is an associate professor of psychology at Mount Allison University, and, of course, Dr. Mark Milkey, the editor of this and the publisher as well.
00:01:19.680 He is the president of the Aristotle Foundation. It's wonderful to have all three of you here joining us, and thank you so much for your wonderful contributions to this.
00:01:29.420 Let me begin with you, if I can, Lynn, because there has been oftentimes in the discourse about Canadian history and whether we need to cancel it and cancel historic figures,
00:01:39.840 what has appeared to be a left-right fault line politically, and your contribution is fascinating.
00:01:46.080 You have a great chapter about Egerton Ryerson, but I think it's particularly noteworthy that you're a former New Democrat member of Parliament,
00:01:53.600 and I think in the current political context, it's often people on the left that it looks like, from my vantage point,
00:02:00.300 are the ones leading the charge to cancel historic figures, and I was just wondering how you view that political dynamic.
00:02:06.720 Well, you're right, and it's very embarrassing for somebody on the left, which I still am, to see people whose other views I respect and share,
00:02:17.840 to have dumped on the bandwagon, to have been uncritical.
00:02:21.200 I'm not a historian by background, but I've basically become a historian, having worked on Florence Nightingale in the 19th century,
00:02:27.560 a period that overlapped with Ryerson, so when the move came against Ryerson, and I think the move against Ryerson was all parties,
00:02:37.340 but generally speaking, that's true for the people who are in Mark Mielke's book, and I was very pleased to be invited into it,
00:02:44.820 but I'm just constantly embarrassed by my colleagues who just get it wrong.
00:02:49.940 They just don't seem to care about facts.
00:02:51.980 I'm a fact person.
00:02:52.980 I'm a content person, and I do the reading.
00:02:57.600 Yeah, and in the case of Ryerson in particular, here's a guy who is responsible in large ways,
00:03:03.660 as Mark and I were talking about a bit last week, for public education in Ontario,
00:03:07.720 which is, again, something that is pretty widely accepted and widely regarded among people in all parties,
00:03:14.140 but certainly people on the left should be celebrating that.
00:03:17.260 So what is it that you think makes it so difficult for them to overlook these things, to focus only on the negatives?
00:03:24.880 Well, they don't understand history at all.
00:03:27.860 What Ryerson did was revolutionary at the time.
00:03:30.560 Now, she himself had trouble with political parties,
00:03:33.280 and so she was well-connected with Mr. John A. Macdonald before he became Sir John A. in 1867.
00:03:40.180 In effect, John A. Macdonald was his boss when Ryerson was a civil servant.
00:03:45.540 He couldn't get anything through without persuading people.
00:03:48.460 So he had to persuade people of any party, and he did.
00:03:52.240 And what he did in Ontario was revolutionary.
00:03:54.860 It influenced the education systems for the rest of the country,
00:03:58.620 and it even influenced the education system in the UK.
00:04:02.700 And it was, as you say, you can't put a party label on him.
00:04:06.020 But he was, well, possibly a very progressive conservative.
00:04:09.480 He certainly was a, he certainly wanted a substantial public sector.
00:04:15.460 There should be a free public education system.
00:04:18.420 We don't understand that now.
00:04:19.900 He didn't have a boss as minister of education.
00:04:22.520 There was no minister of education.
00:04:25.240 He, eventually, his position became deputy minister of education.
00:04:28.460 But at the time, education was entirely private.
00:04:31.480 If you could pay for it, you got it.
00:04:33.020 But he was a person who saw an important role for the public sector.
00:04:39.480 And what Tommy Douglas did on health care.
00:04:43.900 But people get it in the NDP about Tommy Douglas,
00:04:47.340 but they don't seem to get it about Edgerton Ryerson.
00:04:49.680 I'll go to you on this, Rima.
00:04:53.040 I know that your chapter focuses on identity politics,
00:04:56.140 so not Canadian history per se.
00:04:58.360 And you look at your experiences from Lebanon
00:05:00.720 and how they relate to the Canadian trends
00:05:04.000 and the Western trends we're seeing on this.
00:05:05.860 But I'll ask you in that similar vein about the left-right issue here.
00:05:10.000 Do you view the identity politics issue as being a left-right one?
00:05:13.920 Or do you think it's more broader than that?
00:05:16.280 Do you think it's broader than that?
00:05:18.480 Thank you.
00:05:19.240 And I would like to send you to what Dr. McDonald said
00:05:22.360 about the facts, reminding us of that.
00:05:24.700 And to answer you, I denounce identity politics.
00:05:28.260 It doesn't matter from which side it's coming, left or right.
00:05:31.900 Right now, it's the left.
00:05:33.620 It's the radical left.
00:05:34.740 But maybe in the future, it may be coming as a response or a shift from the right,
00:05:42.480 from maybe the true left, sorry, far right,
00:05:46.240 not the far right that they accused us of
00:05:48.880 when we are expressing our opinions or questioning things.
00:05:53.800 So to answer your question, identity politics as a principle is dangerous.
00:05:58.660 And history has shown us that Lebanon is a school in itself,
00:06:03.180 not just for my birth country, but for the whole world,
00:06:06.900 not to do what Lebanon said he has gone through civil war, right?
00:06:12.960 One of the things that I, not in Lebanon specifically necessarily,
00:06:17.000 but in other Middle Eastern countries that we see
00:06:18.920 when there is a dramatic regime change or a revolution,
00:06:22.260 one of the first things we see images of
00:06:25.060 are tearing down the monuments to whatever was there before.
00:06:29.040 And, you know, in some cases, it may be a figure
00:06:31.140 that shouldn't have a monument.
00:06:32.780 In other cases, it's churches that are thousands of years old
00:06:35.700 that have withstood wars and conquests, but can't withstand this.
00:06:39.480 So how do you feel when you see similar trends in Canada,
00:06:44.720 people that have this same level of destructiveness
00:06:47.600 that is the very worst trait we see in some other parts of the world?
00:06:51.960 Deeply said, shocked.
00:06:53.840 That's unacceptable, regardless of the figure.
00:06:58.400 So imagine what we call the fathers of Canada.
00:07:01.800 That's kind of insulting to the collective memory, right?
00:07:05.180 But even if we forget that,
00:07:07.560 and even if some historic figures are controversial
00:07:11.800 through the eyes of the lens, our lens right now,
00:07:14.480 I think we should remember that they are the men of the past,
00:07:18.480 that there are times, they are not the men of today or tomorrow.
00:07:21.420 So remember the context.
00:07:23.700 And burning churches or temples or synagogues
00:07:26.320 or mosques or anything like that is a no-no.
00:07:30.700 I just, a story for you,
00:07:32.580 someone from Lebanon once wanting to immigrate here
00:07:35.460 contacted me asking,
00:07:37.180 is it true that in Canada we are burning churches?
00:07:40.080 They got scared, imagine.
00:07:42.900 Let me ask you, Mark, about how we weave this all together.
00:07:47.060 Because, you know, there was a time when being Canadian,
00:07:50.460 up until even a few years ago,
00:07:52.120 was a very unifying thing for people in Canada
00:07:55.160 and people who had been born here,
00:07:57.460 people who had emigrated to Canada,
00:07:59.820 people who were new citizens,
00:08:01.220 people who were permanent residents.
