kinsellacast - June 02, 2024


KINSELLACAST 314: Yossi Klein Halevi from Israel, plus Kheiriddin and Belanger - and Buzzcocks, Bauhaus, Magazine, PIL


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 10 minutes

Words per Minute

127.40791

Word Count

8,962

Sentence Count

340

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

56


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 it's the kinsella cast starring warren kinsella
00:00:08.480 hey it's warren welcome to the kinsella cast it's june i was just i was writing last night
00:00:24.820 you know the cliche you hear your entire life is time goes fast i think ferris bueller said that
00:00:32.320 too boy is it ever and when you're young you want it to go faster so you can get older and then when
00:00:38.720 you get older you want it to slow down so you can get younger anyway i'm probably in the latter
00:00:44.060 category sometimes i don't act like it um great show this week i've got um i think brian lily is
00:00:51.380 camping um but i've got an academic a professor a thinker a fighter an amazing guy yossi klein
00:01:02.040 hi levy um he and i talked for a long time this week so i'm gonna have our chat in two segments on
00:01:10.280 this week's podcast talking about holocaust inversion and some of the terrible things that have been
00:01:16.140 happening including in canada this week a synagogue firebombed in vancouver another school shot up
00:01:23.460 in montreal and a school shot up in toronto and in every case targeting jews and anybody who says we
00:01:33.160 don't have a problem is dreaming in technicolor or they're a liar or both we've got a big big problem
00:01:41.000 so i'll be talking about that on this week's episode and um i'm gonna have tasha keridan and
00:01:48.020 carl blanger hopefully and and i can't believe i'm about to say this go oilers like i'm from calgary
00:01:55.620 saying anything nice about edmonton or deadmonton as we called it like it's just it's really hard to
00:02:02.300 do it's really it's hard and anyway go oilers hopefully they do it but time we had some
00:02:10.620 canadians in the final like a team of canadians not individual canadians um this week i was driving
00:02:18.400 i do that a lot and apple music has an algorithm that picks and prods at my brain to find out what
00:02:26.940 i'd like and it found put together this list this playlist of post-punk stuff and i was listening
00:02:33.800 to it despite myself and man i was like there's good picks on here so i've taken my picks for this
00:02:40.240 week's show entirely from their list public image limited flowers of romance um very cool drum beat
00:02:49.260 and approach to the song on this one encourage you to listen to it song from under the floorboards
00:02:56.160 by hara devoto and magazine after he left the buzzcocks and then the buzzcocks playing fiction
00:03:02.300 romance a song that the hot nasties used to play we played it so well in fact people thought it was
00:03:06.700 ours but it was not and then i'm probably going to play crowds by bahos it was also on this list
00:03:12.280 so um from the river to the sea or sometimes from the river to the sea palestine will be free most of
00:03:19.800 the time it's the shorter version of that we see and lately we're seeing it on signs and
00:03:26.060 banners at canadian and american and european university campuses we hear it chanted by the
00:03:31.300 few students and the many non-students at those illegal occupations because that's what they are
00:03:37.500 they're illegal the ones that some in the media benignly refer to as encampments
00:03:42.600 from the river to the sea like the first time you hear it it sounds pretty innocuous it doesn't
00:03:49.060 seem to be explicitly advocating violence in fact there's nothing identified in it apart from palestine
00:03:57.200 it lacks the vehemence and the violence of genocide it's a mistake however to regard from the river to
00:04:04.960 the sea as anything other than the flip side of the genocide coin genocide is the crime from the river
00:04:12.860 to the sea is the remedy they are connected and have been used alternatively or together a huge number
00:04:20.280 of times since since october 7th on the search engine bing alone those words now produce more than 136
00:04:30.800 million results slogans been around for decades going back to the 40s but was seized upon by the terrorist
00:04:38.720 palestine liberation organization in the 60s and 70s and later formally adopted by hamas killers
00:04:46.540 in their 2017 revised charter article 20 of hamas's governing constitution states quote hamas rejects
00:04:55.620 any alternative to the full and complete liberation of palestine from from the river to the sea end quote
00:05:02.500 now for some idiotic pro-palestine protesters who don't seem to understand the full connotations of
00:05:10.420 the slogan and for hamas and its ilk who do understand the river referred to is the jordan to
00:05:18.280 israel's east and the sea is the mediterranean to the west so geographically logically that's all of
00:05:25.400 israel logically it means wiping out the jewish state still some say well it's just words what's
00:05:34.380 the problem well there's a problem talor cohen montomeor who's become a friend of mine she's a
00:05:40.440 brilliant lawyer who heads the intranet hate watchdog called cyberwell it's based in israel but she's on
00:05:47.520 this side of the ocean quite often and she finds online hate she and her team and overwhelmingly these
00:05:55.720 days it's hate against jews and then she pushes the social media platforms their owners and their
00:06:01.580 managers to remove it or at least make it show up less often the big platforms like meta which is
00:06:08.920 facebook and instagram mainly and together those two they have more than five billion users worldwide
00:06:16.260 they have in the past removed content that promotes hate and violence the q anon conspiracy theory
00:06:23.380 slogan for example is where go one we go all meta started terminating accounts that promoted that
00:06:30.400 phrase a few years ago because it was what the experts call militarized content montomeor wants to
00:06:38.460 see meta and the other social media mavens do likewise with from the river to the sea so last week she
00:06:45.600 appeared before meta's oversight board which makes those decisions and her report makes for compelling
00:06:51.980 reading she pointed out in it that um basically you're finding that phrase everywhere to harass target
00:07:00.960 or commit violence against jews synagogues in philadelphia barcelona been vandalized with it like
00:07:08.660 the black september terror group that slaughtered 11 israeli athletes in 1972 at the olympics
00:07:13.720 they used it there at that site as a rallying cry it's been used in all these illegal college
00:07:21.300 solidarity encampments when physically restricting or harassing or threatening or spitting on or
00:07:27.640 physically attacking jewish students and members of the press members of the public and she said to me
00:07:34.220 it means something very clear to jews it is a veiled term to advocate committing genocide against jews living
00:07:40.760 in israel and to destroy the israeli state obviously and it isn't what the pro-hamas anti-israel
00:07:48.380 cabal claim the words mean that matters it's how the words are heard by the intended victim which is jews
00:07:55.880 anyway she acknowledges the phrase can mean different things different people and she agrees freedom of
00:08:01.720 speech needs to be protected always but when that slogan is being used with acts of violence and hate
00:08:07.280 against jews that's when its true meaning becomes clear you can't ignore the real world damage that
00:08:13.480 slogan is causing it's being used to incite and mobilize violent acts she told me hateful words
00:08:20.900 always precede hateful deeds hate against jews or christians or muslims or sikhs or hindus is always
00:08:27.900 expressed first in words right now all over canada those deceptive words from the river to the sea
00:08:36.660 are being heard and seen everywhere and jews know what those innocuous sounding words truly mean
00:08:43.820 the end of israel and later them
00:08:48.180 so
00:08:59.800 so
00:09:00.400 Thank you.
00:09:30.400 Thank you.
00:10:00.400 Thank you.
00:10:30.400 Thank you.
00:11:00.400 Thank you.
00:11:30.400 What is Holocaust Inversion?
00:11:36.040 Thank you.
00:11:38.040 So Holocaust Inversion is turning the Holocaust, the memory of the Holocaust, against the Jewish people, using the Holocaust as one more stick with which to beat the Jews.
00:11:56.160 And the way that plays out in the Middle East conflict is by invoking Holocaust imagery to criminalize Israel.
00:12:13.280 Israel becomes Nazi Germany.
00:12:15.760 The Palestinians become the victims of the Nazis.
00:12:21.180 Gaza is the Gaza ghetto echoing the Warsaw ghetto.
00:12:27.080 And, of course, this war has introduced the word genocide into the equation so that it is Israel, which is the successor state to Nazi Germany and the heir to its genocidal program.
00:12:50.520 So on that word genocide, because certainly that's where I've been focused, what is their objective in making an allegation that to so many fair-minded people is absurd?
00:13:08.520 Like it's Saturnalian.
00:13:10.520 Why are they doing that?
00:13:12.520 Well, first of all, because it's working.
00:13:15.520 And by accusing Israel of genocide, you remove any legitimacy to the Jewish state.
00:13:29.720 But there's been a progression of accusations against Israel, beginning with colonialism, moving to ethnic cleansing, accelerating to apartheid, and culminating in genocide.
00:13:46.720 There's nowhere to go after genocide.
00:13:49.040 This is the ultimate crime.
00:13:51.920 And if Israel is a genocidal state, like Nazi Germany, then it is incapable of waging a legitimate war of self-defense because a genocidal state has no right to self-defense.
00:14:09.660 Nazi Germany in World War II was not defending itself.
00:14:13.960 It was an aggressor and a murderous state that needed to be defeated and destroyed.
00:14:23.120 And so the goal of the anti-Zionists is not to end the occupation of the West Bank and create a two-state solution.
