00:00:00.000Canada Day is a touchy subject for some, and for diversity, equity and inclusion consultant Salam Debs, it was an opportunity to express views common amongst the social justice left.
00:00:11.760You know how it goes, Canada is a country built on genocide and foundationally racist.
00:00:17.400The statement was no doubt intended to provoke a reaction, and that it did.
00:00:23.120Much of that reaction was vitriolic, to put it mildly.
00:00:29.580DEI advocates have noticed the rising pushback and are rather concerned about it.
00:00:34.800My guest today is a recently tenured anti-oppressive education scholar at Wilfrid Laurier University.
00:00:41.940Ardavan Izadirad teaches prospective educators on topics like decolonial theory, critical theory and diversity, equity and inclusion.
00:00:49.920He recently published an article about the growing anti-DEI zeitgeist, and he joins me today to discuss the growing divisions between the left and the right,
00:01:20.860I think there is a lot that we might disagree on, we have in the past, but there is absolutely one thing that I think both you and I can completely 100% agree on,
00:01:31.860is that racism isn't great, and we'd both like not to perpetuate it, right?
00:01:41.340And just recently, over Canada Day, there's been some controversy over the concept of Canada being a settler colonial state
00:01:53.940and possibly a genocidal state by a DEI trainer called Salem Debs, who has provided training for different school boards and at universities
00:02:05.020and also had a racially segregated yoga class and so on and so forth, and these types of things appear to be on the rise in Canada
00:02:12.640and more and more common in school boards.
00:02:14.640But you are a scholar in the teacher colleges on topics like anti-pressive education, anti-colonial theory, or anti-racist DEI topics,
00:02:26.160and so I thought it'd be really great to have you on to discuss what your reaction to that kind of post is from your perspective working in this field.
00:02:37.400Yeah, no, thanks for the opportunity to have some dialogue about it.
00:02:40.740I mean, what I think is there's room for multiple perspectives because different communities and identities are impacted by different histories.
00:02:49.460I think I really try to avoid presenting a binary choice of it has to be this perspective or that because then it becomes about debating and not dialogue and discussion.
00:03:01.500I think when you think of the history of Indigenous people in Canada and residential schools, of course, it's a dark history, and it does have some intergenerational impact,
00:03:10.880but when I also think of immigrants and what it means to come to Canada and start fresh, that's also a different perspective for them.
00:03:19.660And so I think the goal should be to discuss all of those perspectives and really say, how do we make our institutions better?
00:03:27.460How do we make Canada better while recognizing some of the dark history, but what we need to do to move ahead, to heal, to reconcile?
00:03:36.160And at the end of the day, I think another thing we also agree on is we want our institutions to be better because they're not achieving to their full potential
00:03:44.320and serving the needs of all the students and the stakeholders.
00:03:47.300Yeah, I completely agree with you on that.
00:03:50.460I would like the institutions to be better, both the university and the K-12 schooling system.
00:03:57.580But you talked about wanting dialogue with multiple different perspectives that aren't binary.
00:04:04.400I mean, I hear this quite a lot in the areas of DEI and anti-oppression about not being binary.
00:04:10.320But the thing that I come across and the thing that many people who are critical of these ideas come across is that it does become binary.
00:04:19.260A person who is critical of that, recently I wrote about a training that happened at a school board and the CBC.
00:04:24.820Because I criticized critical race theory on its merits, I was essentially accused in that article of perpetuating white supremacy or religious extremism and so on and so forth.
00:04:34.980And so it kind of does become binary for those who criticize it.
00:04:38.420And as a person, so how would you react to that when that is kind of what critics are trying to do is engage in that dialogue and then get rebuffed on the basis of being called whatever name to silence us?
00:04:52.100Yeah, so I think, I mean, that's a question I grapple with all the time.
00:04:56.500And that's kind of some of the things I'm writing about now.
00:04:59.340What I think is we kind of have to start with one, of course, the conversations have to be at a respectful level where people feel safe or their, you know, their human rights that are protected by the inter-human rights code are not violated.
00:05:11.880But I think beyond that, I disagree with the cancel culture pressures that have kind of created this.
00:05:19.800And on the other extreme end, we have like the super anti-wokeness.
00:05:23.520And I think both extreme ends of the spectrum silence critique.
00:05:27.920And when you silence critique, how can you ever have dialogue?
