kinsellacast - KINSELLACAST 411： Hidden Hand book week and more! With Belanger, Mulroney, Sa'd and Lilley - plus lotsa Joyce Manor and Militarie Gun!

00:00:00.000 It's the Kinsella Cast, starring Warren Kinsella.

00:00:30.000 hey it's warren welcome to good selling cast during this the book week the hidden hand came

00:00:39.880 out this week and i've been flogging it and so i'll be talking about that in a minute and um

00:00:48.760 it's bestseller um on amazon and i guess they keep a few bestseller lists and it's on political

00:00:58.740 doctrines and political ideologies. It's number one. So that's very nice. I didn't think it was

00:01:05.060 a big deal. And then my publisher said to me, no, Amazon actually is in fact a big deal.

00:01:12.960 And we're looking at possibly doing another run of books. So that's kind of cool. So very grateful

00:01:21.180 for that. Grateful to all of you who have picked it up. Some of you have read the ebook, some have

00:01:27.020 it in the old-fashioned way, which is my preference. Some are listening to the audiobook,

00:01:33.740 which Professional recorded, not me. And so thank you. Last night, E and I, I was back in the county

00:01:45.980 for the first time in days. So we went out to dinner to one of our favorite places, Flamin

00:01:51.700 Smith and Bloomfield. And as we were walking in, I pointed at a table and I said, that's the table

00:01:57.860 we were at with Alan and Jonathan when Donald Trump became president. And she said, what do

00:02:05.020 you mean? I said, well, that's where we were sitting when he was targeted with an assassination

00:02:10.020 attempt. And I turned to you guys and I said, it's over. Donald Trump's going to be president,

00:02:17.400 which of course he he was and um here we are again and she said yep okay we went in and like

00:02:25.780 an hour later we hear there's been another assassination attempt or what looks like it

00:02:30.740 anyway fortunately nobody lost their life uh last night unlike the previous uh event where um

00:02:38.680 somebody in the crowd tragically lost their life but man the united states they're just 1.00

00:02:45.040 fucking crazy just nuts and i don't mean trump i mean all of them the the gun culture stuff 0.99

00:02:52.920 um and i and i'm not reflexively anti-gun as you guys know i own guns i have many guns i know how 0.99

00:02:58.980 to use guns but you know i believe in gun safety locking them up separately trigger locks locking

00:03:07.340 up the ammo separately having you know the training to know how to use them anyway americans

00:03:14.960 are different than us um this week got our regulars back kareem assad and i talking about

00:03:22.680 the trump thing and protest culture and the hate industry uh brian lilly and i talking about uh

00:03:30.520 the trump stuff and canadian politics carl belanger and i talking about quebec politics a lot of

00:03:36.380 super important stuff happening in quebec guys and i don't just say there's somebody who was

00:03:40.480 born in montreal we need to pay attention to it because it has consequences for our future so got

00:03:46.140 that and i've also got lots and lots and lots of joyce manor and military gun military gun are

00:03:55.180 from los angeles joyce manor are from torrance california which ironically enough is where the

00:04:01.400 alleged shooter comes from and um they are just two amazing bands they started off as kind of

00:04:09.180 punk rock, hardcore. And because as it happens, you know, you get so good at your playing from

00:04:15.900 playing so often, you just end up sounding way more poppy and professional. And that was certainly

00:04:22.980 the case for these two bands when I saw them this week, along with Teen Mortgage, who were great,

00:04:28.320 and Combat at the Danforth Music Hall. I've seen Military Gun a million times. I've seen

00:04:35.680 Teen Mortgage before, but I had not seen Joyce Manor, been wanting to for years. And, um, such

00:04:42.160 a good bit, uh, such great melodies, such great songwriting. Um, so I'm going to play a whole

00:04:47.720 bunch of their stuff. Um, so the book, like if you're a normal human, you are looking for ways

00:04:55.500 to be immortal. You paint paintings, you sing songs, you build buildings, and some people run

00:05:01.700 for high public office. Of course, they figure they'll be remembered for that. Same with people

00:05:07.480 become soldiers or athletes or priests or rabbis or ministers or teachers or whatever. And if

00:05:13.400 they're any good at it, they'll be remembered for a while, maybe a long while. Lots of ordinary

00:05:19.160 people have kids. That's one surefire way to be kind of immortal, even if you don't cure the

00:05:26.200 calm and cold. Junior might. Me, like my colleagues at the papers I've worked at over

00:05:32.540 the years, I write stuff. Some of it's meh, meh. Some it's okay. Some I wish I could go back in

00:05:39.840 time and throw my typewriter in the lake and then jump in after the typewriter. My Gang of Four

00:05:45.620 review comes to mind. Presently, I'm flogging a book containing my writing. It's got 334 pages,

00:05:53.400 a spiffy cover design and it's been put out by the nice folks at penguin random house and it's

00:05:59.480 selling okay and and i liked what edna saint vincent malay had to say about putting out a

00:06:05.740 book she said quote a person who publishes a book willfully appears before the populace with his

00:06:11.020 pants down if it is a good book nothing can hurt him if it's a bad book nothing can help him end

00:06:17.880 quote. I love that. So it's early days. So I don't know if people think the book is good or bad.

00:06:23.880 I'll find out soon enough, I guess, but my pants are down. And I've typed out some other books

00:06:31.100 over the years. Some sold, some didn't. Some were not bad, I thought, but nobody else seemed to

00:06:36.460 think that. And some were not very good, I thought, and they sold. So go figure. Over the years, the

00:06:43.520 book flogging business has changed a lot, mainly because journalism has changed a lot. Back when

00:06:48.620 I started in 1992, newspapers had big fat classified sections and big fat sections about

00:06:55.920 automobiles. And they had not as fat book sections and book editors, but they had those.

00:07:02.160 So your publisher would pay for you to get on airplanes and go around the country to say smart

00:07:06.680 things about your book and into microphones. And they had book agents who mainly just drove you

00:07:13.940 around for interviews. And if you're lucky, your publicist would get you on Barbara Frump's TV show

00:07:19.580 or Peter Zosky's radio show. Being on Barbara or Peter, even for a few minutes, meant you could

00:07:26.660 sell a lot of books. Now, I haven't been asked by the broadcaster who employed Barbara and Peter,

00:07:33.640 CBC to come on. Now, this may be a coincidence, or maybe because I've put criticisms of the CBC

00:07:42.360 in my book. To be specific about it, I think they have platformed anti-Semitism repeatedly,

00:07:51.800 and I've said so out loud. So just a hunch, but I don't think they're going to be inviting me on

00:07:57.780 there to talk about my new book anytime soon. I'll let you know if I'm wrong, but I don't

00:08:04.180 think I am. Global, CTV, Bell Media, a bunch of podcasters, radio stations, Ben Moroney

00:08:11.620 and I talk about the book this week. Ben was very generous with his time, had me on for

00:08:16.800 a long time, so I've got that on this week's podcast. Newspapers in Israel have written

00:08:21.280 about it, and the United States, and of course in Canada, and most of the book flogging has

00:08:26.660 happened over a phone line or over a Zoom connection, because nobody really travels

00:08:31.800 the world anymore to push a book. Now, does this mean that nobody reads books anymore? Nope. That's

00:08:38.780 not what it means. Nearly a billion dollars worth of books were sold in Canada in 2022.

00:08:45.600 Just three years later, there were 1.15 billion in print sales alone, meaning not including e-books

00:08:54.800 or audio books. Those sell like crazy too. Fiction sells well. Romantic stuff. I don't

00:09:00.980 like mushy stuff. Kids books, YA stuff. I've written three YA books. You can go and buy them

00:09:07.180 if you wish. Most of the books are published by people who read them. Well, about 12% buy books

00:09:13.660 for gifts. Where are they buying them? Well, wonderfully, wonderfully. Canadians are buying

00:09:19.160 books at independent bookstores, of which we have many. And about one in five books get bought

00:09:24.740 at the independence, uh, and, and Indigo is the biggest player and they are terrific and very

00:09:31.880 profitable. I was in Indigo's main store in Toronto this week and Chris and his colleagues, uh, helped

00:09:38.260 me sign a bunch of books and get them displayed. And they had me post for a photo and, um, so they

00:09:46.020 were great too. So anyway, you want to be immortal, have a kid for sure. Climb a mountain, create a

00:09:52.420 masterpiece, cure herpes, or go write a book. Better yet, read one. It may give you the secret

00:10:01.020 of immortality.

00:10:22.420 Did you ever know?

00:10:24.480 Did you ever know?

00:10:26.700 Hated when your roommates home

00:10:28.620 Kids are playing in the street

00:10:30.800 Strike out looking for something to eat

00:10:33.000 Drinking talk and in the park

00:10:35.280 Hanging out till it gets dark

00:10:37.400 Goodbye kiss my heart explodes

00:10:39.800 Wonder did you ever know?

00:10:43.920 Wonder did you ever know?

00:10:46.520 I could see what you meant

00:10:48.740 How I don't even try

00:10:51.000 When you needed a friend

00:10:53.220 There was no one to find

00:10:55.460 Now we're nearing the end

00:10:57.680 And we're saying goodbye

00:10:59.560 Like a song in my head

00:11:01.960 Leaving nothing behind

00:11:04.420 Leaving nothing behind

00:11:08.600 Leaving nothing

00:11:21.000 And we're back, and we're back with Karim Asad.

00:11:28.640 I'm outside with the dogs, and it's beautiful and sunny,

00:11:31.860 and it feels spring-like.

00:11:33.820 And hopefully you're in a nice, quiet place and enjoying your week.

00:11:37.480 A little less crazy of a week than the one you had last week.

00:11:42.120 Are everything okay out of that incident that you unfortunately had to experience?

