Juno News - Woke vs. anti-woke debate： Can the left and right coexist？

00:00:00.000 Canada Day is a touchy subject for some, and for diversity, equity and inclusion consultant Salam Debs, it was an opportunity to express views common amongst the social justice left.

00:00:11.760 You know how it goes, Canada is a country built on genocide and foundationally racist.

00:00:17.400 The statement was no doubt intended to provoke a reaction, and that it did.

00:00:23.120 Much of that reaction was vitriolic, to put it mildly.

00:00:27.520 But where does that leave us?

00:00:29.580 DEI advocates have noticed the rising pushback and are rather concerned about it.

00:00:34.800 My guest today is a recently tenured anti-oppressive education scholar at Wilfrid Laurier University.

00:00:41.940 Ardavan Izadirad teaches prospective educators on topics like decolonial theory, critical theory and diversity, equity and inclusion.

00:00:49.920 He recently published an article about the growing anti-DEI zeitgeist, and he joins me today to discuss the growing divisions between the left and the right,

00:00:57.960 and what we can do to build bridges.

00:01:00.380 We probably won't solve the problem today, but we'll certainly make an attempt at dialogue.

00:01:05.220 I'm Melanie Bennett.

00:01:06.740 This is Disrupted.

00:01:07.980 Hi, Ardavan.

00:01:18.060 Thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:19.860 Thanks for having me.

00:01:20.860 I think there is a lot that we might disagree on, we have in the past, but there is absolutely one thing that I think both you and I can completely 100% agree on,

00:01:31.860 is that racism isn't great, and we'd both like not to perpetuate it, right?

00:01:38.960 I think we could agree on that.

00:01:40.840 Definitely.

00:01:41.340 And just recently, over Canada Day, there's been some controversy over the concept of Canada being a settler colonial state

00:01:53.940 and possibly a genocidal state by a DEI trainer called Salem Debs, who has provided training for different school boards and at universities

00:02:05.020 and also had a racially segregated yoga class and so on and so forth, and these types of things appear to be on the rise in Canada

00:02:12.640 and more and more common in school boards.

00:02:14.640 But you are a scholar in the teacher colleges on topics like anti-pressive education, anti-colonial theory, or anti-racist DEI topics,

00:02:26.160 and so I thought it'd be really great to have you on to discuss what your reaction to that kind of post is from your perspective working in this field.

00:02:37.400 Yeah, no, thanks for the opportunity to have some dialogue about it.

00:02:40.740 I mean, what I think is there's room for multiple perspectives because different communities and identities are impacted by different histories.

00:02:49.460 I think I really try to avoid presenting a binary choice of it has to be this perspective or that because then it becomes about debating and not dialogue and discussion.

00:03:01.500 I think when you think of the history of Indigenous people in Canada and residential schools, of course, it's a dark history, and it does have some intergenerational impact,

00:03:10.880 but when I also think of immigrants and what it means to come to Canada and start fresh, that's also a different perspective for them.

00:03:19.660 And so I think the goal should be to discuss all of those perspectives and really say, how do we make our institutions better?

00:03:27.460 How do we make Canada better while recognizing some of the dark history, but what we need to do to move ahead, to heal, to reconcile?

00:03:36.160 And at the end of the day, I think another thing we also agree on is we want our institutions to be better because they're not achieving to their full potential

00:03:44.320 and serving the needs of all the students and the stakeholders.

00:03:47.300 Yeah, I completely agree with you on that.

00:03:50.460 I would like the institutions to be better, both the university and the K-12 schooling system.

00:03:54.820 It's obviously the future.

00:03:55.860 It's what's educating young people.

00:03:57.580 But you talked about wanting dialogue with multiple different perspectives that aren't binary.

00:04:04.400 I mean, I hear this quite a lot in the areas of DEI and anti-oppression about not being binary.

00:04:10.320 But the thing that I come across and the thing that many people who are critical of these ideas come across is that it does become binary.

00:04:19.260 A person who is critical of that, recently I wrote about a training that happened at a school board and the CBC.

00:04:24.820 Because I criticized critical race theory on its merits, I was essentially accused in that article of perpetuating white supremacy or religious extremism and so on and so forth.

00:04:34.980 And so it kind of does become binary for those who criticize it.

00:04:38.420 And as a person, so how would you react to that when that is kind of what critics are trying to do is engage in that dialogue and then get rebuffed on the basis of being called whatever name to silence us?

00:04:52.100 Yeah, so I think, I mean, that's a question I grapple with all the time.

00:04:56.500 And that's kind of some of the things I'm writing about now.