00:05:30.800And I think a great example is, you know, we met at an event, but we built relationship and we've had so many conversations and we found some common ground around some things we agree with and some things we disagree with.
00:05:44.040But it's allowed us to kind of continue those conversations in a meaningful way.
00:05:48.380So I think a lot of times when that relationship is not there and people have been personally impacted, I kind of call it the pain point in their lives.
00:05:56.780It really drives them to have that single perspective because of that harm and it sticks with them.
00:06:04.500And we almost have to take some time to come outside of our own experience, really, regardless of which side of the spectrum you are in terms of what you're advocating for and say, why does this person feel that way?
00:06:17.020What is it rooted in? And when we start the conversation from there, at least it allows us to move forward a little bit more constructive rather than bashing each other and silencing a critique that maybe is not popular.
00:06:30.440That's also something that I would agree with because I wrote an article yesterday and it received a lot of attention in the comments and many of the comments I felt were a little bit on the a little taking a little bit too far in how people are responding to that.
00:06:47.660But at the same time, it's becoming increasingly difficult to criticize ideas on their merit if their ideas that are rooted in anti-oppression and DEI and so on and so forth, because the normal response from people who advocate for the same thing as you do is to shoot people down by calling names or with Salem Deb's text, for example, or post.
00:07:11.900It's very provocative and it does feel like it's done on purpose to get a reaction from people.
00:07:16.340And then, unfortunately, that reaction comes and then, well, look, there's more racism. Look at that.
00:07:20.940And so I'm not sure how to rectify that.
00:07:25.260Yeah, I mean, for me, I think what I've tried to do in order to kind of mitigate some of this is I've really shifted to say we need to invest in kind of what I call data-driven accountability and measuring impact.
00:07:39.460So and it really starts with saying what are the needs of a school or a community?
00:07:43.740So if they're investing in, let's say, bringing in a consultant or in a specific program, there has to be a follow-up in terms of how is the impact being measured in terms of benefiting the community?
00:07:56.880And I think we don't get to that stage enough because if we were to measure everything and the impact, then we can say, hey, is this community or this school, is it better off than it was a year ago, than two years ago?
00:08:10.980And what are the KPIs, the key performance indicators that are telling us qualitatively or quantitatively that things are getting better?
00:08:19.560And so I think we get caught up so many times talking about, you know, is this person have good intentions or bad intentions?
00:08:26.540And for me, it's irrelevant. It's about the impact. And it doesn't matter if you're black or white or belong to the marginalized community, you can have a positive impact.
00:08:36.740But we need to invest in measuring that and then adapting and tweaking and keep mapping out those unmet needs and trying to meet them.
00:08:45.140Yeah. So again, I agree with you on that. I think there does need to be better tracking and data, but we often find that there's a large resistance to that sort of approach.
00:08:55.200And it could be because for maybe for some people, they feel that that is a Eurocentric way of knowing and, you know, we want to move away from those.
00:09:02.260Or for other people, it might be because they heavily use qualitative over quantitative data.
00:09:09.540Or even when the quantitative data gets used, often it's a hypothesis has been made that can't really be falsified.
00:09:16.240Like, for example, in disparity tracking, the idea is that if there is a difference, then it absolutely is systemic racism.
00:09:24.260There's no other investigation. So we're not asking a question that can be falsified by potentially other factors.
00:09:29.980And so how would you propose addressing these data problems?
00:09:33.420Yeah, I mean, there's lots of nuances involved, but I think we need both, you know, qualitative data is good, but you also need the quantitative data.
00:09:43.000We need the large data sets, but sometimes you need the smaller data sets because it's really hard to depending on the population we're talking about.
00:09:52.160But once again, I think it comes back to the dialogue of how do we map these out as a collective?
00:09:58.880And unfortunately, like you said, because of the resistance on both sides, too many times the conversation doesn't even get there.
00:10:06.920And what I worry about is a lot of times both sides, when they are at, whether they go to events, they're kind of preaching to the choir.
00:10:15.260It's to the people who've already bought into that perspective.
00:10:17.720And so I challenge myself and I want to challenge, you know, the listeners and the audiences is how do we enter spaces where we might disagree with people, not to debate them, but to understand how do we work together?
00:10:31.340Because I truly believe by working against each other, institutions will not get better.
00:10:37.200And so we have to kind of find, even if you're the small common points of where to start and people have different strengths, right?
