kinsellacast

00:00:00.000 it's the kinsella cast starring warren kinsella

00:00:08.480 hey it's warren welcome to the kinsella cast it's june i was just i was writing last night

00:00:24.820 you know the cliche you hear your entire life is time goes fast i think ferris bueller said that

00:00:32.320 too boy is it ever and when you're young you want it to go faster so you can get older and then when

00:00:38.720 you get older you want it to slow down so you can get younger anyway i'm probably in the latter

00:00:44.060 category sometimes i don't act like it um great show this week i've got um i think brian lily is

00:00:51.380 camping um but i've got an academic a professor a thinker a fighter an amazing guy yossi klein

00:01:02.040 hi levy um he and i talked for a long time this week so i'm gonna have our chat in two segments on

00:01:10.280 this week's podcast talking about holocaust inversion and some of the terrible things that have been

00:01:16.140 happening including in canada this week a synagogue firebombed in vancouver another school shot up

00:01:23.460 in montreal and a school shot up in toronto and in every case targeting jews and anybody who says we

00:01:33.160 don't have a problem is dreaming in technicolor or they're a liar or both we've got a big big problem

00:01:41.000 so i'll be talking about that on this week's episode and um i'm gonna have tasha keridan and

00:01:48.020 carl blanger hopefully and and i can't believe i'm about to say this go oilers like i'm from calgary

00:01:55.620 saying anything nice about edmonton or deadmonton as we called it like it's just it's really hard to

00:02:02.300 do it's really it's hard and anyway go oilers hopefully they do it but time we had some

00:02:10.620 canadians in the final like a team of canadians not individual canadians um this week i was driving

00:02:18.400 i do that a lot and apple music has an algorithm that picks and prods at my brain to find out what

00:02:26.940 i'd like and it found put together this list this playlist of post-punk stuff and i was listening

00:02:33.800 to it despite myself and man i was like there's good picks on here so i've taken my picks for this

00:02:40.240 week's show entirely from their list public image limited flowers of romance um very cool drum beat

00:02:49.260 and approach to the song on this one encourage you to listen to it song from under the floorboards

00:02:56.160 by hara devoto and magazine after he left the buzzcocks and then the buzzcocks playing fiction

00:03:02.300 romance a song that the hot nasties used to play we played it so well in fact people thought it was

00:03:06.700 ours but it was not and then i'm probably going to play crowds by bahos it was also on this list

00:03:12.280 so um from the river to the sea or sometimes from the river to the sea palestine will be free most of

00:03:19.800 the time it's the shorter version of that we see and lately we're seeing it on signs and

00:03:26.060 banners at canadian and american and european university campuses we hear it chanted by the

00:03:31.300 few students and the many non-students at those illegal occupations because that's what they are

00:03:37.500 they're illegal the ones that some in the media benignly refer to as encampments

00:03:42.600 from the river to the sea like the first time you hear it it sounds pretty innocuous it doesn't

00:03:49.060 seem to be explicitly advocating violence in fact there's nothing identified in it apart from palestine

00:03:57.200 it lacks the vehemence and the violence of genocide it's a mistake however to regard from the river to

00:04:04.960 the sea as anything other than the flip side of the genocide coin genocide is the crime from the river

00:04:12.860 to the sea is the remedy they are connected and have been used alternatively or together a huge number

00:04:20.280 of times since since october 7th on the search engine bing alone those words now produce more than 136

00:04:30.800 million results slogans been around for decades going back to the 40s but was seized upon by the terrorist

00:04:38.720 palestine liberation organization in the 60s and 70s and later formally adopted by hamas killers

00:04:46.540 in their 2017 revised charter article 20 of hamas's governing constitution states quote hamas rejects

00:04:55.620 any alternative to the full and complete liberation of palestine from from the river to the sea end quote 0.91

00:05:02.500 now for some idiotic pro-palestine protesters who don't seem to understand the full connotations of 0.95

00:05:10.420 the slogan and for hamas and its ilk who do understand the river referred to is the jordan to 0.99

00:05:18.280 israel's east and the sea is the mediterranean to the west so geographically logically that's all of

00:05:25.400 israel logically it means wiping out the jewish state still some say well it's just words what's

00:05:34.380 the problem well there's a problem talor cohen montomeor who's become a friend of mine she's a

00:05:40.440 brilliant lawyer who heads the intranet hate watchdog called cyberwell it's based in israel but she's on

00:05:47.520 this side of the ocean quite often and she finds online hate she and her team and overwhelmingly these

00:05:55.720 days it's hate against jews and then she pushes the social media platforms their owners and their 0.90

00:06:01.580 managers to remove it or at least make it show up less often the big platforms like meta which is

00:06:08.920 facebook and instagram mainly and together those two they have more than five billion users worldwide

00:06:16.260 they have in the past removed content that promotes hate and violence the q anon conspiracy theory

00:06:23.380 slogan for example is where go one we go all meta started terminating accounts that promoted that

00:06:30.400 phrase a few years ago because it was what the experts call militarized content montomeor wants to

00:06:38.460 see meta and the other social media mavens do likewise with from the river to the sea so last week she

00:06:45.600 appeared before meta's oversight board which makes those decisions and her report makes for compelling

00:06:51.980 reading she pointed out in it that um basically you're finding that phrase everywhere to harass target 0.98

00:07:00.960 or commit violence against jews synagogues in philadelphia barcelona been vandalized with it like 0.60

00:07:08.660 the black september terror group that slaughtered 11 israeli athletes in 1972 at the olympics

00:07:13.720 they used it there at that site as a rallying cry it's been used in all these illegal college

00:07:21.300 solidarity encampments when physically restricting or harassing or threatening or spitting on or

00:07:27.640 physically attacking jewish students and members of the press members of the public and she said to me

00:07:34.220 it means something very clear to jews it is a veiled term to advocate committing genocide against jews living

00:07:40.760 in israel and to destroy the israeli state obviously and it isn't what the pro-hamas anti-israel

00:07:48.380 cabal claim the words mean that matters it's how the words are heard by the intended victim which is jews

00:07:55.880 anyway she acknowledges the phrase can mean different things different people and she agrees freedom of

00:08:01.720 speech needs to be protected always but when that slogan is being used with acts of violence and hate

00:08:07.280 against jews that's when its true meaning becomes clear you can't ignore the real world damage that 0.96

00:08:13.480 slogan is causing it's being used to incite and mobilize violent acts she told me hateful words 0.89

00:08:20.900 always precede hateful deeds hate against jews or christians or muslims or sikhs or hindus is always

00:08:27.900 expressed first in words right now all over canada those deceptive words from the river to the sea

00:08:36.660 are being heard and seen everywhere and jews know what those innocuous sounding words truly mean

00:08:43.820 the end of israel and later them 1.00

00:08:48.180 so

00:08:59.800 so

00:09:00.400 Thank you.

00:09:30.400 Thank you.

00:10:00.400 Thank you.

00:10:30.400 Thank you.

00:11:00.400 Thank you.

00:11:30.400 What is Holocaust Inversion? 0.77

00:11:36.040 Thank you.

00:11:38.040 So Holocaust Inversion is turning the Holocaust, the memory of the Holocaust, against the Jewish people, using the Holocaust as one more stick with which to beat the Jews.

00:11:56.160 And the way that plays out in the Middle East conflict is by invoking Holocaust imagery to criminalize Israel.

00:12:13.280 Israel becomes Nazi Germany. 0.80

00:12:15.760 The Palestinians become the victims of the Nazis. 0.89

00:12:21.180 Gaza is the Gaza ghetto echoing the Warsaw ghetto. 0.90

00:12:27.080 And, of course, this war has introduced the word genocide into the equation so that it is Israel, which is the successor state to Nazi Germany and the heir to its genocidal program. 0.66

00:12:50.520 So on that word genocide, because certainly that's where I've been focused, what is their objective in making an allegation that to so many fair-minded people is absurd?

00:13:08.520 Like it's Saturnalian.

00:13:10.520 Why are they doing that?

00:13:12.520 Well, first of all, because it's working.

00:13:15.520 And by accusing Israel of genocide, you remove any legitimacy to the Jewish state.

00:13:29.720 But there's been a progression of accusations against Israel, beginning with colonialism, moving to ethnic cleansing, accelerating to apartheid, and culminating in genocide.

00:13:46.720 There's nowhere to go after genocide.

00:13:49.040 This is the ultimate crime.

00:13:51.920 And if Israel is a genocidal state, like Nazi Germany, then it is incapable of waging a legitimate war of self-defense because a genocidal state has no right to self-defense. 0.77

00:14:09.660 Nazi Germany in World War II was not defending itself. 0.76

00:14:13.960 It was an aggressor and a murderous state that needed to be defeated and destroyed.

00:14:23.120 And so the goal of the anti-Zionists is not to end the occupation of the West Bank and create a two-state solution.

00:14:32.340 The goal is to delegitimize the existence of Israel as a necessary prelude to justifying its destruction. 0.94

00:14:47.400 Who is making most use of this, you know, false allegation?

