00:00:46.860So I thought about changing the podcast because Charles Adler and Brian Lilly and I all made predictions.
00:00:55.880But actually, we all predicted that he was going to leave.
00:00:58.940So I figured I'd leave the podcast alone.
00:01:02.600But boy, there sure have been a lot of developments in the past week.
00:01:06.340I think Kamala Harris, who I will be working for, I will be volunteering for, as I did for Joe, as I did for Hillary, when I'm in the States next month.
00:01:18.820Like, within 48 hours, $100 million in fundraising, locked up every endorsement she could get, locked up all the delegates she needed.
00:01:32.980And she's just doing an outstanding job.
00:01:38.140And meanwhile, the other side, you know, well, they're talking about childless cat ladies.
00:02:50.060But the Prime Minister of Israel wasn't running where he was this week, which was at a podium in Washington, D.C.
00:02:58.420Speaking to members of the U.S. Congress, he was bathing in the standing ovations that he got more than any other foreign leader has ever received.
00:12:13.840So what's important to understand is prior to this decision, Meta's existing policy did allow for the removal of the term Zionist when it was obviously connected to a Jew, right?
00:12:25.840Right in other forms or other symbols, but the analysis that cyber well provided made it very clear through examples on the platforms itself with that Facebook or Instagram, where this terminology was being used as a code word to promote classic anti-Semitic narratives.
00:12:43.720So cyber well provided the data and examples and recommendations to include dehumanization comparison comparison to pigs, recognition that the world, the classic anti-Semitic trope about world control or economic control can also be used to promote anti-Semitic conspiracy when using the term Zionist.
00:13:10.100So we welcome this decision by Meta, and we were very happy to see that the methodology of consistently monitoring these social media platforms and giving them guidance on their own policies and how they can better be enforced was used in this case.
00:13:25.620So which segments, which demographic segments was this, you know, dog whistle or sleight of hand Zionist to, in an anti-Semitic context, which segments was it working with most effectively?
00:13:40.340So we don't do demographic analysis yet on the content that we're collecting.
00:13:45.800We're looking primarily on the way that anti-Semitism is expressed in narratives and narrative trends and different conspiracy theories and memes.
00:13:53.440What I can tell you is that the root, the root, the historical root of using the term Zionist as a proxy to speak about Jews actually comes from as far back as the Soviet Union was a primary anti-Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda that they used after translating protocols of the elders of Zion and then kind of reappropriated the terminology and the conspiracy theories to actually attack Zionists.
00:14:20.240And we've seen both in online platforms and in our campuses that this has now become the end-vogue terminology to speak about Jews in order to promote Jew hatred.
00:14:34.660So, for example, you know, there was the atrocities of the 7th, and then we saw, you know, the surge, as you've told me about before, in anti-Semitic propaganda, using the Zionist term, in three days in Arabic afterwards, and then about 10 days later,
00:14:50.240starting to start starting to show up in English, were they using that at the outset as kind of the soft, blunt edge of their propaganda campaign, or was it something else?
00:14:59.060So I can tell you from CyberWell's use of different social listening tools that when we were tracking the term Zionist in the three months prior to the war, across social media platforms, there was maybe a 1.7 million use of the term Zionist with a potential reach of getting to roughly 500 million users.
00:15:20.600And then post-war, meaning after the October 7th attacks, this use of the term Zionist actually mushroomed into over 28 million views with a potential reach of 15.9 billion people.
00:15:36.880So when we look at the online space, this terminology, the use of the term Zionist, we can say, flooded social media platforms post-October 7th.
00:15:47.040And then the terminology, and this is really highlights the importance of recognizing why Zionist is the actual code word to speak about Jews today, Jews or Israelis was only used in about 17% of those results after October 7th.
00:16:04.420So the recognition by Meta and what we hope to see by other social media platforms of acknowledging that this is a term that is being abused as a code word to spread anti-Semitism in social media spaces and in digital spaces in general is extremely important.
00:16:20.960And CyberWell is dedicating our team to actually continuing our monitoring efforts and provide data to make sure these policies are implemented.
00:16:28.260So other platforms, so Meta has done the right thing, or at least indicated they're going to commence the process of doing the right thing.