00:14:32.340 The goal is to delegitimize the existence of Israel as a necessary prelude to justifying its destruction.
00:14:47.400 Who is making most use of this, you know, false allegation?
00:14:56.960 So I guess what you're saying is the genocide allegation is an inversion of the Holocaust.
00:15:05.500 But who is making the most use of it?
00:15:08.540 And to whom is it most directed these days?
00:15:11.480 My personal theory is Gen Z and millennials.
00:15:14.580 It's working like gangbusters.
00:15:16.600 You've been doing a university tour.
00:15:18.820 It seems to be a lot of pickup there.
00:15:21.480 Yeah, yeah.
00:15:22.340 The genocidal accusation is aimed at young people in the West who were raised, who were educated to see the Holocaust rightfully as the ultimate crime.
00:15:39.620 And so if you can pin the Holocaust on its victims, then the Jews no longer have a moral claim on the West.
00:15:58.680 And Iran's supreme leader, Khamenei, said this very explicitly.
00:16:05.280 Iran has been leading the Holocaust denial campaign, denying any historical legitimacy to the Holocaust.
00:16:17.220 And he said that if you can deny Israel the protection of the Holocaust, then it will be defenseless.
00:16:27.720 And Iran's Holocaust denial did not resonate in the West.
00:16:37.760 It didn't work.
00:16:40.140 This is a much more effective strategy.
00:16:43.500 Don't deny the Holocaust.
00:16:45.100 Don't deny the facts of the Holocaust.
00:16:47.340 There were gas chambers.
00:16:49.060 Six million Jews were killed.
00:16:50.560 But the outrage now is to accuse the children and grandchildren of the Holocaust survivors of doing exactly what was done to their families.
00:17:04.080 And that's a much more effective way of delegitimizing Israel, of stripping the Jews of their own history, not by clumsy attempts to deny the historicity of the Holocaust, but simply by shifting the burden of genocide to the Jews.
00:17:30.000 Why is it, you know, we've both seen the data, and regrettably, the data in Canada is just as shitty.
00:17:39.220 You know, I've seen stuff that some of my colleagues have done before, just actually on the heels of the 7th, indicating, you know, 41% of Gen Z Canadians believe the Holocaust was a hoax and that Hamas was entitled to do what it did.
00:17:55.380 Harvard's done the same thing.
00:17:56.820 Why is it, why do you think this outrageous lie is getting so much pickup with kids, with young people?
00:18:06.040 Well, first of all, there's a, I think, well, I think it's a convergence of the thinness and lack of historical memory of social media.
00:18:26.820 Along with a culture, a political culture that divides the world according to perceived victims and victimizers.
00:18:43.980 Intersectionality has created this maddeningly simplistic division of humanity into noble victims and evil victimizers.
00:19:09.760 And history is rarely so neat.
00:19:14.760 And this conflict, the Arab-Israeli conflict, is messier and more complicated than most.
00:19:26.760 And so applying, applying the, the, the, the, the, the, the, ahistorical approach of social media combined with the, the, the, the ideological, um, um, distortions of intersectionality.
00:19:55.760 To, to Israel results in turning the Jews from a people that heroically overcame, uh, the worst oppression that any people ever experienced.
00:20:13.760 Into their enemies, into their enemies, into their worst enemies, uh, and doing so while the Jews are protecting themselves from a truly genocidal enemy.
00:20:28.760 So the inversion is happening on multiple layers.
00:20:33.760 It's turning Israel into, into Nazi Germany.
00:20:37.760 It's turning the genocidal Hamas, uh, into victims.
00:20:42.760 And what we're seeing is one of the most extraordinary distortions, uh, in, in, of, of reality, of political reality in the world today.
00:20:57.760 Mm-hmm.
00:21:00.000 One of my, um, um, uh, my discussions with polling people, I say, you know, why aren't these young people who are attending elite colleges and universities across North America and Western Europe, why are they so susceptible?
00:21:13.980 They said, well, you know, during the, they, they feel, and I think they're right, the pandemic played a role.
00:21:19.600 So, you know, these kids lost their prom dances and they lost their commencement exercises.
00:21:25.080 So they actually became the most online demographic in human history and, and Iran and Qatar and the bad guys were all there and, and working this well before the seventh.
00:21:36.940 What do you think about that one?
00:21:38.460 Oh, absolutely.
00:21:39.420 Absolutely.
00:21:40.080 And, and look, the truth is that, that in academia, the ground has been prepared for decades.
00:21:48.780 Yeah.
00:21:49.600 Going back to the 1970s and 80s, when Middle Eastern studies were almost completely politicized and, and the, and the anti-Zionist sentiment that emerged, um, from, from the, from those departments, gradually spread to other parts of the humanities.
00:22:14.660 Mm-hmm.
00:22:14.940 And, and, and, and, and today, anti-Zionism is normative on, on, on liberal campuses.
00:22:23.140 Mm-hmm.
00:22:24.220 And, um, every, every, every part of, of, of Zionist and Israeli history has been placed under a microscope.
00:22:37.420 So that, so that, so that, so that all of Israel's transgressions, real, real or imagined, have been magnified, while the transgressions of the other side have either been, um, minimized or outright dismissed.
00:22:58.420 Mm-hmm.
00:22:59.340 Mm-hmm.
00:22:59.900 I'll give you an example.
00:23:01.020 I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin
00:23:22.900 My irritability keeps me alive and kicking
00:23:31.340 I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit
00:23:39.780 I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it
00:23:48.460 This is the sun from under the walls
00:23:54.440 This is the sun from where the wall is cracked
00:23:58.380 My force of habit, I am an insect
00:24:02.980 I have to confess, I'm proud as hell, I've cracked
00:24:18.460 I know the highest and the best
00:24:26.440 I accord them all due respect
00:24:34.440 But the brightest jewel inside of me
00:24:38.420 Glows with pleasure at my own stupidity
00:24:46.440 This is the sun from under the walls
00:24:52.420 This is the sun from where the wall is cracked
00:24:57.060 My force of habit, I am an insect
00:25:01.520 I have to confess, I'm proud as hell, I've cracked
00:25:05.420 You still make phantoms
00:25:35.040 You still make phantoms, I'm proud as hell, I am
00:25:42.060 Images of all that could be designed
00:25:47.960 Then I got tired of counting all these blessings
00:25:57.640 And then I just got tired
00:26:02.180 This is a song from under the floor
00:26:08.480 This is a song from where the wall is cracked
00:26:12.460 My force of habit, I am an insane
00:26:16.920 I have to confess some brothers held that back
00:26:20.840 This is a song from under the floor
00:26:25.080 This is a song from where the wall is cracked
00:26:29.280 My force of habit, I am an insane
00:26:33.600 I have to confess some brothers held that back
00:26:37.680 Habit
00:26:55.080 In 1941
00:27:00.780 A minuscule Jewish underground
00:27:10.120 Anti-British underground called the Stern Group
00:27:15.600 Big Ends Group
00:27:17.540 Which had about 40 members
00:27:20.820 Tried to initiate contact with Nazi Germany
00:27:26.360 To create what it imagined would be a joint Zionist Nazi alliance against the British
00:27:38.360 Who were occupying the land at the time
00:27:42.020 The Nazis spurned the overture
00:27:46.700 The overwhelming majority of the Zionist movement
00:27:51.400 Dismissed the Stern Group as madmen
00:27:55.700 And sided with the British in World War II
00:28:00.720 This story is often used in anti-Zionist circles
00:28:09.980 As, quote, proof
00:28:11.920 That the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis
00:28:16.820 Meanwhile, the real story of collaboration
00:28:22.740 Which was the leader of the Palestinian national movement
00:28:28.560 Haj Amin al-Husseini
00:28:30.760 Who sat in Berlin
00:28:33.700 As Hitler's guest during World War II
00:28:36.800 Is completely overlooked
00:28:39.400 In anti-Zionist academic circles
00:28:44.040 He was the most important Palestinian leader
00:28:48.180 In the pre-state period
00:28:52.080 And he was leading efforts to recruit Muslims
00:28:57.100 For the SS
00:28:59.420 And spreading Nazi propaganda throughout the Arab world
00:29:05.120 And so this is a classic example
00:29:09.760 Of you take an absurdly fringe phenomenon
00:29:14.100 On the Jewish side
00:29:16.520 Turn that into a major story
00:29:20.820 And ignore the real story of pro-Nazi collaboration
00:29:24.840 That was happening on the Palestinian side
00:29:27.440 And it testifies to the susceptibility of people
00:29:31.520 To conspiracy theory stuff these days as well
00:29:34.360 Absolutely
00:29:35.440 Or another example
00:29:38.000 Theodor Herzl wrote a multi-volume
00:29:44.880 Theodor Herzl, the founder of political Zionism
00:29:47.620 Wrote a multi-volume diary
00:29:50.840 When he would write about his vision
00:29:56.420 Of future Jewish-Arab relations
00:29:59.380 In a Jewish state
00:30:00.660 It was always
00:30:02.920 It was almost always utopian
00:30:07.100 The peace and equality
00:30:11.080 And prosperity for all
00:30:13.600 But there's one line
00:30:16.320 In Herzl's diary
00:30:18.300 That suggests
00:30:20.520 The possible removal
00:30:23.140 Of
00:30:23.940 It doesn't say who
00:30:29.840 But of
00:30:30.560 The population
00:30:32.620 To a neighboring country
00:30:34.100 That line
00:30:35.580 That line
00:30:35.600 Has become
00:30:36.320 Emblematic
00:30:37.400 Of Herzl's
00:30:38.960 Attitude
00:30:39.920 Toward
00:30:40.680 Toward the Arabs
00:30:41.920 Ignoring
00:30:43.640 The overwhelming literature
00:30:46.280 Excuse me
00:30:48.600 Not at all
00:30:49.720 Produced by Herzl
00:30:51.320 That
00:30:52.380 That points in the opposite direction
00:30:55.060 Yeah
00:30:55.940 My voice is going
00:30:57.960 Because I
00:30:58.560 I just
00:30:59.980 No, no
00:31:00.380 We can keep talking
00:31:01.540 I just apologize
00:31:02.440 Well, I just have one more for you
00:31:04.160 I promise not to impose
00:31:06.040 And do you on your side
00:31:07.100 I just
00:31:07.600 I just got home a couple days ago
00:31:09.620 From a three-month lecture tour
00:31:11.740 So
00:31:12.100 I'm a little bit
00:31:13.440 I saw
00:31:14.440 Where is home?