00:14:56.960 So I guess what you're saying is the genocide allegation is an inversion of the Holocaust.

00:15:05.500 But who is making the most use of it?

00:15:08.540 And to whom is it most directed these days?

00:15:11.480 My personal theory is Gen Z and millennials.

00:15:14.580 It's working like gangbusters.

00:15:16.600 You've been doing a university tour.

00:15:18.820 It seems to be a lot of pickup there.

00:15:21.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:22.340 The genocidal accusation is aimed at young people in the West who were raised, who were educated to see the Holocaust rightfully as the ultimate crime.

00:15:39.620 And so if you can pin the Holocaust on its victims, then the Jews no longer have a moral claim on the West.

00:15:58.680 And Iran's supreme leader, Khamenei, said this very explicitly.

00:16:05.280 Iran has been leading the Holocaust denial campaign, denying any historical legitimacy to the Holocaust.

00:16:17.220 And he said that if you can deny Israel the protection of the Holocaust, then it will be defenseless.

00:16:27.720 And Iran's Holocaust denial did not resonate in the West.

00:16:37.760 It didn't work.

00:16:40.140 This is a much more effective strategy.

00:16:43.500 Don't deny the Holocaust. 0.99

00:16:45.100 Don't deny the facts of the Holocaust. 0.96

00:16:47.340 There were gas chambers.

00:16:49.060 Six million Jews were killed.

00:16:50.560 But the outrage now is to accuse the children and grandchildren of the Holocaust survivors of doing exactly what was done to their families.

00:17:04.080 And that's a much more effective way of delegitimizing Israel, of stripping the Jews of their own history, not by clumsy attempts to deny the historicity of the Holocaust, but simply by shifting the burden of genocide to the Jews. 0.96

00:17:30.000 Why is it, you know, we've both seen the data, and regrettably, the data in Canada is just as shitty.

00:17:39.220 You know, I've seen stuff that some of my colleagues have done before, just actually on the heels of the 7th, indicating, you know, 41% of Gen Z Canadians believe the Holocaust was a hoax and that Hamas was entitled to do what it did. 0.83

00:17:55.380 Harvard's done the same thing.

00:17:56.820 Why is it, why do you think this outrageous lie is getting so much pickup with kids, with young people?

00:18:06.040 Well, first of all, there's a, I think, well, I think it's a convergence of the thinness and lack of historical memory of social media.

00:18:26.820 Along with a culture, a political culture that divides the world according to perceived victims and victimizers.

00:18:43.980 Intersectionality has created this maddeningly simplistic division of humanity into noble victims and evil victimizers.

00:19:09.760 And history is rarely so neat.

00:19:14.760 And this conflict, the Arab-Israeli conflict, is messier and more complicated than most.

00:19:26.760 And so applying, applying the, the, the, the, the, the, the, ahistorical approach of social media combined with the, the, the, the ideological, um, um, distortions of intersectionality.

00:19:55.760 To, to Israel results in turning the Jews from a people that heroically overcame, uh, the worst oppression that any people ever experienced.

00:20:13.760 Into their enemies, into their enemies, into their worst enemies, uh, and doing so while the Jews are protecting themselves from a truly genocidal enemy. 0.91

00:20:28.760 So the inversion is happening on multiple layers.

00:20:33.760 It's turning Israel into, into Nazi Germany. 0.76

00:20:37.760 It's turning the genocidal Hamas, uh, into victims. 0.98

00:20:42.760 And what we're seeing is one of the most extraordinary distortions, uh, in, in, of, of reality, of political reality in the world today.

00:20:57.760 Mm-hmm.

00:21:00.000 One of my, um, um, uh, my discussions with polling people, I say, you know, why aren't these young people who are attending elite colleges and universities across North America and Western Europe, why are they so susceptible?

00:21:13.980 They said, well, you know, during the, they, they feel, and I think they're right, the pandemic played a role.

00:21:19.600 So, you know, these kids lost their prom dances and they lost their commencement exercises.

00:21:25.080 So they actually became the most online demographic in human history and, and Iran and Qatar and the bad guys were all there and, and working this well before the seventh. 0.90

00:21:36.940 What do you think about that one?

00:21:38.460 Oh, absolutely.

00:21:39.420 Absolutely.

00:21:40.080 And, and look, the truth is that, that in academia, the ground has been prepared for decades.

00:21:48.780 Yeah.

00:21:49.600 Going back to the 1970s and 80s, when Middle Eastern studies were almost completely politicized and, and the, and the anti-Zionist sentiment that emerged, um, from, from the, from those departments, gradually spread to other parts of the humanities.

00:22:14.660 Mm-hmm.

00:22:14.940 And, and, and, and, and today, anti-Zionism is normative on, on, on liberal campuses.

00:22:23.140 Mm-hmm.

00:22:24.220 And, um, every, every, every part of, of, of Zionist and Israeli history has been placed under a microscope.

00:22:37.420 So that, so that, so that, so that all of Israel's transgressions, real, real or imagined, have been magnified, while the transgressions of the other side have either been, um, minimized or outright dismissed. 0.87

00:22:58.420 Mm-hmm.

00:22:59.340 Mm-hmm.

00:22:59.900 I'll give you an example. 0.66

00:23:01.020 I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin

00:23:22.900 My irritability keeps me alive and kicking

00:23:31.340 I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit

00:23:39.780 I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it

00:23:48.460 This is the sun from under the walls

00:23:54.440 This is the sun from where the wall is cracked

00:23:58.380 My force of habit, I am an insect

00:24:02.980 I have to confess, I'm proud as hell, I've cracked

00:24:18.460 I know the highest and the best

00:24:26.440 I accord them all due respect

00:24:34.440 But the brightest jewel inside of me 1.00

00:24:38.420 Glows with pleasure at my own stupidity 1.00

00:24:46.440 This is the sun from under the walls 1.00

00:24:52.420 This is the sun from where the wall is cracked

00:24:57.060 My force of habit, I am an insect

00:25:01.520 I have to confess, I'm proud as hell, I've cracked

00:25:05.420 You still make phantoms

00:25:35.040 You still make phantoms, I'm proud as hell, I am

00:25:42.060 Images of all that could be designed

00:25:47.960 Then I got tired of counting all these blessings

00:25:57.640 And then I just got tired

00:26:02.180 This is a song from under the floor

00:26:08.480 This is a song from where the wall is cracked 0.78

00:26:12.460 My force of habit, I am an insane

00:26:16.920 I have to confess some brothers held that back

00:26:20.840 This is a song from under the floor

00:26:25.080 This is a song from where the wall is cracked 0.78

00:26:29.280 My force of habit, I am an insane

00:26:33.600 I have to confess some brothers held that back

00:26:37.680 Habit

00:26:55.080 In 1941

00:27:00.780 A minuscule Jewish underground 0.81

00:27:10.120 Anti-British underground called the Stern Group

00:27:15.600 Big Ends Group

00:27:17.540 Which had about 40 members

00:27:20.820 Tried to initiate contact with Nazi Germany

00:27:26.360 To create what it imagined would be a joint Zionist Nazi alliance against the British

00:27:38.360 Who were occupying the land at the time

00:27:42.020 The Nazis spurned the overture

00:27:46.700 The overwhelming majority of the Zionist movement 0.61

00:27:51.400 Dismissed the Stern Group as madmen

00:27:55.700 And sided with the British in World War II

00:28:00.720 This story is often used in anti-Zionist circles

00:28:09.980 As, quote, proof

00:28:11.920 That the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis 0.93

