Phyllis Boniface is a neuropsychiatrist who specializes in treating adolescents and young adults dealing with the effects of marijuana use. In this episode, she discusses the pros and cons of legalization of marijuana in the United States, and her observations on the effects on young people growing up with pot use.
00:00:25.000So you kind of felt a little bit of the backlash of YouTube at that point.
00:00:29.000We did a video on marijuana, right, when it was legalized in Colorado and sort of examined where you are in Ann Arbor, the decriminalization and what happens legally, what are the ramifications.
00:00:51.000The problem I had is all the people who say legalize all drugs, legalize pot, in order to get that passed, they generally aren't as forthcoming about the harms of marijuana.
00:01:03.000And I think if you're an adult and you want to harm your body, fine.
00:01:05.000But the people who are wanting to legalize it aren't taking on the responsibility of assisting in education.
00:01:11.000So that's what we had you on to do, which seems benign enough, right, for you to just say, hey, here are the ways pot might be bad for you.
00:01:22.000I've spoken at some forums before and I know that there's a lot of pro-marijuana people out there and I always find it instructive to read the comments and how people actually make their arguments and People who are very pro-marijuana and obviously heavy users, their arguments kind of illustrate the points that we're trying to make, that it can cause problems and deficits in people's thinking.
00:02:38.000I think there's a greater perception that it's kind of a harmless pleasure.
00:02:42.000And a lot of the young people that I treat in my practice, they're high school students or college students, and they feel it's like having a beer or two.
00:02:49.000And they actually don't drink as much as they smoke pot now.
00:03:42.000I would say in the scientific world, they always say, you know, the plural of anecdote is not data.
00:03:48.000But we really do have data to support your observations that a lot of your friends who maybe started out with promise didn't end up with their full potential.
00:03:59.000Because we're talking about millions of young people who are using regularly, and I define regular use as just once a week.
00:04:06.000And chillingly, the Monitoring the Future study here at U of M It shows that 6.5% or more of high school students are using it daily, not just weekly.
00:04:19.000So, you know, we're looking at huge swaths of the population, not just a few friends.
00:04:27.000Now, okay, so you're talking about people who are teenagers, right, in high school.
00:04:31.000To be fair, if you're a healthy adult, let's say, with no history of psychosis or mental disorder, if a healthy adult were to smoke every now and then, let's say, in their own house, I'm not endorsing this, I don't do it, so please hold your letters, it would be relatively harmless in comparison to the developing brain, right?
00:04:53.000Well, I would say that youth, and again, we have to define youth.
00:04:57.000A lot of the studies that have been done prospectively have been 18 and under, but it's clear that the brain doesn't finish wiring itself until about 24 or 25.
00:05:06.000So, a lot of the studies now are continuing that observational study up until those age groups.
00:05:13.000So, I mean, it's speculation to say that people over the age of, you know, brain maturation have no deficits.
00:05:19.000The patients that I see, of course, they have psychiatric illnesses, they have anxiety or mood disorders, and a little bit of marijuana completely, you know, throws them into a relapse.
00:05:34.000You know, I do have friends, unfortunately, professionals, even physicians, who smoke marijuana.
00:05:40.000And all I can say is, you know, I can see subtle changes in their behavior when they're using versus when they're not, but they clearly function at a high level.
00:05:52.000We have to define also, you know, when we look at IQ problems, and we'll talk a little bit more specifically about that, you know, if you start off with an IQ of 137 and you lose seven or eight IQ points, you're still, you know, highly functional, you know, versus the bell curve of the population, you know, when they lose seven or eight IQ points, they go from average to low average, and that's enormously consequential.
00:06:17.000I guess I didn't even really think about that when you look at the bell curve.
00:06:20.000I took those online IQ tests because I wanted to become a member of Mensa only to do a hidden camera video with Mensa where I would go in and just be like, hey, what if everyone's right?
00:06:30.000What if we're all really just jackasses who are self-important?
00:06:33.000And I think I was shy by like a couple points.
00:06:37.000So maybe it'll have the reverse effect.
00:06:40.000If I just smoke a doobie, I can join Mensa.
00:06:50.000Well, let's get more into that after the break here, if you can stay with us and talk about specifically how it might affect IQ and brain development.
00:07:13.000So you were talking about how marijuana, So, Dr.
00:07:41.000Boniface, Tell us a little bit more so about IQ and brain development and specifically what can be observed scientifically, measurably, with marijuana.
00:07:56.000Some of them date back fairly far to studies done in New Zealand and in Sweden and in the UK that show a decrease in IQ of up to eight points.
00:08:07.000There was recently a study released in 2012 of 1,200 or 1,300 prospective observational studies on youth who followed users of marijuana versus non-users, and they found a decrease of about six or seven points and they found a decrease of about six or seven points of And this was across the board, even with people who did not have any kind of genetic vulnerabilities towards other mental issues.
