Louder with Crowder - Can a Christian be a Zionist: Gerald Morgan vs. Andrew Wilson Debate

00:01:00.000 The Jews. 0.64

00:01:02.000 Well, now that we've got all of your attention, Israel is the third rail. 0.97

00:01:07.000 I want to say new third rail, but I know it's not new.

00:01:10.000 Israel has been the third rail for a very long time, and it kind of comes and goes, and it seems like right now, anything that you..

00:01:17.000 do talking about the Jews makes you one of these two polar opposites. 0.98

00:01:20.000 Either you're a Nazi and you hate all Jews and they're responsible for everything, including the death of JFK and aliens, or you're a Zionist shill and Israel can do nothing wrong in killing, including killing five-year-olds in Gaza right now. 0.99

00:01:35.000 It doesn't really register on your radar. 0.98

00:01:37.000 But there is a huge, huge piece of ground in the middle where a lot of good conversation can happen and where you can actually get at the truth, but not a lot of people are talking about it.

00:01:47.000 And that's a very, very dangerous place to be.

00:01:50.000 Historically, we've seen that when people run to extremes, it usually ends very in violence and I want to avoid that.

00:01:57.000 I want to have conversations with people about Israel without having those slurs thrown at either one and I want to actually find some truth.

00:02:05.000 We need to be able to have honest, very straightforward conversations about these issues that involve Israel and plenty of other subjects, but Israel seems to be the flash point right now and we just don't seem to have that ability.

00:02:17.000 So that's what we're going to try to do today.

00:02:20.000 Let me set it up really quickly with a couple of interviews that recently Tucker Carlson has performed.

00:02:26.000 First was Mother Agapia, a Russian Orthodox nun, and if I'm mispronouncing that, I apologize.

00:02:32.000 And the interview sparked a lot of controversy.

00:02:36.000 We're not going to dive into everything that was said, but there was one topic in particular that I thought would be very helpful to address and to go in a little bit deeper and kind of try to figure out what it really means, where the church has gone wrong in some ways, the Protestant church, and where in some ways maybe they've got it right.

00:02:52.000 And that is Christian Zionism and what it really means and if Christians even actually know what it means. 0.61

00:02:59.000 So she kind of brought this term up in regard to end times eschatology, and I thought it would be a really good point of reference for us.

00:03:06.000 So here, take a look at the interview with Tucker Carlson.

00:03:09.000 Their belief tells them that that's okay.

00:03:11.000 We want to have this Third World War because we're going to be taken away and we'll be okay and we'll come back later after all the fighting is done. 1.00

00:03:19.000 That's sort of basically what their theology tells them. 0.66

00:03:22.000 And in the meantime, all the Jews are supposed to convert to their brand of Christianity or die in the conflagration. 0.99

00:03:30.000 And so I'm asking you this because you're a non. 1.00

00:03:34.000 That's not a Christian that's not a. 1.00

00:03:36.000 That's not a Christian belief, no, that or precept, and that's, yeah. 1.00

00:03:40.000 Hm.

00:03:40.000 Where any idea where that came from, that idea?

00:03:43.000 The rapture?

00:03:43.000 Yeah.

00:03:44.000 Well, like I said, originally the idea of having the Thousand Year Kingdom is a, is an heresy that was in the early church.

00:03:51.000 But the real push of all that comes from the 1830s.

00:03:54.000 James Darby, Schofield, or John Darby, Schofield, it's sort of a new theology that has no basis in the foundations of Christianity.

00:04:02.000 It has nothing to do with it.

00:04:06.000 So that may not be a point that really stayed out to you, but it was that stayed out to me.

00:04:10.000 And don't worry, we do have a very special guest with us.

00:04:13.000 We'll get to him in just one minute.

00:04:14.000 He is waiting very patiently, and we will dive into that.

00:04:18.000 But I also wanted to play another clip from Tucker Carlson, because he's been getting a lot of flack as someone who seems to be one-sided in his reporting.

00:04:25.000 You can have any guest on you.

00:04:27.000 You can really conduct interviews, I guess, any way that you want, But a lot of people are starting to pick up on trends with Tucker and call him out.

00:04:33.000 Sometimes rightfully so, sometimes not so much.

00:04:36.000 This is one that he got a lot of flag for.

00:04:37.000 And at the time, I thought this was actually a very, very fair exchange.

00:04:42.000 This is when he was talking with Ted Cruz, and Ted Cruz quoted Genesis 12:3 as his reason for supporting Israel.

00:04:49.000 Watch.

00:04:50.000 Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, Those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be curse.

00:04:58.000 And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things.

00:05:01.000 Of those who bless the government of Israel?

00:05:04.000 Those who bless Israel is what it says.

00:05:05.000 It doesn't say the government of, it says the nation of Israel.

00:05:08.000 So that's in the Bible.

00:05:10.000 As a Christian, I believe that.

00:05:11.000 Where is that?

00:05:12.000 I can find it for you.

00:05:13.000 I don't have the scripture off the tip of my.

00:05:16.000 You pull out the phone and use it.

00:05:17.000 It's in Genesis.

00:05:18.000 It's in Genesis.

00:05:19.000 So you're quoting a Bible phrase.

00:05:22.000 You don't have context for it and you don't know where in the Bible it is, but that's like pure theology.

00:05:25.000 I'm confused.

00:05:26.000 What does that even mean?

00:05:28.000 Tucker, I'm a Christian.

00:05:30.000 I want to know what you're talking about.

00:05:33.000 Where does my support for Israel come from?

00:05:35.000 Number one, because biblically we're commanded to support Israel.

00:05:39.000 But number two, hold on.

00:05:40.000 No, no, no, hold on.

00:05:41.000 We're commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.

00:05:44.000 We're commanded to support Israel.

00:05:45.000 And we're told those who bless Israel will be blessed.

00:05:49.000 But hold on, define Israel.

00:05:50.000 This is important.

00:05:51.000 Are you kidding?

00:05:52.000 This is a majority Christian country.

00:05:53.000 Do you define Israel?

00:05:54.000 Do you not know what Israel is?

00:05:56.000 that would be the country you've asked like 49 questions about.

00:05:59.000 So that's what...

00:06:02.000 The nation of Israel, yes.

00:06:04.000 And so is that the current borders, the current leadership?

00:06:06.000 He's talking about the political entity called Israel?

00:06:08.000 He's talking about the nation of Israel.

00:06:10.000 Yet nations exist, and he's discussing a nation.

00:06:12.000 A nation was the people of Israel.

00:06:13.000 Is the nation that he's referring to in Genesis, is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now?

00:06:19.000 Yes.

00:06:20.000 The political entity of modern Israel.

00:06:22.000 Yes.

00:06:22.000 And that is a nation.

00:06:23.000 You believe that's what God.

00:06:25.000 was talking about in Genesis.

00:06:26.000 I do.

00:06:27.000 But that country has existed since when?

00:06:30.000 For thousands of years.

00:06:31.000 Now, there was a time when it didn't exist and then it was recreated just over seven years ago.

00:06:34.000 But I'm saying, I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish people, God's chosen people.

00:06:45.000 That's not what it says.

00:06:47.000 Okay, Israel, but you don't even know where in the Bible it is.

00:06:51.000 So I don't even remember the scriptural citation.

00:06:56.000 That was rough.

00:06:57.000 Tucker seemed to have his questions well thought out, asked some very good questions.

00:07:03.000 But look, is he right to, I mean, is Ted right?

00:07:05.000 Do we need to support Israel, the modern state, as Christians?

00:07:10.000 What is Israel and who makes it up? 0.96

00:07:12.000 What is Christian Zionism?

00:07:14.000 And is that the real reason that Christians support Israel in the first place? 0.98

00:07:19.000 With me in just a second, we'll be Andrew Wilson to discuss this and many, many more topics.

00:07:24.000 But this brings us to our latest installment of Gerald Apologizes Apologetics.

00:07:32.000 Gerald Apologizes Apologetics.

00:07:35.000 It doesn't mean that.

00:07:37.000 It doesn't mean that, but whatever.

00:07:39.000 Okay, it's fine.

00:07:40.000 With me now, the man in darkness, shrouded in smoke, typically the Andrew Wilson.

00:07:51.000 Hey, look, where can people, before we get started answering all of these questions, which I'm sure will draw zero controversy from the internet, where can people find you and support you?

00:08:01.000 Yeah, you can find me on YouTube on the Crucible.

00:08:05.000 Pretty easy, just type in the Crucible and you'll see my content pop right up.

00:08:09.000 You can find me on Twitter at PaleoChristCon.

00:08:12.000 You can find me over at Rumble where I'm going to start doing the extravaganza again this week starting at, I believe, the 5 p.mm.

00:08:19.000 Eastern time slot.

00:08:20.000 Yeah.

00:08:21.000 So you can find me all over the place.

00:08:23.000 Fantastic.

00:08:24.000 You just said something.

00:08:25.000 You can search you on YouTube and your content will pop right up.

00:08:28.000 Must be nice.

00:08:29.000 Fantastic.

00:08:30.000 I'm not sure who you're paying for that, but you know, slide me a number.

00:08:34.000 It would be great if our content was like that.

00:08:36.000 Okay, so you saw the two different clips and they're two different pointing off points, but I wanted to kind of expand upon a conversation that you and I have had in very kind of brief detail, right?

00:08:48.000 We you and I talk every now and then when these issues come up.

00:08:51.000 Maybe sometimes you'll chime in to an ex post that I make or vice versa, and then we'll text or something like that.

00:08:57.000 And what I have seen as a Protestant is that there is this really, I guess, bad theology that's floating around there about the state of Israel.

00:09:07.000 And whenever I bring that up, whenever I try to have some clarification, I immediately get labeled a Nazi, which is really funny because the day before I'm a Sionist shill, which is really hard to do, but I take the hats off and get the checks wherever I can get them, I guess.

00:09:22.000 And I just kept thinking to myself, there must be a better way to have these conversations.

00:09:26.000 There must be a better way to try and figure out where the truth actually lies instead of all this extreme rhetoric and all the people just saying everything that Israel does is completely fine and everything that they do is absolutely horrible.

00:09:38.000 And they're trying to completely subjugate every other government on the planet and everything else.

00:09:41.000 And I'm just like, God, we're not getting anywhere with this.

00:09:44.000 And I've just historically seen it not work out well.

00:09:47.000 And one of the things I wanted to put to bed for Christians was what Christian Zionism actually is and what the Bible actually says about it.

00:09:53.000 But you actually posed a really good starting point right before that.

00:09:58.000 And that's kind of the crux of the whole issue is that does Israel actually protect Jews or that having the modern state of Israel or does that put them at more risk?

00:10:09.000 And is that why people are mad?

00:10:11.000 So what was your thinking with that, Andrew?

00:10:13.000 And tell me what your opinions are.

00:10:16.000 Well, I did a debate with a pretty well-known Christian apologist.

00:10:21.000 Well, now Christian apologist.

00:10:23.000 He's converting over to orthodoxy, I guess at some point, catechumen now, where we did this debate on Christian Zionism and went through all of this.

00:10:32.000 So the first thing to point out is the reason that you have so much trouble having this conversation at all is because of organizations like Kofi, which have their tendrils in everything trying to make sure that all Protestant apologetics revolve around the Ted Cruz framing there.

00:10:52.000 The Ted Cruz framing being that Christians have this kind of moral ought to support the modern state of Israel when in fact we don't.

00:11:01.000 So tell people that Kofi, that's John Hagee, right?

00:11:04.000 That's his organization that he leads.

00:11:06.000 Yeah.

00:11:06.000 So well, Kofi, Kofi has more members, I believe, than Israel has people in it.

00:11:12.000 It's true.

00:11:13.000 So that's true.

00:11:13.000 I think it's over ten million people.

00:11:15.000 Yeah, over ten million.

00:11:17.000 And this kind of theology, there's lots of paychecks, uh, which are switching hands.

00:11:22.000 You can find out a lot about Kofi.

00:11:24.000 Anyone who wants resources on it, I can, uh, you can just DM me.

00:11:27.000 We'll send it over.

00:11:28.000 There's a kind of rabbit hole to dive into.

00:11:35.000 Correct, yeah.

