Imam Anjem Chaudhary joins us to talk about his views on Islam and the Paris attacks, and why we should not be so quick to judge others based on what they say about Islam. We also talk about the role of the state and its relationship with religion.
00:00:24.000So, you were very quick, actually, in your response to do the show, which I was kind of surprised, considering I'm sure you know that I've been critical of Islam in the past.
00:00:34.000What was your reasoning to just want to come on and discuss right away?
00:00:38.000Are you just open to doing every program you can and getting the word out?
00:00:43.000Actually, I hadn't heard of your show before I was contacted.
00:00:46.000That may come as a surprise to you, but in general, I believe that...
00:00:55.000I believe through debate and discussion we can reach the truth.
00:00:58.000I mean, you know, there are many people who didn't agree with the prophets of God, you know, over the generations, and yet they changed their own lives.
00:01:26.000So, of the over, you know, one billion Muslims in the world, how representative do you think your view of Islam is to be?
00:01:33.000Would you consider it in line, relatively, with the mainstream thought in Arab Muslim countries?
00:01:41.000Well, the problem that we face is that in the kind of one and a half billion Muslims that we have nowadays, they are divided into about 55 nations, and none of those nations Implement the whole of the Sharia.
00:01:53.000Now, what that entails is that there is no education system of Islam nowadays in Muslim countries, and therefore the vast majority of the people are very secular, and they don't really practice, I suppose, quite similar to Christianity.
00:02:06.000What I essentially say, I'm sorry, what I essentially say is don't judge me according to what the people say, judge the statements according to the Iran revelation, because that is surely the arbiter.
00:02:18.000So you would say, I don't want to misrepresent you, for example, I would say that there are a lot of people out there who claim to be Christian, but they're out doing drugs, partying, they're checking the Christian default box.
00:02:28.000You would say that of many Muslims who don't really believe the teachings that you follow.
00:02:32.000You would say they're secular Muslims, more or less.
00:02:36.000I mean, this is a problem that it's very easy to claim something, and Islam is a great religion, but not every single person doesn't understand it or practices it.
00:02:58.000Well, I don't think any of them do, quite frankly, but I believe that what is the project In Syria and Iraq and places in Mali, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc., are doing quite well.
00:03:10.000But of course, human beings make mistakes, and the best among them are those who ask forgiveness and change.
00:03:14.000So Syria, Iraq, so ISIS, you think, is doing a bang-up job?
00:03:20.000Well, I think that ISIS don't exist anymore in France.
00:03:23.000I mean, to be fair, they dissolved in June 2014.
00:03:26.000What you have today is a collection of different organizations and individuals and scholars who make up the administration.
00:03:33.000And suddenly, you know, they've made mistakes.
00:03:35.000But I think that internally, they're implementing the Sharia.
00:03:38.000They're providing the basic needs for the people.
00:03:40.000Yeah, many would consider genocide a mistake.
00:03:58.000What I did, I explained the mindset of people who would carry this out.
00:04:03.000Okay, so can you condemn them then, giving you the chance to?
00:04:07.000Well, I mean, if you just allow me to explain one thing, that insulting the honor of any prophet of God, whether that be Jesus or Moses or indeed Muhammad, carries capital punishment in Islam.
00:04:19.000And what I was basically saying is that this is the job of the state.
00:04:38.000Fun dip, my producer here, is an agnostic atheist.
00:04:41.000The only religion in the world is your version of Islam, which you claim to be the true version, that would bring death to someone simply for not accepting.
00:05:19.000But what I would say to you is obviously there are different values which people consider a matter of life and death.
00:05:25.000And for us, the sanctity of any prophet of God and the Quran is that.
00:05:29.000And what I would say to you is that if you don't accept the inimitability of the Quran and the messengership of Muhammad, obviously you're not going to understand that.
00:05:36.000But as a Muslim, we do understand that.
00:05:38.000Well, and just like, obviously, you know, you don't understand freedom.
00:06:15.000It's not fair for you to say that, say I'm a lawyer, but you're a lawyer who doesn't believe in the freedom of speech, so we have a fundamental difference.
00:08:11.000But there's a difference, if you just allow me to finish, there's a difference between disagreeing with something, not believing that he's the prophet of God, and deliberately insulting him or making caricatures which are, you know, in some ways.
00:09:08.000Drawing something and assuming by the individual that he's doing something noteworthy or something respectable and not understanding that he cannot draw.
00:09:16.000And obviously what this Charlie Hebdo did, I don't know if you saw any of the drawings, but they were extremely nasty and very hateful.
00:09:23.000And I think that anyone would be offended if you're a Muslim, even a non-Muslim.
