kinsellacast - October 19, 2025


KINSELLACAST 384: Carney has a thin skin, and Lilley, Mulroney, Znaimer and my guest don't! Plus: GBV, Militarie Gun, and lots more!


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 16 minutes

Words per Minute

142.42986

Word Count

10,873

Sentence Count

633

Misogynist Sentences

10

Hate Speech Sentences

18


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 it's the Kinsella cast starring
00:00:07.680 Warren Kinsella
00:00:19.000 hey it's Warren welcome to
00:00:21.040 Kinsella cast I'm up the cabin
00:00:22.880 with the dogs and pro tip
00:00:24.120 everybody when you're trying
00:00:25.240 to record a podcast don't do
00:00:28.400 it with a couple big labs and
00:00:29.980 the same room it doesn't work
00:00:31.760 out anyway hopefully this
00:00:34.520 podcast will work out for you
00:00:36.540 and for me because I've got
00:00:38.440 some great stuff in it along
00:00:39.560 with Brian Milley and Ben
00:00:40.880 Moroney and Chris Chapin and
00:00:42.420 Libby Snymer and a very
00:00:43.740 courageous member of the
00:00:45.600 CUPE union I've got some
00:00:48.140 amazing music I've got Lucy's
00:00:52.240 World which is from Guided by
00:00:55.840 Voices and Guided by Voices I
00:00:57.440 love and I've loved them since
00:00:58.760 my brother introduced me to
00:01:00.600 them in 1996 in Vancouver and
00:01:04.680 like he's a school teacher and
00:01:06.340 he writes these songs that are
00:01:07.820 Beatle-esque in their genius I'm
00:01:10.000 not exaggerating Lucy's World this
00:01:12.900 tune is the third one he's had
00:01:14.880 with the word Lucy in the title
00:01:16.820 and it's off of their new album
00:01:19.100 which is coming out at Halloween
00:01:20.640 called Thick Rich and Delicious
00:01:22.760 which is kind of like my hair and I
00:01:25.060 just love it and I think you'll love
00:01:26.420 it too also military gun I love
00:01:28.560 fill me up with paint it's from
00:01:31.840 their new album God Save the Gun
00:01:33.600 they are on tour in March with
00:01:36.140 Joyce Manor and Teen Mortgage and
00:01:38.620 Combat all of which I played before
00:01:40.500 I've never seen Joyce Manor before
00:01:41.920 so I'm pretty stoked and like if I
00:01:44.360 die the day after this gig I will die
00:01:46.760 happy I've got Felix Tandem from
00:01:49.720 Nashville Brian and I talked about
00:01:51.720 buying American and trade deals with
00:01:53.380 Americans so I thought this was
00:01:54.720 appropriate and also because I was in
00:01:57.000 Trenton this week and looking for
00:01:59.320 red grapes for E and a couple older
00:02:02.500 women were near me also looking at the
00:02:04.080 red grapes and they said nope not gonna
00:02:05.720 buy them they're from America I was
00:02:07.420 like good on you gals so this song is
00:02:11.540 it's kind of fun and wacky and weird
00:02:13.620 and I think you'll like it Hanny Day not
00:02:17.380 weird but different singer-songwriter
00:02:20.400 emerging indie artists from Melbourne
00:02:22.600 and her song also with the word Lucy
00:02:27.620 in the title Lucy in London and then I
00:02:30.140 end with the Sprints who I played
00:02:31.500 before and the Meat Bodies who I
00:02:32.880 haven't and this is just great agro
00:02:35.460 punk rock to get you going Sprints are
00:02:38.100 Irish the Meat Bodies are psychedelic
00:02:40.380 punk band from LA and they will
00:02:41.940 influence you to drive faster speaking
00:02:44.820 of influence no who who said this know
00:02:49.120 the star you are and see yourself as
00:02:51.640 part of a galaxy well that was the
00:02:54.160 mother of all influencers the hashtag
00:02:56.380 highness the rich stick in stick insect
00:02:59.160 Paris Hilton Paris and I actually met
00:03:02.380 Paris at a Super Bowl party in Texas
00:03:05.380 once full disclosure and she couldn't
00:03:07.780 put together two words without a team
00:03:09.320 of ghostwriters but she's right and so
00:03:12.320 says a new report this influencers at
00:03:15.160 least in Canada at least in respect to
00:03:17.080 politics are the new galactic stars as
00:03:20.360 she puts it and a report written by
00:03:22.820 various tall foreheads shows that that
00:03:25.500 is true the report spent 80 pages had
00:03:28.940 many big words in it was authored by the
00:03:30.860 Canadian Digital Media Research Network
00:03:32.920 helped out by people at McGill and U of
00:03:34.940 T and basically its main conclusion is
00:03:38.400 this influencers had a bigger impact on
00:03:41.800 the 2025 federal general election than
00:03:44.920 the mainstream media and the politicians
00:03:47.080 and political parties put together like
00:03:50.940 way more the report found that it was
00:03:55.520 just amazing that influencers produced
00:03:57.980 half 47 percent of the political content
00:04:02.000 that pinged around the internet during the
00:04:03.560 election and news organizations only had
00:04:06.060 28 percent politicians 18 percent like
00:04:10.320 ouch now way back when dinosaurs were on
00:04:13.120 the earth and when Stockwell Day allegedly
00:04:15.040 interacted with them the mainstream media
00:04:17.320 dominated the discourse and so did
00:04:19.380 politicians and political parties who
00:04:21.740 spent truckloads of money on ads but not
00:04:24.780 so much anymore influencers are defined by
00:04:29.040 the reports reports authors as quote an
00:04:31.960 individual with the ability to shape
00:04:34.180 opinions behaviors or consumption patterns
00:04:36.800 of online audiences through their social
00:04:39.460 media presence end quote now not everybody
00:04:42.480 made the cut you had they looked at 4,000
00:04:45.500 influencers and you needed to have at least
00:04:48.060 10,000 followers in TikTok or Twitter and at
00:04:51.240 least 5,000 followers on Facebook or
00:04:53.340 Instagram or YouTube or Blue Sky and it had
00:04:56.180 majority of the content had to be political
00:04:58.400 so they looked at 1.52 million posts it's a
00:05:02.540 lot now they may wear buzz light year jammies
00:05:06.500 all day and eat Costco cheese balls and
00:05:09.220 drink fizzy pop and live in mom's basement
00:05:11.440 but these influencers who are typically found
00:05:14.400 on the right side of the spectrum have big
00:05:17.440 clout said the center online political
00:05:20.700 engagement surged during the election
00:05:22.380 period with interactions around election
00:05:25.020 related content rising by nearly half compared
00:05:29.280 to the previous year some platforms were
00:05:32.400 more equal than others the port said the
00:05:35.380 TikTok became a powerful amplifier
00:05:37.580 Instagram provided politicians with a
00:05:40.600 weight for visibility and interaction and
00:05:44.540 X however was the dominant hub for
00:05:47.480 influencers and they played a big big role
00:05:50.120 in shaping its narratives and the most
00:05:52.680 influencer activity took place on X so why
00:05:57.000 has all this happened well there's a bunch
00:05:58.480 of reasons says the report Meta which is
00:06:01.000 Facebook and Instagram had a tantrum about
00:06:03.660 a well-intentioned Canadian law and started
00:06:06.200 censoring news stories in 2023 fewer Canadians
00:06:10.320 were getting political information in
00:06:11.880 traditional ways and on Twitter and X must
00:06:15.080 took over and pull pushed out a lot of
00:06:18.140 self-described progressive voices and
00:06:21.000 influencers particularly conservative ones
00:06:23.340 surged in importance so anyway influencers
00:06:26.820 maintain their spots on as crucial political
00:06:29.860 players says the report and they'd shape
00:06:32.220 opinion and drive the direction of the
00:06:34.400 political conversation now with great power
00:06:37.520 comes great responsibility as Spider-Man
00:06:40.340 reminds us and the reporters sniffed the that
00:06:44.060 the reports authors sniffed they may be
00:06:47.780 reporters who knows that influencers needed to
00:06:50.980 embrace their democratic responsibility
00:06:52.900 whatever the hell that is so they had a bunch
00:06:55.620 of demands they needed to show responsible
00:06:58.500 digital behavior critically evaluate information
00:07:02.320 and encourage respectful civic dialogue clearly
00:07:06.120 they've never been on Twitter before they needed
00:07:07.940 to disclose clearly when something has been
00:07:11.780 sponsored or paid for and that's fair and
00:07:15.940 that's right I can tell you nobody's paid for any
00:07:19.240 of this verify information before popping off
00:07:23.340 refrain from sharing or speculating when
00:07:26.420 accuracy is uncertain that's crazy speculation
00:07:29.660 is what everybody influencers and reporters and
00:07:33.160 politicians have always done and will always
00:07:35.480 do so forget about that one avoid amplifying
00:07:38.280 outrage driven or sensational sensationalistic
00:07:41.160 narratives like again have these guys ever
00:07:44.320 looked at a newspaper column or social media like
00:07:47.640 outrage and sensationalism like that's our stock
00:07:50.600 and trade it's never going away anyway at this
00:07:53.800 point in my rant you may be asking yourself which
00:07:56.160 influencers had the most influence who to use
00:08:00.460 the reports own words were the most prominent
00:08:03.120 Canadian influencers central to the network it's
00:08:07.600 an excellent question and the graphic that I've
00:08:10.380 attached to my post gives you their answer so the
00:08:14.740 lineup for selfies and autographs it now forms to
00:08:17.500 the left please have your credit cards ready
00:08:20.020 you
00:08:32.140 you
00:08:36.080 you
00:08:46.140 Thank you.