00:11:36.000 And I would rather stay on the idea, I think where this begins is with eschatology.

00:11:42.000 Now, Gerald and I kind of have a fundamental disagreement here, but I guess before we dive into that, why do you think eschatology is not kind of the crux?

00:11:50.000 Because now you've got to I do, I do, you've got to bring it back.

00:11:53.000 So I think there's just a fundamental misunderstanding from the views that I have seen.

00:11:59.000 So I, as a Christian, don't believe that what she said, Mother, is it agapia, agapia?

00:12:06.000 I don't want to mispronounce it, be insensitive, but the agapia, I believe.

00:12:09.000 Agapia, okay.

00:12:10.000 That what she said was completely accurate.

00:12:11.000 She was asked a question.

00:12:12.000 He's a nun, man, she'll forgive you. 0.99

00:12:17.000 Perfect.

00:12:18.000 Yeah.

00:12:19.000 Well, I don't know.

00:12:19.000 I might say something where she's like, you know, I'm not going to forgive you.

00:12:22.000 That's, you know, I'm not going to hold it.

00:12:23.000 I'm not going to send, but I'm also not going to forgive you or I'm going to do it in private, so you'll never know.

00:12:27.000 No, what I'm saying is that she was asked a question about the harpazo, the, you know, the, um, uh, uh, uh, rapture.

00:12:34.000 And so I then heard her pivot to the millennial kingdom.

00:12:38.000 And I was like, well, hold on.

00:12:39.000 Those two things are, are not connected necessarily.

00:12:41.000 They don't have to be connected.

00:12:42.000 They are, they're around the same time frame.

00:12:44.000 They are eschatology, but you can believe in no rapture at all.

00:12:49.000 and still believe in the millennial kingdom, right?

00:12:50.000 So I didn't understand why she pivoted.

00:12:52.000 So one I was like, well, that doesn't that seems like she was asked a specific question about where this comes from and she points out Derby.

00:12:58.000 Well, she went to Derby after she went to the millennial kingdom and that being an heresy in the early church. 0.93

00:13:03.000 And I know that that was that was said an heresy in like the three something's at one of the councils.

00:13:07.000 And so I thought like, okay, well, I understand where that comes from, dispensationalism, right?

00:13:13.000 So you start to see Israel in a different light, but I thought like that's not necessarily why Christians support Israel because a lot of times they point back to Genesis 12, 3 and it's completely disconnected from their eschatological views, right?

00:13:27.000 But I don't really, but not really.

00:13:29.000 Let me let me let me let me let me walk you through it at least from the logical basis.

00:13:33.000 This was the argument that I presented primary argument against Christian Zionism. 0.92

00:13:38.000 Would you agree with me that any No, because if I do, I'm screwed.

00:13:41.000 I have no idea what you're going to say.

00:13:43.000 Well, would you agree with me that any Messiah, which is named by Israel to be a new Messiah, is going to be in the spirit of Antichrist? 0.83

00:13:53.000 It would be Antichrist, yes.

00:13:54.000 It would be Antichrist.

00:13:55.000 Not maybe not the Antichrist, but the spirit of Antichrist.

00:13:58.000 Lowercase Antichrist, yes.

00:14:00.000 Yeah, yeah, right.

00:14:01.000 And is going to have to denounce Jesus as being a false Messiah, which puts them immediately against all Christendom, yes, for sure.

00:14:09.000 All of them, all Protestant. 0.96

00:14:11.000 There's no debate.

00:14:12.000 All, yeah, yeah, no debate there.

00:14:14.000 Even the Mormons, even the JWs, all of them, right? 1.00

00:14:17.000 All of them are going to be like, okay.

00:14:19.000 Everybody would be pissed off universally.

00:14:21.000 It's a unifying thing.

00:14:23.000 Yes, everyone's going to be upset.

00:14:24.000 That's going to be the spirit of Antichrist.

00:14:26.000 So then why would a Christian Zionist who knows that and knows that the Temple Institute there and Kofi are moving towards naming Messiah? 0.88

00:14:35.000 Can Ted explain that to me?

00:14:36.000 So my critique, and I saw that, I don't see that in their documents.

00:14:42.000 So the Temple Institute has a spokesperson in 2010 that did say that they are looking.

00:14:47.000 to do that, not as something that they are that they have to do.

00:14:50.000 But so here's my understanding of it.

00:14:52.000 Maybe correct me.

00:14:53.000 Millions and millions of dollars.

00:14:54.000 They get millions of dollars, but not to name a Messiah.

00:14:56.000 So that's where I disagree with you.

00:14:58.000 I think the Jews are still looking for Messiah. 1.00

00:15:00.000 That doesn't mean that they're looking to name him immediately.

00:15:02.000 And here's my proof for that.

00:15:03.000 They've had many people come forward over the years and say, I'm Messiah.

00:15:07.000 They've not opened arms to him, including the guy that actually fulfilled all the prophecies.

00:15:11.000 And I'm like, okay, I don't think they're ready to do it.

00:15:14.000 So they're just moving towards the spirit of the temple.

00:15:17.000 No, I think they're moving towards creating a temple.

00:15:18.000 But see, I think this is where it starts to get a little muddy because I agree with you that if they named Messiah., that would be a problem.

00:15:26.000 Yeah, but they're but what's the purpose of building the temple, right?

00:15:30.000 It doesn't have anything to do with the Messiah to them.

00:15:32.000 Yeah, it does.

00:15:33.000 Nothing to do with us.

00:15:34.000 What about Christians? 0.82

00:15:36.000 Christians, yes, but we already know who the Messiah is, and so that's their problem to deal with God. 0.97

00:15:39.000 I don't care if they have a temple or not.

00:15:41.000 They're still within our theology, this is a sign of what?

00:15:45.000 The temple.

00:15:46.000 The third temple being rebuilt, yes.

00:15:49.000 What is that a sign of?

00:15:50.000 It's really irrelevant to Christians, right? 0.99

00:15:52.000 It doesn't affect how?

00:15:55.000 Okay.

00:15:56.000 When, when you So I want you to look at this in totality.

00:15:59.000 Okay.

00:15:59.000 So and why I think that this has to do with Eschatology.

00:16:02.000 See, I believe that Christian Zionists and all Christian Zionists are accelerationists. 0.98

00:16:08.000 They're trying to accelerate their eschatology.

00:16:13.000 They're trying to accelerate the coming of excitation.

00:16:16.000 So they're trying to anticipate the coming of excitation.

00:16:17.000 Sorry, the second reason, if you ask them, why is it that you want to move towards naming Antichrist?

00:16:23.000 Why is it that you want to support people who are moving towards naming Antichrist?

00:16:27.000 Now you can say, Wait a second, Andrew, they're not naming one right now.

00:16:31.000 So what?

00:16:32.000 The entire religion and the entire state and all of the religious Jews are still moving that direction. 1.00

00:16:38.000 They're not moving towards Christ, they're moving towards the Antichrist. 0.64

00:16:42.000 So if that's the case, why would we support that?

00:16:44.000 Well, what all Christian Sionists claim is that that's part of biblical prophecy for Christians.

00:16:51.000 That stuff needs to come to pass in order for the events in Revelation to take place.

00:16:58.000 And so what they're doing is they're trying to accelerate what you would consider Armageddon and the end times, right?

00:17:04.000 So I would show how it's not so how it's not related to Eschatology?

00:17:09.000 So I would I would disagree with So first let me let me split these things into just two pieces.

00:17:13.000 One is the accelerationists and those who are not.

00:17:16.000 I grew up in this church and I've never heard that before in my life, never, not one time.

00:17:21.000 I know it exists though.

00:17:22.000 So I'm not saying that it doesn't.

00:17:23.000 But what I'm saying is, I don't know if there and maybe you might have some statistics on this, but who of the Christian Zionists, who would be accelerationists and who wouldn't be, right? 0.65

00:17:33.000 Because for me, when I define Christian Zionism and we can get down to that, I think I have a segment on that here in just a moment.

00:17:39.000 Well, what other reason could they give?

00:17:40.000 So what other reason?

00:17:41.000 It's not, it's not saying that.

00:17:43.000 So I'll give you the reason that I would give in my current view of eschatology.

00:17:47.000 The temple exists in my view of eschatology.

00:17:50.000 The Jews rebuild the temple.

00:17:51.000 There's a there's a peace treaty with Israel.

00:17:54.000 The Jews rebuild the temple.

00:17:55.000 There's the abomination that causes desolation and it's in the temple.

00:17:59.000 Okay.

00:17:59.000 I don't think it is my job or Christian's job.

00:18:02.000 And the Bible doesn't give any indication that we are supposed to help hasten that at all.

00:18:06.000 It just is.

00:18:07.000 Agreed.

00:18:09.000 That's the view of most people.

00:18:11.000 But then what's the purpose of supporting a land which is moving?

00:18:15.000 So if you're the idea here is God's blessing Israel, this is what Ted Cruz is saying, right?

00:18:20.000 God's blessing Israel and blessing the people who bless Israel, right? 0.74

00:18:24.000 But he's the spokesman for a lot of people with this view.

00:18:27.000 God's blessing you because you bless Israel.

00:18:31.000 Okay, but why are we supporting Israel if they're moving towards Antichrist, meaning moving away from Christ instead of towards Christ? 0.78

00:18:37.000 I don't understand.

00:18:38.000 Why would we do that?

00:18:39.000 What would Ted Cruz's response be?

00:18:41.000 We as Christians are moving towards that, right?

00:18:45.000 Because that's what God commands us to do, and that's going to lead to the events in Revelation.

00:18:49.000 That's going to lead to these events.

00:18:51.000 He's not going to hurt himself as far as eschatology goes.

00:18:54.000 But that's the listen, is it the view?

00:18:55.000 Is it the only logical way it can go?

00:18:58.000 What other reason would they have for doing it?

00:19:00.000 Well, no, they would think, I think Genesis 12.3, if you misinterpret Genesis 12.3 to think that you are supposed to bless the current nation state of Israel, including its government, which I think is very troubling that people would think that necessarily, that in itself is enough.

00:19:14.000 Like you don't have to have any other cause.

00:19:16.000 to support Israel.

00:19:17.000 Why are you supposed to do it?

00:19:18.000 Because God commands you.

00:19:19.000 It doesn't matter.

00:19:19.000 It doesn't matter why God commands you to.

00:19:21.000 It doesn't matter.

00:19:22.000 He just said it.

00:19:22.000 Why does.

00:19:23.000 Yeah, but I think it does.

00:19:24.000 But does baptism hold on, but does baptism save me?

00:19:26.000 There are verses that make it seem like it does.

00:19:28.000 There are verses that seem like it makes it not.

00:19:30.000 You know what?

00:19:30.000 I don't care.

00:19:31.000 You know why?

00:19:32.000 Because Jesus commanded me to do it.

00:19:33.000 Therefore, I am going to do the same thing here.

00:19:35.000 If they believe God is commanding me to bless Israel, I will bless them.

00:19:39.000 It doesn't matter what that results in.

00:19:41.000 It just matters that God told me to do it.

00:19:44.000 I think twelve three is enough, but I understand that you can.

00:19:49.000 So I'm trying to follow this logical step one, right?

00:19:53.000 Premise one.

00:19:55.000 God wants us to bless Israel from their view, right?

00:19:58.000 Yeah.

00:19:58.000 And Israel, according to Ted Cruz, is who?

00:20:01.000 The modern nation state, modern government.

00:20:03.000 He, he, he, he went ahead.

00:20:05.000 He went ahead and acquiesced all those points.

00:20:07.000 You agree with that, right?

00:20:08.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:20:08.000 Okay.

00:20:09.000 So, he's saying, God wants us to bless this current nation right this second.

00:20:14.000 Now, what does that mean?

00:20:15.000 I can only assume that blessings mean support, whatever they need.

00:20:18.000 Like if we could transfer that, by the way.

00:20:21.000 Yeah, I don't think any of them can.

00:20:23.000 No, right?

00:20:24.000 But I think that we can make some inferences here which are rational.

00:20:28.000 Blessing them probably doesn't mean, like, leaving them at the mercy of their enemies and things like that, right?

00:20:33.000 Blessing them.