00:11:48.900 Oh, I'm all good.

00:11:50.120 I'm outside as well, enjoying a little bit of sun and it's shining.

00:11:55.080 So the world is good.

00:11:56.120 Good.

00:11:56.480 Mostly, sort of.

00:11:57.920 Yeah.

00:11:58.120 I don't know.

00:11:59.680 Well, last night we were all going about our lives and yet another bulletin came over

00:12:07.300 our devices that somebody had been, I guess they didn't take a shot at Donald Trump, but

00:12:15.440 that looks like the clear intention was to assassinate Donald Trump and it was like here

00:12:22.240 we go again it's Americans and guns in this case the intended victim being Donald Trump want to get

00:12:28.180 your take on it you know as a Canadian watching from afar but also somebody who's been paying

00:12:34.420 attention to the so-called protest culture and how it's orbiting all the time towards more and

00:12:41.280 our violence? I mean, this is sort of the natural endpoint of the political rhetoric that so many

00:12:50.360 people are bathing themselves in. And we don't have all the details. I think it's too early to

00:12:56.760 speculate. I've seen some information, but I don't know what's verified or what's not about the

00:13:02.500 shooter. But what I can say with certainty is looking at the reaction to this incident, that's

00:13:10.660 equally disturbing. And yeah, we were talking just before we got on the air about the normalization

00:13:21.340 of dehumanization and how we have reduced our perceived political adversaries into sort

00:13:31.140 of just these entities that need to be eliminated um and you know that that to me it it it undermines

00:13:41.900 the actual substance of arguments that one would have against trump and his policies and

00:13:47.860 as disastrous and murderous as those might be um when on an individual level you have people

00:13:54.720 taking the law into their own hands yeah no i i have the same view you know when i ironically

00:14:02.440 my partner and i were out for dinner last night to celebrate my book coming out and we were at

00:14:08.800 this restaurant that we had previously been at when there was the assassination attempt on trump

00:14:15.060 you know during the election and i looked at the table as we were walking in and say well that's

00:14:20.100 where donald trump won the election like it doesn't work these acts of violence they rebound

00:14:25.240 in the favor of the target don't they well yeah you now have a second uh epic meme of donald trump

00:14:33.780 looking sort of non-phased and people around him shocked and you know it's equivalent maybe not

00:14:40.340 exactly equivalent but similar to the one um at the first assassination attempt um where he has

00:14:46.140 the flag and the secret service are ducking and he has his arm up in the air um so that's going

00:14:50.440 to galvanize people um yeah and you know i tie it i i not tie it in directly but also in the news

00:14:59.300 this week was the spLC indictment and the allegation that some of their funds for the

00:15:07.080 southern poverty law center some of their funds were going toward people who were embedded and

00:15:14.660 potentially very active participants in sort of hate groups, the same hate groups that they

00:15:21.600 monitor. And to me, that is a huge part of what has happened over at least the past decade that

00:15:30.140 they've been in business longer than that. As far as turning citizens against one another,

00:15:36.860 kind of creating enemies for people to lash out their hatred, and Trump and his administration

00:15:46.180 are contemptible targets, right? And so it becomes easy, I think, to paint them with that.

00:15:54.480 But all of this is just, you know, at what point does it erupt into civil war?

00:16:01.560 Something worse. Well, you pay attention to this stuff all the time. It's actually

00:16:04.980 interesting that you mentioned the Southern Poverty Law Center. So, you know, in my previous

00:16:09.320 books, I've relied on some of their research. They've had fine research. But two friends of

00:16:17.560 mine, they're still two friends, decided, I've never told you this story, they were going to

00:16:23.100 set up something similar, the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. And they asked me if I wanted to be

00:16:30.000 involved and I wanted to know more about how they would operate.

00:16:34.880 And when I heard about this infiltration strategy, you know, pretending to be a

00:16:41.280 sympathizer to get information and so on, my response was, well, guys, number one,

00:16:47.180 that's a function of the police.

00:16:49.060 Number two, when the bad guys find out that you've lied to them, they will try 0.98

00:16:54.240 and kill you, right?

00:16:55.840 But number three, um, it just, it's not a good look.

00:16:59.520 So that's why I never had anything to do with the Canadian Anti-Hate Network.

00:17:03.580 I know I never told you that.

00:17:05.580 And, you know, that kind of approach to fighting hate, you and I know a little bit about fighting hate.

00:17:12.900 That's not how you do it, is it?

00:17:15.960 I don't think so.

00:17:17.160 I think that stirring the pot in that way actually would tend to create more radicalization and more danger.

00:17:25.540 And it is potentially a great business model.

00:17:30.300 But as far as the social benefit, you're correct.

00:17:33.800 That's a function of police.

00:17:35.160 When we blur those lines, and we have seen in Canada police relying upon research that comes out of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network that hasn't been well-founded, but it then has disastrous consequences for the targets.

00:17:50.720 and then media repeat these stories and then politicians rely on the media reports and the

00:17:56.280 police releases and you know it um this whole whirlwind is not necessarily based on truth

00:18:03.880 um and and you know i just my my take on as far as fighting hate um is you know sunlight is a

00:18:13.800 disinfectant um but you you can't manufacture um and you know uh i know that um one of the

00:18:23.720 founders or board members of anti-hate um prior to launching that initiative um was very active

00:18:31.560 in online forums um trying to i guess flush out people who are holding abhorrent or hateful

00:18:41.040 or potentially criminal views.

00:18:43.360 But in one of the decisions,

00:18:46.020 and this was under the Canadian

00:18:47.620 human rights legislation at the time,

00:18:49.640 the decision maker rightly pointed out

00:18:52.520 that, hey, like you maybe contributed

00:18:54.680 to some of this, right?

00:18:55.700 And it's not exactly entrapment

00:18:57.000 if you're not a state actor.

00:18:59.620 But when the major source of funding

00:19:03.460 is the state, it's just, it's so messy.

00:19:06.180 And I don't think it's helpful.

00:19:08.260 It's a bad learn.

00:19:09.200 Yeah, well, even when the state does it, you know, in the Grant Bristow case with the Heritage Front, Grant, it's not his real name, but he, you know, did he contribute to the end of the Heritage Front? No, I think actually the Heritage Front probably did more than anybody.

00:19:26.600 but it was um it you know it was a cause of a commission of inquiry and uh parliamentary

00:19:33.560 hearings and reports it's like should we be in this business should we be in the business of

00:19:38.780 funding bad guys and you know we can't even deal with like auto theft warren so no i don't think

00:19:46.540 we should be in the business of of this and i think as well of the nuttals in um in british

00:19:53.920 Columbia who were these Muslim converts or reverts, whatever, um, who got wound up and

00:20:01.640 then nearly blew up a synagogue, right? 0.99

00:20:03.700 Like, it's just, what are we doing here?

00:20:05.560 What are we doing?

00:20:06.780 Um, final thing I wanted to ask you about, um, so there, my book is out, The Hidden

00:20:11.780 Hand, and you are in it with your considered views about how hate, uh, in our streets and

00:20:18.800 online has gotten worse and the reasons why.

00:20:20.980 So I encourage everybody to check out what Karima has to say there.

00:20:24.940 But there's another book out this week that I think is really important.

00:20:29.980 And it's a book by a former Toronto homicide cop about prejudice, anti-black

00:20:36.080 prejudice, anti-Jewish prejudice within the Toronto police service.

00:20:40.380 And when I saw it, you know, we'd all heard the rumors and we all knew the,

00:20:45.180 that Hank was a very brave person, but when, when it came out, I was like,

00:20:49.640 aha okay well that explains a lot want to know what your reaction was to it and and you know

00:20:55.280 whether you think that it is so i had if i had an opportunity to attend the book launch i now have

00:21:01.700 both of your books that i need to read and properly analyze but the sort of initial

00:21:08.300 findings or feedback which is it's a memoir um he was very clear uh in stating that it's not a

00:21:15.160 hit piece on toronto police no this sort of naturally comes up in his experiences um and

00:21:22.140 unfortunately i have to say it tracks um you know it explains to a certain degree um why enforcement

00:21:30.040 hasn't always been observed as being even-handed um you know the idea that you could be making a

00:21:38.400 complaint to an officer who themselves harbor prejudice and unfortunately that that tracks with

00:21:46.480 some of my own experiences so you know very unfortunate if it is the fact that

00:21:55.600 political considerations and personal prejudice and bias has contributed to the landscape that

00:22:05.000 we see today in which just an enormous amount of police resources are spent monitoring the same

00:22:12.060 relatively small group of people. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, well, as you've pointed out many times,

00:22:18.820 the problem has gotten worse. What's the title of his book? I don't, I don't have a copy at the

00:22:24.860 moment. Yeah, the title of it is The High Road. The High Road. So everybody should check that out.

00:22:33.700 apologies to Hank, who I know is a listener and a follower. So everybody should check out his book

00:22:38.960 because it's very important. And what you do is very important. And I'm glad to hear that you

00:22:43.960 haven't had any new unpleasantness in doing your documentary work. So just enjoy this beautiful day

00:22:53.120 and hopefully beautiful week. And thanks so much. Thank you.

00:23:03.700 When you can't afford anything anymore, tell me how you gonna, how you gonna swim the shore.

00:23:09.700 When you can't explain the damage drawn to your brain, but it's clear that it's severe and it's here to stay.

00:23:16.660 Trey coming down the track and it almost gave me a heart attack.