00:28:16.820 Meanwhile, the real story of collaboration

00:28:22.740 Which was the leader of the Palestinian national movement

00:28:28.560 Haj Amin al-Husseini 0.52

00:28:30.760 Who sat in Berlin

00:28:33.700 As Hitler's guest during World War II 0.92

00:28:36.800 Is completely overlooked

00:28:39.400 In anti-Zionist academic circles

00:28:44.040 He was the most important Palestinian leader

00:28:48.180 In the pre-state period

00:28:52.080 And he was leading efforts to recruit Muslims

00:28:57.100 For the SS 0.67

00:28:59.420 And spreading Nazi propaganda throughout the Arab world

00:29:05.120 And so this is a classic example

00:29:09.760 Of you take an absurdly fringe phenomenon

00:29:14.100 On the Jewish side 0.89

00:29:16.520 Turn that into a major story

00:29:20.820 And ignore the real story of pro-Nazi collaboration

00:29:24.840 That was happening on the Palestinian side 0.83

00:29:27.440 And it testifies to the susceptibility of people

00:29:31.520 To conspiracy theory stuff these days as well

00:29:34.360 Absolutely

00:29:35.440 Or another example

00:29:38.000 Theodor Herzl wrote a multi-volume

00:29:44.880 Theodor Herzl, the founder of political Zionism

00:29:47.620 Wrote a multi-volume diary

00:29:50.840 When he would write about his vision

00:29:56.420 Of future Jewish-Arab relations

00:29:59.380 In a Jewish state 0.99

00:30:00.660 It was always

00:30:02.920 It was almost always utopian

00:30:07.100 The peace and equality

00:30:11.080 And prosperity for all

00:30:13.600 But there's one line

00:30:16.320 In Herzl's diary

00:30:18.300 That suggests

00:30:20.520 The possible removal

00:30:23.140 Of

00:30:23.940 It doesn't say who

00:30:29.840 But of

00:30:30.560 The population

00:30:32.620 To a neighboring country

00:30:34.100 That line

00:30:35.580 That line

00:30:35.600 Has become

00:30:36.320 Emblematic

00:30:37.400 Of Herzl's 0.99

00:30:38.960 Attitude

00:30:39.920 Toward

00:30:40.680 Toward the Arabs 1.00

00:30:41.920 Ignoring

00:30:43.640 The overwhelming literature

00:30:46.280 Excuse me

00:30:48.600 Not at all

00:30:49.720 Produced by Herzl

00:30:51.320 That

00:30:52.380 That points in the opposite direction

00:30:55.060 Yeah

00:30:55.940 My voice is going

00:30:57.960 Because I

00:30:58.560 I just

00:30:59.980 No, no

00:31:00.380 We can keep talking

00:31:01.540 I just apologize

00:31:02.440 Well, I just have one more for you

00:31:04.160 I promise not to impose

00:31:06.040 And do you on your side

00:31:07.100 I just

00:31:07.600 I just got home a couple days ago

00:31:09.620 From a three-month lecture tour

00:31:11.740 So

00:31:12.100 I'm a little bit

00:31:13.440 I saw

00:31:14.440 Where is home?

00:31:15.900 Are you in

00:31:16.420 The United States?

00:31:18.180 In Jerusalem

00:31:18.780 In Jerusalem

00:31:19.920 Okay, well, I just got back

00:31:21.400 I was in Israel a week ago

00:31:23.140 Oh, I'm sorry I missed you

00:31:24.960 Yeah, I went

00:31:26.280 It was

00:31:26.900 It was

00:31:27.640 It was a media mission

00:31:29.480 We went to all the sad places

00:31:31.560 And boy

00:31:32.300 It was brutal

00:31:33.440 We went to the kibbutzim

00:31:35.200 And Sederat

00:31:35.960 And

00:31:36.340 It was awful

00:31:37.660 Like it was just

00:31:38.580 I've been writing

00:31:40.240 I've written a number of books

00:31:42.020 About racism

00:31:42.760 And antisemitism

00:31:43.620 Over the years

00:31:44.380 But seeing the crime scenes

00:31:46.460 Because that's what they truly were

00:31:47.980 Was just

00:31:49.040 Anyways

00:31:50.060 I don't think I'm out of it yet

00:31:52.140 But I mean

00:31:53.080 I think

00:31:54.040 What I'm trying to do

00:31:55.220 In this book

00:31:55.840 And documentary

00:31:56.680 Can you recommend

00:31:57.900 Can you recommend

00:31:59.640 A book to me

00:32:00.380 That you've

00:32:00.900 That you've written

00:32:01.600 I'd be

00:32:02.600 I'd be honoured

00:32:03.360 To send you one

00:32:04.280 I've done one

00:32:05.260 The one that's been

00:32:06.860 Printed most often

00:32:08.120 Is on the Canadian

00:32:10.000 Far-right

00:32:11.060 Antisemitic movement

00:32:13.880 It's called

00:32:14.740 Web of Hate

00:32:15.560 And Harper Collins

00:32:16.860 Published that

00:32:17.680 And it just documents

00:32:19.180 All of these different

00:32:19.980 So that's kind of

00:32:20.760 What I'm doing here

00:32:21.880 Is trying to suggest

00:32:24.120 To people

00:32:24.740 Well you know

00:32:25.400 Those protesters

00:32:26.100 You're seeing on your TV

00:32:27.280 And computer screens

00:32:28.340 A lot of them are paid

00:32:29.820 And those organisers

00:32:31.240 You're seeing

00:32:31.760 Many and most of them

00:32:32.940 Are paid

00:32:33.420 And there's a great degree

00:32:35.160 Of organisers

00:32:35.560 Because all the political guys

00:32:36.860 I know

00:32:37.160 I've talked to Carville

00:32:38.240 And others

00:32:38.880 You know

00:32:40.060 I've worked with them

00:32:40.660 In another context

00:32:41.620 I said you know

00:32:42.320 Take a look at this stuff

00:32:44.260 What do you think?

00:32:45.520 This is an exceedingly

00:32:48.520 Well organised

00:32:49.400 Well financed

00:32:50.440 Propaganda campaign

00:32:51.520 Some of them

00:32:52.320 Are saying to me

00:32:52.820 This is the best one

00:32:53.440 They've ever seen

00:32:53.980 In their lifetime

00:32:54.760 No it's certainly

00:32:57.540 One of the most successful

00:32:58.660 Yeah

00:32:59.740 So I don't want to

00:33:01.720 Depress the hell

00:33:02.560 Out of people

00:33:03.260 In my book

00:33:04.540 Or documentary

00:33:05.380 But I do want to

00:33:06.920 You know

00:33:07.500 Because you've been out there

00:33:08.460 Talking to the kids

00:33:09.580 It's something

00:33:10.000 I haven't done yet

00:33:11.160 I've taught

00:33:12.240 I'm a lawyer

00:33:13.800 So I've taught

00:33:14.560 It to young law students

00:33:16.440 What is

00:33:18.560 The way

00:33:19.800 To make things better?

00:33:21.660 What do you think

00:33:22.540 Is the prescription

00:33:23.440 For dealing

00:33:25.360 With the problem

00:33:27.000 We've got

00:33:27.420 Particularly

00:33:28.080 With this younger demographic?