00:20:34.000 Yeah, defending them against attacker and stuff.

00:20:36.000 Yeah, something like that.

00:20:37.000 Yeah.

00:20:37.000 That makes sense to me.

00:20:38.000 That would be the inferences that I would make there.

00:20:40.000 And I think most people would make there.

00:20:42.000 So what you're really saying is that God doesn't just want us to bless them, but to defend them, right?

00:20:48.000 To assist them, to do all these various things, to move our power structure towards being in obedience and compliance with their power structure.

00:20:57.000 That's what it essentially means by blessing them.

00:21:00.000 I wouldn't go that far.

00:21:01.000 I don't know that they believe that fully, but I'm trying to figure it out because I don't think it's, this is part of the problem.

00:21:06.000 I don't think it's very well defined on their side.

00:21:08.000 I don't think they could very well tell you, like like, okay, well, I can come to you right now and tell you you need to give money to the temple.

00:21:15.000 But if Ted Cruz is sitting there saying we need to give a bunch of money to these guys, we need to assist them in any way possible, how is it?

00:21:22.000 I mean, how is that idea of blessing not moving into compliance with the wills of Israel?

00:21:27.000 Who gets to determine how they're blessed, right?

00:21:30.000 I think that it's going to be Israel who gets to be the determiner under Christian Zionism as to how they're blessed. 0.91

00:21:36.000 Maybe because the Bible does talk about what Christians' duty to bless, and we'll talk about Christian duties towards Israel here in just a minute.

00:21:43.000 And I don't want to, I don't want to step on future topics in just a second, but it does.

00:21:48.000 Listen, I understand that line of thought.

00:21:50.000 I think it's very rational and I think it makes sense, but I don't think it's necessary.

00:21:55.000 I don't think that's where people are right now.

00:21:57.000 I don't think people are thinking like, I have to align the power structure in the United States with Israel to be able to bless the people of Israel.

00:22:04.000 I think most people would think, well, if I give money to the support of Israel, just to the general fund or something like that, or if we help them militarily, if they get attacked by other countries.

00:22:13.000 And some people would even say the three billion dollars a year is part of what we should do.

00:22:17.000 I don't necessarily agree with that.

00:22:18.000 I think we should probably pull almost all of that, if not all of it, back and from all of their enemies that we're supporting as well.

00:22:23.000 That would be great.

00:22:24.000 Keep that money home.

00:22:25.000 But that's part of my problem.

00:22:27.000 is that these things to me are disconnected.

00:22:29.000 They're not necessarily flowing into each other just because they support Israel because of Genesis.

00:22:34.000 Well, but I don't think we've made that case yet.

00:22:36.000 I think we've made that case.

00:22:37.000 Well, here, Let me try to make a better case.

00:22:39.000 So okay.

00:22:40.000 Do you agree with me that basically every six months Benjamin Netanyahu gives a big speech somewhere about how all the Jews in Israel are on the verge of annihilation.

00:22:49.000 There is by the tendency.

00:22:50.000 Yes.

00:22:51.000 Yes.

00:22:52.000 Basically every six months they're always on the verge.

00:22:54.000 Iran is about to nuke them. 0.65

00:22:55.000 They're someone invaded.

00:22:57.000 Someone's about to destroy Israel every six months, right? 0.87

00:23:00.000 Right.

00:23:00.000 What is he banking on there with that?

00:23:02.000 What is Kofi banking on there by saying these speeches?

00:23:07.000 Right.

00:23:08.000 They want money to flow in, things like this to flow in, military aid to flow in.

00:23:13.000 The idea here is you're not blessing Israel if you're not participating with Israel.

00:23:19.000 You see, they're almost going to be annihilated.

00:23:20.000 Yeah, but you almost went to Scripture.

00:23:22.000 They were almost going to be annihilated last week and the week before.

00:23:24.000 It doesn't, none of this is scriptural.

00:23:26.000 It's all indoctrination.

00:23:28.000 And we're talking about Christians. 1.00

00:23:29.000 This sucks. 1.00

00:23:30.000 Yeah, I know, but none of it's scriptural, but it's all indoctrination. 0.98

00:23:34.000 But the thing is, when Ted Cruz says Bless Israel, he does mean that.

00:23:37.000 He does mean if we need to send troops against our enemies, we will.

00:23:41.000 If we need to send missile defense systems, we will.

00:23:44.000 If we need to send treasure and blood, we'll send that too.

00:23:46.000 But that's what he's saying.

00:23:48.000 Yeah, so I agree.

00:23:49.000 I agree with all that.

00:23:49.000 That makes sense to me, right?

00:23:51.000 My thing is that I think Ted could base his entire argument on his misunderstanding of Genesis, wherever it is, according to him. 1.00

00:23:57.000 Somewhere in the Genesis, if you pull up the Google's and whenever you use the in front of something, you're an idiot. 0.99

00:24:02.000 But the Genesis. 0.99

00:24:03.000 The Genesis or the Google's.

00:24:05.000 Right?

00:24:06.000 So I think he would point to that and be like, that's it.

00:24:09.000 And that's the kind of eschatology that I have heard of.

00:24:13.000 It's not that the Christians need to do anything.

00:24:15.000 I mean, that's almost like the view of Iran.

00:24:18.000 Like they have this kind of apocalyptic eschatology where the conflict around the world globally will bring back the tw back the twelfth imam, right? 0.87

00:24:25.000 So that's the beginning of their eschatological book.

00:24:28.000 And people were like, well, you said they're a death cult, they're going to blow themselves up.

00:24:31.000 I'm like, well, no, it's not they that's going to die, it's the world being in conflict.

00:24:35.000 Like there is a connection there.

00:24:36.000 I don't see that in Christianity though.

00:24:38.000 Maybe we're putting the cart before the horse.

00:24:40.000 Let's backtrack and kind of define some terms.

00:24:43.000 Sure, right?

00:24:44.000 So first, when you say eschatology, what do you mean by that?

00:24:47.000 The study of the End times or the things of the End times.

00:24:50.000 Okay.

00:24:50.000 And you would include Revelation.

00:24:52.000 Revelation, Ezekiel, a bunch of different places that have small references, large references, Thessalonians, things like that.

00:24:58.000 Yeah.

00:24:59.000 Okay, so got it.

00:25:01.000 So now the audience knows that too.

00:25:02.000 And then when you say Zionism, would a fitting definition of Zionism, at least in modernity, and I would even argue in its inception, be that the modern nation state of Israel, you support the existence of the modern nation state of Israel, that is Zionism.

00:25:18.000 That's fair.

00:25:18.000 I don't think there's any debate about that being kind of the basis.

00:25:21.000 I know some people have additional things they throw in it, but yeah, absolutely.

00:25:24.000 Okay.

00:25:24.000 So if you're a Christian Zionist, you have to support the existence of the modern nation.

00:25:30.000 So if somebody comes out every six months and says the existence of this thing is about to not exist anymore, right?

00:25:37.000 Then you're under the obligation as a Christian Zionist to support the do what? 0.65

00:25:43.000 Whatever the Bible tells you to.

00:25:45.000 Well, if you're a Christian Sionist, though, by definition, you would be a Christian who believes that the nation state of Israel needs to exist. 0.63

00:25:53.000 Not only has a right to, but needs to exist.

00:25:55.000 So if that's the case, if they come out and say, Hey, every few months we're about to not exist, the Iran is about to nuclear us, the Turks are going to invade, the Muslims are, you know, blowing us up in the street, the Palestinians are stabbing our children in the face, whatever it is, right? 0.77

00:26:10.000 The Christian Sionist, the Christian Sionist, though. 0.97

00:26:11.000 The Christian Sionist, though. 0.98

00:26:14.000 Yeah, the Christian Sionist says what? 0.91

00:26:16.000 No, the, no, we have to support the right to exist.

00:26:18.000 Blood, treasure, everything else.

00:26:20.000 Now, I do think that that moves into the idea of eschatology, especially because I do think that they believe, Christian Zionists do believe that it's through this support that they're going to be blessed from God and that these things are necessary for the end times to come about. 0.52

00:26:39.000 And I do think that they're trying to accelerate the end times.

00:26:42.000 I think that the whole point of searching out these red heifers and doing all these things is for the purposes of the acceleration project.

00:26:49.000 And that's what I think it is.

00:26:51.000 Maybe.

00:26:51.000 So I saw the red heifer thing.

00:26:52.000 And for those of you who don't know, that's how they have to be able to burn a pure red heifer.

00:26:56.000 I don't think they've had those for very long.

00:26:58.000 They got them from Texas.

00:27:01.000 Texas saved the wine industry when a phylloxera went through in France.

00:27:04.000 You're welcome.

00:27:04.000 Saved the world.

00:27:06.000 Basically, yes.

00:27:08.000 And apparently our red heifer are going to be used to conscribe the implements of the temple and the temple itself.

00:27:14.000 So that's a really big thing.

00:27:15.000 If they don't have that, they can't really build it.

00:27:17.000 But I would say that none of this necessarily, and I really mean that, none of this necessarily means that Christians are trying to be accelerationists.

00:27:26.000 Again, that's a very new thing for me to be Christians.

00:27:31.000 Christian Zionists, I think that their only justification if I were to walk them through this logically, and I can tell you why I think this when I asked my debate oppononent in this debate, I said, so even if it's the case that one third of the nation currently supports movement towards Antichrist, we should support him. 0.95

00:27:48.000 He said, yes, yes.

00:27:50.000 Why?

00:27:51.000 Because there's a preconditional there.

00:27:52.000 These things need to happen for for, and Charlie Kirk, by the way, has said this openly, these events prophetically need to happen for the end times to be ushered in anyway.

00:28:03.000 Well, but Charlie Kirk, I do think there's an accelerationist agenda.

00:28:06.000 Sorry, I didn't mean to talk over you, but just because those events need to happen doesn't mean that I'm the one that's going to make them happen.

00:28:12.000 Okay.

00:28:13.000 So you can, you can.

00:28:14.000 But you're not a Christian Sionist. 0.86

00:28:16.000 But I would have said probably more so specifically at two churches ago.

00:28:23.000 There was a church that I went to where I ran into this quite a bit.

00:28:26.000 They support Israel even with, you know, people kind of splintering off and man, if you haven't had a prayer shawl and you haven't done these things, you really have never connected to God.

00:28:34.000 And I'm like, well, hold on, let's talk about this a little bit because that's not really scriptural.

00:28:38.000 I don't understand what you're talking about.

00:28:39.000 But I would have said, I would have said what Ted Cruz said, Those that bless Israel will be blessed.

00:28:43.000 Those that curse Israel will be cursed.

00:28:44.000 And that's not what Scripture says.

00:28:46.000 Just to be clear, twelve three says that if they bless you, he's talking about Abraham and he's talking about a people.

00:28:51.000 That's very clear.

00:28:52.000 Actually, this is a really good segue here.

00:28:53.000 So let's explore this.

00:28:56.000 When you were that person who would have answered the way Ted Cruz did.

00:29:00.000 Yeah.

00:29:00.000 If a guy like me said, Okay, what does blessing them mean?

00:29:06.000 You would probably give the same answer of, Yeah, you got to support him and this and that.

00:29:09.000 I would probably say mostly the prayer side of things.

00:29:11.000 I mean, obviously, I couldn't move government, but I've never felt compelled to give financially to purely Israel related goals.

00:29:19.000 Like missionaries in Israel, yeah.

00:29:20.000 You know, I felt financially moved to give it to commercial.

00:29:26.000 This is in support of movement towards Antichrist, movement towards the naming by a man.

00:29:32.000 by Jews of what we would consider false Messiah. 0.68

00:29:36.000 There's no if, answer, but about that.

00:29:38.000 You'd have to cede that point.

00:29:40.000 What would your answer have been from that, Gerald?

00:29:42.000 Well, if someone had told me, because at the time I was very, very into studying Eschatology because I was, I was specifically teaching a class called The Christian's Response to Islam.

00:29:52.000 And I was teaching how Islamic Eschatology and Christian Eschatology are actually incredible in that they overlap and they're exactly inverse, right? 0.99

00:29:59.000 With the characters and their attributes and everything else.

00:30:01.000 So I was into that.

