Heated Debate On TRANS People In SPORTS
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss the issue of trans people playing in sports of the opposite gender, and the benefits and disadvantages of using hormones in sports like volleyball and basketball. We also discuss the pros and cons of having trans people play in mixed and mixed-sexed sports.
Transcript
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What are you guys' opinions on trans people playing in sports of the opposite,
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or like trans women playing in women's sports? Go ahead.
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I feel like it's something that cannot be generalized. I feel like every sport is different.
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Every sport has a different skill set. Every sport has different levels of contact,
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different aspects that you need that could either benefit or not be benefited by the use of like
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hormones. So I think personally, it's something that can't be generalized and it's something that
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has to be seen as like a sort of like subject by subject situation or matter.
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Okay. What about for volleyball? That was the example I used.
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Volleyball, see, I mean, it depends on how much depth you want to go into. I mean,
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I don't know volleyball to a certain extent. I can imagine that, you know, if, for example,
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you've got someone who is female to male and they're taking testosterone and they're playing with
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like cis women, you could comment on the fact that testosterone allows like,
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um, like muscle, muscle build quicker or like, you know, they feel they might get like a harder,
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a harder spike, for example. But then I know some insanely strong cis women. So does that really
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take things like into another dimension in the game? I don't know, to be honest.
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So I don't think there's been enough research or enough, um,
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yeah, I don't, I don't think there's been enough of a look into it. Okay. So for the time being,
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what do you think they should do? Should we integrate or should we keep them separate?
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Well, as far as volleyball goes? Yeah. Volleyball, women's and men's sports in general.
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Again, I can't, I can't say. Okay. You don't know. Your answer could be, I don't know.
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Yeah. It can't be generalized in my idea, in my opinion. Okay. Go ahead.
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You're okay. Well, the problem is I can talk a lot and I don't want to like drown these guys out,
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but I can go now if you want. Yeah. Should I let the others speak?
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I don't know. Cause I can talk for a lot. It's up to you, you know, either go or don't go.
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So I almost have a similar opinion to you. It does depend on the sport and the governing body.
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Um, but there are a number of things that I would do probably differently because testosterone isn't
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the only thing we should be taking into account depending on the sport, especially because there
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are a number of differences between men and women that aren't changed just by taking hormones.
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Um, for example, men have more type two muscle fibers and women have more type one type two is
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more for bursts of strength and type one is for endurance. So women are better in endurance and are
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better at like running really fast. So an obvious example of where I think it may end up being unfair
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would maybe be with sprinting. Um, but the longer the distance, the running, the more fair it becomes.
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Um, with volleyball, volleyball is really difficult. And I played a lot of team sports when I was a kid,
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not volleyball. I played netball, which is the girl, bad version of basketball and rounders,
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which is the bad girl version. Um, baseball is really English, bad sports. They kind of suck. I don't
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know why they make us do those, but I will say, so assuming we're talking like at school level, so like
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before anyone's really had time to transition or do much, I played with boys in rounders and it was not
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fun. They hit the ball for like 10 times further and then I'm out there in like the depth of field
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running after the damn balls for like most of the game. So I will say like there are issues with it. Um,
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it kind of depends on what level, which game and how you're integrating people. Um, I am an advocate for
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not throwing the baby out with the bath water. So I think it can work, but I don't know if it's working right now.
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Okay. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think that they should just be able to play,
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to be honest. I mean, even with people who are born a certain way, there's people that are better at
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doing things than others. I mean, I understand that, uh, mainly for men who transition into women.
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I think I understand what they're saying sometimes, for example, you know,
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if it was to say like boxing, you know, um, a person who was born a man and then transitioning
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to a woman, maybe later on in life, fully developed into puberty and then decides to get into a ring
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with a woman who was born a woman. I think that might be a bit techie, but I think the whole point
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of transitioning is to be who you feel you are. And if you've got an interest in, if you have an interest
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and a passion in sport, I don't think you shouldn't be allowed to play that sport because you've
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decided to transition. I understand how it can be unfair with physically, but it comes with it,
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you know, it comes with it, I think. So I just think that.
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What do you think? I just don't think it's fair. Um, even if we just take things like height,
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like I'm in the top 1% of height for females. And I was like short when it came to getting recruited
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for colleges. Like if we brought men in there, I'd be in the top 15%. And like, I really wouldn't have
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any opportunity if men were, you know, even if it's like trans women, like after they transition,
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Yeah. I think usually like, for example, with my previous example with boxing, there's usually like
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weight classes. So with boxing is probably like a little bit okay. Cause you'd be matched fairly.
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But, um, like you said about, um, running, I don't, I'm not too sure. I don't know that information
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about, um, I think you said, sorry, what did you say? Like sprinting one or T two or something?
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Yeah. Twitch muscle fibers. So men and women tend to have a different percentage of both.
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Um, so when I say endurance, I'm talking like ultra endurance is where men and women tend to be
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where they compete together and women win often. Like it's about 50, 50 who's winning,
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It's not fringe, but it is crazy because I mean, when you're doing these types of
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ultra endurance swimming, there's a decent chance of death. Like somebody just died recently trying
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to swim the channel crossing. So it's not so much niche.
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Have you seen those people that go off of Niagara Falls?
