JustPearlyThings - October 10, 2023


HEATED Debate On Marriage With Piers Morgan


Episode Stats

Length

11 minutes

Words per Minute

200.02328

Word Count

2,291

Sentence Count

179

Misogynist Sentences

25

Hate Speech Sentences

13


Summary

Is divorce becoming more common in today's culture wars? On one side, there are feminists rejecting a dating concept, on the other, so-called 'Tradwives' who think it binds our societies together. Estee Williams, 25-year-old influencer, has amassed hundreds of thousands of followers by showing off her tradwife life online. She even gave up her job to be the perfect wife. Is she and others like her saving society or are they selling out the sisterhood?


Transcript

00:00:00.160 Welcome back to Piers Morgan on Sensor.
00:00:02.060 Model Emily Radachowski, one of my favourite dimwits,
00:00:05.160 sparked controversy recently by claiming that getting divorced before 30 is chic.
00:00:09.760 So it seems that a lot of ladies are getting divorced before they turn 30.
00:00:16.760 And as someone who got married at 26, has been separated for a little over a year, 32,
00:00:25.260 I don't think there's anything better.
00:00:26.740 If there is nothing better than being in your 30s, still being hot,
00:00:31.740 maybe having a little bit of your own money,
00:00:33.660 figuring out what you want to do with your life,
00:00:35.660 for all of those people who are stressed or feeling stressed about that,
00:00:40.060 about being divorced, like, it's good. Congratulations.
00:00:44.380 It's like, congratulations.
00:00:47.380 God, she's ridiculous.
00:00:48.780 Well, divorce is certainly becoming more common.
00:00:51.100 Marriage itself is becoming a fierce frontier in the raging culture wars.
00:00:54.800 On one side, there are feminists rejecting a dating concept.
00:00:58.680 On the other, so-called tradwives who think it binds our societies together.
00:01:03.040 Well, tradwives spend their days dutifully cooking and cleaning
00:01:05.640 while their husbands go to work.
00:01:07.860 Estee Williams, who's a 25-year-old tradwife,
00:01:10.600 has amassed hundreds of thousands of followers
00:01:12.320 by showing off her tradwife life online.
00:01:15.440 She even gave up a job to be the perfect wife.
00:01:17.920 So, is she and others like her saving society?
00:01:21.740 Or are they selling out the sisterhood?
00:01:23.820 Well, joining me now is traditional wife and influencer, Estee Williams.
00:01:26.840 And in the studio, the socialist and author, Grace Blakely,
00:01:29.340 and YouTuber, Pearl Davis.
00:01:30.840 This might be the best line-up in the history of television
00:01:34.160 for a debate of this nature.
00:01:36.840 So, I'm very excited.
00:01:37.760 All right, Estee Williams, let's start with you as the tradwife.
00:01:40.980 Sell it to me.
00:01:41.740 Why do you think we should all go back to having tradwives in marriages?
00:01:49.780 Well, I believe that...
00:01:52.560 Well, I actually don't believe that everyone should be a traditional wife.
00:01:56.380 I think that it is a choice.
00:01:58.020 And I think it's a lovely choice if a woman wants to simply be a wife
00:02:02.280 and a mother and that's enough for her.
00:02:05.100 And it's a simple way of living with traditional gender roles.
00:02:10.040 It's balanced and we don't have to do it all as women.
00:02:14.820 I think we've proven that it's possible, but at what cost, right?
00:02:21.100 Right.
00:02:21.540 And in terms of what being a tradwife involves,
00:02:25.880 what do you think it means to be a tradwife?
00:02:30.280 Well, to adhere to traditional gender roles.
00:02:32.940 So, what I mean by that is the husband, he is the provider of the home.
00:02:37.860 He goes out, he works, and he knows how to protect his family if need be.
00:02:44.020 And the wife, she's the homemaker, she does the cooking, she does the cleaning,
00:02:48.720 and she takes care of the home and children, if there are any,
00:02:52.500 and herself, of course.
00:02:55.200 So, that's...
00:02:56.380 It's adhering to traditional gender roles.
00:02:58.400 OK.