00:30:02.000 I would never have said that I thought that this would have been a push towards Antichrist.

00:30:07.000 Supporting Israel would have necessarily meant that I was supporting a push towards Antichrist. 0.95

00:30:11.000 I still don't believe that that's necessarily the case either because I don't think it is I don't think it is absolute that my support for Israel is going to push them to name a false Messiah.

00:30:23.000 I see it as something that God has commanded me to do.

00:30:26.000 So when I pray for the peace of Jerusalem as commanded in the Psalms or if I pray or if I live my life in such a way as Romans 11 says when Paul is telling you like make them jealous of who that's supporting Israel in my mind.

00:30:37.000 It's not a financial thing and it's not pushing for any Antichrist or Temple or anything that can be misconstrued.

00:30:43.000 So at that time, I probably would have told you like pushing for Antichrist or we pray for any other group other group that's moving towards Antichrist?

00:30:50.000 I would pray for every single other group that's moving towards Antichrist. 0.99

00:30:54.000 I would pray for all of them.

00:30:55.000 What's special about Israel?

00:30:56.000 Nothing.

00:30:56.000 That's my whole point.

00:30:57.000 Like, my whole point is like, I feel like Christians have kind of messed that up. 1.00

00:31:00.000 Like, I pray for them like I pray for everyone else.

00:31:02.000 Okay.

00:31:03.000 You know, God, God is not done with them.

00:31:05.000 So then there's no special, there's no special blood here.

00:31:07.000 There's no special nothing here.

00:31:09.000 I mean, God is not done with Israel is a very kind of vague term.

00:31:14.000 And I've said it a number of times and I don't exactly, I haven't dived to the depths of what that exactly means.

00:31:19.000 But my belief is that there's a reason that and this is where maybe we would disagree on eschatology.

00:31:26.000 Is it safe to say that you probably hold more of an orthodox position on eschatology that most of the book of Revelation has been completed up to about the twentieth chapter or so?

00:31:35.000 Well, look, I'm not a specialist in orthodox eschatology.

00:31:39.000 That's a study all in and of itself.

00:31:42.000 It is.

00:31:43.000 The thing is, though, what I will say is this, and you can, there's people I would recommend actually to have discussions on eschatology.

00:31:53.000 The things that I mostly focus on these days are mostly church history and the ideas that, especially now in the last year, have become very politically relevant to dive into what's going on with what church fathers said about who Israel is, who the people are of Israel are, what Christianity means, what our obligations are, especially when it comes to other nations, including any perceived Jewish nation, right?

00:32:18.000 And no one anywhere in church history can you find anyone, any Christians anywhere talking about how if Jews establish a nation, then that's what Israel is.

00:32:28.000 They always considered Israel to be us.

00:32:31.000 We are the spiritual continuation, right?

00:32:34.000 That's what Christians are.

00:32:35.000 We are the spiritual continuation. 0.99

00:32:37.000 You hear it from other than Galatians 3, you son of a gun. 0.78

00:32:42.000 Most people don't know that, Andrew.

00:32:43.000 Like that's, so listen, I'm telling you, I had this, so people that have pitched replacement theology as this word, I think have done a very effective job because there are a lot of people that think the Jews are responsible for every single ill that the world has ever heard of that would use replacement theology as, yes, the church replaced Israel to mean that God does not have any future plan to the Jews at all and that they were never special. 0.60

00:33:09.000 Paul dispenses with that in Romans.

00:33:13.000 Don't be arrogant.

00:33:14.000 Are you kidding?

00:33:15.000 The natural branch can be thrown off.

00:33:17.000 Yeah, and we don't follow replacement theology.

00:33:19.000 You don't.

00:33:20.000 That's what I was going to say.

00:33:20.000 Yeah, it's not.

00:33:21.000 I don't think it's a fair kind of critique.

00:33:23.000 It's not.

00:33:23.000 It's not fair., but I understand what you're saying.

00:33:26.000 But the idea here is just this question is old.

00:33:31.000 It's an old question.

00:33:32.000 It's very, it's a very difficult one to even ask, which is who are the Jews?

00:33:37.000 Who are they?

00:33:38.000 Well, but that's easy.

00:33:39.000 And here's why I say that.

00:33:41.000 Not the bloodline part of it.

00:33:42.000 That's a little bit more complicated because that's harder, right?

00:33:44.000 Yeah, it's way more, way more complicated because by the numbers, I believe more of the Palestinians that live there have more Jewish blood than maybe some of the Askenazi Jews or anyone else that might claim to be the Jews of that land.

00:33:55.000 That's fine.

00:33:56.000 Yeah.

00:33:56.000 And you can have that conversation, but Galatians 329, I'll just read it.

00:34:00.000 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. 0.66

00:34:03.000 That makes it very, very, very, very clear.

00:34:05.000 Like who is Abraham's seed?

00:34:07.000 Who are the sons of Abraham? 0.51

00:34:09.000 And I think what they were trying to say is like, guys, this isn't, we didn't start a new thing.

00:34:13.000 This is the continuation of the thing, which means we were all a part of this.

00:34:17.000 If, if you're God outside of time, the church is the church throughout the Old Testament too, right?

00:34:23.000 It's not, it's not a new thing that we've created.

00:34:25.000 It is just the thing.

00:34:26.000 And well, I think you can also find this, it's not just there, but I mean, there are tons of references moving into it.

00:34:32.000 You have Malachi 111. 0.98

00:34:34.000 God promises his name shall be made great among the Gentiles who across the world will offer incense, the pure sacrifice to him, the church is the fulfillment of that sacrifice. 0.95

00:34:43.000 That's what it is.

00:34:44.000 So the thing is, though, is that you have to dispense with dispensationalism, right?

00:34:53.000 And then you can't use words like that, Andrew.

00:34:56.000 You're better than that.

00:34:57.000 Yeah, but the but the but the idea here is this, Kofi will always be running, and so will probably Mossad, Israeli intelligence, everyone else will probably always be running counterpropaganda against both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church because And only half of them deserve it, and we know which one.

00:35:17.000 Yeah, well, because they don't.

00:35:20.000 follow this Protestant form of theology.

00:35:23.000 And this nun was completely correct when she pointed this out. 1.00

00:35:28.000 We don't follow that form of theology.

00:35:30.000 And so that is an existential threat to places like Kufi, as you see these traditional churches beginning to gain a lot of ground in the United States. 1.00

00:35:38.000 Their percentages are beginning to increase.

00:35:41.000 And as kind of support wanes for Israel, you're going to see a lot more of the kind of the megalopower preachers preaching more of this type of gospel.

00:35:51.000 Because if they can't bamboozle you into support through victimhood, they're going to try to to bambooze you into supporting through your theology.

00:36:00.000 And that's what's actually going on, I think.

00:36:02.000 Yeah, and look, I don't feel like this is the driving, this might get me in trouble.

00:36:09.000 I don't feel like this is the driving kind of problem with dispensationalism that a lot of people do.

00:36:14.000 Like, let me say it the reverse.

00:36:17.000 Is this the only problem that you have with dispensationalism?

00:36:19.000 No, of course not.

00:36:20.000 Okay, so I didn't think so, but I think that's why a strong piece of bad theology has a tendril which destroys all the branches of theology.

00:36:28.000 So that's why having a strong root leads to good theological branches.

00:36:33.000 Bad roots have bad theological branches because you have to reinvent the truth.

00:36:36.000 You can get further and further away from the truth very easily.

00:36:39.000 So I definitely agree with that.

00:36:41.000 So in dispensationalism, that's a topic for another time.

00:36:44.000 But I imagine that I would have grown up in fairly dispensational churches.

00:36:50.000 But I was never guilted into giving to Israel. 0.53

00:36:53.000 I was never guilted into supporting Israel.

00:36:55.000 We never had Kufi representatives in any of the churches that I went to.

00:36:59.000 And I was very heavily involved in some of these churches, some very big kind of mega churches by a lot of people's standards.

00:37:04.000 But what I hope the audience so far, what I hope you guys have gotten is it's okay to talk about what the Bible actually says.

00:37:14.000 It what Scripture says, but when you immediately go from, you know, someone like Ted Cruz, like, if you're just making an honest argument, well, I thought that Genesis 12:3 said that if I bless Israel that I'll be blessed.

00:37:30.000 It's okay to correct and be like, actually, it's saying that if you bless Abraham and his descendants, and okay, let's look to the New Testament to see.

00:37:37.000 Very Protestant point of view here, I know.

00:37:39.000 I'm not going to look to tradition as much, though I don't hold tradition as worthless.

00:37:42.000 I actually hold it as very valuable.

00:37:45.000 But what does the Bible say about the people that are Israel?

00:37:48.000 Okay, it's very clear.

00:37:49.000 Okay, Paul helps us out here.

00:37:51.000 Galatians, fantastic.

00:37:52.000 Because they were wr resting on their Jewishness for salvation. 1.00

00:37:56.000 And he's like, guys, that's not going to do it.

00:37:59.000 Like, that is, you have to accept Christ, otherwise, nothing of it matters.

00:38:03.000 So don't, don't go down that path.

00:38:04.000 But if you go and if you don't have that conversation with someone and you immediately go to the synagogue of Satan, Revelation argument, that's like, well, okay, well, like, you're not going to convert anyone that way because aren't theoretically to some degree, everyone who denies Christ a part of the synagogue of Satan?

00:38:21.000 Essentially, they may have a different branch that they got to it, but the root is Satan, right?

00:38:25.000 And it may be the atheistic branch or it may be the, you know, I'm going to adhere to only the Old Testament Judaism branch or whatever.

00:38:31.000 It's all the synagagogue of Satan. 0.97

00:38:33.000 So why be sensational about it?

00:38:35.000 Not you, but the people that make that argument.

00:38:37.000 And it just, it derail the conversation before it can get started.

00:38:40.000 Well, because this has great political power.

00:38:44.000 So, you know, this type of theology itself has massive political power.

00:38:48.000 Let's not hit ourselves.

00:38:49.000 It does.

00:38:50.000 If you want to get things like abortion moved and things like that, who are you going to tap into?

00:38:54.000 You're going to tap into Christians. 0.96

00:38:55.000 Women. 0.81

00:38:56.000 You're not going to tap into a bunch of blue haired leftists, right?

00:38:59.000 You're going to tap into Christians. 0.96

00:39:01.000 And by the way, for women, there's like a bit more support on just all female polls for abortion than against, right?

00:39:08.000 So you have to offset this with Christianity. 0.83

00:39:11.000 So whenever these different places can politicize the religion and point to it as a you ought to do this thing and just so happens to coincide with exactly what I politically desire, right?

00:39:25.000 You've got to be somewhat wary about that.

00:39:27.000 And in this case, I see that the government of Israel has spent millions of dollars canaling to the Temple Institute that Kufi has used back channels and this is publicly available information.

00:39:39.000 Though it's very difficult to prove how much they've sent, it's very clear that Kufi has sent tons and tons of money, which has ended up in the hands of the Israeli government.

00:39:50.000 Again, I don't think that these things are even particularly controversial to say.

00:39:54.000 No, no.

00:39:55.000 The thing that is, the thing that is, though, controversial to say is to say this, that as a Christian, you have zero moral ought whatsoever to support a nation state, an ethnonationalist Jewish nation state, because they take the name Israel.

00:40:13.000 That's a word concept fallacy.

00:40:15.000 By the way, the original Sionists and the Sionist Congresses, they were debating multiple names for this land, not just Israel.

00:40:23.000 They decided on Israel.

00:40:24.000 And the whole thing is a word concept fallacy.

00:40:27.000 You can't really think that Genesis is referencing the modern nation state and its current government with Benjamin Netanyahu at the head of it.

00:40:34.000 There's no way there's no way to draw these parallels unless you're just really not paying attention.

00:40:38.000 Yeah, and that's that's the it's so obvious.

00:40:42.000 Like this is the part of the debate that's so obvious that I wanted to correct it early, right?

00:40:46.000 Where people are having this conversation online, I'm like, we need to move past like the basics.

00:40:49.000 The basics are Israel is not and Ted Cruz couldn't answer this.