00:04:59.340 What I think is we kind of have to start with one, of course, the conversations have to be at a respectful level where people feel safe or their, you know, their human rights that are protected by the inter-human rights code are not violated.

00:05:11.880 But I think beyond that, I disagree with the cancel culture pressures that have kind of created this.

00:05:19.800 And on the other extreme end, we have like the super anti-wokeness.

00:05:23.520 And I think both extreme ends of the spectrum silence critique.

00:05:27.920 And when you silence critique, how can you ever have dialogue?

00:05:30.800 And I think a great example is, you know, we met at an event, but we built relationship and we've had so many conversations and we found some common ground around some things we agree with and some things we disagree with.

00:05:44.040 But it's allowed us to kind of continue those conversations in a meaningful way.

00:05:48.380 So I think a lot of times when that relationship is not there and people have been personally impacted, I kind of call it the pain point in their lives.

00:05:56.780 It really drives them to have that single perspective because of that harm and it sticks with them.

00:06:04.500 And we almost have to take some time to come outside of our own experience, really, regardless of which side of the spectrum you are in terms of what you're advocating for and say, why does this person feel that way?

00:06:17.020 What is it rooted in? And when we start the conversation from there, at least it allows us to move forward a little bit more constructive rather than bashing each other and silencing a critique that maybe is not popular.

00:06:30.440 That's also something that I would agree with because I wrote an article yesterday and it received a lot of attention in the comments and many of the comments I felt were a little bit on the a little taking a little bit too far in how people are responding to that.

00:06:47.660 But at the same time, it's becoming increasingly difficult to criticize ideas on their merit if their ideas that are rooted in anti-oppression and DEI and so on and so forth, because the normal response from people who advocate for the same thing as you do is to shoot people down by calling names or with Salem Deb's text, for example, or post.

00:07:11.900 It's very provocative and it does feel like it's done on purpose to get a reaction from people.

00:07:16.340 And then, unfortunately, that reaction comes and then, well, look, there's more racism. Look at that.

00:07:20.940 And so I'm not sure how to rectify that.

00:07:25.260 Yeah, I mean, for me, I think what I've tried to do in order to kind of mitigate some of this is I've really shifted to say we need to invest in kind of what I call data-driven accountability and measuring impact.

00:07:39.460 So and it really starts with saying what are the needs of a school or a community?

00:07:43.740 So if they're investing in, let's say, bringing in a consultant or in a specific program, there has to be a follow-up in terms of how is the impact being measured in terms of benefiting the community?

00:07:56.880 And I think we don't get to that stage enough because if we were to measure everything and the impact, then we can say, hey, is this community or this school, is it better off than it was a year ago, than two years ago?

00:08:10.980 And what are the KPIs, the key performance indicators that are telling us qualitatively or quantitatively that things are getting better?

00:08:19.560 And so I think we get caught up so many times talking about, you know, is this person have good intentions or bad intentions?

00:08:26.540 And for me, it's irrelevant. It's about the impact. And it doesn't matter if you're black or white or belong to the marginalized community, you can have a positive impact.

00:08:36.740 But we need to invest in measuring that and then adapting and tweaking and keep mapping out those unmet needs and trying to meet them.

00:08:45.140 Yeah. So again, I agree with you on that. I think there does need to be better tracking and data, but we often find that there's a large resistance to that sort of approach.

00:08:55.200 And it could be because for maybe for some people, they feel that that is a Eurocentric way of knowing and, you know, we want to move away from those.

00:09:02.260 Or for other people, it might be because they heavily use qualitative over quantitative data.

00:09:09.540 Or even when the quantitative data gets used, often it's a hypothesis has been made that can't really be falsified.

00:09:16.240 Like, for example, in disparity tracking, the idea is that if there is a difference, then it absolutely is systemic racism.

00:09:24.260 There's no other investigation. So we're not asking a question that can be falsified by potentially other factors.

00:09:29.980 And so how would you propose addressing these data problems?

00:09:33.420 Yeah, I mean, there's lots of nuances involved, but I think we need both, you know, qualitative data is good, but you also need the quantitative data.

00:09:43.000 We need the large data sets, but sometimes you need the smaller data sets because it's really hard to depending on the population we're talking about.

00:09:52.160 But once again, I think it comes back to the dialogue of how do we map these out as a collective?

00:09:58.880 And unfortunately, like you said, because of the resistance on both sides, too many times the conversation doesn't even get there.

00:10:06.920 And what I worry about is a lot of times both sides, when they are at, whether they go to events, they're kind of preaching to the choir.

00:10:15.260 It's to the people who've already bought into that perspective.