00:09:16.140 Change your mind, and all the time, close your eyes to dotted lines, and watch out for optical illusions.
00:09:29.140 From Lucy's world of names and brains that keep me confused, remains the same.
00:09:47.260 Lucy's world where steel traps rust, the spider webs connecting dust, can change your mind, and all the time, close your eyes to dotted lines, and watch out for optical illusions.
00:10:09.260 Change your mind, and all the time, close your eyes to dotted lines, and watch out for optical illusions.
00:10:27.260 And we're back.
00:10:54.640 We're back with Brian Lilly, and Brian is with his loved ones somewhere in Yorkville, hanging out with movie stars.
00:11:03.200 Well, no, not movie stars.
00:11:04.700 I'm sitting on a metal stool at a rickety table.
00:11:08.280 So, yeah, I'm in Bougie Yorkville at Coco.
00:11:12.480 Favorite coffee shop.
00:11:14.180 Me too.
00:11:14.880 Me too.
00:11:15.380 I didn't know it was your favorite.
00:11:16.560 It's mine too.
00:11:17.500 That's where I hang out.
00:11:18.320 Great little Italian, family-run Italian coffee shop, some of the best coffee in Toronto.
00:11:25.520 And it's nice to be back in the city.
00:11:27.560 It was a beautiful weekend in Quebec City.
00:11:30.240 Always forget how gorgeous that place is, but it's good to be back home.
00:11:34.300 And you were in Banff too.
00:11:35.540 Tell me a little bit about Banff.
00:11:37.380 No, so the Banff Forum was in Quebec City this year, and it's a gathering.
00:11:41.420 Oh, I thought you were in Banff.
00:11:42.700 Okay, I got confused.
00:11:43.600 Yeah, no, they alternate between Banff and different cities.
00:11:47.200 So, one year it's in Banff, then they move to another city, and then back and forth.
00:11:50.680 And it's an off-the-record Chatham House rules type thing where interesting people are brought together to talk and debate.
00:11:58.400 And you listen to different ideas, and you meet different people.
00:12:02.700 And so, that was interesting.
00:12:05.300 I was speaking on a panel with some pretty smart folks about the cross-border trade issue and stuff you and I talk about all the time, about what do we have to do to fix it.
00:12:16.000 So, yeah, it was an interesting weekend in Quebec City.
00:12:18.960 It's just stunning.
00:12:20.600 I had French black pudding for the first time in a French restaurant.
00:12:23.860 I mean, that was a breakfast staple in my house growing up.
00:12:26.960 If you know what that is, you'll either like it or be disgusted.
00:12:30.820 My parents ate it, and it was just not one of my favorites, but they loved it.
00:12:36.180 They absolutely loved it.
00:12:37.840 So, what did people say to you?
00:12:39.360 Were they saying, what are you doing here, you terrible conservative, or were they nice?
00:12:45.740 Oh, no, no.
00:12:46.380 People were nice.
00:12:47.480 It was great.
00:12:48.840 You know, I was surprised to be invited, but they really do try.
00:12:53.320 And, you know, I have people across the board.
00:12:58.980 And, you know, one gent who said he advocated for me to be there came over and told me that all my writing drives him crazy, but he finds me interesting and said, you're a voice that needed to be heard here.
00:13:11.540 You know, very much a former liberal staffer type guy.
00:13:15.940 Hmm, there you go.
00:13:17.880 Well, that's good.
00:13:18.840 Well, a lot of former liberal staffers and present ones anonymously in a massive piece that Stephen Marr, formerly of the Chronicle Herald and a million other places, he's got in the new Maclean's.
00:13:32.840 And, yes, Maclean's is still around.
00:13:34.820 And, yes, people should read this piece.
00:13:36.880 The one thing that I came away with after reading this thing was, man, Mark Carney is more of a thin-skinned egomaniac than I thought he was.
00:13:50.320 Like, it's not a flattering portrait, is it?
00:13:54.240 What stunned me was that he wears pants without belt loops.
00:13:59.460 Mark clearly did a lot of digging in this, as he often does.
00:14:02.680 You know, Marr and I have shared an office in the past in the hot room.
00:14:07.920 We've shared barbs.
00:14:08.960 We've been friendly with each other.
00:14:10.540 He was on my podcast about his book on Trudeau.
00:14:14.020 But he's really good at long form looking at a person in their character.
00:14:20.460 And one of the nuggets he brought out was that Carney wears Seville row suits, which are very expensive.
00:14:25.120 But he wears the even higher-end ones that are so meticulously tailored to your body that you don't need belts.
00:14:33.380 And, therefore, your pants don't need belt loops.
00:14:36.240 Even when I was skinny, which I will not pretend to be at the moment, my pants needed belt loops.
00:14:42.620 But I've never been as wealthy as Mark Carney.
00:14:44.480 But, yeah, you know, there were a couple of points where, you know, he recounted the Rosemary look inside yourself thing, which showed to a lot of people, ooh, doesn't like to be questioned.
00:14:57.040 I already knew that because, you know, he was used to dealing with the business press, which is very deferential when you're a bank governor or an executive.
00:15:05.460 It's a very different relationship.
00:15:08.600 And he bristled early on at the aggressive style.
00:15:14.420 And I know, you know, some listeners might say, oh, the media is never aggressive towards liberals.
00:15:18.800 No, they can be.
00:15:19.800 I've been there.
00:15:21.580 And sometimes it's just following up to get clarification.
00:15:25.340 And he would bristle and not like it.
00:15:27.280 It's like, I've told you enough.
00:15:28.820 That's it.
00:15:29.760 And so these moments would come out.
00:15:31.600 And one of the parts that jumped out at me was a staffer saying that not only does he think he's the smartest person in the room, which he very well may be.
00:15:42.060 He's a very smart guy.
00:15:44.180 Stephen Harper is like that.
00:15:46.380 But Stephen Harper treats people a bit differently.
00:15:49.800 Neither one of them suffer fools gladly.
00:15:52.360 But this staffer said he thinks he's the smartest person in the room and doesn't see value in what others around the room would tell him.
00:15:59.080 So, you know, he's got to fix that if he wants to stay in politics and be successful.
00:16:04.500 Harper, as I said, smartest person in the room, but sought advice from other smart people.
00:16:09.620 And you need that in politics because everyone has blind spots.
00:16:14.300 And there's a piece, one of the few people who's on the record in the piece is Supriya, who I've known for a long time, you've known for a long time.
00:16:23.440 She was a commentator and a pundit and radio person in Toronto.
00:16:27.680 And then she went up to work for Trudeau.
00:16:29.780 A lot of us felt she drank the Kool-Aid.
00:16:32.600 But anyway, she's expelled that from her body and is quite critical of Carney.
00:16:38.380 And the point she makes is that when the dam breaks, all the negative stuff is going to have a big impact.
00:16:47.060 When people, some of this personality stuff and a lot of the policy stuff has an impact on Carney's popularity.
00:16:55.140 What do you think about that?
00:16:57.400 Well, you know, her comments are in line with the watch who's asked you to kick on the way up because you may have to kiss it on your way down.
00:17:03.800 And eventually you'll need, you will need support from people.
00:17:10.960 You know, some interesting conversations with former politicians that I can't get into from the weekend because of the agreement.
00:17:17.220 But about how people turn on you and how things happen and how different events have gone down.
00:17:24.120 Yeah, you know, even the most successful politician will be there.
00:17:28.240 But it's weird.
00:17:30.000 This is a story that I've heard multiple times going back months and I've alluded to in the past and heard it again this weekend.
00:17:37.780 Is that Mark Carney doesn't seem to have control over his caucus.
00:17:46.160 It's bizarre.
00:17:47.140 So juxtapose the dismissive waving off of Melanie Jolie, the video that we all saw a few months ago that Mar talks about.
00:17:54.900 And the stories that we've heard, you know, senior staffer walks in to hand Carney a briefing note.
00:18:00.680 He looks up or actually didn't even look up, just said, what's in it?
