Juno News - Why the activists who hate Canada are wrong

00:00:00.000 Welcome back to the Andrew Lawton Show, the last show before Canada Day or Dominion Day as the old-fashioned among us like to call it still.

00:00:20.320 We thought we'd do something on this show with the holiday upon us, a little bit different from what we normally do, and it's a bit of a follow-up from a discussion we had last week with Mark Milkey, who's the editor of a great new book called The 1867 Project, Why Canada Should Be Cherished, Not Cancelled.

00:00:37.860 We had such a great time with Mark. We thought it would be really lovely to go into a bit more depth about the landscape in Canada, looking at history and, of course, contemporary issues as well, and really that fundamental idea that Canada is a country worth celebrating.

00:00:53.580 So we brought Mark back, but we also have two of the contributors from this great anthology of essays.

00:01:00.680 One of them is Dr. Lynn McDonald, who is a professor emerita of sociology at the University of Guelph and a former member of Parliament.

00:01:08.860 We also have Dr. Rima Azar, who is an associate professor of psychology at Mount Allison University, and, of course, Dr. Mark Milkey, the editor of this and the publisher as well.

00:01:19.680 He is the president of the Aristotle Foundation. It's wonderful to have all three of you here joining us, and thank you so much for your wonderful contributions to this.

00:01:29.420 Let me begin with you, if I can, Lynn, because there has been oftentimes in the discourse about Canadian history and whether we need to cancel it and cancel historic figures,

00:01:39.840 what has appeared to be a left-right fault line politically, and your contribution is fascinating.

00:01:46.080 You have a great chapter about Egerton Ryerson, but I think it's particularly noteworthy that you're a former New Democrat member of Parliament,

00:01:53.600 and I think in the current political context, it's often people on the left that it looks like, from my vantage point,

00:02:00.300 are the ones leading the charge to cancel historic figures, and I was just wondering how you view that political dynamic.

00:02:06.720 Well, you're right, and it's very embarrassing for somebody on the left, which I still am, to see people whose other views I respect and share,

00:02:17.840 to have dumped on the bandwagon, to have been uncritical.

00:02:21.200 I'm not a historian by background, but I've basically become a historian, having worked on Florence Nightingale in the 19th century,

00:02:27.560 a period that overlapped with Ryerson, so when the move came against Ryerson, and I think the move against Ryerson was all parties,

00:02:37.340 but generally speaking, that's true for the people who are in Mark Mielke's book, and I was very pleased to be invited into it,

00:02:44.820 but I'm just constantly embarrassed by my colleagues who just get it wrong.

00:02:49.940 They just don't seem to care about facts.

00:02:51.980 I'm a fact person.

00:02:52.980 I'm a content person, and I do the reading.

00:02:57.600 Yeah, and in the case of Ryerson in particular, here's a guy who is responsible in large ways,

00:03:03.660 as Mark and I were talking about a bit last week, for public education in Ontario,

00:03:07.720 which is, again, something that is pretty widely accepted and widely regarded among people in all parties,

00:03:14.140 but certainly people on the left should be celebrating that.

00:03:17.260 So what is it that you think makes it so difficult for them to overlook these things, to focus only on the negatives?

00:03:24.880 Well, they don't understand history at all.

00:03:27.860 What Ryerson did was revolutionary at the time.

00:03:30.560 Now, she himself had trouble with political parties,

00:03:33.280 and so she was well-connected with Mr. John A. Macdonald before he became Sir John A. in 1867.

00:03:40.180 In effect, John A. Macdonald was his boss when Ryerson was a civil servant.

00:03:45.540 He couldn't get anything through without persuading people.

00:03:48.460 So he had to persuade people of any party, and he did.

00:03:52.240 And what he did in Ontario was revolutionary.

00:03:54.860 It influenced the education systems for the rest of the country,

00:03:58.620 and it even influenced the education system in the UK.

00:04:02.700 And it was, as you say, you can't put a party label on him.

00:04:06.020 But he was, well, possibly a very progressive conservative.

00:04:09.480 He certainly was a, he certainly wanted a substantial public sector.

00:04:15.460 There should be a free public education system.

00:04:18.420 We don't understand that now.

00:04:19.900 He didn't have a boss as minister of education.

00:04:22.520 There was no minister of education.

00:04:25.240 He, eventually, his position became deputy minister of education.

00:04:28.460 But at the time, education was entirely private.

00:04:31.480 If you could pay for it, you got it.

00:04:33.020 But he was a person who saw an important role for the public sector.

00:04:39.480 And what Tommy Douglas did on health care.

00:04:43.900 But people get it in the NDP about Tommy Douglas,

00:04:47.340 but they don't seem to get it about Edgerton Ryerson.

00:04:49.680 I'll go to you on this, Rima.

00:04:53.040 I know that your chapter focuses on identity politics,

00:04:56.140 so not Canadian history per se.

00:04:58.360 And you look at your experiences from Lebanon

00:05:00.720 and how they relate to the Canadian trends

00:05:04.000 and the Western trends we're seeing on this.

00:05:05.860 But I'll ask you in that similar vein about the left-right issue here.

00:05:10.000 Do you view the identity politics issue as being a left-right one?

00:05:13.920 Or do you think it's more broader than that?

00:05:16.280 Do you think it's broader than that?

00:05:18.480 Thank you.

00:05:19.240 And I would like to send you to what Dr. McDonald said

00:05:22.360 about the facts, reminding us of that.

00:05:24.700 And to answer you, I denounce identity politics.

00:05:28.260 It doesn't matter from which side it's coming, left or right.

00:05:31.900 Right now, it's the left.

00:05:33.620 It's the radical left.

00:05:34.740 But maybe in the future, it may be coming as a response or a shift from the right,

00:05:42.480 from maybe the true left, sorry, far right,

00:05:46.240 not the far right that they accused us of

00:05:48.880 when we are expressing our opinions or questioning things.

00:05:53.800 So to answer your question, identity politics as a principle is dangerous.

00:05:58.660 And history has shown us that Lebanon is a school in itself,

00:06:03.180 not just for my birth country, but for the whole world,

00:06:06.900 not to do what Lebanon said he has gone through civil war, right?

00:06:12.960 One of the things that I, not in Lebanon specifically necessarily,

00:06:17.000 but in other Middle Eastern countries that we see

00:06:18.920 when there is a dramatic regime change or a revolution,

00:06:22.260 one of the first things we see images of

00:06:25.060 are tearing down the monuments to whatever was there before.

00:06:29.040 And, you know, in some cases, it may be a figure

00:06:31.140 that shouldn't have a monument.

00:06:32.780 In other cases, it's churches that are thousands of years old

00:06:35.700 that have withstood wars and conquests, but can't withstand this.

00:06:39.480 So how do you feel when you see similar trends in Canada,

00:06:44.720 people that have this same level of destructiveness

00:06:47.600 that is the very worst trait we see in some other parts of the world?

00:06:51.960 Deeply said, shocked.

00:06:53.840 That's unacceptable, regardless of the figure.

00:06:58.400 So imagine what we call the fathers of Canada.

00:07:01.800 That's kind of insulting to the collective memory, right?