00:10:17.720 And so I challenge myself and I want to challenge, you know, the listeners and the audiences is how do we enter spaces where we might disagree with people, not to debate them, but to understand how do we work together?

00:10:31.340 Because I truly believe by working against each other, institutions will not get better.

00:10:37.200 And so we have to kind of find, even if you're the small common points of where to start and people have different strengths, right?

00:10:46.080 Like pour your strength into where you're good at the community that you have the relationship, because if that relationship is not there and the trust is not there, people are skeptical and it kind of feeds into the divisiveness.

00:10:58.700 I have to challenge you on that bit, because there are many, many people who do want to engage and are constantly and over many years rebuffed, you know, accused of things like white supremacy or engaging in whiteness or bigotry or so on and so forth for simply wanting to engage and having a difference of opinion.

00:11:17.940 And that is largely coming from the social justice crowd so much so that many people who were previously on the left or even progressive left, and I've known NDP voters or ex-NDP voters, you know, defecting entirely because of the intolerance on the social justice side.

00:11:35.320 And so I would actually throw that back at you and saying, what are you guys doing to be better at reaching out?

00:11:40.160 Now, I know you are, and I appreciate that.

00:11:42.300 And I'm going to give you respect for actually coming on my show.

00:11:44.760 I think it's fantastic, because that's exactly what I think is necessary, but it's extremely uncommon.

00:11:52.400 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as the recent article I wrote, I think EDI in a lot of ways, because it was done in such a performative way by institutions, it has created and breeded this ground of resentment.

00:12:07.140 I think if equity work is done in an authentic way that really is about what are the needs and how do we strategically meet it, we would be mitigating some of these tensions and people won't be feeling so strong about being wronged or silenced.

00:12:24.140 I think the silencing happens on both ends.

00:12:28.720 There's good people and bad people or good apples and bad apples within each of the movements.

00:12:34.620 So I think I would say we have to go back to measuring impact, right?

00:12:39.520 Like if somebody is saying this EDI work.

00:12:42.500 So I have to stop you there, and I'm going to actually just go back to, but how do you address the intolerance on the social justice left?

00:12:50.240 Because the intolerance on the right is growing, yes, but in direct response to provocations and intolerance from the social justice left.

00:12:58.020 And so how does that get addressed?

00:12:59.740 Because in my view, this is where the problem is coming from.

00:13:02.960 This is where the increasing tension is actually stemming from.

00:13:05.940 Yeah, I mean, while I can't control the larger movement, for me, I would say on a personal level is I've kind of invested my time and energy in the communities that I'm involved.

00:13:19.280 And I think if folks do that, it might be a better emotional investment of their time because people are, of course, going to be involved in issues that often impact their lives directly.

00:13:28.900 I know, for example, if you start scrolling on various social media platforms, you can go down a rabbit hole and it can, like you said, lines get crossed, right?

00:13:40.040 It can become very personal.

00:13:42.200 And so this kind of spiritually kind of takes you down.

00:13:46.700 And so I think what I've done to help me is I kind of pour the energy into the communities that I've involved and ensuring there's an impact.

00:13:55.420 And when you see that impact, and sometimes you don't really see it on a large scale because we're kind of talking about the macro, we take it back to the micro on the day-to-day and the relationships.

00:14:05.380 And that's where, you know, we might not save, I always say we might not save the world, but you know when you've kind of changed one child or one youth's trajectory of life, they know and they appreciate that.

00:14:15.660 And that's meaningful work.

00:14:16.720 So I try to take it back to the micro.

00:14:18.820 But, of course, having these conversations, having platforms that facilitate that is important.

00:14:24.900 And in the last two years, I've really tried to intentionally invite people like how you've invited me to model this because it's become so rare.

00:14:35.160 And I really worry that if we don't continue to have these conversations, it will even get worse.

00:14:41.600 I also worry about that because I see an increasing amount of tensions between increasingly polarized sides and trying to find ways to understand each other is very, very difficult.

00:14:56.660 And I do worry about some of the growing tensions.

00:14:59.140 But, yeah, I appreciate that you're willing to have those conversations.

00:15:02.140 And I think that it's really important for us to get into what I want to get into a little bit about what you said about DEI being performative.

00:15:09.360 And I think that that is felt on, I guess, the conservative right.

00:15:14.080 But it's also something that I feel that is a growing feeling on the social justice left.

00:15:19.320 But the people calling for that on the social justice or saying that it's performative that I've come across, some of these people like Salem Debs, who herself in a YouTube panel was talking about how it needed to be even more extreme and even more radical than it actually was.

