00:00:00.000It's the KinsellaCast, starring Warren Kinsella.
00:00:13.440Hey, it's Warren. Welcome to KinsellaCast. I'd say good morning, but it's not a good morning.
00:00:18.420As you have undoubtedly heard by now, there's been a terrorist attack on Bondi Beach in Australia.
00:00:24.680And many people have been killed. Many people have been wounded, mostly Jews.
00:00:30.860And they were killed and attacked because they are Jews.
00:00:34.680And I know one of them. His name is Arsene Ostrowski.
00:00:38.920He's a human rights lawyer. He's helped me out with my book, The Hidden Hand.
00:00:42.660We talked many times. He's an extraordinary guy. Born in Ukraine.
00:00:47.880His family left Ukraine when he was little because of anti-Semitism.
00:00:52.320And they moved to Australia. And he was on that beach last night and was wounded.
00:00:57.140And I know that because I woke to a picture of him on my phone, covered in blood.
00:01:04.360So he survived, thank God, but many others did not.
00:01:08.000So I'm on my way to a Hanukkah ceremony, a celebration at the synagogue in Belleville.
00:01:15.140And it's going to be a very different kind of celebration than I think had been planned.
00:01:21.160But I think it's really important that it goes ahead and it's really important that I go to stand there arm in arm with my Jewish brothers and sisters.
00:01:32.880So if you get the sense of words that are failing me this morning, you're right.
00:01:38.420They are. These events are horrible and becoming more and more frequent.
00:01:43.240And it really changes things when you know somebody who was in one of them and was almost killed.
00:02:42.260So the story is, which was exclusively given to me this week, a woman who lives in a condo building in Toronto, went downstairs in there in the lobby.
00:22:53.360The convoy stuff to now with the the anti-israel mostly anti-israel protests and has been warning that there's been a breakdown in civility and decency and that it was going to lead to some terrible consequences and
00:23:16.360On the first day of Hanukkah it has Bondi beach in Australia on a beach you know where people were with their families and at their most defenseless and so forgive me Karima for asking the horrible obvious journalist question but what's your reaction to what you've heard in the scene so far?
00:23:35.360far it's uh not a nice thing to wake up to it may be the understatement of the year um and
00:23:47.040to your point just now uh my immediate thought is you know that there's nothing
00:23:55.800that immunizes canada or makes us exceptional or otherwise special that we couldn't be
00:24:04.940something similar happen here um so you know i'm looking at these news stories wondering about
00:24:13.360kind of the micro level that you know who what how uh and and those are questions i'm sure will be
00:24:22.560answered in the coming days um but uh yeah this is the extreme end of breakdown in civil society
00:24:33.400and you've said that this was the inevitable consequence of that kind of breakdown
00:24:40.520um thank god we've avoided so far in canada but you've documented a number of events where it
00:24:48.340feels like it's going to come close what have you seen with your own eyes what have you heard with
00:24:53.100your own ears when you cover these protests and document them where where does that transition
00:25:00.320take place from just mere words to actual bloodshed well it happens sometimes in the crowd that
00:25:09.140you know there is a trigger or a flashpoint and what was initially people chanting doing their own thing
00:25:19.440can quickly become an unruly mob and this is true kind of across the board of what i've documented um you know
00:25:30.960there's something to crowd dynamics in that sense um i've seen all manner of things um from you know the
00:25:40.400pushing and shoving and yelling um to more explicit acts of violence often violence targeting
00:25:49.220police officers um you know i've witnessed arrests um for people who have uh weapons um i i've
00:26:00.180seen then protesters gathering outside police stations to demand the arrest of their comrades um
00:26:11.380you know there was someone who had a bottle of what was labeled ammonium hydroxide at an event um and and and so
00:26:20.980a whole range of behaviors that any one incident would be kind of shocking um right but it's now almost
00:26:32.100normalized um and my experience is that you know things just escalate they tend to escalate until there's
00:26:40.820an actual breaking point and i fear that that will look like violence that can't be undone
00:26:49.240the connection between words and action you know the thing i've always believed and i've written
00:26:57.760is that hateful deeds are preceded by hateful words and you see a lot of that rhetoric uh all the time
00:27:06.060i guess i guess the one that we're hearing this morning is you know globalize the intifada
00:27:11.660and is this a globalization in the intifada with the the horrible event in australia or proceeding that
00:27:19.580in washington dc or boulder colorado is it um our words becoming deeds increasingly all over the world