00:07:05.180 But even if we forget that,

00:07:07.560 and even if some historic figures are controversial

00:07:11.800 through the eyes of the lens, our lens right now,

00:07:14.480 I think we should remember that they are the men of the past,

00:07:18.480 that there are times, they are not the men of today or tomorrow.

00:07:21.420 So remember the context.

00:07:23.700 And burning churches or temples or synagogues

00:07:26.320 or mosques or anything like that is a no-no. 0.95

00:07:30.700 I just, a story for you,

00:07:32.580 someone from Lebanon once wanting to immigrate here

00:07:35.460 contacted me asking,

00:07:37.180 is it true that in Canada we are burning churches?

00:07:40.080 They got scared, imagine.

00:07:42.900 Let me ask you, Mark, about how we weave this all together.

00:07:47.060 Because, you know, there was a time when being Canadian,

00:07:50.460 up until even a few years ago,

00:07:52.120 was a very unifying thing for people in Canada

00:07:55.160 and people who had been born here,

00:07:57.460 people who had emigrated to Canada,

00:07:59.820 people who were new citizens,

00:08:01.220 people who were permanent residents.

00:08:02.440 It used to be very unifying.

00:08:04.560 And obviously a lot has changed politically

00:08:06.180 in the last few years in this country

00:08:08.100 as it has elsewhere in the world.

00:08:10.060 But now we have strange CBC articles

00:08:12.640 about how the Canadian flag is a far-right symbol

00:08:16.200 to some people.

00:08:17.140 And we have people that are, you know,

00:08:19.220 on Parliament Hill saying

00:08:20.240 we need to lower the Canadian flag to half mass

00:08:22.640 for the better part of half a year.

00:08:25.140 And as I mentioned, when you and I spoke last week,

00:08:27.340 the idea of celebrating Canada

00:08:29.480 is perhaps not controversial

00:08:31.420 to the population as a whole,

00:08:33.900 but certainly in some segments of it

00:08:36.020 is not going to be well-received.

00:08:39.060 So where do you take this?

00:08:41.000 Where do you take all of these things

00:08:42.420 that we're talking about now

00:08:43.480 and try to put that positive stake in the ground?

00:08:47.900 Well, there are a number of things happening, I think.

00:08:49.980 One is we should dispense with party politics

00:08:52.740 because, frankly, political parties and politicians

00:08:56.040 are always at the end of an ideas stream, so to speak, right?

00:08:58.760 Ideas affect culture, and culture affects politics.

00:09:01.900 That's the order of how it goes.

00:09:03.900 So when a chunk of the population looks back

00:09:06.760 and has a simplistic view of history,

00:09:08.400 utopian view of history,

00:09:09.560 where they see people in the 19th century

00:09:13.280 and go, well, they weren't perfect

00:09:14.480 or they had ideas different than ours.

00:09:16.800 Well, no kidding.

00:09:18.560 And also the imperfections.

00:09:20.340 What they do is they look at history as wrongly

00:09:24.440 in this sense,

00:09:26.220 rather than looking at history as an oak tree,

00:09:28.100 where you get this wonderful country

00:09:30.460 that grows up over decades and centuries,

00:09:33.780 and civilization sometimes,

00:09:35.000 in the case of civilization's millennia,

00:09:38.060 where you prune branches,

00:09:39.420 you try and make it better

00:09:40.260 if you're interested in, say,

00:09:42.200 a free and flourishing society,

00:09:44.520 and especially, as we've known, in the Anglosphere.

00:09:47.240 We have people today that see a flaw in history

00:09:49.540 and a flawed limb on the tree,

00:09:51.060 and rather than just cut off the limb,

00:09:52.900 which has already been done historically,

00:09:54.500 we gave women the vote in the 1910s, 1.00

00:09:56.340 we restored the vote to indigenous people

00:09:58.100 that never should have been taken away in 1960,

00:10:00.240 and so on and so forth.

00:10:01.920 Rather than look at the oak tree

00:10:03.580 as a project that shelters people

00:10:06.040 over the decades and centuries,

00:10:07.780 you have people that see a flaw in history or now

00:10:10.600 and want to take it down.

00:10:11.680 And I think actually the rise of social media

00:10:13.660 and the internet exacerbates this.

00:10:15.220 I mean, think about this.

00:10:17.060 50 years ago,

00:10:18.320 if you wanted to keep something

00:10:19.740 in the headlines continually,

00:10:21.800 think about the Watergate scandal, right?

00:10:24.560 The three major networks and newspapers

00:10:26.260 had to be on that day after day after day.

00:10:29.120 That's how you kept something

00:10:30.920 in the public consciousness.

00:10:32.620 These days, with the rise of the internet,

00:10:34.280 you can take an event from 1,000 years ago

00:10:36.380 or 500 years ago,

00:10:37.920 and you read about it

00:10:39.180 or someone creates a video about it,

00:10:40.600 and it seems real today,

00:10:41.940 and you feel bad for the victims,

00:10:43.600 as you should.

00:10:44.660 But here's the thing.

00:10:45.840 The victims and the oppressors are long dead.

00:10:48.580 And if you bring that into the present

00:10:49.860 and you make simplistic connections,

00:10:51.740 as people do,

00:10:52.380 and say,

00:10:52.980 well, what happened 150 years ago

00:10:54.740 affects outcomes today,

00:10:56.480 as people often do.

00:10:57.480 Bill Clinton once blamed 9-11

00:10:59.520 partly on the Crusades.

00:11:01.520 But of course,

00:11:02.040 the Crusades didn't exist in isolation.

00:11:04.140 You know,

00:11:04.300 there was the Moors attacking the Christians,

00:11:06.280 the Christians attacking the Moors, 0.99

00:11:07.440 the Crusades came in that chain of things.

00:11:10.860 But Bill Clinton was simplistic. 0.97

00:11:12.740 It was ridiculous. 0.88

00:11:14.060 The Crusades had been forgotten 0.58

00:11:15.480 by the mid-19th century

00:11:16.680 until anti-colonialists brought it up again

00:11:18.880 in the mid-19th century,

00:11:20.600 you know,

00:11:21.060 as one way to get rid of colonialists.

00:11:23.440 So, you know,

00:11:25.960 the simplistic connection

00:11:27.380 of terrible events in history

00:11:28.840 that somehow affect us

00:11:30.300 yet today,

00:11:32.360 and the problem is

00:11:34.100 that's really not sensible.

00:11:36.120 And the left-right divide,

00:11:37.260 I don't think,

00:11:37.640 actually matters either.

00:11:38.980 Not only do the political parties

00:11:40.380 not matter,

00:11:41.080 I'm not sure left-right

00:11:42.100 is a good way to view things

00:11:43.840 in most cases.

00:11:44.820 The left-right continuum

00:11:45.840 kind of came up

00:11:46.640 because of the French Revolution.

00:11:48.260 You know,

00:11:48.320 the conservatives were on the right,

00:11:49.480 the revolutionaries were on the left.

00:11:51.620 That's how this concept came up.

00:11:53.940 But fundamentally,

00:11:55.040 the problem in human history,

00:11:56.300 I would argue,

00:11:57.020 there's a couple of things.

00:11:58.060 One,

00:11:58.760 people are always tribal, 1.00

00:12:00.820 and it took a lot

00:12:01.800 to get them away

00:12:02.460 from being tribal

00:12:03.220 based on color

00:12:04.200 or ethnicity or birth

00:12:05.440 and get them to be tribal

00:12:07.420 about good ideas, right?

