Louder with Crowder - HEATED: Are White People Too "Fragile?!" | Black & White On The Gray Issues

00:00:00.000 How would you categorize race relations between black and white people in the United States today?

00:00:05.000 From a media standpoint, division.

00:00:09.000 Welcome back for part two of the newest series, Black and White on the Gray Issues.

00:00:14.000 Last time I took to the streets to see if relations between black and white Americans were actually as bad as legacy media would have you believe.

00:00:20.000 And what do you know?

00:00:21.000 The narrative couldn't be further from the truth.

00:00:24.000 Turns out you can actually find some common ground and have great dialogues when you actually start talking with people.

00:00:30.000 That being said, I'd be lying if I said it was entirely smooth sailing.

00:00:34.000 If you talk to enough people, you will eventually find an outlier.

00:00:37.000 And this was an outlier.

00:00:39.000 Which took place in our final interview of the day.

00:00:42.000 Now, without spoiling too much, see if you can tell how this particular conversation went differently.

00:00:50.000 We would still be slaves if it was for you, baby.

00:00:54.000 Alright, just for a second.

00:00:54.000 It may be that I'm a little old-fashioned.

00:00:56.000 That seems a little wild to me.

00:00:58.000 But let me know in the comments below what you think.

00:01:01.000 Did this woman just offer fair assessment or pure, unadulterated insanity? 0.97

00:01:05.000 Let me ask you, where would you put or how would you categorize race relations between

00:01:13.000 black and white people in the United States today?

00:01:15.000 I think from a media standpoint, division.

00:01:19.000 Right.

00:01:20.000 I think that's where we are.

00:01:23.000 I think that there is division.

00:01:25.000 I do.

00:01:26.000 I think there's definitely some microaggressions and things like that that are apparent.

00:01:31.000 But on my everyday interacting, I think it's I think it's an array of things.

00:01:41.000 I think there's some positivity, there's some growth opportunities.

00:01:45.000 I think I have, within my circle, it's diverse.

00:01:52.000 And I love that it's diverse, but I also think that we're not having those conversations within my diverse community.

00:02:00.000 So when you say diverse, do you mean racially, do you mean ideologically, politically?

00:02:05.000 Um, politically and racially.

00:02:07.000 Okay.

00:02:08.000 So you have white, black, Republican, Democrat, all in your circle of friends?

00:02:08.000 Yeah.

00:02:13.000 Yes.

00:02:13.000 I have pretty much everything.

00:02:15.000 What would you say has kind of helped you?

00:02:18.000 I think learning from different people helps you grow.

00:02:20.000 What would you say has helped you grow more?

00:02:21.000 Having people of different races in your circle of friends or people of different ideologies?

00:02:26.000 People from different walks of life?

00:02:28.000 I think walks of life.

00:02:30.000 I think you learn more.

00:02:31.000 I think because I can meet another African American person who's had a different upbringing than I do and I'm learning what their struggle looks like versus my struggle because it's very different.

00:02:42.000 I think it's really truly about being open.

00:02:45.000 Open to listening, open to learning and having the conversations.

00:02:50.000 So, you're saying that in your day-to-day, your experiences have been good, probably because of your circle of friends.

00:02:55.000 Compared to the media, it sounds like you're saying there is some division out there, but not so much in your circle of friends.

00:03:01.000 Not within my circle of friends, because I choose them, right?

00:03:04.000 Right.

00:03:04.000 So this is my choice.

00:03:05.000 It's my choice to have people in my circle that I don't have to fight with all the time, that we are open and we learn from one another.

00:03:15.000 But I take a look at where we are in their schools.

00:03:18.000 They go to private schools.

00:03:20.000 So, there's complete division with racial divide, seeing our black boys in the private school arena getting in trouble where the white boys don't get in trouble for the same offense.

00:03:32.000 I see that every day.

00:03:33.000 Why don't you just take them out of private schools?

00:03:35.000 Because at the end of the day, it's a better education.

00:03:39.000 Is it?

00:03:40.000 Yeah.

00:03:41.000 Okay.

00:03:41.000 It is.

00:03:42.000 Because that's got to be tough then if you have to choose.

00:03:44.000 What kind of things do they get into trouble for that white kids wouldn't? 1.00

00:03:47.000 A fist fight.

00:03:49.000 I brought it up last year. 0.98

00:03:50.000 If you see two black kids in a fist fight, they'll probably get suspended. 0.63

00:03:53.000 You see two white kids in a fist fight, which rarely happens in private school, then it's a pat on the back. 0.96

00:04:00.000 I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious.

00:04:02.000 Is it rare, like, white kids get into a fight in a private school, or are you saying they get in just as many fights?

00:04:06.000 No.

00:04:07.000 Fight in general, at private school, is very rare.

00:04:09.000 In general.

00:04:09.000 Okay.

00:04:10.000 Yeah.

00:04:10.000 Whether white or black.

00:04:12.000 Whatever race it is. 0.75

00:04:13.000 Right.

00:04:13.000 Okay.

00:04:14.000 Yeah.

00:04:14.000 I was raised in Canada where we had a zero-tolerance policy, so it didn't matter if you defended yourself or you started the fight, you were all suspended, which I think is morally reprehensible.

00:04:22.000 I think it's... I think...

00:04:25.000 I was suspended because I got punched in the face.

00:04:26.000 Oh, that's not good.

00:04:27.000 No.

00:04:28.000 No, because you were defending yourself.

00:04:29.000 Yeah.

00:04:30.000 Well, I didn't really.

00:04:31.000 I mostly just turtled.

00:04:32.000 Oh, okay.

00:04:32.000 Well, I'm going to need you to defend next time.

00:04:34.000 I learned that later on. 0.97

00:04:36.000 But see, at that point I was a little bitch is what I was. 0.97

00:04:38.000 I didn't know. 0.98

00:04:39.000 The kid was two years older than me.

00:04:41.000 Oh, well that's not good.

00:04:42.000 Fourteen to sixteen is a huge difference.

00:04:44.000 You're not going to do anything.

00:04:45.000 In just maturity, body, you're just... it's all the whole thing.

00:04:50.000 The whole thing.

00:04:50.000 Yeah, the whole thing.

00:04:51.000 Oh, it was a terrible experience, but I think it's a good example.

00:04:53.000 We weren't teaching kids that, hey, not all violence is equivalent.

00:04:56.000 Like, if someone attacks you, you're saying this as a mom, you would probably want your kids to defend themselves.

00:05:00.000 To defend.

00:05:01.000 Yeah.

00:05:01.000 Yeah, of course I would.

00:05:02.000 Yeah, I mean, I think that's why it says there's a legal defense for defending yourself.

00:05:09.000 No, absolutely right.

00:05:10.000 You mentioned microaggressions.

00:05:12.000 So you're the first person today who's mentioned that.

00:05:16.000 What do you mean by that?

00:05:17.000 Microaggressions meaning they say little things, they meaning non people of color will say little things not realizing that it's a microaggression, not realizing that it's hurtful, that it's racism because it's so micro.

00:05:35.000 So, like, what would be an example of that?

00:05:37.000 My hair.

00:05:37.000 Oh, my God, can I touch your hair?

00:05:39.000 Oh, my God, is that real?

00:05:42.000 Things of that nature are... We didn't do that.

00:05:46.000 It's just... Carrington, you want to give me some microaggressions?

00:05:54.000 Well, you speak so well, even though I'm just using basic English.

00:05:58.000 Because they assume I'm going to be speaking using AAVE or vernacular or verbonics, whatever you want to say it, put it as.

00:06:07.000 But yeah, it's just things like that, little things.

00:06:09.000 I remember in 6th grade, somebody said my hair looked like spaghetti hair because I had twist and I don't know what y'all... look it up, look up

00:06:18.000 twist. I have like round twists in and they said my hair looks like burnt spaghetti.

00:06:22.000 And that's a microaggression, right? You don't realize it, but it is hurtful in the long run and it makes you feel

00:06:28.000 othered. And that's not okay.

00:06:29.000 When I was in high school, I had a horrible haircut and it was cut very short on the sides and I was told that I

00:06:37.000 looked like a retard Patrick Dempsey. 0.98

00:06:38.000 Nice. 0.73

00:06:39.000 So it wasn't so much a microaggression as a...

00:06:41.000 That's just aggression.

00:06:42.000 That's just aggression-aggression.

00:06:44.000 But my point is that happens to everybody.

00:06:46.000 My question is, I think maybe it comes down to, is that necessarily racist?

00:06:51.000 Or if we just view it through the lens of, maybe this is something I'm uncomfortable with, but they're not meaning it to be racist, right?

00:06:57.000 Racism would have to come with intent.

00:07:00.000 Racism does not have to be intentional.

00:07:03.000 Racism can be subtle for sure.

00:07:05.000 It can be subtle.

00:07:06.000 There's something called internalized racism because of how society just shows things off, right?

00:07:12.000 A lot of women, a lot of girls, just look at Disney princesses. 1.00

00:07:14.000 There's only one black Disney princess and that's not crazy, but little girls look at their little princesses, right? 1.00

00:07:19.000 And they look at all this array of like plenty of white women, right? 1.00

00:07:23.000 And they aspire to be that a lot of the times.