00:08:02.440 It used to be very unifying.
00:08:04.560 And obviously a lot has changed politically
00:08:06.180 in the last few years in this country
00:08:08.100 as it has elsewhere in the world.
00:08:10.060 But now we have strange CBC articles
00:08:12.640 about how the Canadian flag is a far-right symbol
00:08:16.200 to some people.
00:08:17.140 And we have people that are, you know,
00:08:19.220 on Parliament Hill saying
00:08:20.240 we need to lower the Canadian flag to half mass
00:08:22.640 for the better part of half a year.
00:08:25.140 And as I mentioned, when you and I spoke last week,
00:08:27.340 the idea of celebrating Canada
00:08:29.480 is perhaps not controversial
00:08:31.420 to the population as a whole,
00:08:33.900 but certainly in some segments of it
00:08:36.020 is not going to be well-received.
00:08:39.060 So where do you take this?
00:08:41.000 Where do you take all of these things
00:08:42.420 that we're talking about now
00:08:43.480 and try to put that positive stake in the ground?
00:08:47.900 Well, there are a number of things happening, I think.
00:08:49.980 One is we should dispense with party politics
00:08:52.740 because, frankly, political parties and politicians
00:08:56.040 are always at the end of an ideas stream, so to speak, right?
00:08:58.760 Ideas affect culture, and culture affects politics.
00:09:01.900 That's the order of how it goes.
00:09:03.900 So when a chunk of the population looks back
00:09:06.760 and has a simplistic view of history,
00:09:08.400 utopian view of history,
00:09:09.560 where they see people in the 19th century
00:09:13.280 and go, well, they weren't perfect
00:09:14.480 or they had ideas different than ours.
00:09:16.800 Well, no kidding.
00:09:18.560 And also the imperfections.
00:09:20.340 What they do is they look at history as wrongly
00:09:24.440 in this sense,
00:09:26.220 rather than looking at history as an oak tree,
00:09:28.100 where you get this wonderful country
00:09:30.460 that grows up over decades and centuries,
00:09:33.780 and civilization sometimes,
00:09:35.000 in the case of civilization's millennia,
00:09:38.060 where you prune branches,
00:09:39.420 you try and make it better
00:09:40.260 if you're interested in, say,
00:09:42.200 a free and flourishing society,
00:09:44.520 and especially, as we've known, in the Anglosphere.
00:09:47.240 We have people today that see a flaw in history
00:09:49.540 and a flawed limb on the tree,
00:09:51.060 and rather than just cut off the limb,
00:09:52.900 which has already been done historically,
00:09:54.500 we gave women the vote in the 1910s,
00:09:56.340 we restored the vote to indigenous people
00:09:58.100 that never should have been taken away in 1960,
00:10:00.240 and so on and so forth.
00:10:01.920 Rather than look at the oak tree
00:10:03.580 as a project that shelters people
00:10:06.040 over the decades and centuries,
00:10:07.780 you have people that see a flaw in history or now
00:10:10.600 and want to take it down.
00:10:11.680 And I think actually the rise of social media
00:10:13.660 and the internet exacerbates this.
00:10:15.220 I mean, think about this.
00:10:17.060 50 years ago,
00:10:18.320 if you wanted to keep something
00:10:19.740 in the headlines continually,
00:10:21.800 think about the Watergate scandal, right?
00:10:24.560 The three major networks and newspapers
00:10:26.260 had to be on that day after day after day.
00:10:29.120 That's how you kept something
00:10:30.920 in the public consciousness.
00:10:32.620 These days, with the rise of the internet,
00:10:34.280 you can take an event from 1,000 years ago
00:10:36.380 or 500 years ago,
00:10:37.920 and you read about it
00:10:39.180 or someone creates a video about it,
00:10:40.600 and it seems real today,
00:10:41.940 and you feel bad for the victims,
00:10:43.600 as you should.
00:10:44.660 But here's the thing.
00:10:45.840 The victims and the oppressors are long dead.
00:10:48.580 And if you bring that into the present
00:10:49.860 and you make simplistic connections,
00:10:51.740 as people do,
00:10:52.380 and say,
00:10:52.980 well, what happened 150 years ago
00:10:54.740 affects outcomes today,
00:10:56.480 as people often do.
00:10:57.480 Bill Clinton once blamed 9-11
00:10:59.520 partly on the Crusades.
00:11:01.520 But of course,
00:11:02.040 the Crusades didn't exist in isolation.
00:11:04.140 You know,
00:11:04.300 there was the Moors attacking the Christians,
00:11:06.280 the Christians attacking the Moors,
00:11:07.440 the Crusades came in that chain of things.
00:11:10.860 But Bill Clinton was simplistic.
00:11:12.740 It was ridiculous.
00:11:14.060 The Crusades had been forgotten
00:11:15.480 by the mid-19th century
00:11:16.680 until anti-colonialists brought it up again
00:11:18.880 in the mid-19th century,
00:11:20.600 you know,
00:11:21.060 as one way to get rid of colonialists.
00:11:23.440 So, you know,
00:11:25.960 the simplistic connection
00:11:27.380 of terrible events in history
00:11:28.840 that somehow affect us
00:11:30.300 yet today,
00:11:32.360 and the problem is
00:11:34.100 that's really not sensible.
00:11:36.120 And the left-right divide,
00:11:37.260 I don't think,
00:11:37.640 actually matters either.
00:11:38.980 Not only do the political parties
00:11:40.380 not matter,
00:11:41.080 I'm not sure left-right
00:11:42.100 is a good way to view things
00:11:43.840 in most cases.
00:11:44.820 The left-right continuum
00:11:45.840 kind of came up
00:11:46.640 because of the French Revolution.
00:11:48.260 You know,
00:11:48.320 the conservatives were on the right,
00:11:49.480 the revolutionaries were on the left.
00:11:51.620 That's how this concept came up.
00:11:53.940 But fundamentally,
00:11:55.040 the problem in human history,
00:11:56.300 I would argue,
00:11:57.020 there's a couple of things.
00:11:58.060 One,
00:11:58.760 people are always tribal,
00:12:00.820 and it took a lot
00:12:01.800 to get them away
00:12:02.460 from being tribal
00:12:03.220 based on color
00:12:04.200 or ethnicity or birth
00:12:05.440 and get them to be tribal
00:12:07.420 about good ideas, right?
00:12:08.820 Open markets,
00:12:10.080 the worth of the individual,
00:12:11.780 the equality,
00:12:12.520 the moral equality
00:12:13.300 of the individual,
00:12:14.160 which I think is,
00:12:15.200 you know,
00:12:15.440 I think it's quite clear
00:12:16.360 that came from a monotheistic,
00:12:18.040 you know,
00:12:18.260 view and Judaism
00:12:19.440 and Christianity in particular.
00:12:21.780 These idea developments in history,
00:12:23.820 we got people away
00:12:24.640 from being tribal
00:12:25.820 about things
00:12:26.760 that are not changeable
00:12:27.560 to hopefully being tribal
00:12:29.100 about good ideas, right?