00:12:08.820 Open markets,

00:12:10.080 the worth of the individual,

00:12:11.780 the equality,

00:12:12.520 the moral equality

00:12:13.300 of the individual,

00:12:14.160 which I think is,

00:12:15.200 you know,

00:12:15.440 I think it's quite clear

00:12:16.360 that came from a monotheistic,

00:12:18.040 you know,

00:12:18.260 view and Judaism

00:12:19.440 and Christianity in particular.

00:12:21.780 These idea developments in history,

00:12:23.820 we got people away

00:12:24.640 from being tribal

00:12:25.820 about things

00:12:26.760 that are not changeable

00:12:27.560 to hopefully being tribal

00:12:29.100 about good ideas, right?

00:12:30.280 It's why people in Hong Kong today

00:12:31.780 will still reference

00:12:32.920 the British Empire,

00:12:34.000 British colonial period

00:12:34.880 positively

00:12:35.400 because of the freedom

00:12:36.680 that they were given

00:12:37.460 vis-a-vis now

00:12:38.120 the regime in Beijing.

00:12:39.520 So there's a number

00:12:40.160 of things happening.

00:12:41.600 But basically,

00:12:42.640 I think the people attacking history

00:12:44.640 in one sense are utopian.

00:12:45.960 I think they're anti-history.

00:12:47.900 Sorry,

00:12:48.420 they're anti-idea

00:12:50.020 and they're anti-informed history.

00:12:52.960 And social media

00:12:53.500 just exacerbates that

00:12:54.840 and exacerbates the divisions.

00:12:56.800 So I think somehow

00:12:57.560 you need to get people

00:12:58.400 to, again,

00:12:59.000 think about what are good ideas.

00:13:01.060 You know,

00:13:01.320 if you're Indian,

00:13:02.200 for example,

00:13:02.860 yes,

00:13:03.100 of course you didn't want

00:13:03.900 to be ruled by the British,

00:13:04.980 but it's a reality of history.

00:13:06.620 But you can take

00:13:07.160 the English language,

00:13:08.120 you can take the fact

00:13:08.900 that British abolished satay

00:13:10.080 as good things

00:13:11.200 from the British Empire

00:13:12.480 and leave the rest.

00:13:14.020 But again,

00:13:14.780 people are not making

00:13:15.500 distinctions these days.

00:13:16.580 So there's a number

00:13:17.700 of things going on,

00:13:18.400 but I do think

00:13:18.820 social media

00:13:19.360 probably exacerbates

00:13:20.660 the potential

00:13:21.400 to be tribal

00:13:22.980 in the very old-fashioned

00:13:24.400 negative sense.

00:13:25.620 Well,

00:13:25.760 and I think that's

00:13:26.840 an important dynamic

00:13:28.000 of this

00:13:28.540 as far as the how

00:13:29.860 and perhaps the why.

00:13:31.320 Because,

00:13:31.940 you know,

00:13:32.240 my intention was to focus

00:13:33.580 on the Canadian history,

00:13:34.560 but we have a sociologist

00:13:36.120 and a psychologist

00:13:36.880 on the panel,

00:13:37.600 so we can perhaps

00:13:38.780 dig into some of the

00:13:39.720 pathologies of this

00:13:41.180 a little bit.

00:13:41.780 And I'll ask you,

00:13:42.800 Lynn,

00:13:43.020 where you think

00:13:44.200 the motivation is

00:13:46.040 behind a lot of this

00:13:47.400 cancellation?

00:13:48.560 Because I think

00:13:49.120 some of it is not

00:13:50.320 coming from,

00:13:51.420 in fact,

00:13:51.820 most of it,

00:13:52.320 I would argue,

00:13:53.040 is probably not coming

00:13:53.960 from people with

00:13:54.620 deep-seated,

00:13:55.760 principled views

00:13:56.960 of history,

00:13:57.700 as you've indicated,

00:13:59.200 and understandings

00:14:00.020 of history.

00:14:00.420 I think a lot of it

00:14:01.060 is bandwagoning,

00:14:02.020 where people see

00:14:02.960 someone else said

00:14:03.780 something bad

00:14:04.440 about Ryerson,

00:14:05.280 so,

00:14:05.860 well,

00:14:06.240 I like them,

00:14:07.000 so if they don't

00:14:07.520 like Ryerson,

00:14:08.260 then I must not

00:14:08.980 like Ryerson.

00:14:09.780 And no one's really

00:14:10.560 critically evaluating

00:14:11.680 at any step of this

00:14:13.220 process why we have

00:14:14.240 to cancel this figure.

00:14:15.360 And even the

00:14:15.900 Canadian flag,

00:14:16.720 I mean,

00:14:17.240 lowering the Canadian

00:14:18.060 flag to half-mast

00:14:19.220 for,

00:14:20.320 again,

00:14:20.560 five months,

00:14:21.060 I think it was,

00:14:21.840 was a profoundly

00:14:22.980 damaging symbol

00:14:24.900 and dangerous precedent,

00:14:26.740 I believe.

00:14:27.580 But if you're someone

00:14:28.720 that is motivated

00:14:30.880 to do that,

00:14:32.160 it's amazing how

00:14:33.320 inconsequential a gesture

00:14:34.920 it really is.

00:14:35.940 You're saying,

00:14:36.800 you know,

00:14:37.020 we as a country

00:14:37.820 are perpetuating

00:14:39.440 ongoing genocide,

00:14:40.280 and all we're going

00:14:41.160 to do is lower

00:14:41.640 the flag.

00:14:42.140 Like,

00:14:42.320 in that case,

00:14:42.980 it's not actually

00:14:43.620 achieving anything

00:14:44.380 for them.

00:14:45.480 So I'll ask you

00:14:46.340 where you think

00:14:47.400 this is coming from

00:14:48.440 because I do not

00:14:49.660 believe,

00:14:50.520 and you may disagree,

00:14:51.620 that there is this

00:14:52.900 deep intellectual

00:14:54.840 process that's behind

00:14:56.880 a lot of these

00:14:57.900 efforts.

00:15:00.040 Well,

00:15:00.680 there certainly

00:15:01.160 isn't a deep

00:15:01.880 intellectual process

00:15:02.820 or even elementary

00:15:03.920 fact-finding.

00:15:05.660 I would say

00:15:06.280 presentism is a big

00:15:07.780 problem.

00:15:08.160 There's also

00:15:08.920 one-personism

00:15:09.960 or culprit-ism,

00:15:11.820 presentism.

00:15:12.780 People think

00:15:13.800 of the past

00:15:14.840 in terms of today.

00:15:16.920 For example,

00:15:17.820 Sir John A.

00:15:18.420 Macdonald was racist, 0.87

00:15:19.800 no doubt about it.

00:15:20.780 Plenty of things

00:15:21.360 were racist

00:15:21.860 that he said,

00:15:23.820 and he was quite

00:15:25.220 typical of his time.

00:15:26.640 But that's 1885

00:15:28.080 that I'm particularly

00:15:29.180 talking about

00:15:29.880 Chinese exclusion.