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Yeah. I mean, it's difficult that they, they, I think it's Manhattan Island swimming and British
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Island. Right. But my point is in general, men are faster, definitely faster. So if you,
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as I said, sprinting that counts for short distance. Well, but even with marathons,
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men are still faster. I mean, there, there might be like a fringe ultra marathon, but that's like
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ultra endurance is definitely longer than a regular marathon. Yeah.
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Right. But I'm saying more people compete in a marathon and you said it's still 50, 50 for ultra
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endurance. I just can't imagine that's that popular of a sport.
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It's very hard, obviously. A lot of people don't want to do it because it's as difficult as it is.
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Clearly I could, I did a marathon. It was the worst day of my life.
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Yeah. My, my mom was a long distance runner as well.
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It's a, it's a tough one. Um, but it just becomes, so men would have the disadvantage
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because they don't have the same muscle fibers as women. So when they transition,
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they don't have the advantage within that endurance necessarily. And assuming that there is
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some negative impact to certain things when they're taking estrogen and some somewhat,
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So what about, what about marathons you'd make it?
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Um, so there are a number of sports. There are some where I'm sure it's fine. There are some where
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I'm fairly sure it's not fine. And then there's some in the middle where I think we need more
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research done. Like I'm not going to say no or yes to the ones in the middle. Cause, um, yeah,
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I'm not sure. I do think that we need to study more, less just reduction of testosterone and more
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the other things that make men, you know, stronger in various ways, like lung capacity and height to a point.
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Oh, it's, it's super important. Cause I played basketball and volleyball. It's super important.
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For volleyball and basketball, it is super important, but there's a bunch of sports where
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height either doesn't matter or being shorter is actually beneficial. So that's why I say it does
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depend on sport. But I think for the sports where height does matter, it is important to,
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it might just be that we have to cap trans women. Like you can compete, but only if you're under the
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height of the tallest women that can compete, right? Cause then you're not like four or five
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inches taller than they are or something. It's, it's, it's hard. And I, and I can appreciate that
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you're in a difficult position with that. Yeah. But even if they're the same height,
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it's like they're stronger than us in general. Yeah. Team sports, it's really difficult. Like,
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like how many people are there on a volleyball? Six, five for basketball. Yeah. So it's like quite
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impactful if he has, yeah. Team sports are the thing that I have the least amount of experience
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with too. So I don't want to speak over you. Well, my, my thing is like, if we're going to title it
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women's sports and men's sports, I think it's like misleading if we go to a tournament expecting it to
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be women. And then there's, there's trans people there, you know, like, cause, cause then it's like,
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I didn't agree to that. Like, I agreed to, to play in the way, like, cause that's why I was pissed off
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this weekend because it was like these, like one, one of the teams would just set the trans,
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trans woman every single time. And it's like, and one other team had, had four or five. And I'm like,
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I just don't think that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. It was Philippines and Brazil. It was called all nations.
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So it's like from different Philippines and Brazil must just, yeah, it must be big there. So it was
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those two. I always got the impression that that wasn't really enough transgender people to have their
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own sort of sports. So I will hypothesize how I would temporarily fix this situation later.
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Cause I'm not sure that everyone, cause these guys haven't really spoken yet.
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So you're an athlete, so you've actually played, so you actively have, you can have an opinion
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because you're in that situation. So personally, my opinion is, is that it's kind of, it's just
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really a struggle I feel for like a female athlete. You're going there. Obviously you
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just mentioned that you go there and it's like for transgender players on the opposing side.
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And it's like, you do, do you feel uncomfortable? Do you feel like, oh, you know, I might not be able
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to be, you know, like you're not comparable biologically. Do you know what I mean? Because
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like there's like a difference. No, I don't think it's comparable. I mean, I've played with men.
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So like, I've played like, um, co like basketball, like you always play at parks. So I've played
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pickup, but I know if I play, I've played basketball for maybe 16 years. And I know if I go against
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the guy who's played maybe five to seven, he'll beat me like easy. Yeah. I think it's like,
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I personally feel like if there are, like you're saying, I mean, there's like four transgender people
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on the other side. I feel like then you should just have volleyball specifically just for transgender
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people because then that would make more sense. Right. It's just, it's just not, I feel like
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it's not fair. It's just not fair. You know, um, there's too many exceptions. And then when there's
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too many exceptions, it just gets messy. So it should really be straightforward. You know,
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this is volleyball transgender people, you know? So you think there should be a third league?
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There definitely should be one. Okay. What do you think?
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Yeah, I agree with, um, the lady here. Um, I think there should be a whole separate league
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for you guys because, um, thinking of the people that are coming to watch it, right?
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Their mindsets are like, if it's just women playing, there should be just women playing,
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right? And they're coming to support their women that are playing, right? So I just feel like
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maybe if they had their own league with their own supporters, it kind of works out. But change is
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going to come at some point where we are going to integrate both all three genders, right?
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I hope not. Oh, you never know. Oh gosh, I hope not. Times are changing, so.
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No, no. If I went up against a 6'7 dude, I would never get to play.