00:15:34.580 She's calling for revolution. 0.95

00:15:35.800 She's calling for, you know, a decolonial revolution and things like that.

00:15:41.940 So I don't know where we're going with that.

00:15:45.760 And, yeah, maybe you have a perspective on it.

00:15:47.860 Yeah, so for me, I mean, I don't know this person personally or I've followed their work.

00:15:52.760 But for me, something that I've really tried to emphasize, I would say post-COVID, is we need solution-oriented criticism.

00:16:01.140 So regardless of whether you're the left or the right, of course, there's lots of criticism.

00:16:05.800 I challenge people with the criticism, also share practical solutions, because that's what the conversation often doesn't get to.

00:16:15.320 We can say white supremacy, colonialism, you know, critical pedagogy is bad and all of those things.

00:16:22.780 So now let's talk about, well, what does the alternative look like in a way that everybody's needs are met?

00:16:29.100 Or, you know, and I think the conversation sometimes too many times doesn't get to that part.

00:16:35.020 And we're just debating, I'm right and you're wrong.

00:16:37.560 And so I really advocate for solution-oriented scholarship of, hey, what are some innovative case studies?

00:16:44.660 You know, I do quite a bit of work at the nonprofit sectors, working with a nonprofit called YACE.

00:16:50.160 And they do some innovative work.

00:16:52.220 And I think, for example, schools need to work with nonprofits and communities much better because often they work in silos.

00:16:59.120 And that way, collectively, they can meet the needs of the community.

00:17:02.800 Because a lot of the programming happens in the evenings and weekends that impacts youth and parents.

00:17:08.160 Yeah, when we talk about inclusion, quite a lot of the time that inclusion excludes an awful lot of people that are considered part of the dominant group or the hegemony, whatever you want to call it.

00:17:23.060 And you're talking about building bridges with everybody based on their needs.

00:17:28.580 But that would imply that it would also have to include a diversity of criticism and ideas from those considered to be part of the dominant group or the hegemonic group.

00:17:38.080 And I don't know how your colleagues or even yourself would feel about that.

00:17:42.920 Well, I think not everybody in the same field has to think the same way.

00:17:46.620 I do think there is room for criticism.

00:17:48.760 I think the how, the strategy is very important.

00:17:53.820 And I think, you know, I use the word thriving communities because, you know, if crime goes down, property values go up, people come out more.

00:18:01.720 So I very, very, very disagree with this zero-sum game that sometimes is presented in the EDI space of, like, you've got to give up your power or give up your privilege.

00:18:14.200 I don't think anybody wants to do that because everybody works hard.

00:18:16.680 But that's a natural outcome of that way of thinking because if you think about people in terms of groups, they are collective of their identities based on group.

00:18:25.860 Then you're kind of naturally creating the situation where one group is going to have one kind of needs and another group is going to have another type of needs.

00:18:32.960 And sometimes those needs are going to clash.

00:18:34.580 And so people are always kind of end up fighting for, you know, for whatever power or, you know, less power for this one, more power for that one.

00:18:42.800 Can you, I mean, do you not see that this is, seems to be a natural outcome of this group-based thinking?

00:18:47.680 Well, what I think is we have to shift that because I think the needs of different, if you address the need, let's say we're talking about poverty.

00:18:55.740 If you address the needs of what is causing someone, let's say the youth of today and this trend is happening, they're getting involved in carjackings and robberies.

00:19:05.060 If you focus on what is causing that, maybe it's rooted in unemployment, the education system, the values, the housing, that actually benefits the whole community, the rich and the poor, because people feel safer and then people are going to interact with each other.

00:19:22.640 And, you know, there might be more infrastructure and investment into the community.

00:19:26.640 So I think we have to connect the dots better.

00:19:29.700 And this kind of goes back to what we've been talking about is people are clashing in silos, having tunnel vision.

00:19:35.060 And it's like, here is the, what I call the school community ecosystem.

00:19:38.700 Here's the ecosystem.

00:19:39.960 And here is how we are related directly and indirectly.

00:19:43.140 And now what resources do we have or what resources do we need to get?

00:19:46.940 So it benefits also within my paradigm, I don't want you to give up power.

00:19:51.640 It's how do you use your power or advantage of, hey, maybe it's resources we bring to the community.

00:19:58.480 Maybe you have connections and infrastructure we can secure that helps the school, that helps everybody thrive.

00:20:04.420 So I think the paradigm of thriving communities is that everybody has a role in it.

00:20:09.480 And it starts with what can you help with, like realistically and practically, not theoretically.