00:15:31.640 Well,

00:15:32.340 the Universal

00:15:33.780 Declaration of Human Rights

00:15:35.160 is 1948

00:15:36.500 after World War II.

00:15:38.620 So between

00:15:39.260 1885,

00:15:40.300 you had World War I,

00:15:41.760 you have Woodrow

00:15:42.180 Wilson's 14 points,

00:15:44.040 you have World War II,

00:15:45.560 you have the Holocaust, 0.98

00:15:47.040 and racism

00:15:47.980 seems like a very

00:15:49.000 bad idea then.

00:15:50.560 And people

00:15:51.000 got onto it.

00:15:51.980 Incidentally,

00:15:52.680 Tommy Douglas' 0.82

00:15:53.420 Bill of Rights

00:15:53.980 was 1947,

00:15:55.420 even a year before

00:15:56.220 the Universal

00:15:57.060 Declaration

00:15:57.740 of Human Rights,

00:15:59.060 and Dietrich Baker

00:15:59.880 got in

00:16:00.400 in 1960.

00:16:02.180 But those were

00:16:02.760 things much later.

00:16:03.720 What are people

00:16:04.660 going to say now?

00:16:06.400 Yeah,

00:16:07.120 and I think

00:16:07.700 you raise

00:16:08.380 an important point there.

00:16:09.660 And I mean,

00:16:10.040 gay marriage

00:16:10.540 is an interesting one

00:16:11.660 in Canada

00:16:12.700 because 20 years ago,

00:16:15.540 gay marriage

00:16:16.500 was kept illegal

00:16:18.680 by a vote

00:16:19.720 that involved

00:16:20.380 pretty much

00:16:20.940 all parties

00:16:21.960 in Parliament.

00:16:22.940 And now,

00:16:23.940 you wouldn't find

00:16:24.820 a single party

00:16:25.900 whose members

00:16:26.640 would vote as a bloc

00:16:27.720 in the same way.

00:16:29.620 So things do change,

00:16:30.880 perspectives do change,

00:16:32.160 and I'll go back

00:16:34.220 to the pathology

00:16:35.280 aspect of it

00:16:36.020 for a moment,

00:16:36.600 Rima.

00:16:36.760 I know you're

00:16:37.200 a psychologist

00:16:37.900 and when you see

00:16:39.040 people that have

00:16:40.680 this profound level

00:16:41.780 of,

00:16:43.000 I mean,

00:16:43.340 I don't know

00:16:43.660 if guilt is the best way,

00:16:45.060 this idea of national guilt

00:16:46.420 or national shame,

00:16:47.840 what drives that?

00:16:51.060 Very interesting.

00:16:52.380 It's very hard

00:16:52.940 to answer that question

00:16:53.980 because there are

00:16:55.180 so many factors.

00:16:56.540 There's the guilt

00:16:57.340 that when we're looking

00:16:58.300 at that past

00:16:59.140 and stories

00:17:00.660 that disturb people,

00:17:02.480 obviously,

00:17:03.360 they feel

00:17:04.000 they are in grief somehow

00:17:06.460 or maybe they thought

00:17:08.800 their country was perfect

00:17:09.980 and they are discovering

00:17:10.800 that it's like

00:17:11.580 all countries

00:17:12.420 in the world,

00:17:13.640 it's not.

00:17:14.560 So I think

00:17:15.220 maybe it's good

00:17:16.260 to remember

00:17:16.760 that we can have

00:17:17.720 mixed feelings,

00:17:20.020 especially in a grief journey

00:17:22.880 or a growth journey.

00:17:24.360 We can have

00:17:24.860 two contradictory ideas

00:17:26.280 at the same time.

00:17:27.720 We can see

00:17:28.520 someone has done

00:17:29.600 some goodness

00:17:30.360 but someone

00:17:31.080 could be also

00:17:32.200 has done

00:17:33.420 some bad things

00:17:34.360 at the same time

00:17:35.160 willingly or not

00:17:36.100 or depending on the context.

00:17:37.980 So the nuance

00:17:38.700 is missing

00:17:39.740 and I think

00:17:40.820 the book,

00:17:42.080 Dr. Merkel's book

00:17:43.320 is Mark's book,

00:17:44.720 that book is amazing

00:17:45.820 for the nuances.

00:17:46.580 What I learned

00:17:47.020 from each chapter,

00:17:48.100 especially your chapter,

00:17:49.740 and I didn't know

00:17:51.020 those details myself.

00:17:53.400 Well,

00:17:54.000 to go back

00:17:54.540 to the identity

00:17:55.120 politics aspect,

00:17:56.280 Rima,

00:17:56.760 one of the things

00:17:57.380 that is so damaging

00:17:58.500 about a lot of these

00:17:59.580 political discussions

00:18:00.840 is that they're really

00:18:01.800 aiming to divide.

00:18:03.420 I mean,

00:18:03.700 people,

00:18:04.140 to Lynn's point,

00:18:04.980 are not looking

00:18:05.500 to have an honest

00:18:07.100 discussion about this

00:18:08.160 and say,

00:18:08.540 how do we contextualize history?

00:18:10.260 How do we understand it?

00:18:11.360 What do we make of it?

00:18:12.440 What's the proper role

00:18:13.780 of us as historians,

00:18:15.680 as Canadians,

00:18:16.520 whatever the case is?

00:18:17.700 It's about pitting

00:18:18.660 people against each other

00:18:19.840 and pitting groups

00:18:20.520 against each other

00:18:21.260 and that is really what,

00:18:22.540 in my conceptualization

00:18:24.120 of it anyway,

00:18:24.860 identity politics

00:18:25.640 is all about.

00:18:27.380 I totally agree.

00:18:28.900 It is like,

00:18:31.420 we have been divided

00:18:32.420 now in Canada

00:18:33.280 into groups

00:18:34.080 and subgroups

00:18:35.060 and acronyms

00:18:35.940 and we,

00:18:36.340 it's at the same time

00:18:39.420 almost funny

00:18:40.540 because let's say myself,

00:18:42.760 I should fit that acronym 0.94

00:18:43.920 of BIPOC,

00:18:45.380 I think it's called

00:18:46.240 or whatever acronym,

00:18:47.300 you know,

00:18:47.540 the whole long thing,

00:18:48.880 black people of color,

00:18:50.200 I don't know

00:18:50.500 what's my color actually.

00:18:52.460 So it doesn't make any sense

00:18:54.800 how can someone

00:18:55.580 with the same skin color

00:18:56.780 as myself

00:18:57.520 from Chicoutimi

00:18:58.680 be kind of similar

00:18:59.980 to someone from Alberta.

00:19:01.200 Like the language

00:19:01.720 is not the same,

00:19:02.720 the experience

00:19:03.260 is not the same.

00:19:04.320 We are richer than that.

00:19:06.140 We are human beings.

00:19:07.700 Each person has a combination

00:19:09.940 of all the experiences

00:19:11.580 and then the parts

00:19:13.300 of the identities

00:19:14.220 in one person

00:19:15.620 and we are dismissing that

00:19:18.940 and that's sad.

00:19:22.060 Now you're not BIPOC, Mark, 0.99

00:19:23.760 so we're not allowed

00:19:24.480 to take your opinion

00:19:26.320 at the weight

00:19:27.100 of everyone else here

00:19:27.880 but I'll ask you about that

00:19:29.840 in the realm

00:19:31.060 of the Canadian story

00:19:32.180 because Canada

00:19:32.900 does not get enough credit

00:19:34.220 for how unique it is

00:19:36.660 as a national project.