00:07:25.000 And I feel like little things like that, you're internalizing racism,

00:07:28.000 even though it's not blatant racism.

00:07:31.000 I think everyone thinks that racism is this thing that people go out and hurt people with, but a lot of the time it's just the way you think.

00:07:38.000 You think white bodies and white people first, and don't necessarily think about people of color in your life, right?

00:07:43.000 It's more so a mindset than blatant hurting people, you know what I mean?

00:07:49.000 What would be, I guess, I'm sorry, are you comfortable talking with your mom?

00:07:52.000 Oh, I'm sure.

00:07:53.000 Okay, here, do you mind getting into this so I don't, because right now the camera's going to be going back and forth like a Wes Anderson film, so you see we're not trying to sandbag.

00:08:00.000 What was your name, by the way?

00:08:01.000 I'm Carrington.

00:08:02.000 This is what she does, she's so amazing.

00:08:02.000 Carrington?

00:08:04.000 Carrington, Stephen, and Eddie.

00:08:04.000 Eddie, yep.

00:08:05.000 Could you give me some examples there, maybe more examples of internalized racism?

00:08:09.000 Because let me tell you where white people are nervous, okay?

00:08:11.000 Okay.

00:08:11.000 I'd love to hear that.

00:08:13.000 Yeah, so, in other words, if you're talking about white people being racist, right, toward you, and that's a legitimate concern, of course, in some places you're going to have individual racists.

00:08:23.000 It's a different conversation from systemic racism, right, or internalized racism, but we all acknowledge that.

00:08:28.000 I will tell you this, the reason that a lot of white people don't have these kinds of conversations, like this, is because they're afraid of being accused of being... No, they're afraid of being accused of being racist.

00:08:39.000 Well, see, that is an attack, to just say white fragility. 0.86

00:08:41.000 What if someone, for example, we just interviewed every single black man that we interviewed today, every single one, said, yeah, the Black Lives Matter thing got out of hand, all lives matter, everyone's lives matter, and I don't think that was good for either community.

00:08:52.000 Every single black man that we interviewed today.

00:08:54.000 And if I were to say that same thing, right, because I don't think the problem is just race, and I think we do have a failed justice system, by the way.

00:09:00.000 I think you'll miss it if you think it's just race.

00:09:03.000 Well, we can't classify that as white fragility or microaggression. 0.59

00:09:07.000 I disagree with every white man, every black man you spoke with today.

00:09:10.000 But they're entitled to their opinion.

00:09:13.000 It surprised me that they said it.

00:09:14.000 White fragility means that... I think we're on the same page. 1.00

00:09:17.000 You're just defining it as different.

00:09:19.000 Fragility means when white people are afraid to confront the fact that they might have racism or might have racist thoughts. 0.82

00:09:24.000 That's white fragility. 0.99

00:09:25.000 But what if they don't?

00:09:26.000 They don't.

00:09:27.000 Literally almost everybody in America does because of the way America works.

00:09:31.000 Even black people have racist thoughts towards black people, right?

00:09:34.000 So it's kind of hard to get out of there unless you're like not from America and even then it's pretty difficult.

00:09:40.000 So literally everyone has some form of racist thoughts but white people it's just easier because they're not Black or they're not a person of color, they don't have the system around them necessarily to confront that, because they don't have to, right?

00:09:52.000 So it takes more work on their part, right?

00:09:54.000 And there's nothing really necessarily, well that's, it's not great, but there's nothing wrong with working more harder to get to a certain point, you know what I mean?

00:10:01.000 So.

00:10:01.000 Okay.

00:10:02.000 So, I just want to be clear that I understand, as a, you know, white guy, obviously, um, is, uh, and I, I get it.

00:10:07.000 Look, we're coming from different perspectives.

00:10:09.000 You're defining something that you just said would require more work, right, and would be a form of racism that they may not know, Yeah.

00:10:15.000 Yeah.

00:10:15.000 frankly, is something that they were born with white fragility, through no fault of their own.

00:10:21.000 What you just outlined is racism. Right. I mean, no, you saying white fragility,

00:10:30.000 that's what that would be racist toward like saying, yeah, you are blamed for something

00:10:35.000 that you were born with. 0.99

00:10:36.000 You have white fragility just because you're black. 1.00

00:10:38.000 So, racism, no. 0.96

00:10:39.000 Literally everybody has their own form of racial fragility.

00:10:41.000 You know that, right?

00:10:42.000 So there is black fragility is a term that's taught. 0.98

00:10:44.000 Two, Latino fragility. 1.00

00:10:47.000 I mean, everyone can be racist towards certain people, and when black people are called out for certain things in the black community that are not necessarily great for the black community, they get- sometimes they'll get defensive, especially if it's not somebody coming from the black community, because one, that could be seen as like, perceived hate because you never know who you're talking to, and also just because like, White fragility is a complicated subject because a lot of people feel it, you know what I mean?

00:11:08.000 And it does hurt people, their emotions, so it's really hard to just kind of break that down.

00:11:14.000 And I feel like that's really the issue, is people are not willing to break that down.

00:11:18.000 Having white fragility is not a good thing, but most white people have it, so we have to work through it, you know what I mean? 0.99

00:11:23.000 I think it's just because society puts this on other people.

00:11:26.000 It's not necessarily white people's fault, it's society's fault for putting that on white people, and that's a lot of things with racism.

00:11:31.000 Society puts things on black people, right? 0.98

00:11:34.000 I think white people put it on themselves. 0.62

00:11:36.000 I don't think so. 0.89

00:11:37.000 I think white people are society.

00:11:39.000 I think it's one and the same.

00:11:41.000 Okay, so let me explain.

00:11:43.000 Our society is based off of white supremacy from a historical standpoint, right?

00:11:47.000 From the Tulsa Massacre to slavery to literally like all our presidents except for one being black from the long history period of time, right? 0.91

00:11:56.000 Our society is based on the ideal of whiteness. 0.97

00:11:59.000 We live from a nuclear household, one, two parent households, things like that.

00:12:03.000 Black people can have two parent households, but that's not how our community has ever 1.00

00:12:06.000 been based.

00:12:07.000 Even from Africa, we have been based on a village style of living and working together.

00:12:12.000 It takes a whole village to raise a child, and Black people truly embody that. 1.00

00:12:15.000 While white people tend to have more of a nuclear family, one parent, I mean two parents 0.86

00:12:19.000 and a few children, and they work together, right?

00:12:21.000 There's nothing certainly wrong with a nuclear family, but it does, it is like an embodiment of the American dream and whiteness, right? 0.99

00:12:27.000 So because society's built on all this whiteness and all of these standpoints that are made for white people, they're just more used to that, right? 0.89

00:12:35.000 And they're not really used to thinking outside the box and thinking about people of color, and that's what I'm talking about.

00:12:40.000 And when they're confronted at the fact that they don't think about people of color, you get white fragility because they're scared, and they didn't want to realize that they Let me rephrase this.

00:12:49.000 They didn't realize that they weren't thinking about people of color or they were in the back of their mind and they

00:12:54.000 get scared.

00:12:55.000 Right?

00:12:58.000 I hear you, but I disagree with you because I think right now at this very moment you saying that's racist is

00:13:06.000 privilege, honey. 0.97

00:13:08.000 That's nothing but privilege.

00:13:09.000 It's white privilege to be able to say that.

00:13:12.000 I'm not sure I should be able to say that.

00:13:15.000 No, to be able to say it and to live in that, I think it's white privilege.

00:13:18.000 You're not making the right argument.

00:13:20.000 The definition of racism is power behind discrimination.

00:13:24.000 You can discriminate against white people. 0.81

00:13:25.000 Anyone can.

00:13:26.000 But you can't necessarily be racist towards white people because racism comes from discrimination plus a place in society where you get to have power, right?

00:13:34.000 That is the clinical... not clinical.

00:13:36.000 If you look on Google, that's not necessarily what you're gonna get because Google dumbs things down, right?

00:13:40.000 But if you look on like... We agree there.

00:13:42.000 Yeah.

00:13:42.000 Right, so if you look at like more like racial context, if you look at like Bell, oh my god I forgot her name, Bell Hooks, and so many different racial scholars, that's the definition that is greatly read on in the academic space.

00:13:53.000 So racism is discrimination plus power, essentially.

00:13:57.000 So white people have more power than most people of color, all people of color in the United States, while some people of color don't have as much power.

00:14:03.000 So punching up is not the same as punching down.

00:14:05.000 Anybody can discriminate against anybody, that's just a fact.

00:14:08.000 But racism is based on a system of power.

00:14:13.000 Now, I don't know if this would be... Would you be open to the idea that some of those things...

00:14:17.000 The nuclear family.

00:14:19.000 That's a big one.

00:14:20.000 I don't know if you know this, but in the United States, there was a far lower divorce rate for a very long period of time, at the same time that black households had higher literacy rates.

00:14:29.000 There's no issues with that.

00:14:31.000 What I'm talking about is the nuclear family.

00:14:34.000 That's a big one.

