Timothy J. Gordon is a prominent Catholic apologist and a proud Protestant. He is also the author of Rules For Retrograde, which is a book about how to deal with feminism in America. In this episode, he explains why he thinks women should stop being whores, prioritize motherhood, and listen to their husbands.
00:02:10.000Maybe you don't want to listen to your husbands.
00:02:12.000Maybe you don't want to stop being whores.
00:02:14.000Most people watching this, I don't think you fall into that category.
00:02:17.000But if you think about those things, get past the shock of the word whores, even though it's a biblical word, you start to think, well, these are pretty reasonable.
00:02:57.000So we're not going to agree on everything.
00:02:59.000And I'm sure things will get a little bit spicy here and there.
00:03:02.000But listen, it is worth it to have real conversations about the battles that we are fighting in this culture and in society, whether you're Christian, not Christian, curious, not curious in Christianity at all.
00:03:14.000It matters when you are fighting against feminism and the society or societal impacts that it is having on this country.
00:03:22.000So please welcome my guest to Gerald Apologizes Apologetics, Timothy J. Gordon.
00:04:06.000It's hard to come at me correctly on this shirt because you don't know if I'm like, man, Jews are like the best basketball players ever and I'm just like stealing the Michael Jordan dunks, the menorah, or they're the worst and it takes someone jumping on everything that they've got to put the menorah on the fireplace.
00:04:22.000You don't really know which way I'm going in support of or in mockery of, and so everybody gets equally angry.
00:04:57.000Twitter, I'm Timothyology with 2Es, T-I-M-O-T-H-E-E-O-L-O-G-Y.
00:05:02.000And then on, well, on Facebook, on YouTube, actually.
00:05:06.000So Timothy Gordon, and my show is called Rules for Retrogrades.
00:05:09.000There I also have an Instagram, but the first two are most relevant for the kinds of things we're going to be talking about today and free content, exciting free content that's coming out soon.
00:06:41.000My training is all in Thomistic philosophy, Aristotle and St. Thomas.
00:06:46.000So I'm more on, in terms of the Catholic tradition, the tradition of the perennial philosophy and Catholic Catholicism.
00:06:54.000I'm on the side of philosophy more than theology, but there's a big Venn diagram share in the middle there between Thomistic philosophy and theology.
00:07:04.000And I've picked up a lot of theology along the way.
00:07:07.000So whereas back when I was trying to be an academic, I tended to debate philosophers.
00:07:13.000What I've done in the popular square for the last seven years is debating other Catholic theologians like Trent Horn.
00:07:23.000We had a big debate seven years ago on feminism.
00:07:45.000And as a matter of fact, after that one, Trent was Catholic Answers on Trent's behalf was asking me there, like, do you want to bury this one?
00:09:20.000I feel like it's really important and it's missing in so many circles, especially I'll be very self-critical here on the Protestant side.
00:09:26.000You've got a lot of people out there espousing different views and beliefs and not really backing it up very well and completely running away from tradition in ways that I think is very, very unproductive.
00:09:36.000He's very skillful, rhetorically skillful.
00:09:39.000And yeah, I'd love to do a solo scripture or something debate with Ortland at some point.
00:09:45.000But I mean, yeah, so I'm not just an apologist.
00:09:48.000I'm also a very certain kind of Christian nationalist.
00:09:51.000And my first book was actually called Catholic Republic.
00:09:55.000And I'm a state's rights Christian nationalist, which is the least of a LARP and the most represented, the most robustly exampled in our early Americana.
00:10:07.000And of course, what you want to talk primarily about today is the patriarchy.
00:10:55.000I've seen clips of it, but I haven't seen the whole thing yet.
00:10:58.000But it's called basically what a woman is.
00:11:02.000And it seeks to answer essentially that question, right?
00:11:06.000So kind of playing off of Matt Walsh's what is a woman, trying to find out like, okay, what exactly is a woman?
00:11:11.000And seeing how comically bent over backwards people get to try to not say the actual definition of a woman, you came along and said, okay, well, now that we've gotten that out of the way, we actually need to define what a woman is.
00:12:20.000But all we got, the only three-second clip of that film that tended to answering the question, since it was an interrogative title, after all, what is a woman, was Matt and his wife standing in the kitchen, and she said, a woman is an adult human-female.
00:13:11.000It ultimately goes a little bit hard for what we want to do.
00:13:17.000But it's very close to being because it's not inflammatory, which is what everybody expected from me.
00:13:23.000They're like, it's very close to being what we would want to do as a sequel to this, which actually answers the interrogative in the title.