00:33:31.780 Warren

00:33:32.460 I don't know

00:33:33.340 I don't know

00:33:35.200 I'm feeling so

00:33:37.920 Overwhelmed

00:33:39.600 At the moment

00:33:40.240 Yeah

00:33:41.240 That

00:33:42.060 All I can do

00:33:44.200 Is 0.88

00:33:45.020 Is 0.88

00:33:45.860 Write and speak

00:33:48.380 In the way

00:33:49.420 That I have

00:33:50.300 Until now

00:33:51.400 But I feel

00:33:52.640 That it's increasingly

00:33:53.580 Inadequate

00:33:54.360 Yeah

00:33:55.420 And

00:33:56.260 It almost

00:33:57.300 Doesn't matter

00:33:58.420 What one says

00:34:01.040 Because

00:34:02.360 What we're really

00:34:05.720 Looking at

00:34:06.680 Is a

00:34:08.740 It's a

00:34:10.880 Cultural war 0.56

00:34:11.900 Yeah

00:34:12.960 In which Israel 0.94

00:34:14.260 Is perceived

00:34:15.060 To be on the wrong side

00:34:16.420 And

00:34:18.240 And

00:34:19.060 And so

00:34:19.800 If your identity

00:34:21.060 Becomes

00:34:23.160 If your identity

00:34:24.860 As a young progressive

00:34:26.200 Becomes linked

00:34:28.800 To your

00:34:29.760 Position on

00:34:30.720 Zionism 0.99

00:34:31.340 And Israel 0.51

00:34:31.960 Then it's not

00:34:33.880 A question

00:34:34.560 Of coming up

00:34:36.280 With

00:34:36.980 Convincing

00:34:38.040 Facts

00:34:38.840 Or even

00:34:40.240 A compelling

00:34:40.880 Counter-narrative

00:34:42.380 Because

00:34:44.660 You're asking

00:34:47.480 Young people

00:34:48.360 To

00:34:49.900 To give up

00:34:53.000 An essential part

00:34:54.120 Of what they see

00:34:55.640 As themselves

00:34:56.600 Mm-hmm

00:34:58.000 So I don't know

00:35:01.200 How to fight that

00:35:02.040 Yeah

00:35:02.700 It's

00:35:03.140 It feels like

00:35:03.960 A 10-year project

00:35:05.080 You know

00:35:05.520 I think

00:35:06.400 You know

00:35:07.060 The

00:35:07.320 The labor movement

00:35:08.860 You know

00:35:09.680 We can work

00:35:10.120 On changing

00:35:10.520 Leadership

00:35:11.040 Academia

00:35:11.860 Look on

00:35:13.300 Changing the

00:35:14.140 Leadership there

00:35:14.740 That's underway

00:35:15.380 In Canada

00:35:16.160 And the United States

00:35:16.900 But the young people 1.00

00:35:18.160 Piece

00:35:18.520 I agree with you

00:35:19.460 It feels like

00:35:20.720 We've got a decade

00:35:21.540 Of work ahead of us

00:35:22.780 Oh I think

00:35:23.840 We have a generation

00:35:24.740 Of work

00:35:25.660 Yeah

00:35:26.580 Yeah

00:35:27.780 Listen

00:35:29.280 I thank you so much

00:35:31.200 I know you're busy

00:35:32.400 And beat

00:35:33.160 From being on the road

00:35:34.300 If I can impose

00:35:35.740 Upon you

00:35:36.300 As I move along

00:35:37.180 Because you've done

00:35:38.000 If I can just

00:35:39.600 Slip you an email

00:35:40.580 And say

00:35:41.120 What do you think

00:35:41.900 Here's where I'm going

00:35:43.280 Would that work

00:35:44.340 Would that

00:35:44.700 Whatever I can do

00:35:46.060 To help

00:35:46.480 Awesome

00:35:47.700 Listen

00:35:48.540 Well get some rest

00:35:49.680 God bless you

00:35:51.020 You're doing God's work

00:35:52.300 And I'll keep you

00:35:54.080 Post on what I'm up to

00:35:55.360 Both the

00:35:56.440 Documentary

00:35:57.260 And the book

00:35:58.100 And I'm so grateful

00:35:59.420 For the time

00:36:00.480 You've given me

00:36:01.140 Really any time

00:36:02.580 Where do you live

00:36:03.660 In Canada

00:36:04.180 So I'm living

00:36:05.740 I live outside

00:36:06.520 Toronto

00:36:07.060 In a place

00:36:07.600 Called Prince Edward

00:36:08.300 County

00:36:08.680 Where all the

00:36:09.300 Empire loyalists

00:36:10.420 Fled

00:36:10.820 After the

00:36:11.400 American Revolution

00:36:12.500 And

00:36:13.980 But I've got a

00:36:14.880 Place in Toronto

00:36:15.680 And

00:36:16.900 You know

00:36:17.700 My background

00:36:18.300 Is 0.88

00:36:18.800 As I said

00:36:19.360 Politics

00:36:20.080 And that's

00:36:21.300 Where I

00:36:21.640 Cottoned on

00:36:22.340 To this story

00:36:23.260 Is you know

00:36:24.200 I was despairing

00:36:25.200 Of everything

00:36:25.600 That was taking

00:36:26.000 Place

00:36:26.340 Because I've

00:36:26.720 Been

00:36:26.900 Even though

00:36:27.540 I'm a Catholic

00:36:28.100 I've been

00:36:28.520 A Zionist

00:36:29.120 For my

00:36:29.420 Entire life

00:36:30.120 And

00:36:31.120 I

00:36:32.440 I just

00:36:33.400 It's when

00:36:33.800 My light bulb

00:36:34.360 Went off

00:36:34.680 In my head

00:36:35.120 I said 1.00

00:36:35.340 Holy shit 0.99

00:36:36.120 This is 0.98

00:36:36.980 This is

00:36:37.000 Like a

00:36:37.380 Really

00:36:37.800 Well run

00:36:38.520 Campaign

00:36:39.060 You know

00:36:39.560 I've seen

00:36:40.060 The manuals

00:36:40.980 And the

00:36:41.280 Graphics

00:36:41.940 And here's

00:36:42.780 The lawyer

00:36:43.240 You contact

00:36:43.980 If you're

00:36:44.540 Arrested

00:36:45.100 At the

00:36:45.340 Protest

00:36:45.720 And here's

00:36:46.840 The signage

00:36:47.540 We've developed

00:36:48.240 For you

00:36:48.740 And the

00:36:48.980 Banners 1.00

00:36:49.340 And all

00:36:49.720 The rest

00:36:50.080 Of it

00:36:50.420 Like it's

00:36:51.380 Extraordinarily

00:36:52.920 Complex

00:36:53.760 Campaign that

00:36:54.640 They're running

00:36:55.140 Here

00:36:55.540 And there's

00:36:56.980 Obviously a

00:36:57.520 Lot of

00:36:57.800 Doe 1.00

00:36:58.120 And a lot

00:36:58.560 Of organization

00:36:59.060 Behind it

00:36:59.780 So that

00:37:00.480 You know

00:37:01.100 I'm looking

00:37:01.500 At it

00:37:01.860 Online

00:37:02.260 I'm looking

00:37:02.700 On it

00:37:03.140 In the

00:37:03.540 Streets

00:37:04.060 And so

00:37:05.060 On

00:37:05.300 And there's

00:37:07.260 One woman 0.50

00:37:07.720 I've dealt

00:37:08.240 With quite

00:37:08.640 A bit

00:37:09.060 Talor

00:37:10.440 Cohen

00:37:10.940 Montemayor

00:37:11.740 She's in

00:37:12.720 Tel Aviv

00:37:13.200 And she's

00:37:14.560 Brilliant

00:37:14.940 And you

00:37:16.460 Know her

00:37:16.840 Thesis is

00:37:17.640 Mine

00:37:18.040 Basically this

00:37:20.180 Started

00:37:20.780 On the

00:37:22.100 Morning of

00:37:22.880 The 7th

00:37:23.780 Right so

00:37:24.200 They flicked

00:37:24.700 A switch

00:37:25.260 It was

00:37:26.040 Principally

00:37:26.600 In Arabic

00:37:27.140 For the

00:37:27.640 First three

00:37:28.060 Or four

00:37:28.400 Days

00:37:28.800 By the

00:37:29.580 10th

00:37:29.900 And the

00:37:30.140 11th

00:37:30.780 They started

00:37:31.400 To surge

00:37:32.060 Tested

00:37:32.920 You know

00:37:33.640 Geo

00:37:34.140 Demographic

00:37:35.440 Messaging

00:37:37.620 In English

00:37:38.760 Around the

00:37:39.800 World

00:37:40.120 Centred in

00:37:41.960 United States

00:37:42.940 And Britain

00:37:43.420 And to some

00:37:44.360 Extent in

00:37:44.880 Canada

00:37:45.280 And it's

00:37:46.360 Just you

00:37:47.040 Know and

00:37:47.340 They have

00:37:47.560 Different messaging

00:37:48.260 For different

00:37:48.840 Platforms

00:37:49.600 They say one

00:37:50.080 Thing on

00:37:50.380 Facebook

00:37:50.740 Because you

00:37:51.240 Know it's

00:37:51.500 Predominantly

00:37:52.180 Older folks 0.99

00:37:53.440 They say one

00:37:54.080 Thing on

00:37:54.480 TikTok

00:37:54.800 Which is

00:37:55.880 Obviously a

00:37:56.380 Huge problem

00:37:56.920 Like it's a

00:37:57.800 Really well

00:37:58.480 Integrated

00:37:59.080 Campaign

00:37:59.480 So my

00:37:59.920 Hope is to

00:38:00.700 Expose

00:38:01.380 That

00:38:01.720 And because

00:38:03.400 My part

00:38:04.300 Of my

00:38:04.580 Solution

00:38:05.040 Is to

00:38:06.180 Say to

00:38:06.620 These young

00:38:07.060 People you

00:38:07.860 Have been

00:38:08.220 Hoodwinked

00:38:09.260 You've been

00:38:09.640 Manipulated

00:38:10.320 By people

00:38:11.040 Who want you

00:38:12.060 To believe

00:38:12.460 There are

00:38:12.800 Jewish space

00:38:13.440 Lasers and 0.98

00:38:14.600 You shouldn't

00:38:15.440 And you

00:38:16.680 Know you're

00:38:17.000 Being taken

00:38:18.000 Advantage of

00:38:18.740 So that's

00:38:19.460 Well I'm

00:38:20.520 I'm deeply

00:38:21.280 Grateful and

00:38:22.240 It's actually

00:38:23.320 Not surprising

00:38:24.300 To me that

00:38:24.960 You're Catholic