00:18:04.700 And they said, I haven't read it, sir.
00:18:06.880 Why are you giving it to me then?
00:18:08.380 Get out.
00:18:09.860 That sort of thing.
00:18:11.680 Versus, you know, he was in a meeting with oil and gas executives back in the spring.
00:18:17.200 And he listens politely to what they have to say.
00:18:20.500 And this is what we hear about is meetings with business people, with stakeholders, with premiers, is that he's listening and he's humble.
00:18:27.620 But apparently not with his own staff.
00:18:30.400 This is why the others appreciate him.
00:18:33.300 But he's in this business meeting with oil execs.
00:18:36.340 And they're explaining to him why that he needs to do certain things, like lift the emissions cap or the tanker ban or what they need, you know, regarding pipelines.
00:18:45.140 And he just said, well, that's great.
00:18:46.800 But remember, I have a caucus and a cabinet to manage.
00:18:51.680 He's like, well, no, no.
00:18:53.260 All of those people are only there because of you.
00:18:56.380 They'd be unemployed without you.
00:18:57.700 You should be moving.
00:18:59.740 And he apparently doesn't seem to get that.
00:19:01.780 So he's an odd duck politically.
00:19:06.040 Well, who knows?
00:19:07.240 Maybe it'll come back and bite him.
00:19:08.480 Maybe it won't.
00:19:09.560 On the weekend in the United States, down south, kind of a different reflection of the same issue, hubris and ego and politicians.
00:19:21.020 So across the United States, including in a couple of places in Canada, there was these no kings rallies, which is part of democracy.
00:19:28.400 They got together to object to Donald Trump.
00:19:31.020 I didn't find that remarkable.
00:19:32.500 I was actually surprised it's taken this long.
00:19:35.400 What struck me is how he responded.
00:19:38.660 He leaned into it and, you know, put up AI videos of himself dressed as a king and literally had shit falling from the heavens onto their rallies.
00:19:50.320 And, you know, planes dropping things on them.
00:19:54.700 Like, it was just like, like, even for him, it was it seemed like it was too much.
00:19:59.800 But it doesn't seem to be hurting him that much in the United States, is it?
00:20:03.320 No, it doesn't.
00:20:06.760 Let me just say, first off, to the Canadian people showing up at no kings protests, you're morons.
00:20:12.820 We have a king.
00:20:14.860 Quite literally, a king.
00:20:16.340 For folks in the United States, look, it's my same advice as when people were freaking out about Trudeau.
00:20:24.260 Countries survive their politicians.
00:20:26.400 That's why I don't get all, you know, exercised about things.
00:20:31.480 It's like they're in.
00:20:32.480 You've got to deal with them.
00:20:34.080 You know, we all survive our politicians.
00:20:36.340 But how's Trump's approval rating?
00:20:37.620 Well, the real clear politics average says 45.4% approve of him, 51.6% disapprove.
00:20:46.300 It's a 6.2% negative spread.
00:20:48.940 And if you don't follow presidential approval ratings, you think, oh, that's horrible.
00:20:52.780 It's actually pretty good compared to where he was in his first term, where Obama was in his second term.
00:20:59.360 Because when you start to be unpopular, you're down in the 35s, 37s, 38 would be a good poll for you if people are really not liking you.
00:21:10.620 This is standard fair on approval rating.
00:21:12.740 So it's not hurting him politically yet.
00:21:17.080 The whole redistricting thing could turn around and bite him in the ass, depending on how that plays out.
00:21:22.420 But a lot of the other stuff that he's doing, I think he is getting some broad support from Americans, especially on crime.
00:21:34.040 And, you know, even on CNN, I'll see Streeters, where they're sending the military in to back up the police and dealing with crime.
00:21:41.820 And, you know, they're interviewing the people in the crime-ridden neighborhoods, and they're saying, well, thank you.
00:21:47.000 Because it was really shitty here before.
00:21:49.160 But the redistricting, people will look at, you know, so they might look at that and say, well, you're fixing crime.
00:21:56.880 But the redistricting, they might say, okay, you're helping yourself.
00:22:00.600 We'll have to wait and see how that plays out.
00:22:02.720 I'm not copping out on it.
00:22:03.920 It's just, that's the type of thing that goes on a slow boil, and you'll find out in a few months.
00:22:09.900 There's just a final point on this fascinating quote I heard on the weekend by a journalist who spent time with him and interviewed him.
00:22:19.160 And she said, you know, and she framed it as a criticism of the left, the progressives.
00:22:25.700 She said, you know, his own people take him seriously, but they don't take him literally.
00:22:33.420 And she said people on the left, the progressives, take him literally, but they don't take him seriously.
00:22:40.500 And I thought that was a brilliant way of expressing it.
00:22:43.020 Explains an awful lot of what's going on there.
00:22:44.860 Like, he leans into social media memes more than anybody else and trolls them.
00:22:51.340 Like, posting the videos of him with a crown on his head.
00:22:54.460 It's clearly trolling.
00:22:55.840 Yeah, it's trolling.
00:22:56.860 Like, he's making fun of the idea.
00:22:59.700 I mean, he knows he's not the king.
00:23:01.080 Yeah, so, you know, people, you know, criticize someone for what they're doing, not what you imagine they're doing.
00:23:11.600 And that was the advice I had for people who were freaking out about Trudeau and still are people that are freaking out about digital ID.
00:23:18.080 Look at what the reality is, not what your boogeyman, you know, is telling you.
00:23:25.040 And focus on the reality.
00:23:27.100 You'll have much better results.
00:23:29.440 I just want to throw this in, and it's something that came out of the conversations on the weekend that I hadn't thought about.
00:23:34.920 And that is that we don't have a deal with the U.S. to lift the tariffs, although perhaps there's something coming on automotive that was leaked out to Bloomberg the other day, perhaps.
00:23:48.420 But we better get something soon, because next year is the midterms.
00:23:53.620 And guess what?
00:23:54.860 Free trade is never popular with either party in the midterms.
00:23:58.560 So don't expect getting a good deal with Canada to be something that either party fights for.
00:24:03.900 In fact, they'll both be fighting to screw Canada during the midterms while we're in this NAFTA renegotiation.
00:24:11.120 And so we could become cannon fodder.
00:24:14.180 And I don't think that – well, I've never thought – you've heard this from me – protectionism is not a Republican issue.
00:24:20.960 It used to be a Democrat issue.
00:24:22.580 Now it's a both parties issue.
00:24:24.060 And it's scary dealing with some of this and, you know, heading into a midterm, we could really be pumped.
00:24:32.880 So something else that's scary to conclude with is the ceasefire has been broken by Hamas in Gaza.
00:24:41.040 They opened fire on the IDF.
00:24:42.780 They're murdering innocent Palestinians in the streets and proudly videotaping it.
00:24:48.080 And from the ceasefire now crowd, of course, we're hearing fuck all.
00:24:53.380 Any protests on behalf of those Palestinians are being murdered.
00:24:57.480 Not a surprise to you or to me.
00:25:00.420 You and I talked about this last week and the week before that we thought that the ceasefire probably would not hold.
00:25:07.740 That now seems to sadly be coming true.
00:25:10.540 Where do you see that story going in the next seven days?
00:25:13.720 Well, I'll correct you.
00:25:16.960 The ceasefire now people have been vocal and they've been claiming that Israel is violating the ceasefire all over the place.
00:25:27.280 So, look, this is one of the things where I end up liking what Trump says because in response to Hamas' executions, public executions, he posted on social media,
00:25:40.040 if Hamas continues to kill people in Gaza, which was not part of the deal, we will have no choice but to go in and kill them.
00:25:46.680 Thank you for your attention in this matter.
00:25:49.940 He's just very blunt.
00:25:51.160 You're not going to keep doing this killing.
00:25:52.940 This was not part of the deal.
00:25:54.140 And if you do it, we'll take care of you.
00:25:55.840 The question is, Kenny, you know, you and I have both been to Israel in the past year and a half or so.
00:26:03.760 We've seen Israel's got, if not the, but one of the most effective militaries in the world.
00:26:11.560 If they haven't been able to wipe out Hamas, and we're being honest with ourselves, we have to admit they've not wiped out Hamas.
00:26:18.400 I'm not sure what Trump and his armed forces think they can do.
00:26:24.040 You know, I think it's like fighting the land war in Asia, right?
00:26:28.380 It's, I think there's always going to be a vestige of Hamas left over.
00:26:33.960 Yeah.
00:26:34.580 And, you know, it's just a question of managing them and trying to keep people in Palestine and Gaza safe.
00:26:43.460 But I just don't know how to do that.
00:26:45.340 Easier said than done.
00:26:47.020 It is.
00:26:48.400 But I do appreciate that, you know, it's not a red line that he's just going to allow to continue to be crossed.
00:26:54.420 It doesn't appear to be.