00:02:59.040 Grace, I'm sure you thoroughly agree with this, aren't you?
00:03:00.960 Look, I mean, what Asu's just said about the fact that women should be able to choose,
00:03:05.520 obviously, I completely agree.
00:03:06.600 And, you know, men should be able to choose as well.
00:03:08.100 I think the feminist critique of traditional gender roles and gender ideology
00:03:11.800 isn't that some people like to stay at home and others don't.
00:03:14.760 It's that you shouldn't be bound to pursue a certain life
00:03:17.740 based on the sex that you were born into at birth.
00:03:20.160 The one issue I do have is, I know, actually, someone,
00:03:23.480 a friend of mine whose sister got involved in the tradwife movement in the US, basically.
00:03:27.580 She was quite young.
00:03:28.340 She got married to someone who was like, this is what we're doing.
00:03:30.780 You're going to be a tradwife.
00:03:32.100 And basically came to regret it.
00:03:33.800 She felt like she'd been controlled, like her life became very small,
00:03:36.880 and she couldn't get out.
00:03:38.120 She couldn't escape because, you know, she'd lost all her friends,
00:03:40.860 and this has become basically her entire life.
00:03:43.240 And it concerns me that sometimes we see this narrative on social media
00:03:47.060 that women have to be a certain way in order to get a husband.
00:03:51.120 So you have to be this, like, particular model of femininity for people to love you.
00:03:54.820 And I think that's really sad,
00:03:56.100 because I don't think anyone should have to shave off any parts of themselves
00:03:58.880 to be loved or to, you know, find a husband or, you know, anything like that.
00:04:02.820 All right, Pearl, what do you think?
00:04:05.740 I think it's a good that we're seeing a return to traditionalism.
00:04:10.060 Yeah, I think it's a good thing.
00:04:12.160 How...
00:04:12.640 I don't know.
00:04:13.420 How has the feminist movement of the last few decades,
00:04:17.100 how has it gone for you?
00:04:18.700 And when you look at it and see how women have progressed,
00:04:22.600 do you think it's been largely a force for good?
00:04:25.420 Or do you think, as the Tradwires do,
00:04:27.760 that perhaps we've lost that sense of gender rules,
00:04:31.300 for want of a better phrase,
00:04:32.140 which actually worked very well for many people?
00:04:33.500 Well, I mean, we've seen families disappear.
00:04:37.020 You know, I saw a study the other day that said only 25% of...
00:04:41.140 I mean, this is an American step, an American household to have families,
00:04:43.940 so I guess there's positives and there's negatives,
00:04:47.420 but it's, like, at what cost, you know?
00:04:49.320 What to you?
00:04:49.880 Like, 85, 150 years ago, the average woman had seven kids,
00:04:53.700 85% of people were married.
00:04:55.620 I mean, you know, there's also much higher infant mortality,
00:04:58.700 and women died very young, and, you know...
00:05:00.880 I mean, women were more depressed than ever before.
00:05:03.220 We're on antidepressants.
00:05:04.820 I mean, there are a lot of...
00:05:06.000 Women over the age of 45 are the least happy demographic.
00:05:08.580 There are a lot of very complex reasons for that.
00:05:11.900 Well, and the issue you have is women like Emily Ratajkowski,
00:05:15.240 you know, marriage...
00:05:15.820 Again, I've said this before, marriage isn't marriage anymore.
00:05:18.160 The average marriage is seven years.
00:05:19.520 We have things like no-fault divorce, leave if you're unhappy, so...
00:05:22.760 What does that mean, marriage isn't marriage anymore?
00:05:24.720 Because there have been so many marriages over the course of history
00:05:27.680 where people have been very unhappy,
00:05:29.200 either the man or the woman has been very unhappy,
00:05:31.060 and they've been forced, basically, to stay in a marriage.
00:05:33.220 It could have been an abusive marriage,
00:05:34.400 it could have been an mostly abusive marriage,
00:05:35.700 and that would...
00:05:36.600 You know, we have one life.
00:05:37.980 Why would you spend it with someone who doesn't make you happy?