00:38:25.560 Because I

00:38:26.240 Think there's

00:38:26.840 And I

00:38:28.100 Thought this

00:38:28.480 For a

00:38:28.760 Long time

00:38:29.420 A big

00:38:30.500 Divide

00:38:31.580 Between

00:38:32.640 Catholicism

00:38:34.600 And the

00:38:36.300 Mainline

00:38:36.940 Liberal

00:38:37.440 Churches

00:38:38.160 Especially

00:38:38.960 On this

00:38:39.620 Issue

00:38:40.080 And I

00:38:42.120 Have found

00:38:42.740 For

00:38:43.480 I mean I

00:38:44.420 Personally

00:38:44.960 Am just

00:38:45.800 I'm close

00:38:47.880 To some

00:38:48.460 Monastic

00:38:49.460 Communities

00:38:50.200 Here in

00:38:50.760 Israel

00:38:51.140 And I

00:38:53.080 Have

00:38:53.360 Actually

00:38:54.140 Wrote a

00:38:54.560 Book about

00:38:55.040 A journey

00:38:55.460 That I

00:38:55.820 Took into

00:38:57.140 Christianity

00:38:58.640 And Islam

00:38:59.440 In Israel 0.79

00:39:00.860 And it

00:39:02.660 Was mostly

00:39:03.180 Into Catholic 0.98

00:39:04.780 Monastic

00:39:05.920 Communities

00:39:06.560 And I

00:39:08.620 Have long

00:39:09.100 Despair

00:39:09.720 Of the

00:39:10.720 Mainline

00:39:11.180 Churches

00:39:11.920 But feel

00:39:13.140 That we

00:39:15.100 Really have

00:39:16.040 A chance

00:39:18.140 To make

00:39:18.540 Our case

00:39:19.160 Among Catholics

00:39:20.380 And I

00:39:21.040 Know it's

00:39:21.520 Mixed

00:39:22.260 There

00:39:22.420 I know

00:39:22.660 It's

00:39:22.820 Complicated

00:39:23.460 There are

00:39:24.260 And

00:39:25.280 And we're

00:39:25.720 Losing

00:39:26.060 We're

00:39:26.780 Really

00:39:27.000 Losing

00:39:27.360 Ground

00:39:27.840 But

00:39:28.640 I

00:39:29.180 Don't

00:39:29.980 Sense

00:39:30.500 At all

00:39:31.140 The same

00:39:32.380 Hatred

00:39:33.460 For Israel 0.61

00:39:34.080 As I

00:39:35.680 Feel

00:39:36.020 In the

00:39:36.620 Mainline

00:39:37.220 Churches

00:39:37.880 Including

00:39:38.420 In Canada

00:39:39.080 You know

00:39:40.140 Canada's

00:39:41.140 Got a

00:39:41.380 Big

00:39:41.540 Problem

00:39:41.940 Yeah

00:39:42.700 Depending

00:39:44.120 On which

00:39:44.500 Metrics

00:39:45.040 You apply

00:39:45.560 To it

00:39:46.100 Canada's

00:39:47.360 You know

00:39:47.860 Competitive

00:39:48.580 With Britain 0.86

00:39:49.220 And

00:39:49.600 France

00:39:50.760 With

00:39:51.420 Expressions

00:39:52.460 Of

00:39:52.620 Anti-Semitism

00:39:53.280 But

00:39:53.580 Yeah

00:39:53.800 You know

00:39:54.200 As my

00:39:54.680 Pope

00:39:55.040 Says 0.93

00:39:55.460 As flawed

00:39:56.540 As he

00:39:56.960 May be

00:39:57.540 We regard

00:39:59.160 Anti-Semitism

00:39:59.920 As a mortal

00:40:00.660 Sin

00:40:00.960 It's a sin

00:40:01.460 Against

00:40:01.800 God

00:40:02.140 So that

00:40:03.420 Is my

00:40:03.840 Personal

00:40:04.300 Belief

00:40:04.760 Well

00:40:05.620 I'm

00:40:06.020 Honored

00:40:06.860 To help

00:40:08.020 You

00:40:08.260 If I

00:40:08.800 Can

00:40:09.240 And

00:40:09.900 God be

00:40:10.560 With

00:40:10.800 You

00:40:11.020 Okay

00:40:11.940 Well

00:40:12.220 And

00:40:12.660 With

00:40:13.160 You

00:40:13.420 So get

00:40:14.100 Some rest

00:40:14.600 I promise

00:40:15.300 Not to

00:40:15.740 Bug you

00:40:16.040 Too much

00:40:16.520 But I

00:40:17.140 Think

00:40:17.380 Now you

00:40:17.900 Know where

00:40:18.200 I'm

00:40:18.360 Going

00:40:18.660 With this

00:40:19.140 Thing

00:40:19.460 So if

00:40:20.040 You have

00:40:20.220 Any thought

00:40:20.860 Or anybody

00:40:21.360 You think

00:40:21.900 I should

00:40:22.320 Speak to

00:40:22.920 I'd be

00:40:23.600 Most grateful

00:40:24.220 If you

00:40:24.540 Could let

00:40:24.820 Me know

00:40:25.180 We'll

00:40:26.040 We'll

00:40:26.340 Give it

00:40:26.920 Some thought

00:40:27.520 And really

00:40:28.860 Anytime

00:40:29.460 Just let

00:40:31.100 Me know

00:40:31.460 I will

00:40:32.320 Okay

00:40:32.820 Thank you

00:40:33.300 My friend

00:40:33.780 Appreciate it

00:40:35.340 All the best

00:40:44.600 A fiction

00:41:00.680 Romance

00:41:01.480 I love

00:41:02.220 This

00:41:02.400 Lost

00:41:02.600 Story

00:41:03.320 That

00:41:06.720 Never

00:41:07.120 Seems

00:41:07.720 To

00:41:08.280 Happen

00:41:09.080 In

00:41:09.380 My

00:41:09.780 Life

00:41:10.420 A fiction

00:41:13.480 Romance

00:41:14.340 All of

00:41:15.260 A glory

00:41:15.960 That

00:41:19.520 Never

00:41:19.900 Seems

00:41:20.480 To

00:41:21.020 Happen

00:41:21.800 In

00:41:22.100 My

00:41:22.480 Life

00:41:23.180 Dreams

00:41:26.300 Of

00:41:26.540 Love

00:41:26.920 And

00:41:27.420 Dreams

00:41:27.840 Of

00:41:28.120 Pain

00:41:28.580 And

00:41:29.120 Dreams

00:41:29.600 Again

00:41:30.340 Again

00:41:31.180 Again

00:41:31.900 Again

00:41:32.560 Which

00:41:33.100 Can

00:41:33.400 Be

00:41:33.760 Yours

00:41:34.140 Just

00:41:34.460 By

00:41:34.720 Taking

00:41:35.060 Hold

00:41:35.980 Dreams

00:41:39.160 That

00:41:39.560 I

00:41:39.940 Can

00:41:40.360 Realize

00:41:41.460 Are

00:41:41.940 Quite

00:41:42.380 Contained

00:41:43.220 Within

00:41:43.660 Your

00:41:44.140 Eyes

00:41:44.920 Say

00:41:45.720 Fiction

00:41:46.460 Romance

00:41:47.500 Is 0.88

00:41:47.700 Not

00:41:47.920 So

00:41:48.280 Old

00:41:48.900 A

00:41:54.840 Fiction

00:41:55.100 Romance

00:41:55.880 The love

00:41:56.620 Of the

00:41:56.980 Ages

00:41:57.720 That

00:42:01.020 Never

00:42:01.420 Seems

00:42:02.020 To

00:42:02.460 Matter

00:42:02.980 In

00:42:03.580 My

00:42:03.940 Life

00:42:04.600 A

00:42:07.360 Picture

00:42:07.600 Romance

00:42:08.440 On

00:42:08.880 Magazine

00:42:09.340 Pages

00:42:10.300 That

00:42:13.520 Never

00:42:13.860 Seems

00:42:14.420 To

00:42:14.840 Feature

00:42:15.420 In

00:42:16.000 My

00:42:16.360 Life

00:42:17.100 Dreaming

00:42:20.520 Scheming

00:42:21.340 Honor

00:42:21.840 Were

00:42:22.380 There

00:42:22.740 Quite

00:42:23.360 Some

00:42:23.820 Words

00:42:24.240 Some

00:42:24.620 Honor

00:42:25.080 Work

00:42:25.680 Though

00:42:26.020 Are

00:42:26.700 Not

00:42:27.020 Thinking

00:42:27.360 About

00:42:27.800 What

00:42:28.100 They

00:42:28.400 Have

00:42:28.860 Been

00:42:29.200 Told

00:42:29.840 Something

00:42:33.080 Strange

00:42:33.860 Is 0.88

00:42:34.200 Happening

00:42:34.780 To

00:42:35.040 The

00:42:35.580 Way

00:42:36.060 I

00:42:36.380 See

00:42:36.740 The

00:42:37.200 World

00:42:37.640 I

00:42:37.980 View

00:42:38.340 That

00:42:38.800 Fiction

00:42:39.560 Romance

00:42:40.600 Is 0.88

00:42:41.620 Not

00:42:41.960 Soled

00:42:43.280 As

00:42:48.260 A

00:42:48.420 Fiction

00:42:48.700 Romantic

00:42:49.480 I

00:42:50.000 Never

00:42:50.340 Expected

00:42:51.060 All

00:42:54.840 These

00:42:55.140 Things

00:42:55.480 To

00:42:55.960 Happen

00:42:56.760 In

00:42:57.060 Real

00:42:57.500 Life

00:42:58.160 And

00:43:00.700 No

00:43:00.880 Fiction

00:43:01.160 Romantic

00:43:02.120 Could

00:43:02.480 Ever

00:43:02.740 Be

00:43:03.000 Dicted

00:43:03.700 All

00:43:07.300 The

00:43:07.600 Things

00:43:08.040 That

00:43:08.560 Happened

00:43:09.340 In

00:43:09.660 My

00:43:10.020 Life

00:43:10.700 When

00:43:13.680 I

00:43:14.000 Don't

00:43:14.400 Know

00:43:14.800 What

00:43:15.320 To

00:43:15.640 Do

00:43:16.020 I

00:43:16.520 Just

00:43:17.100 Think

00:43:17.480 About

00:43:17.960 Me

00:43:18.560 And

00:43:18.940 You

00:43:19.260 If

00:43:20.320 I

00:43:20.640 Was

00:43:20.940 A

00:43:21.140 Little

00:43:21.380 Stronger

00:43:21.960 Than

00:43:22.200 I

00:43:22.480 Be

00:43:22.880 Bold

00:43:23.520 Something

00:43:26.760 Strange

00:43:27.500 Is 0.88

00:43:27.840 Handled

00:43:28.400 To

00:43:28.740 Yeah

00:43:29.140 I

00:43:29.440 Don't

00:43:29.860 Know

00:43:30.260 What

00:43:30.560 These

00:43:31.000 Shivers

00:43:31.480 Mean

00:43:31.980 To

00:43:32.240 You

00:43:32.580 This

00:43:33.140 Is 0.88

00:43:33.320 A

00:43:33.480 Fiction

00:43:33.840 And

00:43:34.140 A

00:43:34.340 Romance

00:43:35.060 Getting

00:43:35.440 Hold

00:43:36.360 Too

00:43:39.720 Up

00:43:41.440 Up

00:43:42.640 On

00:43:42.840 Your

00:43:42.980 R

00:43:43.260 mastered

00:43:43.760 To

00:43:44.340 With

00:43:49.540 grained

00:43:50.740 Fish and Romans

00:44:20.740 Fish and Romans

00:44:50.740 This is CFRA Live, Sunday political panel.