00:13:34.000And I guess it's a runway for the discussion we're going to have is when you consider what gender dysphoria really is, it's ontological gender dysphoria.
00:13:46.000It's a claim or a suite of claims about what the two sexes are.
00:13:51.000And it's really irrelevant because no one really knows many people, if any, that suffer from this.
00:14:01.000Ontologically hating your own gender or thinking that you can actually be the opposite of what you're born.
00:14:07.000But there is a kind of gender dysphoria, what I call functional gender dysphoria or behavioral gender dysphoria.
00:14:15.000Everybody else calls it feminism, where you act like the other sex.
00:14:20.000And I don't mean in some LARPy way where we look at some, you know, Black's Law Dictionary and try to reclaim the way we never were.
00:14:31.000I mean literally just the way everyone knows in their heart that men are supposed to be and we're wired and women are supposed to be because they were wired that way.
00:14:39.000And the way the Bible reflects it, the way the natural law advocates did, the way Homer and Hesiod talked about it, the way Christians did 100 years ago, 150 years ago.
00:14:52.000And functional gender dysphoria, it turns out, afflicts about 99 out of 100 households where their dad's acting like their mom and their mom's acting like their dad because of this, because of feminism.
00:16:19.000And because they know they really belong there and haven't been, and they're coming home to not a home, but an empty house, they're making their husbands miserable.
00:16:28.000And everyone's sharing the female duty or duties.
00:16:32.000And it turns out that all you have to do is follow the scriptural prescriptions for what a man is, what a woman is.
00:16:38.000Or you could, by the way, you could just follow natural prescriptions, things we already know.
00:16:44.000Even Aristotle or Virgil, or I don't know, Homer or Hesiod get this much correct.
00:16:50.000But on this matter, on this score, scripture is really affirmative.
00:17:31.000And the fact that 99 or so out of 100 households aren't tending to it means I thought we should make a movie on it.
00:17:38.000Because when you actually answer what a woman is, turns out it's the most dangerous cultural and political question you can set out to answer.
00:17:48.000In the conversations that I've seen you have about this, I would tend to agree.
00:17:52.000And look, I understand a lot of people in our audience right now are probably in an uncomfortable position because of where we are today.
00:18:00.000And I would say that I found myself in that uncomfortable position of really not having given a ton of thought to this in a broad way, right?
00:18:08.000I've understood what feminism is and how it has been something that the left has really used as a tool and a weapon in this fight.
00:18:17.000But I, until recently, didn't really grab a hold of how much feminism had invaded and kind of infected in a way the Protestant church.
00:18:27.000And I'm sure it's not limited to that, but in my experience, some of the churches that I had gone to, and I was just really shocked by that and shocked by some of the experiences that I had at other churches that didn't have that.
00:18:37.000And I was like, wow, there was a very stark contrast, a very different approach to things.
00:18:42.000And so I think it's a very important conversation to have.
00:18:45.000Now, one thing that, and I keep mentioning Joel Webbin, I recently watched that interview with you and Joel.
00:19:19.000And is absolutely separate from the Bible.
00:19:21.000So when you approached solving this, and Joel held the same belief, you know, right?
00:19:26.000You guys both agreed that that is, you know, like we don't want to take Andrew Tate's advice on how to fix this problem necessarily.
00:19:33.000Identifying the problem, I think he's probably gotten a lot of that part correct, maybe not all, but a lot of it.
00:19:39.000When you set out to kind of diagnose this and to define what a woman is, Where did you draw from the most, right?
00:19:50.000So I know, you know, the patristic fathers, scripture, like all those things are going to influence, but was that your basis for going, hey, here's what a woman is, guys?
00:20:50.000And I don't care whether you're talking Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox is smaller, but Catholic and Protestant are really, really, really pervaded by feminism.
00:21:00.000In the 1970s, I think 1976, twice as many women identified as a feminist, but they were far less afflicted by it.
00:21:10.000And there are ways there are metrics you can show this.
00:21:13.000Suffice to say, qualitatively right now, half or less, half or fewer of the women that 50 years ago identified as feminist identify as feminist, but it's more been normalized.
00:21:27.000The over-to-tin window in the 80s and 90s, and then again in the early aughts, really aggressively normalized and shifted that O window left.
00:21:38.000So what used to be considered feminist isn't anymore.
00:21:43.000So the reason that the red pill did do some good, because my book, The Case for Patriarchy, and here it is right here, I brought you a copy.
00:22:31.000Even if you're right to say, hey, there's a problem in this group.
00:22:34.000And it's not, again, it's not all women, but we have a problem generally.