00:05:39.620 Again, marriage was about duty.
00:05:40.740 And this is the problem we have with women.
00:05:42.880 Like, men tend to be better people than us.
00:05:45.680 Yeah, they really do.
00:05:46.700 They tend to...
00:05:47.200 I couldn't agree with you.
00:05:47.980 No, no, no.
00:05:48.180 They tend to do the right thing.
00:05:49.880 I'm done.
00:05:50.260 They are a much maligned species.
00:05:52.000 I agree.
00:05:52.300 I mean, there's a reason we have phrases like a man of his word, right?
00:05:55.400 Yeah.
00:05:55.640 It's not a woman of her word.
00:05:56.580 I just...
00:05:57.280 Men will actually stick things out.
00:05:59.380 Women, when she gets hard, we just leave.
00:06:01.280 And you're proving my point.
00:06:03.580 I think there's a...
00:06:04.560 What was your first answer?
00:06:05.940 My happiness, right?
00:06:07.240 Of course.
00:06:07.860 Everyone deserves to be happy.
00:06:09.040 Everyone deserves to be loved.
00:06:10.180 The family doesn't work when it's about you.
00:06:12.300 It's supposed to be about your kids.
00:06:13.720 And that's the problem in modern...
00:06:16.000 It's supposed to be about everyone.
00:06:16.620 No, no, no.
00:06:17.080 There's a balance and a compromise in relationships.
00:06:19.540 Do you think you're...
00:06:20.100 Am I allowed to talk now?
00:06:21.560 Okay, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
00:06:22.640 Look, I think relationships are about balance.
00:06:25.140 They're about compromise.
00:06:26.040 They're about knowing and understanding yourself.
00:06:28.000 Learning to, you know, know and understand another person.
00:06:30.180 Eventually, potentially, if you want to, bringing children into the world and teaching them how to do that as well.
00:06:34.440 Teaching them to balance a sense of their own identity with the love that they have for another person.
00:06:39.480 And, you know, for example, I know an older woman, actually, who's a friend of our family, who got divorced at about 60.
00:06:45.200 She had, you know, this lovely family.
00:06:47.100 They were together since they were 18.
00:06:48.300 And she said, I got to a point after I'd stopped being a mother and, you know, I was just kind of getting on, I realized I'd lost my sense of who I was.
00:06:55.620 And I didn't really feel like I knew who I was anymore because I'd always just been a wife and a mother.
00:06:59.900 And I wanted to go out and explore that.
00:07:01.280 And I think that's fantastic.
00:07:02.520 Good for her.
00:07:02.960 What is traditionalism?
00:07:05.100 I don't know what you think traditionalism is.
00:07:07.060 I would say a modern mentality is me before the family.
00:07:10.160 I would say traditionalism is the family before me, especially in women.
00:07:15.660 You're on to something.
00:07:16.580 And so what I actually, it's interesting you said 60-year-olds because, you know, I've interviewed 600, 700 people roughly in the past year and a half.
00:07:24.100 I've done hundreds of shows interviewing people about relationships.
00:07:26.920 And what I find is the 60-year-olds tend to, a lot of those women led their daughters astray.
00:07:33.580 You know, there's a reason we're in this mess, right?
00:07:35.740 A lot of those women had the wrong mentality when it came to marriage and had exactly the mentality that you're talking about.
00:07:41.840 Which is that one should prioritize balancing one's own sense of identity with compromise in a relationship with someone else.
00:07:46.540 No, no, it's myself before the marriage.
00:07:47.980 But that's, again, you know, I think that's an interesting point here, actually.
00:07:49.020 And it's really unfortunate because I would say the women of our generation really are suffering because of the advice of the women of the past.
00:07:55.560 That's an interesting point here, right, which is that we do live in a very individualistic society.
00:07:59.120 And we're all told, actually, I think a lot of the time in our relationships as well, you have to be a certain way if you want to receive love.
00:08:05.500 You have to abide by these norms.
