In this episode, we discuss the concept of a high value man and how it can be applied to men in their 40s and 50s. We discuss the benefits of being a bachelor in your 40s or 50s, having a vasectomy, childfree by choice, travels extensively, reads voraciously, reads extensively, and enjoys a good book.
00:00:00.000So today, this today was sparked guys. Troy did me such a solid today. I woke up. I had no plans for this. I had no idea what I was going to do today. And Troy decided to go viral on Twitter and come on today. Thank you for that.
00:00:16.900It's absolutely fine. Whatever I can do. Could you pull up the tweet I sent you, King? So Troy had a tweet go viral. And I think this is a conversation about like what we talk so much about high value men in the red pill. We've never we don't really define it often, you know, and there's a lot of disagreements. So Troy came in and gave us an awesome definition.
00:00:46.900All right. So we got a high value man is a bachelor in his 40s and 50s, has a vasectomy, child free by choice, travels extensively, reads voraciously, voraciously.
00:01:06.100I don't know. I like I don't know British words. I don't know. I don't know big words. I don't know. It's not my thing.
00:01:12.160All right. Swims in the sea every morning in the sunshine. Is that something you do?
00:01:17.480Well, we'll get into this in a minute. OK, OK. It's something I like to do.
00:01:22.320OK. A joy is the best of life, unfettered by the consequences and responsibilities that others have.
00:01:30.140OK, so tell me your thought behind this tweet. I think it all makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
00:01:34.600To be honest, I can't see any disagreement from the audience about any of that at all.
00:01:38.200As a vasectomy, though. So, OK, so look, there's there is a little bit of context behind this.
00:01:43.580And I don't want to be like special pleading here because I've sort of hauled up in front of the court now to explain myself.
00:01:48.120So the vasectomy thing has been a little bit of a meme, I would say, around and it's semi.
00:01:56.240I know you've discussed it sort of seriously, semi-seriously, semi-humorously sort of discussed.
00:02:00.420I think he was sparked off by Rollo Tomasi, who did a tweet a little while ago, which also went viral, when he talked about it was it was a very similar sort of layout to this, really, where he talks about high value man.
00:02:10.840And he was saying the fastest way to become the highest value version of yourself.
00:02:15.120One of the things on there was to get a vasectomy.
00:02:17.000And he and when he was challenged about that, he said, well, the reason for that is because if you get into a situation with a woman where you get somebody pregnant, maybe by accident or maybe it's not the right woman for you at that time, obviously, that's going to impede your progress.
00:02:32.200And he was talking about basically like making money and becoming that sort of high value man.
00:02:36.360I understood it perfectly, but everyone else was going crazy.
00:02:50.460So when I referenced vasectomy in my tweet, I was sort of humorously referencing that, if that makes sense.
00:02:56.800It was kind of like a little bit of a nod to that.
00:02:59.480But, you know, some of the other things in the tweet, I do think, I do stand by the sense that I think that there's a model for life here that gets shut out.
00:03:09.840A little bit from the conversation, particularly with a lot of the track cons that are around.
00:03:17.720Well, I think what I was basically trying to say in that tweet is that it is possible if you want to, as an older guy, to have a great life.
00:03:26.580And you don't have to go down, you know, the conventional pathway if you don't want to.
00:03:31.300Now, obviously, for most people, that's not going to be applicable.
00:03:42.120I've got quite a lot of personal freedom, which I personally, you know, value.
00:03:45.420I also know dudes in their 50s, even in their 60s, who are also living a similar sort of lifestyle.
00:03:50.780So the whole point of the tweet and a lot of the stuff that I put out recently, which is a little bit satirical, a little bit spiky, whatever.
00:03:57.580But the whole point of it is just to say, look, there's a load of Tragcons on here who are basically telling you to get shacked up at 22, find a wife, have 15 kids, go to Ikea every weekend, pretend to be happy.
00:04:09.940And all I'm saying is you don't have to do that and you don't have to be afraid.
00:04:13.840If you don't do that, you'll just be left on the shelf.
00:04:15.860Well, and I actually I had I had a thought the other day.
00:04:18.660I was thinking about how you're more likely to fail at marriage than succeed.
00:04:31.920I'm not saying it can't ever be a good thing, but just by and large, it's like a lot of times what I see them do is they'll blame everyone else for marriage's reputation.
00:04:42.640So it's not our fault for talking about it.
00:04:44.600So when I thought about, OK, if we take 50 percent of marriages fail and then we take the other 50 percent and if there's a negative reputation, we can assume at least half of those are unhappy, which is something that we would strive for.
00:06:08.120And I would just look and I'm like, I can name at least 10 men off the top of my heads that are absolutely worse off because they went that route.
00:06:15.380Well, like there's no if, ands or buts.
00:06:33.440But unfortunately, and I think you've made this point, we live in a society where it just doesn't work in the same way that it was meant to.
00:06:39.140And a good friend of mine recently has been completely, you know, screwed over by this.
00:06:43.960I mean, he's having big problems in terms of custody of his child.
00:06:47.400And, you know, you go down that traditional route and suddenly the rug gets pulled out from under you.