00:14:35.000 I don't know if you know this, but in the United States, there was a far lower divorce

00:14:39.000 rate for a very long period of time, at the same time that black households had higher

00:14:42.000 literacy rates.

00:14:43.000 Do you know why there was a lower divorce rate?

00:14:45.000 There was a lower divorce rate for a very long time.

00:14:47.000 Because women had to. 1.00

00:14:47.000 You know why? 1.00

00:14:48.000 Because they didn't own credit cards.

00:14:50.000 They couldn't get divorced.

00:14:51.000 They couldn't live without a man.

00:14:52.000 That's literally the reason why the divorce rate was so low.

00:14:54.000 No, no, no.

00:14:55.000 I'm talking about before this, by the way, historically.

00:14:56.000 We're talking about from the inception of the country, before the suffragette movement.

00:15:00.000 So this would be the same thing that white women and black women would face, the issues you're talking about. 0.93

00:15:03.000 So those same groups.

00:15:05.000 Black families were very strong, had low divorce rates, had large households.

00:15:08.000 And a big part of it was because of the faith basis back then.

00:15:12.000 And it was, again, the community, right?

00:15:13.000 The church.

00:15:14.000 That's a big community thing.

00:15:16.000 Yes.

00:15:16.000 My dad.

00:15:16.000 I noticed Eddie you have a wedding ring.

00:15:18.000 Are you married?

00:15:20.000 Yes, my dad.

00:15:22.000 Now let me ask you, why?

00:15:24.000 Why what?

00:15:26.000 Why send your kids to private school, which is very commendable.

00:15:28.000 You obviously care about your kids.

00:15:29.000 You're married.

00:15:30.000 If I didn't, I would still care.

00:15:32.000 I'm financially able.

00:15:32.000 Sure.

00:15:34.000 Right.

00:15:35.000 But do you think that the reason you choose to be married and have a nuclear household, did you make that decision because it was what you thought was best?

00:15:42.000 Or do you think that's because of white supremacy, white fragility?

00:15:46.000 Well, there's things that are implicit.

00:15:48.000 And also, like, for my mom, it's just because she loves my dad.

00:15:51.000 Our household's not that nuclear because we have so many people that support us outside of our house.

00:15:55.000 Like, it's not just all mom and dad.

00:15:56.000 If I want to go to my uncle, he'll take care of me.

00:15:58.000 It's not really that nuclear.

00:15:58.000 You know what I mean?

00:16:00.000 My husband is fine.

00:16:02.000 Yeah.

00:16:02.000 And I love him.

00:16:03.000 He's my man.

00:16:04.000 And that's why.

00:16:06.000 That's a wonderful thing.

00:16:07.000 That's it.

00:16:07.000 Yeah.

00:16:08.000 So it's not a byproduct of...

00:16:10.000 For that one, there's a reason.

00:16:12.000 We don't really live in a nuclear household anyway in our home.

00:16:15.000 It's a village.

00:16:17.000 So we can't really apply that to us anyways.

00:16:20.000 You can. Do you know how many kids, white or black, go to private school?

00:16:24.000 They don't have a mom and dad in the house?

00:16:26.000 Statistically none, whether you're white or black.

00:16:28.000 It's very, very rare.

00:16:28.000 It's very difficult, yeah.

00:16:29.000 I have 20 friends.

00:16:30.000 It helps with two parents who are still there.

00:16:31.000 That's a big, that's a, and I think that's, by the way, it's a huge blessing.

00:16:34.000 I think what you just said about your husband, I would love to hear everyone say about their husband.

00:16:37.000 Yeah, she loves him very much.

00:16:38.000 Yeah, that's one thing, actually, when we talk about it, I think that a lot of white women probably could learn from this. 1.00

00:16:43.000 There's a lot of loyalty in the black community, a sense of community that often white people do not have.

00:16:48.000 And you'll see it with men and women.

00:16:49.000 You'll see it with them leaving pretty quickly.

00:16:51.000 I think that's a beautiful thing, but I think that's huge.

00:16:55.000 privilege for everybody regardless of race. But historically if someone... and I don't even want

00:17:00.000 to get into exactly where I would disagree historically as far as you know Africa,

00:17:05.000 the idea of the nuclear family being white supremacy or Disney princesses. But my question

00:17:08.000 is where can a white person, because that conversation's all that, where can a white

00:17:13.000 person disagree and say yeah that's not racism or you know what I don't I don't agree with the idea

00:17:19.000 of white fragility and them not be a racist. Okay.

00:17:22.000 Because I was just told that that is privilege to even say, I disagree with your opinion.

00:17:27.000 No.

00:17:27.000 No, that's not necessarily what we're saying.

00:17:29.000 You kind of low-key said that.

00:17:30.000 Anyways, but what I'm saying is if you have the facts...

00:17:36.000 If you have the backing and there's no issue with debating something but you need to understand what the core is.

00:17:46.000 So if somebody said, I don't think white fragility exists because of x, y, z reasons, and someone comes back with no,

00:17:51.000 and they're still very hard-headed about it, or they don't see the reasons,

00:17:56.000 or they don't really look into those facts, that's where the issue lies.

00:17:59.000 If there's an actual discussion, I don't really care if you think white fragility

00:18:02.000 is real or not, because eventually, you are going to come to an opinion

00:18:07.000 that is not necessarily based on how you feel, but on facts, and then from there,

00:18:10.000 you can do whatever you want.

00:18:11.000 I don't necessarily care about what people.

00:18:14.000 So if someone were to go through, for example, just to kind of use your timeline,

00:18:17.000 and if someone was raised in Canada, right, not the United States, just want to use your timeline,

00:18:20.000 say, actually, according to Professor West, black men, black activists, well over 95% of slaves in

00:18:27.000 Africa were sold into slavery by African slave traders,

00:18:29.000 including largely black activists. 0.83

00:18:30.000 Still wrong, but yeah.

00:18:31.000 Of course it's wrong.

00:18:32.000 And this was the first country to fight the bloodiest revolution in history in order to free the slaves, because they recognized that it was ungodly, based on the Judeo-Christian principles of the Sunday Emancipation Proclamation, We were not uniquely responsible for starting slavery, we were uniquely responsible for ending it in the modern world. 0.70

00:18:44.000 And there are more slaves today than ever in recorded history.

00:18:47.000 We're on earth right now, 42 million.

00:18:51.000 42 million, and someone says, so since there are more slaves on earth today, largely in the Middle East, in Africa, and in Asia, Also, you can't really say white people ended racism because black people fought to end racism.

00:19:00.000 So white people are the reason we still exist in the first place. 1.00

00:19:03.000 We would still be slaves if it was for you, baby. 1.00

00:19:05.000 If it was for white people. 0.95

00:19:06.000 I think you came through it very incorrectly without understanding the basis and the foundation of the African

00:19:12.000 American community.

00:19:13.000 I can't say white people ended racism because black people fought to end racism.

00:19:17.000 So white people are the reason we still exist in the first place. 1.00

00:19:20.000 We would still be slaves if it was for you baby. 1.00

00:19:22.000 If for white people. We would still be enslaved. 1.00

00:19:25.000 I believe that. I believe that.

00:19:26.000 How much have you read from Washington, from Jefferson, from Lincoln? 0.98

00:19:31.000 After he was raping all the slave women and making babies with them and all that? 0.99

00:19:36.000 That is very true. 0.99

00:19:38.000 We're talking about Jefferson?

00:19:39.000 It is true that they freed their slaves upon their death because it was illegal at that point. 0.98

00:19:44.000 It's very true that he raped slaves and he has children. 0.93

00:19:47.000 He has children by her. 0.99

00:19:48.000 Hamilton's wife had plenty of slaves. 1.00

00:19:50.000 So let's not even go there.

00:19:51.000 They all had slaves.

00:19:55.000 That's not a good take. 1.00

00:19:55.000 I mean, I've raped them and had children. 1.00

00:19:57.000 Jefferson did. 1.00

00:19:58.000 Jefferson definitely did.

00:19:59.000 Jefferson has a line of children.

00:20:00.000 Okay, so do you believe, you believe that if it were up to all white people, meaning

00:20:04.000 the North, that people would still be enslaved?

00:20:06.000 No, not there.

00:20:07.000 That's not a good take.

00:20:08.000 Anyways, I love you, but no.

00:20:11.000 I believe that, and that's my belief.

00:20:14.000 So what was the start of entering slavery?

00:20:16.000 Because Quakers existed, you know? 1.00

00:20:18.000 But what I am saying is that, because Quakers existed, you can't blame all, you know?

00:20:21.000 I don't want to blame all, but I do think that because we fought... You can't say that all white people, there's Quakers and people that exist like that.

00:20:28.000 I'm saying a lot of white people in the past did not want a change in slavery.

00:20:30.000 I mean, like, very much that.

00:20:32.000 That's what I'm saying, not all white people today. 0.88

00:20:34.000 I'm saying from that Can I say something though?

00:20:36.000 For both of you, because you both obviously are, even though she's 17, she can run circles around you every day.

00:20:40.000 There's a lot of people who did, there's a lot of people, I don't know, there's some people who didn't.