00:10:46.080Like pour your strength into where you're good at the community that you have the relationship, because if that relationship is not there and the trust is not there, people are skeptical and it kind of feeds into the divisiveness.
00:10:58.700I have to challenge you on that bit, because there are many, many people who do want to engage and are constantly and over many years rebuffed, you know, accused of things like white supremacy or engaging in whiteness or bigotry or so on and so forth for simply wanting to engage and having a difference of opinion.
00:11:17.940And that is largely coming from the social justice crowd so much so that many people who were previously on the left or even progressive left, and I've known NDP voters or ex-NDP voters, you know, defecting entirely because of the intolerance on the social justice side.
00:11:35.320And so I would actually throw that back at you and saying, what are you guys doing to be better at reaching out?
00:11:40.160Now, I know you are, and I appreciate that.
00:11:42.300And I'm going to give you respect for actually coming on my show.
00:11:44.760I think it's fantastic, because that's exactly what I think is necessary, but it's extremely uncommon.
00:11:52.400Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as the recent article I wrote, I think EDI in a lot of ways, because it was done in such a performative way by institutions, it has created and breeded this ground of resentment.
00:12:07.140I think if equity work is done in an authentic way that really is about what are the needs and how do we strategically meet it, we would be mitigating some of these tensions and people won't be feeling so strong about being wronged or silenced.
00:12:24.140I think the silencing happens on both ends.
00:12:28.720There's good people and bad people or good apples and bad apples within each of the movements.
00:12:34.620So I think I would say we have to go back to measuring impact, right?
00:12:39.520Like if somebody is saying this EDI work.
00:12:42.500So I have to stop you there, and I'm going to actually just go back to, but how do you address the intolerance on the social justice left?
00:12:50.240Because the intolerance on the right is growing, yes, but in direct response to provocations and intolerance from the social justice left.
00:12:59.740Because in my view, this is where the problem is coming from.
00:13:02.960This is where the increasing tension is actually stemming from.
00:13:05.940Yeah, I mean, while I can't control the larger movement, for me, I would say on a personal level is I've kind of invested my time and energy in the communities that I'm involved.
00:13:19.280And I think if folks do that, it might be a better emotional investment of their time because people are, of course, going to be involved in issues that often impact their lives directly.
00:13:28.900I know, for example, if you start scrolling on various social media platforms, you can go down a rabbit hole and it can, like you said, lines get crossed, right?
00:13:42.200And so this kind of spiritually kind of takes you down.
00:13:46.700And so I think what I've done to help me is I kind of pour the energy into the communities that I've involved and ensuring there's an impact.
00:13:55.420And when you see that impact, and sometimes you don't really see it on a large scale because we're kind of talking about the macro, we take it back to the micro on the day-to-day and the relationships.
00:14:05.380And that's where, you know, we might not save, I always say we might not save the world, but you know when you've kind of changed one child or one youth's trajectory of life, they know and they appreciate that.
00:14:16.720So I try to take it back to the micro.
00:14:18.820But, of course, having these conversations, having platforms that facilitate that is important.
00:14:24.900And in the last two years, I've really tried to intentionally invite people like how you've invited me to model this because it's become so rare.
00:14:35.160And I really worry that if we don't continue to have these conversations, it will even get worse.
00:14:41.600I also worry about that because I see an increasing amount of tensions between increasingly polarized sides and trying to find ways to understand each other is very, very difficult.
00:14:56.660And I do worry about some of the growing tensions.
00:14:59.140But, yeah, I appreciate that you're willing to have those conversations.
00:15:02.140And I think that it's really important for us to get into what I want to get into a little bit about what you said about DEI being performative.
00:15:09.360And I think that that is felt on, I guess, the conservative right.
00:15:14.080But it's also something that I feel that is a growing feeling on the social justice left.
00:15:19.320But the people calling for that on the social justice or saying that it's performative that I've come across, some of these people like Salem Debs, who herself in a YouTube panel was talking about how it needed to be even more extreme and even more radical than it actually was.
00:16:52.220And I think, for example, schools need to work with nonprofits and communities much better because often they work in silos.
00:16:59.120And that way, collectively, they can meet the needs of the community.
00:17:02.800Because a lot of the programming happens in the evenings and weekends that impacts youth and parents.