00:06:52.420So, again, you know, I'm not saying don't do it, but I think you do have to proceed with caution and realize what the reality of the situation is now.
00:06:58.300Yeah. What are you guys's thoughts on his tweet?
00:07:01.780I mean, I can see why it's controversial.
00:07:03.700And I understand, like, I understand it from both perspectives because I'm married and I see the value in marriage.
00:07:10.280And I think that marriage is really important.
00:07:11.920And, you know, I love my husband and he loves me and he protects me.
00:07:24.340So there's, like, the romantic in me and the woman in me that, you know, that values marriage.
00:07:29.340But at the same time, also being a lawyer, I understand how the law discriminates against men.
00:07:35.620I understand how, especially when it comes to divorce, custody battles, division of the assets, all of these types of things are all against men.
00:07:45.700And it's true what you said, Troy, about how the Tradcorn sort of talk about marriage as the ultimate goal.
00:07:50.340And they don't necessarily talk about the risks that come with it.
00:07:54.280And so, yeah, like you said, men get blindsided.
00:08:19.580Yeah, I think it's a lot less guaranteed to be able to get a vasectomy reversed versus using other methods of birth control.
00:08:26.840I think that when it comes to contraception, that's probably the number one way to go about it.
00:08:31.500If you're not sure about having children, if you feel like it might be something that you want, but you want to increase your values and assets.
00:08:38.320So I feel like instead of going the whole route of vasectomy, which you possibly can't reverse it in a lot of cases, a better method instead is, like, okay,
00:08:46.000make sure that your partner's on contraception, that you're using contraception, make sure that your plan gets safe.
00:08:50.960Do you trust these chicks to tell you if you're on contraception?
00:08:53.940You know how many guys I know that have been?
00:08:56.520I mean, yeah, you don't have to trust them.
00:09:00.260But you should also use a condom, right?
00:09:02.840I'm just saying try to cover as many bases as you possibly can if you're not certain about having children, but you don't want to completely cut that possibility.
00:09:11.160Because I think having children for a lot of people is a very fulfilling experience that means a lot to them.
00:09:17.420I mean, just on this vasectomy point, I would say I think that the argument that it is reversible, I think I would treat that with a lot of skepticism personally.
00:12:12.620But it is just interesting, the response to a man talking about something like a vasectomy.
00:12:17.100But, yeah, no one's screaming at all of the women about the fact that all of us are on birth control.
00:12:22.920I know, 90% of us have been on birth control at one point or another.
00:12:26.320Yeah, I think it's important to recognize, though, that although if you, like, mis-properly use birth control,
00:12:31.820like if you use plan B as your main source of contraception, then, yeah, that can lead to infertility.
00:12:36.920But overall, the methods of birth control are a lot, like, safer and not very permanent compared to a vasectomy.
00:12:43.320Well, I mean, I disagree with that because I think that they tell us that birth control is safe
00:12:48.260and they tell us that birth control has no permanent effects on us.
00:12:51.380But at the end of the day, you're pumping synthetic hormones.
00:12:53.640If you're taking the pill or you've got, like, the marina in your arm, you're pumping synthetic hormones into your body.
00:12:59.580And we have absolutely no idea what that does on a long-term basis.
00:13:03.180And imagine being the woman who's been told it's been safe your whole life and then you cannot have it.
00:13:07.920Yeah, let's talk about the contradictions.
00:13:09.580How about the fact that the NHS website tells you that when you're on the pill, it can reduce your chances of cancer
00:13:15.080when there are studies left, right and centre proving that actually being on the pill increases your chance of getting certain types of cancer.
00:13:23.220So let's not forget the fact that a lot of these stories that are talking about birth control being a safe option for women
00:13:29.580and a lot of the public health authorities that are saying that it's a safe option for women, there's an agenda behind that.
00:13:35.420And a lot of it is to do with the fact that, like anything, it's a business and there's money to be made.
00:13:38.820So let's not be ignorant to that fact.
00:13:40.520Well, to be completely fair, when you're talking about, like, oh, synthetic hormones, we don't know what they do, et cetera, et cetera.
00:13:46.380The fact is, like, there has been a lot of data about how birth control can actually, like, help with hormonal regulations.
00:13:52.420And although I would have agreed with you if we lived in a completely natural world,
00:13:56.320maybe that would be the case where it's like, oh, no, like, it causes more imbalances.
00:24:47.020I think my main problem with that argument is that you can technically say that everybody's trying to sell some sort of product, right?
00:24:52.640So you can be like, oh, people who are convincing you not to get IUDs are trying to convince you to have like, you know, children not safely.
00:24:59.940So that you have to like buy more materials for your children.
00:25:02.240Like they're trying to sell you diapers and baby products.
00:25:04.700That's why I always say like for me personally, it's like the number one thing I think we can go about is like common sense and what we see in the real world.
00:25:11.360And I just I just think like we've kind of lost as a society where it's like they want to convince you water isn't wet.
00:26:09.940Okay, I just, I think it's really interesting because like we were just having a conversation about like vasectomies and like how they can be useful when it comes to making sure you're having a children.