00:31:15.900 Are you in
00:31:16.420 The United States?
00:31:18.180 In Jerusalem
00:31:18.780 In Jerusalem
00:31:19.920 Okay, well, I just got back
00:31:21.400 I was in Israel a week ago
00:31:23.140 Oh, I'm sorry I missed you
00:31:24.960 Yeah, I went
00:31:26.280 It was
00:31:26.900 It was
00:31:27.640 It was a media mission
00:31:29.480 We went to all the sad places
00:31:31.560 And boy
00:31:32.300 It was brutal
00:31:33.440 We went to the kibbutzim
00:31:35.200 And Sederat
00:31:35.960 And
00:31:36.340 It was awful
00:31:37.660 Like it was just
00:31:38.580 I've been writing
00:31:40.240 I've written a number of books
00:31:42.020 About racism
00:31:42.760 And antisemitism
00:31:43.620 Over the years
00:31:44.380 But seeing the crime scenes
00:31:46.460 Because that's what they truly were
00:31:47.980 Was just
00:31:49.040 Anyways
00:31:50.060 I don't think I'm out of it yet
00:31:52.140 But I mean
00:31:53.080 I think
00:31:54.040 What I'm trying to do
00:31:55.220 In this book
00:31:55.840 And documentary
00:31:56.680 Can you recommend
00:31:57.900 Can you recommend
00:31:59.640 A book to me
00:32:00.380 That you've
00:32:00.900 That you've written
00:32:01.600 I'd be
00:32:02.600 I'd be honoured
00:32:03.360 To send you one
00:32:04.280 I've done one
00:32:05.260 The one that's been
00:32:06.860 Printed most often
00:32:08.120 Is on the Canadian
00:32:10.000 Far-right
00:32:11.060 Antisemitic movement
00:32:13.880 It's called
00:32:14.740 Web of Hate
00:32:15.560 And Harper Collins
00:32:16.860 Published that
00:32:17.680 And it just documents
00:32:19.180 All of these different
00:32:19.980 So that's kind of
00:32:20.760 What I'm doing here
00:32:21.880 Is trying to suggest
00:32:24.120 To people
00:32:24.740 Well you know
00:32:25.400 Those protesters
00:32:26.100 You're seeing on your TV
00:32:27.280 And computer screens
00:32:28.340 A lot of them are paid
00:32:29.820 And those organisers
00:32:31.240 You're seeing
00:32:31.760 Many and most of them
00:32:32.940 Are paid
00:32:33.420 And there's a great degree
00:32:35.160 Of organisers
00:32:35.560 Because all the political guys
00:32:36.860 I know
00:32:37.160 I've talked to Carville
00:32:38.240 And others
00:32:38.880 You know
00:32:40.060 I've worked with them
00:32:40.660 In another context
00:32:41.620 I said you know
00:32:42.320 Take a look at this stuff
00:32:44.260 What do you think?
00:32:45.520 This is an exceedingly
00:32:48.520 Well organised
00:32:49.400 Well financed
00:32:50.440 Propaganda campaign
00:32:51.520 Some of them
00:32:52.320 Are saying to me
00:32:52.820 This is the best one
00:32:53.440 They've ever seen
00:32:53.980 In their lifetime
00:32:54.760 No it's certainly
00:32:57.540 One of the most successful
00:32:58.660 Yeah
00:32:59.740 So I don't want to
00:33:01.720 Depress the hell
00:33:02.560 Out of people
00:33:03.260 In my book
00:33:04.540 Or documentary
00:33:05.380 But I do want to
00:33:06.920 You know
00:33:07.500 Because you've been out there
00:33:08.460 Talking to the kids
00:33:09.580 It's something
00:33:10.000 I haven't done yet
00:33:11.160 I've taught
00:33:12.240 I'm a lawyer
00:33:13.800 So I've taught
00:33:14.560 It to young law students
00:33:16.440 What is
00:33:18.560 The way
00:33:19.800 To make things better?
00:33:21.660 What do you think
00:33:22.540 Is the prescription
00:33:23.440 For dealing
00:33:25.360 With the problem
00:33:27.000 We've got
00:33:27.420 Particularly
00:33:28.080 With this younger demographic?
00:33:31.780 Warren
00:33:32.460 I don't know
00:33:33.340 I don't know
00:33:35.200 I'm feeling so
00:33:37.920 Overwhelmed
00:33:39.600 At the moment
00:33:40.240 Yeah
00:33:41.240 That
00:33:42.060 All I can do
00:33:44.200 Is
00:33:45.020 Is
00:33:45.860 Write and speak
00:33:48.380 In the way
00:33:49.420 That I have
00:33:50.300 Until now
00:33:51.400 But I feel
00:33:52.640 That it's increasingly
00:33:53.580 Inadequate
00:33:54.360 Yeah
00:33:55.420 And
00:33:56.260 It almost
00:33:57.300 Doesn't matter
00:33:58.420 What one says
00:34:01.040 Because
00:34:02.360 What we're really
00:34:05.720 Looking at
00:34:06.680 Is a
00:34:08.740 It's a
00:34:10.880 Cultural war
00:34:11.900 Yeah
00:34:12.960 In which Israel
00:34:14.260 Is perceived
00:34:15.060 To be on the wrong side
00:34:16.420 And
00:34:18.240 And
00:34:19.060 And so
00:34:19.800 If your identity
00:34:21.060 Becomes
00:34:23.160 If your identity
00:34:24.860 As a young progressive
00:34:26.200 Becomes linked
00:34:28.800 To your
00:34:29.760 Position on
00:34:30.720 Zionism
00:34:31.340 And Israel
00:34:31.960 Then it's not
00:34:33.880 A question
00:34:34.560 Of coming up
00:34:36.280 With
00:34:36.980 Convincing
00:34:38.040 Facts
00:34:38.840 Or even
00:34:40.240 A compelling
00:34:40.880 Counter-narrative
00:34:42.380 Because
00:34:44.660 You're asking
00:34:47.480 Young people
00:34:48.360 To
00:34:49.900 To give up
00:34:53.000 An essential part
00:34:54.120 Of what they see
00:34:55.640 As themselves
00:34:56.600 Mm-hmm
00:34:58.000 So I don't know
00:35:01.200 How to fight that
00:35:02.040 Yeah
00:35:02.700 It's
00:35:03.140 It feels like
00:35:03.960 A 10-year project
00:35:05.080 You know
00:35:05.520 I think
00:35:06.400 You know
00:35:07.060 The
00:35:07.320 The labor movement
00:35:08.860 You know
00:35:09.680 We can work
00:35:10.120 On changing
00:35:10.520 Leadership
00:35:11.040 Academia
00:35:11.860 Look on
00:35:13.300 Changing the
00:35:14.140 Leadership there
00:35:14.740 That's underway
00:35:15.380 In Canada
00:35:16.160 And the United States
00:35:16.900 But the young people
00:35:18.160 Piece
00:35:18.520 I agree with you
00:35:19.460 It feels like
00:35:20.720 We've got a decade
00:35:21.540 Of work ahead of us
00:35:22.780 Oh I think
00:35:23.840 We have a generation
00:35:24.740 Of work
00:35:25.660 Yeah
00:35:26.580 Yeah
00:35:27.780 Listen
00:35:29.280 I thank you so much
00:35:31.200 I know you're busy
00:35:32.400 And beat
00:35:33.160 From being on the road
00:35:34.300 If I can impose
00:35:35.740 Upon you
00:35:36.300 As I move along
00:35:37.180 Because you've done
00:35:38.000 If I can just
00:35:39.600 Slip you an email
00:35:40.580 And say
00:35:41.120 What do you think
00:35:41.900 Here's where I'm going
00:35:43.280 Would that work
00:35:44.340 Would that
00:35:44.700 Whatever I can do
00:35:46.060 To help
00:35:46.480 Awesome
00:35:47.700 Listen
00:35:48.540 Well get some rest
00:35:49.680 God bless you
00:35:51.020 You're doing God's work
00:35:52.300 And I'll keep you