00:16:36.940How have others reacted or have they solicited your input and your data on what they should be doing?
00:16:44.080So we've followed up with other social media platforms that we are working with that their policy is the same, meaning they would be treating Zionists in the same way.
00:16:52.760On the record, I can tell you that we've been reassured by TikTok that they are looking at this statement by Meta and that they intend to provide clarification to the public on it soon.
00:17:06.360Okay. And in terms of X, I mean, I really think at this point, genuinely, we all need to look at X and at Google and kind of say collectively as both the Jewish community, but also professionals who are fighting hate and anti-Semitism today.
00:17:25.280Anyway, this decision has been widely supported by all of the major Jewish organizations, by a coalition known as the IHRA coalition supporting this decision.
00:17:35.280The next clear move is to call on all social media platforms to actually recognize what is true, which is that Zionist is being used as a code word to spread anti-Semitism, to speak about Jews in hostile and violent ways.
00:17:49.780And we expect the digital policies that are in place to be applied equally to this form of hate too.
00:17:57.460You and I have talked about, so with respect to Google, I think you and I have talked previously about the degree to which YouTube videos were used some years ago for internal, but also external, not just propaganda, but also radicalization.
00:18:15.480So does Google remain a problem in that regard, not just with words like Zionist, but just generally their lack of attentiveness to the growth of the problem?
00:18:47.620We're looking specifically at the proliferation of anti-Semitic narratives online and how trust and safety policies can be better enforced on these social media platforms.
00:18:57.540But certainly I think that you're raising a wider compliance issue or a problem, which is how are big tech solutions and platforms that are being used by us every day, being used to also mobilize pro-terror activity and anti-Semitism in our Western democracies.
00:19:16.820And now there was just a big committee hearing on ways and means looking at tax exemption status for some 501c3s in the United States that are busy funding a lot of the very anti-Semitic illegal encampment movements in New York City and also on the U.S. campuses and creating clarity around that issue as well.
00:19:41.200So I think that the same type of transparency work, because when we talk about, you know, these movements, they are all relying on digital platforms for mobilization.
00:19:53.860So there's a larger compliance issue here, which is support for terror and mobilization of hate movements via these social media platforms and big tech companies.
00:20:05.660So forgive me, it's kind of a dumb question, but, you know, what I've been looking at is what happened online in and around the 7th.
00:20:20.680And, you know, these guys were live streaming atrocities to Telegram and other platforms.
00:20:31.160Would that not turn public opinion against them?
00:20:33.560I know that it did not with a lot of segments.
00:20:36.860I mean, has that been their practice from the outset for an internal audience or like, because it really seemed to be counterproductive, but it hasn't also particularly hurt them, has it?
00:20:47.300So it was a very, I say that the content that was flooding social media platforms was the largest hijacking of social media platforms by a terrorist organization that we have seen to date.
00:20:58.180In the sense that the terrorist organization, Hamas, abused the live stream features and social media, our favorite apps, to perpetuate their attack far beyond the point of time and space of the attack itself.
00:21:13.760And it really highlighted why social media compliance in general and social media reform and legislation is so vitally important right now.
00:21:25.440Now, every Western democracy that's under the threat of a terrorist organization attack or terrorist attack is under a double threat where there's no clear compliance regulation and reform around the way that social media platforms are abused by these terrorist organizations.
00:21:43.580By the way, after Hamas live streamed, the kidnapping and execution of people from their homes directly to their own Facebook accounts, the same exact methodology was used in Sudan when a jihadi group killed 800 Christians the following weekend.
00:22:03.120Because they learned from Hamas, right?
00:22:05.320So I actually think from a national security perspective, Western democracies are still struggling to understand what do I learn from this and how do I actually implement meaningful legal reform?
00:22:18.580And I think that technology is the key around how we would expect social media platforms not to become this digital sounding board for terrorist organizations that are attacking Western democracy.
00:22:31.000I think that AI and generative AI actually present a lot of solutions to this, but what's key and very crucially important is that the data, the violent data that flooded the social media platforms on October 7th and in the weeks following, including as it's connected to anti-Semitism, must be stored, made transparent and learned from actively with the platforms.