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You know? Because, like, I understand. Because I know a lot of the argument is like, well,
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I'm tall. Like, I'd be taller than a lot of, you know, people that are trans that transitioned or
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whatever. But I think the issue that I get into is like, still the top percentage are going to be
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taller than the top percentage of women. Yeah. Do you know if that four-person team,
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they were all taller than you? Or did you meet them? Yeah. Some were taller, some were shorter.
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Like, one was a libero. But even, you could just tell, like, when they were playing, like,
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they're just more athletic. Volleyball is a really technical sport, right? So you have to train for,
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like, I don't know, I would say like five years before you really even get good volley rallies going.
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But, like, men can kind of just do it off the cuff because they're just so much stronger. It's hard
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to explain unless you know the sport. I can imagine that there is an advantage with being taller because
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of the height of the net, right? It's going to be easier to hit it over. Even back row just,
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it's so weird. Guys can do these just like crazy ups that women just, it takes us so much longer to get
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there. Did you find the same disadvantage even with the shorter players? Yes. And it was strength,
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so they hit harder? I would say they were just a bit quick. You can just tell, I can't really
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describe what it was. You could just tell the difference. Like, they're a little bit quicker,
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a little bit more agile. Like, they could just do things that the women couldn't. Okay.
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So you guys, you think it depends on the sport, right? So what would you say? Do you think there are
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certain sports that trans people should be banned from? Would you agree with that?
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It's hard because, say for example, you take a, I don't know, you take a trans woman, okay? They,
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I don't know, I don't, to be honest, I don't know the process, but like, if you had a trans woman who
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had been taking puberty blockers from young, um, therefore did not necessarily go through puberty,
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um, as like, a cis man, um, who then started taking hormone therapy to develop as a female,
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and therefore has no hormonal, um, advantage, yeah? So I don't know how many hours they put in,
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I don't know how much they've worked out, I don't know all this, but if they are on the same sort of
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hormonal level, if that would make a difference, if that would give them an advantage, or if that would
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be them on a level playing field with someone like you, and I don't know. So I do think that
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there are certain sports where it is a little bit dangerous, and sometimes it can be, um,
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irresponsible to put someone in a situation. For example, like you said, boxing, or like a combat sport,
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if someone, like for example, if they got to a certain age, um, where they've been through puberty,
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they've been in the gym, you know, they, they, they trained as a boxer, as like a cis man,
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for years and years, and then decided to transition and enter into women's league,
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I think that might be slightly irresponsible. Like, the, the level of strength and power that that person
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has over a cis female might be insane, but then like I said before, I know some insanely strong cis females.
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So, again, I can't give you a definitive answer. I can't say whether or not I think it's
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good or bad. I do think that sports has an insanely positive, um, uh, like repercussion on, on, on,
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on the person who takes part in it. Like you as a sports person, that's your, I can imagine that's
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your move in meditation. When I play ice hockey, that's my move in meditation. Nothing outside the
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ice rink matters. It's like everything that's going crazy in my head just goes into its beautiful
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filing cabinet and it, it, everything just makes sense for a while. And so to, to take that away
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from someone who is merely trying to live the life that they feel is right for them,
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who is not hurting anyone, who's not going out of their way to, to cause malice or anything like that,
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I think that's harsh, but, but I think it does hurt people because it hurts. Like,
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it's kind of like if I train for 16 years, just to have opportunity taken and given to someone that
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I would say has an advantage. Like, I don't think there's any amount of drugs that you can make it
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equal. Cause I think, I think at the end of the day, like you still are what you're born.
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A hundred percent. And it's, it's, it's, it, it is always going to be a hard situation. And I do
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think it's always going to be something that should be seen case by case because it also,
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you know, there's so many things that, that go into it. It's the person's mentality, you know,
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like, you know, if you go into something like boxing, are you just trying to score points?
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Are you trying to be malicious and hurt your person?
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Time boxes usually get to like pick who they're fighting. I think, I think the issue was there
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was a case a couple of years ago where they didn't, it was, um, someone didn't disclose. I could be
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wrong, but I think they didn't disclose they were trans. I don't know. And then someone got hurt.
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I'm pretty sure. The only one I know that she was trans, but I don't know. What I know is that,
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yeah, I just think you sign up for it. Yeah. Cause there are girls out there who crazy enough to be like,
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hell yeah. They like the competition. I mean, I will say there is one benefit to,
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I won't say training with men cause it's training with trans women, but, but let's just say both.
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If they have an advantage is it does push you to be better because you know, you've got that
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competition to compete with, but with team sports, it's really, um, complicated because it's not just
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one person versus one person. It's not just, you know, like, I don't know, swimming where it's,
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everyone's running in a line or what's swimming in a line. It's a little more complicated when
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it's team sports. What did you guys think of late Leah Thomas? Did you guys agree with that?
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I think that the way that they dealt with Leah Thomas was really bad because
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so that she won fifth place, right? Joint with another girl. And then they said,
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we're going to give the trophy to the Leah Thomas. And I'm like,
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do you think Leah Thomas should have been allowed to swim though?
00:19:02.480
Um, under the rules that they put in, she didn't do anything wrong.
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So, I mean, she was quite significantly bigger than the rest of them. Right.
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And lung capacity is actually really important with swimming. Um, I don't know height as much,
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but sometimes it's, I mean, I need a yes or a no. She only came fifth, right, though?
00:19:31.200
No, they, she won a different one. Yeah, there was more than one event.