00:26:55.820 The VA is saying there's consequences if you continue.
00:26:58.880 And that seemed to work with Hamas before because they believe that he will act or will allow Netanyahu to act.
00:27:06.900 So, look, as we said from the beginning, Hamas is the weak link in all of this.
00:27:12.740 And we have to hope that folks manage it the best they can.
00:27:16.300 Yeah.
00:27:17.020 Hear, hear.
00:27:17.460 Well, listen, man.
00:27:18.680 So sorry to intrude on your bougie Yorkville sojourn.
00:27:23.800 I hope the three of you have a wonderful day.
00:27:26.280 Hopefully it's nice there.
00:27:27.260 I'm up at the cabin with the dogs.
00:27:29.160 And it's pretty nice here.
00:27:30.960 So enjoy the day.
00:27:33.100 Enjoy the week.
00:27:33.760 Thank you, sir.
00:27:34.320 Thank you.
00:27:35.320 Thank you.
00:27:35.420 Thank you.
00:27:47.440 Fill me up with pain
00:28:01.980 To make me insane
00:28:06.920 Cause if you like what it leaves
00:28:10.080 Put it on display
00:28:11.480 I can be what you want
00:28:13.500 Till you throw me away
00:28:15.900 And I'll burn
00:28:18.940 Just a touch
00:28:21.940 Slowly shifting away
00:28:27.400 Never enough
00:28:29.920 Fill me up with smoke
00:28:34.160 I'll go, go, till you're ready to go
00:28:38.820 Cause there's rarely a point
00:28:41.900 To things I've done
00:28:43.900 So fill my head on
00:28:45.980 Give you what you want
00:28:47.940 And I'll burn
00:28:49.940 Just a touch
00:28:53.940 Slowly shifting away
00:28:58.940 Never enough
00:29:01.940 And I'll have desperation
00:29:05.980 Trying to duplicate it
00:29:11.980 And if I'm not what you want
00:29:14.900 Then I'm not what you wanted
00:29:18.980 And if I'm not what you wanted
00:29:33.020 Then I'm not what you wanted
00:29:37.020 Duplicating
00:29:39.060 And if I'm not what you wanted
00:29:43.060 Then I'm not what you wanted
00:29:47.060 And I'll burn
00:29:50.060 Just a touch
00:29:54.060 Slowly shifting away
00:29:59.060 Never enough
00:30:01.060 No
00:30:17.100 Don't bank on banks
00:30:19.100 You bank your buck
00:30:20.100 Those fat cats couldn't give a whine
00:30:23.100 So long as their buckets are stopped
00:30:26.100 They think that we should just shut up
00:30:28.140 They think that we should just shut up
00:30:30.140 It started 1492
00:30:32.140 Columbus held the ocean blue
00:30:35.140 Did things he wasn't supposed to do
00:30:38.140 I guess he's just like me and you
00:30:41.140 Zombie face melting
00:30:44.140 Over-toed shoes
00:30:46.140 Lions on airplanes
00:30:47.140 Playing the blues for a buck
00:30:49.140 The crap roars
00:30:50.180 The joke gets lost on them
00:30:52.180 That's what you get
00:30:53.180 For buying American
00:31:09.180 I'm sick of lyrical cliches
00:31:11.180 Give me some layers like parfait
00:31:14.180 Tie the nut like it's macromée
00:31:17.180 Unwind me like a divorce
00:31:19.220 Zombie face melting
00:31:23.220 Over-toed shoes
00:31:25.220 Lions on airplanes
00:31:26.220 Playing the blues for a buck
00:31:28.220 The crap roars
00:31:29.220 The joke gets lost on them
00:31:31.220 That's what you get
00:31:32.220 For buying American
00:31:33.220 Buying American
00:31:35.220 Buying American
00:31:37.220 A whole life
00:31:38.120 The 46X
00:31:39.240 The 67X
00:31:39.460 Forex
00:31:45.620 The 65X
00:31:53.920 The 75X
00:31:54.480 The 64X
00:31:55.260 The 65X
00:31:56.300 Of bars
00:31:57.180 To display
00:31:57.260 The 76X
00:31:58.260 Atlanten
00:31:58.380 The 78X
00:31:59.260 The 75X
00:31:59.400 The 76X
00:32:00.340 The 75X
00:32:00.460 The 85X
00:32:00.860 The 75X
00:32:01.380 The 75X
00:32:02.000 The 80X
00:32:02.460 The 70X
00:32:03.580 The 75X
00:32:04.180 The 85X
00:32:04.240 The 76X
00:32:04.400 The 79X
00:32:05.300 The 81X
00:32:05.340 Zombie face melting
00:32:11.560 Opened up shoes
00:32:12.640 Lions on airplanes
00:32:14.160 Playing the blues for a buck
00:32:15.920 The crowd roars
00:32:17.000 Joke and smallstone them
00:32:18.760 That's what you get
00:32:19.840 For buying American
00:32:21.180 Zombie face melting
00:32:22.840 Opened up shoes
00:32:24.420 Lions on airplanes
00:32:26.040 Playing the blues for a buck
00:32:27.780 The crowd roars
00:32:28.900 Joke and smallstone them
00:32:30.620 That's what you get
00:32:31.680 For buying American
00:32:33.300 Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show.
00:32:38.360 It's Friday, which means it's time for the Friday edition of This Week in Politics.
00:32:43.160 Always love this panel, so please welcome to the show Warren Kinsella,
00:32:47.260 former advisor to Jean Chrétien, CEO of The Daisy Group,
00:32:50.180 and Chris Chapin, political commentator and managing principal of Upstream Strategy.
00:32:54.660 To the both of you, I say happy Friday.
00:32:58.000 Happy Friday indeed, guys.
00:32:59.460 Great. All right, let's start with you, Chris.
00:33:02.000 I want to ask you about what you think about these proposed bail reform changes.
00:33:08.420 I think it's a good start, Ben.
00:33:11.020 I feel like we've been talking about this on this show for months,
00:33:14.720 about the bail reform that's to come, that's to come, that's to come.
00:33:18.660 And, you know, yesterday's announcement was great,
00:33:21.040 but we're still waiting to see what's in, you know,
00:33:22.860 what is actually in the legislation when it comes next week.
00:33:25.840 So what's been said publicly, what the prime minister talked about yesterday,
00:33:29.940 sounds great, you know, a great start, you know,
00:33:33.360 checked all the boxes I thought he needed to check.
00:33:36.660 But I just, I wish we didn't wait all summer for this.
00:33:39.380 I will never understand why they couldn't have brought this forward,
00:33:41.940 what was so complicated right after the election.
00:33:44.540 Well, I mean, Chris, they had to go get all those guns.
00:33:48.540 They had to find,
00:33:50.280 they had to find all those police officers to stand behind the prime minister
00:33:52.800 yesterday. Like, I, I just, I don't know what the weight was for.
00:33:56.080 Like I, nothing, nothing that what he talked about yesterday
00:33:58.520 sounded overly complicated to me.
00:34:00.440 You know, it seemed pretty straightforward about what, you know,
00:34:02.840 specifically the opposition,
00:34:04.100 the conservatives have been calling for, for, for months,
00:34:06.880 if not years from the liberal government.
00:34:08.820 So I don't,
00:34:09.500 maybe he just needed enough distance between himself and the prime minister to
00:34:12.880 throw, you know,
00:34:13.600 the former prime minister to throw them under the bus.
00:34:15.160 Uh, Warren Kinsella, uh, I'm, um, one of my early criticisms of this prime
00:34:21.400 minister was I didn't know who he was or how he was going to work.
00:34:25.860 Cause he was to a lot of us was an unknown quantity.
00:34:28.300 I'm learning now, uh, as he does the job, the type of person he is,
00:34:32.620 the type of leader he is.
00:34:33.660 And he seems to be, he, he seems to follow a methodology.
00:34:37.600 He seems to be, um, deliberate and intentional and doesn't try to boil the ocean.
00:34:43.700 Uh, could this be that,
00:34:46.240 that we're seeing the first phase of a larger transformation of the criminal
00:34:51.480 justice system into something far more pragmatic,
00:34:54.380 far more cognizant of the rights of everyday Canadians?
00:34:58.940 Well, I hope so.
00:35:00.180 We all hope so.
00:35:01.580 And, you know, as somebody who practices law, you know,
00:35:06.140 what people's impression, I can tell you, it's absolutely right.
00:35:09.140 The one part of our criminal justice system that is a disaster is bail and bail
00:35:16.100 reform.
00:35:16.620 And there's all kinds of reasons for that.
00:35:19.120 Like we've talked about before, but you know,
00:35:22.900 why is the prime minister doing this now?
00:35:25.960 I think he's throwing a bone to the right.
00:35:28.840 Um, cause he's got some other things up his sleeve.
00:35:32.500 You know, he does this, you know,
00:35:34.360 he does this, what Clinton used to call triangulation.