00:12:30.280 It's why people in Hong Kong today
00:12:31.780 will still reference
00:12:32.920 the British Empire,
00:12:34.000 British colonial period
00:12:34.880 positively
00:12:35.400 because of the freedom
00:12:36.680 that they were given
00:12:37.460 vis-a-vis now
00:12:38.120 the regime in Beijing.
00:12:39.520 So there's a number
00:12:40.160 of things happening.
00:12:41.600 But basically,
00:12:42.640 I think the people attacking history
00:12:44.640 in one sense are utopian.
00:12:45.960 I think they're anti-history.
00:12:47.900 Sorry,
00:12:48.420 they're anti-idea
00:12:50.020 and they're anti-informed history.
00:12:52.960 And social media
00:12:53.500 just exacerbates that
00:12:54.840 and exacerbates the divisions.
00:12:56.800 So I think somehow
00:12:57.560 you need to get people
00:12:58.400 to, again,
00:12:59.000 think about what are good ideas.
00:13:01.060 You know,
00:13:01.320 if you're Indian,
00:13:02.200 for example,
00:13:02.860 yes,
00:13:03.100 of course you didn't want
00:13:03.900 to be ruled by the British,
00:13:04.980 but it's a reality of history.
00:13:06.620 But you can take
00:13:07.160 the English language,
00:13:08.120 you can take the fact
00:13:08.900 that British abolished satay
00:13:10.080 as good things
00:13:11.200 from the British Empire
00:13:12.480 and leave the rest.
00:13:14.020 But again,
00:13:14.780 people are not making
00:13:15.500 distinctions these days.
00:13:16.580 So there's a number
00:13:17.700 of things going on,
00:13:18.400 but I do think
00:13:18.820 social media
00:13:19.360 probably exacerbates
00:13:20.660 the potential
00:13:21.400 to be tribal
00:13:22.980 in the very old-fashioned
00:13:24.400 negative sense.
00:13:25.620 Well,
00:13:25.760 and I think that's
00:13:26.840 an important dynamic
00:13:28.000 of this
00:13:28.540 as far as the how
00:13:29.860 and perhaps the why.
00:13:31.320 Because,
00:13:31.940 you know,
00:13:32.240 my intention was to focus
00:13:33.580 on the Canadian history,
00:13:34.560 but we have a sociologist
00:13:36.120 and a psychologist
00:13:36.880 on the panel,
00:13:37.600 so we can perhaps
00:13:38.780 dig into some of the
00:13:39.720 pathologies of this
00:13:41.180 a little bit.
00:13:41.780 And I'll ask you,
00:13:42.800 Lynn,
00:13:43.020 where you think
00:13:44.200 the motivation is
00:13:46.040 behind a lot of this
00:13:47.400 cancellation?
00:13:48.560 Because I think
00:13:49.120 some of it is not
00:13:50.320 coming from,
00:13:51.420 in fact,
00:13:51.820 most of it,
00:13:52.320 I would argue,
00:13:53.040 is probably not coming
00:13:53.960 from people with
00:13:54.620 deep-seated,
00:13:55.760 principled views
00:13:56.960 of history,
00:13:57.700 as you've indicated,
00:13:59.200 and understandings
00:14:00.020 of history.
00:14:00.420 I think a lot of it
00:14:01.060 is bandwagoning,
00:14:02.020 where people see
00:14:02.960 someone else said
00:14:03.780 something bad
00:14:04.440 about Ryerson,
00:14:05.280 so,
00:14:05.860 well,
00:14:06.240 I like them,
00:14:07.000 so if they don't
00:14:07.520 like Ryerson,
00:14:08.260 then I must not
00:14:08.980 like Ryerson.
00:14:09.780 And no one's really
00:14:10.560 critically evaluating
00:14:11.680 at any step of this
00:14:13.220 process why we have
00:14:14.240 to cancel this figure.
00:14:15.360 And even the
00:14:15.900 Canadian flag,
00:14:16.720 I mean,
00:14:17.240 lowering the Canadian
00:14:18.060 flag to half-mast
00:14:19.220 for,
00:14:20.320 again,
00:14:20.560 five months,
00:14:21.060 I think it was,
00:14:21.840 was a profoundly
00:14:22.980 damaging symbol
00:14:24.900 and dangerous precedent,
00:14:26.740 I believe.
00:14:27.580 But if you're someone
00:14:28.720 that is motivated
00:14:30.880 to do that,
00:14:32.160 it's amazing how
00:14:33.320 inconsequential a gesture
00:14:34.920 it really is.
00:14:35.940 You're saying,
00:14:36.800 you know,
00:14:37.020 we as a country
00:14:37.820 are perpetuating
00:14:39.440 ongoing genocide,
00:14:40.280 and all we're going
00:14:41.160 to do is lower
00:14:41.640 the flag.
00:14:42.140 Like,
00:14:42.320 in that case,
00:14:42.980 it's not actually
00:14:43.620 achieving anything
00:14:44.380 for them.
00:14:45.480 So I'll ask you
00:14:46.340 where you think
00:14:47.400 this is coming from
00:14:48.440 because I do not
00:14:49.660 believe,
00:14:50.520 and you may disagree,
00:14:51.620 that there is this
00:14:52.900 deep intellectual
00:14:54.840 process that's behind
00:14:56.880 a lot of these
00:14:57.900 efforts.
00:15:00.040 Well,
00:15:00.680 there certainly
00:15:01.160 isn't a deep
00:15:01.880 intellectual process
00:15:02.820 or even elementary
00:15:03.920 fact-finding.
00:15:05.660 I would say
00:15:06.280 presentism is a big
00:15:07.780 problem.
00:15:08.160 There's also
00:15:08.920 one-personism
00:15:09.960 or culprit-ism,
00:15:11.820 presentism.
00:15:12.780 People think
00:15:13.800 of the past
00:15:14.840 in terms of today.
00:15:16.920 For example,
00:15:17.820 Sir John A.
00:15:18.420 Macdonald was racist,
00:15:19.800 no doubt about it.
00:15:20.780 Plenty of things
00:15:21.360 were racist
00:15:21.860 that he said,
00:15:23.820 and he was quite
00:15:25.220 typical of his time.
00:15:26.640 But that's 1885
00:15:28.080 that I'm particularly
00:15:29.180 talking about
00:15:29.880 Chinese exclusion.
00:15:31.640 Well,
00:15:32.340 the Universal
00:15:33.780 Declaration of Human Rights
00:15:35.160 is 1948
00:15:36.500 after World War II.
00:15:38.620 So between
00:15:39.260 1885,
00:15:40.300 you had World War I,
00:15:41.760 you have Woodrow
00:15:42.180 Wilson's 14 points,
00:15:44.040 you have World War II,
00:15:45.560 you have the Holocaust,
00:15:47.040 and racism
00:15:47.980 seems like a very
00:15:49.000 bad idea then.
00:15:50.560 And people
00:15:51.000 got onto it.