00:22:38.000Like you'd get met with some pretty sharp criticism very quickly, not just from women, but from other men.
00:22:44.000From other men, from white knights, because the first rule of feminism, the way they guarded their color revolution was to inoculate against any, any, any criticism.
00:22:55.000So the first rule of feminism is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, for any reason at any time, say anything negative about a woman.
00:23:02.000If women, I don't know, are murdering their babies to the tune of however many million abortions happen every five years, blame it on the nearest man.
00:23:13.000Even though legally, it's pretty much a guarantee men aren't allowed to decide.
00:23:17.000Even a married man can't stop his wife from getting an abortion.
00:25:26.000They're saying to be vile man sluts and to bastard.
00:25:34.000Actually, they're saying MGTOW is what it's called.
00:25:37.000They're saying the same thing feminists are, but for men, it's a gay cruiser lifestyle.
00:25:40.000For men, it's all population control advocacy, both feminism and red pill, because they're all saying the solution to the other side, like Spider-Man pointing at each other.
00:25:50.000One side's got a, you know, external pee-pee, the other side doesn't.
00:25:54.000All they're saying is don't have lots of kids, don't have any kids.
00:26:00.000And if you have any kids, don't have them within the context of a Christian family.
00:26:04.000Red pill and feminism, when you look at it, is some combination of Judeo-Muslim.
00:26:10.000Basically, if you look at all the operators, that's who it is.
00:26:22.000In diagnosing that we, in fact, do have a problem.
00:26:26.000Like, I think Red Pill kind of pushed the envelope.
00:26:28.000And, you know, I think you see similar situations like this for us.
00:26:32.000We obviously on this show were demonetized and we were pushing the envelope and being called every kind of, I don't know, abusive name under the sun saying that we are racist or sexist or homophobic or all these things.
00:26:45.000And so at certain points, you just go, well, I'm just going to lean into it a little bit and do it as kind of a way to be edgy or joking, you know, and just be like, you can't tell me what to say.
00:26:54.000And it seems like a bit of that is what Red Pill's doing.
00:26:57.000It's like, well, this is, we're just going to lean completely into it.
00:26:59.000And whether or not they believe it or not, or if they're just doing it for clicks or doing it because they just want to sleep with a bunch of chicks and have some kind of a backing for it in their mind, they are at least exposing a real problem.
00:27:14.000So that's good, but they take tragic turns with it, unfortunately.
00:27:19.000So tell me, I mean, without giving it too much away, kind of finish your thought on what a woman is and how that's different from what the red pill patriarch guys are pushing.
00:27:33.000Because I throw patriarch on there because they would be in that category to a degree, but probably not by the same definition that you are.
00:27:40.000Make no mistake, patriarchy means power to fathers.
00:27:43.000So, because it means power to fathers, you have to advocate for siring children within a Christian family, and they don't.
00:27:52.000So, I wouldn't say they count or qualify, but the question still stands: what are we saying a woman is that they don't?
00:28:01.000Well, for one thing, patriarchy is a synonym for Christianity.
00:28:06.000You know, Catholic and Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox say Christianity is a bimodal patriarchy.
00:28:12.000There's a clerical patriarchy, all men, it's comprised of the episcopate.
00:28:19.000And there's a lower familial patriarchy, which are fathers leading their household.
00:28:25.000Pope John Paul II called it the ecclesiola, the home, the church in miniature, and men are the priest, prophet, kings of the home.
00:28:32.000Pope John Paul II actually called himself the feminist pope, so he was of sort of two minds on this, but he said a lot of good stuff.
00:28:39.000Don't worry, it wasn't ex-cathedra, so I guess we're fine.
00:28:55.000Except if you go to a Tridentine Latin church.
00:28:58.000But here's the thing among Protestants, yeah, they acknowledge Christianity is the patriarchy too.
00:29:05.000So when feminists say F the patriarchy, I'm not sure if we could say it here, but when they say the patriarchy, they are saying F Christianity.
00:29:33.000Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who was kind of the leader, said you need a new Bible if you're going to do Christian feminism because the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, is completely unapologetically patriarchy.
00:30:30.000And saying this is not something I'm saying, I'm announcing triumphalistically or I'm not making it making jokes because you could eschew that.
00:30:39.000I'm saying literally it's a different answer to the question than the Jewish or Muslim red pill would give.
00:30:46.000You know, they give this view of like, ha ha ha, women are like dogs or children, treat them that way.
00:31:55.000She reigns as queen, second in charge in the home, but nowhere else.
00:32:00.000So Pope Pius XI was really clear on this.