00:35:54.080 Post on what I'm up to
00:35:55.360 Both the
00:35:56.440 Documentary
00:35:57.260 And the book
00:35:58.100 And I'm so grateful
00:35:59.420 For the time
00:36:00.480 You've given me
00:36:01.140 Really any time
00:36:02.580 Where do you live
00:36:03.660 In Canada
00:36:04.180 So I'm living
00:36:05.740 I live outside
00:36:06.520 Toronto
00:36:07.060 In a place
00:36:07.600 Called Prince Edward
00:36:08.300 County
00:36:08.680 Where all the
00:36:09.300 Empire loyalists
00:36:10.420 Fled
00:36:10.820 After the
00:36:11.400 American Revolution
00:36:12.500 And
00:36:13.980 But I've got a
00:36:14.880 Place in Toronto
00:36:15.680 And
00:36:16.900 You know
00:36:17.700 My background
00:36:18.300 Is
00:36:18.800 As I said
00:36:19.360 Politics
00:36:20.080 And that's
00:36:21.300 Where I
00:36:21.640 Cottoned on
00:36:22.340 To this story
00:36:23.260 Is you know
00:36:24.200 I was despairing
00:36:25.200 Of everything
00:36:25.600 That was taking
00:36:26.000 Place
00:36:26.340 Because I've
00:36:26.720 Been
00:36:26.900 Even though
00:36:27.540 I'm a Catholic
00:36:28.100 I've been
00:36:28.520 A Zionist
00:36:29.120 For my
00:36:29.420 Entire life
00:36:30.120 And
00:36:31.120 I
00:36:32.440 I just
00:36:33.400 It's when
00:36:33.800 My light bulb
00:36:34.360 Went off
00:36:34.680 In my head
00:36:35.120 I said
00:36:35.340 Holy shit
00:36:36.120 This is
00:36:36.980 This is
00:36:37.000 Like a
00:36:37.380 Really
00:36:37.800 Well run
00:36:38.520 Campaign
00:36:39.060 You know
00:36:39.560 I've seen
00:36:40.060 The manuals
00:36:40.980 And the
00:36:41.280 Graphics
00:36:41.940 And here's
00:36:42.780 The lawyer
00:36:43.240 You contact
00:36:43.980 If you're
00:36:44.540 Arrested
00:36:45.100 At the
00:36:45.340 Protest
00:36:45.720 And here's
00:36:46.840 The signage
00:36:47.540 We've developed
00:36:48.240 For you
00:36:48.740 And the
00:36:48.980 Banners
00:36:49.340 And all
00:36:49.720 The rest
00:36:50.080 Of it
00:36:50.420 Like it's
00:36:51.380 Extraordinarily
00:36:52.920 Complex
00:36:53.760 Campaign that
00:36:54.640 They're running
00:36:55.140 Here
00:36:55.540 And there's
00:36:56.980 Obviously a
00:36:57.520 Lot of
00:36:57.800 Doe
00:36:58.120 And a lot
00:36:58.560 Of organization
00:36:59.060 Behind it
00:36:59.780 So that
00:37:00.480 You know
00:37:01.100 I'm looking
00:37:01.500 At it
00:37:01.860 Online
00:37:02.260 I'm looking
00:37:02.700 On it
00:37:03.140 In the
00:37:03.540 Streets
00:37:04.060 And so
00:37:05.060 On
00:37:05.300 And there's
00:37:07.260 One woman
00:37:07.720 I've dealt
00:37:08.240 With quite
00:37:08.640 A bit
00:37:09.060 Talor
00:37:10.440 Cohen
00:37:10.940 Montemayor
00:37:11.740 She's in
00:37:12.720 Tel Aviv
00:37:13.200 And she's
00:37:14.560 Brilliant
00:37:14.940 And you
00:37:16.460 Know her
00:37:16.840 Thesis is
00:37:17.640 Mine
00:37:18.040 Basically this
00:37:20.180 Started
00:37:20.780 On the
00:37:22.100 Morning of
00:37:22.880 The 7th
00:37:23.780 Right so
00:37:24.200 They flicked
00:37:24.700 A switch
00:37:25.260 It was
00:37:26.040 Principally
00:37:26.600 In Arabic
00:37:27.140 For the
00:37:27.640 First three
00:37:28.060 Or four
00:37:28.400 Days
00:37:28.800 By the
00:37:29.580 10th
00:37:29.900 And the
00:37:30.140 11th
00:37:30.780 They started
00:37:31.400 To surge
00:37:32.060 Tested
00:37:32.920 You know
00:37:33.640 Geo
00:37:34.140 Demographic
00:37:35.440 Messaging
00:37:37.620 In English
00:37:38.760 Around the
00:37:39.800 World
00:37:40.120 Centred in
00:37:41.960 United States
00:37:42.940 And Britain
00:37:43.420 And to some
00:37:44.360 Extent in
00:37:44.880 Canada
00:37:45.280 And it's
00:37:46.360 Just you
00:37:47.040 Know and
00:37:47.340 They have
00:37:47.560 Different messaging
00:37:48.260 For different
00:37:48.840 Platforms
00:37:49.600 They say one
00:37:50.080 Thing on
00:37:50.380 Facebook
00:37:50.740 Because you
00:37:51.240 Know it's
00:37:51.500 Predominantly
00:37:52.180 Older folks
00:37:53.440 They say one
00:37:54.080 Thing on
00:37:54.480 TikTok
00:37:54.800 Which is
00:37:55.880 Obviously a
00:37:56.380 Huge problem
00:37:56.920 Like it's a
00:37:57.800 Really well
00:37:58.480 Integrated
00:37:59.080 Campaign
00:37:59.480 So my
00:37:59.920 Hope is to
00:38:00.700 Expose
00:38:01.380 That
00:38:01.720 And because
00:38:03.400 My part
00:38:04.300 Of my
00:38:04.580 Solution
00:38:05.040 Is to
00:38:06.180 Say to
00:38:06.620 These young
00:38:07.060 People you
00:38:07.860 Have been
00:38:08.220 Hoodwinked
00:38:09.260 You've been
00:38:09.640 Manipulated
00:38:10.320 By people
00:38:11.040 Who want you
00:38:12.060 To believe
00:38:12.460 There are
00:38:12.800 Jewish space
00:38:13.440 Lasers and
00:38:14.600 You shouldn't
00:38:15.440 And you
00:38:16.680 Know you're
00:38:17.000 Being taken
00:38:18.000 Advantage of
00:38:18.740 So that's
00:38:19.460 Well I'm
00:38:20.520 I'm deeply
00:38:21.280 Grateful and
00:38:22.240 It's actually
00:38:23.320 Not surprising
00:38:24.300 To me that
00:38:24.960 You're Catholic
00:38:25.560 Because I
00:38:26.240 Think there's
00:38:26.840 And I
00:38:28.100 Thought this
00:38:28.480 For a
00:38:28.760 Long time
00:38:29.420 A big
00:38:30.500 Divide
00:38:31.580 Between
00:38:32.640 Catholicism
00:38:34.600 And the
00:38:36.300 Mainline
00:38:36.940 Liberal
00:38:37.440 Churches
00:38:38.160 Especially
00:38:38.960 On this
00:38:39.620 Issue
00:38:40.080 And I
00:38:42.120 Have found
00:38:42.740 For
00:38:43.480 I mean I
00:38:44.420 Personally
00:38:44.960 Am just
00:38:45.800 I'm close
00:38:47.880 To some
00:38:48.460 Monastic
00:38:49.460 Communities
00:38:50.200 Here in
00:38:50.760 Israel
00:38:51.140 And I
00:38:53.080 Have
00:38:53.360 Actually
00:38:54.140 Wrote a
00:38:54.560 Book about
00:38:55.040 A journey
00:38:55.460 That I
00:38:55.820 Took into
00:38:57.140 Christianity
00:38:58.640 And Islam
00:38:59.440 In Israel
00:39:00.860 And it
00:39:02.660 Was mostly
00:39:03.180 Into Catholic
00:39:04.780 Monastic
00:39:05.920 Communities
00:39:06.560 And I
00:39:08.620 Have long
00:39:09.100 Despair
00:39:09.720 Of the
00:39:10.720 Mainline
00:39:11.180 Churches
00:39:11.920 But feel
00:39:13.140 That we
00:39:15.100 Really have
00:39:16.040 A chance
00:39:18.140 To make
00:39:18.540 Our case
00:39:19.160 Among Catholics
00:39:20.380 And I
00:39:21.040 Know it's
00:39:21.520 Mixed
00:39:22.260 There
00:39:22.420 I know
00:39:22.660 It's
00:39:22.820 Complicated
00:39:23.460 There are
00:39:24.260 And
00:39:25.280 And we're
00:39:25.720 Losing
