Chael Sonnen joins Jemele to discuss his transition from the UFC to ESPN, his new job as a sports commentator, and his soon-to-be fatherhood journey. He also discusses his views on steroids in sports, and why it s important to be a conservative when it comes to politics.
00:00:02.000I am thrilled to have this guest here on today.
00:00:06.000He's been on the show before, but good man, podcaster extraordinaire, UFC megastar, now a commentator for ESPN, and soon-to-be father, Chael Sonnen.
00:01:04.000You could pull a Jon Jones and pull out a line there and no one would even judge you for it.
00:01:08.000So, before we get into, obviously, the PEDs that are in sports, and for the audience out there who might not necessarily be familiar with you, you are a UFC megastar, one of the biggest draws ever, a sports commentator, but a lot of people don't realize you've also been outspoken as a conservative and ran for office.
00:01:51.000And one thing that I am proud about, though, Stephen, is I have reasons for believing what I believe.
00:01:56.000When When I was young, you kind of grew up and just believed whatever you were told, whether that was about the monster in the closet or whatever it may be.
00:02:03.000But as I got a little bit older, I did my own research and I'm comfortable with the decisions that I've made.
00:02:07.000I don't fault anybody that has a different opinion than me, but I would encourage people to at least do a little research.
00:02:15.000Don't just always go off of what you were told in school or even what you were told by your parents.
00:02:19.000Look into something and figure out what you believe.
00:02:21.000You're a gentleman because, see, I do fault anyone who has an opinion different than my own.
00:02:31.000Yeah, you know, I consider myself a father already.
00:02:34.000The baby, unfortunately, isn't here yet.
00:02:36.000I can't wait for the little monster to arrive.
00:02:38.000But the lovely Miss Brittany is exactly five months and one week.
00:02:46.000And I always get confused because these pregnancy things go in weeks.
00:02:50.00026 weeks, and then somebody's got to get out his calculator and do some shorthand.
00:02:54.000Five months and one week, so about another four months to go.
00:02:59.000And, Knight, we were just talking about yesterday, before we got you here on the program, how you looked at the ultrasound.
00:03:04.000And you said something, you may not remember, but firstly, how impactful was that for you to look at, you know, a beating heart and seeing that for the first time as a first-time dad?
00:03:13.000It's such a cool process, and it's a little bit annoying for anybody that hasn't been through it.
00:03:17.000This is my first time, and I can tell you it's always kind of annoying.
00:03:20.000Somebody's telling you about it or however, but they'll also tell you when you go through it, you'll know what we mean, and it really is true.
00:03:28.000Ultrasound technology, Stephen, has been around for a long time, but this is my first time.
00:03:33.000I've never been in the room and seen him do it and see the baby move and open his hand and just do all these things and be a little person, so...
00:04:53.000Yeah, well, if you come across, you know, quotes from Elizabeth Warren or Wendy Davis, they want to not only be able to end the life a couple of weeks up, but after that ultrasound that you've even seen.
00:05:21.000You know, he kicks a lot in the morning and the night, and she likes to tell me he's kicking, and I tell her to change her verbiage that we're going to say he's practicing.
00:05:30.000He likes to do two-a-days, and he's training in the morning and he's training in the evening.
00:05:35.000So, you know, she'll do that sometimes.
00:05:37.000She'll come up and grab my hand and put it on her stomach and say, he's practicing.
00:05:40.000Would you want your boy to be a professional fighter, following your footsteps, or would you discourage him from that?
00:05:46.000No, I would love it if he got into something like that, but whatever he wants to do is fine with me.
00:05:52.000He's not going to be forced into anything, but I think sports are important on any level.
00:05:56.000Here's the one thing I don't like for young men.
00:06:02.000The biggest problem for young men, Stephen, in our society, period, race, any socioeconomic, doesn't matter.
00:06:09.000The biggest problem that young men have is free time.
00:06:11.000We cannot let a kid come home from school and have nothing to do for seven hours until bedtime.
00:06:17.000We've got to occupy their minds and their bodies somehow.
00:06:22.000Yeah, and I would even argue that the best person to help fill that free time, of course, would also be a father.
00:06:26.000We have a really big problem with fatherless homes in the country, whether just a completely absent father or a father who refused to put a ring on mommy's finger so he can hit the nightclubs and bump a line.
00:08:31.000And, you know, it seems like with each year, it's almost to the day of my birthday, three more pounds, three more pounds.
00:08:36.000And three pounds may not sound like a lot, but the years go quickly and it adds up.