00:23:29.380So we know from history, and we know from, and not only the Holocaust, I want to say as an anti-Semitism professional, we know from the Soviet Union, the Communist Soviet Union, we know from the Holocaust, we know from the Spanish Inquisition, that anti-Semitism is one of the most destabilizing social conspiracy theories for any stable,
00:29:40.980She needs that place to go her way if she's to win the presidency.
00:29:46.440And like, man, she was a different person.
00:29:48.840Like she was, the crowd was on fire, but so was she.
00:29:52.440And she was just such a better speaker and communicator.
00:29:56.460And she had them in the palm of her hand in the way that Obama used to.
00:30:00.700Like, I feel like, you know, based upon all the available evidence, she's a real contender.
00:30:06.880So, Warren, I know that you believe that it's all over for Justin and we can talk about that.
00:30:12.440But I want to bring Justin Trudeau in here as an example.
00:30:15.740When Justin Trudeau rocketed to pop culture icon status, did it really matter that the liberals had this tiny caucus and they were number three and all the stale press gallery types were saying, well, you know, Thomas Mulcair has been really impressive and questioned, period.
00:30:38.360And Thomas Mulcair is blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:30:41.240And, you know, I sat there thinking, do these people not live in the show business culture at all?
00:30:47.180Do they not realize that this guy, Justin Trudeau, is larger than Thomas Mulcair, larger than Harper, larger than politics?
00:30:56.840And then when you, when you're, when you're a pop culture icon, politics doesn't matter.
00:31:02.800You're going to win because many people who will be coming to you are people who don't give a fig about politics.
00:31:10.420They just know they want you as the leader.
00:31:16.880But my take on Trudeau is, you know, he, like it's still 20 points this week and like nothing seems to be working.
00:31:24.580Yeah, no, I understand, but I'm comparing Trudeau of a decade ago, okay, to Kamala Harris now.
00:31:31.380What I'm, what I'm saying is that when, when, when you become a pop culture icon, you're larger than all the stuff that most pundits talk about, that the headlines generally talk about.
00:31:41.320Because you, once you become, once you transcend politics and you're the shiny new thing, who knows how far you'll go.
00:31:49.540But we do know that you're going to go a lot, lot farther than what politics is generally, which is something you talk about once in a while, you know, show business for ugly people.
00:34:30.820But I think he's indelibly tattooed with that.
00:34:33.880And I'm just waiting for Taylor Swift, who, by the way, is a childless cat lady to come out and say, you know what, girls, let's teach this guy a lesson.
00:34:41.780Like it was a huge mistake, wasn't it?
00:34:44.460Well, even in the cleanup, you know, the guy, uh, the guy's got to rent a better Zamboni because even in the cleanup, he said that people who are childless should pay higher taxes than people with children.
00:36:10.540If, uh, she gets Arizona, that would be a good thing for her.
00:36:13.780Uh, Pennsylvania has nearly double, uh, the electoral college points, 19.
00:36:18.240And Shapiro is the, uh, the governor there now, I don't want to get too deep into the weeds of unfavorables and favorables, but how many people do you know in politics?
00:36:57.360Uh, Governor Shapiro is a favorable numbers are at 62 points.
00:37:01.160One thing that's concerning, and I'll, I'll bring this right to the doorstep where you live these days.
00:37:06.800Uh, it's being said, and even Josh King, who happens to be a, uh, Jonathan King, who happens to be a converted Jew.
00:37:13.480He was, uh, once married to Dana Bash.
00:37:16.060Uh, he said that one reason why Shapiro wouldn't be picked is because he's Jewish and he's referencing, of course, the, uh, the current left of center, anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, all that anti, anti-stuff.
00:37:30.820And he thinks that is one key reason why Josh Shapiro may not be on the ticket with, with Harris.
00:37:38.340I don't know if I believe that, you know, I think back 24 years ago and Al Gore, you know, had Lieberman as his VP.
00:38:01.140The conflict in the middle East, which is about to get worse.
00:38:04.100And we're about to talk about that in a minute, um, has an impact on young people, but I can't see young people going to the Republican option.
00:38:12.560They'll probably just stay at home and, you know, spoil their ballots.