00:15:51.980 Incidentally,
00:15:52.680 Tommy Douglas'
00:15:53.420 Bill of Rights
00:15:53.980 was 1947,
00:15:55.420 even a year before
00:15:56.220 the Universal
00:15:57.060 Declaration
00:15:57.740 of Human Rights,
00:15:59.060 and Dietrich Baker
00:15:59.880 got in
00:16:00.400 in 1960.
00:16:02.180 But those were
00:16:02.760 things much later.
00:16:03.720 What are people
00:16:04.660 going to say now?
00:16:06.400 Yeah,
00:16:07.120 and I think
00:16:07.700 you raise
00:16:08.380 an important point there.
00:16:09.660 And I mean,
00:16:10.040 gay marriage
00:16:10.540 is an interesting one
00:16:11.660 in Canada
00:16:12.700 because 20 years ago,
00:16:15.540 gay marriage
00:16:16.500 was kept illegal
00:16:18.680 by a vote
00:16:19.720 that involved
00:16:20.380 pretty much
00:16:20.940 all parties
00:16:21.960 in Parliament.
00:16:22.940 And now,
00:16:23.940 you wouldn't find
00:16:24.820 a single party
00:16:25.900 whose members
00:16:26.640 would vote as a bloc
00:16:27.720 in the same way.
00:16:29.620 So things do change,
00:16:30.880 perspectives do change,
00:16:32.160 and I'll go back
00:16:34.220 to the pathology
00:16:35.280 aspect of it
00:16:36.020 for a moment,
00:16:36.600 Rima.
00:16:36.760 I know you're
00:16:37.200 a psychologist
00:16:37.900 and when you see
00:16:39.040 people that have
00:16:40.680 this profound level
00:16:41.780 of,
00:16:43.000 I mean,
00:16:43.340 I don't know
00:16:43.660 if guilt is the best way,
00:16:45.060 this idea of national guilt
00:16:46.420 or national shame,
00:16:47.840 what drives that?
00:16:51.060 Very interesting.
00:16:52.380 It's very hard
00:16:52.940 to answer that question
00:16:53.980 because there are
00:16:55.180 so many factors.
00:16:56.540 There's the guilt
00:16:57.340 that when we're looking
00:16:58.300 at that past
00:16:59.140 and stories
00:17:00.660 that disturb people,
00:17:02.480 obviously,
00:17:03.360 they feel
00:17:04.000 they are in grief somehow
00:17:06.460 or maybe they thought
00:17:08.800 their country was perfect
00:17:09.980 and they are discovering
00:17:10.800 that it's like
00:17:11.580 all countries
00:17:12.420 in the world,
00:17:13.640 it's not.
00:17:14.560 So I think
00:17:15.220 maybe it's good
00:17:16.260 to remember
00:17:16.760 that we can have
00:17:17.720 mixed feelings,
00:17:20.020 especially in a grief journey
00:17:22.880 or a growth journey.
00:17:24.360 We can have
00:17:24.860 two contradictory ideas
00:17:26.280 at the same time.
00:17:27.720 We can see
00:17:28.520 someone has done
00:17:29.600 some goodness
00:17:30.360 but someone
00:17:31.080 could be also
00:17:32.200 has done
00:17:33.420 some bad things
00:17:34.360 at the same time
00:17:35.160 willingly or not
00:17:36.100 or depending on the context.
00:17:37.980 So the nuance
00:17:38.700 is missing
00:17:39.740 and I think
00:17:40.820 the book,
00:17:42.080 Dr. Merkel's book
00:17:43.320 is Mark's book,
00:17:44.720 that book is amazing
00:17:45.820 for the nuances.
00:17:46.580 What I learned
00:17:47.020 from each chapter,
00:17:48.100 especially your chapter,
00:17:49.740 and I didn't know
00:17:51.020 those details myself.
00:17:53.400 Well,
00:17:54.000 to go back
00:17:54.540 to the identity
00:17:55.120 politics aspect,
00:17:56.280 Rima,
00:17:56.760 one of the things
00:17:57.380 that is so damaging
00:17:58.500 about a lot of these
00:17:59.580 political discussions
00:18:00.840 is that they're really
00:18:01.800 aiming to divide.
00:18:03.420 I mean,
00:18:03.700 people,
00:18:04.140 to Lynn's point,
00:18:04.980 are not looking
00:18:05.500 to have an honest
00:18:07.100 discussion about this
00:18:08.160 and say,
00:18:08.540 how do we contextualize history?
00:18:10.260 How do we understand it?
00:18:11.360 What do we make of it?
00:18:12.440 What's the proper role
00:18:13.780 of us as historians,
00:18:15.680 as Canadians,
00:18:16.520 whatever the case is?
00:18:17.700 It's about pitting
00:18:18.660 people against each other
00:18:19.840 and pitting groups
00:18:20.520 against each other
00:18:21.260 and that is really what,
00:18:22.540 in my conceptualization
00:18:24.120 of it anyway,
00:18:24.860 identity politics
00:18:25.640 is all about.
00:18:27.380 I totally agree.
00:18:28.900 It is like,
00:18:31.420 we have been divided
00:18:32.420 now in Canada
00:18:33.280 into groups
00:18:34.080 and subgroups
00:18:35.060 and acronyms
00:18:35.940 and we,
00:18:36.340 it's at the same time
00:18:39.420 almost funny
00:18:40.540 because let's say myself,
00:18:42.760 I should fit that acronym
00:18:43.920 of BIPOC,
00:18:45.380 I think it's called
00:18:46.240 or whatever acronym,
00:18:47.300 you know,
00:18:47.540 the whole long thing,
00:18:48.880 black people of color,
00:18:50.200 I don't know
00:18:50.500 what's my color actually.
00:18:52.460 So it doesn't make any sense
00:18:54.800 how can someone
00:18:55.580 with the same skin color
00:18:56.780 as myself
00:18:57.520 from Chicoutimi
00:18:58.680 be kind of similar
00:18:59.980 to someone from Alberta.
00:19:01.200 Like the language
00:19:01.720 is not the same,
00:19:02.720 the experience
00:19:03.260 is not the same.
00:19:04.320 We are richer than that.
00:19:06.140 We are human beings.
00:19:07.700 Each person has a combination
00:19:09.940 of all the experiences
00:19:11.580 and then the parts
00:19:13.300 of the identities
00:19:14.220 in one person
00:19:15.620 and we are dismissing that
00:19:18.940 and that's sad.
00:19:22.060 Now you're not BIPOC, Mark,
00:19:23.760 so we're not allowed
00:19:24.480 to take your opinion
00:19:26.320 at the weight
00:19:27.100 of everyone else here
00:19:27.880 but I'll ask you about that
00:19:29.840 in the realm
00:19:31.060 of the Canadian story
00:19:32.180 because Canada
00:19:32.900 does not get enough credit
00:19:34.220 for how unique it is
00:19:36.660 as a national project.