00:08:35.000So there was a higher incidence of IQ decrease the younger the person started using.
00:08:41.000So if someone starts using at 12 or 14, the cognitive deficits are much more profound as someone who starts using later in adolescence.
00:08:51.000So again, earlier on in the neurodevelopment, the more damaging it is.
00:08:58.000Have you been paid by Big Pharma to come on this show and spew this?
00:09:02.000Well, let's just say there's a huge pot lobby.
00:09:05.000If I really wanted to make money, I could work for them.
00:09:08.000Well, you know, it's so funny that you said it because, of course, I get accused.
00:09:12.000Anytime you disagree with someone, right, it's, well, you know, I'm a little bit skeptical of climate change.
00:09:20.000And I just wrote a piece on The Blaze where a lot of people don't realize it.
00:09:24.000The biggest supplement companies, which is a huge scam, by the way, many of them are owned by the big pharmaceutical companies.
00:09:30.000So it's like, I'm going to go holistic and buy these vitamins.
00:09:32.000And it's being sold by the same person who gives you your painkillers.
00:09:37.000This is my uneducated, mildly unintelligent brain working.
00:09:45.000The idea is Big Pharma has suppressed any and all positive research on marijuana.
00:09:50.000If people go to the previous video, they can click the link right here.
00:09:53.000If they're listening terrestrially, go to ladderwithcrader.com.
00:09:56.000They say marijuana is actually – it cures cancer.
00:09:59.000It's very beneficial and it's all suppressed by Big Pharma because they can't patent it because it's a plant.
00:10:05.000So here's me looking at it saying, okay, what's more likely – All big pharmaceutical companies since the beginning of time have gotten together and said, hey, marijuana is this incredible wonder drug.
00:10:40.000Well, that's basic economics, Stephen, and I'm sure you understand.
00:10:44.000If there's a useful molecule in there, they're going to find it.
00:10:47.000They would love to patent one of the molecules in Kapot, but the problem is marijuana is not a drug.
00:10:54.000I mean, people who make this argument can't even give me a definition of what is a drug.
00:10:58.000You know, a drug is something that's given to a person that produces a measurable effect in a measurable way.
00:11:05.000In this day and age, drugs are actually engineered.
00:11:09.000They're a single molecule, very elaborately constructed, that binds to specific receptors in the body, whether it's something for your hypertension or it's something for your depression, whatever.
00:11:43.000You know, there are different compounds in THC and CBD, which is, you know, there's one of them that can induce psychosis more, it gives the high, and the other one has more of a calming effect.
00:11:54.000So, I mean, we're not talking about a drug.
00:11:56.000We're talking about, you know, instead of a targeted shot, you know, at the brain, it's actually like buckshot.
00:12:26.000And the thing that really bothers me, and this has got to frustrate you as a libertarian, right?
00:12:30.000I have never once seen, and I am more of a libertarian, too.
00:12:32.000I mean, I think I'm more libertarian on the idea of the drug war than you are, but I don't work in it.
00:12:38.000The idea that these people who go out who want to legalize drugs and they completely absolve themselves of the response – they say, well, it's bad for you, but you know what?
00:12:46.000People should be able to put what they want in their body.
00:12:48.000But if you're the one who's pushing for it to be legalized and in order for it to be legalized, you have to present some logical fallacies like it's recognized medicine or it's relatively harmless.
00:13:01.000I've never once seen a pro-legalization publication, libertarian publication – Also publish a piece saying, hey, here are the harms that come with marijuana.
00:13:13.000Don't you think it's their personal responsibility to do that if they're going to be telling people to light up?
00:13:22.000I think libertarianism is based on self-reliance and taking responsibility for one's actions.
00:13:28.000And I don't see anything more irresponsible than leashing something into society that will actually cause damage and impair people's ability to be responsible for themselves.
00:13:38.000You know, we have a vast social net in this country, and I can tell you from experience, I've seen many people in the last 28 years who are smoking marijuana.
00:13:48.000Their parents are on disability because they have drug abuse.
00:13:53.000Now the children, we have three generations of people on disability living in the same home who are incapable of taking care of themselves.
00:14:00.000Now that may be the extreme, but we have to look at the fact that if people don't function well, society is going to end up having to take responsibility for them.
00:14:10.000And that's antithetical to most libertarians.
00:14:13.000Wow, I see how you tied that back there intellectually.
00:14:27.000I'm trying to tell people about something scientific.
00:14:30.000I find it interesting that most of my leftist friends, they're big on evolution.
00:14:36.000And I always present the argument, well, our brains developed evolutionarily very, very specifically to do certain tasks over thousands and thousands of years.
00:14:46.000And now we're going to basically take a monkey wrench to our evolutionary advantage in terms of our Ability to function as human beings.