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I only heard more about the person because the other person didn't even get to hold the trophy
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because they said Leah Thomas is going to get it. And I'm like, that's really poor organizing.
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Cause my, my issue is with it is again, it's like we, we train, especially in women's sports,
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we train so long and there's no money in it. There's like no money at the end of it. So it's like
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you train your whole life for a couple opportunities that you get. And so she trained like, and especially
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just like as an athlete, I know how long we like look forward to our senior year of college.
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Like that's like, you've trained your whole life. This is the best you're going to be. You're probably
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not going to play after this. She gets to that moment and it it's taken from her, if I'm being honest,
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because I just don't think it's fair. I mean, I can hypothesize now how I would fix these situations.
00:20:16.800
So at least temporarily for the meantime, with something like swimming, it's really easy, right?
00:20:21.120
So you simply just have additional trophies and then you give them one for whatever number
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that they represent, but the cis women aren't losing out. So if there are, say it's a qualifier,
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there are 20 places, but one of them goes to a trans woman, just let the 21st place go in as well.
00:20:37.360
No, I just, I just don't think we should be forced to compete with them. Like even,
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even if it's an individual sport. Well, that way no one's really losing out,
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right? If we have additional trophies, we can say cis women first, second, third,
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We have to make all these exceptions. Like I just, I just think it gets confusing and I just think we
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should stick it to biological men, biological women.
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Can I make a point? Like, is it really a competition if everyone's a winner?
00:21:01.840
Hmm. I mean, that's not everyone's a winner. They would only place if they match the time or come
00:21:08.160
in between at the time of a cis woman. So it wouldn't be like, it's better than what is now,
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right? It would be better than what's now because otherwise the trans woman would simply just take
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the place that won't be an additional place for a cis woman. But let me ask a question.
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I'm looking at compromises rather than saying, yeah, I'm just trying my best.
00:21:26.480
Go ahead. So what about for, I'm just, I'm just interested in if the same worry and concern
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would apply for transgender people who have gone from female to male, because then it would be
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surely on the, on the basis of your philosophy, it would be a disadvantage for the trans man
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up against cis men, you know? And I think that, I just think it should be fair because you know,
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like if a trans man was to go against a cis man, I'm bearing in mind the trans man has
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again transitioned late in his life and has gone through female puberty. Yeah.
00:22:02.800
I don't know if they're going to be at the same level as a cis man, but does it mean that they
00:22:07.760
can't participate? Do you know what I mean? I know what they can compete in.
00:22:10.800
No, I think it should be biological men, biological women. I think that's how we should,
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we should slip, flip it. But I don't think, and you can't take drugs obviously to be in the
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women's league. I think it just has to be on biology.
00:22:23.840
I mean, they can participate, but they will lose.
00:22:28.160
Okay. It depends on the sport, right? Okay. So I can speak about gymnastics.
00:22:32.640
I don't, I don't think it depends at all. I think two leagues, biological men, biological men.
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It's pretty black and white. This should be a great area.
00:22:40.000
All right. Let me speak. So with gymnastics, you have an advantage if you're shorter,
00:22:44.560
you can do more rotations. Obviously more women tend to be shorter than men.
00:22:48.400
All right, no way. You also have an advantage. I've seen the flips. I've seen the flips.
00:22:52.000
Yeah, Simone Biles is four foot ten. I know. No, she, she's very good. But I'm saying the men,
00:22:57.600
like, they go higher when they, when they jump off the...
00:23:00.880
No. So like with gymnastics, it's not just being shorter that's beneficial,
00:23:05.120
but it depends on the discipline. I will say there are some disciplines within gymnastics
00:23:08.800
a trans man would not have fun with. Like rings, for example, is all about upper body strength.
00:23:13.440
Ew, that's going to suck. But when it comes to like floor exercise, um, um, and also I,
00:23:20.400
I see it the other way around as well. A trans woman would not have an advantage
00:23:23.680
because she's going to be taller. For example, when you're doing beam, having smaller feet
00:23:28.160
is an advantage and being shorter, men struggle on the beam. That's why they don't do it as a thing.
00:23:34.640
Like men and women's gymnastics is pretty different. There's only like a couple of shared
00:23:39.520
disciplines within the two, um, which is vault and floor. Um, the bars are very different for both
00:23:45.600
because they're adapted. So like flexibility is the biggest one in gymnastics and women are more
00:23:51.280
flexible than men. So if being shorter is a benefit and being more flexible is a benefit,
00:23:56.560
then it makes sense that trans men would be able to compete in gymnastics.
00:23:59.360
Maybe, maybe there's specific things in gymnastics, but I still think biological men,
00:24:04.480
biological women to avoid all this confusion. Because by that logic,
00:24:08.480
then the women would go into the men's league and then they would be at an advantage.
00:24:12.960
My gut is telling me, my gut's telling me the guys would still win, but, but you know,
00:24:18.240
I could be, I don't know, gymnastics like that. They are quite different.
00:24:22.000
In gymnastics, would you say that the spots where both men and women have like the same
00:24:27.520
like disciplines, would you say the women are more athletic or better gymnasts than the guys?