00:20:43.000 But what I'm saying is the reason that we got out of slavery is because of our work.

00:20:47.000 Can I say something though?

00:20:49.000 Without, for both of you, because you both obviously are, even though she's 17,

00:20:55.000 she can run circles around you every day, y'all are really good at this.

00:20:58.000 She's waiting for it.

00:20:59.000 Yeah, she's really good.

00:21:01.000 I still feel like we're not going to get anywhere with this conversation.

00:21:05.000 Right, because we started off with the idea that it must be based on racism.

00:21:09.000 We're not growing in this conversation at all.

00:21:12.000 And you can't.

00:21:13.000 You're defending.

00:21:15.000 And she's defending.

00:21:16.000 Nobody is moving forward.

00:21:17.000 Wouldn't it be incumbent?

00:21:18.000 In other words, we're talking about defending.

00:21:19.000 And this is why I say we've had a lot of conversations.

00:21:21.000 This is why we're down here, right?

00:21:23.000 The first person to say white fragility is something that can't be disproven That is the conversation where it cannot be productive because it starts from a racist premise.

00:21:32.000 If I were to come in and say, hey, you know what, not enough black people and white people are talking about these issues, and that's because black people are incredibly fragile, that probably wouldn't be a productive conversation, right? 1.00

00:21:43.000 I think we can say that. 0.63

00:21:44.000 I think I'm intelligent enough to have that conversation and skew you differently. 0.90

00:21:46.000 I think you can definitely say that black people are fragile about certain things. 1.00

00:21:49.000 I think there's something wrong with saying that. 0.75

00:21:50.000 Because there's truth to it.

00:21:51.000 There's truth to that.

00:21:52.000 I think every race is fragile at certain things within that race.

00:21:54.000 I don't think that's a... No, I don't.

00:21:57.000 I disagree. 0.86

00:21:58.000 No, you can say black people are fragile about this certain thing. 1.00

00:22:01.000 I feel black people are fragile. 1.00

00:22:02.000 You can say that and then we can then educate you on why. 0.97

00:22:06.000 When I talk to you about right fragility, every time you come up with, like, this is racist, this is racist, this is racist, almost every single time.

00:22:06.000 Yes.

00:22:06.000 Right?

00:22:12.000 Because it is.

00:22:13.000 And I disagree with you on that because racism is power plus oppression, right?

00:22:18.000 I mean power plus discrimination, right?

00:22:20.000 And you can't have right fragility because there's no White people can't be... Refugility is not racist because it has no power behind it, right? 0.98

00:22:31.000 Or it has... I mean, there has power behind it towards black people. 0.86

00:22:33.000 That's why it is... Like, white people having refugility is racist. 0.51

00:22:37.000 Does that mean? 0.96

00:22:38.000 Because that means they have a racial... Do you believe that black people have no power behind them in the United States?

00:22:45.000 I think every race has power behind them.

00:22:47.000 I mean, there's power in numbers, but I don't think our power is equal to the white man.

00:22:51.000 Oh, exactly.

00:22:52.000 So here's my question for you.

00:22:53.000 I think it depends on the person.

00:22:55.000 I don't.

00:22:56.000 I think it depends on the white person.

00:22:58.000 We're talking about systematically, right?

00:23:00.000 It's an industrial system and things like that.

00:23:02.000 And racial profiling and how people think things, how people categorize and stereotypes and the Jezebel and the Sapphire.

00:23:08.000 I think that's the word.

00:23:09.000 I think I messed up the word on that.

00:23:10.000 Maybe I didn't.

00:23:11.000 You're just throwing out words.

00:23:15.000 Jezebel can apply to white people, too. 0.73

00:23:18.000 It can, but historically, especially in minstrel shows, it applies to black women. 0.97

00:23:23.000 That stereotype is placed more on black women. 1.00

00:23:25.000 It can apply to white people, but it's not as often.

00:23:28.000 We're just across from the restaurant at the Slutty Vegan.

00:23:30.000 I mean, it's something that goes across the board.

00:23:32.000 My point is that we identify as a racial issue.

00:23:32.000 I know.

00:23:34.000 Slutty Vegan is owned by a black woman. 0.99

00:23:36.000 But anyways, what we're saying is that... There are plenty of sluts. 1.00

00:23:40.000 A lot of people like them. 1.00

00:23:42.000 Jezebel is biblical.

00:23:44.000 It's biblical, but it also historically has been used against black people in minstrel shows a lot, too. 0.94

00:23:49.000 Jezebel has a slightly more racial-coded tone than the word slut does. 0.81

00:23:53.000 Do you feel what I mean?

00:23:54.000 Any of those problems that you identify... Because there's one thing we've talked about today.

00:23:57.000 Any of those problems that you just identified, for example, you talk about the prison-industrial complex, you talk about schools, you talk about government.

00:24:02.000 Are any of those problems not racially based?

00:24:05.000 So, prison-industrial system, definitely.

00:24:07.000 What was the next one?

00:24:09.000 Public education.

00:24:11.000 Because of where living spaces are and because of systems and slums and redlining and all of those things. 0.92

00:24:18.000 That's based on anti-blackness and also based on class.

00:24:24.000 You can toss Disney in there. 0.70

00:24:28.000 Disney has racism too.

00:24:29.000 Or Tide, the baby company.

00:24:32.000 Anyways.

00:24:33.000 I lost a ton of money on those.

00:24:35.000 I'm really waiting for them to go up in value.

00:24:37.000 Do you realize that Ty the Beanie Baby Company right now owns the license for all the Disney princesses but he refuses to make one Disney princess and that happens to be Tiana.

00:24:46.000 He refuses to make that one.

00:24:48.000 Yeah.

00:24:48.000 So I'm just saying it lies within so many different facets.

00:24:52.000 I gotta tell you.

00:24:54.000 Yeah.

00:24:54.000 There's nothing to say about that.

00:24:55.000 That's just horrible.

00:24:58.000 Yeah, I don't know that that's even true or that it's because of her race.

00:25:01.000 I know that Princess and the Frog was one of the most successful modern Disney films, and we just had a Black Mermaid that comes from it.

00:25:10.000 Director of marketing.

00:25:11.000 It's very true.

00:25:12.000 I worked for the company for five years.

00:25:14.000 So instead of saying, I don't know that's true, I would love for you to say, Oh my God, that must be hurtful.

00:25:21.000 This is where the divide is.

00:25:22.000 You automatically went to, you automatically, let me speak.

00:25:26.000 You automatically went for, back up a little bit.

00:25:29.000 You automatically went for the, I don't know if that's true.

00:25:33.000 I don't, I don't know.

00:25:34.000 I don't know.

00:25:35.000 Instead of saying, wow, could that be true?

00:25:38.000 If so, That must be horrible.

00:25:40.000 I'm telling you what the tone is that you just set for me.

00:25:41.000 I'm telling you what the tone is that you just set for me.

00:25:45.000 You've been wrong about so much that I don't trust what you're telling me.

00:25:47.000 You just said that there weren't white people freeing the slaves, 0.84

00:25:49.000 that it was only because of black people.

00:25:50.000 I didn't say that. 1.00

00:25:51.000 So Jefferson raped his woman. 0.99

00:25:52.000 I never said that. 0.95

00:25:53.000 It's just not accurate.

00:25:54.000 So I'll take your word for it.

00:25:55.000 How do you know he didn't rape his woman?

00:25:57.000 There's a guy named David Barton. 0.57

00:25:59.000 He has a bunch of destroyable artifacts.

00:26:00.000 Were you there?

00:26:01.000 Mama, this is not... Mama, this is not an argument.

00:26:01.000 So, were you?

00:26:03.000 So, can I answer your question?

00:26:04.000 Can I speak?

00:26:05.000 Can I speak?

00:26:05.000 Then let's both say no.

00:26:07.000 Then let's both say no.

00:26:07.000 Can I speak?

00:26:08.000 We both don't know.

00:26:09.000 This is... I think we're kind of identifying a primary issue.

00:26:11.000 No, stop saying mom to me.

00:26:12.000 It's not black-white.

00:26:14.000 It's male-female. 0.93

00:26:16.000 I think that's the issue that we're running into here.

00:26:17.000 No, it is black and white.

00:26:18.000 It's very black and white.

00:26:19.000 I think that the interrupting and the aggression and the implication that someone needs to back up when I have not taken any closer steps towards you.

00:26:24.000 I don't care, but I feel uncomfortable.

00:26:26.000 It's a notably female issue.

00:26:27.000 It's not.

00:26:28.000 And we've been able to have productive conversations with black men across the board and, by the way, most women.

00:26:33.000 But there does seem to be a divide in interrupting.

00:26:37.000 And being abrasive and certainly being more aggressive.

00:26:41.000 Wait a minute.

00:26:42.000 I didn't start out that way.

00:26:43.000 Let me say this.

00:26:44.000 It is a trap.

00:26:45.000 Let me say this.

00:26:45.000 It didn't start out that way.

00:26:46.000 Let me say this. It is a trap. Let me say this. It didn't start out that way. You made me feel that way.