00:19:38.260 This idea of a bi-national,
00:19:40.440 a bi-cultural country
00:19:41.760 that despite all of the tensions
00:19:44.340 in the last 150 some odd years
00:19:47.300 has survived
00:19:48.680 is not insignificant
00:19:51.580 and again,
00:19:52.820 John A. MacDonald
00:19:53.500 who Lynn rightly acknowledged
00:19:55.400 has skeletons in his closet
00:19:57.120 did something
00:19:58.760 that was at the time
00:20:00.060 very unlikely
00:20:00.920 and he held his country
00:20:01.800 together truly
00:20:02.560 with I think
00:20:03.280 like duct tape and straws
00:20:04.800 because Confederation
00:20:06.080 was very touch and go
00:20:07.460 for years up to it
00:20:09.080 and even after it
00:20:10.180 and the idea
00:20:12.020 of celebrating
00:20:12.980 the survival of Canada
00:20:14.480 over the years
00:20:15.560 is something
00:20:16.240 that I don't feel
00:20:16.940 happens enough.
00:20:19.040 Well, certainly not anymore
00:20:20.380 and one of the reasons
00:20:22.660 we wrote the 1867 project
00:20:24.380 and Lynn contributed
00:20:25.220 and Rima contributed
00:20:26.040 and so did 17 other people
00:20:27.460 is to try and add
00:20:28.660 some nuance to history
00:20:29.780 which we hope
00:20:30.960 would give people
00:20:32.080 some modesty
00:20:34.600 so to speak
00:20:35.260 that make outrageous claims.
00:20:37.520 So let me give you
00:20:38.180 a clear example
00:20:39.000 and again,
00:20:40.060 part of this goes back
00:20:40.880 to what you just mentioned
00:20:42.620 which is that yes,
00:20:44.480 it was a complicated project
00:20:46.160 to put Canada together
00:20:47.240 in the first place.
00:20:48.040 There were divisions then.
00:20:48.920 They were different than today.
00:20:50.660 There might have been
00:20:51.180 between high Anglicans
00:20:52.340 and Methodists
00:20:52.960 for example,
00:20:53.700 right?
00:20:53.880 On the Protestant side.
00:20:55.320 Catholics were seen
00:20:56.080 as not worthy
00:20:56.720 of joining the Canadian project
00:20:58.000 because they were considered
00:20:59.060 illiberal, right?
00:21:00.500 They thought,
00:21:01.240 you know,
00:21:01.740 Protestants of the 19th century
00:21:03.440 thought Catholics
00:21:04.380 would take the orders
00:21:05.120 from Rome, right?
00:21:06.280 So Protestants were suspicious.
00:21:07.960 I mean,
00:21:08.220 there were tensions
00:21:08.940 back then and divisions
00:21:09.980 but what managed
00:21:11.360 to overcome them again
00:21:12.340 was this notion
00:21:12.980 of the worth
00:21:13.480 of the individual.
00:21:14.540 That seed was there
00:21:15.680 in the 19th century
00:21:16.620 and part of the problem
00:21:19.240 is, you know,
00:21:19.680 again,
00:21:19.920 we divide into tribal,
00:21:21.680 you know,
00:21:22.040 we divvy off into tribes
00:21:24.480 maybe almost naturally
00:21:25.880 human history
00:21:26.500 and you have to consciously
00:21:27.960 think I'm going to look
00:21:28.940 at the person here
00:21:29.760 especially in law
00:21:30.680 and policy
00:21:31.340 as an individual
00:21:33.060 in law and policy.
00:21:34.500 Governments have to do that
00:21:35.580 but look,
00:21:37.820 the other way
00:21:38.480 to approach this
00:21:39.220 is to tell stories
00:21:40.140 to remind people of history
00:21:41.160 and hope it wakes them up.
00:21:42.580 Let me give you
00:21:42.940 a clear example
00:21:43.780 because the problem
00:21:44.740 in, again,
00:21:46.040 because of this tribalism
00:21:47.080 we just think,
00:21:48.160 you know,
00:21:48.260 if we're at the top
00:21:48.860 of the heap so to speak
00:21:49.680 or people favor us today
00:21:51.000 then we must be perfect.
00:21:53.020 If you go back
00:21:53.520 to the 1950s
00:21:54.540 and before,
00:21:55.420 if you look at
00:21:55.900 John Wayne movies
00:21:56.700 and others,
00:21:57.620 I think arguably
00:21:58.400 there is a fair amount
00:21:59.500 of racism there
00:22:00.200 and racist assumptions
00:22:01.100 or, you know,
00:22:01.960 the indigenous person
00:22:02.920 is always, you know,
00:22:04.100 subservient to the,
00:22:05.240 you know,
00:22:05.440 heroic white guy.
00:22:06.720 I think fairly enough
00:22:08.020 if you're indigenous
00:22:08.680 and you look at that
00:22:09.320 and you go,
00:22:09.700 good grief,
00:22:10.220 what was happening
00:22:10.840 back then?
00:22:11.620 But again,
00:22:11.940 that was back then.
00:22:13.920 Today,
00:22:14.680 you can flip it over
00:22:15.780 where people can romanticize
00:22:17.140 indigenous culture
00:22:18.060 and frankly,
00:22:19.640 both sides,
00:22:20.540 if I can put it that way,
00:22:21.380 it's not a left-right thing,
00:22:22.500 it's a tribal thing.
00:22:23.840 Both sides,
00:22:24.820 you know,
00:22:25.160 missed the point
00:22:26.000 which Alexander Solzhenitsyn,
00:22:27.860 the famous Soviet dissident,
00:22:29.960 talked about
00:22:30.940 or wrote about
00:22:31.500 in the Gulag Archipelago.
00:22:32.960 When he was a prisoner
00:22:33.880 in the Gulag,
00:22:35.140 there were people then
00:22:36.300 as before
00:22:37.200 that looked at other groups
00:22:39.120 and said,
00:22:39.540 well,
00:22:39.640 if we get rid of them,
00:22:40.920 they're the problem,
00:22:41.920 we'll have a good society.
00:22:43.620 And Solzhenitsyn wisely understood
00:22:45.520 and articulated this point.
00:22:47.640 The dividing line
00:22:48.660 between good and evil
00:22:49.500 runs through every human heart.
00:22:50.940 If you understand that
00:22:52.460 and you understand
00:22:53.020 the dangers of tribalism,
00:22:54.360 at least based on
00:22:55.040 unchangeable characteristics
00:22:56.240 as opposed to ideas,
00:22:57.360 but even perhaps ideas,
00:22:58.900 the Nazis had bad ideas
00:23:00.200 and plenty of people
00:23:00.880 were tribal about that.
00:23:02.140 But if you understand
00:23:03.100 Solzhenitsyn's point,
00:23:04.620 then it should bring
00:23:05.220 a bit of modesty.
00:23:06.280 But then you also have to be honest
00:23:07.420 about your own,
00:23:08.480 so to speak, history.
00:23:09.700 And again,
00:23:09.960 I don't think we have
00:23:11.000 to attach ourselves
00:23:11.880 to one's own ethnic history.
00:23:13.940 My background is German.
00:23:15.340 I wouldn't take anything
00:23:16.140 from German's governance
00:23:17.360 over the last two centuries
00:23:18.720 or five centuries.