00:19:38.260 This idea of a bi-national,

00:19:40.440 a bi-cultural country

00:19:41.760 that despite all of the tensions

00:19:44.340 in the last 150 some odd years

00:19:47.300 has survived

00:19:48.680 is not insignificant

00:19:51.580 and again,

00:19:52.820 John A. MacDonald

00:19:53.500 who Lynn rightly acknowledged

00:19:55.400 has skeletons in his closet

00:19:57.120 did something

00:19:58.760 that was at the time

00:20:00.060 very unlikely

00:20:00.920 and he held his country

00:20:01.800 together truly

00:20:02.560 with I think

00:20:03.280 like duct tape and straws

00:20:04.800 because Confederation

00:20:06.080 was very touch and go

00:20:07.460 for years up to it

00:20:09.080 and even after it

00:20:10.180 and the idea

00:20:12.020 of celebrating

00:20:12.980 the survival of Canada

00:20:14.480 over the years

00:20:15.560 is something

00:20:16.240 that I don't feel

00:20:16.940 happens enough.

00:20:19.040 Well, certainly not anymore

00:20:20.380 and one of the reasons

00:20:22.660 we wrote the 1867 project

00:20:24.380 and Lynn contributed

00:20:25.220 and Rima contributed

00:20:26.040 and so did 17 other people

00:20:27.460 is to try and add

00:20:28.660 some nuance to history

00:20:29.780 which we hope

00:20:30.960 would give people

00:20:32.080 some modesty

00:20:34.600 so to speak

00:20:35.260 that make outrageous claims.

00:20:37.520 So let me give you

00:20:38.180 a clear example

00:20:39.000 and again,

00:20:40.060 part of this goes back

00:20:40.880 to what you just mentioned

00:20:42.620 which is that yes,

00:20:44.480 it was a complicated project

00:20:46.160 to put Canada together

00:20:47.240 in the first place.

00:20:48.040 There were divisions then.

00:20:48.920 They were different than today.

00:20:50.660 There might have been

00:20:51.180 between high Anglicans

00:20:52.340 and Methodists

00:20:52.960 for example,

00:20:53.700 right?

00:20:53.880 On the Protestant side.

00:20:55.320 Catholics were seen

00:20:56.080 as not worthy

00:20:56.720 of joining the Canadian project

00:20:58.000 because they were considered

00:20:59.060 illiberal, right?

00:21:00.500 They thought,

00:21:01.240 you know,

00:21:01.740 Protestants of the 19th century

00:21:03.440 thought Catholics

00:21:04.380 would take the orders

00:21:05.120 from Rome, right?

00:21:06.280 So Protestants were suspicious.

00:21:07.960 I mean,

00:21:08.220 there were tensions

00:21:08.940 back then and divisions

00:21:09.980 but what managed

00:21:11.360 to overcome them again

00:21:12.340 was this notion

00:21:12.980 of the worth

00:21:13.480 of the individual.

00:21:14.540 That seed was there

00:21:15.680 in the 19th century

00:21:16.620 and part of the problem

00:21:19.240 is, you know,

00:21:19.680 again,

00:21:19.920 we divide into tribal,

00:21:21.680 you know,

00:21:22.040 we divvy off into tribes

00:21:24.480 maybe almost naturally

00:21:25.880 human history

00:21:26.500 and you have to consciously

00:21:27.960 think I'm going to look

00:21:28.940 at the person here

00:21:29.760 especially in law

00:21:30.680 and policy

00:21:31.340 as an individual

00:21:33.060 in law and policy.

00:21:34.500 Governments have to do that

00:21:35.580 but look,

00:21:37.820 the other way

00:21:38.480 to approach this

00:21:39.220 is to tell stories

00:21:40.140 to remind people of history

00:21:41.160 and hope it wakes them up.

00:21:42.580 Let me give you

00:21:42.940 a clear example

00:21:43.780 because the problem

00:21:44.740 in, again,

00:21:46.040 because of this tribalism

00:21:47.080 we just think,

00:21:48.160 you know,

00:21:48.260 if we're at the top

00:21:48.860 of the heap so to speak

00:21:49.680 or people favor us today

00:21:51.000 then we must be perfect.

00:21:53.020 If you go back

00:21:53.520 to the 1950s

00:21:54.540 and before,

00:21:55.420 if you look at

00:21:55.900 John Wayne movies

00:21:56.700 and others,

00:21:57.620 I think arguably

00:21:58.400 there is a fair amount

00:21:59.500 of racism there

00:22:00.200 and racist assumptions

00:22:01.100 or, you know,

00:22:01.960 the indigenous person

00:22:02.920 is always, you know,

00:22:04.100 subservient to the,

00:22:05.240 you know,

00:22:05.440 heroic white guy.

00:22:06.720 I think fairly enough

00:22:08.020 if you're indigenous

00:22:08.680 and you look at that

00:22:09.320 and you go,

00:22:09.700 good grief,

00:22:10.220 what was happening

00:22:10.840 back then?

00:22:11.620 But again,

00:22:11.940 that was back then.

00:22:13.920 Today,

00:22:14.680 you can flip it over

00:22:15.780 where people can romanticize

00:22:17.140 indigenous culture

00:22:18.060 and frankly,

00:22:19.640 both sides,

00:22:20.540 if I can put it that way,

00:22:21.380 it's not a left-right thing,

00:22:22.500 it's a tribal thing.

00:22:23.840 Both sides,

00:22:24.820 you know,

00:22:25.160 missed the point

00:22:26.000 which Alexander Solzhenitsyn,

00:22:27.860 the famous Soviet dissident,

00:22:29.960 talked about

00:22:30.940 or wrote about

00:22:31.500 in the Gulag Archipelago.

00:22:32.960 When he was a prisoner

00:22:33.880 in the Gulag,

00:22:35.140 there were people then

00:22:36.300 as before

00:22:37.200 that looked at other groups

00:22:39.120 and said,

00:22:39.540 well,

00:22:39.640 if we get rid of them,

00:22:40.920 they're the problem,

00:22:41.920 we'll have a good society.

00:22:43.620 And Solzhenitsyn wisely understood

00:22:45.520 and articulated this point.

00:22:47.640 The dividing line

00:22:48.660 between good and evil

00:22:49.500 runs through every human heart.

00:22:50.940 If you understand that

00:22:52.460 and you understand

00:22:53.020 the dangers of tribalism,

00:22:54.360 at least based on

00:22:55.040 unchangeable characteristics

00:22:56.240 as opposed to ideas,

00:22:57.360 but even perhaps ideas,

00:22:58.900 the Nazis had bad ideas

00:23:00.200 and plenty of people

00:23:00.880 were tribal about that.

00:23:02.140 But if you understand

00:23:03.100 Solzhenitsyn's point,

00:23:04.620 then it should bring

00:23:05.220 a bit of modesty.

00:23:06.280 But then you also have to be honest

00:23:07.420 about your own,

00:23:08.480 so to speak, history.

00:23:09.700 And again,

00:23:09.960 I don't think we have

00:23:11.000 to attach ourselves

00:23:11.880 to one's own ethnic history.