00:20:15.360 Yeah, I mean, it sounds great.

00:20:16.580 And, you know, if it works like that, I would be on board with you.

00:20:21.700 But the reality is at the minute that the social justice way of thinking has been predominant, certainly in education for at least the last 10 years and increasingly so.

00:20:31.120 And the results are not great.

00:20:33.820 The crime is going up.

00:20:35.180 The violence is going up.

00:20:36.620 The tensions between different groups is going up.

00:20:39.980 People don't, you know, mental health is not improving.

00:20:42.940 So this is where I get confused.

00:20:47.940 It's like when you try then to criticize some of this, maybe this is not working out the way that you think it is.

00:20:53.740 And maybe it might actually because of the theories that are behind it, then it's impossible to engage.

00:20:59.200 Because now we've embedded it in the human rights code.

00:21:01.900 Now we've embedded it in different policies.

00:21:04.040 And merely talking about it gets some parents even, you know, removed entirely from things like delegations.

00:21:08.940 Yeah, well, I think it's unfair to blame a lot of those complex issues exclusively on, let's say, EDI movement.

00:21:18.000 But I think we have to go back to holding people accountable based on impact and data.

00:21:24.640 Well, it's removing the consequences, removing the boundaries, moving the barriers, removing the expectation that everybody has to behave in a certain way does lead to those problems.

00:21:33.620 But I don't think there's many people in the EDI stance that don't say we should be removing expectations, right?

00:21:42.500 Like, let's say, if you give a specific example, let's say we look at school suspensions, right?

00:21:47.520 I mean, historically, we had zero tolerance policies, which was like, if you stole, you get this.

00:21:53.020 If you brought a gun to school, you get this.

00:21:55.220 But we know this was not being implemented in an effective way.

00:22:01.800 And so I think that's where one part of the problem is, is how do we hold implementation pieces accountable and who does it?

00:22:09.440 And then it shifted to progressive discipline.

00:22:12.040 And I would say rightfully so, where it's like, hey, you can't go zero to 100 when it comes to suspension.

00:22:17.360 What have you done as a school principal around communication, prevention, warning?

00:22:22.780 Like, it has to be progressive, right?

00:22:25.420 And so I think we need that type of accountability when it comes to the school boards, when it comes to higher ed institutions.

00:22:31.720 Right, but we'll just talk about that for a second, though.

00:22:35.060 The violence has gotten worse under the progressive discipline.

00:22:38.240 That's kind of what I'm getting at, is that if it were working, it would have gotten better.

00:22:41.820 But it's not getting better.

00:22:43.060 It's getting worse.

00:22:44.460 But I think the violence in school versus the violence outside of school are very complex things.

00:22:52.200 And then I think we add, are the communities where the violence is happening?

00:22:57.360 I can guarantee if we map out which schools have the suspensions, they are in 90% or above are in low-income communities.

00:23:05.320 And so the question is, are the needs of the community where the school is situated are being met with infrastructure and resources?

00:23:13.360 Because we cannot suspend our way or be soft, regardless of whichever approach you take,

00:23:19.460 in solving that issue without saying, what are the needs of the students?

00:23:23.620 Are we meeting them?

00:23:25.580 And what data set is telling us if we're meeting those needs?

00:23:29.780 Yeah, I could continue this conversation on for quite a long time, but unfortunately, we've run out of time.

00:23:36.380 But I would like to thank you again for coming on to my show.

00:23:39.520 I appreciate that you're willing to engage in difficult dialogue.

00:23:43.600 And yeah, thank you so much for joining me today.

00:23:46.420 Thank you for the opportunity.

00:23:47.720 And I look forward to many of our conversations in the near future to continue these and find solutions.

00:23:53.600 Thanks, Aldevan.

00:23:55.560 Take care.

00:23:56.760 Regardless of what you thought of our conversation, whether you agreed or disagreed, one thing is worth celebrating.

00:24:03.920 Two people with very different views advocating for very different political ideas were able to have a civil discussion.

00:24:12.360 And that's something that's sorely lacking in Canada right now.

00:24:15.180 The problem won't be fixed overnight, but I, for one, remain hopeful that we can at least try to figure it out.

00:24:23.060 Thanks for sticking around to the end.

00:24:24.960 And if you like this episode, please consider liking and subscribing.

00:24:28.180 And who knows, maybe this one conversation might lead to others.

00:24:32.940 I'm Melanie Bennett.

00:24:34.320 This is Disrupted.

00:24:35.460 This is Disrupted.

Juno News - July 04, 2025

Woke vs. anti-woke debate： Can the left and right coexist？

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