00:08:40.000And if you're talking about back pain, weight matters.
00:08:43.000Yeah, well, LeBron just lost a few pounds, I think, 20 or so, because he said that he didn't like the impact from the joints, and he's only playing a girly sport like basketball, so I can imagine when you're actually in there fighting a guy.
00:09:08.000Didn't he say something to your missus?
00:09:10.000Well, to initiate the whole thing, yes, but for the apology, if you want to call it that, it was actually...
00:09:18.000He helped out a friend of mine that he had no idea was a friend.
00:09:21.000A completely random act of kindness that he did for somebody in Las Vegas.
00:09:27.000He was a very good friend of mine named Paige, and...
00:09:30.000They say it's the thought that counts.
00:09:32.000He actually tried to help her out with a room key because she had lost her ID. And he went as far as to offer three bribes to the front desk, put the cash down and everything.
00:10:22.000There's a lot of speculation going on.
00:10:24.000What was your initial reaction when you heard it?
00:10:26.000Well, just to put it in perspective for everybody that maybe doesn't follow the news on Anderson as you're speaking of, but we're about 12 hours into this whole thing.
00:10:35.000So my opinion and your opinion, we need to reserve the right to change our opinion when we're confronted with We're good to go.
00:12:00.000I've heard you mention before a lot of people don't understand, right?
00:12:03.000And we'll get into the fact, because a lot of people will say, well, Chiel can't compliment on us, he's a hypocrite, and we'll get into that.
00:12:09.000But difference between a banned substance and an illegal steroid.
00:12:14.000What he was taking, to the best of my understanding, at least one of those substances, was an illegal steroid.
00:12:22.000Am I right, wrong, and what's the difference?
00:12:25.000According to what he's accused of, yes, he had, I believe it was two things in his system.
00:12:30.000I believe they are both illegal steroids, to my understanding.
00:12:33.000In America, he came from South America.
00:12:35.000Again, there could be some conversation on laws there, but by our standards and my understanding, yes, that's correct.
00:12:41.000Well, over there, it's, you know, I got some back pain, here's some steroids in Brazil.
00:12:48.000I don't actually know what the specific laws on this are, but it is true that their regular bodies are a lot looser than ours.
00:12:55.000Well, both in the literal and the figurative sense.
00:12:57.000I've trained with enough Brazilians to see them coming in with six-packs and veins, reptilian, year-round, so they can walk, you know, Coco Cabana and a Speedo.
00:13:06.000They're not even the guys who aren't athletes.
00:13:10.000Chael is a commentator at ESPN. He has to reserve judgment.
00:14:58.000That's a flawed logic and I'm not arguing that.
00:15:00.000I'm just speaking to the point that guys do get confused in it.
00:15:04.000A reasonable person is going to believe if it's legal, I'm allowed to take it.
00:15:10.000They're also going to believe if it's illegal, I can't take it.
00:15:13.000And what we're finding out through this process is that's not true either.
00:15:17.000There's some absolutely imprisonable criminal substances That oddly are allowed, per the sport, with some of these athletic commissions, and there's also perfectly legal things over the counter as minor as Tylenol, where people have lost Olympic gold medals over.
00:15:35.000Even caffeine, I understand, by the Olympic Committee, there's a limit, and I think it's about two cups of coffee, right, is considered a banned substance, anything more than that.
00:16:51.000Whenever you have shame, it's very hard to come clean.
00:16:54.000Even when you want to come clean, there's an internal battle that goes on, and it takes a little bit to get there.
00:17:02.000To bring it back to the Anderson situation, If he took these substances, again, he not only has a right to take it, he's got an obligation to himself, if it's about curing his life.
00:17:13.000Well, if he's not in professional sports where he's whacking on some other guy, obviously, is what people will say.
00:17:59.000I can tell you on the substance issues, the rules get very blurred, and I'll tell you why.
00:18:05.000They have something now called out-of-competition testing.
00:18:09.000The rule used to be, and the rule when I started and came through, and one of the problems I had was not adapting to the changes, but it used to just be in competition, meaning what's in your system on fight night?
00:18:35.000So right off the bat, you understand time does matter.
00:18:38.000There is a time period of which all is forgiven.
00:18:41.000The confusion has come in, what is that time period?
00:18:44.000And I accept that these are the rules and we must operate within them.
00:18:49.000I do believe there's a conversation to be had that you can't just ban all medication from a person.
00:18:55.000A person does not have between health and sport.
00:18:59.000I hate to do this, but the question was, do you believe, do you think, if someone holds a gun to your head, do you think Anderson had used before?