00:23:19.960 I much prefer
00:23:20.540 the Anglosphere model
00:23:21.600 of the focus on the individual
00:23:22.840 and the rule of law
00:23:23.760 and free markets
00:23:24.820 and free expression
00:23:25.820 and so forth.
00:23:26.920 So you can detach yourself
00:23:28.480 from your ethnic
00:23:29.200 or colored history.
00:23:30.820 You know,
00:23:30.960 the color of your skin
00:23:32.880 and the history
00:23:33.300 that some people
00:23:34.060 will attribute to that
00:23:35.420 as if everyone
00:23:36.100 had the same history.
00:23:38.280 But it also helps out
00:23:39.660 to bring other stories.
00:23:40.960 One of my favorite stories
00:23:42.400 about mid-century
00:23:43.720 British Columbia
00:23:44.400 from the 19th century
00:23:45.480 is how 30 black Californians
00:23:47.480 moved to Victoria in 1858.
00:23:49.300 And remember that California
00:23:50.860 at this point
00:23:51.560 is very prejudiced.
00:23:52.780 It's not part of the South,
00:23:53.880 but it might as well be.
00:23:55.360 American states,
00:23:56.320 even in the North
00:23:57.100 and even in the West,
00:23:58.100 are very prejudiced
00:23:59.000 against black Americans.
00:24:01.000 30 black Americans
00:24:02.000 move up to Victoria.
00:24:03.240 They are welcomed
00:24:03.880 by the Archbishop of Victoria.
00:24:06.280 They are welcomed
00:24:06.940 by Governor James Douglas.
00:24:08.740 And they're able
00:24:10.360 to become citizens
00:24:11.100 after two years.
00:24:12.080 They can run for city council,
00:24:13.160 for the school board.
00:24:14.360 They encounter some prejudice.
00:24:15.380 It happens to be up island
00:24:17.140 from an indigenous
00:24:18.540 First Nation,
00:24:19.700 the Cowichan.
00:24:20.860 Now I say that,
00:24:22.300 and the indigenous
00:24:23.420 in British Columbia
00:24:24.040 had slaves
00:24:24.600 in the late 19th century,
00:24:26.700 which the British colonials
00:24:27.940 were trying to abolish
00:24:29.000 the practice of slavery.
00:24:30.500 I say that because,
00:24:31.900 again,
00:24:32.200 back to Alexander Solzhenitsyn,
00:24:34.020 the dividing line
00:24:34.840 between good and evil
00:24:35.600 is not between
00:24:36.440 your tribe
00:24:38.160 and my tribe.
00:24:39.100 It's, again,
00:24:39.620 in every human heart
00:24:40.580 and every human civilization
00:24:41.980 has a mixture
00:24:42.880 of both usually.
00:24:43.640 And so if you recognize that,
00:24:45.820 then you become more modest.
00:24:47.360 Whites should have been
00:24:48.000 more modest
00:24:48.660 about
00:24:49.520 and recognize
00:24:51.960 their own evil
00:24:52.840 in racism
00:24:53.620 before they did.
00:24:55.440 And in, again,
00:24:56.360 movies of the 1940s
00:24:57.520 and 1950s
00:24:58.260 and before.
00:25:00.260 You know,
00:25:00.480 but I think there's
00:25:01.060 a temptation today
00:25:02.400 because of,
00:25:03.200 you know,
00:25:03.340 the past abuse
00:25:04.060 of indigenous peoples
00:25:04.960 to now romanticize
00:25:05.940 indigenous history,
00:25:06.740 which overlooks the Aztecs
00:25:08.120 or overlooks
00:25:08.840 indigenous slavery.
00:25:09.980 And they only bring up
00:25:10.760 these points
00:25:11.200 not to beat up
00:25:11.940 on indigenous history.
00:25:13.640 But to simply say,
00:25:14.580 again,
00:25:15.300 everyone is part
00:25:16.080 of the same human project.
00:25:17.500 And if you make the mistake
00:25:18.560 of thinking
00:25:19.040 your group,
00:25:20.300 if only you ran things,
00:25:22.140 you know,
00:25:23.340 that's the temptation
00:25:24.240 of power.
00:25:25.360 And I got to tell you,
00:25:27.360 the temptation of power,
00:25:28.720 you know,
00:25:29.740 is intoxicating,
00:25:30.980 but it makes you think
00:25:31.840 you're perfect.
00:25:32.860 None of us are.
00:25:33.840 There is a difference
00:25:34.880 between recognizing
00:25:36.920 history
00:25:37.820 and historic figures
00:25:38.980 and venerating
00:25:40.200 historic figures.
00:25:41.840 And this is often,
00:25:42.780 I find,
00:25:43.400 where the debate
00:25:43.940 gets a little bit tricky
00:25:45.900 because it's one thing
00:25:47.240 to say,
00:25:47.720 yes,
00:25:47.980 we are not going
00:25:48.720 to cancel this person.
00:25:49.840 We're not going
00:25:50.140 to rip them out
00:25:50.600 of the history books,
00:25:51.300 but we'll talk about
00:25:52.840 the bad and the good.
00:25:53.800 And, you know,
00:25:54.220 we'll cast everyone
00:25:55.280 as a complicated figure
00:25:57.040 with a dark side
00:25:57.940 and a bright side.
00:25:59.040 And I'll ask you
00:26:00.160 about this, Lynn.
00:26:00.900 I mean,
00:26:01.100 there are lots of examples
00:26:02.120 of this.
00:26:02.500 You mentioned
00:26:02.840 Tommy Douglas earlier.
00:26:04.020 He once called
00:26:04.980 homosexuality
00:26:05.980 a mental illness,
00:26:07.100 but again,
00:26:07.640 was the father
00:26:08.260 of Medicare,
00:26:09.000 which has been
00:26:09.460 a very central part
00:26:10.760 of Canadian identity
00:26:11.920 for a lot of people.
00:26:13.400 And you look at
00:26:14.520 Nellie McClung,
00:26:15.480 you know,
00:26:15.680 one of the most prominent,
00:26:16.620 the most prominent
00:26:17.260 suffragette in Canada,
00:26:19.280 and she was an advocate
00:26:20.720 for eugenics.
00:26:21.540 So these are not
00:26:22.800 unknown things.
00:26:25.140 You could find it
00:26:25.920 with everyone,
00:26:26.500 whether you want
00:26:27.100 to talk about
00:26:27.620 John A. MacDonald,
00:26:28.760 Winston Churchill,
00:26:30.220 Mahatma Gandhi,
00:26:31.120 and so on.
00:26:32.320 So how do you think,
00:26:34.740 or what is the lens
00:26:35.880 you think we need
00:26:36.660 to take to these figures
00:26:37.740 where,
00:26:38.460 do you think we should
00:26:39.220 just say,
00:26:40.720 you know what,
00:26:41.280 the good outweighs
00:26:42.060 the bad,
00:26:42.500 we're going to celebrate them?
00:26:43.880 Or do you think
00:26:44.640 we need to approach
00:26:45.520 with a bit of a less
00:26:46.720 celebratory attitude
00:26:48.740 to these people,
00:26:49.440 even if they had
00:26:50.120 tremendous achievements?