00:27:29.260it's an interesting question i too am a believer in the power of words i'm also mindful that
00:27:41.580words will be interpreted differently depending on one's sort of framework right and so there is an
00:27:49.500objective meaning towards and then sort of a constructivist we're saying this but actually
00:27:56.620mean that um and and so that's where like there's tension sometimes at protests because um there will
00:28:04.380be a particular chance that fits poorly with others and then a doubling down and insistence on it's our
00:28:12.380right to speak that way um and and and concerns that okay but this is is a possible incitement it may
00:28:19.100not be explicit um but that is the undertone um globalize the intifada uh is a very common chant um i
00:28:28.220would say um references to the intifada generally um are are almost ubiquitous at these events and if you
00:28:37.500were to ask protesters they are referring to they would say that they're referring to the literal
00:28:44.700arabic translation a shaking off we want to shake off uh it's a form of revolution no more oppression
00:28:52.380so on so forth um if you look kind of historically um the term came about
00:29:01.100in a deliberate effort to kind of lower the temperature i think on language and so
00:29:07.420that's why that word um was popularized but then in practice the intifada involved uh countless
00:29:17.420suicide bombings and other forms of terrorist attacks right so that then becomes part and parcel
00:29:24.140of the term and so people pick and choose what they mean right and and in in practical terms
00:29:33.260um i think the word has has been tainted uh and there is sort of insistence on on sticking with that
00:29:42.700language you know we won't be pushed away from we won't be tone policed we're gonna express ourselves
00:29:49.180the way we want um so is this an example of globalizing the intifada i haven't read enough um to sort of say
00:29:59.740um for sure um what these gunmen were you know we have some basic sense of it but i i don't know um
00:30:11.180is that a possible interpretation of the term for sure um you know that that's pretty plainly um and
00:30:18.620you'll have sort of so-called progressives here um in the the academic or or journalist class um who are
00:30:28.300openly suggesting that um there is no like you the conflation between zionist and and jewish person
00:30:39.260like it's if someone supports israel they are fair game for harassment um and i i don't think that
00:30:45.820that that's sustainable in canada um i just don't and and i think that this becomes an end result and i say that
00:30:56.860um not as an endorsement of the state of israel but because we still have laws here um that prevent certain
00:31:07.900types of behavior and again uh there is this gradual erosion of basic decency and not just decency but
00:31:18.620respect for criminal law final question what do you think you know you've been excuse me documenting all
00:31:27.580of this uh for so long on many fronts on many battle lines i guess and um we do know that the police have
00:31:39.500uh prevented uh mass casualty events in ottawa twice one in toronto um a couple elsewhere in the country
00:31:49.660do you think of somebody who pays attention to this growing anger in society do you think the bondi beach
00:31:56.140type event is something that is inevitable in canada i hesitate to say inevitable i think that there's
00:32:07.500always time to course correct it hasn't happened up to this point um we have seen um terror motivated
00:32:16.220attacks before uh so it wouldn't be completely unprecedented um if nothing changes um then
00:32:26.060yes the logical trajectory um is acts of of violence um and and acts of violence along the lines of
00:32:35.260what we just saw and that's that's terrific to say or think about um so it's worst case scenario um not
00:32:43.180out of the realm of possibility at all um but not necessarily inevitable um and you know there's maybe i'm
00:32:51.180naive or optimistic in saying this but there's there's still time for people to turn it down a few
00:32:58.860notches um and that doesn't you know just act right right act right within your moral convictions um but
00:33:09.580there are no justifiable bad shortcuts um and you know but that's a reflection of the echo chambers i
00:33:19.900suppose we find ourselves in um but this is not normal uh but it could be something that happens here
00:33:27.420well i hope you're right i hope it is not inevitable i don't know either um god knows what's going to
00:33:34.140happen but it just feels awfully awful uh on this uh morning the first uh day of hanukkah and beginning
00:33:43.340of a religious season holiday season for lots of people so just uh be safe i think you're heading out
00:33:50.620to an event to an event to do what you do so just uh be careful and we look forward to talking to you next
00:33:57.260week cheers thank you who here in the crew was he talking to he was laughing and smoking
00:34:11.260who who here in the crew was he talking to you what words were spoken
00:38:15.860Warren, why was everybody so happy about that?