00:26:54.000 I don't care.

00:26:56.000 Okay, good.

00:26:57.000 End of conversation.

00:26:58.000 I cared about the facts.

00:26:59.000 I wasn't intending to make you feel that way.

00:27:00.000 It's the end of the conversation.

00:27:02.000 That's fine.

00:27:02.000 You've just shown your true colors.

00:27:04.000 I don't care that you feel that way if you're wrong.

00:27:06.000 Yes, you were trapped, and you guys, and this is horrible.

00:27:08.000 Every single conversation today has been productive, and we found more in common than less.

00:27:12.000 Every single one.

00:27:13.000 Yeah.

00:27:13.000 With the exception of this, and this is the only one, where I was told I couldn't have an opinion because of

00:27:17.000 white fragility, and I just said...

00:27:19.000 You could have an opinion. I said personally that you could have an opinion, right?

00:27:23.000 I said that multiple times, as long as you come with facts and like proof, right?

00:27:26.000 Because, okay, here's my thing...

00:27:27.000 We haven't addressed any of them.

00:27:28.000 We have, especially with the same thing I said from my sources and from my facts,

00:27:32.000 we have a difference of facts and opinions, so we should have dropped that

00:27:34.000 totally and completely and gone to something else, like maybe the prison industrial system,

00:27:39.000 or maybe something else that has more basis, but you just kind of hounded on the fact

00:27:43.000 of one thing, and you didn't really address.

00:27:46.000 This is not like a great conversation to have, right?

00:27:48.000 And from my mom, she's not like...

00:27:51.000 I'm trained in debate, so I know how to...

00:27:55.000 What trap have I laid?

00:27:55.000 certain debates you're making and I know how to move around them or know how to

00:27:58.000 deal with them. She does not. So she'll fall into that trap a little bit more easily of how...

00:28:03.000 What trap have I laid? I'm really not trying to lay a trap.

00:28:06.000 You're not laying a trap, but you're being difficult to talk to and understand.

00:28:09.000 There's a lack of empathy on both sides. And I feel like that's the main

00:28:13.000 issue is there's a lack of empathy on both sides and we're not really reading

00:28:15.000 each other or hearing each other. And that's where the main issue is. And mom, she's

00:28:20.000 pretty strong-willed, she's pretty strong-headed, and when she comes to 0.69

00:28:22.000 debate, she comes to win. I come from a different perspective.

00:28:25.000 So my goal was this...

00:28:27.000 My goal was this.

00:28:29.000 First to hear each other.

00:28:30.000 And within this conversation, I didn't feel that.

00:28:35.000 You just told me I don't care.

00:28:35.000 It changed.

00:28:37.000 You just said there's no facts.

00:28:39.000 You just told me everything.

00:28:41.000 Negative, instead of listening and hearing.

00:28:44.000 And I thought this conversation would have been completely different, and now I feel like I'm in a trap.

00:28:47.000 Well, the good news is you'll be able to rewind it, and you'll be able to see the behavior that you have exhibited here, and not myself.

00:28:53.000 And you can watch it, you can rewind it. 0.90

00:28:55.000 That's what you think of black women. 1.00

00:28:57.000 Mom, you're making a whole lot of statements right now that are not helping this conversation and making you look worse.

00:29:02.000 Is it possible that I think that maybe you've been impolite?

00:29:04.000 That maybe you've been inaccurate in some of your assumptions yourself, and not because you're black? 0.96

00:29:08.000 I think we've both been impolite. 0.99

00:29:11.000 And not because you're black. 0.96

00:29:12.000 So why does it have anything to do with your race? 0.93

00:29:14.000 I just think you've been aggressive.

00:29:17.000 So here's the thing.

00:29:18.000 Here's what I want you to hear.

00:29:20.000 Whenever a woman, or a black woman, asserts herself, or says, this is incorrect.

00:29:28.000 Please don't do it.

00:29:30.000 It's so tired to do that.

00:29:31.000 The conversation is now over.

00:29:33.000 Have a wonderful day.

00:29:34.000 Because of the way you're treating me. 0.56

00:29:38.000 When you say, every time a black woman asserts herself, no. 0.93

00:29:42.000 No.

00:29:43.000 That's not true.

00:29:45.000 That's not what's happening here.

00:29:46.000 A lot of times, often, there's a thing called tone policing.

00:29:48.000 I'm sure you know about it, right?

00:29:50.000 Sure.

00:29:50.000 And that happens a lot often to people that have these conversations.

00:29:54.000 When people get aggressive about something that hurts them, a lot of people will tell them they're being aggressive instead of looking deeper.

00:29:58.000 Passion.

00:29:59.000 Mom, instead of looking deeper into what's going on and seeing how that hurts them and having empathy.

00:30:03.000 Empathy is the biggest thing.

00:30:05.000 I have, but the thing is that you're not hearing me.

00:30:06.000 I'm trying to hear you.

00:30:07.000 The root cause of it is historical inaccuracy and lies that you've been fed.

00:30:11.000 To say that the nuclear family is white supremacy or is an example of white supremacy, here's the thing.

00:30:15.000 Do any of those ideas make black children's lives better? 0.92

00:30:19.000 It makes it worse.

00:30:20.000 It makes it worse.

00:30:21.000 The nuclear family does not make really anybody's lives better. 0.92

00:30:23.000 It's the single biggest indicator that you have success, of ending up in prison, of graduating high school, of being illiterate, or having successful marriage or marriage.

00:30:29.000 Having two parents, sure, that's useful.

00:30:30.000 Having a mom and dad and them involved in your life.

00:30:32.000 It's not even close.

00:30:33.000 Because of the nuclear family, right?

00:30:35.000 Having your mom and dad, right?

00:30:36.000 Yes.

00:30:37.000 But what if an uncle takes that place of the dad?

00:30:39.000 You can still have those benefits, right?

00:30:41.000 It's more so just only having one parent to depend on.

00:30:43.000 It's not because of the nuclear family.

00:30:45.000 It's having one parent to depend on.

00:30:47.000 If one parent, let's say, died, right?

00:30:51.000 But they had the entire family come in and help those children, they're probably still as well off.

00:30:55.000 Right.

00:30:56.000 So why is that not happening in the black community?

00:30:57.000 It is.

00:30:58.000 It is.

00:30:59.000 The black community is very communal.

00:31:01.000 We're living it.

00:31:01.000 I think it's a beautiful thing that you are living it, but it's not.

00:31:04.000 Statistically, it's not.

00:31:05.000 Statistically, there are more children in the black community.

00:31:09.000 The single household is not even close and the family is not stepping in.

00:31:13.000 And if you look at the tables, if you look at the statistics regarding literacy, regarding graduating high school, regarding crime, regarding how much money... I feel like that's more of a class issue.

00:31:19.000 I'm talking about, like, okay, fencing you.

00:31:21.000 Yeah.

00:31:23.000 It's the single biggest indicator that we have of one's success in life.

00:31:26.000 From behavioral issues to successful relationships themselves, to going to school... For behavioral issues... I'm a walkout.

00:31:33.000 Also, yeah.

00:31:34.000 I'm telling you exactly what I think it is.

00:31:35.000 I think it's very important for children to have parents in their lives.

00:31:38.000 In psychology, because I plan on being a psychology major and I study this a lot, a lot of time for medical issues and things like that, people will often diagnose black children with behavioral issues instead of looking at other criteria.

00:31:49.000 Prison.

00:31:51.000 Murder, arson, theft.

00:31:52.000 I'm not talking about ADHD.

00:31:54.000 I'm talking about the chances of single parent households murder, prison, theft, violent crimes, right? 0.95

00:31:59.000 I apologize for being myopic.

00:32:01.000 This is like a little pinpoint so I can get you to see like a bigger picture, I suppose.

00:32:05.000 So when you look at like...

00:32:06.000 I apologize for being myopic.

00:32:07.000 Yeah, so...

00:32:08.000 What did you say?

00:32:09.000 I said I apologize for being myopic.

00:32:11.000 Yeah.

00:32:12.000 So, um, when we look at bat children, right, they're more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD

00:32:16.000 and things like that, but also behavioral issues.

00:32:18.000 I'm not sure what was that.

00:32:19.000 They tend to be... I just didn't hear it.

00:32:22.000 Like, different mental issues and behavioral issues, right?

00:32:24.000 Let's go with that.

00:32:25.000 So, uh, they're more likely to be diagnosed with behavioral issues instead of, like, other mental conditions, right?

00:32:30.000 But in reality, they might fit those better because of the perceived racial biases a lot of people have, right?

00:32:36.000 And this goes to medicine, how black women are treated, and how they're more likely to die in pregnancy and childbirth, right?

00:32:43.000 And I feel like that's just a small peek into how a greater society treats a lot of black people.

00:32:47.000 They ignore what we're saying, and they choose to think about us in a different way than what actually is reality.

00:32:53.000 So can I respond to that?

00:32:55.000 There are a couple of things, and this is where hopefully these conversations can take place.

00:32:59.000 There's another reason that black women are more likely to die during childbirth, and that's because of obesity. 1.00

00:33:05.000 And when we're talking about behavioral disorders, I'm not. 0.97

00:33:07.000 I'm talking about murder.