00:32:06.000If a woman leaves the home to go to, I don't know, do a show like we're doing, a couple of men talking to each other in the public square the way we should be, she's no longer queen.
00:32:17.000She is now subject to all kinds of, you know, sexual belittlement and physical assault.
00:32:24.000And even if she's not belittled or assaulted in a way she knows, she's being gawked at.
00:32:32.000Her king loves her, but is in charge of her.
00:32:35.000And she does everything he says, and it works really beautifully.
00:32:40.000Whereas when women are invited out of the home, the way they were really robustly encouraged to leave the home, starting in 1848, that's the red letter date of first wave feminism.
00:32:53.000They were basically all Luciferians, theosophists, all of the women at this first feminist convention, the Seneca Falls Convention of 1848.
00:33:03.000They prove, if you look at the notes, they knew what they were doing.
00:33:06.000This was the uncoupling, the diswiring of Christendom as we know it.
00:33:11.000If you do, you just start the battle of the sexes when you start with functional gender dysphoria, telling women they need to be men functionally.
00:33:20.000You need to go out into the public square where women never had a place.
00:33:50.000So how, you know, and I want to make sure that I present some questions that I think the audience might have or somebody who's just kind of walking through this at an early stage, looking at what feminism is and does and looking at what the Bible prescribes.
00:34:04.000I think it's very important not to strawman a detractor's argument, but to try to find like the legitimate real question that people can go, okay, that seems like a genuine answer to it.
00:34:14.000So if somebody is a detractor and says, well, yeah, but aren't you limiting the agency of a woman by doing that?
00:34:20.000Or doesn't this become a little bit overbearing?
00:34:22.000Or isn't feminism really something that is an outgrowing of maybe oppression in the home?
00:34:28.000And yeah, maybe women should have been in that role, but men abdicated their responsibilities to effectively be kind of like Christ is to man, like that to their women and not really laying down their lives and loving them and having kind of a sacrificial love for them.
00:34:42.000Like, how do you answer kind of that critique and that challenge to this from somebody who is well-meaning, not somebody who's just trying to start an argument?
00:36:36.000I think this puts a lot of the tonal concerns, the equipoisal concerns that people might have to rest.
00:36:46.000If you are a Christian, if you're a Christian, not if you're Jewish, not if you're Muslim, not if you worship Vishnu, by the many arms of Vishnu, I'm talking only to Christians.
00:37:01.000We all agree that every word of scripture is inerrant.
00:38:40.000And Jay Dyer agrees with me on that much because they're just making it look silly, like, oh, get back in the kitchen.
00:38:46.000Well, I mean, women are happiest in the kitchen.
00:38:49.000You know, in our documentary, we talked to women that were in law school, med school, business school, Ivy League.
00:38:55.000And they're like, all I was doing on my laptop in law school, business school, med school was fantasizing about how to cook, how to bake extra cool stuff and how to be home with my kid.
00:39:06.000So it's not like get back in the kitchen where you kick them, you know, by force.
00:39:36.000And both of them agreed, whether force or shame, if you left women to doing what they really want to do without shaming them or forcing them, they will stay in the home.
00:39:45.000They'll be into baking, cooking, cleaning, sewing, needlework, all the product, beautifying the home, tending to kids, all the stuff that in law school, when I went there, I would always see all the girls, their laptops from the back of the classroom where I always sat.
00:40:02.000They're always just looking into girly stuff.
00:40:04.000But they've been shamed or, you know, if they're like Muslim students or something, forced by their parents into law school by the patriarch of their home, they've been forced to law or med school.
00:40:18.000And so really, the tone follows the truth on this one really easily.
00:40:23.000Once everyone gets their head around the idea that every bit of this from the cradle to the grave has been an op and that girls who want to follow their inclinations and just go home, play with their baby, not be stressed out.
00:42:40.000But yeah, women who have to work a part-time job or it's better to work a better part-time job.
00:42:46.000Everyone understands that until you get married.
00:42:48.000But we're talking about not just when you have kids, which was the limited hangout sort of half conservative thing that even Laura Schlesinger was talking about in the 90s.
00:44:04.000I don't, I don't like having to self-censor.
00:44:05.000So, men who are steeped in pornographic habits, um, the really bad ones, the ones that are, who are really badly trapped by it, would say, no, I don't, I don't want to, you know, I'm happy where I'm at.
00:44:21.000And it turns out happiness is a broadly equivocal term.
00:44:26.000It can mean from the base animal conception of it, it would just be pleasure.
00:44:32.000And pornography does confer some pleasures.
00:44:37.000But when we talk about the highest Christian estimation of it, it's Aristotelian eudaimonia.