00:09:28.000I would agree with you that they were nasty.
00:09:30.000I wouldn't agree that everyone would be offended.
00:09:32.000Someone, I mean, they did that, you know, what we call the P-Christ was a famous piece of art, and you know what Christians did?
00:09:39.000Ah, we kind of don't like this, and they turned away from it.
00:09:43.000Can I just make one other small point?
00:09:46.000I mean, there is often this argument that, you know, because they're doing it to everyone...
00:10:21.000Yeah, but if you know that other people have the sanctity of the prophet as a matter of life and death in their own beliefs, then obviously that is something that we must take into consideration.
00:10:32.000Now, you may differ with that, but that is the situation with Muslims.
00:10:41.000You can become, you can become, look, I mean, you know, you may know in the heart of Europe for 800 years, the Jews, Muslims, and Christians went side by side.
00:10:50.000It was never the case of forcing the Christians or Jews to become Muslim.
00:10:54.000And in fact, it was the Christian hegemony under Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand that led the Jews to run to the Islamic State in Africa for protection.
00:11:01.000Actually, it's funny enough, in the Middle East, there's one place where Muslims live freely and open to practice religion as they choose, and that's Israel, and that's a big irony of our time.
00:11:59.000The jizya, incidentally, is much less than the Muslims pay in terms of zakat.
00:12:02.000You would be able to practice your religion in your church, in your homes.
00:12:05.000And, you know, nobody's going to be spying in your own private places, but definitely the law of the land in the public arena would be Sharia.
00:12:56.000There's nothing called crucifixion of Christians.
00:12:59.000But what we do have, if you look in the Quran in chapter 5, verse 33...
00:13:03.000What Allah said in the Quran, and I'm paraphrasing, is that those people who violate the public sanctity, in other words, for example, going around in gangs, raping, pillaging, etc., they have capital punishment.
00:13:14.000And their punishment could be crucifixion, or it could be cutting their hand and leg from opposite directions.
00:13:26.000You were on a talk show, and someone asked you about suicide bombing, which you said is not a term you really use, but using your body for Allah is the way that you view it, which I understand, according to your beliefs, is fair.
00:13:36.000And they asked you about the 72 virgins, and you made the point that 72 is often misquoted, right?
00:14:14.000What I meant to say is that, yes, there are narrations which talk about partners in heaven, but ultimately, what I say, as a Muslim, we believe that God can show you with ultimate blessings and things in the hereafter.
00:15:35.000Or do they just show up crap Well, I don't think, as I say, if you're talking about paradise, you cannot make the comparison.
00:15:43.000You know, and I could quote to you from your own Bible and Torah about things in paradise, but ultimately we don't make the comparison because, you know, this is a little bit...
00:16:58.000Having said that, he never beat any of his wives at all.
00:17:00.000But having said that, you know, the Qur'an in chapter 4 of the Qur'an talks about a situation where if your wife is disobeying you, continuously not fulfilling your rights, then it says, first of all, separate the beds.
00:17:13.000So that could be, obviously, one night.
00:17:15.000It could be a week or even up to a year.
00:17:17.000I mean, even that could be up to a year.
00:18:09.000I've never come across any narration like this.
00:18:10.000Well, we've got the quote right up here on screen and verse, and the viewers can make their decision.
00:18:15.000It's only those people who are enemies of the wise, probably like the Shia, who quote something like this, but it's not authentic.
00:18:21.000It's not authentic, so you would have to throw out that entire part of the Hadith.
00:18:25.000It's not in the Quran, and the Hadith, many of them have been fabricated, and there's nothing like that at all, authentically narrated here.
00:18:32.000Okay, so it is there, but it's just something that you wouldn't use, and that's fair.
00:18:36.000We could make up a lot of things, but the point is, I'm saying to you, it's not authentic.
00:18:42.000Well, no, I mean, as I say, I mean, you know, if you want to find something, you will always find some people who are enemies of the rise of the prophet, like the Shia, who will say things like this.
00:19:35.000Listen, I can respect that that is your view, and I hope that you feel I've let you speak more than I think some of my conservative brethren talk show hosts, because I am interested in what you have to say.
00:19:47.000I believe everyone should have a voice at the table.
00:19:49.000And Imam Anjim, we hope to have you back.
00:19:52.000I would sincerely love to have you back and continue these discussions.
00:19:55.000Well, thank you for being very respectful, and I look forward to coming back onto your show.
00:19:59.000Thank you very much, sir, and we hope to see you soon.
00:20:04.000And listen, I will tell you this, just like you hope I got into Islam, I hope to see you come to the cross one day, but that's because I love all my human brethren.