00:45:04.020 And welcome to it. Joining us for our political panel on this Sunday morning is Carl Belanger. He's the president at Traction Strategies. Good morning, Carl.

00:45:14.500 Morning, Andrew.

00:45:15.460 Warren Kinsella is a strategist and post-media columnist. Joins us on the phone this morning. Warren, thanks so much.

00:45:20.160 Morning, guys.

00:45:20.920 Tasha Carradine is a political columnist for the National Post and author, a writer for GZERO Media as well. Good morning, Tasha.

00:45:27.060 Hello.

00:45:28.040 So lots of there's lots on the docket this week. Maybe one we'll get to because we have seen this on the international front.

00:45:32.880 The prime minister has endorsed U.S. President Joe Biden's peace plan.

00:45:37.380 Well, I guess a plan for a ceasefire in the Middle East. We'll see how that kind of comes to fruition.

00:45:42.400 But the prime minister also kind of taking some heat for not taking a firm stance one way or the other when it comes to dealing with Israel and Hamas.

00:45:50.900 There's a piece in the Star this morning kind of looking at that as well.

00:45:54.960 I guess, Warren, I'll start with you because I know you've been covering the different parts and aspects of some of the demonstrations that we've seen.

00:46:00.500 But what do you make of the prime minister's kind of reaction so far politically to this situation?

00:46:06.280 It was a non-reaction to the extent that the embassy of Israel had to issue an official statement basically condemning our prime minister and our foreign affairs minister for not, you know, giving an answer.

00:46:20.440 Like the entire world, after Biden made his statement, stepped up to the microphone and said, you know, what they thought of it.

00:46:27.360 Most of them approved of it. And Canada didn't.

00:46:30.940 And I think this is symptomatic of what we've been seeing since October 7th.

00:46:34.680 And it's led this week, this week in Canada, firebombing of a synagogue in Vancouver, shooting up of a Jewish school in Montreal, the shooting up of a Jewish school in Toronto.

00:46:45.680 Like we've got a big problem. If you look at all the metrics, we probably have one of the worst anti-Semitism, anti-Semitic crime problems in the world.

00:46:55.220 And it's incumbent upon our top leader, which is Justin Trudeau, to be more clear.

00:47:00.840 But he hasn't been that way. And it's created this environment where the Jewish community, I can tell you, are feeling isolated and lonely and, you know, under attack.

00:47:11.480 And we need some leadership and we're just not getting it.

00:47:14.300 And I've mentioned, you know, luckily, locally, we haven't seen any major issues or incidents like this, but no doubt some very violent incidents happening and concerning incidents in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver this week.

00:47:26.860 Tasha, when it comes to the political aspect of this, just reading the headline of the Star this morning, Ottawa's waffling on Gaza makes commitment to human rights look shaky.

00:47:34.060 Is Justin Trudeau waffling here in your mind?

00:47:37.940 Yeah, Justin Trudeau has been waffling since the beginning of this.

00:47:41.300 And it's a purely electoral calculus. I hate to say it.

00:47:45.000 You know, the Muslim population of Canada is about 5 percent.

00:47:48.660 Many of them, not all, but many of them are sympathetic to what is happening in Gaza.

00:47:55.860 Some have maybe even connections to people in Gaza.

00:47:58.200 And then there's 1 percent of the population, I think approximately, is Jewish, who have connections also, in many cases, to family, people they know in Israel.

00:48:08.300 But the point is, it's 5 and it's 1.

00:48:10.260 And I hate to say it that way, but we saw this play out in by-elections provincially here in Ontario.

00:48:15.900 We've seen this issue now federally.

00:48:18.080 Justin Trudeau has not been equivocal because he wants to have it both ways.

00:48:22.640 He wants to maintain support in the Jewish community, which, frankly, has pretty much fled the Liberal Party at this point.

00:48:28.200 And the Muslim community, which is also fleeing, ironically, to the NDP.

00:48:32.000 So he's pleased nobody by refusing to defend what's right and defend and, like Warren said, speak out against incidents of domestic hatred and violence against the Jewish community that are happening here on a daily basis.

00:48:46.960 And that's the result of it, because people feel they have license.

00:48:49.780 I hate to say it.

00:48:50.620 They have license to protest, occupy university campuses.

00:48:53.820 I mean, it goes on and on and on and on.

00:48:55.200 And it starts at the top, and he's at the top, and he's not doing his job.

00:48:59.700 Hear, hear.

00:49:00.360 And, Carl, would you, I guess, tough for, in a political sense, I guess, what do you do as the prime minister?

00:49:06.980 But is he kind of risking alienating everybody in this situation when you're not making either side very happy at all?

00:49:13.420 Right, that's the political risk.

00:49:16.020 When you're trying to make everybody happy, or at least not to hurt anybody, you end up hurting everybody.

00:49:23.540 And that's the problem with the kind of positioning that just Trudeau has taken, especially the last few weeks.

00:49:31.820 He is trying to walk a fine line, but that line is so fine that he ends up stepping on both sides, and that's the position that's not, I don't think it's sustainable, to be honest.

00:49:45.100 And, you know, if Justin Trudeau was taking a principal position and sticking to it, it would be one thing.

00:49:53.820 But he's wavering, he's waffling, he's trying to be both things to both sides.

00:50:01.100 And it's not working, and I think that's problematic for him.

00:50:06.520 But, you know, at the same time, to be fair, there was some ruffle inside the Liberal caucus about this issue.

00:50:16.600 But it's happened a couple of, like I would say two months ago.

00:50:20.080 And since then, I think people have kept, you know, have stayed pretty much united in the party.

00:50:27.240 So maybe that's why he's doing it this way, to make sure he doesn't lose control of his caucus over this issue.

00:50:32.560 Tasha, you mentioned a by-election coming up.

00:50:36.680 I just wanted to touch on that.

00:50:37.720 I know I didn't have it on our list today, but there is a by-election coming up on June 24th.

00:50:41.640 Just given the nature of this situation that we are seeing right now, kind of playing into the polls, obviously,

00:50:47.380 do you think that's even more important for the, or an even more important measuring stick for the Liberals heading into the next election in Toronto-St. Paul?

00:50:56.140 Yeah, this by-election is happening in a riding where there is a significant Jewish community.

00:51:00.340 And the Conservatives have put forward an excellent candidate.

00:51:05.400 I mean, full disclosure, I know him personally.

00:51:06.840 I'm on a board of a charity with him.

00:51:09.960 And they are, you know, pushing full bore to try and get this riding.

00:51:16.960 And if they do, it is a bit of a litmus test.

00:51:19.040 This riding, I think, has been Liberal since Barbara McDougal vacated it back in the 1990s.

00:51:24.520 So it is an uphill climb.

00:51:27.760 But there are signs in the riding that people are very angry at the door.

00:51:31.560 They're very angry with the Liberal Party and not just the Jewish community.

00:51:34.820 They're angry on all sorts of issues.

00:51:37.380 So, yes, if this riding flips, that, I think, you know, if this riding flips, I think that's a sign to Justin Trudeau.

00:51:43.580 It's really time to pack it in.

00:51:45.220 I mean, I think it is anyway, but, you know, it really would be.

00:51:48.800 And we'll see what happens.

00:51:50.080 I mean, it's still, like you said, there's three weeks to go.

00:51:52.240 Yeah, and Warren, as Tasha mentioned, you know, a large contingent of a Jewish population within Toronto St. Paul's as well.

00:51:58.180 But it also has been traditionally Liberal.

00:51:59.680 Do you think possibly this issue could hurt them in this upcoming election?

00:52:04.300 Yeah, I think so.

00:52:05.500 Like, as Tasha says, there is a Jewish vote there.

00:52:08.980 I don't know if it's enough to make a difference in a riding like St. Paul's.