00:38:18.860Well, because they're one seat closer to a majority.
00:38:22.860Like, it was a Christmas present, it was a New Year's present, it was a birthday present, wrapped all in one.
00:38:29.860He's one seat away from majority, and I am hearing that there are other conservatives, at least two, who are about to be in the wind, and he's going to get his majority.
00:38:39.860So, yeah, they're pretty happy about that. They don't have to worry about an election for another year.
00:38:44.860Yeah, I think a lot of people – I'm fine with that. I don't need to go back to the – but, like, these politicians, Chris, traditionally, if you're a floor crosser, you don't have the longest career.
00:38:58.780I mean, Scott Bryce is probably the exception that proves the rule, but most of them are one or two terms after that, and they're done.
00:39:05.420So the long-term success is not – it's for the liberal brand. It's not for these floor crossers.
00:39:10.620No, absolutely. You know, there's very little win for most people that cross the floor.
00:39:16.920I think it's probably just vested in the fact that there's always going to be trust issues with who you are.
00:39:22.440You know, you abandoned your team to come join and play on our team.
00:39:25.480So, you know, but that said, it's a huge win for the Liberal Party of Canada, and Mark Carney specifically, to Warren's point.
00:39:31.800He's one seat closer to a majority government that the people of Canada didn't give him.
00:39:37.160You know, they're playing great politics. I hope they don't get the majority, but I've heard similar rumors to what Warren was insinuating, that there's a couple more in the wings.
00:39:47.440And given what they just went through, you know, you look at the drama around getting the budget passed, but then bringing forward the pipeline MOU.
00:39:54.460A week later, Elizabeth May said she felt blindsided and wouldn't support the government again.
00:39:59.840And there's a couple of people in his own caucus that I think are questioning the prime minister's policy directive.
00:40:05.360So getting that much closer to having that majority vote in parliament and not needing to stress about the things you're going to do for the next couple of years is a massive coup for the prime minister.
00:40:15.240But Warren, the longer this gets drawn out, in my opinion, just one man's opinion,
00:40:21.260the floor crossers, the later in the game it gets, they start looking more and more psychopathic to me.
00:40:29.080Meaning like, yes, yesterday you had, on Wednesday, he's at the conservative Christmas party, smiling it up, yucking it up, big smiles on his face, dancing with everybody.
00:40:39.520And then the next day, he's a liberal.
00:40:41.420That takes a special kind of cold calculation.
00:40:43.940Yeah, well, welcome to politics, which, you know, that's, that's just how it is.
00:40:50.120And like, it's all about winning, guys, right?
00:40:53.980And Carney's that much closer to, to winning.
00:40:57.800And, and so, you know, I give him credit.
00:41:01.240I, I thought you guys know, this guy never been involved in politics before at this level,
00:41:06.880but he's playing it pretty good for somebody who doesn't have a lot of experience.
00:41:11.060Number one, number two, this is a comment on the leadership of Pierre Polyev, whether conservatives like it or not.
00:41:18.920I don't even actually care what's going to happen at his leadership review in January.
00:41:23.140Right now, his caucus are voting with their feet and saying, we don't have confidence in this guy.
00:41:29.160Like, this wouldn't be happening just because of Carney.
00:41:32.080It's also happening because of Polyev.
00:41:34.340The, the people within that caucus clearly were dissatisfied with the leadership of their own leader.
00:41:41.520And, you know, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure that's playing into it as well, but Chris, anything to add to that?
00:41:47.200No, I, I, you know, I, I won't let one or two MPs speak for, for Polyev's entire leadership.
00:41:53.040But, uh, if, if a couple more start crossing the floor, it's, uh, I think there's going to be a lot of questions being asked around that, that caucus table.