00:15:10.000They say, well, actually, the human body, you know, these cannabinoid receptors, cannabinoid, I don't know how to pronounce it, receptors, they were designed for things like marijuana, and our bodies were designed to process it, and it's a natural substance that our body expects.
00:15:30.000I mean, we have these receptors or else the marijuana would have no effect.
00:15:34.000If we didn't have a receptor, you wouldn't get a high off of it.
00:15:37.000But that system is there for a reason, and I always say don't mess with Mother Nature like that, because that system is, like I said, interlinked with everything.
00:15:46.000Mood regulation, cognitive function, impulsivity, judgment, all of these things that are higher functions that are required for our behavior in the world.
00:15:57.000And we're doing something that will alter all of those systems in an unknown, uncontrolled way.
00:17:10.000You know, you're taking a biological system that's there and has a homeostasis, and you're tapping into it and altering it in what we call a non-physiologic way, which means it is causing that system to, you know, change the complete balance, put out too much of something or too little of something, and change the regulation.
00:18:00.000It's funny that we talk about this and we'll bring you on after the break because I want to get into comparing maybe marijuana versus some other drugs specifically.
00:18:08.000Actually, I guess we can get into that now and then we'll come back to sort of the social ramifications.
00:18:12.000So people would say you're a psychiatrist, right?
00:18:14.000And psychiatrists prescribe some what they would argue are much more harmful drugs, certainly drugs that can result in death more easily like Adderall Yeah.
00:18:34.000Well, first of all, the goal of psychiatric drugs is not to get a high.
00:18:41.000I mean, people don't want people to get a high.
00:18:43.000That's where you see the area of pain management is so difficult because the therapy is actually related to feeling a high and that's quite problematic.
00:18:51.000But in psychiatry, I mean, all drugs are subjected to double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, which means they have to be studied, you know, the drug versus no drug.
00:19:01.000They have to be And they also have to define reduction or lack of harm.
00:19:10.000There are a lot of bars you have to jump over before the FDA will approve any drug.
00:19:15.000And now it takes about a billion dollars of research and development to develop a new drug to bring to market.
00:19:20.000So it's not an easy feat and it requires sometimes dozens of years of development to find something that's effective and safe.
00:19:29.000So, you know, it's a very advanced science.
00:19:32.000And, you know, in my practice, I do prescribe drugs, but I always start with, you know, do what's in the best interest of the patient, which means do no harm.
00:19:40.000We try to get people to manage stress in their life, you know, get rid of drugs and alcohol, exercise, take care of themselves.
00:19:47.000I mean, that's always the starting point.
00:19:51.000It sounds far too reasonable for the land of the internet right now, but we'll bring you back after the break and talk a little bit more about pot.
00:20:28.000But let's also talk about – while we're discussing exceptions to the rule, this idea right now that marijuana is non-addictive And it's certainly less addictive than something like alcohol, which is legal.
00:21:38.000Well, we know there are genetic predispositions to addiction.
00:21:43.000We think it has something to do with the dopamine system and the genetics that are inherited from your parents.
00:21:49.000So many people have a genetic vulnerability, but for example, there's also a genetic vulnerability to mental illness with use of marijuana.
00:21:58.000And again, we've been working out the genetics of that, but the issue is that a large swath of the population, 25 or 30 percent, are highly vulnerable.
00:22:08.000And they actually know there's a specific gene, the C-O-M-T gene it's called.
00:22:14.000It has to do with dopamine regulation in the brain.
00:22:17.00025 to 30 percent of the population has the variation that makes them intensely vulnerable to addiction or mental illness.
00:22:23.000Now is that a risk we're willing to run as a population in terms of public health?
00:22:29.000Well, let me ask you this, because you say 30%, and then your numbers were about 25% to 30% of people have a vulnerability toward addiction.
00:22:35.000Do we have any numbers as far as what the percentages of people who drink alcohol, who either become addicted or go on to harder drugs?
00:25:00.000That's the buzz phrase people throw around online, and sometimes it's correct, sometimes it's not.
00:25:05.000So not everyone who smokes marijuana, obviously, is going to go on a crime spree.
00:25:11.000Is there any kind of data there that would suggest some kind of a correlation maybe with someone who – I mean how could marijuana trigger someone to bite someone's face off?
00:25:23.000Well, I don't know the details of that case, but let's just put it in the context of what we know about the effect of cannabis on psychosis, for example.
00:25:31.000We can argue that all of these people who commit these horrible crimes, they're psychotic.
00:25:35.000I mean they're not in touch with reality.
00:25:37.000There are many studies that have taken place over the last 30 years that show an increased incidence of psychotic illnesses in people who start using marijuana early in life.
00:25:48.000You know, it increases the incidence of psychosis by about two to three times over a lifetime.