00:23:22.840 Great Trey coming down the track and it almost gave me a heart attack. 0.92

00:23:28.380 One and all the dress, a pair of bony legs

00:23:31.380 Is it real? Can it feel when you bash it, babe? 1.00

00:23:34.540 When someone talks a lot, inside the cannabis shop

00:23:37.520 Hey, give me all the money, baby, no one gets shot

00:23:41.000 Trade coming down the track

00:23:43.820 And it almost gave me a heart attack

00:23:47.140 Trade, trade coming down the track

00:23:49.960 And it almost gave me a heart attack

00:23:53.500 You brought back tears of frustration

00:23:56.980 Side search for something to say

00:24:03.820 You tend to some obligation

00:24:09.280 And I'll just stay out of the way

00:24:16.180 It's me coming down the track

00:24:20.780 And it almost gave me a heart attack

00:24:24.060 And we're back, and we're back with Brian Lilly, who you can hear the birds chirping.

00:24:47.600 He's in lovely, sunny St. James Park in downtown Toronto, which used to be a bit of a shithole.

00:24:54.060 but it's a little bit better i don't want to give it a lot better well i don't want to give any

00:24:58.380 credit to olivia chow for anything oh no this started long before olivia chow trust me there 0.84

00:25:03.420 you go because you know the latest is she shut down the gardener and the transit system when

00:25:10.720 the raptors are in the playoffs and there was a jays game like and and there's a big uh calls

00:25:16.460 parade today and there's like five big events a tfc was playing um like we were just trying to get

00:25:24.220 to a friend's uh birthday in the uh west end yesterday and getting to and from there was

00:25:31.580 insane uh because you've got shutdowns everywhere uh the city's just a disaster it's just planning

00:25:39.900 folks oh we're going to shut down the gardener maybe don't shut down the ttc for scheduled

00:25:44.300 maintenance at the same time yeah no that's olivia chas toronto anyway um we'll see what happens to

00:25:51.740 her in the coming months but last night uh yet another shooting incident in the united states of

00:25:58.220 america um and fortunately nobody lost their lives but these happen every single day and all of us in

00:26:06.860 canada and the rest world just kind of look at them and shake our heads this case the intended

00:26:11.100 victim we guess we think was one donald j trump um what what do you think uh if anything about

00:26:20.380 what took place and what what insight can you give us into the american psyche because you

00:26:25.420 spend more time there than i do i just it's just like man they're never going to stop as it feels

00:26:30.940 like so um yeah i think trump was the the target this guy's 31 year old from torrance california

00:26:39.420 named cole thomas allen um new york post has you know the new york post new york times all over

00:26:47.180 this um all of them have talked to neighbors one neighbor telling the post i think he might be on

00:26:51.900 the spectrum but a nice quiet guy isn't it always a nice nice quiet guy yeah um he had a shotgun a

00:26:59.100 handgun and several knives and i believe i i did hear one report that he may have taken the train

00:27:05.740 from california to washington greatest terrific um maybe that's how you get your shotgun your

00:27:13.180 um california has some gun control regulations still not as strict as canada

00:27:20.220 um everything that the americans want the democrats want we have in canada and more

00:27:27.340 and um that's why i always say we don't need more in canada but obviously the states is a

00:27:31.980 different story yeah this guy was teacher of the month at the private school that he was a teacher 0.89

00:27:37.660 at great terrific sorry dogs are just in front of me that's not chloe by the way chloe doesn't bark

00:27:44.540 um just having a good job i was wondering if he was you sniffling or something making those noises

00:27:50.380 though i'm glad to hear it wasn't um well anyway it's just uh i mean trump reacted with uh calm

00:27:58.860 i thought as he did the first time there was a serious attempt on his life and i wish i wish he

00:28:05.660 was that calm all the time he definitely that like they're making the argument for his ballroom for

00:28:11.100 him aren't they yeah he went he went there right away um and said you know it'll be safer and you

00:28:17.180 know maybe it will be like it's just but it's like guys like the big picture like you give

00:28:22.620 you make it way too easy for crazy people to get guns you should really do something about that

00:28:28.860 that that is the eternal fight in america that will never happen the one thing that a lot of

00:28:33.880 canadians don't understand about the um uh the gunfight in the states is that like here most of

00:28:41.240 the the crime that happens with guns you get the mass shootings which often involves a rifle but

00:28:46.640 most of the gun crime that people worry about is committed with handguns and even democrats even

00:28:53.840 california democrats including the late senator diane feinstein we're adamant that you will not

00:29:00.020 take away their handguns yeah the fight in the states is is a very strange one it is indeed um

00:29:07.300 and i don't want to sound all pious about it because as you know i have many guns and i know

00:29:12.560 how to use them and i've had them for years and they're all duly registered and i've got my pal

00:29:17.480 I don't have a restricted PAL, but I've got a PAL.

00:29:20.520 And, you know, I know gun safety and gun storage and all the rules.

00:29:27.460 But it's, you know, it is harder to get a gun here.

00:29:31.000 And I think that on balance we've benefited.

00:29:33.960 Because we have as many people per capita as the Americans do.

00:29:39.380 It's just, you know, they have much more of a gun culture, as you say. 0.57

00:29:44.640 Well, enough about that.

00:29:46.180 um and you're hearing the beautiful bells peel behind me yeah i'm hearing it don't tell me

00:29:52.660 downtown toronto's not beautiful it can be it can it'll be more beautiful under brad bradford

00:29:58.480 that's my opinion okay um so um you know i wanted to ask you about i mean there's so much other

00:30:06.180 stuff going on uh including my book coming out in which people brian lily's in it giving us

00:30:12.360 insights into how the media deal with israel and uh gaza and terrorism all that so take a look at

00:30:21.660 the book and take a look at what brian has to say please please buy it you don't have to take it out

00:30:26.260 of the library if you don't want to um buy it yes so brian uh is a courageous uh writer and he takes

00:30:35.060 unpopular opinions and one opinion that he has taken in the past few days is that the ford

00:30:40.760 government was right to buy a used jet and he's defended it valiantly and had the crap beaten

00:30:47.980 out of me for saying that yes you have and so i wanted to give you an opportunity to convince us

00:30:54.320 all why you thought this jet now returned to bombarde um was a good idea right so um you will

00:31:04.960 note that i did not write about it at first um the uh the story breaks in the toronto star last

00:31:11.840 friday morning and a couple things why i didn't write about it and say anything at first uh jamie

00:31:17.720 wallace who used to be our publisher had a rule uh for us writers of the sun if the government

00:31:22.940 of the day walks something over to the star meaning they leak it to the star we don't touch

00:31:26.580 it yeah and and so i didn't touch it joe warmington jumped on it he didn't follow the jamie wallace

00:31:31.440 rule so i said i'm not i'm not chasing benzy's story i mean good on benzy um but yeah i'm not

00:31:38.200 touching that and the second thing was i went oh this is going to be controversial which means

00:31:42.840 i i i think it's the right thing it's going to be controversial i think they'll back away from it

00:31:48.100 and so the public finds out friday morning and by before noon last sunday um they they had

00:31:57.820 announced that they were getting rid of the plane. Why does he need it? Because this is a big place.

00:32:06.000 And, you know, Karina Gould, the former Liberal Cabinet Minister, ran in the last leadership

00:32:13.360 against Mark Carney. She was just tut-tutting Ford for you don't need a private jet to get

00:32:20.780 around Ontario. So I pulled the records and guess what she used to fly on when she was a Cabinet

00:32:25.540 minister to get around ontario the federal challenger jet yeah um but she was doing trips

00:32:33.700 like ottawa to hamilton which is right next to her riding in burlington the premier is trying

00:32:38.660 to go to places like sudbury uh timmins if you fly commercial there so the example i used in my column

00:32:46.500 you want the premier to go on a northern tour you want them to go to sudbury

00:32:49.780 Timmins, then Thunder Bay. The only way that you can do that commercially is you fly for the first

00:32:56.180 leg of the trip. You fly Toronto to Sudbury. He does an event, has some meetings, then he flies

00:33:00.920 from Sudbury to Toronto because there's no flight from Sudbury to Timmins. So he flies back to

00:33:05.400 Toronto, then flies from Toronto to Timmins. Then he has to fly back to Toronto to be able to fly

00:33:09.680 to Thunder Bay. All right. All right. All right. Okay. We get the point. But the point I think

00:33:14.640 other people were making was at a time when the number one issue with a bullet is affordability

00:33:21.300 and people's ability to get by was it not a bad signal to do this jet at this time

00:33:28.240 yeah so the optics suck i guess um but factually and realistically you can make an argument for it

00:33:37.680 i had people saying to me well this is why we have hallway health care um health care spending

00:33:42.180 under the ford government is up uh 9.9 over the last two years or just over 10 billion this year

00:33:48.600 we're going to go over 101 billion this is not affecting health care it's not affecting education

00:33:53.920 which is up uh about 3 billion over the last two years um but it was a bad signal and that's why

00:34:02.900 the premier changed his mind and they could have done something different and lied like quebec does

00:34:07.780 and said, these are for hospital patient transfers.

00:34:11.380 I couldn't believe that there were actual political journalists in Ottawa

00:34:14.840 claiming or going along with the Quebec government's plane

00:34:18.680 that this is not a plane for the premier.

00:34:20.740 These are for hospital patients and you can't compare them.

00:34:24.340 And Karina Gould made that claim as well in a video.

00:34:27.940 No, everybody that covers politics knows

00:34:31.300 whoever the Quebec premier of the day is flies on that plane all the time.

00:34:35.580 They've got three of them.