00:40:53.000 And Ted Cruz was, you know, when he said in that interview that he wanted to be the staunchest ally in the United States government for the state of Israel and I'm very loosely parafrasing, I got really close.

00:41:04.000 He uses the Bible to justify it. 0.74

00:41:06.000 And then uses the Bible to justify it, but he uses Genesis.

00:41:09.000 to say this is why I support them, not any eschatology.

00:41:12.000 And so that's why I think there's there's a little bit of a disconnect.

00:41:14.000 We can dive into that maybe more another time or later today.

00:41:17.000 Sure.

00:41:17.000 But I do I do think that they're connected.

00:41:20.000 I wanted to hold on, don't do real, but I think that's I think that's the problem that we have.

00:41:25.000 That's and that's why I use that clip because I'm like, this highlights the issue right here.

00:41:29.000 We can't have a basic conversation about this because Tucker is rightly pointing out and by asking questions maybe at this point that are a little sarcastic because they've been going at each other for a little bit.

00:41:38.000 This is like fifty minutes into the interview and Ted couldn't answer them.

00:41:43.000 Who is Israel? 0.73

00:41:44.000 Did it say Israel?

00:41:45.000 It didn't say Israel, by the way.

00:41:47.000 If anyone had a Bible and showed it to him, it would have been like, show me Israel, the nation state that existed. 0.65

00:41:52.000 Ted wouldn't really cede the point.

00:41:55.000 Like, okay, fine.

00:41:56.000 You know, it's not like the borders that are drawn here.

00:41:58.000 It really is the people of God wherever they happen to be.

00:42:01.000 So, for example, and I think this is the point that you're making, if after World War two, instead of the Jews fighting for a homeland in Palestine, uh, or that region, if they decided to go to New Jersey instead and set up like their own thing in New Jersey, and the United States government did it like the Indian Reservation said, here's some land, here's some sovereignty, then we would call that Israel to a degree.

00:42:23.000 We would be like, that's the people of God.

00:42:25.000 that the Bible is talking about, not a nation state, not a border, not even a name.

00:42:28.000 They can call themselves something else, New Israel.

00:42:30.000 I don't know, you know, like whatever it is.

00:42:33.000 And I think that's the point that a lot of people don't understand.

00:42:35.000 And it certainly had nothing to do with the political leaders.

00:42:38.000 For example, if Israel tomorrow, Netanyahu decided to nuclear Paris, are we supposed to support that as Christians?

00:42:44.000 Yeah, of course not.

00:42:44.000 No, of course not.

00:42:46.000 Yes, exactly, but it paints the picture for people, like, of course not.

00:42:48.000 Okay, so there is some degree of support that maybe isn't.

00:42:51.000 Well, I think some of this comes up with this idea of so I think, I think many on the political right.

00:43:04.000 left are beginning to question something which is important here, which is, has Israel actually done a good job of protecting Jews?

00:43:13.000 That's a great question.

00:43:14.000 The idea, the idea here was that Israel itself needed to be established as a nation, uh, because of the atrocities that happened during World War II and the Holocaust.

00:43:24.000 And prior, in order to protect, and prior, in order to protect, uh, this group from future persecutions which may happen to them.

00:43:32.000 Yeah.

00:43:33.000 It hasn't done that.

00:43:35.000 Now, I don't know.

00:43:36.000 I've never actually heard anyone make an objective case for how Israel has done anything to protect Jews.

00:43:44.000 And I went back and I looked as a reference point before we had this conversation at some of the early congresses.

00:43:52.000 And one objection that came up, which was interesting, a guy objected and said, look, Western nations are really starting to accept us now.

00:43:59.000 They're starting to accept us in.

00:44:01.000 They're starting to kind of, we're integrating now basically everywhere.

00:44:05.000 And by the way, even right now, more Jews live outside of Israel than inside of it.

00:44:08.000 And mostly inside of Western nations, right?

00:44:10.000 And the United States is number one, I believe, right?

00:44:12.000 Yeah, number one, sure.

00:44:14.000 And then of course you have Western Europe that has tons and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:44:19.000 But the idea here that he was saying was actually, I think if you wanted to put all the Jews in one spot, right?

00:44:26.000 And it's established as sovereign that we're going to end up having to have to be a protectorate.

00:44:32.000 We're going to have to have protectors for us, you know, in these places whereas if they stayed in the Western nations rather than congregating into a Jewish state, the Western nations have always prioritized their security just like all of their citizens, right? 0.84

00:44:45.000 So the United States prioritizes their security as much as they prioritize mine, prioritize the security in England as much as they do their citizens, France, et cetera, et cetera.

00:44:55.000 Why is it that this nation state actually makes Jewish people safer? 0.77

00:45:01.000 And that's not a question that I think is easily answered and that leads to a lot of this stuff as well.

00:45:06.000 I think a lot of the because God tells us we have to bless them is cope because they can't create a justification for how this state has actually protected Jews.

00:45:14.000 I can, I can, I think.

00:45:16.000 But I have to ask you a question first.

00:45:17.000 Are you making this argument today or are you making this argument in, say, the early 1900s?

00:45:22.000 Or I would even make it today.

00:45:24.000 Okay.

00:45:24.000 Well, I think today it's easier to make because I think you're right.

00:45:27.000 There is a lot more acceptance and there are a lot more options for Jews today to be able to go to different countries.

00:45:34.000 And I will let me just kind of lay this case out for you.

00:45:37.000 So I did some, some research on this because I thought it was an interesting question that you posed.

00:45:41.000 And I don't know that it's a question that I really gave a lot of thought to before.

00:45:44.000 I've done a significant amount of research in the last month on this topic of the Jews and pre 1948 Jews.

00:45:54.000 And I don't know if you're like this, where some, like, you get on a topic like this and you just watch every movie that you can watch, you read every book, you listen to every podcast, like everything that you can try to find to just kind of ingest information.

00:46:05.000 And so sometimes you have to weed stuff out.

00:46:06.000 But since 1948, I looked up there, the murder of Jews nation, not nationwide, sorry, worldwide has been approximately 25,000 due to pogrom style or like terrorist attacks right since the inception of the state.

00:46:21.000 Just in the Ukraine pogroms in 1918 and 1921, 50,000 to 100,000 Jews were killed.

00:46:27.000 So get rid of the Holocaust so there's no debate there, because I know there's a lot of people that debate numbers and I don't want to get into that. 0.94

00:46:32.000 I'm not saying you do, I'm saying I know a lot of people watching this would, so just based on the numbers alone and the search that I did went back to 1848.

00:46:41.000 I tried to I tried to do some kind of a comparison and I went like now Gerald, but that's not the only metric so I agree that now do American black people.

00:46:49.000 American black people, how many black people were killed?

00:46:52.000 Yeah, well, how many black people, traditionally? 0.72

00:46:55.000 were persecuted just within the United States and various states as compared to right now, even though black people don't have an official state.

00:47:03.000 Right?

00:47:03.000 No, no, no.

00:47:04.000 So that's fair.

00:47:05.000 So isn't it actually the case that what's going on is that as time has progressed and tolerance has progressed along with, you know, our views in science and how humans interact with each other, the views of technology with correspondence of different races and culture, that people have become more tolerant towards other groups other than their own.

00:47:25.000 Maybe.

00:47:25.000 Even if Israel had not had a state, let's say, this established nation, which by the way, was at war.

00:47:33.000 since its inception.

00:47:33.000 Yeah, day one.

00:47:35.000 Yeah, day one.

00:47:37.000 Can you honestly say that you think that Jewish persecution would have risen or fallen?

00:47:44.000 Because I would just argue that based on every other objective metric I can see in the West for every other race and group, that it still would have drastically decreased.

00:47:52.000 Yeah, but that's the United States.

00:47:54.000 I'm not just No, the West, the whole West.

00:47:57.000 That would be Australia, Western Europe.

00:48:01.000 It would even include Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union.

00:48:05.000 But you couldn't predict those things.

00:48:07.000 Like, you can.

00:48:08.000 You can make the same predictive metrics based on how they treat other countries outlier groups, right?

00:48:12.000 No, I that's fair.

00:48:13.000 I'm not saying that.

00:48:13.000 I'm saying that you couldn't in.

00:48:15.000 That's why I asked you when you're making the argument.

00:48:16.000 If you're making the argument today, it supposed it presupposes that Israel exists and all the impacts of Israel existing and having relations with 160 countries and being a UN recognized country has happened, right?

00:48:27.000 And I think that's part of, honestly, what has led Israel to be, at least have more options, right?

00:48:33.000 As a nation state.

00:48:34.000 So my argument would be, yeah, I think generally speaking, you can make a pretty good case that we have become more tolerant, especially in the United States.

00:48:43.000 In Europe, yes and no.

00:48:45.000 I still see a lot of the problems.

00:48:46.000 The numbers probably bear out that you're correct, though., as far as murders.

00:48:49.000 Like if we're looking at what I was looking at, like just the murders that are happening based on Oh, it's not going to be.

00:48:53.000 It's going to be night and day.

00:48:54.000 Wouldn't you think it would be closed?

00:48:55.000 Yeah, right?

00:48:57.000 But can you bet on that when you're trying to figure out what to do in the early 1900s and you're living through the pogroms that are happening not just in Russia and Ukraine, but are happening in Poland and in France and in all these different countries and you're a Jew going, what the hell did you do? 0.73

00:49:12.000 I think you can.

00:49:13.000 I think you can because most of them, because most Jews didn't actually migrate to Israel.

00:49:18.000 So they must not have thought that their safety was going to be determined by the state when they Yeah, that's correct.

00:49:25.000 Most Jews globally did not migrate to Israel.

00:49:28.000 Fair, but there's a reason for that.

00:49:29.000 Then most, yeah, there is because most of them must not have thought that their safety was nearly as much in jeopardy as you seem to claim.

00:49:36.000 I don't think so because at the time they seem to I mean, obviously it's not, they're not a monolith, right?

00:49:41.000 If you're successful and you're in another country.

00:49:43.000 So really what happened in the 1920s right after the freaking Ukraine pogroms right after pogroms, the 50 to 100,000, some some estimates are a little higher than that, but it was a Jewish website and I didn't want to be called a Zionist again.

00:49:55.000 So right after, whatever numbers.

00:49:57.000 Well, whatever the numbers are, but right after that, you have people all of a sudden doing financially better because of the roaring twenties, right?

00:50:07.000 Right after that, you got the First World War out of the way, people are doing financially better, people have better things to do than worry about who's to blame for their problems.

00:50:16.000 Right.

00:50:16.000 Then things start to go south again and all of a sudden you've got people looking for someone to blame for their problems.

00:50:22.000 There were tons of people who were doing well off that could stay where they were and thought it was better to do that.

00:50:27.000 You're right, there was a lot, there was a lot of agreement on people staying where they were, but there were a lot of people pushing and fighting to create a homeland to some place where they could seek refuge in.

00:50:33.000 So I don't think that would be dismissed.

00:50:34.000 It was big enough.

00:50:34.000 I'm not sure.

00:50:45.000 I was all that big.

00:50:45.000 I would, I would say somewhere around, uh, ten percent.

00:50:47.000 were really pushing towards this idea who were indoctrinated towards it by early Sionist leaders.

00:50:54.000 And the thing is, if it was really, like, in a negative way or Yeah, oh yeah, it was all well, there was tons of propaganda from the Jewish Congresses. 0.84

00:51:02.000 There was tons and tons of propaganda.

00:51:04.000 There were books, whole books written about No, for sure, but they they wanted a homeland.

00:51:08.000 That's not, that's not a bad thing, right?

00:51:10.000 I'm not saying no, no, no, I'm not saying that.

00:51:12.000 I'm not saying whether or not sovereign peoples have the ability on land which they acquire through whatever means they acquired it to have rights to that land.

00:51:22.000 I'm not making any disputes there.

00:51:24.000 I guess my only dispute here is whether or not the land itself has done much to increase the security for Jews globally, which is what the Sionists promised us it would do, and what Christian Sionists still to this day demand that Israel be kind of raised up and whatever we need to do to make sure that they're doing well because that is a safe haven against the potential of future atrocities towards the Jewish people.

00:51:51.000 I would just argue that that vision was not realized, that the nation state of Israel did not actually do anything to protect Jews globally, nothing.