00:39:26.060 We're
00:39:26.780 Really
00:39:27.000 Losing
00:39:27.360 Ground
00:39:27.840 But
00:39:28.640 I
00:39:29.180 Don't
00:39:29.980 Sense
00:39:30.500 At all
00:39:31.140 The same
00:39:32.380 Hatred
00:39:33.460 For Israel
00:39:34.080 As I
00:39:35.680 Feel
00:39:36.020 In the
00:39:36.620 Mainline
00:39:37.220 Churches
00:39:37.880 Including
00:39:38.420 In Canada
00:39:39.080 You know
00:39:40.140 Canada's
00:39:41.140 Got a
00:39:41.380 Big
00:39:41.540 Problem
00:39:41.940 Yeah
00:39:42.700 Depending
00:39:44.120 On which
00:39:44.500 Metrics
00:39:45.040 You apply
00:39:45.560 To it
00:39:46.100 Canada's
00:39:47.360 You know
00:39:47.860 Competitive
00:39:48.580 With Britain
00:39:49.220 And
00:39:49.600 France
00:39:50.760 With
00:39:51.420 Expressions
00:39:52.460 Of
00:39:52.620 Anti-Semitism
00:39:53.280 But
00:39:53.580 Yeah
00:39:53.800 You know
00:39:54.200 As my
00:39:54.680 Pope
00:39:55.040 Says
00:39:55.460 As flawed
00:39:56.540 As he
00:39:56.960 May be
00:39:57.540 We regard
00:39:59.160 Anti-Semitism
00:39:59.920 As a mortal
00:40:00.660 Sin
00:40:00.960 It's a sin
00:40:01.460 Against
00:40:01.800 God
00:40:02.140 So that
00:40:03.420 Is my
00:40:03.840 Personal
00:40:04.300 Belief
00:40:04.760 Well
00:40:05.620 I'm
00:40:06.020 Honored
00:40:06.860 To help
00:40:08.020 You
00:40:08.260 If I
00:40:08.800 Can
00:40:09.240 And
00:40:09.900 God be
00:40:10.560 With
00:40:10.800 You
00:40:11.020 Okay
00:40:11.940 Well
00:40:12.220 And
00:40:12.660 With
00:40:13.160 You
00:40:13.420 So get
00:40:14.100 Some rest
00:40:14.600 I promise
00:40:15.300 Not to
00:40:15.740 Bug you
00:40:16.040 Too much
00:40:16.520 But I
00:40:17.140 Think
00:40:17.380 Now you
00:40:17.900 Know where
00:40:18.200 I'm
00:40:18.360 Going
00:40:18.660 With this
00:40:19.140 Thing
00:40:19.460 So if
00:40:20.040 You have
00:40:20.220 Any thought
00:40:20.860 Or anybody
00:40:21.360 You think
00:40:21.900 I should
00:40:22.320 Speak to
00:40:22.920 I'd be
00:40:23.600 Most grateful
00:40:24.220 If you
00:40:24.540 Could let
00:40:24.820 Me know
00:40:25.180 We'll
00:40:26.040 We'll
00:40:26.340 Give it
00:40:26.920 Some thought
00:40:27.520 And really
00:40:28.860 Anytime
00:40:29.460 Just let
00:40:31.100 Me know
00:40:31.460 I will
00:40:32.320 Okay
00:40:32.820 Thank you
00:40:33.300 My friend
00:40:33.780 Appreciate it
00:40:35.340 All the best
00:40:44.600 A fiction
00:41:00.680 Romance
00:41:01.480 I love
00:41:02.220 This
00:41:02.400 Lost
00:41:02.600 Story
00:41:03.320 That
00:41:06.720 Never
00:41:07.120 Seems
00:41:07.720 To
00:41:08.280 Happen
00:41:09.080 In
00:41:09.380 My
00:41:09.780 Life
00:41:10.420 A fiction
00:41:13.480 Romance
00:41:14.340 All of
00:41:15.260 A glory
00:41:15.960 That
00:41:19.520 Never
00:41:19.900 Seems
00:41:20.480 To
00:41:21.020 Happen
00:41:21.800 In
00:41:22.100 My
00:41:22.480 Life
00:41:23.180 Dreams
00:41:26.300 Of
00:41:26.540 Love
00:41:26.920 And
00:41:27.420 Dreams
00:41:27.840 Of
00:41:28.120 Pain
00:41:28.580 And
00:41:29.120 Dreams
00:41:29.600 Again
00:41:30.340 Again
00:41:31.180 Again
00:41:31.900 Again
00:41:32.560 Which
00:41:33.100 Can
00:41:33.400 Be
00:41:33.760 Yours
00:41:34.140 Just
00:41:34.460 By
00:41:34.720 Taking
00:41:35.060 Hold
00:41:35.980 Dreams
00:41:39.160 That
00:41:39.560 I
00:41:39.940 Can
00:41:40.360 Realize
00:41:41.460 Are
00:41:41.940 Quite
00:41:42.380 Contained
00:41:43.220 Within
00:41:43.660 Your
00:41:44.140 Eyes
00:41:44.920 Say
00:41:45.720 Fiction
00:41:46.460 Romance
00:41:47.500 Is
00:41:47.700 Not
00:41:47.920 So
00:41:48.280 Old
00:41:48.900 A
00:41:54.840 Fiction
00:41:55.100 Romance
00:41:55.880 The love
00:41:56.620 Of the
00:41:56.980 Ages
00:41:57.720 That
00:42:01.020 Never
00:42:01.420 Seems
00:42:02.020 To
00:42:02.460 Matter
00:42:02.980 In
00:42:03.580 My
00:42:03.940 Life
00:42:04.600 A
00:42:07.360 Picture
00:42:07.600 Romance
00:42:08.440 On
00:42:08.880 Magazine
00:42:09.340 Pages
00:42:10.300 That
00:42:13.520 Never
00:42:13.860 Seems
00:42:14.420 To
00:42:14.840 Feature
00:42:15.420 In
00:42:16.000 My
00:42:16.360 Life
00:42:17.100 Dreaming
00:42:20.520 Scheming
00:42:21.340 Honor
00:42:21.840 Were
00:42:22.380 There
00:42:22.740 Quite
00:42:23.360 Some
00:42:23.820 Words
00:42:24.240 Some
00:42:24.620 Honor
00:42:25.080 Work
00:42:25.680 Though
00:42:26.020 Are
00:42:26.700 Not
00:42:27.020 Thinking
00:42:27.360 About
00:42:27.800 What
00:42:28.100 They
00:42:28.400 Have
00:42:28.860 Been
00:42:29.200 Told
00:42:29.840 Something
00:42:33.080 Strange
00:42:33.860 Is
00:42:34.200 Happening
00:42:34.780 To
00:42:35.040 The
00:42:35.580 Way
00:42:36.060 I
00:42:36.380 See
00:42:36.740 The
00:42:37.200 World
00:42:37.640 I
00:42:37.980 View
00:42:38.340 That
00:42:38.800 Fiction
00:42:39.560 Romance
00:42:40.600 Is
00:42:41.620 Not
00:42:41.960 Soled
00:42:43.280 As
00:42:48.260 A
00:42:48.420 Fiction
00:42:48.700 Romantic
00:42:49.480 I
00:42:50.000 Never
00:42:50.340 Expected
00:42:51.060 All
00:42:54.840 These
00:42:55.140 Things
00:42:55.480 To
00:42:55.960 Happen
00:42:56.760 In
00:42:57.060 Real
00:42:57.500 Life
00:42:58.160 And
00:43:00.700 No
00:43:00.880 Fiction
00:43:01.160 Romantic
00:43:02.120 Could
00:43:02.480 Ever
00:43:02.740 Be
00:43:03.000 Dicted
00:43:03.700 All
00:43:07.300 The
00:43:07.600 Things
00:43:08.040 That
00:43:08.560 Happened
00:43:09.340 In
00:43:09.660 My
00:43:10.020 Life
00:43:10.700 When
00:43:13.680 I
00:43:14.000 Don't
00:43:14.400 Know
00:43:14.800 What
00:43:15.320 To
00:43:15.640 Do
00:43:16.020 I
00:43:16.520 Just
00:43:17.100 Think
00:43:17.480 About
00:43:17.960 Me
00:43:18.560 And
00:43:18.940 You
00:43:19.260 If
00:43:20.320 I
00:43:20.640 Was
00:43:20.940 A
00:43:21.140 Little
00:43:21.380 Stronger
00:43:21.960 Than
00:43:22.200 I
00:43:22.480 Be
00:43:22.880 Bold
00:43:23.520 Something
00:43:26.760 Strange
00:43:27.500 Is
00:43:27.840 Handled
00:43:28.400 To
00:43:28.740 Yeah
00:43:29.140 I
00:43:29.440 Don't
00:43:29.860 Know
00:43:30.260 What
00:43:30.560 These
00:43:31.000 Shivers
00:43:31.480 Mean
00:43:31.980 To
00:43:32.240 You
00:43:32.580 This
00:43:33.140 Is
00:43:33.320 A
00:43:33.480 Fiction
00:43:33.840 And
00:43:34.140 A
00:43:34.340 Romance
00:43:35.060 Getting
00:43:35.440 Hold
00:43:36.360 Too
00:43:39.720 Up
00:43:41.440 Up
00:43:42.640 On
00:43:42.840 Your
00:43:42.980 R
00:43:43.260 mastered
00:43:43.760 To
00:43:44.340 With
00:43:49.540 grained
00:43:50.740 Fish and Romans
00:44:20.740 Fish and Romans
00:44:50.740 This is CFRA Live, Sunday political panel.