00:24:32.240
I think women are better at floor. There's a reason why female gymnastics has the highest viewership
00:24:36.400
in the Olympics. I don't think, I don't think it's because of the, I don't, I think. You don't think
00:24:42.080
Simone Biles is good? No, I think it's, so you think Simone Biles is more, is more, is a better
00:24:48.720
gymnast than the best male gymnast? So because gymnastics is about flexibility rather than just
00:24:54.880
pure strength, except for rings, potentially, um, pommel horse to an extent. Yeah. No, no, gymnastics is not
00:25:02.800
about flexibility. Flexibility is something you need to do gymnastics. Gymnastics is about pulling
00:25:07.280
off, um, skillful maneuvers. Yes. So like flexibility and this, so if you're short, which women tend to
00:25:15.280
be shorter than men on average, you're able to do more rotations on floor exercises than you are as a
00:25:21.120
men. But you just listed, like, you just listed a couple with the rings, you said rings. Yeah, rings,
00:25:28.320
trans men would probably. Yeah, but, but the whole, the whole point, it doesn't even really matter
00:25:32.160
because if you're saying women have the advantage, then, then it would just be vice versa. So I'm
00:25:36.800
saying to avoid the confusion, it should just be biological men, biological women. I understand that
00:25:41.280
it's like, it feels good to simplify things that way. And it's not necessarily a wrong opinion to have.
00:25:46.960
Um, I, I will say like, although trans women are a protected class and you know, I'm pro trans,
00:25:54.800
I'm not, I'm not anti-trans in any way at all. So are women, women are a protected class. Um,
00:26:01.040
and that becomes an issue when it seems like both sides are complaining about their hurt feelings.
00:26:07.120
So for me, I want to, wait, what do you mean, what do you mean hurt feelings? Well,
00:26:11.760
because I would say from the athlete's side, we're not complaining about our hurt feelings. We don't
00:26:15.520
want to get hurt. So the two main complaints are both sides saying I'm uncomfortable for one reason
00:26:21.120
or another. And I'm like, I don't care if you're uncomfortable for either side. It's,
00:26:24.400
is irrelevant to how we're going to fix the issue. Um, and the other issue is like acceptance that is
00:26:31.920
being forced to a point where I think that to be fair, I think trans women have been told a lie,
00:26:38.800
which is simply that reducing your testosterone just fixes everything magically. And I think they
00:26:43.280
believe it, um, because they've been told it and who wouldn't really believe things that they've been
00:26:48.080
told. And if certain governing bodies, every governing body in sports is different, right?
00:26:53.600
So not every governing body allows X, Y, or Z is variable. Um, but I do think that it's the governing
00:27:01.760
bodies and the sports themselves that kind of let this situation get to the point of where it is.
00:27:07.360
Like, I don't have any ill will towards the trans people in this discussion. It's not
00:27:12.880
really their fault. It's like, yeah, but it's not about ill, but we're just talking about policies.
00:27:17.760
So it's not about what should you do? It's like, what would the policies be? Should they be allowed?
00:27:23.040
And if, well, I'm a proponent of the same as him, I'm like, it's variable.
00:27:28.480
I understand. So it depends on the sport. Okay. Um, what's the next one? Cause you said something about
00:27:40.880
They need their own unit. They need their own space.
00:27:45.360
Because I've, from just watching, like I've watched, um, basically, you know, the,
00:27:53.680
there was an episode on Glee when the student unique went into the female's bathroom. Right.
00:28:01.040
And then as he came out, well, as he came out of the, the, the stall, um, one of the cheerleaders
00:28:07.440
stopped him and was like, you can't use this bathroom. You're not allowed. You're a man.
00:28:11.920
And from that, it triggered a whole situation within the school where people, where boys were walking
00:28:20.160
into girls locker rooms and girls are walking into male locker rooms. And it just made the whole
00:28:25.120
thing a confusing space for people. Not until the end of the, the show I watched. Right. And where they
00:28:32.640
gave them his own key to his own cubicle and it just, everything went back to normal. So I just feel
00:28:39.520
as if they need their own space, if that makes sense, their own unit, their own bathroom.
00:28:44.320
So they don't feel like they have to be pressured to go into the boy's bathroom or to the girl's
00:28:49.280
bathroom, depending on what. Yeah. I mean, I don't like to get naked in front of anyone. So I've never
00:28:53.040
have to, because luckily I guess with my schools and with whatever gyms and swimming pools I've been
00:28:58.320
to, they've always had like private cubicles, but I feel like shared ones is more common in the US.
00:29:03.360
I think. Well, in an athletic space, even at the tournament this weekend, they were in there.
00:29:06.880
Okay. I feel like that's uncomfortable for everyone, right? It's just like.
00:29:12.000
No, no, you're pretty, you're, you, you get, as an athlete, you get pretty comfortable changing
00:29:16.000
in front of women. I hate it. But that's just women. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's not
00:29:19.920
trans women. If it was trans women, I'd feel like, okay. Okay. You was once a man. Okay. I will start
00:29:27.280
to think a little bit like, are you watching me sort of thing? I'm just a prover. I just hate everyone.