00:35:38.020 So, you know, when we all think he's becoming a conservative,
00:35:41.380 what does he do last night?
00:35:42.620 He says to someone, well, yeah, if Benjamin Netanyahu comes to Canada,
00:35:47.800 I'm going to have him arrested, which of course the extremists on the left like.
00:35:51.840 So, you know,
00:35:53.220 it could be some triangulation that he's doing here where he felt he needed to
00:35:58.500 shore up his right flank, but separate and apart from the ideology, Ben,
00:36:03.020 um, this is clearly a huge problem.
00:36:06.340 We've got people who are on bail going out and, you know,
00:36:10.720 recommitting and, and serious crimes, terrible crimes, murders and rapes.
00:36:15.840 And it's just not acceptable to anybody anymore.
00:36:19.080 And we need to make some serious changes and not just at the level of the
00:36:22.620 criminal codes.
00:36:23.220 The provinces need to commit more resources so the judges can know if they
00:36:29.040 want to commit somebody to incarcerate them pending, you know,
00:36:32.700 their bail hearing, they can do that.
00:36:34.680 But right now we've got the system is packed and often judges don't have a
00:36:39.240 place to put the bad guy or the alleged bad guy.
00:36:41.900 So, um, um, Chris Chapin, if, uh, if, uh,
00:36:45.740 our prime minister is triangulating and every now and then he waxes to the
00:36:50.180 right and then he wanes to the left, where is he,
00:36:54.760 which version of him are we seeing as it relates to a counter tariffs?
00:37:00.000 Mark Carney has ruled them out.
00:37:01.500 I did a fireside chat with the premier of Ontario where he said,
00:37:05.900 I hope the, the, the, uh,
00:37:07.460 the prime minister punches back and uses every tool at his disposal to let,
00:37:13.020 uh, to, to, to, to keep this fight alive, uh, with the American president.
00:37:16.960 Mark Carney has ruled that out.
00:37:18.640 So what version of him are we seeing as it relates to our battle with Donald
00:37:23.900 Trump?
00:37:24.820 Well, first and foremost, I was in the room for your fireside chat.
00:37:27.860 I thought you did a great job.
00:37:29.280 Thank you.
00:37:29.760 Um, but on, on that specifically, I think this is,
00:37:33.280 this is the part of the prime minister that comes the most natural to him.
00:37:36.380 I think, you know, if he's talking about economics,
00:37:39.640 if he's talking about global trade, it's his personal political sweet spot.
00:37:44.320 It's, it's why the elected him in the first place, right?
00:37:48.220 Like this was what made Mark Carney seem like the right guy to be the prime
00:37:51.780 minister.
00:37:52.460 I don't know if I agree with him,
00:37:54.180 but I understand why he's saying no counter tariffs.
00:37:56.600 Like they're, they're trying to negotiate a deal.
00:37:59.020 Uh, they have kept it basically, you know, very quiet from Canadians.
00:38:02.760 There's, there's not been a lot of leaks.
00:38:04.520 I think they've done a poor job communicating to Canadians how close we
00:38:08.260 might be to a deal, uh, how,
00:38:10.480 how successful we might be with this deal and,
00:38:13.220 and what we might have to give up in this deal.
00:38:15.120 But I think this is truly his kind of sweet center liberal spot that he
00:38:19.280 really excels at.
00:38:20.280 Yeah.
00:38:20.740 Uh, Warren, uh, what, what do you think?
00:38:22.820 I mean, look, counter tariffs by, by Canada,
00:38:25.800 if they're surgical, if they're laser focused,
00:38:28.080 they can hurt one state or one, um, you know,
00:38:31.960 one skew at the, at the LCBO, but they,
00:38:35.320 they don't have the impact that the American tariffs have on us.
00:38:38.900 So is it really a tool?
00:38:40.760 Is it really a tool worth even exploring?
00:38:43.040 It is.
00:38:43.860 And that's what, you know,
00:38:44.600 I agree with Doug Ford and EB and British Columbia and the other
00:38:49.280 premiers who are saying Carney needs to get his elbows up again,
00:38:53.640 because it can work, you know, uh, you know, for example,
00:38:57.060 if you look at, tell me how,
00:38:59.020 well,
00:38:59.320 you look at Ford when he made his threat about cutting off energy supply to
00:39:03.400 three different U S States, uh,
00:39:05.740 let Nick, the,
00:39:06.720 the commerce secretary was on the phone right away saying,
00:39:09.740 let's get together and see what we can work out.
00:39:12.080 But that, that, that happened a few months ago right now,
00:39:16.000 for example,
00:39:17.300 China has got Donald Trump's attention because they're refusing.
00:39:20.820 They're talking about curbs on their rare earth exports.
00:39:25.280 So this is critical minerals used on everything from smartphones to fighter
00:39:29.820 jets.
00:39:30.880 And China is saying, no, we're going to fight you.
00:39:33.820 We're going to use this counter terror for this countervailing measure to
00:39:38.220 fight your tariffs and teach you a lesson.
00:39:40.020 And the Americans are freaking out and they're paying attention to that.
00:39:44.280 We can do the same sort of thing in a segmented kind of surgical way,
00:39:48.160 like a sniper action, but we're not doing that.
00:39:51.440 Cause the prime minister has just said to all the premiers, no,
00:39:53.860 uh, we're not going to do that.
00:39:55.160 We're going to see what we can work out. Okay, fine.
00:39:57.620 Well, Dominic LeBlanc has been down there so long.
00:40:00.200 I think he's become a permanent right.
00:40:03.180 And they've come back. They've come back guys with nothing.
00:40:06.620 We have nothing.
00:40:07.580 So it's like at a certain point,
00:40:09.020 you have to examine your strategy and say, is this working?
00:40:12.160 And I think this sucking up the Donald Trump strategy has not worked.
00:40:15.840 We have nothing to show for it. Look at what the Chinese are doing.
00:40:19.000 Look what the Mexicans are doing.
00:40:20.540 They're taking a much more, um, targeted, aggressive approach and it's working.
00:40:26.220 Uh, Chris Chapin, do you share Warren Kinsella's assessment?
00:40:29.320 Yeah. I mean, I, it's,
00:40:30.500 it's kind of what I was getting at on the communication side.
00:40:32.940 I think Canadians are starting to grow really frustrated with,
00:40:35.740 with the prime minister and,
00:40:37.060 and it's not helping when you have an announcement like this week where you see
00:40:40.740 Stellantis packed up and move out of the country. Uh, you know, we,
00:40:44.200 it's not that we're not winning, we're losing.
00:40:45.840 Like we are, we are actively losing in this trade war with Donald Trump.
00:40:49.480 There's nothing coming North of the border to replace what's going South of the
00:40:52.840 border. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, uh, but I, I, my fear guys,
00:40:57.480 and I, I'm so glad I'm not the guy, uh, calling the shots.
00:41:01.080 My fear is if we did do that, that,
00:41:03.960 that surgical strike that Donald Trump would just come and say, you know what?
00:41:07.920 Screw you for doing that to us. Here's another 15% on softwood lumber.
00:41:11.420 Yeah. Yeah. But he's doing that already. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:41:15.420 But he's, he's doing it already. Right. He did it.
00:41:17.580 He added another 10% this week. Like the present strategy is not working.
00:41:22.500 It's not, I was prepared to, okay, fine. He said at the end of August,
00:41:26.180 we're going to lower elbows. You know,
00:41:28.020 he had all those bizarre hockey metaphors that he used.
00:41:30.980 I didn't understand a damn thing that he said, but he said,
00:41:33.560 we're going to back off and drop our counter tariffs. Fine. It's,
00:41:37.920 it's now months later. Yeah. Right.
00:41:40.000 We're coming up to November and we got nothing to show for it.
00:41:43.340 So I'm saying, okay, well, you know,
00:41:45.380 maybe going back to the previous approach where we're being a little bit
00:41:48.980 tougher in the corners, maybe that's the way to go.
00:41:52.280 All right. Well guys, we're going to take a quick break, but up next,
00:41:54.740 I know I'm going to regret this.
00:41:56.840 I'm turning the microphone over to my guests.
00:41:59.260 They're going to be asking me a couple of questions. Uh,
00:42:02.160 we'll see how that goes. Don't go anywhere.
00:42:03.560 The Ben Mulroney show marches on.
00:42:11.000 Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and welcome back to Warren and Chris
00:42:14.400 for our Friday edition of this week in politics.
00:42:16.980 And we're doing something a little bit different because earlier this week,
00:42:19.940 I sat down for a fireside chat with the premier of Ontario and he,
00:42:26.080 uh, he, well,
00:42:26.680 he started the fireside chat where I'm supposed to ask the questions with this.
00:42:30.520 And now it's time for, Hey Ben, I'm asking the questions now.
00:42:36.940 There we go. All right.