00:23:13.940 My background is German.

00:23:15.340 I wouldn't take anything

00:23:16.140 from German's governance

00:23:17.360 over the last two centuries

00:23:18.720 or five centuries.

00:23:19.960 I much prefer

00:23:20.540 the Anglosphere model

00:23:21.600 of the focus on the individual

00:23:22.840 and the rule of law

00:23:23.760 and free markets

00:23:24.820 and free expression

00:23:25.820 and so forth.

00:23:26.920 So you can detach yourself

00:23:28.480 from your ethnic

00:23:29.200 or colored history.

00:23:30.820 You know,

00:23:30.960 the color of your skin

00:23:32.880 and the history

00:23:33.300 that some people

00:23:34.060 will attribute to that

00:23:35.420 as if everyone

00:23:36.100 had the same history.

00:23:38.280 But it also helps out

00:23:39.660 to bring other stories.

00:23:40.960 One of my favorite stories

00:23:42.400 about mid-century

00:23:43.720 British Columbia

00:23:44.400 from the 19th century

00:23:45.480 is how 30 black Californians

00:23:47.480 moved to Victoria in 1858.

00:23:49.300 And remember that California

00:23:50.860 at this point

00:23:51.560 is very prejudiced.

00:23:52.780 It's not part of the South,

00:23:53.880 but it might as well be.

00:23:55.360 American states,

00:23:56.320 even in the North

00:23:57.100 and even in the West,

00:23:58.100 are very prejudiced 0.65

00:23:59.000 against black Americans. 0.98

00:24:01.000 30 black Americans

00:24:02.000 move up to Victoria.

00:24:03.240 They are welcomed

00:24:03.880 by the Archbishop of Victoria.

00:24:06.280 They are welcomed

00:24:06.940 by Governor James Douglas.

00:24:08.740 And they're able

00:24:10.360 to become citizens

00:24:11.100 after two years.

00:24:12.080 They can run for city council,

00:24:13.160 for the school board.

00:24:14.360 They encounter some prejudice.

00:24:15.380 It happens to be up island

00:24:17.140 from an indigenous

00:24:18.540 First Nation,

00:24:19.700 the Cowichan.

00:24:20.860 Now I say that,

00:24:22.300 and the indigenous

00:24:23.420 in British Columbia

00:24:24.040 had slaves

00:24:24.600 in the late 19th century,

00:24:26.700 which the British colonials

00:24:27.940 were trying to abolish

00:24:29.000 the practice of slavery.

00:24:30.500 I say that because,

00:24:31.900 again,

00:24:32.200 back to Alexander Solzhenitsyn,

00:24:34.020 the dividing line

00:24:34.840 between good and evil

00:24:35.600 is not between

00:24:36.440 your tribe

00:24:38.160 and my tribe.

00:24:39.100 It's, again,

00:24:39.620 in every human heart

00:24:40.580 and every human civilization

00:24:41.980 has a mixture

00:24:42.880 of both usually.

00:24:43.640 And so if you recognize that,

00:24:45.820 then you become more modest.

00:24:47.360 Whites should have been 1.00

00:24:48.000 more modest 0.86

00:24:48.660 about

00:24:49.520 and recognize

00:24:51.960 their own evil

00:24:52.840 in racism

00:24:53.620 before they did.

00:24:55.440 And in, again,

00:24:56.360 movies of the 1940s

00:24:57.520 and 1950s

00:24:58.260 and before.

00:25:00.260 You know,

00:25:00.480 but I think there's

00:25:01.060 a temptation today

00:25:02.400 because of,

00:25:03.200 you know,

00:25:03.340 the past abuse

00:25:04.060 of indigenous peoples

00:25:04.960 to now romanticize

00:25:05.940 indigenous history,

00:25:06.740 which overlooks the Aztecs

00:25:08.120 or overlooks

00:25:08.840 indigenous slavery. 0.74

00:25:09.980 And they only bring up

00:25:10.760 these points

00:25:11.200 not to beat up

00:25:11.940 on indigenous history.

00:25:13.640 But to simply say,

00:25:14.580 again,

00:25:15.300 everyone is part

00:25:16.080 of the same human project.

00:25:17.500 And if you make the mistake

00:25:18.560 of thinking

00:25:19.040 your group,

00:25:20.300 if only you ran things,

00:25:22.140 you know,

00:25:23.340 that's the temptation

00:25:24.240 of power.

00:25:25.360 And I got to tell you,

00:25:27.360 the temptation of power,

00:25:28.720 you know,

00:25:29.740 is intoxicating,

00:25:30.980 but it makes you think

00:25:31.840 you're perfect.

00:25:32.860 None of us are.

00:25:33.840 There is a difference

00:25:34.880 between recognizing

00:25:36.920 history

00:25:37.820 and historic figures

00:25:38.980 and venerating

00:25:40.200 historic figures.

00:25:41.840 And this is often,

00:25:42.780 I find,

00:25:43.400 where the debate

00:25:43.940 gets a little bit tricky

00:25:45.900 because it's one thing

00:25:47.240 to say,

00:25:47.720 yes,

00:25:47.980 we are not going

00:25:48.720 to cancel this person.

00:25:49.840 We're not going

00:25:50.140 to rip them out

00:25:50.600 of the history books,

00:25:51.300 but we'll talk about

00:25:52.840 the bad and the good.

00:25:53.800 And, you know,

00:25:54.220 we'll cast everyone

00:25:55.280 as a complicated figure

00:25:57.040 with a dark side

00:25:57.940 and a bright side.

00:25:59.040 And I'll ask you

00:26:00.160 about this, Lynn.

00:26:00.900 I mean,

00:26:01.100 there are lots of examples

00:26:02.120 of this.

00:26:02.500 You mentioned

00:26:02.840 Tommy Douglas earlier.

00:26:04.020 He once called

00:26:04.980 homosexuality 0.99

00:26:05.980 a mental illness, 1.00

00:26:07.100 but again, 0.99

00:26:07.640 was the father

00:26:08.260 of Medicare,

00:26:09.000 which has been

00:26:09.460 a very central part

00:26:10.760 of Canadian identity

00:26:11.920 for a lot of people.

00:26:13.400 And you look at

00:26:14.520 Nellie McClung,

00:26:15.480 you know,

00:26:15.680 one of the most prominent,

00:26:16.620 the most prominent

00:26:17.260 suffragette in Canada,

00:26:19.280 and she was an advocate

00:26:20.720 for eugenics.

00:26:21.540 So these are not

00:26:22.800 unknown things.

00:26:25.140 You could find it

00:26:25.920 with everyone,

00:26:26.500 whether you want

00:26:27.100 to talk about

00:26:27.620 John A. MacDonald,

00:26:28.760 Winston Churchill,

00:26:30.220 Mahatma Gandhi,

00:26:31.120 and so on.

00:26:32.320 So how do you think,

00:26:34.740 or what is the lens

00:26:35.880 you think we need

00:26:36.660 to take to these figures

00:26:37.740 where,

00:26:38.460 do you think we should

00:26:39.220 just say,

00:26:40.720 you know what,

00:26:41.280 the good outweighs

00:26:42.060 the bad,

00:26:42.500 we're going to celebrate them?