00:45:04.020 And welcome to it. Joining us for our political panel on this Sunday morning is Carl Belanger. He's the president at Traction Strategies. Good morning, Carl.
00:45:14.500 Morning, Andrew.
00:45:15.460 Warren Kinsella is a strategist and post-media columnist. Joins us on the phone this morning. Warren, thanks so much.
00:45:20.160 Morning, guys.
00:45:20.920 Tasha Carradine is a political columnist for the National Post and author, a writer for GZERO Media as well. Good morning, Tasha.
00:45:27.060 Hello.
00:45:28.040 So lots of there's lots on the docket this week. Maybe one we'll get to because we have seen this on the international front.
00:45:32.880 The prime minister has endorsed U.S. President Joe Biden's peace plan.
00:45:37.380 Well, I guess a plan for a ceasefire in the Middle East. We'll see how that kind of comes to fruition.
00:45:42.400 But the prime minister also kind of taking some heat for not taking a firm stance one way or the other when it comes to dealing with Israel and Hamas.
00:45:50.900 There's a piece in the Star this morning kind of looking at that as well.
00:45:54.960 I guess, Warren, I'll start with you because I know you've been covering the different parts and aspects of some of the demonstrations that we've seen.
00:46:00.500 But what do you make of the prime minister's kind of reaction so far politically to this situation?
00:46:06.280 It was a non-reaction to the extent that the embassy of Israel had to issue an official statement basically condemning our prime minister and our foreign affairs minister for not, you know, giving an answer.
00:46:20.440 Like the entire world, after Biden made his statement, stepped up to the microphone and said, you know, what they thought of it.
00:46:27.360 Most of them approved of it. And Canada didn't.
00:46:30.940 And I think this is symptomatic of what we've been seeing since October 7th.
00:46:34.680 And it's led this week, this week in Canada, firebombing of a synagogue in Vancouver, shooting up of a Jewish school in Montreal, the shooting up of a Jewish school in Toronto.
00:46:45.680 Like we've got a big problem. If you look at all the metrics, we probably have one of the worst anti-Semitism, anti-Semitic crime problems in the world.
00:46:55.220 And it's incumbent upon our top leader, which is Justin Trudeau, to be more clear.
00:47:00.840 But he hasn't been that way. And it's created this environment where the Jewish community, I can tell you, are feeling isolated and lonely and, you know, under attack.
00:47:11.480 And we need some leadership and we're just not getting it.
00:47:14.300 And I've mentioned, you know, luckily, locally, we haven't seen any major issues or incidents like this, but no doubt some very violent incidents happening and concerning incidents in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver this week.
00:47:26.860 Tasha, when it comes to the political aspect of this, just reading the headline of the Star this morning, Ottawa's waffling on Gaza makes commitment to human rights look shaky.
00:47:34.060 Is Justin Trudeau waffling here in your mind?
00:47:37.940 Yeah, Justin Trudeau has been waffling since the beginning of this.
00:47:41.300 And it's a purely electoral calculus. I hate to say it.
00:47:45.000 You know, the Muslim population of Canada is about 5 percent.
00:47:48.660 Many of them, not all, but many of them are sympathetic to what is happening in Gaza.
00:47:55.860 Some have maybe even connections to people in Gaza.
00:47:58.200 And then there's 1 percent of the population, I think approximately, is Jewish, who have connections also, in many cases, to family, people they know in Israel.
00:48:08.300 But the point is, it's 5 and it's 1.
00:48:10.260 And I hate to say it that way, but we saw this play out in by-elections provincially here in Ontario.
00:48:15.900 We've seen this issue now federally.
00:48:18.080 Justin Trudeau has not been equivocal because he wants to have it both ways.
00:48:22.640 He wants to maintain support in the Jewish community, which, frankly, has pretty much fled the Liberal Party at this point.
00:48:28.200 And the Muslim community, which is also fleeing, ironically, to the NDP.
00:48:32.000 So he's pleased nobody by refusing to defend what's right and defend and, like Warren said, speak out against incidents of domestic hatred and violence against the Jewish community that are happening here on a daily basis.
00:48:46.960 And that's the result of it, because people feel they have license.
00:48:49.780 I hate to say it.
00:48:50.620 They have license to protest, occupy university campuses.
00:48:53.820 I mean, it goes on and on and on and on.
00:48:55.200 And it starts at the top, and he's at the top, and he's not doing his job.
00:48:59.700 Hear, hear.
00:49:00.360 And, Carl, would you, I guess, tough for, in a political sense, I guess, what do you do as the prime minister?
00:49:06.980 But is he kind of risking alienating everybody in this situation when you're not making either side very happy at all?
00:49:13.420 Right, that's the political risk.
00:49:16.020 When you're trying to make everybody happy, or at least not to hurt anybody, you end up hurting everybody.
00:49:23.540 And that's the problem with the kind of positioning that just Trudeau has taken, especially the last few weeks.
00:49:31.820 He is trying to walk a fine line, but that line is so fine that he ends up stepping on both sides, and that's the position that's not, I don't think it's sustainable, to be honest.
00:49:45.100 And, you know, if Justin Trudeau was taking a principal position and sticking to it, it would be one thing.
00:49:53.820 But he's wavering, he's waffling, he's trying to be both things to both sides.
00:50:01.100 And it's not working, and I think that's problematic for him.
00:50:06.520 But, you know, at the same time, to be fair, there was some ruffle inside the Liberal caucus about this issue.
00:50:16.600 But it's happened a couple of, like I would say two months ago.
00:50:20.080 And since then, I think people have kept, you know, have stayed pretty much united in the party.
00:50:27.240 So maybe that's why he's doing it this way, to make sure he doesn't lose control of his caucus over this issue.
00:50:32.560 Tasha, you mentioned a by-election coming up.
00:50:36.680 I just wanted to touch on that.
00:50:37.720 I know I didn't have it on our list today, but there is a by-election coming up on June 24th.
00:50:41.640 Just given the nature of this situation that we are seeing right now, kind of playing into the polls, obviously,
00:50:47.380 do you think that's even more important for the, or an even more important measuring stick for the Liberals heading into the next election in Toronto-St. Paul?
00:50:56.140 Yeah, this by-election is happening in a riding where there is a significant Jewish community.
00:51:00.340 And the Conservatives have put forward an excellent candidate.
00:51:05.400 I mean, full disclosure, I know him personally.
00:51:06.840 I'm on a board of a charity with him.
00:51:09.960 And they are, you know, pushing full bore to try and get this riding.
00:51:16.960 And if they do, it is a bit of a litmus test.
00:51:19.040 This riding, I think, has been Liberal since Barbara McDougal vacated it back in the 1990s.
00:51:24.520 So it is an uphill climb.
00:51:27.760 But there are signs in the riding that people are very angry at the door.
00:51:31.560 They're very angry with the Liberal Party and not just the Jewish community.
00:51:34.820 They're angry on all sorts of issues.
00:51:37.380 So, yes, if this riding flips, that, I think, you know, if this riding flips, I think that's a sign to Justin Trudeau.
00:51:43.580 It's really time to pack it in.
00:51:45.220 I mean, I think it is anyway, but, you know, it really would be.
00:51:48.800 And we'll see what happens.
00:51:50.080 I mean, it's still, like you said, there's three weeks to go.
00:51:52.240 Yeah, and Warren, as Tasha mentioned, you know, a large contingent of a Jewish population within Toronto St. Paul's as well.
00:51:58.180 But it also has been traditionally Liberal.
00:51:59.680 Do you think possibly this issue could hurt them in this upcoming election?
00:52:04.300 Yeah, I think so.
00:52:05.500 Like, as Tasha says, there is a Jewish vote there.
00:52:08.980 I don't know if it's enough to make a difference in a riding like St. Paul's.
00:52:12.780 Like, St. Paul's is, like, if it's the end of the world for the Liberal Party of Canada,
00:52:17.420 and they have two seats left, Mount Royal will be one, and this will be the other one.
00:52:21.680 So, like, if they lose this one, like, it's all over.