00:42:01.440And, and there, you know, there's no question, uh, losing to this quickly after an election.
00:42:06.780Um, you know, I think Michael Ma's a bit lower on the, you know, the pecking order than Chris Dontremont was.
00:42:12.520I mean, you know, Chris walking being their, their lone Nova Scotia MPs, a lot different than, you know, one of your Markham MPs crossing the floor, uh, who frankly, most people have never heard of, but you know, it's, it's certainly of concern.
00:42:24.420And I, I thought Pierre had kind of cauterized this issue within caucus.
00:42:35.440Uh, on Monday, I believe it was Monday.
00:42:37.560We started musing about who could be a good, um, a good replacement to ambassador Hillman in Washington.
00:42:44.880And a number of the names that came up were, uh, Tory stalwarts.
00:42:49.600Uh, you had the Jason Kenney's, you had the John Chavez, you had the Lisa rates, all of them would say, you know what?
00:42:54.240If, if Mark Carney wants to do something to reach across the aisle, if he really wants to blunt any sort of, uh, um, a criticism from the Tories, pick one of those people.
00:43:02.980They would, they would, they do a great job and they've got, um, a lot of connections down there and it'd be great.
00:43:08.960But now we're hearing that Mark Wiseman, uh, is, uh, on the short list and he was one of the loudest voices of the $100 million, $100 million population for Canada front.
00:43:19.620Uh, and, um, uh, I know we have to get to a hundred million at some point,
00:43:24.080but the speed with which, uh, that was going to happen is, um, was a little dubious.
00:43:28.860Uh, what do you guys think of, of, of Mark Wiseman potentially being the front runner for the ambassadorship of, in Washington?
00:43:35.200Um, we'll start with you, uh, Mr. Uh, Kinsella.
00:43:39.620I couldn't pick him out of a police lineup.
00:44:43.720Well, I think if there's one thing I've been impressed about the prime minister over, you know, the couple months he's, he's been in power, has been his willingness to get his people into the roles he wants them to.
00:44:54.220Uh, and this, you know, to Warren's point screams, I think Hillman was pushed out or politely asked.
00:44:59.560And I mean, from what I've read on Mark Wiseman, uh, he was described as Mark Carney's protege, somebody who he's worked with and, and clearly has a, a large deal of trust in.
00:45:09.960And so, you know, making him potentially the ambassador to the United States is a position you darn well better trust the person given the circumstances we're in.
00:45:17.660So I, I don't know a whole lot about him beyond that.
00:45:21.840I'm a little concerned with anybody who thinks this a hundred million population idea is a great place for, for us to be as a country.
00:45:27.860But, uh, from, from the perspective of having somebody that the prime minister trusts and thinks can do the job down in Washington, that's somebody we should all be rooting for.
00:45:36.760And if this is the guy that, that the prime minister thinks is best suited for it, then, you know, uh, Godspeed for it.
00:45:42.420Well, listen, I think, uh, Warren, I think we're losing you after this segment cause you've got, you've got work to do, but before you leave, I wanted to highlight, we had a conversation with the head of the law fair project who is doing some, uh, work based on reporting that you did in the Toronto sun on, uh, in 2024, relating to, um, uh, charitable, uh, charitable organizations that may or may not be running afoul of the law here in Canada.
00:46:06.080And I want to congratulate you on that.
00:46:09.660The story is, um, there's been some unfairness, uh, CRA, which is in charge of charities has been letting some so-called pro-Palestinian charities, uh, do some things that do not reflect what they, they're supposed to be doing.
00:46:25.560Whereas long time charities, uh, like one I've been involved with, like the Jewish national fund been around for a century, plants trees and builds parks in Israel.
00:46:34.740Well, got, got decertified, got shut down by the government of Canada.
00:46:39.140And that's, that's not fair and that's not right.
00:46:41.760And, um, so I think the law fair project, Brooke Goldstein, who is a proud Montrealer like you, Ben, and now lives in New York and is a very impressive person.
00:46:51.080She and her team who are formidable have taken this on and said enough is enough and, uh, welcome to it.
00:46:57.760Uh, so hopefully they have some success.