00:26:53.640 I think we have to
00:26:55.320 take each one
00:26:56.740 into account
00:26:57.420 on their merits
00:26:58.500 and demerits.
00:27:00.360 Now,
00:27:00.580 I particularly worked
00:27:01.740 on Ryerson
00:27:02.420 and to some extent
00:27:03.980 on Henry Dundas,
00:27:05.660 and they are both people
00:27:06.860 for whom
00:27:08.200 the current record
00:27:09.580 is dead wrong.
00:27:11.140 They got it
00:27:11.640 exactly the opposite
00:27:12.980 in the case of Ryerson.
00:27:14.700 He was a friend
00:27:15.340 of Indigenous people.
00:27:16.400 He learned to speak
00:27:16.980 Ojibwe.
00:27:17.680 He was named a brother
00:27:18.680 and given an Ojibwe name,
00:27:20.760 and yet she is treated
00:27:21.780 as the architect
00:27:23.340 of the residential
00:27:24.740 school system.
00:27:25.660 He was branded that way,
00:27:27.080 and a plaque
00:27:28.260 is put up
00:27:28.720 next to a statue
00:27:29.460 supposedly
00:27:30.420 to contextualize
00:27:32.320 what he did.
00:27:33.660 It didn't contextualize.
00:27:35.240 It added fresh accusations
00:27:38.500 and did an extraordinary
00:27:40.700 thing of argument
00:27:41.780 by slicing,
00:27:43.260 and so put next to him
00:27:44.640 the horrible things
00:27:45.720 that happened
00:27:46.060 in residential schools
00:27:46.980 as if he were
00:27:47.700 responsible for them,
00:27:48.880 and that's true
00:27:50.300 for Henry Dundas.
00:27:51.460 It's a current issue
00:27:52.260 in Toronto
00:27:52.760 because City Council
00:27:53.960 a couple of years ago
00:27:55.220 voted to get rid
00:27:56.120 of the Dundas name
00:27:57.160 on the grounds
00:27:57.940 that he delayed
00:27:58.700 the abolition of slavery,
00:27:59.920 which he did not do.
00:28:01.040 He was a committed
00:28:01.900 and effective abolitionist
00:28:03.640 and is going to go back
00:28:05.300 to City Council.
00:28:07.280 There's a mayor's race
00:28:08.220 on and so forth,
00:28:09.660 and yet he,
00:28:10.980 at his merits
00:28:11.820 as an abolitionist,
00:28:12.920 are very strong.
00:28:14.020 He got rid,
00:28:14.760 as a lawyer,
00:28:15.740 got rid of slavery
00:28:16.540 in Scotland
00:28:17.160 by arguing a case
00:28:18.340 before the law lords
00:28:19.360 of a runaway slave.
00:28:21.180 So he did excellent things,
00:28:23.120 and the arguments
00:28:24.400 used against him
00:28:25.400 of all for delaying
00:28:27.000 the abolition,
00:28:27.880 people don't make
00:28:28.660 the distinction
00:28:29.160 between a motion
00:28:30.220 in the House of Commons
00:28:31.440 and getting a bill through.
00:28:32.880 You don't have a law
00:28:33.900 to do anything
00:28:34.660 until it goes
00:28:35.760 through the House of Lords
00:28:36.880 as well.
00:28:37.760 So just the level
00:28:39.540 of incompetence
00:28:41.540 on this
00:28:42.040 is really quite shocking.
00:28:43.820 I think you have
00:28:44.520 to look at them
00:28:45.140 one at a time.
00:28:46.040 Sir John A. Macdonald,
00:28:47.580 he wasn't racist,
00:28:48.740 but it can be contextualized.
00:28:50.880 You look at the context
00:28:52.140 and you look at the time,
00:28:53.780 that's quite fair.
00:28:54.940 He made enormous
00:28:56.000 contributions
00:28:58.440 to getting French and English,
00:29:00.540 Francophone and Anglicophone
00:29:01.340 together,
00:29:01.980 and Catholic and Protestant.
00:29:03.520 Just an enormous
00:29:04.480 contribution there.
00:29:06.260 And so you really
00:29:07.500 have to look at them
00:29:08.500 case by case.
00:29:10.000 I know you've
00:29:11.200 gone through this
00:29:12.140 in your own ordeal,
00:29:13.840 Rima,
00:29:14.120 which at True North
00:29:15.200 we've covered
00:29:15.940 and we don't have time
00:29:17.440 to rehash it in full here.
00:29:18.820 But the one thing
00:29:19.380 that you know
00:29:20.240 and we can observe here
00:29:21.320 is that once
00:29:22.000 the mob
00:29:23.200 or the class
00:29:24.260 that is driving the mob
00:29:25.860 has decided
00:29:26.640 that someone
00:29:27.280 is a bad person,
00:29:29.200 the facts
00:29:29.760 don't seem to matter.
00:29:30.940 And you see exactly
00:29:32.040 what Lynn
00:29:32.440 just described there.
00:29:33.380 Once we've decided
00:29:34.240 that this is our objective,
00:29:36.100 we'll get there
00:29:36.800 however we want
00:29:37.560 to get there.
00:29:41.100 Yes.
00:29:41.780 Did I miss the question?
00:29:43.080 Well, I didn't really ask one
00:29:45.000 but I'll add a question there
00:29:47.540 which is just
00:29:48.440 how do we combat that?
00:29:50.440 I mean,
00:29:50.640 how do you make
00:29:52.200 an assertion of truth
00:29:54.160 when there are
00:29:55.680 so many people
00:29:56.420 that don't seem
00:29:57.040 to care about truth
00:29:58.360 in these discussions?