00:26:43.880 Or do you think

00:26:44.640 we need to approach

00:26:45.520 with a bit of a less

00:26:46.720 celebratory attitude

00:26:48.740 to these people,

00:26:49.440 even if they had

00:26:50.120 tremendous achievements?

00:26:53.640 I think we have to

00:26:55.320 take each one

00:26:56.740 into account

00:26:57.420 on their merits

00:26:58.500 and demerits.

00:27:00.360 Now,

00:27:00.580 I particularly worked

00:27:01.740 on Ryerson

00:27:02.420 and to some extent

00:27:03.980 on Henry Dundas,

00:27:05.660 and they are both people

00:27:06.860 for whom

00:27:08.200 the current record

00:27:09.580 is dead wrong.

00:27:11.140 They got it

00:27:11.640 exactly the opposite

00:27:12.980 in the case of Ryerson.

00:27:14.700 He was a friend

00:27:15.340 of Indigenous people.

00:27:16.400 He learned to speak

00:27:16.980 Ojibwe. 0.82

00:27:17.680 He was named a brother

00:27:18.680 and given an Ojibwe name,

00:27:20.760 and yet she is treated

00:27:21.780 as the architect

00:27:23.340 of the residential

00:27:24.740 school system.

00:27:25.660 He was branded that way,

00:27:27.080 and a plaque

00:27:28.260 is put up

00:27:28.720 next to a statue

00:27:29.460 supposedly

00:27:30.420 to contextualize

00:27:32.320 what he did.

00:27:33.660 It didn't contextualize.

00:27:35.240 It added fresh accusations

00:27:38.500 and did an extraordinary

00:27:40.700 thing of argument

00:27:41.780 by slicing,

00:27:43.260 and so put next to him

00:27:44.640 the horrible things

00:27:45.720 that happened

00:27:46.060 in residential schools

00:27:46.980 as if he were

00:27:47.700 responsible for them,

00:27:48.880 and that's true

00:27:50.300 for Henry Dundas.

00:27:51.460 It's a current issue

00:27:52.260 in Toronto

00:27:52.760 because City Council

00:27:53.960 a couple of years ago

00:27:55.220 voted to get rid

00:27:56.120 of the Dundas name

00:27:57.160 on the grounds

00:27:57.940 that he delayed

00:27:58.700 the abolition of slavery,

00:27:59.920 which he did not do.

00:28:01.040 He was a committed

00:28:01.900 and effective abolitionist

00:28:03.640 and is going to go back

00:28:05.300 to City Council.

00:28:07.280 There's a mayor's race

00:28:08.220 on and so forth,

00:28:09.660 and yet he,

00:28:10.980 at his merits

00:28:11.820 as an abolitionist,

00:28:12.920 are very strong.

00:28:14.020 He got rid,

00:28:14.760 as a lawyer,

00:28:15.740 got rid of slavery 0.75

00:28:16.540 in Scotland

00:28:17.160 by arguing a case

00:28:18.340 before the law lords

00:28:19.360 of a runaway slave.

00:28:21.180 So he did excellent things,

00:28:23.120 and the arguments

00:28:24.400 used against him

00:28:25.400 of all for delaying

00:28:27.000 the abolition,

00:28:27.880 people don't make

00:28:28.660 the distinction

00:28:29.160 between a motion

00:28:30.220 in the House of Commons

00:28:31.440 and getting a bill through.

00:28:32.880 You don't have a law

00:28:33.900 to do anything

00:28:34.660 until it goes

00:28:35.760 through the House of Lords

00:28:36.880 as well.

00:28:37.760 So just the level

00:28:39.540 of incompetence

00:28:41.540 on this

00:28:42.040 is really quite shocking.

00:28:43.820 I think you have

00:28:44.520 to look at them

00:28:45.140 one at a time.

00:28:46.040 Sir John A. Macdonald,

00:28:47.580 he wasn't racist,

00:28:48.740 but it can be contextualized.

00:28:50.880 You look at the context

00:28:52.140 and you look at the time,

00:28:53.780 that's quite fair.

00:28:54.940 He made enormous

00:28:56.000 contributions

00:28:58.440 to getting French and English,

00:29:00.540 Francophone and Anglicophone

00:29:01.340 together,

00:29:01.980 and Catholic and Protestant.

00:29:03.520 Just an enormous

00:29:04.480 contribution there.

00:29:06.260 And so you really

00:29:07.500 have to look at them

00:29:08.500 case by case.

00:29:10.000 I know you've

00:29:11.200 gone through this

00:29:12.140 in your own ordeal,

00:29:13.840 Rima,

00:29:14.120 which at True North

00:29:15.200 we've covered

00:29:15.940 and we don't have time

00:29:17.440 to rehash it in full here.

00:29:18.820 But the one thing

00:29:19.380 that you know

00:29:20.240 and we can observe here

00:29:21.320 is that once

00:29:22.000 the mob

00:29:23.200 or the class

00:29:24.260 that is driving the mob

00:29:25.860 has decided

00:29:26.640 that someone

00:29:27.280 is a bad person, 0.65

00:29:29.200 the facts

00:29:29.760 don't seem to matter.

00:29:30.940 And you see exactly

00:29:32.040 what Lynn

00:29:32.440 just described there.

00:29:33.380 Once we've decided

00:29:34.240 that this is our objective,

00:29:36.100 we'll get there

00:29:36.800 however we want

00:29:37.560 to get there.

00:29:41.100 Yes.

00:29:41.780 Did I miss the question?

00:29:43.080 Well, I didn't really ask one

00:29:45.000 but I'll add a question there

00:29:47.540 which is just

00:29:48.440 how do we combat that?

00:29:50.440 I mean,

00:29:50.640 how do you make

00:29:52.200 an assertion of truth

00:29:54.160 when there are

00:29:55.680 so many people

00:29:56.420 that don't seem

00:29:57.040 to care about truth

00:29:58.360 in these discussions?