00:33:09.000 I'm talking about violent crime.

00:33:13.000 13%.

00:33:13.000 So again, is there a certain point where it's not someone else's fault?

00:33:17.000 I think everything's connected.

00:33:19.000 You can't really take one thing away from I'm saying if we take that out, though, the statistic is huge.

00:33:23.000 But I'm saying you can't take it out.

00:33:25.000 And this is why I said not just behavioral disorders.

00:33:27.000 It's one of many that I listed, right?

00:33:28.000 There's no getting away from the 13% committing 52% of the violent crimes in this country. 0.99

00:33:33.000 13% of the population. 0.99

00:33:34.000 And it's largely black men, by the way.

00:33:36.000 So it's really about under 6%.

00:33:38.000 So why is that?

00:33:39.000 Why is that?

00:33:40.000 And how do you offer solutions? 0.85

00:33:42.000 Why are the mass murderers usually white men? 0.63

00:33:43.000 You're talking about statistics.

00:33:44.000 13% of the population.

00:33:45.000 52% of the crimes. 0.95

00:33:47.000 Which doesn't help young black boys. 0.93

00:33:48.000 You're not listening, and this is not a productive conversation. 0.94

00:33:52.000 So therefore, the conversation ends.

00:33:52.000 I agree.

00:33:54.000 You're not to use my data for anything.

00:33:56.000 I'm not going to use your data.

00:33:57.000 We do not approve of being on camera or doing anything.

00:34:00.000 It's a single-party consent state, and you already did.

00:34:03.000 But I'm not sure how productive the conversation is anyway, so it may not be useful.

00:34:06.000 I agree with that.

00:34:07.000 I agree with that.

00:34:07.000 At all.

00:34:08.000 But it may be something that we use.

00:34:11.000 I'm asking you not to use anything.

00:34:12.000 Okay, I will take it into consideration.

00:34:16.000 I'll take it into consideration.

00:34:18.000 Okay, so... We don't want you to use anything with our face, our name, on it whatsoever, on anything having to do with you or your company.

00:34:25.000 It doesn't matter, though.

00:34:26.000 It doesn't matter, though.

00:34:27.000 Yeah, so anything for your YouTube video, we do not consent to it.

00:34:30.000 Now, are we going to disagree on this?

00:34:31.000 We're single-party consent laws?

00:34:33.000 Are you familiar with them?

00:34:34.000 Or is that just... It's the law.

00:34:36.000 Now, if we want to have a conversation about, okay, fine, where you don't want to, but you did consent to this interview, it started off as friendly as all the others today, and now the law says, but that doesn't matter, the law says it doesn't matter.

00:34:49.000 Unfortunately, we do not consent.

00:34:50.000 Great.

00:34:51.000 Also, what does it say about you as a company to renege on our consent?

00:34:53.000 You know what I mean?

00:34:54.000 I feel like, as a company, that's not great.

00:34:56.000 She was right, and I hate that.

00:34:57.000 It's called journalism.

00:34:59.000 I hate that she was right.

00:35:00.000 It's called journalism.

00:35:01.000 And your whole demeanor and everything about you shifted.

00:35:06.000 And I was so open for a beautiful conversation and everything about you shifted.

00:35:12.000 I think it shifted with the idea of microaggressions and white fragility because that's racist.

00:35:17.000 And that's my opinion.

00:35:18.000 And you don't agree with it, that's fine. 0.97

00:35:19.000 And you'll say it's privilege, and you'll say that obesity is because of white people, and you'll say that the murder is because of white mass murderers, but you haven't listened. 0.98

00:35:26.000 Absolutely. 0.97

00:35:27.000 Everything I've said is white privilege. 0.56

00:35:28.000 Everything is white privilege.

00:35:29.000 That must be it.

00:35:30.000 Just think about it as like a company.

00:35:32.000 This is not great for, like, if somebody straight up said, we didn't give you consent, that's not great for a company.

00:35:37.000 Why do you think you're the only ones where that's the case?

00:35:39.000 I also have a question.

00:35:40.000 If your goal is to show this love and this great community, this is just not productive.

00:35:46.000 Right.

00:35:46.000 No, I agree.

00:35:48.000 I don't think that this is good ambassadorship for them.

00:35:50.000 No.

00:35:51.000 At all.

00:35:52.000 So why are you fighting us and saying you don't want this to be shown?

00:35:55.000 So why are you fighting us on why you want this to not be shown, right?

00:35:59.000 I feel like if your goal is to show bonding and community, and we're telling you not to, that goes against your company ideals.

00:36:06.000 Well, first off, you don't know the company or our ideals.

00:36:06.000 No.

00:36:08.000 But you literally just said it's about bonding community, so why would you show us, one, not wanting to?

00:36:13.000 That's not nice.

00:36:14.000 And she's a minor.

00:36:15.000 I am a minor.

00:36:16.000 But also, like, it's just not a nice thing to do, you know?

00:36:19.000 I feel like, from, like, a disaccompanied perspective, you want, like, bonding community.

00:36:22.000 This is not what this is doing.

00:36:23.000 No, I agree with you.

00:36:24.000 But I would ask the question of yourselves, just like you asked me to check privilege, I would ask of yourselves Why is this the only one where that's the case?

00:36:33.000 Why are we out here for hours?

00:36:35.000 Well, that's the thing.

00:36:36.000 There's the value in that when you talk about the company.

00:36:38.000 Seeing the contrast that some people don't have.

00:36:40.000 You talked about the Bible.

00:36:41.000 Ears to hear. 0.98

00:36:43.000 You said that to me, but I have never said it's because you're black. 0.97

00:36:46.000 You can go back through this and rewind it. 0.58

00:36:47.000 I've never once made a generalization that because you are black, you can't X or Y. You've both done it at least eight times. 1.00

00:36:53.000 I said you're more likely to, or you're more predisposed to.

00:36:55.000 And that's why I would say this one wasn't productive.

00:36:57.000 She has.

00:36:58.000 I personally have not.

00:36:59.000 In this entire thing, I've seen you're more predisposed to do certain behaviors, like most people are, because of society.

00:37:03.000 But I've never said, because you're white, you're going to be doing this thing. 0.94

00:37:06.000 I have not once said that.

00:37:07.000 And I don't think because someone's white, they're going to do one thing. 0.91

00:37:10.000 I think it's based on how they all think.

00:37:12.000 I think it's everything we do as humans, it's based on how we think, you know?

00:37:15.000 Can we find some common ground on this?

00:37:17.000 If I'm going to take what you're just saying, and I believe that it's 100% genuine, can you listen to what I'm about to say, and just take it into consideration?

00:37:25.000 So if you just said that you've never once, and you're rolling your eyes.

00:37:27.000 One thing that I'm allowed to say, because everything I say, you say, well, no, that's, no, believe what I'm, I'm taking you as genuine at your word.

00:37:35.000 Take me.

00:37:35.000 It's never going to be helpful for you to start the conversation with racial generalization like white fragility.

00:37:42.000 So even if you make that, in other words, remove that from your vocabulary.

00:37:46.000 And maybe argue the argument.

00:37:47.000 I think it's a concept.

00:37:48.000 I think the word is like a buzzword, but the concept itself is valid. 0.99

00:37:51.000 You know, that people take in what society gives them and then they have this way of thinking.

00:37:55.000 I think that's a valid concept.

00:37:57.000 I think it's the idea that you are a byproduct of your environment.

00:38:01.000 Sure, as a concept.

00:38:01.000 Society conditions people to have those thoughts.

00:38:04.000 I wouldn't say society, though.

00:38:06.000 TV, media, let's go with that then.

00:38:08.000 That's a big part of it, yes.

00:38:09.000 And that's what we started off with, right?

00:38:10.000 So, as we go with TV and media, if they're conditioned to think that, then...

00:38:14.000 So let me ask you this, because I think this is where we're making headway.

00:38:17.000 What you have expressed today, would that be more in line with everything that you see in television and media than what I am communicating?

00:38:24.000 The idea of white fragility, white privilege, that it needs to be checked, that we're systemically racist?

00:38:27.000 That's what you'll see on CNN and ABC and NBC and CBS, right?

00:38:30.000 That would be the condition.

00:38:32.000 I think it's a lot more subtle than that.

00:38:33.000 I think it's small things.

00:38:35.000 I think you can say the big word out loud and say white fragility is this XYZ and you can educate people, but it doesn't undo just only being exposed to certain people, right? 0.96

00:38:45.000 So a lot of people, a lot of white people especially, live in white spaces.

00:38:48.000 They're not really exposed to a lot of people of color, so that's how their brain thinks.

00:38:51.000 It's not necessarily, like, it's not great, right?

00:38:54.000 But it's not their fault, and I understand that.

00:38:56.000 Just because something is not their fault doesn't mean it's not bad.

00:38:58.000 Somebody could be, like, born with psychopathy, right?

00:39:03.000 That's a trait you're born with most of the time, sometimes slightly raised, right?

00:39:07.000 Sometimes nature nurtures, yeah, that's fair.