00:52:12.780 Like, St. Paul's is, like, if it's the end of the world for the Liberal Party of Canada,

00:52:17.420 and they have two seats left, Mount Royal will be one, and this will be the other one.

00:52:21.680 So, like, if they lose this one, like, it's all over.

00:52:26.980 Like, turn out the lights.

00:52:28.700 But I'd be surprised if they do.

00:52:31.160 It's probably going to be a much narrower gap than it's been in the past few elections.

00:52:34.620 Leslie Church, who I've known for years, is running there.

00:52:37.660 She's a very smart and capable person.

00:52:40.520 And, you know, your individual client, your candidate in a by-election does matter.

00:52:48.100 So she's a capable candidate.

00:52:51.020 But, you know, Justin Trudeau is personally so unpopular right now.

00:52:56.900 You know, I imagine she's hearing it at the doors that the guy's got to go.

00:53:02.140 And that's from longtime Liberals, too.

00:53:03.980 And the Conservative Party running Don Stewart, as Tasha mentioned, and Emerit Parha running for the NDP.

00:53:10.580 Carl, do you think this is going to be an issue that could come to the forefront in this by-election,

00:53:15.180 the whole situation surrounding the Gaza War?

00:53:17.400 For sure.

00:53:20.000 And the thing that happens in a by-election is that the dynamic is very different in a general election.

00:53:27.280 And certainly the participation, the voting turnout, is lower.

00:53:31.660 So people who are angry tend to show up more, and they are more motivated, they pay more attention.

00:53:38.480 And the people who are just fine with the government, who are kind of apathetic, will not show up,

00:53:44.260 because it doesn't matter, right?

00:53:45.620 It will not change anything in the composition of the House of Commons, really.

00:53:48.460 So, yes, it could have very well happened that the Conservatives could pull this off

00:53:53.000 because of the underlying anger that we're seeing about the Trudeau government in general

00:53:57.980 and on the issue of Gaza and Israel in particular.

00:54:02.660 Moving on to another story this week I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on.

00:54:05.860 And maybe, Carl, I'll start with you on this.

00:54:07.280 Greg Fergis surviving that vote to oust him from the House of Commons on Tuesday as Speaker, I should say.

00:54:12.960 Close to half of MPs expressing a loss of confidence in him.

00:54:15.860 So he does face a precarious path moving forward here, no matter what.

00:54:19.900 I guess, Carl, did he do the right thing by staying on, in a sense of trying to maintain his own,

00:54:24.940 I guess, political machinations here?

00:54:27.700 Or should he have stepped down, do you think?

00:54:29.640 Well, I think he should have stepped down a while ago.

00:54:32.440 But to be fair to him, the latest instance was not his fault.

00:54:36.800 It was a junior communication officer in the Liberal Party of Canada's headquarter

00:54:41.340 who just, you know, slapped a partisan template on their local writing association barbecue

00:54:47.080 and they threw in the anti-poly of messages in it without even thinking that this could cause problems for the speaker.

00:54:57.220 But I think the bigger point is that perhaps it's time for us in Canada to look at what's happening in the U.K.

00:55:04.660 when it comes to the speaker, where the minute they are elected speaker, they become independent.

00:55:11.300 They are no longer affiliated with the political party.

00:55:13.940 And in fact, in the election right now, the speaker is running under the banner, speaker.

00:55:18.300 So you don't have any of these accusations.

00:55:21.000 You don't have to play the political game, even at a local writing level,

00:55:24.860 because you are free from that political affiliation.

00:55:28.000 And, you know, we've all seen the problems of Greg Ferguson, the lack of judgment over time.

00:55:35.660 But perhaps this could be all avoided if we had that speakership a little more independent than we have here.

00:55:42.900 Yeah, definitely a fantastic thing or idea in some senses.

00:55:47.240 Warren, I guess from Greg Ferguson's perspective, you can argue all day long that perhaps you've done nothing wrong here.

00:55:54.020 But do you think this has become a larger distraction than it needed to be?

00:55:56.740 Yeah, it has.

00:55:58.320 I mean, in fairness to him, in fairness to the office, you know, when you're a speaker,

00:56:02.900 you're still a member of a political party.

00:56:04.700 You've got to run as a member of a political party if you are seeking re-election.

00:56:09.020 And you've got to fundraise.

00:56:10.480 And so you're, you know, you're in a bit of a bind.

00:56:13.440 But previous speakers have been able to do that without gutting the office.

00:56:18.720 And the problem with Greg, and, you know, he's a very nice guy and people like him.

00:56:23.420 I think that's part of the reason why he got elected speaker.

00:56:25.700 He's been a disaster.

00:56:27.980 You know, the one thing you have to do as speaker, the one requirement for the job,

00:56:34.040 is maintaining the confidence of all sides of the House of Commons.

00:56:37.800 They have to have the belief that you're going to be impartial.

00:56:41.700 Well, that's long gone.

00:56:43.000 He's now on, I think this is episode number four, where his impartiality has been called into question.

00:56:48.840 So it's done, like it's over.

00:56:51.640 And, you know, will they get rid of him?

00:56:54.020 Probably not.

00:56:55.020 He's been protected in votes because the Conservatives attempt to get rid of him a few times.

00:57:01.060 But, you know, I think they know they're not going to succeed.

00:57:03.780 They're just trying to shine a light on the fact that this guy's not being fair.

00:57:07.160 And they're right.

00:57:08.280 He's not being fair.

00:57:10.220 Yeah, conceding defeat, not a popular political stance nowadays.

00:57:13.320 So I doubt that we will see him step down.

00:57:15.680 But, Tasha, do you think this has become more of a distraction than anything else for Greg Ferguson and the rest of the House of Commons?

00:57:22.500 Well, you know, I've known Greg since high school.

00:57:25.780 He's a really nice guy.

00:57:28.760 But he has messed up.

00:57:31.220 And, yeah, even if it was a junior staffer, I think it's more symptomatic what was said afterwards.

00:57:35.980 You know, Mark Holland, okay, thinks that, you know, road trips are going to fry the planet.

00:57:40.080 Oh, my God, don't get me started.

00:57:42.280 Mark Holland, health minister, said, Speaker Fergus has made some errors as a human being.

00:57:47.340 He's apologized for them.

00:57:48.740 But I think he's a person who profoundly respects the chamber and has my confidence.

00:57:52.840 This is the problem with this government.

00:57:54.700 Everyone screws up.

00:57:55.800 There's no consequences.

00:57:57.060 There's no consequences.

00:57:58.240 And I think that is part of the fatigue people have with it, is that whatever happens, it's, oh, I'm so sorry, and I'm still here.

00:58:06.200 That's not how the real world works.

00:58:08.620 And that's what this government doesn't get, is that they're out of touch with how people actually live their lives.

00:58:14.120 You make mistakes on the job.

00:58:15.360 You make three, four mistakes.

00:58:16.580 You're fired, right?

00:58:18.320 So they have to set an example.

00:58:20.540 I hate to say it.

00:58:21.580 He's a nice guy, really nice guy.

00:58:23.280 But this is, the off to the speaker has become a laughing stock in terms of impartiality at this point.

00:58:29.440 And you mentioned out of touch.

00:58:30.500 That makes me kind of think of another story I wanted to bring up this week in a sense of, is it kind of out of touch here to see?

00:58:35.180 The liberals had this legislation kind of plan that would delay the election, not by that much, really.

00:58:40.420 But the idea is by delaying it a couple of days, you're giving MPs full pensions in that case.

00:58:47.200 So I don't know.

00:58:47.800 It does seem out of touch the idea that you get a full gold plate in pension after working at a job for five years.

00:58:53.200 Carl, do you think this is a potential issue that liberals could get hit hard on?

00:58:56.980 The NDP is already trying.

00:58:58.000 Yeah, I think it's a potential big issue because it's compounding the other problems that they have.

00:59:05.960 And frankly, the excuse that this was for a religious reason to, you know, to accommodate Diwali is laughable because you could have moved it up.

00:59:17.480 It could have been earlier.

00:59:18.720 It didn't need to be later.

00:59:20.260 It could have been earlier.

00:59:21.640 So they got caught.

00:59:23.240 What surprised me is how long it took the NDP to step out on this issue.

00:59:29.400 You know, they finally did it.

00:59:31.960 I think it's a good move because the one thing the NDP needs to do is establish some contrast, some daylight between them and the Liberal Party.

00:59:40.220 And they found an issue here where the government moved in with a bill, a bill that the NDP was working on with them, but they didn't have knowledge of this clause.

00:59:48.680 But it's been months now since that bill's been tabled.

00:59:51.840 And finally, right before the first debate in the House, the NDP said, we're moving an amendment on this because we don't think it's fair to make that move, to allow these 80 MPs to get their pension by delaying the election.

01:00:05.860 So I think the Liberals will have no choice but to remove this clause from the bill if they want it to go through.

01:00:13.100 Warren, does this just kind of add to that messaging that, you know, well, the Conservatives picked up on that, that Justin Trudeau is out of touch.

01:00:18.940 Does this, you know, just add to that messaging?