00:29:33.040
It's uncomfortable for both. Like it's uncomfortable for trans women and the women,
00:29:38.480
because I can like me putting myself in a trans women's shoes, which I can, I can try. I mean,
00:29:44.640
I can't exactly relate, but I would feel very, just, I would have so many, like a million doubts
00:29:52.240
and thoughts running in my head. Like, I think having a changing room just dedicated to trans
00:29:57.040
people would be so much better for them and for everyone else. I think we should just
00:30:02.880
private cubicles for all. Yeah. I don't want to see anyone. No, no, no, because even at the bathroom,
00:30:08.480
like, I don't, I just want, like, I just think even when you're doing your makeup and you're just
00:30:12.400
doing like girls stuff, I don't know. It's just nice to just have girls in there. It's so, it's so,
00:30:17.360
if I can just, it's sounding like a little bit, um, what's the right word? Like prejudice,
00:30:23.040
because, you know, if someone's transitioned, then they've, they should be able to go into the,
00:30:30.640
um, restroom of that gender that they've transitioned to. I think it's a bit crazy
00:30:36.480
because let's just say, for example, you have a trans woman or a trans man that now goes into the
00:30:42.960
restroom of the gender that they was born, but they've already started surgeries. They've already
00:30:47.920
started testosterone. They're going to be majorly misplaced. And anyone that's in that restaurant
00:30:53.920
with them is going to feel super uncomfortable. I mean, if they've completed their transition
00:30:59.360
or even halfway through with their transition, then, and no, no one would know the difference,
00:31:04.560
especially if, for example. No, you can, you can tell. Not all the time. Maybe with men to female,
00:31:11.520
sometimes because of, for example, like height, hand size, feet size, but not every single man
00:31:18.320
is like six foot. Some men are small. I will say like butch lesbians kind of get the worst of this
00:31:23.760
because there's a lot more like masculine lesbians than there are like trans women that I've ever met
00:31:28.320
in the wild. Cause I have trans friends, but I, I don't think I've ever met one just like in public.
00:31:33.120
Even when we go to like locker rooms, like if you, if you in public, you, you get naked,
00:31:38.160
that's indecent exposure. And so, but it's like, especially a lot of the trans, um, women,
00:31:44.720
like they don't end up getting the surgeries or trans. Yeah. They don't end up getting the surgery.
00:31:49.600
So it's like, I don't want to, cause they always use Blair White as an example. Like that's always
00:31:54.880
the one they'll like destiny always throw at us, but it's like, he didn't get the surgery.
00:31:59.600
I'm not too sure who that is, but like, you know, like we, we say that obviously gender
00:32:03.840
and sexuality are two different things. No, I don't think so.
00:32:07.120
But they are though, because you have, you have lesbian women and gay men,
00:32:12.000
and they would never dream of transitioning. They're happy as men.
00:32:17.520
And they're happy to be gay men. And you know, there's women that are happy to be gay women.
00:32:21.520
They've got no intentions of transitioning. But if someone has transitioned, because equally people
00:32:27.360
transition and are still attracted sexually to the other sex, if I'm making sense. So for example,
00:32:36.880
you could be born female, transitioning to a man, and then be attracted to men.
00:32:46.320
I don't really, I don't even really care about the sexuality, it's just the biology.
00:32:50.240
I hear you. But to make my point, if you're a transgender person who has transitioned and isn't
00:32:56.320
gay in that transition, I don't see how you can possibly make anyone in a restroom feel uncomfortable.
00:33:02.640
So if you're a trans man, and you like women, you go into a men's locker room, as a man,
00:33:08.800
who likes women. You're not posing any threat to any of those men in that locker room. You're not perving
00:33:13.840
on anyone. And equally the same, if you're a man born, a man who then transitions into a woman,
00:33:24.400
You're not going to go into the locker room and start perving on the women in that.
00:33:30.800
I think it has to start off mental, 100%. It has to start off as a mental thing.
00:33:34.240
But you would agree you can't actually be the other gender?
00:33:36.960
No, you can get surgeries to make you look like it. But you wouldn't actually like...
00:33:41.600
No, yes, you can be. You can't change your DNA. You can't change your sex.
00:33:46.000
You can't change your DNA. No, you can't change your DNA.
00:33:50.960
No. Well, you can change your body. You can change your shell.
00:33:54.080
I mean, I'm a spiritual individual. The way it looks, right?
00:33:56.480
Yeah, I mean, I'm a spiritual person. So for me, this body right here is just my shell.
00:34:01.120
Now, if an accident happened to me, God forbid, and I was paralyzed,
00:34:05.840
that doesn't make me less of anything because I can't use my body.
00:34:08.800
Our body is just our body. Who we are inside...
00:34:11.360
Right. So it's mental though. It's not physical.
00:34:16.000
And then if it's strong enough, you will change the physical to match the mental and emotional.
00:34:20.240
No, but you can't, like you can't, you know, like a man,
00:34:23.680
like a trans man can't get a woman pregnant and vice versa.
00:34:26.400
No, you can't because that's DNA like you said.
00:34:29.600
How many cis men are there that can't get a woman pregnant?
00:34:34.320
I just wouldn't say that. I would say it's a false equivalency.
00:34:37.040
No, because it sounds prejudiced from your point though.
00:34:40.160
They're still built the way they're built, right?
00:34:45.200
Yeah, but a woman who can't get pregnant naturally,
00:34:47.760
like a cis woman who can't get pregnant isn't less of a woman because she can't get pregnant.