00:19:08.000Or do you think this was a one-time deal?
00:19:10.000When you fought him, do you think he was on something?
00:19:19.000If you're saying that a guy never took a banned substance in his life, that's a silly statement, particularly in the context that you and I just established, that Tylenol, caffeine, IV – these things are all banned substances.
00:19:32.000But what about these substances that he was taking?
00:19:43.000We start to decline as humans and particularly as athletes right around 25 years old.
00:19:49.000If you're real lucky, you might push that to 27 or 28.
00:19:52.000The good news is science and medicine have come along and decided the world does not belong to 18 to 25 year olds, but that you can extend your career beyond that.
00:20:03.000So if you're asking me if he took something, there's two tests that you take, Stephen.
00:20:07.000The first test is not The urine drug test.
00:20:35.000It's entirely speculation, and that's why I tried to preface it with that, to be fair, as opposed to the people on the gotcha stations who were like, It was facts!
00:20:42.000Chael said he fought Anderson on PEDs!
00:20:44.000Listen, we're going to go to a break here, and we will be right back, because I want to continue down this line and even take it to Jon Jones.
00:21:01.000One thing I will say, having read up on the drugs that Anderson did use, you know, one of those substances, if you look at it, actually one of its symptoms, one of the side effects, is that it can cause overcalcification.
00:21:12.000It can actually cause bones to become weaker and more prone to breaking.
00:21:22.000You have a bunch of mouth breathers who've never hit an armbar in their life on Sure Dog acting like they're now medical experts or biochemists.
00:21:30.000But that is an actual side effect of that one drug that he had taken, which sort of makes it interesting.
00:21:35.000I know, listen, you hate to ever drag someone's name through the mud.
00:21:38.000Obviously, you've had some things happen, but it is a little bit fun as the news unfolds, let's be honest.
00:22:34.000We'll see how Anderson handles it, but I think when somebody, at least for me, when somebody tried to say things, even if it wasn't accurate, I think I still deserve it.
00:22:44.000If you test positive and somebody wants to run that back all the way to when I started my career at nine years old, I don't think that guy's wrong.
00:22:53.000Everything you just said, my takeaway was, Shale's son knows how to use you or I properly.
00:23:35.000The worst for me, I think that any man who goes about with the word irregardless on his lips deserve to be roasted with his own Thanksgiving turkey.
00:24:27.000You hosted a reality show against Jon Jones.
00:24:29.000So we know that, but I do want to get to this because a lot of the conspiracy theorists, again online, say that you knew that and you tweeted out, Jon, if you keep telling lies about me, I'm going to start telling the truth about you.
00:24:43.000And at the weigh-ins, when usually people rehydrate themselves with Pedialyte or Gatorade or something like that, you were drinking a can of Coke, looking him straight in the face.
00:24:52.000How long have you or let's say people in the sport known about this?
00:24:56.000There are rumors circulating that people have known for a long time this guy's been a fan of Colombian gold.
00:27:46.000You know, when you go out with the Bible versus tattooed on you, and you go out and you talk about wanting to be a role model and saying, you know, I'm never going to be caught with a DUI, and then you test positive for cocaine.
00:27:56.000Now, cocaine, again, there's the differentiation between in-competition and out-of-competition, whereas, you know, Nick Diaz tested positive for pot.
00:28:05.000Could have been fighting blitzed, for all we know.
00:32:59.000He deals with criticism because he's in the media.
00:33:02.000He's got certain sponsors and brands, and he believes he needs to portray a certain image.
00:33:06.000I believe not only on a personal level would he somehow be relieved and kind of out of the closet, if you will, but I also believe on a professional level sales would do better if he just came out and said, look, I party all night, I barely ever go to the gym, and I'll whip anybody's ass that wants to step in that cage with me.
00:33:23.000All three of those statements are true, and they would also make him endearing.
00:34:26.000I remember right as we were prepping to shoot this video on legalizing MMA in New York, and we have to go in a minute and a half, you said, I've never seen an athlete like that in my life, and I know many Olympic medalists.
00:34:39.000Now, in retrospect, looking at everyone's career, don't you think someone could argue that the guy who left undefeated, never tested hot, was a great ambassador to the sport, highest pay-per-view draw, wouldn't you have to give it to St.
00:34:53.000Pierre at this point until maybe Jones passes him by?
00:35:04.000There was a press conference done, and they said, no, Anderson's the best, and our president, Dana White, made this whole argument, and that is his opinion.