00:29:59.980 I think coming back
00:30:01.200 to the start
00:30:01.980 of our conversation
00:30:03.040 with the facts
00:30:04.040 that Dr. McDonough
00:30:05.080 or Lynn said
00:30:05.960 that the facts
00:30:07.140 are important
00:30:08.000 the truth
00:30:09.160 seeking the truth
00:30:10.480 we are scientists
00:30:11.400 we do research
00:30:13.640 we have hypotheses
00:30:15.440 we want to test them
00:30:16.480 so coming back
00:30:18.200 to facts
00:30:19.140 but also
00:30:19.960 denouncing
00:30:21.380 censorship
00:30:22.320 when it's
00:30:23.180 toward anyone
00:30:24.300 people we don't
00:30:25.340 agree with
00:30:26.060 before
00:30:26.620 those whom we agree
00:30:27.940 with as a principle
00:30:29.040 same thing
00:30:29.980 for violence
00:30:30.760 so like
00:30:31.520 status
00:30:32.580 being torn down
00:30:35.220 that's a no-no
00:30:36.400 that's vandalism
00:30:37.780 or
00:30:38.540 buildings
00:30:39.780 like churches
00:30:40.420 not any building
00:30:41.360 it's a church
00:30:42.080 some people escaped
00:30:43.960 I remember a story
00:30:44.840 in Canada
00:30:45.300 escaped from Egypt
00:30:46.420 I think
00:30:46.980 a Coptic church
00:30:48.240 and to see their church
00:30:49.660 here in Canada
00:30:50.360 being vandalized
00:30:52.200 again
00:30:53.120 the emotions
00:30:53.920 and again
00:30:54.740 the guilt
00:30:56.080 and all this
00:30:56.940 we understand that
00:30:58.360 but
00:30:59.020 some things
00:31:00.300 are just
00:31:02.080 unacceptable
00:31:03.040 and we
00:31:04.000 should avoid
00:31:05.500 the double standards
00:31:06.500 as much as possible
00:31:08.180 I think
00:31:09.940 that's a very
00:31:11.220 very eloquent way
00:31:12.480 of putting it
00:31:13.480 because it is
00:31:14.340 Canada Day tomorrow
00:31:15.500 or again
00:31:16.320 Dominion Day
00:31:16.920 I have to just
00:31:17.840 always stick that in
00:31:18.680 anytime I say
00:31:19.280 Canada Day
00:31:19.880 I am going to ask
00:31:21.540 everyone on the panel
00:31:22.900 a question
00:31:23.660 which will be easier
00:31:24.680 for the latter two
00:31:25.960 because you'll have
00:31:26.800 a couple of moments
00:31:27.540 to think about it here
00:31:28.200 we'll start with you Mark
00:31:29.100 what's one thing
00:31:30.260 you absolutely
00:31:31.120 love about this country
00:31:32.380 well I love
00:31:34.980 I love its natural
00:31:36.220 beauty
00:31:36.780 so I live near
00:31:37.780 the Rocky Mountains
00:31:38.520 and for whatever
00:31:39.940 reason
00:31:40.320 there's a combination
00:31:41.280 of you know
00:31:42.100 when you get out
00:31:42.960 into the Rockies
00:31:43.580 and do some hiking
00:31:44.340 for me anyway
00:31:45.480 you feel Canadian
00:31:46.420 because it's just
00:31:48.200 you take a deep breath
00:31:49.240 you look at the
00:31:49.760 grandeur of this country
00:31:50.740 and you think
00:31:51.780 yes
00:31:52.140 this is worth
00:31:53.320 celebrating
00:31:53.820 so we can get
00:31:54.980 all philosophical
00:31:55.580 as I do
00:31:56.220 and celebrate
00:31:57.380 the achievements
00:31:58.440 of various people
00:31:59.720 in its history
00:32:00.260 and how we've built
00:32:00.940 this massive oak tree
00:32:02.220 that shelters
00:32:02.760 tens of millions
00:32:03.540 of people
00:32:03.980 beneath it now
00:32:04.780 and has
00:32:05.260 for a very long time
00:32:06.700 but there's something
00:32:07.700 about the nature
00:32:08.580 of Canada
00:32:09.020 that just
00:32:09.960 fills me up
00:32:11.040 with pride
00:32:12.260 and awe
00:32:12.880 alright
00:32:14.600 well that is
00:32:15.120 a lovely answer
00:32:16.040 and yes
00:32:16.300 nothing like that
00:32:17.040 mountain air
00:32:17.920 despite the weather
00:32:19.200 in your province
00:32:19.980 some of the year
00:32:21.220 Lynn
00:32:21.900 what would yours be
00:32:22.740 what's something
00:32:23.140 you love about Canada
00:32:24.100 well I won't go on
00:32:26.480 about canoe trips
00:32:27.280 but I do share
00:32:28.320 what Mark was saying
00:32:29.260 I would say
00:32:30.340 that as a Canadian
00:32:31.800 and a Canadian woman
00:32:32.920 and after all
00:32:33.580 we were brought up
00:32:34.200 to be inferior
00:32:34.820 to the guys
00:32:35.640 I went off
00:32:37.100 from having
00:32:37.660 gone to UBC
00:32:39.140 having grown up
00:32:40.420 in US Ministry
00:32:41.080 British Columbia
00:32:41.640 and I went off
00:32:42.740 to do my PhD
00:32:43.500 at the London School
00:32:44.200 of Economics
00:32:44.760 kind of the capital
00:32:45.960 of the world
00:32:46.540 London
00:32:46.960 and I felt
00:32:48.100 perfectly confident
00:32:49.420 you know
00:32:50.160 I was a Canadian
00:32:51.020 this is London
00:32:52.160 well
00:32:52.820 you know
00:32:53.340 I'm here
00:32:54.060 and I can cope
00:32:55.940 with it all
00:32:56.480 I thought
00:32:57.280 that I had
00:32:58.100 a good background
00:32:59.300 by being a Canadian
00:33:00.640 alright
00:33:02.820 wonderful
00:33:03.300 and we'll give you
00:33:04.020 the last word
00:33:04.640 Rima
00:33:04.900 I will add
00:33:06.820 to what
00:33:07.500 both of the
00:33:09.220 speakers have said
00:33:10.000 the winter
00:33:10.700 I love winter
00:33:11.680 but also definitely
00:33:13.020 that
00:33:13.340 men and women
00:33:15.100 are equal
00:33:15.780 we have a rule of law
00:33:17.200 hopefully we'll keep
00:33:17.960 habit for everyone
00:33:19.100 and
00:33:19.500 you know
00:33:21.000 all what is Canadian
00:33:22.060 in that sense
00:33:22.820 and the kindness
00:33:23.640 of people
00:33:24.360 we're so kind
00:33:25.320 to the point
00:33:25.900 that we think
00:33:26.680 we're the worst
00:33:27.520 races of the world
00:33:28.700 I think
00:33:29.400 well that is a
00:33:31.540 lovely lovely
00:33:32.500 note on which
00:33:33.280 to end
00:33:33.940 thank you
00:33:34.560 all of you
00:33:35.140 for coming on
00:33:36.660 and for sharing
00:33:37.840 your stories
00:33:38.460 in this wonderful
00:33:39.440 new book
00:33:39.880 the 1867 project
00:33:41.800 why Canada
00:33:42.740 should be cherished
00:33:43.740 not cancelled
00:33:44.340 you can get that
00:33:44.960 on Amazon
00:33:45.460 published by
00:33:46.180 the Aristotle
00:33:47.100 Foundation
00:33:47.960 Mark Mielke
00:33:48.680 Rima Azar
00:33:50.060 and Lynn
00:33:50.800 McDonald
00:33:51.220 do hold on
00:33:51.900 just a moment
00:33:52.360 once we wrap
00:33:52.980 but thank you
00:33:53.520 so much
00:33:54.040 we will talk
00:33:55.020 to you all
00:33:55.300 next week
00:33:55.780 on the Andrew
00:33:56.520 Lawton show
00:33:56.980 here on True
00:33:57.540 North
00:33:57.780 thank you
00:33:58.360 God bless
00:33:58.900 and happy
00:33:59.540 Canada
00:33:59.980 thanks for
00:34:00.520 listening to
00:34:01.020 the Andrew
00:34:01.420 Lawton show
00:34:02.020 support the
00:34:03.020 program by
00:34:03.540 donating to
00:34:04.120 True North
00:34:04.580 at
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