00:52:02.000 Well, and I rather it was just the march of progress of technologies and opening up the various spaces of communication between people groups, which began to erode many of those ancient prejudices.

00:52:15.000 So I hope you're right.

00:52:17.000 I hope the march of progress is the thing that we can point to, because if I were Jewish and I had grandparents that lived through some of the things that happened to Jews out of nowhere, like literally out of nowhere, like one day you've got a shop and maybe you're not the most popular person in town, but you're certainly not a pariah worthy of being dragged out in the streets and beaten to death, and the next day all of a sudden you are.

00:52:40.000 Like the calculus for me would be a lot different.

00:52:42.000 And I agree with you that not everyone felt that way because not everyone lived that experience, right?

00:52:46.000 Especially at the time.

00:52:47.000 So I can't say that Jews in the United States experienced that, though they certainly did experience a ton of anti Semitism here in the United States and a ton of mistreatment here in the United States.

00:52:56.000 It wasn't just in Germany.

00:52:57.000 This was around.

00:52:58.000 Well, I don't dispute any of this.

00:53:00.000 I'm just pointing out that we can look at other people groups in almost every European nation and inside all of what you would consider the Western nations.

00:53:09.000 This would include Australia, right?

00:53:11.000 Even just look at the Aboriginals in Australia. 1.00

00:53:13.000 You can look at American blacks. 0.99

00:53:16.000 You can look at even South America.

00:53:19.000 and in Canada with the treatment of the natives there.

00:53:22.000 You can look everywhere and see that the tolerance when it comes to the persecution of these various races and things like this was already on the turn by the mid forties.

00:53:34.000 I mean, you have to remember that the military was already beginning its march towards desegregation inside the army inside World War two.

00:53:42.000 This was already happening.

00:53:43.000 So the idea also in Europe, you had under Mussolini, they were allowing miscegenation that was basically unheard of and they were allowing miscegenation all through Italy.

00:53:53.000 So these types of things when it came to persecution.

00:53:56.000 The barriers were already breaking down before there was ever an established state for Jews anyway.

00:54:03.000 So I would just argue that we can look around at other marginalized peoples, right, if you want to call them that, and say, okay, you went through horrific experiences also.

00:54:12.000 There was no nation state for your people to flee to.

00:54:15.000 And yet still, it seems that many of these groups are far less marginalized or persecuted than they were once upon a time.

00:54:24.000 So I'm not so sure how Israel did much for that.

00:54:27.000 It seemed to put all or tons of Jews in one spot, and then that spot's just open for endless attack. 1.00

00:54:34.000 It just seems so stupid to me. 1.00

00:54:36.000 It does. 1.00

00:54:37.000 It does have some disadvantages, shall we say?

00:54:40.000 For sure.

00:54:41.000 Centralizing all those people.

00:54:42.000 It's like when you get pedophiles together for a convention, you know where to bomb, right?

00:54:45.000 Right.

00:54:46.000 You know how to take things. 0.87

00:54:47.000 So I understand the point and I'm not comparing Jews to pedophiles, by the way. 0.95

00:54:50.000 Gosh, that's just going to set some people on fire, I know.

00:54:53.000 And I understand that each group is going to have a different subset of experiences.

00:54:57.000 Now, when you're playing the Olympics of Opression, right, I know that various groups are always going to say, I was more oppressed than this group, I was more oppressed than that group, et cetera, et cetera.

00:55:06.000 But to discount the fact that there's the human experience is filled with two thousand years of this group oppressing this group, this group oppressing that group, et cetera, et cetera.

00:55:17.000 And it's going to end up being that way.

00:55:19.000 We're always going to match up tribe versus tribe. 0.90

00:55:22.000 That just seems to be part of the human experience.

00:55:24.000 But I would just argue that even before the state was established as a nation, it was very clear that many of these traditional prejudices were already beginning to break down as technology advanced and people groups were able to intersect with each other much more often.

00:55:40.000 I don't I don't disagree outside of the experience of Jews in Europe, specifically.

00:55:45.000 I think the Jews in Europe, what they were experiencing was a tightening and something that they probably never in their wildest dreams thought was going to happen.

00:55:55.000 specifically in Germany, then Czechoslovakia, then Poland, then moving on, right?

00:56:00.000 It was almost like a savior day when Russia comes in and kicks the Germans out, which should never be the case, right? 0.98

00:56:05.000 But so that's, I guess, that's my point.

00:56:08.000 I don't know that I agree completely.

00:56:10.000 I understand where you're coming from.

00:56:11.000 I do think the technology, I do think that other factors over the years have made it to where we are much more tolerant.

00:56:19.000 But if you are a Jew in the early part of the 20th century and you're trying to figure out how to live life and you're starting to see these things happen, I understand why you would want a place of refuge.

00:56:31.000 Because people are taking them in., including the United States. 0.78

00:56:34.000 Like, good.

00:56:35.000 I understand, I understand that too.

00:56:37.000 I just also understand the early Sionist counterarguments within their own ranks from the Jewish culture.

00:56:44.000 They wanted to have influence.

00:56:45.000 They wanted to have influence.

00:56:46.000 They also trying to say, like, look, we have homes and families and we've been established in some of these areas for several hundred years and we don't want to uproot and go.

00:56:58.000 And we think that this will cause a brand new wave of anti Semitism where people can draw all their ire on a single place and then attack it.

00:57:05.000 And they kinda have.

00:57:06.000 Yeah, but they've defended that very well and their numbers have they haven't.

00:57:11.000 We have defended it.

00:57:13.000 The very same nations which people would claim were the biggest persecutors are actually the very nations which are providing all the security for the State of Israel.

00:57:24.000 So it's like, how would they not have been safe just staying in those nations?

00:57:28.000 Well, no, at the time that's not foreseeable is my point.

00:57:31.000 Like, you can't look to the future and see that all of a sudden, I mean, maybe you could predict that Britain would, you certainly couldn't predict that France would, and you certainly couldn't even predict that Britain would, because at the time, whenever the Balfour Declaration was, I mean, I know that's a lot earlier, but let's say this, they set up the state, like they were attacking the British to get them the hell out of there. 0.59

00:57:48.000 So they couldn't think.

00:57:49.000 No, they had tons of security.

00:57:51.000 They had tons of security and weapons agreements with Western nations.

00:57:54.000 Where do you think they were getting their weapons and their tanks and everything else?

00:57:57.000 I mean, they were getting them.

00:57:58.000 I mean, I disagree, but they were getting them from Western nations.

00:58:00.000 And the thing is, it's so funny, it's like the very same nations which they, which, which Jews fled out of in order to move into the nation of Israel are the very same nations that they are banking on right this second. 0.56

00:58:16.000 Yeah, but they weren't worried about France and Britain.

00:58:18.000 They were worried about Germany and Italy.

00:58:21.000 They were worried about those people coming after them.

00:58:23.000 And, and rightfully so, it happened.

00:58:24.000 I mean, you said that they didn't see.

00:58:27.000 the threat.

00:58:27.000 That's one of the major kind of problems with what happened up to the Holocaust was that so many Hungarian and Polish Jews didn't perceive the threat.

00:58:35.000 I have businesses here.

00:58:36.000 I've lived here for two hundred years.

00:58:38.000 I have family.

00:58:38.000 I have prosperity.

00:58:39.000 I have a successful, thriving business.

00:58:41.000 Well, the next day they didn't.

00:58:42.000 The next day they were herded onto a tragedy.

00:58:44.000 That's true.

00:58:45.000 I'm not disputing.

00:58:46.000 I'm not disputing any of that.

00:58:48.000 I'm just pointing out that the edge of your argument, while it's rational, it's a good rational argument.

00:58:54.000 The idea is like, look, if you're in an era of rampant persecution, this would really seem like a good idea.

00:59:00.000 In some sense at least.

00:59:02.000 The only problem is that the argument has a double edge, which is if you can't determine the future for security inside of the nation states you're in and perceive that they'll lighten up against your people group, there's no reason for you to assume that they would lighten up against a state.

00:59:17.000 Well, okay, so moving into this state, you would think would put a massive target on your back.

00:59:23.000 And how would you defend the state, right?

00:59:25.000 That's the question.

00:59:26.000 So you must have some security agreements in place, some ways in which, you know, this state will be defended.

00:59:31.000 So I would just point out like, I'll go ahead.

00:59:35.000 I think the or part to that is, or you're at a point where I would rather fight for a homeland than be killed tomorrow in a pogrom.

00:59:41.000 I'm at the point where I can't.

00:59:43.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:59:44.000 Like, I'm like, all right, I'm just going to go for it.

00:59:45.000 But I do believe that you're correct in that the Jews had a very, very good strategy early on to get support from other countries, specifically Britain and the United States, but also other countries around the world to a lesser degree.

00:59:57.000 And that was one of their main goals is to make sure that Jews in those countries would put pressure. 0.93

01:00:01.000 In fact, that was one of the levering tools that they used against the British, don't make me make the Jews rise up against you in these other countries and you lose support in this war.

01:00:09.000 Like, listen, I get it.

01:00:10.000 But here's the thing, the United States did the same thing.

01:00:13.000 We basically said, screw this.

01:00:15.000 We don't, we have people like we had our own place.

01:00:17.000 I get it that we weren't going to a brand new place, but initially we did.

01:00:20.000 We went to a place and we said, screw it.

01:00:22.000 We're done with this.

01:00:23.000 There's no way we should be able to defeat them.

01:00:25.000 And by the way, the only way we can possibly win this war is if we get the Native Americans to some degree on our side and the French to come over here with some ships and blow things up. 0.99

01:00:33.000 We did the same thing.

01:00:34.000 So I don't look at Israel as being some kind of this unique case in that regard.

01:00:37.000 And the prosecutor is not disputing that.

01:00:40.000 I agree with you that if the idea here is just to say whether or not sovereign peoples are allowed to create states and they don't need to give endless justifications for their state, then I agree.

01:00:54.000 But they were dependent wholly on other people and so were we to protect them.

01:00:57.000 Well, like we found this may be wrong, but if I ask, it was the United there to protect this group of people, right?

01:01:08.000 Did it live up to its promise of protecting that group of people?

01:01:12.000 I would say in the United States, the United States definitely lived up to its promise of protecting its citizens.

01:01:17.000 I don't, I just don't, I don't think you can cut that any other way.

01:01:21.000 It really did live up to its promise of protecting its citizens, at least to a large degree.

01:01:26.000 Did Israel, though, live up to its promise of protecting Jews, especially Jews globally?

01:01:31.000 That I think you can definitely make a case against.

01:01:34.000 Yeah.

01:01:34.000 So to steal man kind of what you're saying, you agree that the number of people murdered and the deaths.

01:01:40.000 That metric would seem like it does, but maybe it's attributable to other things than having a state.

01:01:47.000 Maybe the number of Jews globally murdered pre 1948 being so much higher than it is now, maybe that was attributable to something other than them having a nation state in the first place.

01:01:56.000 Yes, I would I would just argue back that my guess the crux of my argument would be that I don't think that the nation state of Israel being established has reduced the number of deaths of Jews globally, but rather has likely exacerbated it over time more than the alternative.

01:02:14.000 And while I agree that there was rampant persecution going on at the time of Jews, that's not even in dispupute.

01:02:19.000 No.

01:02:20.000 Along with many, many other groups, I would just point out that the reason that many of those other groups, this oppression is all but virtually gone, including in the Western nation against Jews individually. 0.99

01:02:32.000 Now, I know that you get the, well, he put a fucking Nazi thing on my garage or whatever, shit, whatever, stuff like that. 0.92

01:02:39.000 That's not, that's not like, oh, they lined us up and put us in front of ditches and pulled the trigger, right? 0.98

01:02:44.000 These are different.

01:02:46.000 We have different levels of this.

01:02:48.000 Okay, we have different levels of this.

01:02:50.000 So if, if that's the complaint, then it's like, well, okay, maybe you have to do something about that too.

01:02:56.000 But I don't think that it's reaching these critical heights like we were, like we're discussing before.

01:03:01.000 So did it live up to its idea of protecting and even right now in modernity, is it living up to the idea of protecting Jews or is it putting a target on their back globally due to what's going on with Palestine and due to what's going on with their intelligence working with MI6 and the CIA and many others, Mossad interference.