00:39:09.000 Right?

00:39:09.000 But that doesn't mean it's a good thing, right?

00:39:12.000 So something can be placed on you, it's not necessarily a good thing.

00:39:15.000 It's not necessarily your fault either, right?

00:39:16.000 Right.

00:39:17.000 But it's something we should all work towards.

00:39:18.000 Yes, but it's something we should all work towards.

00:39:18.000 Like narcissism.

00:39:21.000 To get better from, right?

00:39:23.000 Like, if I was born with something horrible, I would have to work towards it and become a better person through that.

00:39:28.000 Same thing with something that was placed on me.

00:39:30.000 I have to work towards that and become a better person.

00:39:31.000 That's with literally everything.

00:39:33.000 So with media, in subtle ways, because it does happen subtly, I mean, look at, like, disrepresentation.

00:39:38.000 Look at how, like, on media and Disney Channel, especially Disney Channel, how black people and Asian people often are portrayed.

00:39:45.000 Little kids absorb that, you know?

00:39:47.000 And I feel like they have to do the work now to get that out of their minds.

00:39:51.000 So I think that's a fair state, and I think getting that out of your minds, people don't want to change, and that's where the right fragility comes from.

00:39:57.000 It's not really because they're fragile, it's because they don't want to change the way they think, and they don't want to go against the grain, because they don't want to admit to themselves that they've been socialized in this way.

00:40:07.000 And it's not their fault, but they think it's their fault, because it's the way they think. 0.85

00:40:09.000 Yeah, I think that that is the most unproductive way of thinking of these issues that you can imagine, because there's no way to absorb new information There's no way to use a critical thinking lens, because no matter what I say, you will say, maybe it's not white people's fault, but it's because they're white. 0.99

00:40:25.000 And if you're going to educate people... I don't think it's because they're white. 0.80

00:40:28.000 I think this happens with Asian people as well, you know? 0.97

00:40:31.000 I think, yeah, for example, affirmative action right there, being screwed by... 0.77

00:40:35.000 I wasn't talking about that.

00:40:37.000 I was talking about... Can you let me continue my sentence?

00:40:40.000 I was talking... I wasn't finished with my answer.

00:40:42.000 I was already talking before you did your answer.

00:40:45.000 But what I was saying with Asian people, I was talking about sometimes Asian people have this idea of black folks because they're only... the black folks that are only shown a lot of the times are these bad stereotypes, especially overseas, right?

00:40:58.000 And I feel like it's still bad, but it's not their fault.

00:41:00.000 So they have to work through that, right? 0.86

00:41:02.000 What if it's because they've been the victim of black violent crime at a disproportionate rate? 0.88

00:41:05.000 I'm talking about overseas right now.

00:41:06.000 They probably haven't statistically.

00:41:08.000 In the United States, it's unbelievable.

00:41:10.000 I'm talking about overseas right now.

00:41:12.000 So, can I ask you a question?

00:41:13.000 So, overseas, like in Asia?

00:41:14.000 Overseas, yeah.

00:41:16.000 Like in Asia, in Japan, in Korea, where there's a monolith of races, right? 0.99

00:41:20.000 Can I ask you a question?

00:41:21.000 So, the undertones... The undertones that I'm feeling from you right now are... When is it... When does black... 1.00

00:41:32.000 People of color take responsibility. 1.00

00:41:34.000 Why are black women overweight? 1.00

00:41:35.000 Why are men locked up in prison?

00:41:37.000 These are the things that you're amplifying, right, in our conversation because you're saying all of these things.

00:41:43.000 No.

00:41:44.000 That's not what I'm saying.

00:41:45.000 Okay, then that's how I accept.

00:41:47.000 That's how you feel.

00:41:48.000 And at a certain point, I'm not saying I don't care about you.

00:41:52.000 I don't care how you feel about those statistics that we were discussing.

00:41:55.000 I wasn't the one who brought up infant mortality rates and maternity death rates.

00:42:01.000 I think that education is a great tool against discrimination.

00:42:04.000 It's a great tool against prejudice.

00:42:06.000 And I think recognizing those statistics and saying, okay, why do we, now I'm not saying that it's I don't disagree with you.

00:42:10.000 But there's so much more than that.

00:42:11.000 That's what I'm getting at.

00:42:12.000 But there are some other issues that if you go, wait, maybe the mortality rate for birthing

00:42:15.000 mothers is lower because of health complications, comorbidities.

00:42:20.000 So that's a good, that's a clarification.

00:42:21.000 I don't disagree.

00:42:22.000 But there's so much more than that.

00:42:23.000 I understand, I understand.

00:42:24.000 But what I'm saying is when you start that it's race, when I was addressing the issue

00:42:28.000 that it's solely based on race.

00:42:30.000 And I think that if you look at it through that, in other words, your daughter, I understand

00:42:33.000 it's a strange debate, said, if you look at it and rattled off reasons for, well, sorry, 0.96

00:42:37.000 I shouldn't say for, because women are black, they X, Y, Z. 1.00

00:42:41.000 I think that's not because they're black. 0.98

00:42:43.000 There are other, there are other compounding factors.

00:42:47.000 Is that fair?

00:42:47.000 What's important is, I think that that's fair, but I also think that the baseline, it's not 100% because of any color, right?

00:42:54.000 I think the baseline, because of history, all of the things that have compounded on each other leave us where we are.

00:43:02.000 No, that's the thing.

00:43:05.000 I do think that individual choice and responsibility is the biggest component to that.

00:43:10.000 Certainly bigger than race.

00:43:11.000 I do.

00:43:11.000 That's my opinion.

00:43:13.000 Let me explain.

00:43:16.000 Let me go from the heart.

00:43:17.000 He's not going to listen to that, Mom.

00:43:18.000 He's only about facts.

00:43:19.000 You know that, right?

00:43:20.000 I know that you're about facts, but I want to go from the heart.

00:43:24.000 And I want you to hear me.

00:43:27.000 We are.

00:43:28.000 I know you think it's not going to work, but if he chooses to air this without our consent, hopefully he airs this part because I want you to understand.

00:43:37.000 I'm listening.

00:43:38.000 Us being where we are and my kids in great schools and going off to college and successful children and a two-parent household and all of that.

00:43:48.000 When we go into the inner city and we do work.

00:43:50.000 We volunteer.

00:43:51.000 And we volunteer and I'm listening to the other kids.

00:43:57.000 One boy told me, I didn't know, and this is education, I didn't know that college was an option.

00:44:04.000 I didn't know that smoking weed is not what people don't, that's what we do every day because that's what he sees.

00:44:12.000 That mom, that was her parent, mother and father before.

00:44:16.000 That parent was that mother and father before.

00:44:18.000 So because they're in this level of the same thing, In a school that's a Title I school that's not giving them the education that the other schools are giving them, this becomes a cycle that they don't even know how to get out of.

00:44:36.000 I didn't come from that.

00:44:37.000 My grandfather is a biologist.

00:44:40.000 I'm third, fourth generation college.

00:44:43.000 I didn't come from that.

00:44:44.000 So seeing that and understanding that, even as an affluent black woman, seeing that our inner city kids don't know how to get out, don't have the education to get out, and that is so powerful.

00:45:00.000 And that's the main issue.

00:45:01.000 And it's heartbreaking.

00:45:02.000 It's heartbreaking.

00:45:02.000 That's the issue.

00:45:04.000 It's education.

00:45:06.000 They're not getting it.

00:45:07.000 It's exposure.

00:45:08.000 It's not education because they go to school every day, right?

00:45:11.000 And they're not being exposed outside of that.

00:45:14.000 Education isn't working.

00:45:15.000 No, it's not.

00:45:16.000 It's not working.

00:45:17.000 Because their education is not the education that she's getting.

00:45:20.000 So it's exposure.

00:45:21.000 Someone going into the inner cities and saying, your life can be different, let me show you.

00:45:26.000 Let me send you away to a camp that says you're on a college campus for the summer and this is what this could potentially look like.

00:45:33.000 Your life does not have to be this.

00:45:36.000 It's us really diving in and going in and exposing our kids to different.

00:45:42.000 And I think two things.

00:45:44.000 I agree with you, and that's why we're out here.

00:45:46.000 It's incredibly heartbreaking.

00:45:47.000 And I understand what you're discussing.

00:45:48.000 You know, coming from, my father was raised in Detroit, the bad area of Detroit, right?

00:45:52.000 He was there when they did the first cross-district busing integration system, and it didn't go well.

00:45:58.000 They had the Detroit riots, right?

00:46:00.000 People had it worse.

00:46:01.000 Friends, dads, who were black, who were cops, had to go home in unmarked cars. 0.98

00:46:05.000 They were being shot by other black men who were snipers on rooftops. 0.98

00:46:07.000 It was a horrible war zone. 0.96

00:46:09.000 He lived through it.

00:46:10.000 And I understand the statistical reality and how unbelievably hopeless it is for a lot of people, by the way.

00:46:15.000 And certainly black kids in inner cities, okay? 0.84

00:46:17.000 I agree with all of those things.