01:00:22.000 Oh, for sure.

01:00:22.900 And like, I got to say, I was shocked by the response of the NDP.

01:00:28.500 Like, you know, I know politicians in Ottawa like to say, you know, they're there for the greater good and so on.

01:00:35.720 I remember Preston Manning and his Reform Caucus. 0.78

01:00:40.080 Remember, they were on Parliament Hill that time, and they had pigs, people wearing pig masks, sticking their head in a snout and saying they'd never take the parliamentary pension. 0.87

01:00:50.620 Well, guess what? 0.55

01:00:51.720 Every single one of them, including Manning, did, who was living in Stornoway at the time.

01:00:56.620 So, like, you know, they say one thing and do another.

01:01:00.780 Like, the NDP following through on this, I was like, wow, like, this really hits a lot of members, 80 of them, in the pocketbook.

01:01:09.800 It is, you know, for those members who have been sitting there in the back benches twiddling their thumbs for six years, this is a big, big deal.

01:01:17.780 I thought Trudeau was doing it to avoid a caucus revolt.

01:01:21.840 I'm wondering now if some of them start to speak up on his leadership now that they're not going to be getting the pension.

01:01:28.040 That's a good point as well.

01:01:30.180 I guess, Tasha, you know, particularly during the affordability crisis that we've been having right now, is this just not a good look for the Liberals?

01:01:38.080 No, it's a terrible look.

01:01:41.500 Again, it goes to the sense that there's just no consequence.

01:01:44.540 There's no one, you know, running the show here.

01:01:47.780 It's interesting to see how it breaks down in terms of those 80 people, because six of them are NDP MPs.

01:01:53.300 So the NDP has, you know, a fairly substantial portion of their caucus, 22 Liberals, 19 Bloc, and 32 Conservatives.

01:02:00.840 Now, the Conservatives probably aren't that worried because of the polls, but for everyone else, maybe less the Bloc, you know, it's an issue.

01:02:09.700 And I think that this, you know, the government was tone deaf, tone deaf to sort of bury it.

01:02:14.080 It's very sneaky, too.

01:02:14.960 They buried it in a bill about voting, right? 0.97

01:02:17.780 Oh, of course we want people to vote more, but this is ridiculous.

01:02:21.000 Moving the election date and sort of just sliding it in there, it looks even worse than if you were honest about it and said, oh, we want to move the election date.

01:02:29.440 Yeah, and Diwali is happening, but you could back it the other way, as was pointed out.

01:02:33.760 You don't have to move it farther.

01:02:35.360 Lots of fodder that the government's going to have to fend off when the House returns here. 0.97

01:02:42.020 Just a couple of minutes left, I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on South of the Border, kind of a bonus political question this morning.

01:02:47.220 But we're watching the Trump hush money verdict come through this week.

01:02:50.100 Obviously, he was found guilty on 34 felony counts.

01:02:52.500 And I don't know, just as political watchers yourselves, I just kind of watch you in awe of what's going to happen next.

01:02:58.160 Tash, I'll just start with you.

01:02:59.160 So what do you make of this?

01:03:00.720 I think Donald Trump is right in a sense of, you know, the voters are going to be the ultimate poll in November.

01:03:04.760 But what do you just make of this whole unprecedented situation?

01:03:08.360 Well, I think it's just sad that, you know, the United States is the choices they have on offer for their president include a convicted felon.

01:03:17.300 You know, it's not, I sort of blink at this and wonder what things have come to, because people will still vote for him.

01:03:25.500 Some won't, perhaps, but I think most of his voters look at this as like he painted it, which is, it's a setup, it's the courts are being used against me, it's lawfare, essentially.

01:03:37.420 It's the worst thing that can happen to democracy, because you lose faith in the institutions.

01:03:41.400 Yeah, he had all the greatest hits out this week.

01:03:43.640 Carl, just is watching from afar, just so what were your kind of takeaways from watching this go down this week?

01:03:47.840 Well, what's terrible about what's happening is that it doesn't disqualify him, and I'm not saying legally, I'm saying in the political opinion.

01:03:57.900 The fact that the Americans have lost faith in their institution to the point where a man can be convicted 34 times, not once, not twice, 34 times,

01:04:10.200 and still be, you know, riding high on the poles and being, a few days from being officially nominated as this party's candidate for the presidency,

01:04:20.480 that's the problem, that's the dangerous slope we're in, where if the Americans have lost faith in their institution,

01:04:28.040 the institutions that are there to safeguard a democracy and their freedom, and in fact think that they are somehow corrupt,

01:04:33.900 and there's a plot, and it's the Democrats, and this and that, it can lead to a very dangerous situation down the road.

01:04:41.040 And I'm really worried about what's happening, because frankly, anywhere else in the world, in a democracy that's working,

01:04:48.420 a guy that's convicted, like Donald Trump was convicted, would be eliminated, he would have been eliminated just for being charged.

01:04:54.820 And the fact that he's able to just continue, get money, have his party on board, to me, that's scary.

01:05:01.900 Well, it made me kind of think back to the political reaction we did see,

01:05:04.560 a swift political reaction against the former President Bill Clinton for his, what would be, you know, an affair,

01:05:09.620 an affair that was consensual, and obviously paid a huge political price for that,

01:05:15.380 but just to kind of see the difference between the two kind of reactions right now.

01:05:19.100 Warren, just a last word to you, just your kind of takeaways from watching this kind of unfold south of the border this week.

01:05:24.220 I thought it was awesome, I was so, so happy.

01:05:28.340 I worked for Biden, I worked for Hillary, I was so happy.

01:05:33.360 But what guys like me think, and, you know, people who support the Democrats and work for them,

01:05:39.400 and mega-Republicans think, it doesn't matter.

01:05:43.220 It doesn't matter.

01:05:44.160 Everybody keeps trying to change the mind of mega-Republicans with appeals for decency.

01:05:49.300 It's a waste of breath.

01:05:50.980 All that matters in American politics is the middle, those independents, 0.99

01:05:56.040 that about a third of Americans who are either registered or self-declared independents.

01:06:00.760 They're the ones who decide who's going to be president of the United States.

01:06:04.460 And since the verdict was rendered, independents are drifting away from Donald Trump's option.

01:06:10.760 So anybody who says that it doesn't matter doesn't know what they're talking about,

01:06:14.840 because right now it does.

01:06:16.560 In a tight, tight race like this one is in some swing states,

01:06:20.700 independents are leaving the Donald Trump choice,

01:06:23.460 and they're moving towards Joe Biden.

01:06:25.380 That's good news for democracy.

01:06:27.040 And sentencing coming up in July, just a week before the Republican National Convention.

01:06:30.660 So we'll see how that kind of squares out politically as well.

01:06:33.460 But we'll leave it there for this week.

01:06:35.200 Carl, Warren, Tasha, thank you so much for your time.

01:06:37.100 I hope you have a great Sunday.

01:06:38.420 Thanks, guys.

01:06:39.000 Thank you, too. Bye.

01:06:40.060 Tasha Carradine is a political columnist for the National Post,

01:06:42.260 an author, a writer for GZERO Media.

01:06:44.220 Warren can tell as a strategist and post-media columnist.

01:06:46.440 You can read the latest from him in the Toronto Sun.

01:06:49.160 And Carl Belongi is the president at Traction Strategies.

01:06:51.480 What do you want of me?

01:07:06.920 What do you long from me?

01:07:10.840 A slim pixie, thin and forlorn 1.00

01:07:14.520 A count white and drawn

01:07:18.640 What do you make of me?

01:07:24.340 What can you take from me?

01:07:28.260 Pallet landscapes of my frown

01:07:31.660 That leave a goo up and down

01:07:35.680 For you I came to forsake 1.00

01:07:48.240 Lay white, despise and hate 0.96

01:07:52.460 I sing you my lamented songs 0.99

01:07:57.020 For you and your stimulations

01:08:00.680 Take what you can of me

01:08:05.060 Rip what you can of me 0.85

01:08:09.160 And this I'll say to you

01:08:13.540 And hope that it gets through 0.99

01:08:17.800 You worthless bits 1.00

01:08:20.500 You fickle shits 1.00

01:08:22.560 You will spit on me 1.00

01:08:24.560 You will make me spit 1.00

01:08:26.820 And when the Jew 0.99

01:08:28.760 Desire arrives

01:08:30.960 And like the Jesus Jews 1.00

01:08:32.880 You will pit of mines

01:08:35.160 I'll still be here

01:08:37.180 As strong as you

01:08:39.040 And I'll walk away

01:08:41.260 In spite of you

01:08:43.720 And I'll walk away

01:08:51.740 Walk away

01:08:55.820 Walk away

01:08:59.920 Walk away

01:09:04.180 Walk away

01:09:08.300 Walk away

01:09:13.240 Walk away

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01:09:50.480 Thank you.

KINSELLACAST 314： Yossi Klein Halevi from Israel, plus Kheiriddin and Belanger - and Buzzcocks, Bauhaus, Magazine, PIL

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