00:25:56.000It also reduces the amount of time to the first psychotic episode in someone who has schizophrenia, and that's not a small thing.
00:27:34.000The drug war has been relatively inefficient.
00:27:36.000But they say, you know, look at Portugal.
00:27:37.000They saved all this money in the drug war.
00:27:39.000But what I think a lot of people and a lot of libertarians, which you are, again, by the way, don't point to is that Portugal has an immense public rehabilitation program.
00:27:56.000So when people make the argument economically, right, that everything you've just said is true, but it's still not the government's role to go in and tell someone that they can't do that to their body.
00:28:07.000Where do you line up on that as a libertarian, but also a doctor?
00:28:10.000And again, I think it comes back to personal responsibility.
00:29:53.000So in neuropsych testing, and also it's visible on functional MRI. So we can actually see a picture of the parts of the brain that are involved in the cognitive function that are compromised.
00:30:24.000Why do so few people believe what you're saying?
00:30:27.000I mean, if you could actually send me these studies, we'll get them up at ladderworthcrowder.com, so I'll hyperlink them.
00:30:33.000But why is it that so many people are pushing back and saying that that's just untrue, that there is no evidence, I guess that there is no data right now, that you could draw those conclusions, that that happens, that it's all propaganda?
00:30:46.000Why is there such a pushback, and why do most people believe that right now?
00:31:10.000I mean, we have to have some kind of definitions in society.
00:31:15.000The other issue here that I find very interesting, and I've seen this in my patients over the few decades I've been in practice, marijuana damages the prefrontal cortex.
00:31:26.000That's the self-observing part of the brain.
00:31:28.000That's where we have insight and judgment and we can see ourselves and how we function in our behavior.
00:31:36.000People who can't see themselves aren't aware of their deficits, if you know what I'm saying.
00:31:42.000You know, I work a lot with brain injury patients as well, auto accidents.
00:31:45.000And when you survey the families, 95% of the families who define that that person has serious problems with their memory and their functioning and they can't cope, 0% of the patients saw it.
00:31:58.000So the inside part of the brain is compromised.
00:32:01.000They can't see it in themselves, which is horribly frightening.
00:32:05.000That is probably the most fascinating thing I've ever heard on this show.
00:32:30.000If you've ever seen someone with a brain injury with damage to that part of the brain, and there are some famous studies, you know, neurology studies that prove this.
00:32:38.000You change your frontal lobe, you change who you are.
00:32:41.000So we're actually seeing damage in that part of the brain.
00:32:44.000Again, it's evident on neuropsych testing.
00:32:46.000It's evident on fMRI, which is functional MRI. It's evident on, you know, brain sections actually post-mortem.
00:32:53.000So, you know, I don't know what more evidence we can use to show that THC is neurotoxic.
00:33:00.000And it's neurotoxic in doses that are comparable to using once a week.
00:33:14.000But not to be, again, immature, but I have to be because I'm terribly uncomfortable with serious subjects.
00:33:18.000That really is fascinating to me, and I didn't really know that about the frontal lobe.
00:33:22.000I will have to go and do my own research because I know that I don't know a lot about the frontal lobe, and what you're saying sounds reasonable.
00:33:28.000But I'm sure someone who was a pro-pot person could tell me something that sounded reasonable with the frontal lobe because I wouldn't be able to call them on it.
00:33:35.000So again, we'll get these links up at louderwithcrowder.com and you can make your own informed decision.
00:34:49.000Well, we actually included them in our last video, and I can get them up at light.
00:34:53.000I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but one thing, again, anecdotally, we actually interviewed someone who we didn't include on camera, but who basically sold pot, right?
00:35:03.000And he said, yeah, and then once it was decriminalized, I said, well, you'd be out of a job.
00:35:36.000I noticed when it became medically available in Michigan, there was a whole generation of kids who were starting high school right at that year who had increased impairments.
00:35:49.000And a degree of mental illness that you wouldn't expect, given their family history, etc.
00:35:54.000And a lot of these kids just fell off the grid.
00:35:56.000I mean, they dropped out of high school.
00:35:58.000And I don't know what the stats are from the high school, but I'm sure in the educational establishment, they may track this to see dropout rates and maybe not going on to college, that sort of thing.
00:36:12.000Unfortunately, you know, it's gonna be too late for a lot of people.
00:36:15.000It might be your kids, it might be your siblings, you know.
00:36:18.000And, you know, I mean, if you look back even at tobacco, you know, we look back now about how big tobacco pushed it and, you know, it was not, you know, all of the dangers were hidden because there was so much money behind it.
00:36:29.000And now we look back and think how evil that force was.
00:36:32.000Well, look what they unleashed into society, this horribly addictive substance.
00:36:36.000And it was, you know, a lot of things were not being brought to the foreground that were probably well known at the time.