00:34:36.620 all right you're selling buddy but i don't know if any of our listeners are are buying so i guess

00:34:41.820 we'll find out in due course but i mean oh it's never coming back bill davis tried to buy it in

00:34:46.900 71 uh mike harris tried your guy dalton mcginty criticized him for it then got on the cane air

00:34:53.360 and said what the fuck was i thinking why did i ever criticize mike harris so um final thing that 0.84

00:35:00.740 i wanted to talk to you about you had predicted uh sorry i've got a puppy trying to drink my tea 0.97

00:35:05.240 here didi go sit down um you predicted some time ago and i wasn't sure i agreed with you on that

00:35:13.400 either that if the war lasted any significant length of time that that is the war israel and

00:35:22.920 the united states against iran it would be lethal for trump at the midterms uh well i think you

00:35:30.200 were right about that the numbers are the worst for trump i've ever seen with mega with his own

00:35:38.440 people with his own core they are really angry about the war they feel it is a betrayal

00:35:45.880 does he now so i guess the question is now that you know we're more than two months into this thing

00:35:51.640 even if the war ends next week um is does that give enough time for the republicans to scramble

00:35:58.680 back and save their asses in the midterms uh yeah if if it ends soon if it ends soon there's

00:36:05.880 enough time because people have short memories you you know the saying better than i do a week 0.94

00:36:11.020 is a lifetime in politics and so things can turn around but right now uh looking at real clear

00:36:16.340 polling direction of the country right track wrong track uh 34.2 percent say right track 60.2 say

00:36:23.100 wrong track. Presidential job approval rating, 40.5% approve, 57.7% disapprove. The

00:36:32.540 generic congressional ballot, it's now almost six points up for the Democrats. So all those things

00:36:40.940 are going to be bad. As I pointed out to you before, Americans hate both parties,

00:36:46.400 um and and that's not going to change so if he gets out of the war quickly is able to frame it

00:36:54.060 as a win he can turn it around but if he's stuck in this no it is you know i'm amazed he's kept his

00:37:00.200 base as long as he has on this yeah uh but they do keep saying this is different it's not a forever

00:37:04.900 war we're winning um we're going to get out of this but uh like i'd say he's got a few weeks

00:37:12.500 but he can't go into the summer with this war still going the way it is not a gas at the

00:37:17.580 per gallon what it is at the moment it ain't looking good anyway i saw a buck 68 nine yesterday

00:37:23.880 yeah we just had a 10 cent per liter gas tax cut by the feds you never know and it's still up at a

00:37:29.860 buck 68 yeah well you keep walking like a good socialist through the park and smelling the

00:37:35.460 flowers and you know the rest i'll go ahead in my jeep and drive around and just be like a regular

00:37:40.000 they're Canadian. I live in my 15-minute city, Warren. We ventured out this morning. We're

00:37:44.460 past the 15-minute section. This is the half-hour city that we're in now. Well, be safe.

00:38:10.000 I can hear you coming

00:38:19.160 So I hit by the couch

00:38:21.440 You were talking so loudly

00:38:24.060 I don't know what about

00:38:26.080 But you were drunker than high school

00:38:29.040 Self-conscious and sweet

00:38:30.940 I never ever felt so cool

00:38:33.980 Disguised in your sheets

00:38:35.800 But I'm a constant headache

00:38:38.880 I'm too sad a line

00:38:40.860 They try to make you a credit

00:38:43.520 You tell, no, not this time

00:38:45.980 I'm just a constant headache

00:38:49.080 A deathless device

00:38:51.040 You hang me up

00:38:52.660 I'm finished with a better bottle

00:38:55.960 Me no longer mine

00:39:08.880 And then you finally found me

00:39:18.540 Pretending to sleep

00:39:20.380 You said such nice things about me

00:39:23.220 I felt guilty and cheap

00:39:25.140 You took two steps to the kitchen

00:39:27.700 Just stared at the sink

00:39:29.920 I couldn't hold back a smile

00:39:32.420 I still wish I could've seen 0.99

00:39:34.720 You having sex in the morning 0.99

00:39:37.260 Your love was foreign to me 0.99

00:39:39.640 It made me think maybe human's not such a bad thing to be

00:39:44.640 But I just lay there in protest 1.00

00:39:47.820 Entirely fucked 1.00

00:39:49.640 It's such a stubborn reminder 1.00

00:39:52.160 One perfect night's not enough

00:39:54.640 It's just a constant headache

00:39:57.800 A two-sided line

00:39:59.760 They try to make you a credit

00:40:02.380 You tell, no, not this time

00:40:04.900 It's just a constant headache

00:40:08.040 A dead pet device, you hang me up

00:40:11.540 I'm finished with a better part of me, no longer mine

00:40:34.900 and we're back we're back with my friend carl belogier on a sunny sunday morning my friend

00:40:52.640 welcome to the show wanted to ask for having me again yeah well thank you we lots of stuff

00:40:59.020 happening in Quebec this week,

00:41:00.900 one of which has been the departure

00:41:03.160 of

00:41:04.700 Boularris, leaving the

00:41:06.840 NDP even smaller

00:41:09.040 than it was.

00:41:11.140 Tell us about that. Tell us about

00:41:12.740 Boularris, and is this significant?

00:41:16.820 Well,

00:41:17.180 it is significant, as Alexandre

00:41:19.100 Boularris is the last

00:41:21.040 survivor of the 2011

00:41:23.020 Orange Wave that hit Quebec.

00:41:25.580 He's the last Quebec MP

00:41:26.960 standing for the NDP, and losing

00:41:28.960 him is a big blow

00:41:31.120 for Harvey Lewis, because

00:41:33.040 one of his first challenges was to keep him,

00:41:35.380 to convince him to stay,

00:41:37.400 and the reason for that is

00:41:39.240 winning that seat again will

00:41:41.100 be extremely difficult for the NEP

00:41:42.900 who's pulling in the single digit in Quebec.

00:41:45.840 Not impossible,

00:41:47.080 mind you, because it is a seat,

00:41:49.060 Rosemont La Petite Patrie, which

00:41:50.460 municipally votes for

00:41:52.960 the Projet Montréal, the left-wing party,

00:41:55.880 provincially votes for Quebec

00:41:57.020 Solidaires, that's why he's jumping ship

00:41:58.960 to that party, and federally as well as NDP.

00:42:03.080 So there might be a chance if you find a big name,

00:42:07.000 a star candidate, for the NDP to retain that seat,

00:42:10.100 but it'll be a tough proposition.

00:42:13.620 What's he like as a person?

00:42:16.520 Oh, he's a very nice guy.

00:42:18.440 He's a very, very genuine guy.

00:42:21.120 He's the kind of guy who never hesitates to step in front of a microphone.

00:42:26.000 So he was a very good spokesperson for the NDP,

00:42:28.500 and he's very well-liked.

00:42:30.840 He comes from the trade union movement.

00:42:35.580 And, you know, I think for Quebec Solidaires,

00:42:39.060 it's a big catch because they also need help.

00:42:41.880 They also need a lot of help.

00:42:44.360 They are pulling last in Quebec right now,

00:42:47.280 and attracting Boulardis might give a sense of momentum to that party,

00:42:51.880 which has seen some trouble in the past few years.

00:42:56.180 Final question on the writing.

00:42:57.320 Who's going to win it when the by-election takes place?

00:43:00.960 Well, that's very interesting, because let's say the NEP will keep some share of the vote.

00:43:08.040 Who's going to squeeze in ahead is going to be key.

00:43:12.780 Now, the Liberals finished second in the last two elections,

00:43:15.700 but previously it's been the Bloc Québécois who's won that riding.

00:43:19.920 And so both parties will try their hardest to win it.

00:43:23.260 But more importantly, both their parties will try their best to make sure the NEP doesn't win, because what they do not want is the NEP to have a beachhead in Quebec, because especially for the Bloc Québécois, if the NEP were to surge again, if the NEP were to rise again and make some gains in Quebec, it would most likely be at the expense of the Bloc Québécois.

00:43:47.580 So they do not want to give them breathing space.

00:43:50.360 They want to push that beachhead away from Quebec and make sure they don't come back.

00:43:54.900 So that's going to be the game plan.

00:43:57.380 And for the NEP, if they lose that beachhead, I mean, it could take two decades to come back.

00:44:02.900 That's what it took last time.

00:44:04.540 Wow.

00:44:05.120 So turning our attention to Quebec, the provincial politics, Libman has got a piece in the Gazette saying all three of the main party leaders have got challenges they're currently facing.

00:44:16.320 not sure i totally agree um but it things are tight and there is some movement with it has

00:44:23.000 lately been favoring the qlp the quebec liberal party wanted to get your take of you know what

00:44:29.080 what are the challenges that all the party leaders are facing at this time well let's talk so start

00:44:35.440 with the premier christine frechette she um i mean she's stepping in a tough environment where

00:44:41.980 Our party has been dropping in the polls, and that's why Francois Legault left.

00:44:46.400 But she's kind of climbing it back a little bit.

00:44:49.920 You know, there's not a huge bump, but a little bump, as you expect when you get a new leader. 0.79

00:44:54.920 But their challenge is to get some kind of contrast, some kind of distance between her and the Legault government.

00:45:01.620 And it's tough when you form a new government and you name new ministers, and two-thirds of the people in there used to be Legault ministers, right?

00:45:10.220 So that contract is not really created.

00:45:12.440 It's hard to pretend that you are the candidate for change when that happens, but she's going to try.

00:45:17.920 And there's a few announcements that she's made, $700 million for the hospital here in the Montreal region.

00:45:25.800 She's created what she calls the Council of Regions.

00:45:29.620 So one MNA is representing each of the region, and they have direct access to cabinet with a dedicated minister for regions.

00:45:38.560 And I think that's key because the CAC won government twice because they got huge support in Quebec's regions, not in Montreal, a little bit in Quebec City, but mostly in the regions.

00:45:52.920 And so they're trying to regain that.

00:45:56.040 As for the Parti Québécois, well, the challenge is twofold.