00:29:59.980 I think coming back

00:30:01.200 to the start

00:30:01.980 of our conversation

00:30:03.040 with the facts

00:30:04.040 that Dr. McDonough

00:30:05.080 or Lynn said 0.99

00:30:05.960 that the facts

00:30:07.140 are important

00:30:08.000 the truth

00:30:09.160 seeking the truth

00:30:10.480 we are scientists

00:30:11.400 we do research

00:30:13.640 we have hypotheses

00:30:15.440 we want to test them

00:30:16.480 so coming back

00:30:18.200 to facts

00:30:19.140 but also

00:30:19.960 denouncing

00:30:21.380 censorship

00:30:22.320 when it's

00:30:23.180 toward anyone

00:30:24.300 people we don't

00:30:25.340 agree with

00:30:26.060 before

00:30:26.620 those whom we agree

00:30:27.940 with as a principle

00:30:29.040 same thing

00:30:29.980 for violence

00:30:30.760 so like

00:30:31.520 status

00:30:32.580 being torn down

00:30:35.220 that's a no-no

00:30:36.400 that's vandalism

00:30:37.780 or

00:30:38.540 buildings

00:30:39.780 like churches

00:30:40.420 not any building

00:30:41.360 it's a church

00:30:42.080 some people escaped

00:30:43.960 I remember a story

00:30:44.840 in Canada

00:30:45.300 escaped from Egypt

00:30:46.420 I think

00:30:46.980 a Coptic church

00:30:48.240 and to see their church

00:30:49.660 here in Canada

00:30:50.360 being vandalized

00:30:52.200 again

00:30:53.120 the emotions

00:30:53.920 and again

00:30:54.740 the guilt

00:30:56.080 and all this

00:30:56.940 we understand that

00:30:58.360 but

00:30:59.020 some things

00:31:00.300 are just

00:31:02.080 unacceptable

00:31:03.040 and we

00:31:04.000 should avoid

00:31:05.500 the double standards

00:31:06.500 as much as possible

00:31:08.180 I think

00:31:09.940 that's a very

00:31:11.220 very eloquent way

00:31:12.480 of putting it

00:31:13.480 because it is

00:31:14.340 Canada Day tomorrow

00:31:15.500 or again

00:31:16.320 Dominion Day

00:31:16.920 I have to just

00:31:17.840 always stick that in

00:31:18.680 anytime I say

00:31:19.280 Canada Day

00:31:19.880 I am going to ask

00:31:21.540 everyone on the panel

00:31:22.900 a question

00:31:23.660 which will be easier

00:31:24.680 for the latter two

00:31:25.960 because you'll have

00:31:26.800 a couple of moments

00:31:27.540 to think about it here

00:31:28.200 we'll start with you Mark

00:31:29.100 what's one thing

00:31:30.260 you absolutely

00:31:31.120 love about this country

00:31:32.380 well I love

00:31:34.980 I love its natural

00:31:36.220 beauty

00:31:36.780 so I live near

00:31:37.780 the Rocky Mountains

00:31:38.520 and for whatever

00:31:39.940 reason

00:31:40.320 there's a combination

00:31:41.280 of you know

00:31:42.100 when you get out

00:31:42.960 into the Rockies

00:31:43.580 and do some hiking

00:31:44.340 for me anyway

00:31:45.480 you feel Canadian

00:31:46.420 because it's just

00:31:48.200 you take a deep breath

00:31:49.240 you look at the

00:31:49.760 grandeur of this country

00:31:50.740 and you think

00:31:51.780 yes

00:31:52.140 this is worth

00:31:53.320 celebrating

00:31:53.820 so we can get

00:31:54.980 all philosophical

00:31:55.580 as I do

00:31:56.220 and celebrate

00:31:57.380 the achievements

00:31:58.440 of various people

00:31:59.720 in its history

00:32:00.260 and how we've built

00:32:00.940 this massive oak tree

00:32:02.220 that shelters

00:32:02.760 tens of millions

00:32:03.540 of people

00:32:03.980 beneath it now

00:32:04.780 and has

00:32:05.260 for a very long time

00:32:06.700 but there's something

00:32:07.700 about the nature

00:32:08.580 of Canada

00:32:09.020 that just

00:32:09.960 fills me up

00:32:11.040 with pride

00:32:12.260 and awe

00:32:12.880 alright

00:32:14.600 well that is

00:32:15.120 a lovely answer

00:32:16.040 and yes

00:32:16.300 nothing like that

00:32:17.040 mountain air

00:32:17.920 despite the weather

00:32:19.200 in your province

00:32:19.980 some of the year

00:32:21.220 Lynn

00:32:21.900 what would yours be

00:32:22.740 what's something

00:32:23.140 you love about Canada

00:32:24.100 well I won't go on

00:32:26.480 about canoe trips

00:32:27.280 but I do share

00:32:28.320 what Mark was saying

00:32:29.260 I would say

00:32:30.340 that as a Canadian

00:32:31.800 and a Canadian woman

00:32:32.920 and after all

00:32:33.580 we were brought up

00:32:34.200 to be inferior

00:32:34.820 to the guys

00:32:35.640 I went off

00:32:37.100 from having

00:32:37.660 gone to UBC

00:32:39.140 having grown up

00:32:40.420 in US Ministry

00:32:41.080 British Columbia

00:32:41.640 and I went off

00:32:42.740 to do my PhD

00:32:43.500 at the London School

00:32:44.200 of Economics

00:32:44.760 kind of the capital

00:32:45.960 of the world

00:32:46.540 London

00:32:46.960 and I felt

00:32:48.100 perfectly confident

00:32:49.420 you know

00:32:50.160 I was a Canadian

00:32:51.020 this is London

00:32:52.160 well

00:32:52.820 you know

00:32:53.340 I'm here

00:32:54.060 and I can cope

00:32:55.940 with it all

00:32:56.480 I thought

00:32:57.280 that I had

00:32:58.100 a good background

00:32:59.300 by being a Canadian

00:33:00.640 alright

00:33:02.820 wonderful

00:33:03.300 and we'll give you

00:33:04.020 the last word

00:33:04.640 Rima

00:33:04.900 I will add

00:33:06.820 to what

00:33:07.500 both of the

00:33:09.220 speakers have said

00:33:10.000 the winter

00:33:10.700 I love winter

00:33:11.680 but also definitely

00:33:13.020 that

00:33:13.340 men and women

00:33:15.100 are equal

00:33:15.780 we have a rule of law

00:33:17.200 hopefully we'll keep

00:33:17.960 habit for everyone

00:33:19.100 and

00:33:19.500 you know

00:33:21.000 all what is Canadian

00:33:22.060 in that sense

00:33:22.820 and the kindness

00:33:23.640 of people

00:33:24.360 we're so kind

00:33:25.320 to the point

00:33:25.900 that we think

00:33:26.680 we're the worst

00:33:27.520 races of the world

00:33:28.700 I think

00:33:29.400 well that is a

00:33:31.540 lovely lovely

00:33:32.500 note on which

00:33:33.280 to end

00:33:33.940 thank you

00:33:34.560 all of you

00:33:35.140 for coming on

00:33:36.660 and for sharing

00:33:37.840 your stories

00:33:38.460 in this wonderful

00:33:39.440 new book

00:33:39.880 the 1867 project

00:33:41.800 why Canada

00:33:42.740 should be cherished

00:33:43.740 not cancelled

00:33:44.340 you can get that

00:33:44.960 on Amazon

00:33:45.460 published by

00:33:46.180 the Aristotle

00:33:47.100 Foundation

00:33:47.960 Mark Mielke

00:33:48.680 Rima Azar

00:33:50.060 and Lynn

00:33:50.800 McDonald

00:33:51.220 do hold on

00:33:51.900 just a moment

00:33:52.360 once we wrap

00:33:52.980 but thank you

00:33:53.520 so much

00:33:54.040 we will talk

00:33:55.020 to you all

00:33:55.300 next week

00:33:55.780 on the Andrew

00:33:56.520 Lawton show

00:33:56.980 here on True

00:33:57.540 North

00:33:57.780 thank you

00:33:58.360 God bless

00:33:58.900 and happy

00:33:59.540 Canada

00:33:59.980 thanks for

00:34:00.520 listening to

00:34:01.020 the Andrew

00:34:01.420 Lawton show

00:34:02.020 support the

00:34:03.020 program by

00:34:03.540 donating to

00:34:04.120 True North

00:34:04.580 at

00:34:04.940 www.tnc.news

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Juno News - June 30, 2023

Why the activists who hate Canada are wrong

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