00:17:08.160Yeah, when we talk about inclusion, quite a lot of the time that inclusion excludes an awful lot of people that are considered part of the dominant group or the hegemony, whatever you want to call it.
00:17:23.060And you're talking about building bridges with everybody based on their needs.
00:17:28.580But that would imply that it would also have to include a diversity of criticism and ideas from those considered to be part of the dominant group or the hegemonic group.
00:17:38.080And I don't know how your colleagues or even yourself would feel about that.
00:17:42.920Well, I think not everybody in the same field has to think the same way.
00:17:46.620I do think there is room for criticism.
00:17:48.760I think the how, the strategy is very important.
00:17:53.820And I think, you know, I use the word thriving communities because, you know, if crime goes down, property values go up, people come out more.
00:18:01.720So I very, very, very disagree with this zero-sum game that sometimes is presented in the EDI space of, like, you've got to give up your power or give up your privilege.
00:18:14.200I don't think anybody wants to do that because everybody works hard.
00:18:16.680But that's a natural outcome of that way of thinking because if you think about people in terms of groups, they are collective of their identities based on group.
00:18:25.860Then you're kind of naturally creating the situation where one group is going to have one kind of needs and another group is going to have another type of needs.
00:18:32.960And sometimes those needs are going to clash.
00:18:34.580And so people are always kind of end up fighting for, you know, for whatever power or, you know, less power for this one, more power for that one.
00:18:42.800Can you, I mean, do you not see that this is, seems to be a natural outcome of this group-based thinking?
00:18:47.680Well, what I think is we have to shift that because I think the needs of different, if you address the need, let's say we're talking about poverty.
00:18:55.740If you address the needs of what is causing someone, let's say the youth of today and this trend is happening, they're getting involved in carjackings and robberies.
00:19:05.060If you focus on what is causing that, maybe it's rooted in unemployment, the education system, the values, the housing, that actually benefits the whole community, the rich and the poor, because people feel safer and then people are going to interact with each other.
00:19:22.640And, you know, there might be more infrastructure and investment into the community.
00:19:26.640So I think we have to connect the dots better.
00:19:29.700And this kind of goes back to what we've been talking about is people are clashing in silos, having tunnel vision.
00:19:35.060And it's like, here is the, what I call the school community ecosystem.
00:20:16.580And, you know, if it works like that, I would be on board with you.
00:20:21.700But the reality is at the minute that the social justice way of thinking has been predominant, certainly in education for at least the last 10 years and increasingly so.
00:20:47.940It's like when you try then to criticize some of this, maybe this is not working out the way that you think it is.
00:20:53.740And maybe it might actually because of the theories that are behind it, then it's impossible to engage.
00:20:59.200Because now we've embedded it in the human rights code.
00:21:01.900Now we've embedded it in different policies.
00:21:04.040And merely talking about it gets some parents even, you know, removed entirely from things like delegations.
00:21:08.940Yeah, well, I think it's unfair to blame a lot of those complex issues exclusively on, let's say, EDI movement.
00:21:18.000But I think we have to go back to holding people accountable based on impact and data.
00:21:24.640Well, it's removing the consequences, removing the boundaries, moving the barriers, removing the expectation that everybody has to behave in a certain way does lead to those problems.
00:21:33.620But I don't think there's many people in the EDI stance that don't say we should be removing expectations, right?
00:21:42.500Like, let's say, if you give a specific example, let's say we look at school suspensions, right?
00:21:47.520I mean, historically, we had zero tolerance policies, which was like, if you stole, you get this.
00:21:53.020If you brought a gun to school, you get this.
00:21:55.220But we know this was not being implemented in an effective way.
00:22:01.800And so I think that's where one part of the problem is, is how do we hold implementation pieces accountable and who does it?
00:22:09.440And then it shifted to progressive discipline.
00:22:12.040And I would say rightfully so, where it's like, hey, you can't go zero to 100 when it comes to suspension.
00:22:17.360What have you done as a school principal around communication, prevention, warning?
00:22:22.780Like, it has to be progressive, right?
00:22:25.420And so I think we need that type of accountability when it comes to the school boards, when it comes to higher ed institutions.
00:22:31.720Right, but we'll just talk about that for a second, though.
00:22:35.060The violence has gotten worse under the progressive discipline.
00:22:38.240That's kind of what I'm getting at, is that if it were working, it would have gotten better.