00:08:07.780 You have to be a certain level of attractiveness.
00:08:09.440 You have to earn a certain amount of money.
00:08:11.120 It's all about you.
00:08:12.140 And that's not what love is.
00:08:13.200 All right, listen, it's actually been very interesting listening to this.
00:08:16.920 Let me bring it back in Esty.
00:08:18.540 Esty, in terms of trad values, like my wife puts the bins out, for example.
00:08:23.140 Right?
00:08:23.500 I've never asked her to.
00:08:25.160 She's just adopted that role in our house.
00:08:27.700 So I never put the bins out.
00:08:29.000 I don't know if I should feel ashamed of myself.
00:08:30.480 I do other stuff.
00:08:31.340 I don't put the bins out.
00:08:32.940 As a trad wife, do you put your bins out?
00:08:35.020 Is that part of the gender rule of the 50s?
00:08:38.420 Is that what used to happen?
00:08:40.060 Or is the man supposed to do that?
00:08:42.380 How do these rules work in reality?
00:08:46.300 To be honest, it has nothing.
00:08:49.060 I don't want to say nothing.
00:08:50.320 It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the 50s and the 60s, especially in our household.
00:08:57.440 I enjoy the aesthetic, and I think that's where people get a little mixed up with my channel.
00:09:03.400 But I, well, to answer your question, actually, I don't put the trash bins out.
00:09:07.360 My husband does that.
00:09:08.380 But I think we have this thing in our household where he does most of the outdoor work.
00:09:15.240 I do all the indoor work.
00:09:16.840 Of course, he works and provides, and I'm the homemaker.
00:09:20.200 That's what works for us.
00:09:21.520 But I mean, hey, I mean, it's your wife.
00:09:23.600 Right.
00:09:23.860 In relation to what Pearl said, is part of a sense of being dutiful and having no problem,
00:09:31.080 actually, with being dutiful in a marriage?
00:09:33.660 Yes, I believe that traditionalism can, it is putting your family before yourself.
00:09:42.500 And I think it is having those traditional values that were once definitely more in place
00:09:50.520 in God, family, and love.
00:09:54.300 And we live in a very selfish society now.
00:09:58.540 You know, you see self-love printed everywhere, right?
00:10:01.320 And women, speaking of divorce and marriage, women are leaving marriage far more easier
00:10:10.160 than men.
00:10:12.220 And they are doing it because they think there's something better out there for them, that the
00:10:16.940 grass is greener on the other side.
00:10:18.740 And they're finding out that is wrong.
00:10:20.820 And they're going through divorce after divorce.
00:10:23.160 And, you know, marriage is a bond.
00:10:25.920 And it's a sacred bond where two become one under God.
00:10:29.000 And that's beautiful.
00:10:30.500 And you have to protect that at all costs.
00:10:32.960 And I think part of that is putting your partner's needs before your own every single
00:10:37.700 day.
00:10:38.140 And I try and do my best.
00:10:39.920 And I think of my husband as much as I can and what will please him and make him happy.
00:10:45.240 I love the sound of this.
00:10:46.880 Sorry.
00:10:47.300 I mean, obviously, I don't.
00:10:48.920 I wouldn't dare to express my opinion.
00:10:50.580 I think that's, you know, a lovely way to think about relationships, if it's reciprocal.
00:10:54.600 You're talking about God and family and tradition.
00:10:57.700 How can I please finish my sentence?
00:11:00.640 Life isn't about keeping score.
00:11:01.220 I thought women were supposed to, you know, recognize their place and learn not to speak
00:11:04.960 over other people.
00:11:06.140 No.
00:11:06.720 So, look, I think it's reciprocated.
00:11:08.680 You talked there about religion and about Christianity and about self-love.
00:11:12.680 You know, the most important commandment, there's two most important commandments, love
00:11:17.140 your neighbor as yourself.
00:11:18.760 So, that requires a foundation of self-love and respect for oneself and knowledge of one's
00:11:23.300 own identity and what one wants to be able to receive and give the love that you're going
00:11:26.860 to have.