00:42:38.040 So now it's time for Warren and Chris to ask me a question.
00:42:42.600 Go ahead, boys.
00:42:44.740 Well, I'll go first. I thought Ben, you were quite evasive.
00:42:47.860 Are you going to run for mayor? Yes or no?
00:42:49.880 I didn't think I was evasive. I thought it was quite direct.
00:42:52.420 I said I was having a great time doing my, I said one day,
00:42:54.640 perhaps I would like to, if the situation presents itself,
00:42:57.560 but now is not that time. I said, look, my show isn't even a year old.
00:43:01.860 This, my, my, the Ben Mulroney show is still in diapers.
00:43:04.940 I've got to, I'm still caring for my little toddler here.
00:43:08.800 That's a no responsive response.
00:43:11.160 Okay. I've never understood that.
00:43:13.500 I must be missing that, that political, that politician chip.
00:43:18.920 How is that not a no? How is that not definitive?
00:43:24.380 I've got a different question, Warren,
00:43:25.960 because it was going to be very similar to this, but you know,
00:43:29.520 you must like,
00:43:30.420 is this something growing up as the son of a prime minister or, you know,
00:43:34.420 the kitchen table talk during Thanksgiving with your, with your sister?
00:43:38.440 Like, were you guys practicing evading questions,
00:43:41.260 a yes or no answer when you were children?
00:43:43.520 Like, was that like my bedtime stories, you know?
00:43:46.780 Okay. Chris,
00:43:47.860 genuine, genuine question back to you.
00:43:51.480 How is what I said? So I can, so I can be better next time.
00:43:55.120 How is what I said? Not definitive.
00:43:58.960 I thought it was one day and your answer to me just a minute ago,
00:44:02.640 you said one day, well, that could be next week.
00:44:05.260 No, we teach politicians all the time.
00:44:08.460 When you say one day that could happen on Monday,
00:44:10.280 you could change your mind.
00:44:11.520 Okay. See, now, now I see, now I see that I, I,
00:44:15.080 I wasn't seeing it that way. Thank you very much.
00:44:17.320 I am not running for mayor in this upcoming election.
00:44:22.420 Oh, well, that's too bad.
00:44:27.120 Well, then if I can ask a follow-up, can I ask a follow-up?
00:44:29.620 Of course you can.
00:44:31.020 If you were, you talk to, you talk to people across this city,
00:44:34.320 across this country on a daily basis.
00:44:35.680 But when it comes to Toronto, what, what would you, what, you know,
00:44:39.400 what do you think the biggest issues facing the city are?
00:44:41.300 You know, we're going to have an election next, next year.
00:44:44.020 Yeah.
00:44:44.700 You know, what do you,
00:44:45.980 what do you think that election should be about?
00:44:47.680 I think, you know,
00:44:48.160 the mayor certainly has some questions about her record.
00:44:50.020 There's, you know, we've already got Brad Bradford in the, in the race.
00:44:52.960 I'm sure we'll see others, but you know, what do you think, you know,
00:44:56.140 from the callers you listen to and talk to on a daily basis,
00:44:58.580 what do you think the biggest issues are that are facing this city?
00:45:01.140 I think that we don't actually have here in the city of Toronto,
00:45:05.480 a good idea, a real idea as how, as to how our money is spent.
00:45:10.260 I think there are all sorts of pet projects that we don't know anything about
00:45:14.120 that are costing us God knows how much.
00:45:17.300 And because of that, until we know that every time the mayor says, well,
00:45:22.000 we're going to have to raise your taxes again.
00:45:24.000 I want to say, well, hold on a second.
00:45:26.740 Let's see what you're spending money on that.
00:45:28.620 You probably don't have to be spending money on before you come and get
00:45:32.300 another pound of flesh from people who don't have any flesh left.
00:45:35.320 I think a dollar, my, my personal political philosophy is generally speaking,
00:45:42.160 not universally, generally speaking,
00:45:44.600 a dollar earned by an individual is best spent by that individual.
00:45:48.280 Not to say we don't need a robust social safety net to help those who need
00:45:51.800 that help, but generally speaking, that is my default position.
00:45:55.660 And I do not feel like city hall feels the same way.
00:46:00.860 Well, then Chris, that sounds like a politician's answer to me.
00:46:04.100 Let me ask you, let me ask a question about that.
00:46:07.900 If, if things are as dysfunctional and, you know,
00:46:11.740 the city seems dirty and it feels like it feels like it's drifting,
00:46:14.820 that didn't just all happen on Olivia Chow's watch.
00:46:19.140 There's no race yet.
00:46:20.480 I mean, Brad Bradford said he's going to have his name on the ballot when the,
00:46:25.340 but there's no race to be had at the moment.
00:46:27.240 You're not allowed to be a candidate at the moment.
00:46:29.060 Should John Tory, who, you know, who I know, you know,
00:46:33.640 I think all of us like him, Ben, do you think John Tory should be a candidate?
00:46:38.620 Well, look, I think we, for sanity to be restored in the next election,
00:46:43.860 they, they, we can't have a repeat of the last election,
00:46:46.720 meaning Olivia Chow has the left to herself and the right is being gobbled up and,
00:46:51.340 and, and, and broken down by four or five candidates who are fighting amongst themselves.
00:46:55.240 So I, the, what, what I hope happens is the early first few months of the race,
00:47:00.680 uh, have as many people in as you want.
00:47:03.320 And that should be like the primary, the first few months to be like a primary.
00:47:06.900 And if you don't get to a certain level of, of popular support by a certain date,
00:47:11.480 you commit to, to, to packing up and trying again another time so that when it actually
00:47:16.940 comes down to the vote, there is one person going up against Olivia Chow.
00:47:22.160 Good answer.
00:47:22.920 Well, thank you very much. I've thought about this. All right, back to the here and now.
00:47:27.400 Thank you, gentlemen, uh, back to the here and now.
00:47:29.660 And let's talk about some people who are running for something, the NDP.
00:47:33.300 Um, and there is a candidate, Avi Lewis, who's pitching public grocery stores and analysts are
00:47:39.220 saying this is a bad idea. Uh, I, it seems like an echo of what Zoran Mamdani is pitching in New York
00:47:47.140 City. Uh, so, uh, Warren, what, what do you think of the idea of public grocery stores?
00:47:51.420 Well, we should go consult people who grew up in Soviet, the Soviet Union, you know, about how that
00:47:57.940 all worked out. And, uh, you know, maybe, maybe we'll be looking at, you know, picking up, uh, stockings
00:48:03.820 and bubblegum, you know, when we go abroad, because we won't have it here. Like, you know, capitalism has
00:48:09.340 got its faults, it's got its blemishes, but, you know, there's a reason why in democracy, our economic
00:48:15.740 systems have evolved in the way that they have. And, you know, if governments are running that, you know,
00:48:21.200 class people in our military, uh, who are now having to use food banks periodically, how does it work
00:48:26.840 out when the government is providing, you know, essentials for them? It often does not. It's not the
00:48:32.400 business, you know, it's not the business of, of business that government should be in. They should be
00:48:38.220 sticking to their own knitting and staying out of things like this. So whether it's in New York City or, or any
00:48:43.320 other place, you know, governments getting into providing that kind of support, I'm not talking
00:48:48.840 about food banks, I'm talking about just day-to-day essentials. It, history shows us it really, however
00:48:54.840 well-intentioned it is, it doesn't work out. Uh, Chris Chapin, what do you think? I mean, look, uh, I,
00:49:00.400 I think it's a terrible idea. However, I can make the argument that if the government based their,
00:49:07.180 the grocery store thing on say, um, the LCBO model that has incredible purchasing power and they,
00:49:15.000 um, the one thing they don't do is obtain lower prices with that purchasing power, but the, uh, on
00:49:19.920 at the grocery level, they, they could do something like that. Right. So, so what do you think?
00:49:25.400 I, I think, you know, well, one, on the LCBO side, you know, we do great, get great value. We just
00:49:30.480 tax the hell out of it, uh, you know, to the consumer. I, my fear is we do the same when it comes to
00:49:35.080 grocery stores. I think it's a, I think it's a terrible idea. Uh, I, what I will say is it's
00:49:39.780 nice to see the NDP being the NDP again. I think we missed this iteration of, you know,
00:49:45.700 a really, really progressive voice on the left, even though I think the idea is crazy. Um, you know,
00:49:50.900 as a conservative who selfishly thinks we perform a lot better in elections, when there's a strong
00:49:55.700 left vote that doesn't just coalesce towards the liberal party, it's at least nice to see people
00:50:00.040 putting crazy ideas out there that might attract some folks away from just defaulting to the
00:50:04.180 liberal party, who I don't think deserves to be reelected over and over again, simply because
00:50:08.080 the left's non-existent. Uh, Warren, if you were a betting man today, who would you say takes the
00:50:12.680 crown and becomes the next NDP leader? Uh, I knew him when he had a show on another network and I
00:50:20.240 used to go on his show regularly and like in person, he's a very charming guy. You know, he's a very smart
00:50:27.040 guy. Um, you know, my problem with him is he's become, I think a bit of an extremist on Israel
00:50:33.360 and, and on policies like this. So maybe he's doing it for leadership. All, you know, all three
00:50:39.660 of us know when you're seeking the leadership, sometimes you have to stake out, you know, pretty
00:50:44.420 extreme positions in order to distinguish yourself from the herd. Maybe he's doing that, but you know,
00:50:50.260 some of the stuff that he's talking about doing, I think would be quite harmful for Canada
00:50:53.920 and for Canada's reputation abroad.