01:03:21.000 American people seem to not be happy about it along with the peoples of the West.

01:03:25.000 That does not seem like it's assisting with protecting Jews.

01:03:28.000 So I think there's a good case to be made the other way.

01:03:32.000 I mean, I I I I don't completely disagree, but I think I would lean more towards the state of Israel being a net positive for them and having an impact on that because I just throughout human history, for some reason, the Jews seem to be and it's not the oppression Olympics necessarily.

01:03:47.000 It's just like, why do they keep getting singled out in these different countries historically?

01:03:53.000 Are they really that weird?

01:03:56.000 Are they that Jewish to some degree that they just are so off-putting to people, no matter where they happen to go, they end up being the scapegoat? 1.00

01:04:02.000 I don't know.

01:04:02.000 I really do look at it more of a spiritual battle than anything else.

01:04:05.000 Like if they are in fact God's chosen people, anybody let's just, you know, without defining who God's people are, but anybody who wears the team jersey for being a Jew, if those are God's people, then if I was Satan, of course, I would go after them as well as Christians, right? 0.92

01:04:17.000 I wouldn't exclusively go after them.

01:04:19.000 I would do both, right?

01:04:20.000 And try to maybe make the promises of God completely fail.

01:04:23.000 That would be my target.

01:04:24.000 That's what Satan tried to do completely in Scripture.

01:04:27.000 It's like, I'm going to make God's promises be broken to these people.

01:04:30.000 And it's going to completely shatter everything.

01:04:33.000 So I do think that it has had a net positive impact, but I understand the case.

01:04:38.000 What about this?

01:04:39.000 If you do, do you think in the future it will continue to?

01:04:43.000 That's actually where I was going.

01:04:45.000 Yes and no.

01:04:46.000 I think right now is a great example of no, right?

01:04:49.000 Right now with what's going on.

01:04:50.000 Now here's my argument.

01:04:52.000 And we don't have know if I'm going to go into Gaza, but I'm glad to see that Dave Smith has come around to my point of view and he will hate that I said that, by the way.

01:05:00.000 It's good for Dave.

01:05:01.000 Dave.

01:05:02.000 Yeah.

01:05:02.000 So Douglas Murray actually gave an interview and I think it was with Piers Morgan where he said, one of the main problems in this conflict is that nobody has been allowed to win.

01:05:11.000 Israel obviously would win in any war against Gaza or Hezbollah or any of these. 0.58

01:05:16.000 They wouldn't even win.

01:05:18.000 They would walk right in, completely destroy everything.

01:05:21.000 And I think no matter which side of this you come down on, if you look at it objectively, Israel has taken extraordinary measures during a war to make sure they minimize civilian casualties.

01:05:32.000 That doesn't mean that they have minimized civilian casualties though.

01:05:35.000 Again, this is one of those places where people will immediately run to the extremes.

01:05:38.000 And I'm like, listen, of course there have been crazy amounts of casualties of innocent people and I hate it.

01:05:43.000 I think it's terrible.

01:05:44.000 That's why I hate war, but I understand war's place in history. 0.93

01:05:47.000 And so that's why you don't start war for no reason.

01:05:49.000 Like you weigh the cost of doing something like this.

01:05:53.000 But if Israel had been allowed to win, I don't know, in 2005 or in 2003 or pick a date, right?

01:06:00.000 And actually win.

01:06:01.000 And I mean win, win to the point of you've degraded the enemy so much that they have to come to the table and accept the terms that you.

01:06:11.000 We now own your land and it's ours.

01:06:13.000 We wouldn't be dealing with these problems.

01:06:15.000 The problem that I have with this whole thing is that it's a pro, it is an extension of human suffering.

01:06:19.000 You're prolonging it just like in Ukraine with Russia and Ukraine.

01:06:23.000 There, nobody's going to win that war right now unless Russia goes to the nuclear toolbox. 0.83

01:06:28.000 Am I correct in assuming then what you're saying is this?

01:06:31.000 If I can just summarize, make sure I got it right.

01:06:33.000 Yeah.

01:06:34.000 If they went in tomorrow and they butchered one third of the Palestinians, but that led to an end of all conflict with Palestinians, are you saying that that would likely be preferable to an elongation? 0.97

01:06:48.000 which actually led to the cost of a lot more life if they didn't actually do that.

01:06:54.000 Potentially.

01:06:54.000 So yeah, I mean, the hypothetical is that they'd have to butcher a third.

01:06:58.000 And I mean, whenever any lives are lost in war, like I mean, there's a weight to that when you're talking about it.

01:07:02.000 So yeah, I understand the caveats.

01:07:04.000 I understand the caveat.

01:07:05.000 Yeah, I mean, so, so, yes, because here's the alternative.

01:07:08.000 The alternative is, okay, well, what do we do about the current situation?

01:07:11.000 Well, just stop the war, stop the killing, let everything kind of go back to a neutral state. 0.72

01:07:15.000 Okay, well, that's great as long as everybody wants to go back to a neutral state.

01:07:19.000 The thing is they don't.

01:07:20.000 And you can make the argument that the IDF doesn't want to go back to a neutral state either, right?

01:07:23.000 So that's fine.

01:07:24.000 But I know for sure Hamas doesn't.

01:07:25.000 Their infrastructure is built on the fact that they are going to wage some kind of guerrilla style warfare against these people for all time.

01:07:33.000 So really what you're saying is, I want you to stop killing people in Gaza and more Jews are going to die because of it. 1.00

01:07:42.000 You're not saying that on purpose, not you, but the people making that argument.

01:07:44.000 You're not saying it on purpose, but that really is what it leads to.

01:07:47.000 So, you know, it is preferable to me to let this be finished.

01:07:52.000 Hopefully it doesn't take killing one third of the people there.

01:07:55.000 I don't think that would be a very good or moral thing to do.

01:07:58.000 But I hope that we can finish this war and get to a place of peace.

01:08:02.000 And right now and for decades we haven't.

01:08:05.000 And I don't think we ever will until someone wins.

01:08:08.000 a two-state solution for me will never, ever, ever in the history of the world now and forever on work, ever.

01:08:14.000 Work, yeah.

01:08:15.000 Well, I understand the, well, I understand the two points.

01:08:18.000 I just think that, let's start with the first one.

01:08:21.000 I think it kind of negates your, your kind of earlier framing of this. 0.97

01:08:25.000 Well, crap. 0.92

01:08:26.000 As like a, as like a positive. 0.99

01:08:28.000 If it's the case you say, Israel is not being allowed to win, they're not allowed to win. 0.95

01:08:32.000 This means other states are holding them back from winning.

01:08:35.000 That would again point out that Israel as a state, itself, has not necessarily been advantageous towards the BRICS.

01:08:42.000 No, it's still, it's still advantageous, but they've used what Israel's leadership has done.

01:08:46.000 done has capitulated to the demands of the rest of the world in this regard.

01:08:50.000 Then it hasn't really helped with the protection of Jews.

01:08:53.000 It's leading to more Jews dying because fewer Jews have died.

01:08:56.000 So it goes back to the number.

01:08:57.000 So, yeah, it's it could be better, but it's not.

01:08:59.000 Wouldn't they have anyway?

01:09:00.000 Wouldn't fewer Jews have died anyway is the question. 0.75

01:09:02.000 Well, but it's just kind of, yes, maybe.

01:09:04.000 Yeah, it's just kind of cycling.

01:09:06.000 It's just kind of cycling the question, but that's the first one.

01:09:09.000 Okay.

01:09:09.000 I guess to the second point though, the olive branch is like, I agree with you when it comes to warfare.

01:09:15.000 And this is the ugly truth.

01:09:16.000 I talked with Steven about this.

01:09:18.000 I'll talk with you about this.

01:09:20.000 It doesn't matter which general you read, whether it's Sun Tzu or MacArthur.

01:09:24.000 It doesn't matter, right?

01:09:25.000 They would, uh, completely agree with this take.

01:09:28.000 If it's the case that right now you can end an elongated conflict which will cost one million lives by taking two hundred fifty thousand lives right now, including one hundred thousand innocents because that will lead to six hundred thousand innocents dying over time, then you should probably do that.

01:09:44.000 Yeah.

01:09:45.000 I get that.

01:09:46.000 I understand that.

01:09:47.000 It's just it's it comes down to a numbers game and not every choice you can make is a good one.

01:09:51.000 No.

01:09:51.000 So you try to go for the choice which is the most moral with the least conditionals, right?

01:09:57.000 Yeah.

01:09:57.000 And unfortunately, in this case, there may not be any good options, but the fact of the matter is that.

01:10:03.000 all this only, only happens at all if Israel is established as an Israeli ethno Jewish state, an ethno religious state.

01:10:13.000 And that's why the conflict is going on right now, period.

01:10:16.000 And there's no kind of if and or buts about that.

01:10:18.000 And so you say, well, there's no more wind conditions at this point.

01:10:22.000 Maybe there's no more wind conditions.

01:10:24.000 So what does that mean?

01:10:24.000 I think there are.

01:10:26.000 I do.

01:10:26.000 I hope.

01:10:26.000 Well, what are they?

01:10:27.000 Well, if Israel goes, listen, I'm not advocating for this, but this would definitely be a win for Israel. 0.99

01:10:32.000 Let's say that right now, for some reason, Egypt decided to take some of these people in and Jordan did too.

01:10:36.000 That's not going to happen.

01:10:37.000 They are not going to do.

01:10:38.000 Why?

01:10:39.000 Because they don't want them.

01:10:40.000 Exactly.

01:10:41.000 They want them to be a thorn in the side of Israel. 0.69

01:10:43.000 Yes.

01:10:43.000 They want them to be a thorn in the side of Israel.

01:10:46.000 And so they don't care about the lives of those people.

01:10:47.000 And this is why I get pissed off at people like Dave Smith.

01:10:50.000 And I have a lot of respect for him more than other people do.

01:10:52.000 And he's been right about a lot of stuff that I really appreciate.

01:10:54.000 And I appreciate that he is anti war.

01:10:56.000 I get it.

01:10:57.000 I wish I lived in a world where that didn't exist, but unfortunately it does.

01:11:00.000 They don't care about the lives.

01:11:02.000 They want to prolong the conflict.

01:11:03.000 I have a problem with that happening in Ukraine.

01:11:05.000 Our politicians don't care about the lives of Ukrainian soldiers.

01:11:09.000 They just want to degrade Russia. 0.92

01:11:10.000 And they'll let them be propped up and killing each other for as many years as they'd like to and buy weapons.

01:11:15.000 Fantastic. 1.00

01:11:15.000 That sucks. 1.00

01:11:16.000 To me, that's immoral. 0.98

01:11:18.000 So what I would like to see is people like Dave Smith say, Israel, you should do a better job.

01:11:22.000 Hey, Egypt, what the hell are you doing? 1.00

01:11:24.000 Open the gates, let's set up an international camp.

01:11:27.000 We won't even put them on your dole. 0.80

01:11:29.000 We'll build a camp internationally and we'll move these people out of that into that region and we will let Israel take Gaza all the way to the sea and do whatever they want with it. 0.99

01:11:38.000 That's not ethnic cleansing, that's not libertarian sovereignty, not that libertarian sovereignty.

01:11:44.000 The idea there that these are sovereign nations and they're utilizing to their best of their ability political leverage to create a problem for their enemies.

01:11:53.000 And by the way, that's that, that's it, it's working.

01:11:55.000 Right.

01:11:56.000 But I understand why you didn't want to do it in the region.

01:11:59.000 And look, I hope people understand, like if you've done any research into the history of the formation of the state, you have to understand that Jews have been in that area for a long time too, and they lived in relative peace with the Arabs of the area.

01:12:10.000 They did.

01:12:10.000 And if I was going on for hundreds of years.

01:12:13.000 Oh, yeah.

01:12:14.000 And if I was an Arab, I would feel very much that I was in the right.

01:12:17.000 I get it.

01:12:18.000 I do get it, but it does come down to we won, you lost.

01:12:22.000 The British made promises to the Arabs to try to throw the Ottoman Empire so the Ottoman Empire couldn't fight them as effectively in World War I. They were trying to, they were struggling to have a survival of their society.