00:52:26.980 Like, turn out the lights.
00:52:28.700 But I'd be surprised if they do.
00:52:31.160 It's probably going to be a much narrower gap than it's been in the past few elections.
00:52:34.620 Leslie Church, who I've known for years, is running there.
00:52:37.660 She's a very smart and capable person.
00:52:40.520 And, you know, your individual client, your candidate in a by-election does matter.
00:52:48.100 So she's a capable candidate.
00:52:51.020 But, you know, Justin Trudeau is personally so unpopular right now.
00:52:56.900 You know, I imagine she's hearing it at the doors that the guy's got to go.
00:53:02.140 And that's from longtime Liberals, too.
00:53:03.980 And the Conservative Party running Don Stewart, as Tasha mentioned, and Emerit Parha running for the NDP.
00:53:10.580 Carl, do you think this is going to be an issue that could come to the forefront in this by-election,
00:53:15.180 the whole situation surrounding the Gaza War?
00:53:17.400 For sure.
00:53:20.000 And the thing that happens in a by-election is that the dynamic is very different in a general election.
00:53:27.280 And certainly the participation, the voting turnout, is lower.
00:53:31.660 So people who are angry tend to show up more, and they are more motivated, they pay more attention.
00:53:38.480 And the people who are just fine with the government, who are kind of apathetic, will not show up,
00:53:44.260 because it doesn't matter, right?
00:53:45.620 It will not change anything in the composition of the House of Commons, really.
00:53:48.460 So, yes, it could have very well happened that the Conservatives could pull this off
00:53:53.000 because of the underlying anger that we're seeing about the Trudeau government in general
00:53:57.980 and on the issue of Gaza and Israel in particular.
00:54:02.660 Moving on to another story this week I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on.
00:54:05.860 And maybe, Carl, I'll start with you on this.
00:54:07.280 Greg Fergis surviving that vote to oust him from the House of Commons on Tuesday as Speaker, I should say.
00:54:12.960 Close to half of MPs expressing a loss of confidence in him.
00:54:15.860 So he does face a precarious path moving forward here, no matter what.
00:54:19.900 I guess, Carl, did he do the right thing by staying on, in a sense of trying to maintain his own,
00:54:24.940 I guess, political machinations here?
00:54:27.700 Or should he have stepped down, do you think?
00:54:29.640 Well, I think he should have stepped down a while ago.
00:54:32.440 But to be fair to him, the latest instance was not his fault.
00:54:36.800 It was a junior communication officer in the Liberal Party of Canada's headquarter
00:54:41.340 who just, you know, slapped a partisan template on their local writing association barbecue
00:54:47.080 and they threw in the anti-poly of messages in it without even thinking that this could cause problems for the speaker.
00:54:57.220 But I think the bigger point is that perhaps it's time for us in Canada to look at what's happening in the U.K.
00:55:04.660 when it comes to the speaker, where the minute they are elected speaker, they become independent.
00:55:11.300 They are no longer affiliated with the political party.
00:55:13.940 And in fact, in the election right now, the speaker is running under the banner, speaker.
00:55:18.300 So you don't have any of these accusations.
00:55:21.000 You don't have to play the political game, even at a local writing level,
00:55:24.860 because you are free from that political affiliation.
00:55:28.000 And, you know, we've all seen the problems of Greg Ferguson, the lack of judgment over time.
00:55:35.660 But perhaps this could be all avoided if we had that speakership a little more independent than we have here.
00:55:42.900 Yeah, definitely a fantastic thing or idea in some senses.
00:55:47.240 Warren, I guess from Greg Ferguson's perspective, you can argue all day long that perhaps you've done nothing wrong here.
00:55:54.020 But do you think this has become a larger distraction than it needed to be?
00:55:56.740 Yeah, it has.
00:55:58.320 I mean, in fairness to him, in fairness to the office, you know, when you're a speaker,
00:56:02.900 you're still a member of a political party.
00:56:04.700 You've got to run as a member of a political party if you are seeking re-election.
00:56:09.020 And you've got to fundraise.
00:56:10.480 And so you're, you know, you're in a bit of a bind.
00:56:13.440 But previous speakers have been able to do that without gutting the office.
00:56:18.720 And the problem with Greg, and, you know, he's a very nice guy and people like him.
00:56:23.420 I think that's part of the reason why he got elected speaker.
00:56:25.700 He's been a disaster.
00:56:27.980 You know, the one thing you have to do as speaker, the one requirement for the job,
00:56:34.040 is maintaining the confidence of all sides of the House of Commons.
00:56:37.800 They have to have the belief that you're going to be impartial.
00:56:41.700 Well, that's long gone.
00:56:43.000 He's now on, I think this is episode number four, where his impartiality has been called into question.
00:56:48.840 So it's done, like it's over.
00:56:51.640 And, you know, will they get rid of him?
00:56:54.020 Probably not.
00:56:55.020 He's been protected in votes because the Conservatives attempt to get rid of him a few times.
00:57:01.060 But, you know, I think they know they're not going to succeed.
00:57:03.780 They're just trying to shine a light on the fact that this guy's not being fair.
00:57:07.160 And they're right.
00:57:08.280 He's not being fair.
00:57:10.220 Yeah, conceding defeat, not a popular political stance nowadays.
00:57:13.320 So I doubt that we will see him step down.
00:57:15.680 But, Tasha, do you think this has become more of a distraction than anything else for Greg Ferguson and the rest of the House of Commons?
00:57:22.500 Well, you know, I've known Greg since high school.
00:57:25.780 He's a really nice guy.
00:57:28.760 But he has messed up.
00:57:31.220 And, yeah, even if it was a junior staffer, I think it's more symptomatic what was said afterwards.
00:57:35.980 You know, Mark Holland, okay, thinks that, you know, road trips are going to fry the planet.
00:57:40.080 Oh, my God, don't get me started.
00:57:42.280 Mark Holland, health minister, said, Speaker Fergus has made some errors as a human being.
00:57:47.340 He's apologized for them.
00:57:48.740 But I think he's a person who profoundly respects the chamber and has my confidence.
00:57:52.840 This is the problem with this government.
00:57:54.700 Everyone screws up.
00:57:55.800 There's no consequences.
00:57:57.060 There's no consequences.
00:57:58.240 And I think that is part of the fatigue people have with it, is that whatever happens, it's, oh, I'm so sorry, and I'm still here.
00:58:06.200 That's not how the real world works.
00:58:08.620 And that's what this government doesn't get, is that they're out of touch with how people actually live their lives.
00:58:14.120 You make mistakes on the job.
00:58:15.360 You make three, four mistakes.
00:58:16.580 You're fired, right?
00:58:18.320 So they have to set an example.
00:58:20.540 I hate to say it.
00:58:21.580 He's a nice guy, really nice guy.
00:58:23.280 But this is, the off to the speaker has become a laughing stock in terms of impartiality at this point.
00:58:29.440 And you mentioned out of touch.
00:58:30.500 That makes me kind of think of another story I wanted to bring up this week in a sense of, is it kind of out of touch here to see?
00:58:35.180 The liberals had this legislation kind of plan that would delay the election, not by that much, really.
00:58:40.420 But the idea is by delaying it a couple of days, you're giving MPs full pensions in that case.
00:58:47.200 So I don't know.
00:58:47.800 It does seem out of touch the idea that you get a full gold plate in pension after working at a job for five years.
00:58:53.200 Carl, do you think this is a potential issue that liberals could get hit hard on?
00:58:56.980 The NDP is already trying.
00:58:58.000 Yeah, I think it's a potential big issue because it's compounding the other problems that they have.
00:59:05.960 And frankly, the excuse that this was for a religious reason to, you know, to accommodate Diwali is laughable because you could have moved it up.
00:59:17.480 It could have been earlier.
00:59:18.720 It didn't need to be later.
00:59:20.260 It could have been earlier.
00:59:21.640 So they got caught.
00:59:23.240 What surprised me is how long it took the NDP to step out on this issue.
00:59:29.400 You know, they finally did it.
00:59:31.960 I think it's a good move because the one thing the NDP needs to do is establish some contrast, some daylight between them and the Liberal Party.
00:59:40.220 And they found an issue here where the government moved in with a bill, a bill that the NDP was working on with them, but they didn't have knowledge of this clause.
00:59:48.680 But it's been months now since that bill's been tabled.
00:59:51.840 And finally, right before the first debate in the House, the NDP said, we're moving an amendment on this because we don't think it's fair to make that move, to allow these 80 MPs to get their pension by delaying the election.
01:00:05.860 So I think the Liberals will have no choice but to remove this clause from the bill if they want it to go through.
01:00:13.100 Warren, does this just kind of add to that messaging that, you know, well, the Conservatives picked up on that, that Justin Trudeau is out of touch.
01:00:18.940 Does this, you know, just add to that messaging?
01:00:22.000 Oh, for sure.
01:00:22.900 And like, I got to say, I was shocked by the response of the NDP.