00:51:05.820 Lucy's on her way to London. I'm riding home.
00:51:14.420 I say my house to the station. It sits all alone.
00:51:18.920 Lucy, you're the only thing I really want to know.
00:51:30.820 If I can't keep on writing my songs about you, where's it all to go?
00:51:38.920 Where's it all to go?
00:51:41.320 Her microwave is in the laundry, yeah, that I ain't on.
00:51:53.420 I feel so lucky that she lets me walk around her home.
00:52:02.120 Lucy, what kind of see you clearly?
00:52:05.420 I'd have it up in the snow.
00:52:07.320 If I can't keep on writing my songs about you, where's it all to go?
00:52:18.620 Where's it all to go?
00:52:23.520 And how does it feel that I'm talking to myself about you?
00:52:32.220 What kind of freak are you friends with?
00:52:41.220 And what will it take for me to chase your name right out of my head?
00:52:50.220 I don't know what you're calling me out.
00:52:54.220 Is it all to go?
00:52:54.720 Lucy's on her way to London, I'm riding home
00:53:17.660 And how does it feel that I'm talking to myself about you?
00:53:29.040 I'm gonna breathe, are you friends with me?
00:53:36.960 And what will it take for me to chase your name right out of my head?
00:53:46.580 I won't win, but you're gonna need all
00:53:50.920 This is on her way to London, I'm riding home
00:54:05.580 I'm riding home
00:54:09.580 I'm riding home
00:54:13.580 Welcome back.
00:54:21.920 Well, after two years of turmoil inside Canada's largest public sector union over Fred Hahn's virulent anti-Semitic and anti-Israel posts, he has lost his position as the union's vice president.
00:55:08.220 If this is part of a rethink among public sector unions who see their situation changing and realize that a retreat from the radical politics they are so focused on is in order at this time.
00:55:24.560 And now let's go to Warren Kinsella, a lawyer and journalist and Carrie Silverberg, a Jewish QP member who resigned from the executive of QP Local 1734.
00:55:48.560 Thank you both for joining us.
00:55:51.560 Thank you.
00:55:52.560 Thank you.
00:55:53.560 So, yeah, let's begin with Warren.
00:55:58.060 What do you think of this and what changed after so long where none of what he did seemed to make a difference?
00:56:05.580 Well, looking in from the outside, I've done some writing about QP.
00:56:11.840 I wouldn't know as much as as Carrie does, but it looks to me like he was just he became baggage for them.
00:56:19.000 He became a big problem.
00:56:20.540 You know, as you pointed out, they put up with some of his initial anti-Jewish, anti-Israel and arguably anti-Semitic stuff.
00:56:28.960 But, you know, I think there were some straws of the book, The Camel's Back.
00:56:32.840 The big one, I think, was him basically participating in a rally in support of Iran.
00:56:41.160 Iran has got the worst human rights record in the world.
00:56:45.460 And back just a few weeks ago in June, he led an effort to defend Iran, saying hands off Iran.
00:56:57.400 And I think what I was hearing from people within QP, and there are some good people there, and Carrie is one of them, just said enough is enough.
00:57:06.160 So he's lost his national role.
00:57:08.240 But as you point out, he's still he's still there exercising power at the provincial level.
00:57:13.260 So Carrie, your reaction to this development and what's your take on on what may have changed?
00:57:21.260 Well, I was quite happy that the tides are starting to change and people are starting to find their voice.
00:57:26.680 I think a huge part of the problem is people are afraid to run against him.
00:57:31.360 There's a lot of bullying going on from inside.
00:57:33.820 So people are concerned if they don't win, what will happen?
00:57:36.840 But I do think that more people have now found their voices and are standing up as they did last week at national.
00:57:43.340 And hopefully we'll have we'll see the same trend coming in in May at the provincial election when he hopefully will lose that position.
00:57:52.580 Yeah. OK, so people are afraid to run against him.
00:57:55.600 But what would stop them from voting against him if they disagree?
00:57:59.520 There's nobody to vote for.
00:58:03.360 I was at the convention when he got reelected and there were other people that ran.
00:58:10.760 None of them had a had a platform.
00:58:12.540 None of them prepared anything ahead of time.
00:58:14.820 It seemed a little contrived to me like he didn't want to be acclaimed.
00:58:17.840 Better. He should win.
00:58:18.940 I can't prove that.
00:58:20.060 It's the way it felt.
00:58:21.260 There was there wasn't really any competition.
00:58:23.020 But having said that, you have to understand there's less than less than three point three percent of the of the members are actually there to vote.
00:58:34.120 So, you know, it's hard to actually say he got reelected democratically because people are the people that aren't happy typically just stop going to convention and then they don't have a voice at all.
00:58:46.220 And even people that do want to vote like I like me can't go because our our presidents and executive don't let us go.
00:58:54.660 So it's kind of a no win situation.
00:58:59.520 You were part of a human rights complaint.
00:59:02.960 Do you still want to go forward with that?
00:59:06.060 Absolutely.
00:59:06.860 It's it's it's not just Fred Hahn.
00:59:09.000 It's CUPE Ontario.
00:59:10.680 And whether he's there or not, the damage and the hurt have been caused.
00:59:15.380 And he continued to do it more, even more so after the he was served with the paper.
00:59:23.040 So he knows he's causing harm and he continues to do it.
00:59:25.960 So, yes, I would not drop the case.
00:59:28.660 I think that CUPE Ontario has to take some responsibility, too.
00:59:33.740 Warren, do you see this part of, you know, perhaps a rethink among public sector unions?
00:59:42.620 And, you know, I'm I'm looking at a report here that was talking about what happened at the the CUPE National Conference.
00:59:51.880 And according to the count here, and this is Juno News, they say that fewer than one in 10 resolutions address the everyday concerns of members like wages, pensions, workload.
01:00:08.380 And roughly a third of the agenda was consumed by geopolitics.
01:00:14.040 And they're talking about resolutions promoting socialism, condemning capitalism, calling on Canada's withdrawal from NATO and endorsing the BDS movement against Israel.
01:00:27.360 So do you see a kind of realization going on that, you know, maybe now is not the time to be seized with this stuff?
01:00:37.000 Yeah, I've got some good examples, too.
01:00:39.180 You know, back in the summer, CUPE Ontario was railing against the IHRA accepted definition of anti-Semitism, which is accepted by Canada and countries around the world.
01:00:51.980 It said it said it was going to fight against bubble zones, you know, which not just protect synagogues, they protect mosques as well and churches.
01:01:02.520 And then they said they wanted to advocate in support of anti-Palestinian racism, which superficially sounds great until you find out that APR, as it's called, has been used to basically argue for the proposition that Israel shouldn't exist and actually doesn't exist.
01:01:19.180 But to your point, yes, I think the public sector unions, not the private sector ones, the public sector unions are getting in trouble with their own members.
01:01:29.500 They're certainly getting in trouble with the public and government.
01:01:33.180 And so Cup W, for example, which, full disclosure, I used to be a lawyer for a million years ago when dinosaurs still roamed the earth.
01:01:41.620 You know, they would go to Libya, they would go to conferences sponsored by Muammar Gaddafi in Libya.
01:01:47.760 They would advocate in favor of all kinds of anti-Israel, anti-Jewish stuff.
01:01:54.520 Well, look at them now.
01:01:55.620 You know, they've lost their own membership and their current strike is falling apart because they've lost the path.
01:02:03.400 You know, they've kind of lost the plot.
01:02:05.440 Same thing here.
01:02:06.700 I think CUPE's membership decided, you know what, this guy has become a lightning rod for too much controversy.
01:02:14.080 And we need to get back to focusing on our membership because that's, you know, what we're supposed to be doing.
01:02:20.420 So I'm hopeful.
01:02:21.580 I'm hopeful that's the way it's going.
01:02:24.280 But, you know, as you point out, Fred Hahn is still there.
01:02:27.800 Carrie, do people come to you in confidence?
01:02:31.360 Do you see less of an appetite for the kind of geopolitical radical activism?
01:02:39.560 I think that it's the very loud, small minority that fights for that.