00:45:59.200 On one end, you have a PQ leader that has been at the top of the polls, but is now being challenged by the Liberals and see a new CAC Premier in front of him.

00:46:12.200 So he's being challenged in a way that he has not been for quite some time.

00:46:16.820 But more importantly, when you ask Quebecers, who would you vote for today?

00:46:21.480 The Bloc Québécois is ahead by a couple of points, like two, three points over the Liberals.

00:46:25.700 But when you ask them, if the PQ was to drop its referendum promise to old one in the first mandate, they go up by eight points, and the gap climbs to 14, 15 points.

00:46:38.300 So it's a big problem for the PQ because they are adamant that they want to hold a referendum.

00:46:44.220 PSPP, the PQ leader, said, if I were to change my mind, I would look like somebody who doesn't have principles, so I'm sticking with it.

00:46:53.520 I'm not going to change it because of the poll.

00:46:55.700 But the polls don't lie.

00:46:57.760 People don't want a referendum, and it's an hindrance for the Parti Québécois.

00:47:03.320 Meanwhile, the Liberals have a smart, young, new leader,

00:47:09.360 and he's picking up where Pablo Rodriguez left things off

00:47:14.540 with the Liberals climbing back in the polls.

00:47:17.260 The big problem for them is that even though they're climbing,

00:47:20.840 they are not making much inroads yet with the Francophone voters.

00:47:24.920 So, you know, if you look at the horse race, it looks like they're neck and neck with the PQ.

00:47:30.980 But when you dig in numbers, well, they're going to win Westmount with 72% as opposed to 64%.

00:47:36.760 That's not helpful.

00:47:39.800 Not hard to do.

00:47:41.120 Well, then let's talk about Westmount and people who come from it.

00:47:44.580 Well, I guess I shouldn't be mean to Mark Carney.

00:47:46.400 He doesn't come from Westmount, but he appeals to people in Westmount.

00:47:49.180 we've been a one thing i've always i always worry about um because sovereignty is an ongoing

00:47:57.080 um feeling in quebec politics uh been born in quebec and i you know it just never goes away 0.98

00:48:04.540 how well you know right now it looks like you know the sun's shining out of mark carney's ass 0.96

00:48:10.780 and he can do no wrong and he's winning a majority through the back door and he's doing well how 0.94

00:48:18.460 How do you think—this is an unfair question to project ahead, but it's realistic—how well do you think he will do fighting a referendum if it comes to that?

00:48:29.400 Does he have the ability to fight that?

00:48:33.360 I'm a little worried about that, to be honest.

00:48:37.220 I don't think he has a lot of Quebec reflexes.

00:48:39.760 I don't know that he has a lot of Quebec instinct.

00:48:43.520 And we're about to enter a referendum cycle where the Prime Minister of Canada, for the first time, is not from Quebec, does not have that knowledge and understanding of the culture.

00:48:55.380 I mean, he's not completely oblivious.

00:48:57.280 I mean, I think he does care about national unity.

00:49:00.320 I think Mark Carney also does care about Quebec in some ways.

00:49:05.000 But, you know, you just need to look at the speech he gave at the Plains of Abraham.

00:49:09.580 Plains of Abraham, yeah.

00:49:10.700 that's that's worrisome to me because what he said and how he said it uh if he were to do that

00:49:19.480 during a referendum cycle during a period where people are actually paying attention to politics

00:49:25.080 it could be very hurtful to the cause of national unity um so i'm worried about that 1.00

00:49:31.240 uh but frankly i'm comforted by the fact that quebecers don't seem interested by it at this 1.00

00:49:38.740 time. Now, mind you, if you 1.00

00:49:40.680 turn back the clock to 1995,

00:49:43.060 the people didn't want

00:49:44.480 Jacques Parizeau to go ahead with a referendum,

00:49:46.860 but he did, and he moved forward,

00:49:48.980 and he brought on Lucien Bouchard

00:49:50.480 on his team, and it took off,

00:49:52.560 and it almost

00:49:53.220 ended up with a win for the

00:49:56.400 yes side. It was so close.

00:49:58.540 So, who knows what can happen once

00:50:00.460 that horse is leaving the barn, you know?

00:50:02.800 All it can take sometimes is a guy

00:50:04.620 with a spotlight and a cane

00:50:06.200 and a pretty good ability to give a speech

00:50:08.440 and things can change very quickly absolutely right exactly my friend thank you so much as

00:50:14.280 always for your wisdom and your insight and have a wonderful day and a wonderful week thank you

00:50:19.180 thanks warren we'll talk soon

00:50:21.100 had the worst ever so far

00:50:32.020 Got run over by my dream car

00:50:34.420 Spent forever in the ER

00:50:36.760 Slowly going insane

00:50:38.680 Lost my job at Lil' Caesars

00:50:41.680 Drinking whiskey cause my teeth hurt

00:50:44.140 My tuxedo was a t-shirt

00:50:46.500 But you know what they say

00:50:48.560 Well, whatever it was

00:50:50.520 All in the night

00:50:51.860 Yeah, whatever you want

00:50:53.220 Can't seem to care

00:50:54.280 It's only because

00:50:55.700 We're gone about to

00:50:56.700 So no matter how far

00:50:58.140 We're gone, we should go

00:50:59.140 Well, whatever it was

00:51:00.640 All in the night

00:51:01.640 Yeah, whatever you want

00:51:03.040 You can't seem to care

00:51:03.920 You see, it's only because

00:51:05.540 You've got a mess

00:51:06.500 So no matter how far

00:51:07.920 I'll meet you there

00:51:09.320 Push the boulder up the mountain 1.00

00:51:20.580 Throw your panties in the fountain 1.00

00:51:23.020 And your blessings you'll be counting 0.99

00:51:25.440 But you're paying to play

00:51:27.680 As the darkness was surrounding

00:51:30.300 Out of my heart began a pounding

00:51:32.800 You could feel the tension mounting

00:51:35.260 And I never did break

00:51:37.460 Well, whatever it was

00:51:39.500 I'll live without it

00:51:40.800 Yeah, whatever you are

00:51:42.180 Can't seem to care

00:51:43.240 See, it's only because

00:51:44.640 I forgot about it

00:51:45.680 So no matter how far

00:51:47.100 I'll meet you there

00:51:48.100 Well, whatever it was

00:51:49.500 I'll live without it

00:51:50.640 Yeah, whatever you are

00:51:51.940 Can't seem to care

00:51:52.940 See, it's only because

00:51:54.380 I forgot about it

00:51:55.500 So no matter how far

00:51:56.940 I'll meet you there

00:51:58.300 We are starting today with a long-form conversation

00:52:27.620 with somebody who deserves this much time.

00:52:30.320 Good friend of the show.

00:52:31.420 We haven't had him on for a while.

00:52:32.240 Actually, we talked to just a couple of weeks ago

00:52:33.680 at the launch of his new documentary, The Campaign.

00:52:38.300 And now the book, which it tackles very, very similar topics,

00:52:43.020 is that if you are somebody who's been living in the West

00:52:45.380 since October 7th, 2023, and wondered,

00:52:50.180 what am I watching?

00:52:52.380 What am I living through?

00:52:54.240 Am I witnessing a transformation of the country that I live in, the one that I thought was tolerant, the one that I thought we in which we had conversation instead of shouting at each other and issuing threats of violence towards each other?

00:53:11.800 If you have wondered what was happening, then one of the explanation may be in the pages of this new book called The Hidden Hand by Warren Kinsella.

00:53:21.580 Warren, welcome to the show.

00:53:22.680 Thanks for having me.

00:53:23.580 So let's go back to the film, which I loved.

00:53:27.340 I thought it was such an important movie to make.

00:53:30.500 And in it, you talk about this,

00:53:33.760 an orchestrated campaign that probably started

00:53:37.520 a long time before October 7th, 2023.

00:53:41.200 I'm sort of activated on that day.

00:53:44.140 So yeah, well, I mean, guys like you and me

00:53:47.740 have been around campaigns for a long time, right?

00:53:50.020 And the one thing you learn being around campaigns is how to spot one.

00:53:55.440 And, you know, the elements of a campaign, money, messages, volunteers, leadership, strategy, tactics, all of that stuff. 0.54

00:54:07.700 And what I saw after October 7th, 2023, so this terrible day where 1,200 Israeli men, women, and children, babies, were slaughtered by Hamas, Israeli women and girls sexually assaulted, hundreds kidnapped, hundreds more assaulted and grievously wounded.

00:54:31.780 on this terrible day, you know, far from Israel being sympathized with

00:54:37.700 and regarded properly as a victim around the world

00:54:42.160 where these protests happening, like in the first 10 days

00:54:46.600 after October 7th, there were 2,500 protests.

00:54:50.280 And what I was struck by, again, as a campaign guy,

00:54:53.140 is like, wow, they're using the same messaging,

00:54:55.280 using the same signage.

00:54:56.740 They're pretty disciplined.

00:54:58.680 And I spoke to political people and said,

00:55:00.400 this looks like a campaign and they were all like yeah that's a campaign yeah well i i remember

00:55:04.740 seeing an article that you had written in the toronto sun which you uh you you posted the

00:55:10.860 article and then you added to the top he said uh you said uh you know as a lawyer i believe if

00:55:17.120 these people um have broken the law they should be prosecuted and if they're not canadian citizens

00:55:22.260 they should be deported which i then reposted that with the with the header i co-signed this

00:55:27.860 And then I went to bed. And speaking of a campaign of being organized, a group of people online took that, jumped on it like a fat kid on cake. And they looked at my bio. And the only thing in my bio that they could latch on to was that I was a national ambassador for CNIB, the Canadian National Institute of the Blind.

00:55:47.440 And, you know, we're raising money for people who have to navigate a world that wasn't designed for them.