00:34:51.760
The same way a man is not less of a man because he can't impregnate a woman.
00:34:55.280
Right, but they're still a woman because they're born a woman.
00:34:59.280
And so my point is it's mental, it's not physical.
00:35:05.040
I've seen pictures of like, on Twitter, I did not want to, it was just, you've been on Twitter.
00:35:10.000
And like, of like the surgeries, it doesn't look the same.
00:35:15.760
The thing is, yeah, like it's not going to be able to look the same.
00:35:22.080
You know, if a white person was to want to get a skin, a tan, they're not going to look black.
00:35:27.680
Like there's certain things if a black person wants to get lighter and they start bleaching, you can tell.
00:35:36.240
Like all of this judgment and yeah, but you don't look, you don't let people live their truth and feel comfortable in the body that they're in.
00:35:42.560
I don't care if you live your truth, like, but like, and do, like, do what you want to your body.
00:35:46.800
But to me, it's just like, I think that women have the right to our own spaces.
00:35:51.360
Like I think we have the right, I think, I think we, no, I don't think the race thing really is an equivalent, but I think like women have the right to our own spaces.
00:36:00.560
I agree, I agree, I agree with, I fully agree with what you're saying and I understand, you know, the difficulties with women who are playing sports with trans men.
00:36:10.160
But I think that the difficulties that you, women, cis women have.
00:36:13.680
Well, even in bathrooms too, I would say the same thing.
00:36:15.920
Because at the, at the end of the day, you know, they, they still need their.
00:36:18.800
I'll be honest, I've gone into men's bathrooms quite a lot because they have short queues.
00:36:24.080
That's like, that's like a female privilege, isn't it?
00:36:28.240
I think society has really started to over sexualize people.
00:36:34.400
Like, I don't know about you, but when I go to the toilet, like I literally go in there to go to the toilet.
00:36:38.960
I go in the toilet, I come out, I wash my hands and I walk out trying as hard as I can not to touch the door.
00:36:43.520
I will say, unless the trans woman is doing something legitimately weird, like staring or they have like a hard on or something bad,
00:36:50.720
they probably are just changing and it's just awkward for everyone involved.
00:36:54.640
But I don't know, like, I just, I'm awkward around everyone.
00:37:01.280
I think you guys are focusing too much on the people that are adults.
00:37:08.160
I think you guys are focusing too much on the people that, like the people that are going through this and their feelings.
00:37:12.960
What you're failing to realize is that we're talking about the policies.
00:37:15.600
So the policies make it possible for a man to transition into the woman and go into a female robot's bathroom.
00:37:22.720
So if the policies make that possible, you're forgetting that we have people that are criminals.
00:37:27.040
We have people that are off there, that are crazy, that will take advantage of those kind of policies.
00:37:36.880
My point is, my point is, if those policies exist, people that can take advantage of those policies will take advantage of it.
00:37:46.320
There's actually nothing to stop anyone from going into any bathroom.
00:37:50.960
We don't, like, stand outside of the bathrooms as security guards.
00:37:55.040
But the mere fact that you're, you're, you're, you're basically disregarding social...
00:37:59.520
Can gay men not allow, are gay men not allowed to use men's bathroom in case the men that are not gay are worried that the gay men entering are going to have perv on them?
00:38:07.200
Are lesbians not allowed to use women's bathroom because they're scared?
00:38:10.640
No, I don't think, I think that's a false equivalent.
00:38:12.800
The reason why I say this is because when you argue from the men's side, men don't care because the reality of a man's world is we have to defend ourselves in whatever situation anyways.
00:38:24.160
I don't care if a woman comes into my bathroom because I know she can't do, like, there's very little she can do to me.
00:38:34.400
So my point is, if I have a daughter, I don't want a situation where policies allow someone to be able to go into the bathroom to perv on her.
00:38:46.000
Wouldn't it be, this is what I was saying before about sexuality, if a trans woman, okay, has gone into a woman's bathroom and she is heterosexual now and she loves men.
00:38:58.080
Is that not less pervy than a gay woman going into the women?
00:39:02.960
But the problem is, would the women start putting labels on their head about who they are?
00:39:11.520
And if someone, if you feel like someone's staring at you...
00:39:13.520
But his point is, we won't know, but we can see with gender.
00:39:22.480
But also, regardless, if a predator wants to predate, a predator will predate.
00:39:27.360
Like, if someone has that in their mind and that's what they want to do, they will.
00:39:30.480
And they will have done that for years and years and years and years.
00:39:39.200
I don't want to go to the bathroom in front of guys.
00:39:42.560
And you can, you know, you can dress like a woman, act like a woman.
00:39:49.040
If they don't have a penis anymore, do you know what I mean?
00:39:54.960
And even when you were talking earlier about women that can't...
00:40:01.840
And they were still, like, they're supposed to have ovaries.
00:40:08.320
And I hear you, like, the thing is, I hear your concern.
00:40:11.680
And I'm sure a lot of people have the same concerns as you.
00:40:15.120
But what I'm trying to get you to understand is somehow, in some way,
00:40:18.960
as much as you have your opinion, it is a little bit prejudiced, you know?