01:02:46.600 And they outshout the people who actually want this change and want the union to focus on union business and not all this other stuff that doesn't impact the members at all.
01:02:59.980 But it's using up a lot of time and a lot of resources.
01:03:02.840 So, yes, I do hear from people and people are constantly asking, what can we do?
01:03:06.400 And the answer is, use your voice.
01:03:09.260 We all need to start speaking up.
01:03:11.040 And if you can't get to convention, do it at your local level.
01:03:13.760 Do it wherever you can.
01:03:15.240 And I think, you know, people need to start hearing that this is not what a public sector labor union in Ontario or Canada is supposed to be doing.
01:03:23.240 Do you think that, say, when we look at Cup W, you know, members were turning against this strike and saying, hey, we need some paychecks.
01:03:35.100 Do you think that there's a kind of a resentment because, you know, members need their paychecks?
01:03:43.000 But no matter what happens, the people running the unions get paid.
01:03:47.400 Yeah, well, I know that it happens all the time.
01:03:53.080 Like, people are starting to resent the amount of money that the unions are spending on things like their own salaries and their own benefits and their own cars that they drive and, you know, and not focusing on issues that the members need them to focus on.
01:04:06.920 And so, yes, I do think people are, the members are starting to realize and hopefully, you know, change takes time.
01:04:12.200 But I think it definitely is starting.
01:04:14.840 Warren, I mean, you're a lawyer.
01:04:16.480 A lot of this stuff is, I mean, it's entrenched.
01:04:20.020 It is.
01:04:20.620 It is.
01:04:21.020 But, you know, as Kerry points out, and as I think we all hope, you know, there are people who within CUPE or Cup W or any of these other unions, Unifor, public sector unions who are saying.
01:04:33.040 And, like, CUPE Ontario feels to me like an outlier, like CUPE Nova Scotia.
01:04:39.820 Like, if you think back to the revolution in Iran in 1979, the first people that the Ayatollahs killed were union leaders.
01:04:50.020 So, CUPE Nova Scotia said, you know, in 2022 that they stood with the people of Iran and not the autocrats around the place.
01:04:59.020 And CUPE Vancouver has called for an investigation into Iran when it shot down that Ukrainian International Airlines flight a few years ago.
01:05:07.620 So, there are people within the CUPE leadership and the CUPE membership who I think are decent people and are sane.
01:05:15.120 But there's something in the water at CUPE Ontario.
01:05:18.840 And, you know, Fred Hahn, I think, is like he's hurting the entire union movement.
01:05:24.800 And I say that as somebody who used to be a member of a union.
01:05:27.500 Yeah, interesting.
01:05:30.240 I mean, what part, Warren, do you think there?
01:05:33.480 I mean, I think Mark Carney has shown that he is willing to take on public sector unions,
01:05:40.280 that he will be willing to cut the public service, which basically mushroomed under Trudeau.
01:05:48.140 Do you think that there is a realization of that?
01:05:52.800 Yeah, I think so.
01:05:55.180 I mean, the rumors we're all hearing about this budget is it's going to be historic.
01:05:59.340 It's going to be like the Martin-Kretchen budget of 94.
01:06:02.840 The irony, I mean, I feel sorry for Pierre Paulyev, who lost his seat in Ottawa area's seat because all the public servants who were his constituents thought,
01:06:13.120 you know, if he became prime minister, they'd lose their job.
01:06:15.360 Well, now it looks like they're going to lose their jobs under Mark Carney as well.
01:06:19.580 So kind of a bit of irony there.
01:06:22.500 But, yeah, you know, is there an anti-union sentiment taking place in the country?
01:06:28.640 To some extent, sadly, I would say there is.
01:06:31.920 And it's because of stuff like Fred Hahn and QP Ontario, who are just wildly out of touch.
01:06:38.240 Like, Fred Hahn, God bless him, is a gay man.
01:06:42.420 Like, if he traveled to Iran, who he's advocated for, if he traveled to Gaza, who he advocates for all the time, like, Libby, I don't think he'd last 24 hours.
01:06:55.540 How that escapes him is beyond me.
01:06:59.880 And a lot of gay people, it slays me.
01:07:02.800 It really does.
01:07:05.900 It makes no sense at all.
01:07:07.420 So, yes, hopefully sanity is creeping back into the picture.
01:07:11.900 But we've got a ways to go yet, because the union movement, the public sector union movement in this country, really got off the beaten path for quite some time.
01:07:21.160 Another question to you, Warren.
01:07:23.820 You know, I'm trying to find out more about this very young man, Joel Lightbound, who is in charge of the Canada Post restructuring
01:07:34.580 and seems to have the chops for it.
01:07:37.560 What's your take on him?
01:07:38.880 He's 37 years old.
01:07:40.540 I never heard of him before.
01:07:42.920 Yeah.
01:07:44.440 I've got shoes older than this cabinet.
01:07:46.680 So, his title is the Minister of Government Transformation, Public Works, and Procurement.
01:07:55.080 And he's a newcomer to politics, very bright young guy.
01:07:59.180 But, you know, I think he had no choice.
01:08:04.340 Canada Post has been losing $10 million a day for a long time now, as the Prime Minister pointed out just a few days ago.
01:08:13.440 And so, the status quo, like the cliche goes, was just not an option.
01:08:17.400 We had to do something.
01:08:19.040 Joel Lightbound had to do something.
01:08:21.300 And so, he dropped the bomb.
01:08:23.500 He said, we're not going to have, you know, door-to-door delivery of mail to your homes anymore.
01:08:30.780 And that was a courageous thing to say.
01:08:32.840 Some might say it's a politically suicidal thing to say.
01:08:35.620 Because right now, people are saying, oh, that's fine.
01:08:37.720 I don't miss Canada Post.
01:08:39.440 But, you know, in February, when you've got your mom, you know, climbing over a snowbank at eight feet high to get a community mailbox,
01:08:47.840 I'm not sure people are going to be as sanguine about it.
01:08:50.520 But I really think at the end of the day, they didn't have any choice.
01:08:54.160 And what, again, getting back to what we were talking about, what does Canada Post do?
01:08:59.480 They have the second major national strike in a year to oppose this.
01:09:05.540 And now they see that the public's not on side and their own members aren't on side.
01:09:09.420 And they're talking about coming back to work.
01:09:11.340 So, you know, the public sector unions are really losing a lot of credibility these days.
01:09:16.820 I'm going to give the last word to Carrie.
01:09:20.300 What would you like to leave us with on this?
01:09:23.100 And what's your next move?
01:09:25.160 I mean, Fred Hahn is only half gone.
01:09:29.900 Yeah, I think it's probably even less than half if you're in Ontario.
01:09:32.760 I guess I would just like to see more people finding their voices and speaking up, because I know that people are afraid, too.
01:09:41.900 And, you know, for example, there was a huge resolution on the floor last week about BDS.
01:09:47.340 And somebody came to the floor and said, can we do a private ballot?
01:09:51.660 And the people who wanted it to pass went ballistic over a private ballot.
01:09:56.620 Well, how is a private ballot taking away their safety?
01:09:59.500 It's not.
01:10:00.560 But it's so eventually the private ballot people won and the resolution was defeated.
01:10:05.780 So they didn't give up.
01:10:07.220 They kept fighting.
01:10:08.260 And if you're lucky enough to have a few people who are willing to speak at the mic at convention, you can make things happen.
01:10:14.780 OK, on that note, we wrap things up.
01:10:18.140 Thanks so much, Carrie Silverberg and Warren Kinsella.
01:10:21.500 Bye bye.
01:10:44.780 Help me, help me, I'm a mess.
01:11:10.420 She's left my mind in a state of undress.
01:11:14.960 Help me, help me, I'm a mess.
01:11:19.800 Considered it's my last call of distress.
01:11:24.200 Yeah!
01:11:33.700 Chase me, please, eh?
01:11:36.260 I hear her screaming.
01:11:37.500 Behind this scene, she's my favorite song.
01:11:51.560 Take me, break me.
01:11:53.900 We gotta hold.
01:11:56.040 Shake me, embrace me.
01:11:58.000 I'm not going alone.
01:11:59.460 Help me, help me, I'm a mess.
01:12:12.100 She's left my mind in a state of undress.
01:12:16.840 Help me, help me, I'm a mess.
01:12:21.380 Until it's my last call of distress.
01:12:25.680 Yeah!
01:12:25.960 Yeah!
01:12:26.100 Yeah!
01:12:29.760 I'm not going to talk about anything.
01:12:30.820 I don't know.
01:12:31.460 Yeah, I love you.
01:12:47.940 I'm not going to talk about it.
01:12:50.400 Let's go.
01:13:20.400 Let's go.
01:13:50.400 Let's go.
01:14:20.400 Let's go.
01:14:50.400 Let's go.
01:15:20.400 Let's go.
01:15:50.380 Let's go.