00:55:52.740 And they just absolutely doxed that company.

00:55:56.360 And they were losing money.

00:55:58.460 And this happened overnight.

00:56:00.000 I'm not even paying attention.

00:56:01.700 And next thing you know, this poor organization that doesn't have a crisis team had to say, look, we've got to suspend our relationship with you.

00:56:08.960 And I got on the microphone a few days later.

00:56:11.180 I was like, listen, you guys are thinking this is a victory?

00:56:13.440 All you've done is made it harder for this organization to raise money.

00:56:16.980 So congratulations. You took money away from the blind. But that was a level of coordination and sophistication. It was a blitzkrieg. It was a blitzkrieg how fast that happened. And that, as you said, that doesn't happen by accident. They were ready. They were organized. They were mobilized. 0.94

00:56:33.980 Yeah. I mean, another example of that, full disclosure. So I've helped and been associated with and advocated for Jewish National Fund for a long time. They're like one of the oldest charities in this country. Been around for more than a hundred years. And they do terrible, awful things like plant trees and make parks and help people out with their medical bills.

00:56:54.920 And they got decertified by CRA, wrongly, inappropriately, in my opinion, a couple of years ago.

00:57:02.460 So they decided to set up a new charity called Friends of JNF.

00:57:07.360 Before Friends of JNF even existed, Ben, like before they even did anything, 13,000 complaints to CRA.

00:57:15.720 The woman who handles CRA, the charity division, her mailbox was full.

00:57:22.360 Yeah. So the, you know, that's the point of the hidden hand is that, you know, the people on the other side, Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran and China and Russia, they are evil and malevolent, the message they're putting out there. But man, are they organized. Man, are they effective. And do they ever have a lot of money and people? And we got to take that seriously.

00:57:45.040 We have to take it seriously. But before we continue, let's take one moment to address probably the most annoying part of this kind of debate, which is when you and I sit here talking about the defense of innocent Jews and the defense of the Jewish community in Canada to live their lives free of intimidation.

00:58:07.580 that is that is a statement unto itself and yet there are forces out there that want to inject

00:58:15.440 into that statement all sorts of inference they want to say well that means that you stand against

00:58:20.280 these people that means you hate this group that means you believe in x y and z it's a i don't know

00:58:26.560 what happened to public discourse where making one statement automatically means a raft of other

00:58:33.400 things that you never said before and i'm it's so frustrating because i don't feel like like

00:58:37.960 things we can't communicate if what i say automatically implies a raft of things i

00:58:44.720 didn't how many times in the past two half years have you been called a baby killer yeah oh yeah

00:58:49.900 how many times have you been genocide genocide yeah right and this is what it's happened and

00:58:55.860 you know these people are not interested in a debate and by these people i mean those who are

00:59:01.740 anti-Semitic. It's not just anti-Israel. Like it's not anti-Semitic. This is a really important

00:59:07.760 point. It's not anti-Semitic to be against the decisions of the government of Benjamin Netanyahu.

00:59:13.980 They make, you go to Israel, as you and I have both done, you meet lots and lots and lots of

00:59:18.160 people. We're very angry. Benjamin Netanyahu too. But, you know, accusing individual Jews,

00:59:25.060 like happens in this city every single weekend at the corner of Bathurst and Shepherd.

00:59:30.860 where terrible, awful things are being screamed and yelled

00:59:35.020 and horrible signs are being held up, 0.91

00:59:37.780 to blame individual Jews who just live in that neighborhood

00:59:41.420 for the decisions of the Netanyahu government,

00:59:45.480 that's classic anti-Semitism.

00:59:47.660 And accusing them of killing babies and accusing them of genocide.

00:59:51.860 And not only is it a lie, it's just completely and manifestly wrong

00:59:55.840 and all of us have to stand up against it.

00:59:57.740 It's also, there's a great irony, the belief that Jews control the media, and yet when it comes to what we've witnessed since October 7th, it's decidedly not that.

01:00:09.720 If the Jews controlled the media, the narrative that we would be seeing on CTV, on CBC, on the BBC, it would not be what we've been reading and watching. 0.60

01:00:18.360 Yeah, that's one of the points I make in The Hidden Hand right at the start. 0.83

01:00:21.680 You know, it's like the gods played this enormous practical joke on the Jewish people is where these, they get accused routinely of running the media and technology and governments, the Zionist occupation government and their globalists and their international bankers, but then robbing them of whatever power they have.

01:00:42.900 So that now what they're experiencing is, you know, schools for little Jewish kids being shot up in this city one, two, three times and synagogues firebombed and neighborhoods being terrorized.

01:00:54.480 Like that's stuff that's happening right here in this city.

01:00:58.080 And to suggest that, you know, those people have any power, it must feel like a cruel joke to them because really they don't have much power.

01:01:06.420 If you look at how the police and prosecutors and politicians have dealt with them, they're not getting much sympathy or support at all.

01:01:14.340 Well, we're going to delve into the book a lot more in the next segment.

01:01:18.580 It's such an important book.

01:01:19.920 And again, I want to be clear, to read this book and to support the Jewish people in no way means you are against anybody else.

01:01:28.060 It's a false binary that seems to have been foisted on people.

01:01:31.580 I really wish there was more pushback on that, because if there was, there would be so much more coming together because I don't want anybody to feel marginalized or unsafe at all, ever.

01:01:42.020 And to come to someone's defense does not mean that you are looking to burn somebody else down.

01:01:47.460 But we've got much more with the author of The Hidden Hand after the break right here on The Ben Mulroney Show.

01:02:01.580 And your new leather jacket

01:02:10.760 You're somebody else

01:02:13.240 And it's not nice to meet you

01:02:16.280 In a fortress of suspects

01:02:18.940 Do you know leather jacket

01:02:21.720 Where nobody's now 0.98

01:02:24.240 Black and cigarettes 0.75

01:02:26.140 I empty out

01:02:28.620 I miss the way we talked before you went away to school

01:02:35.600 Now all you seem to say is, baby, how good it be you

01:02:41.360 I hate the way you're in it and looking at your phone

01:02:47.100 I hate the way I feel I'm dying when I'm alone

01:02:52.780 And you know, leather jacket, you're somebody else

01:02:58.100 And it's not nice to meet you in a fortress

01:03:02.780 Or something's true, you know

01:03:04.920 Leather jacket where nobody's now

01:03:09.180 A bag of cigarettes, I emptied out

01:03:28.100 guitar solo

01:03:58.100 Very happy to continue my conversation with good friend Warren Kinsella,

01:04:07.620 his new book, The Hidden Hand,

01:04:09.340 The Information War and the Rise of Anti-Semitic Propaganda.

01:04:12.460 Is it out now?

01:04:13.480 It is out tomorrow morning.

01:04:15.800 Tomorrow morning.

01:04:16.220 Congratulations.

01:04:17.040 Thank you.

01:04:17.620 We were talking during the break.

01:04:18.960 You said of all the books you've ever written,

01:04:20.440 this one was one of the hardest to get published.

01:04:22.960 Yeah.

01:04:23.160 Um, there is a lot of organized opposition to those of us who stand for what used to be a pretty basic principle, which is that prejudice and hatred shouldn't be experienced by any group, Jews or anybody.

01:04:38.640 And, uh, you know, I've represented over the years, uh, Jewish organizations, but Muslim organizations, Christian organizations, but what Jews have experienced over the past three years, um, is extraordinary.

01:04:51.800 You know, I've been tracking this stuff and writing about it, as you know, for 40 years.

01:04:56.940 I've never seen it this bad.

01:04:58.540 Yeah.

01:04:58.840 Never seen it this bad.

01:04:59.240 Well, you know, my dad, my dad in his study had a sign that I guess he purchased from,

01:05:04.940 I want to say it was from the 1920s.

01:05:06.520 I think it was from Toronto.

01:05:07.580 And it said, Irish need not apply. 0.82

01:05:10.860 And he kept that. 0.76

01:05:12.120 But he also, he also knew that by and large, sort of the arc of history bends towards justice

01:05:17.620 for almost everyone.

01:05:19.380 Like eventually we're going to get to a place where, you know, you saw the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, gay rights, trans rights.

01:05:27.060 There's forward progress.

01:05:28.200 Sometimes it's a step back.

01:05:29.520 Sometimes it's an explosion forward.

01:05:30.840 But by and large, we're getting to a place where we all will be treated with the dignity we deserve.

01:05:37.480 There's something about the Jewish exception where things get normalized and, oh, it feels like they are accepted and it feels like they are embraced.