00:38:16.040So, you know, having a Jew, like a proud practicing Jew, I don't see a problem because, uh, Ms. Harris, who we were just talking about a minute ago, she's married to a practicing Jew.
00:38:26.440She's been to Israel more times than he has.
00:38:29.080They've got a mezuzah on their house, the house of the vice president.
00:38:32.340And he has said this week that they're going to put a mezuzah on the white house doorframe if they get there.
00:38:37.520So like, I, I don't see with normal people, with decent people, I just don't see it as an issue.
00:38:43.600Well, uh, last, last I heard, uh, Pennsylvania is not a Jewish state.
00:38:47.960It's just an American state or technically a commonwealth, the commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
00:38:52.400And if Shapiro is that popular in Pennsylvania, it can't be because he's Jewish.
00:38:57.400Because I've got to tell you, um, yeah, Philadelphia has some, some Jewish component, the Philadelphia area for sure.
00:39:04.100But once you get west of Pittsburgh, you're in Alabama.
00:39:08.820So I just, I just, I just don't see, uh, Pennsylvania is that popular for, for Shapiro, the, the Jewish issue, uh, being an issue.
00:39:16.500And I still believe that while many people in the United States and elsewhere, and maybe even behind this microphone, have problems with Netanyahu.
00:39:26.300Most people don't think that Netanyahu represents the overwhelming majority of Jews in, in Israel or the U.S. or Canada.
00:39:38.560And I, I just, I just don't see this, uh, Israel Palestinian thing being large enough to prevent the guy like Shapiro from advancing.
00:39:46.820If, if, if Kamala Harris thinks that, uh, you know, he's the ticket, I would say that putting Pennsylvania in the column, agree or disagree with me on this.
00:40:40.740Those children were murdered on a soccer pitch on Saturday night before he left, before that terrible event happened.
00:40:47.760She expressed concern about the loss of life, civilian loss of life in Gaza, and he seemed to receive her comments with equanimity, as I think every Israeli prime minister has.
00:41:01.540Do you feel, Charles Adler, like we are heading into a war, not just against Hezbollah, but against Lebanon as well?
00:41:09.700Well, a war against Hezbollah, much like a war against Hamas, is a war against Iran.
00:41:15.960Uh, but this, this would be a larger war because Hezbollah simply has teeth that are far sharper than, than Hamas is.
00:41:24.720Uh, Hezbollah has thousands of rockets and not, not just some of the small rockets that, uh, Hamas, uh, generally fires.
00:41:35.840And, uh, agree with me or not, uh, I think Iran really is spoiling, uh, for this war with, with Israel.
00:41:44.840And I think that, uh, this one will be more serious in terms of causing, uh, Israel, a military problem.
00:41:54.020Hezbollah is simply militarily, uh, much more of a force than, than, than, than, uh, than, uh, Hamas.
00:42:02.220And I would remind you that Hezbollah was a significant force in Syria.
00:42:09.120And the only reason that, uh, the butcher of Damascus, Bashar al-Assad, is still on the throne in Syria is because of the help he got from Hezbollah.
00:42:20.060So, so would you advise Netanyahu and his cabinet, his war cabinet, to look the other way on what happened or a low range retaliation?
00:42:31.040What would you advise them to do about what happened on Saturday?
00:42:36.060And, uh, I always advise a retaliation when you're, when you're hit, especially when you're hit hard as, as they were.
00:42:41.760They certainly retaliated after Iran sent all those drones and rockets into Israel.
00:42:47.160Uh, the Israelis and the Americans were able to fend it off, but Israel responded.
00:42:52.180Uh, but it was very, very clear that Israel could have, could have done a much more general response.
00:42:59.320Israel could also have delivered a much more general response to what happened yesterday.
00:43:02.880I don't, I don't see Netanyahu being reckless enough, uh, to start a war in Lebanon because, uh, so many Israelis would die that it would be impossible for Netanyahu to, to hang on.
00:43:17.640I'm not, uh, accusing Netanyahu of being a humanitarian.
00:43:20.440I'm not, uh, I think he's a person who's out for his, to save his own skin.
00:43:25.920He will not save his skin if he starts a war with Lebanon.