01:00:28.500 Like, you know, I know politicians in Ottawa like to say, you know, they're there for the greater good and so on.
01:00:35.720 I remember Preston Manning and his Reform Caucus.
01:00:40.080 Remember, they were on Parliament Hill that time, and they had pigs, people wearing pig masks, sticking their head in a snout and saying they'd never take the parliamentary pension.
01:00:50.620 Well, guess what?
01:00:51.720 Every single one of them, including Manning, did, who was living in Stornoway at the time.
01:00:56.620 So, like, you know, they say one thing and do another.
01:01:00.780 Like, the NDP following through on this, I was like, wow, like, this really hits a lot of members, 80 of them, in the pocketbook.
01:01:09.800 It is, you know, for those members who have been sitting there in the back benches twiddling their thumbs for six years, this is a big, big deal.
01:01:17.780 I thought Trudeau was doing it to avoid a caucus revolt.
01:01:21.840 I'm wondering now if some of them start to speak up on his leadership now that they're not going to be getting the pension.
01:01:28.040 That's a good point as well.
01:01:30.180 I guess, Tasha, you know, particularly during the affordability crisis that we've been having right now, is this just not a good look for the Liberals?
01:01:38.080 No, it's a terrible look.
01:01:41.500 Again, it goes to the sense that there's just no consequence.
01:01:44.540 There's no one, you know, running the show here.
01:01:47.780 It's interesting to see how it breaks down in terms of those 80 people, because six of them are NDP MPs.
01:01:53.300 So the NDP has, you know, a fairly substantial portion of their caucus, 22 Liberals, 19 Bloc, and 32 Conservatives.
01:02:00.840 Now, the Conservatives probably aren't that worried because of the polls, but for everyone else, maybe less the Bloc, you know, it's an issue.
01:02:09.700 And I think that this, you know, the government was tone deaf, tone deaf to sort of bury it.
01:02:14.080 It's very sneaky, too.
01:02:14.960 They buried it in a bill about voting, right?
01:02:17.780 Oh, of course we want people to vote more, but this is ridiculous.
01:02:21.000 Moving the election date and sort of just sliding it in there, it looks even worse than if you were honest about it and said, oh, we want to move the election date.
01:02:29.440 Yeah, and Diwali is happening, but you could back it the other way, as was pointed out.
01:02:33.760 You don't have to move it farther.
01:02:35.360 Lots of fodder that the government's going to have to fend off when the House returns here.
01:02:42.020 Just a couple of minutes left, I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on South of the Border, kind of a bonus political question this morning.
01:02:47.220 But we're watching the Trump hush money verdict come through this week.
01:02:50.100 Obviously, he was found guilty on 34 felony counts.
01:02:52.500 And I don't know, just as political watchers yourselves, I just kind of watch you in awe of what's going to happen next.
01:02:58.160 Tash, I'll just start with you.
01:02:59.160 So what do you make of this?
01:03:00.720 I think Donald Trump is right in a sense of, you know, the voters are going to be the ultimate poll in November.
01:03:04.760 But what do you just make of this whole unprecedented situation?
01:03:08.360 Well, I think it's just sad that, you know, the United States is the choices they have on offer for their president include a convicted felon.
01:03:17.300 You know, it's not, I sort of blink at this and wonder what things have come to, because people will still vote for him.
01:03:25.500 Some won't, perhaps, but I think most of his voters look at this as like he painted it, which is, it's a setup, it's the courts are being used against me, it's lawfare, essentially.
01:03:37.420 It's the worst thing that can happen to democracy, because you lose faith in the institutions.
01:03:41.400 Yeah, he had all the greatest hits out this week.
01:03:43.640 Carl, just is watching from afar, just so what were your kind of takeaways from watching this go down this week?
01:03:47.840 Well, what's terrible about what's happening is that it doesn't disqualify him, and I'm not saying legally, I'm saying in the political opinion.
01:03:57.900 The fact that the Americans have lost faith in their institution to the point where a man can be convicted 34 times, not once, not twice, 34 times,
01:04:10.200 and still be, you know, riding high on the poles and being, a few days from being officially nominated as this party's candidate for the presidency,
01:04:20.480 that's the problem, that's the dangerous slope we're in, where if the Americans have lost faith in their institution,
01:04:28.040 the institutions that are there to safeguard a democracy and their freedom, and in fact think that they are somehow corrupt,
01:04:33.900 and there's a plot, and it's the Democrats, and this and that, it can lead to a very dangerous situation down the road.
01:04:41.040 And I'm really worried about what's happening, because frankly, anywhere else in the world, in a democracy that's working,
01:04:48.420 a guy that's convicted, like Donald Trump was convicted, would be eliminated, he would have been eliminated just for being charged.
01:04:54.820 And the fact that he's able to just continue, get money, have his party on board, to me, that's scary.
01:05:01.900 Well, it made me kind of think back to the political reaction we did see,
01:05:04.560 a swift political reaction against the former President Bill Clinton for his, what would be, you know, an affair,
01:05:09.620 an affair that was consensual, and obviously paid a huge political price for that,
01:05:15.380 but just to kind of see the difference between the two kind of reactions right now.
01:05:19.100 Warren, just a last word to you, just your kind of takeaways from watching this kind of unfold south of the border this week.
01:05:24.220 I thought it was awesome, I was so, so happy.
01:05:28.340 I worked for Biden, I worked for Hillary, I was so happy.
01:05:33.360 But what guys like me think, and, you know, people who support the Democrats and work for them,
01:05:39.400 and mega-Republicans think, it doesn't matter.
01:05:43.220 It doesn't matter.
01:05:44.160 Everybody keeps trying to change the mind of mega-Republicans with appeals for decency.
01:05:49.300 It's a waste of breath.
01:05:50.980 All that matters in American politics is the middle, those independents,
01:05:56.040 that about a third of Americans who are either registered or self-declared independents.
01:06:00.760 They're the ones who decide who's going to be president of the United States.
01:06:04.460 And since the verdict was rendered, independents are drifting away from Donald Trump's option.
01:06:10.760 So anybody who says that it doesn't matter doesn't know what they're talking about,
01:06:14.840 because right now it does.
01:06:16.560 In a tight, tight race like this one is in some swing states,
01:06:20.700 independents are leaving the Donald Trump choice,
01:06:23.460 and they're moving towards Joe Biden.
01:06:25.380 That's good news for democracy.
01:06:27.040 And sentencing coming up in July, just a week before the Republican National Convention.
01:06:30.660 So we'll see how that kind of squares out politically as well.
01:06:33.460 But we'll leave it there for this week.
01:06:35.200 Carl, Warren, Tasha, thank you so much for your time.
01:06:37.100 I hope you have a great Sunday.
01:06:38.420 Thanks, guys.
01:06:39.000 Thank you, too. Bye.
01:06:40.060 Tasha Carradine is a political columnist for the National Post,
01:06:42.260 an author, a writer for GZERO Media.
01:06:44.220 Warren can tell as a strategist and post-media columnist.
01:06:46.440 You can read the latest from him in the Toronto Sun.
01:06:49.160 And Carl Belongi is the president at Traction Strategies.
01:06:51.480 What do you want of me?
01:07:06.920 What do you long from me?
01:07:10.840 A slim pixie, thin and forlorn
01:07:14.520 A count white and drawn
01:07:18.640 What do you make of me?
01:07:24.340 What can you take from me?
01:07:28.260 Pallet landscapes of my frown
01:07:31.660 That leave a goo up and down
01:07:35.680 For you I came to forsake
01:07:48.240 Lay white, despise and hate
01:07:52.460 I sing you my lamented songs
01:07:57.020 For you and your stimulations
01:08:00.680 Take what you can of me
01:08:05.060 Rip what you can of me
01:08:09.160 And this I'll say to you
01:08:13.540 And hope that it gets through
01:08:17.800 You worthless bits
01:08:20.500 You fickle shits
01:08:22.560 You will spit on me
01:08:24.560 You will make me spit
01:08:26.820 And when the Jew
01:08:28.760 Desire arrives
01:08:30.960 And like the Jesus Jews
01:08:32.880 You will pit of mines
01:08:35.160 I'll still be here
01:08:37.180 As strong as you
01:08:39.040 And I'll walk away
01:08:41.260 In spite of you
01:08:43.720 And I'll walk away
01:08:51.740 Walk away
01:08:55.820 Walk away
01:08:59.920 Walk away
01:09:04.180 Walk away
01:09:08.300 Walk away
01:09:13.240 Walk away
01:09:17.500 Walk away
01:09:21.020 Walk away
01:09:22.940 Walk away
01:09:26.600 Walk away
01:09:27.340 Walk away
01:09:27.640 Walk
01:09:29.700 Walk away
01:09:30.400 Walk away
01:09:30.940 Walk away
01:09:32.440 Walk away
01:09:32.860 Walk
01:09:33.020 Walk away
01:09:34.280 Walk away
01:09:34.660 Walk away
01:09:34.840 Walk away
01:09:35.840 Walk away
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01:09:50.480 Thank you.