01:05:47.320 until something happens a flashpoint brings us right back to the beginning and there's almost

01:05:51.900 this primal um uh either fear of or anger towards this group that always the patina of equality

01:06:03.520 always gets scratched away it's you know anti-semitism uh i've grappled with it too 1.00

01:06:10.080 you know over the many years because it's just so stupid like it's so dumb it makes no sense 1.00

01:06:16.320 but it does, you know, prevail. It does exist. Like it's existed as long as the Jewish faith 1.00

01:06:22.540 has going back to the beginnings of the Hebrew people. And I, in, in the hidden hand at the

01:06:28.780 start, I kind of try to figure out, okay, well, why is this happening? And why is it so bad right

01:06:33.480 now? And I think really it comes down to envy and resentment. And in politics, that's a very

01:06:39.740 powerful force. You know, when it's harnessed by a candidate and a big ad buy, resentment can

01:06:45.680 topple governments. And I think that's what Iran and its allies in China and Russia and Hamas and 0.86

01:06:51.640 Hezbollah and this alphabet soup of NGOs and nonprofits and charities have figured out is if 0.76

01:06:58.040 we can build resentment about the Jewish state, and then beyond that, the Jewish people, we can 0.98

01:07:04.520 win. And one of the things that they've done really successfully, especially online, is depict 0.98

01:07:11.120 Israel, this diverse, pluralistic state where about a third of the country is Arab or Muslim,

01:07:17.860 as the new South Africa. So if you oppose Israel to these young people who are mainly doing it, 0.67

01:07:24.000 you're not being anti-Semitic, you're being anti-racist. And it's been a really successful, 0.99

01:07:29.900 dishonest, but successful propaganda campaign. Yeah. I mean, and I wonder how far back that

01:07:35.520 the research went by that group by the hidden hand to realize yeah if we can if we can harness

01:07:41.800 misinformation on tiktok for example and so many so many young people are getting they're using

01:07:47.720 tiktok as a search engine right this is where they're getting their news from uh if if it will

01:07:53.560 supercharge any lie that you want to sell yeah and tiktok i mean all of these platforms it's not

01:08:00.300 just tiktok in fairness to them it's all of them yeah instagram and facebook and xx in particular

01:08:07.540 they're all terrible at it and that and it it's crazy when you think of it because if you look at

01:08:12.200 the end user agreement if you sign up for any of these platforms you have to promise not to promote

01:08:18.180 hatred and division and disinformation and none of them are enforcing it and they claim that they

01:08:24.680 don't have the resources for it but you know some of them have budgets bigger than some countries

01:08:29.000 So they absolutely can do it.

01:08:31.120 They just don't want to.

01:08:32.300 And unfortunately, the principal victim of this propaganda campaign, as I talk about in the book, is young people.

01:08:40.380 In this country right now, 41% of Gen Z, so Gen Z are like from 18 to 24, support Hamas.

01:08:50.560 They don't support Israel. 0.68

01:08:51.920 They support Hamas.

01:08:53.980 And so 41% of Gen Z, that's about 3 million people. 0.93

01:08:57.560 That's a lot of people.

01:08:58.760 Well, you know, I wonder, it's made me recontextualize a lot of questions I've had, you know, listening to nonsense terms like silence is violence and, you know, words are violence.

01:09:13.580 I always wondered where that nonsense came from, and I thought it was silly, but I wonder whether that stuff was planted in the ground in anticipation of stuff like this so that the lie would be easier to sell, right?

01:09:31.620 If if words are violence and then then that activates a certain type of of, you know, keyboard warrior to feel like they are doing something.

01:09:41.760 And, you know, I saw I saw a video online of, you know, one of those one of those right wing guys who's trying to have a provocative conversation on a university campus.

01:09:48.960 And, you know, not my thing, but it's also conversation.

01:09:52.800 And one one woman was so upset about this and that this guy was a neo-Nazi and she felt in her mind she was standing up against Hitler.

01:10:01.620 Like that she was doing noble work because in her mind, the words that he espoused were akin to Nazi propaganda.

01:10:09.520 And I feel the same thing happened here.

01:10:12.580 Like a lot of these kids on so most of them truly believe that they were on the side of good.

01:10:18.720 Otherwise, it wouldn't be.

01:10:20.060 We didn't raise that.

01:10:20.900 We didn't raise a generation of of of hate filled children.

01:10:25.960 So they had to believe they were on the side of good.

01:10:28.040 But in the absence of seeing real violence, then it must have been the words.

01:10:34.060 And that was planted in the ground a long time before.

01:10:37.140 Words are so important.

01:10:39.860 And hateful words precede hateful deeds always, always.

01:10:45.740 I've been tracking anti-Semitic jihadists and anti-Semitic skinheads for years.

01:10:51.560 And they always have leaflets that preach this homily of hatred.

01:10:56.780 All of them.

01:10:57.480 all of them. And you know, the words, the importance of words, repetition and catchphrases

01:11:02.860 like globalize the Intifada and genocide and from the river to the sea, you know, Palestine be free.

01:11:08.760 All those are just words, but what they share is a characteristic with cults, right? Cults know

01:11:15.220 that if you bring people in and get them into a cycle of words and catchphrases and refrains,

01:11:24.020 you can bend reality you can change the way people look at the world and that's in fact what these

01:11:30.180 guys have done and i talk about in the hidden hand they very much are like they operate like

01:11:34.340 a cult and it's very insular and you know there's an outside world so like at u of t when they had

01:11:40.640 their encampment in the center of campus for months and months and months if you were a jew

01:11:44.920 or somebody they suspected of being sympathetic to jews you weren't allowed in there it was crazy

01:11:49.960 to me. And they were allowed to continue. Yeah. Um, but as somebody, as you said, 0.99

01:11:53.520 who's been tracking this sort of thing for years, I would think that you would see this and you go,

01:11:58.900 okay, well, this is, this is the new iteration. This is the next, there's the next step. They've

01:12:03.300 just, they've modernized, they've gone online, they've gone digital, but this was something

01:12:06.940 that clearly you felt needed, uh, the treatment of an entire book. So what was it that you,

01:12:12.940 as you were unveiling it or discovering it, as you were witnessing that the hidden hand coming

01:12:18.300 into into focus what did you witness that you said okay this is not this is not what i've seen

01:12:23.460 before it was i was watching tv and i talk about this in the hidden hand um high school in san

01:12:31.600 francisco lowell high school um upper upper class kids um racially diverse and they came out um so

01:12:41.920 before Israel had even responded militarily to the attack

01:12:46.020 to October 7th, so it was 10 days after that event,

01:12:49.620 hundreds of these kids did a walkout at their campus

01:12:54.340 in San Francisco.

01:12:55.880 They had signage, professionally made signs.

01:12:59.300 They were using clearly, to me, talking points.

01:13:02.880 They had a whole strategy, and they absolutely dominated

01:13:08.080 news coverage because it was one of the earliest protests.

01:13:11.240 And I looked at it, I said, there's no way a bunch of 14-year-olds put this together.

01:13:16.120 And of course, and then I found out that was the case.

01:13:18.800 It was this group that has been regarded by the ADL as anti-Semitic,

01:13:24.340 provided these kids with talking points, provided them with the signs,

01:13:28.260 gave them training.

01:13:29.120 They gave the media training.

01:13:30.440 And they even said to them, if you get arrested,

01:13:33.500 we've got lawyers who will represent you.

01:13:40.880 I was taking on water

01:14:05.380 Trying to get back to land

01:14:08.620 I froze, I froze, I froze

01:14:14.520 Too busy trying to keep myself out of trouble

01:14:18.180 I just didn't understand

01:14:21.360 I froze, I froze, I froze

01:14:26.160 I thought you were waving

01:14:30.420 Turned out you were drowning

01:14:33.580 Really wish I could read your mind

01:14:39.480 I thought you were waving

01:14:43.140 Turns out you were drowning

01:14:46.380 Pull me down, just save me next time

01:14:52.400 Well, now I

01:14:59.960 Saw you through the window of another pretty house

01:15:03.040 I just thought you'd live there so I went and shut my mouth

01:15:06.560 I froze, I froze, I froze

01:15:12.000 Hanging off a cliff so you reach out my hand

01:15:15.920 You keep giving signals that I don't understand

01:15:18.760 I froze, I froze, I froze

01:15:23.760 I thought you were waving

01:15:27.960 Turns out you were drowning

01:15:31.160 Really wish I could read your mind

01:15:37.380 I thought you were waving

01:15:40.760 Turns out you were drowning

01:15:44.020 Pull me down to save me next time

01:15:50.040 Well, now I thought you were waving

01:15:59.980 Turns out you were drowning

01:16:03.180 Really wish I could bring your love

01:16:08.260 I thought you were waving

01:16:12.760 Turns out you were drowning

01:16:16.060 Don't be down, just save me

01:16:19.860 If you've been waiting

01:16:26.060 And waiting

01:16:27.200 And waiting

01:16:29.060 I'm continuing my conversation with Warren Kinsella, the author of The Hidden Hand, The Information War and the Rise of Anti-Semitic Propaganda.

01:16:43.400 Warren, the great irony to me, well, there's so many and there's a lot of sadness that any of this ever had to transpire.

01:16:49.460 But had October 7th not happened, the Israel was on the cusp of turfing Benjamin Netanyahu.

01:16:56.180 I mean, in the weeks, I want to say weeks before, I might be getting the timeline wrong, but didn't a full third of the country come out in protest to the changes he was bringing to the Supreme Court?

01:17:05.580 Yeah, he was trying to change the judicial system.

01:17:08.600 Yeah.

01:17:09.040 Kind of rig it in his favor because he's, you know, unbeknownst maybe to a lot of people here, he's facing three separate corruption trials.

01:17:15.440 So he's passed his best before date. 0.72

01:17:18.280 Like, you know, I advise politicians, as you know, and I would have said to him, hey, Bibi, time's up, pal.

01:17:25.500 Like you got half the country coming out and protesting against you.

01:17:29.100 But then, you know, this terrible event happened on October 7th.

01:17:32.700 So has he been a good wartime prime minister?

01:17:36.320 He hasn't been a bad one.

01:17:38.040 But the one thing I do talk about in the book,

01:17:40.980 based upon the excellent reporting of the New York Times,

01:17:44.200 is that he made a choice to buy peace with Hamas.

01:17:48.660 He actually facilitated the transfer of millions of dollars from Qatar to Hamas.

01:17:54.940 like suitcases bulging with cash the new york times found because he thought he could buy peace 0.75

01:18:00.520 with hamas who he thought that would never do what they did on the seventh and of course that

01:18:04.660 was a terrible miscalculation yeah it's uh it but now in the last last time the only time i've ever

01:18:10.120 gone to israel i talked to a lot of people and it feels like the the conclusion that a lot of

01:18:15.820 israelis have have reached be they left or right or apolitical is that any conversation about a

01:18:23.100 two-state solution is not palatable, certainly not in the short or the middle term.