00:27:32.240I think when it comes to vasectomy, I think it's like a, it's like a choice thing because I think for one of the things I've been listening is there is this expectation in society of what makes like what makes you a happier person or what makes you live a more fruitful life.
00:27:45.620But I think no one really knows, right?
00:27:47.040So obviously there is the being responsible, being responsible.
00:27:53.580So, and I want to have, you know, a lot more children.
00:27:55.920So naturally from a personal standpoint, it's like, okay, I'm not, I wouldn't do a vasectomy.
00:28:00.280However, I wouldn't feel like, you know, I know enough to say to someone, don't ever do that because you'll make you feel unhappy because I don't know that.
00:28:30.220I would love to swim in the sea every morning.
00:28:31.940I think in an ideal world, I would swim in the sea every morning.
00:28:34.580But, I mean, you know, if we want to go to the letter of the law, if you look at the phrasing of the tweet, it doesn't say these are the things I've done to make me a high value man.
00:28:43.720It's a notional proposition of some factors that could add up to a high value man of which the vasectomy was, you know, a little bit jokey.
00:28:51.080I mean, if I'd have known it was going to hit 1.2 million or whatever it is, I probably might have rethought it a little bit.
00:28:55.900But, you know, at the same time, at the same time, I do think guys, you know, should be allowed to have that autonomy if they want to.
00:29:03.540I don't see why there should be any problem with that, really.
00:29:06.720Yeah, I'm a little bit confused about why you would ban it completely or why you would ban vasectomies and, like, birth control.
00:30:02.060Yeah, I think I mean, obviously, we're all well, I'm in disagreement with you guys when it comes to like the hormonal issues.
00:30:08.000But I do think when it comes to what you're talking about, like collapsing birth rate, a lot of people talk about it as it's like this inherently bad thing.
00:30:15.260But I don't really think of it that way.
00:30:17.360And the reason why I don't think of it that way is because having lots of children isn't good if those children aren't being raised right.
00:30:25.340Right. If those children are in like bad economic scenarios, if you're just having a lot of children to have a lot of children,
00:30:31.040you're not going to be able to have enough time or money to give them the attention and care that they need.
00:30:35.900I think in a lot of Western countries, you see like a lower birth rate.
00:30:39.500But in return, you see like a higher quality of life for a lot of these children compared to other places.
00:30:44.120I disagree. I think we'd have less mental health problems if that was true.
00:30:48.560Because what I see is more mental health issues in Western countries.
00:30:52.580I think what's much more likely is that in Western countries, you can actually get properly diagnosed while in developing countries.
00:30:58.840Like everything is so messed up there that it's hard to get a proper diagnosis, much less afford to go to a doctor, much less like afford to get.
00:31:05.680Have you spent a lot of time in developing countries?
00:32:21.700I think considering like I think me personally, I think considering how big the world is, like to have such a like, you know, generalized statement, I think you would like it would require traveling more and just experiencing it more.
00:32:31.080So I think because because it can become a dangerous rhetoric to say that from going to a few places and one of the things you referenced was, oh, you could check the index online.
00:32:38.200And I don't think that's like a representative of how those countries are conduct, like what's going on over there.
00:32:42.920Like maybe you should take a trip to more places and just have a look.
00:32:45.620OK, I have a I have a genuine question for you guys.
00:32:48.320Do you think that not being able to have food, water, access to like health means that your quality of life is going to be peachy and OK?
00:32:57.460Do you not think those things are relevant when you're determining the value of life by your materialistic, consumeristic possessions instead of health is not consumer.
00:33:08.440Health is literally how you feel about your body.
00:33:11.760How many drugs you can pump into your body.
00:33:41.360They don't like I mean, you can statistically like there's a very big difference between like, hey, you know, you're overweight and you can lose it versus you're not having access to clean water.
00:33:50.920You know, like these are vastly different things.
00:33:53.160Like one is actually much easier to remedy than the other.
00:33:58.460Where would you say they don't have access to clean water?
00:34:01.180Because didn't you say we don't have clean water either?
00:34:03.600I mean, there's a difference between like water that's going to give you like parasites and like, you know, like bacterial problems versus like water that might have like a few hormones in there.
00:34:14.560Like there's a very big difference between those two, I would say.
00:34:18.520When you travel to wherever you travel to where you saw where they have water that have parasites, was it like the whole city of like where you went to or was it like a fringe little village?
00:34:30.660I mean, in a lot of countries, they recommend for you to like not drink the water without a filter because drinking the water like can give you those problems.
00:34:39.540I visited the Wayu people, which is like a whole like basically northern area of Colombia.
00:34:45.640Their population is like over a million people.
00:35:53.660You think that America is the only place that has technology or has the answer to life.
00:36:01.120The reality is what you are speaking about when you are talking about Africans that live in poverty and all of that.
00:36:06.460The thing is, you haven't actually spoken to these people.
00:36:09.020You haven't actually had discussions with these people.
00:36:11.200The truth is, most people that live in a family, a family unit, no matter what their economic status is, are usually happier than people that live the way you live.
00:36:22.040And I'm speaking about this from personal experience.
00:36:25.500I grew up in an estate where it was literally like a family unit where in that little environment where we live, there were like more than a thousand different apartments.