00:40:23.920
And I get that your prejudice may come from your personal concerns,
00:40:29.280
And I think that, you know, you have to understand that when you've got these viewpoints,
00:40:33.200
yeah, sometimes it's hypocritical because, and that's why I'm using sexuality.
00:40:37.600
That's why I'm saying there's probably women in your bathroom that are checking you out
00:40:41.680
if they're gay, if they're lesbians. So for you to...
00:40:45.680
And yeah, they can, so for you to dismiss them and then jump on trans women,
00:40:55.040
That, like, you can't do that because, again, he was saying there's no sign on their head
00:41:01.680
There's no sign on their head saying they're trans.
00:41:08.000
Especially, especially men that, men that, men that become women, it's so obvious.
00:41:15.200
No, but when you say not always, that's like a very small percentage.
00:41:23.120
How many people, like trans people have you guys...
00:41:25.040
No, but not everyone has access to surgery. It's so expensive.
00:41:29.440
So to make somebody acceptably trans for society, they have to go through all these surgeries?
00:41:42.800
No, but if they're stealth, then they can go into the toilet, right?
00:41:45.280
So if you don't realize that they're a trans woman, they can go in there, right?
00:41:49.760
Because you're not on edge because they don't have an Adam's apple.
00:41:57.360
Like, it doesn't make you the opposite gender because you dress like it and get some surgery.
00:42:02.080
Some people aren't necessarily even trying to access that.
00:42:06.640
Some people are not trying to be like their cis counterparts.
00:42:11.760
Some people are just trying to make the outside match the inside.
00:42:14.480
And that doesn't necessarily mean that they will claim that they are cisgender.
00:42:19.040
It doesn't mean that they want to necessarily be cisgender.
00:42:22.640
It just means that they actually feel mad uncomfortable with a beard.
00:42:25.920
They feel mad uncomfortable with the fact that they've got, you know, leg hair.
00:42:29.920
They're uncomfortable with their genitalia and they don't like it, then it doesn't match them.
00:42:33.920
But then if they decide to alter the outside or to start, you know, changing how they look
00:42:41.200
and making themselves feel pretty the way that they feel that they should,
00:42:46.800
I kind of want to steal man pearl a little bit because I want to say the majority of trans women
00:42:53.600
But there are some people that are delusional and do push it to a point.
00:42:59.280
Trans women are women but they're not cis women, right?
00:43:03.120
But I'm saying when you're forcing us to accept them as women and treat them as women,
00:43:08.240
then it's like you're forcing me to live in the delusion when I can see you're clearly not.
00:43:12.400
So like when I'm forced to play with them, now I have to, you know,
00:43:21.360
Even in the locker room, because I go into the locker room, now I have to,
00:43:25.600
now I have to pretend that they're supposed to be there.
00:43:29.920
But people have been pretending like trans people don't exist.
00:43:34.960
But trans people have been a part of society for like, well, since time began.
00:43:39.760
But the issue we get to is that if we don't, if we don't give a hard line,
00:43:46.560
And that's what you see with the men going into female prisons and they get raped.
00:43:52.160
There was a couple of cases in California that just happened in.
00:43:55.120
We already, so in England, we've already prepped for that.
00:43:58.240
So we have a transgender wing too, but we have the same problem.
00:44:01.120
We did have a transgender woman rape a woman because that was really stupid.
00:44:06.000
Because she wasn't like, she wasn't post-op or anything as really dumb.
00:44:10.640
I feel like there are some situations where people just turn their brains off.
00:44:14.400
But my problem is like, that's why I just think we make it simple.
00:44:20.640
When you start getting into all these, when you get into all these exceptions,
00:44:24.160
like then there are people that are faced consequences.
00:44:28.720
Yeah, I do think the transgender wing was important because it's obviously,
00:44:31.920
it's keeping trans women safe from men, but it's also keeping, you know,
00:44:37.920
So I think that was a good, but that is an example of a compromise, right?
00:44:42.000
We didn't just throw the trans women in with the men.
00:44:44.400
No, but I would, I would, I would just keep it men, women.
00:45:08.720
When they go toilet, they go to the men's bathroom.
00:45:12.640
At home, we use the same toilet because we are family and because we are friends.
00:45:18.160
Because we are family and because we are friends.
00:45:21.280
when you're meeting people that you don't know,
00:45:32.640
I would go with the girls and you talk in the bathroom.
00:45:43.600
the I'm enjoying this because I'm not the most,
00:45:55.760
I don't want to disregard how anxious and scared women often feel in general.
00:46:01.200
Like if you don't know somewhere where you're going and you're out in public,
00:46:08.160
because if you're not on edge and constantly have your guard up,
00:46:10.800
you're often blamed for things that are bad that happened to you.
00:46:14.320
So you're either constantly anxious or constantly not paying attention and then blamed for the bad
00:46:23.840
but it's something we should take into consideration.
00:46:37.920
And it's important not to just completely discredit these differences.
00:47:05.760
You can just have cubicle, cubicle, cubicle, cubicle, camera.
00:47:09.120
Like, I just don't understand why it's that deep.
00:47:15.040
You can still have your chat in front of the mirror.
00:48:15.040
to form a whole league of just one gender of people.
00:48:24.080
it genuinely would not be a bad thing to have a separate,