01:18:28.220 Yeah, no, unfortunately, that is gone. And I think that was one of Hamas's objectives. 0.99

01:18:34.480 They saw Israel starting to develop an actual legal relationship with Saudi Arabia. They already 0.86

01:18:41.520 had one with Bahrain and other places. They wanted to stop that, and October 7th was one way they did

01:18:46.940 that so regrettably you know i think you're right um i think that is on hold but the other thing

01:18:54.080 that you know i've interviewed for our documentary the campaign and for the hidden hand the book

01:18:59.180 lots and lots of israelis you've talked to lots too and they have become so pessimistic about

01:19:05.300 their reputation around the world yeah and you know they i had so many say to me warren what's

01:19:10.880 the point yeah you know everybody hates us it's never going to change and it's like no no that's

01:19:16.120 not true. Well, I'm glad you went there because I want to pivot into sort of ending this on a

01:19:22.660 positive note. Tell me what you mean by that. I think that we share so much with the Jewish

01:19:29.600 people, with the Israeli people. They are truly a democracy in the middle of a sea of undemocratic 1.00

01:19:36.880 governments, some of which are quite dictatorial. That's number one. Number two, this notion that

01:19:42.640 they are the new South Africa is so false. It's so dishonest. You go there and you see Muslims

01:19:49.200 serving in the IDF. You see Muslims in the Knesset in their legislature. You see police officers who

01:19:55.940 are Arabs. Like a quarter of the country is Arab. And you see how diverse it is, how pluralistic it

01:20:02.980 is. And so that is something that Israel needs to actually have a word for it. They call it

01:20:09.700 hasbro we need to be better at hasbro which is telling their story and it's like yeah like you 0.95

01:20:15.420 guys are the most technologically advanced country in the world and you absolutely suck at

01:20:20.540 communications yeah and i you know i give them that criticism in the book is the bad guys hamas

01:20:26.140 and hezbollah and iran um they've they're evil and they've done terrible things but they are

01:20:32.360 super disciplined communicators but that's because social media is is the tool of the insurgency

01:20:38.400 right it's not the tool of the governing power and so in in that diet in that dynamic it works

01:20:45.420 well it's more it's more received that i i personally think that's why um pierre poly

01:20:49.540 was so effective against justin trudeau is that he was he he he leveraged social media

01:20:57.040 as a as an insurgent and then it just didn't work when the new guy came in uh but but but

01:21:03.840 look, I met a guy when I was in Israel who spoke, he wasn't Jewish, but he had been in all sorts of

01:21:12.800 key positions in government and in diplomacy and in the military. And he said, look,

01:21:19.840 is everything perfect in this country for my people? No. Sometimes do I feel like we are

01:21:25.340 not as well treated as we should be? Absolutely. So what do I do? I fight for it. I fight for it

01:21:32.360 I try to pull the levers of power.

01:21:35.240 I try to communicate.

01:21:35.880 I try to rally the troops.

01:21:38.460 And then I thought to myself, well, that's what happens in Canada.

01:21:41.340 Like if a group doesn't feel like they're getting their fair shake,

01:21:44.200 they will fight for it within the system.

01:21:45.900 That's how a democracy is supposed to work.

01:21:47.760 That is not a sign of weakness in that country.

01:21:51.600 It is a sign that the system is working because no one's ever going to get it right.

01:21:55.540 It's about striving to get it right.

01:21:57.680 And, you know, message, everybody talks about the narrative, you know,

01:22:00.880 what's the narrative and and the israelis um have a tough time because they are a democracy you know

01:22:07.260 and the there's a joke that israelis tell about themselves you get two israelis in a room you'll

01:22:11.380 get three opinions but you know there's one section in the book where i talk about the

01:22:15.820 mainstream media there are good and decent palestinian people and i've met yes talk to

01:22:20.460 many of them so have you but if you step out of line in gaza if you're a reporter there and you 0.96

01:22:26.180 actually try to tell the truth about Hamas you will be killed yeah they will kill you or they 0.73

01:22:31.540 will kill your family or they'll threaten you or they'll kidnap you that's what Hamas does yeah so 0.93

01:22:36.980 their message is singular like it's absolute message discipline because if you step out of

01:22:42.400 line yeah you could lose your life and so that's one of the challenges that Israel faces is they

01:22:47.700 are a democracy and in a democracy it's the beautiful thing about democracy is we have

01:22:51.860 lots of different opinions and which leaves it open to being exploited by by those cynical

01:22:57.380 powers by a hidden hand what do we do for that generation here that look i don't want to speak

01:23:04.840 i don't want to be condescending to them but there has there's an element of deprogramming

01:23:09.380 that has to happen how do we how do we reach them um our educational system has done badly

01:23:16.720 We're both at the post-secondary level and before that.

01:23:21.640 And we've seen the bad guys.

01:23:23.280 You know, the Jesuits taught me in Montreal.

01:23:25.440 And the Jesuits used to say, you know, you give me the boy until he's six and I'll give you the man.

01:23:30.000 And the bad guys in Gaza realized that a long time ago.

01:23:33.140 So they're very good at propagating a hateful message to children and young people.

01:23:38.340 So we need to take that back.

01:23:39.880 That's number one.

01:23:40.780 Number two, as you pointed out a few minutes ago, like the number one search engine for young people in Canada,

01:23:46.220 for Gen Z is TikTok.

01:23:48.320 It's not Google. 0.92

01:23:49.520 It's not Bing.

01:23:50.740 And so we need to say to those platforms

01:23:54.220 who make a lot of money out of us,

01:23:56.480 hey, guys, we're not going to let you operate

01:23:59.660 to the extent that you are now

01:24:02.040 until you enforce some basic rules

01:24:04.300 like telling the truth and not promoting hatred.

01:24:07.620 That would be the second thing.

01:24:09.280 And then I think the third thing is that politicians,

01:24:12.540 up to and including the Prime Minister of Canada,

01:24:14.800 need to do better, right?

01:24:17.380 We've got the laws in the books

01:24:18.800 and they need to be enforcing them.

01:24:20.640 And Mark Carney,

01:24:22.040 still, he's the only G7 leader

01:24:24.540 who has not visited Israel

01:24:25.920 after October 7th.

01:24:27.380 He's the only one. 0.92

01:24:29.680 And so Canada, like Spain,

01:24:33.020 like Norway, like Ireland,

01:24:34.600 has got a big anti-Semitism problem.

01:24:36.340 We're regarded as being

01:24:37.340 one of the worst places in the world

01:24:38.700 for anti-Semitism.

01:24:39.980 That's going to change.

01:24:40.700 Yeah, I don't know how that...

01:24:41.520 Are you optimistic for the future?

01:24:42.620 I am.

01:24:43.440 I am.

01:24:43.920 because um when i've been talking to people about the book uh and the documentary they're saying

01:24:50.460 you know finally this is good you know go ahead and tell that story yeah and i and i i just hope

01:24:54.820 that those who believe that they are fundamentally opposed to the way you and i think on this

01:25:01.400 specific thing i just i i want to get to a place where they are willing to read something or watch

01:25:06.500 your movie without immediately thinking like i'm i'm that person is the enemy that person represents

01:25:12.360 everything. So what? Go in there, watch it with an open mind, and let's have a conversation

01:25:16.540 afterwards. Absolutely. If we can just get to that point,

01:25:20.860 then so much more positive

01:25:24.540 things can flow. Because right now, it feels like we're log-jammed.

01:25:28.060 No, it does. And you put it so well. That's exactly what we need to do

01:25:31.920 as a country, and as a people, and as a civilization. Because, you know, the

01:25:36.240 cliche is, you know, they come for the Saturday people, the Sunday people are next. 0.56

01:25:40.280 They're not just after the Jews.

01:25:42.000 These bad guys want to destabilize democracy in the West.

01:25:47.220 And all of us have a stake in this.

01:25:50.160 The book is The Hidden Hand, The Information War,

01:25:52.480 and the Rise of Anti-Semitic Propaganda by Warren Kinsella.

01:25:54.880 It's out tomorrow morning.

01:25:56.380 Warren, thank you very much.

01:25:57.440 Congratulations.

01:26:10.280 Fill me up with pain 0.71

01:26:17.680 To make me insane

01:26:22.620 Cause if you like what it leaves

01:26:25.780 Put it on display

01:26:27.160 I can be what you want

01:26:29.200 Till you throw me away

01:26:31.620 And I'll fly

01:26:34.160 Just a touch

01:26:37.620 Slowly chipping away

01:26:43.080 It's never enough

01:26:45.620 Fill me up with smoke

01:26:49.860 I'll go, go, till you're ready to go

01:26:54.520 Cause there's really a point to things I've done

01:26:59.600 So fill my head up, give you what you want

01:27:03.660 And I'm fired

01:27:06.560 Just a touch

01:27:09.640 Slowly chipping away

01:27:15.320 Never enough

01:27:17.660 And out of desperation

01:27:22.380 Trying to duplicate it

01:27:27.440 And if I'm not what you're for

01:27:30.620 That I'm not what you wanted

01:27:34.700 And out of desperation

01:27:50.380 Try to duplicate it

01:27:55.420 And if it's not what you wanted

01:27:58.640 Then I'm not what you wanted

01:28:03.080 And I'm split

01:28:06.120 Just a touch

01:28:09.680 Slowly shifting away

01:28:15.080 Never enough

kinsellacast - April 26, 2026

KINSELLACAST 411： Hidden Hand book week and more! With Belanger, Mulroney, Sa'd and Lilley - plus lotsa Joyce Manor and Militarie Gun!

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