01:12:32.000 I get it.

01:12:33.000 But they made the promises to the French and they made the promises to the Jews for that same land too.

01:12:37.000 Britain was promising anyone anywhere anything if they would help them win this war in World War 1.

01:12:42.000 I say it went off the rails.

01:12:43.000 I know it went off the theological way.

01:12:45.000 No, no, it's all pertinent.

01:12:47.000 But it comes down to what people's view is.

01:12:49.000 So let me get back to what I said.

01:12:51.000 I would agree.

01:12:52.000 If we let Israel win, if we let them push everyone out, and I feel like that's the worst case scenario, pushing everyone out, pushing every single person out. 0.99

01:12:58.000 If you can't trust anyone, bulldoze everything.

01:13:01.000 Israel now owns that land and we put Palestinians somewhere else in the world where they can live a life where they don't have to worry about their kids being blown up at a McDonald's. 0.93

01:13:08.000 Isn't that better than the alternative that we're being presented with?

01:13:11.000 And the reason I brought Dave Smith up is because when he was talking about Ukraine and Russia, he said.

01:13:16.000 He said, listen, Russia came in and took some land. 0.68

01:13:19.000 You said, give it back.

01:13:21.000 He said, no, we have to deal with that reality and come to a negotiated agreement.

01:13:25.000 Fantastic.

01:13:26.000 Israel's going in and saying, we're going to just take this.

01:13:29.000 The negotiated agreement was, hey, you've got to let the prisoners go.

01:13:32.000 You've got to lay your weapons down. 0.99

01:13:33.000 Hamas has to be completely decapitated. 0.99

01:13:35.000 You guys can't have this thing anymore. 1.00

01:13:37.000 That's the condition.

01:13:38.000 They said, no, okay, we're going in.

01:13:40.000 Well, let me say this.

01:13:42.000 If it's the case, let's say that Israel struck a deal with, I don't know, twenty, twenty different nations, right?

01:13:50.000 Or let's just say ten.

01:13:51.000 Let's just make it easier.

01:13:52.000 Ten different nations, Western, Western nations to disperse all Palestinian people between those nations. 0.98

01:13:57.000 Keep the families intact, this and that.

01:13:59.000 Now they're at it.

01:14:00.000 And we set them up with some money.

01:14:01.000 And let's say, yeah, they pay a bounty, right?

01:14:03.000 They pay a bounty of like 500,000 per family.

01:14:07.000 This way they could be relocated.

01:14:09.000 Well, and there's all sorts of corruption watches on it, and they get all sorts of benefits.

01:14:14.000 If you were those Palestinian families and you were moved into Western nations where there were now Jews who lived inside those nations, who would you take your ire out on? 0.78

01:14:23.000 Maybe them.

01:14:25.000 Maybe them.

01:14:27.000 I get it.

01:14:27.000 So the answer is like, one way or the other.

01:14:30.000 Yeah, so but if it does, how did that really make the world safer for Jews, right? 0.57

01:14:34.000 Listen, I get it.

01:14:35.000 There's no great answer to this.

01:14:37.000 And these, I think every, every one of the solutions that gets proposed has some kind of ripple effect problem.

01:14:43.000 And even in my situation where I'm like, okay, just put them over in Egypt and build a camp until you can disperse them, like it doesn't mean that they're not going to come back and try to take their, you know, ancestral home back. 0.99

01:14:52.000 I mean, maybe I would, too.

01:14:53.000 I don't know.

01:14:54.000 I'm hoping that they wouldn't.

01:14:55.000 I'm hoping that they go, you know what?

01:14:56.000 This isn't worth it anymore.

01:14:58.000 I get ancestral homeland and maybe I'm an American and I don't have the same kind of tie to the land generationally that they do and I can't completely understand.

01:15:05.000 I get that.

01:15:06.000 But at the same time, maybe this is a better option.

01:15:09.000 But the reason and I understand that.

01:15:11.000 this isn't as theological, but it does have a lot of bearing on the current situation and conversation is that people start from the wrong points.

01:15:18.000 They start from either 100% supporting Israel no matter what because of Christian Zionism. 0.54

01:15:22.000 Or 100% hating them.

01:15:24.000 Exactly.

01:15:24.000 Or 100% hating them.

01:15:26.000 And you can't have that very kind of nuanced conversation where you and I are trying to see.

01:15:30.000 Geopolitics requires nuance because we have multiple people groups with multiple vested interests.

01:15:35.000 It includes our people group in the United States, right?

01:15:38.000 If it is the case that this relocation happens, and I tend that that's the most likely scenario.

01:15:43.000 Yes, that too.

01:15:44.000 Palestinians be relocated to another place. 1.00

01:15:47.000 It's just.

01:15:49.000 If I'm President Wilson of the United States, God willing.

01:15:54.000 If I'm President Wilson, I thought you were Dylan Woodrow, like why would you?

01:15:58.000 I'm kicking my feet up at my desk, right?

01:16:01.000 Asking for my third Diet Coke of the day while doing as little as possible, while doing as little as possible as a good president should.

01:16:08.000 And this comes across my desk, right?

01:16:11.000 Okay, what do you think about 900,000 Palestinians coming into the United States to be dispersed all over the United States? 0.99

01:16:20.000 The first thing that comes to my mind is they're going to start killing Jewish citizens. 0.98

01:16:24.000 That's the very first thing that I would think of is that we're importing a massive terror cell who's going to start killing Jewish citizens. 1.00

01:16:30.000 Put them in Arab nations then. 1.00

01:16:31.000 Put them with their own people. 0.99

01:16:32.000 And if they have a problem with the Arab nations.

01:16:34.000 The Arab nations won't take them. 1.00

01:16:35.000 That's their problem. 0.85

01:16:36.000 Because they want them to be there messing with the Jews. 1.00

01:16:40.000 Why are we playing the game then?

01:16:41.000 Why are we playing that game?

01:16:42.000 Well, we don't have a choice.

01:16:43.000 We can't force them to.

01:16:45.000 You know what?

01:16:46.000 No, no, no, no.

01:16:46.000 I don't mean that.

01:16:47.000 You're right.

01:16:47.000 We can't force them to.

01:16:48.000 I mean, we could airdrop them in with parachutes and stuff and say, good luck getting them out.

01:16:51.000 But nonetheless, that's impractical.

01:16:53.000 Yeah, that's true. 1.00

01:16:54.000 might kill them too. 1.00

01:16:54.000 That's true. 1.00

01:16:55.000 So there are not a lot I mean we could just be like all right Arab nations you care about your brothers in arms right you're gonna be sending them weapons and this is you're trying to save their lives okay here's the deal in two weeks the gloves are off.

01:17:09.000 We will not only tell Israel that there will be no sanctions, no anything from any international body or any country, we will encourage them to wipe Gaza off the map and start fresh with some new concrete and new ownership. 0.84

01:17:23.000 Two weeks.

01:17:25.000 These people don't care, and I'm tired of hearing the moaning of, I can't believe they're killing Gazans from those same people that won't do a damn thing to help them. 0.53

01:17:35.000 That's why I'm so disgusted at the United States in World War II, during the Holocaust not taking Jews and other countries not doing it. 0.62

01:17:41.000 I'm like, what are we doing?

01:17:42.000 You were saying this was happening and at the same time not taking any refugees in. 0.94

01:17:46.000 Like this is ridiculous to me.

01:17:48.000 But wouldn't the same criticism be levied from them to the United States and say, well then why don't you just take them?

01:17:54.000 We have taken some.

01:17:55.000 We're doing everything.

01:17:56.000 Why not take them all?

01:17:57.000 You have this massive land, a massive of the richest nation in the world.

01:18:01.000 We won't like it here.

01:18:02.000 Not the people there.

01:18:03.000 They'll say the same thing, not our climate there.

01:18:06.000 We don't have the proper infrastructure.

01:18:08.000 I mean, I'm coming up with whatever excuse I could.

01:18:11.000 But that would be the that would be the criticism.

01:18:13.000 And the thing is that it's somewhat fair.

01:18:15.000 I get it.

01:18:16.000 But yeah.

01:18:16.000 It is fair.

01:18:17.000 It's a fair criticism.

01:18:18.000 The thing is, as far as a geopolitical thing goes, though, I don't see, again, how this actually makes Jews.

01:18:25.000 When I look at the history of Israel, right, I don't actually see how the state made Jews globally safer than if I envision a world where this nation was not established as a state, right?

01:18:40.000 Would there be the same kinds of even blowback on the West from various Muslims who use it as a crux of, oh, you're, you guys worship the Zionists, so they have to change a lot of things. 0.95

01:18:50.000 It would change a lot of things across the board.

01:18:52.000 And so I'm not actually sure that it lived up to this promise, which I guess is the crux of what we're talking about.

01:18:56.000 Well, that's what it's not, what we're not saying here.

01:19:00.000 For any of you who might get upset because we're having a a real conversation, right?

01:19:04.000 Turks. 0.82

01:19:05.000 What neither of us are saying is that sovereign nations aren't allowed to set the policies that they wish.

01:19:11.000 Very much so.

01:19:12.000 Or that you're not allowed to set up your immigration policy, how you see fit, that you're not allowed to protect your land, how you see fit.

01:19:20.000 Neither of us are saying, are saying that.

01:19:22.000 All we're pointing out and arguing kind of in the nuance here is, if we envision a world where Israel itself never established as a nation, right, what would the distinction in society look like today?

01:19:34.000 And the reason you introduce those hypothetical is because you can then use those to kind of launch forward and project your future.

01:19:41.000 looks like, and also project on whether or not this whole experiment there was actually a great idea to begin with.

01:19:49.000 And I think that those are important conversations.

01:19:51.000 And bad theology led us to that.

01:19:53.000 Yeah.

01:19:54.000 That's something we should definitely address.

01:19:55.000 And if bad theology is leading us astray right this second, and I would contend, as Ted Cruz rightly points out, that it is, right?

01:20:02.000 He didn't make it up.

01:20:03.000 He didn't make it up, but he did.

01:20:04.000 His own, right?

01:20:05.000 He points it out very well.

01:20:07.000 Then I think that's something that's worth looking at.

01:20:10.000 And this was just a ball, by the way, Gerald.

01:20:12.000 I really enjoyed the back and forth here.

01:20:15.000 And I feel like we got a lot of that out on the table.

01:20:17.000 So agree with me or disagree with me, neither of us are advocating for negative consequences or negative outcomes for Jewish people.

01:20:26.000 We're kind of just taking a narrow vision on theology and what its effects are in the world.

01:20:32.000 Absolutely.

01:20:33.000 And I think if you had to ask either of us, we're actually praying for the salvation of all who are apart from Christ.

01:20:39.000 We want all who exactly, it doesn't matter who it is, Arabs, Jews, Palestinians, Israelis.

01:20:44.000 We want everyone to come to faith in Christ.

01:20:46.000 And so there are a lot of issues that we need to dive deeper in like this, Andrew.

01:20:50.000 Maybe we should do this a little more often and kind of talk about some of these things because I think it would be helpful for people.

01:20:55.000 You and I don't line up on everything on everything, and that's fine.

01:20:58.000 We have a lot of mutual respect for each other, and I think we're all trying, you and I are sorry, trying to make Christ known, make his name known in the world.

01:21:08.000 Well, I enjoy these conversations, especially with Gerald, because like me, he doesn't take anything, he's not offended by having a discussion with even someone who opposes the worldview or someone who is aligned.

01:21:22.000 It's just like he says, trying to get to the heart of what is true.

01:21:27.000 And so I love having these discussions and I'm happy to come back anytime you'd like so we can dive into more.

01:21:32.000 That sounds fantastic and you're right.

01:21:34.000 I don't take offense to anything because these people call me gay all the time and that is not true.

01:21:39.000 Andrew Wilson, thank you for being with us this week.

01:21:41.000 It's true.

01:21:41.000 Gerald, apologize, apologetics, it's not true.

01:21:48.000 Gerald apologizes, apologetics.

Louder with Crowder - August 22, 2025

Can a Christian be a Zionist: Gerald Morgan vs. Andrew Wilson Debate

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