00:46:19.000 Now, I would just make two points, and allow you to just, for a moment, consider that this isn't coming from white privilege, but that it's a space in which I work, and maybe I am well-read enough to propose a solution that I think we could all at least take a step toward.

00:46:33.000 Okay.

00:46:34.000 One is, I think, school is not gonna—we both agree, school isn't fixing it.

00:46:37.000 Nope.

00:46:37.000 Okay.

00:46:38.000 Now, we have to agree that it's not because of money, because these schools get the same amount of money, if you look at it.

00:46:42.000 They don't.

00:46:42.000 They do.

00:46:43.000 Per-pupil spending is—okay, let's— We're talking about public schools.

00:46:45.000 Let's assume that I'm not lying about that.

00:46:46.000 But let me, can I just finish, please?

00:46:47.000 Let me finish one trail of thought here.

00:46:51.000 Let's assume that I'm not lying about that.

00:46:53.000 Okay, let's assume that per-pupil spending is comparable.

00:46:56.000 Okay, I think the most important thing is going to be the kind of household

00:46:59.000 that you have created with a husband who you love.

00:47:01.000 I think that's far more important than school.

00:47:03.000 And here's, how about this?

00:47:05.000 How about the idea?

00:47:06.000 This is one solution that I've always wondered why everyone can't get on board with.

00:47:11.000 You know, school choice.

00:47:12.000 And by that I mean a voucher.

00:47:14.000 I don't mean defunding public education.

00:47:16.000 I mean rather than forcing a child to go to that school because that's his district, I agree with that.

00:47:21.000 Okay, I've never... I agree with that 100%.

00:47:23.000 I agree with that.

00:47:24.000 that. Okay, I've never I agree with that 100%. I agree with that. Okay. It's like if they

00:47:29.000 don't have a comment. Do you know why it's been shut down in the government? No. Because

00:47:33.000 it's racist. The government's kind of, I don't, the government has like a whole conversation.

00:47:37.000 We have been told that that is racist for what you just said.

00:47:40.000 Maybe some black kids don't have parents with cars. 0.85

00:47:43.000 But the point is, at least some choice is better than no choice.

00:47:47.000 And I come from Canada.

00:47:48.000 I agree with that.

00:47:49.000 That's a policy that almost anybody could agree.

00:47:52.000 I think the government itself has a lot of issues.

00:47:55.000 I think anybody in America who has a brain can see that the government has issues.

00:47:58.000 And it's not serving the people, but it's serving the people who love it.

00:48:01.000 School vouchers.

00:48:01.000 There's common ground.

00:48:02.000 Yeah, I agree with that.

00:48:04.000 That's a good thing to have in a court.

00:48:06.000 Yeah, I agree with that 100%.

00:48:07.000 The pushback I face on that is, that's racist.

00:48:10.000 Yeah, that's not.

00:48:12.000 Well, that's the pushback on a national level from the Democratic National Committee.

00:48:16.000 That's very interesting.

00:48:17.000 And that's because also, there's money tied behind schools.

00:48:22.000 There's funding.

00:48:23.000 So all that goes back down to the system of racism.

00:48:30.000 A system that doesn't work.

00:48:31.000 The system that doesn't work.

00:48:33.000 My only disagreement there would be, in other words, I don't think that schools in South Dallas with black teachers, with black principals, I don't think that they're racist.

00:48:39.000 I think that there's no accountability in the public school system.

00:48:42.000 I agree with that.

00:48:43.000 I don't think it's racist.

00:48:44.000 I agree with that.

00:48:46.000 I'm just gonna say, I think that the reason they're saying that it's racist, because it's obviously not, right?

00:48:53.000 I think it's because they probably have some other, like, financial reasoning behind it that's prohibiting you, and I think that's the biggest issue in America, or not the biggest, I think one of the biggest issues in America today is that our People up high are not doing what they need to do to help the people down below.

00:49:07.000 You know what I mean?

00:49:07.000 I would certainly agree that we have a problem with government not representing their constituency and not acting in the best interest of the people.

00:49:14.000 Completely.

00:49:14.000 And I certainly would say that is true of the public education system.

00:49:17.000 And I think it's failed all children, particularly, yeah, children in the black community. 1.00

00:49:21.000 It has not served them well.

00:49:22.000 It's not just children in the black community.

00:49:24.000 It's people of color.

00:49:24.000 It's children everywhere too.

00:49:25.000 It's Hispanic. 0.93

00:49:26.000 It's black. 0.53

00:49:26.000 It's Asian. 0.53

00:49:27.000 It's everywhere.

00:49:28.000 If it's a little white kid that is at a Title I school, he's still getting that same education. 0.61

00:49:33.000 I agree.

00:49:33.000 It's a class issue.

00:49:34.000 It's across the board.

00:49:35.000 It's the educational system problem.

00:49:36.000 That's across the board, yes.

00:49:38.000 That I agree.

00:49:39.000 Right, but the idea behind school choices.

00:49:41.000 So they would say school vouchers, and this is why I say this, because I think it's one of those things where I've never heard an argument against it that was valid, is sure, maybe, and I get this, and we go back to the idea of a family, right?

00:49:50.000 Let's say it's a black boy who doesn't have a father who will drive him to another school, right? 0.98

00:49:54.000 He's going to be more disadvantaged than someone who does have two parents, right?

00:49:58.000 He is distinctly more disadvantaged right now by being a byproduct of what you said, and I agree with, his immediate environment.

00:50:05.000 In other words, right now, where black children are disproportionately negatively affected is they have no choice, and so the school is a byproduct of the environment, and it's not worked.

00:50:15.000 And so having the option to go anywhere else, and I say this because I'm from Canada, that's where I was raised.

00:50:20.000 Where I went to public school.

00:50:22.000 I was not raised in a wealthy household.

00:50:24.000 I was raised in a three-bedroom apartment with four people, about 900 square feet.

00:50:27.000 But I did get a much better education.

00:50:29.000 The reason, I didn't know until I moved to the States, as long as I was willing to get on a bus, I could go to a choice of five different schools.

00:50:36.000 And I came to the States, and I said, wait a second, you have to go to that school just because it's your zip code?

00:50:42.000 People said, yeah, it's archaic, it's asinine, and if there's no other common ground, I think that's something that hopefully everyone can at least move toward.

00:50:50.000 I think that's why, like, private school gives you such a bigger advantage, is because you get to choose where you want to go.

00:50:56.000 And teachers get fired if they're bad.

00:50:58.000 They do.

00:50:59.000 Some do, some don't.

00:51:00.000 Some do, but more than public schools.

00:51:01.000 That's true.

00:51:02.000 It depends on the private school, though, because there are some private schools who will not fire teachers who are, like, horrible people.

00:51:08.000 Because it's all... It's money.

00:51:09.000 If the teacher has a parent who's, like, really rich that endorses them, they don't get out.

00:51:15.000 Right.

00:51:15.000 Anywhere we go, I think the school system, and we've kind of shifted gears here in this conversation, but no matter what, the school system is just...

00:51:26.000 I think that black and white and brown and Asian people should all be on this is one area we could all be on the same page as far as reform for public education.

00:51:32.000 I agree.

00:51:32.000 This should be a bipartisan issue.

00:51:34.000 Okay.

00:51:35.000 I wanted to leave it on a pause because I genuinely do want to hear and listen to you guys and I understand a lot of your points disagree with some but I'm glad that we found something that we can genuinely agree on because that has a real immaterial quantifiable effect on people's lives.

00:51:53.000 I was born here, so I'm right.

00:51:55.000 Yeah, I was not.

00:51:56.000 Well, we get 40 below, so no one fares too well in that either, but yeah, this is wrong.

00:52:02.000 Eddie and... Carrington.

00:52:05.000 Carrington.

00:52:06.000 This is our feature.

00:52:07.000 It's pretty good.

00:52:09.000 That's all I can say.

00:52:09.000 I think there's potential.

00:52:11.000 Oh, it's pretty good.

00:52:12.000 It's better than potential.

00:52:13.000 She's off to an amazing college and is going to do amazing things.

00:52:17.000 Well, I'm glad that you built a wonderful family and you're supportive of your kids.

00:52:20.000 I think that's very important.

00:52:21.000 And honestly, across the board, people don't take it into account enough, regardless of race these days.

00:52:27.000 That's a beautiful thing.

00:52:27.000 I mean that.

00:52:28.000 All right, I apologize.

00:52:30.000 I guess everyone's perfect and in no need of improvement.

00:52:33.000 This wasn't entirely fruitless.

00:52:35.000 Still, you can clearly see the difference between this conversation and all of the others that have taken place in this series, and I'd point out Largely, the difference seems to be that people who haven't had to think critically about their positions or defend them.

00:52:50.000 If anything, what was said here could be modeled after every single legacy media and white suburbanite talking point.

00:52:56.000 That being said, I respect anyone willing to take the time to speak and for that, I thank you.

00:53:00.000 If you'd like to see more of Black and White and the Gray Issues, drop a like, comment, tell me what topics you would like to see most

Louder with Crowder - October 29, 2023

HEATED: Are White People Too "Fragile?!" | Black & White On The Gray Issues

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