00:44:42.000This means a moral, true happiness that's aimed at the good.
00:44:47.000And so along the spectrum of men who are not at all ready at the bottom to get rid of their pornographic habits, to men who are considering it because they know it's toxic, to men who are one, they're ready to get rid of it.
00:45:10.000So it's the same thing with women with the pornographic habit of, or I should say the dysphoric habit of acting like dudes.
00:45:17.000And they've been groomed, usually in most cases by their fathers to act like a dude since they're, do you want to be a lawyer, a doctor, an astronaut, or a football player, little girl?
00:45:26.000You know, this is how we're grooming them.
00:45:47.000You don't have to convince a man that a pornography, a Christian man, that pornography is bad and that ending a pornographic addiction would probably be in line with scripture and be also a good thing potentially, even though they may resist it and not want to.
00:46:01.000At a base level, scripture's pretty clear on how we should approach sex as a man, right?
00:46:09.000I think scripture's far clearer on intersexuality.
00:46:12.000Maybe so, but I don't think for this specific topic that most men would have to be convinced that watching sexual acts of other women and men together would be a sin, right?
00:46:23.000And go, okay, we don't really have to have that conversation.
00:46:25.000It's mostly like, okay, how do you defeat this?
00:46:28.000How do you actually get to a point where you get on, you know, like you said, you kind of get entangled by it or entrapped by it, but how do you unwind that is really most of the conversation that you have.
00:46:40.000And I'm sure there's a segment of people that would say, no, it's actually not bad, blah, blah, blah.
00:46:45.000There may be reasons for that, but it doesn't seem like there's much argument there for the practice of patriarchy, not the idea.
00:46:52.000And I want to separate those two because the idea of patriarchy, yes, I'll listen to my husband.
00:46:56.000He is a spiritual head of the household, kind of satisfies a part of that for a lot of women, I would think, not really taking it down to the level of the famous red dress questionnaire.
00:47:06.000You know, if you do you have the right to ask your wife to wear a red dress, right?
00:47:09.000If you have enough red dresses, exactly, right?
00:47:12.000Do you have enough red dresses theoretically?
00:47:21.000And for me, the answer that you kind of just gave me is like, well, you have to convince them of the virtuousness of the acts, not just the first act of, well, he's a spiritual head of the household, but all of the subsequent stuff that I think maybe is the gray area for a lot of women.
00:47:36.000Like, do you see some women grab a hold of it in part, but not in full?
00:47:40.000What I've seen, and we're also marriage coaches for Catholic women, my wife and I.
00:47:47.000So what we see when we get in there and we start getting our hands dirty talking to the man and the woman involved in a Catholic relationship is a lot of propaganda and a lot of flat out nescience and ignorance by teaching, which we call propaganda, by churchmen and Catholics.
00:48:09.000And there's a lot of this in the Protestant world as well, on what scripture requires.
00:48:14.000So that's why I'm not trying to beat a drum, but all I'm saying is you could go to scripture and it says eight different times.
00:48:22.000Wives must obey their husbands in all things.
00:48:39.000Men are taught that porn is bad by other men and by the church typically sex is reserved for marriage, right?
00:48:44.000I've had a lot of Christian men tell me, look, I don't think it's bad.
00:48:49.000I've had this conversation with a lot of Protestants, actually, because they don't have the benefit of the magisterial kind of gloss on scripture.
00:49:25.000It's less perverse to a Protestant, but it's completely perverse to a Catholic or an Orthodox that the main expositors of the teaching here comes from a Catholic.
00:50:20.000I'm a little surprised to hear that it is that pervasive within the Catholic Church.
00:50:26.000As a Protestant, I know that one of the benefits and insane drawbacks of Protestantism is, well, at least from my perspective, I doubt that you would agree with me, is the lack of central authority.
00:50:40.000And I think it's good in some ways because it protects against kind of the sin of man.
00:50:45.000Anytime man is involved in something, it has a tendency, like the Jews prior to Christ coming back, to become completely different than what God had originally intended, right?
00:50:55.000Men trying to do what was right in their own eyes, essentially.
00:50:58.000But one of the horrible things about it is it doesn't have that kind of central driving force of people to say, no, this is how we've always done it.
00:51:14.000In Catholicism, you should just be able to be like, hey, guys, what are we doing here?
00:51:18.000Like this entire system is set up and being passed down from the early church fathers to us after these councils to kind of get together and say, what does this really mean to live as a Christian now?
00:51:30.000Not just taking these words, but applying them to our lives.
00:51:33.000I'm surprised they can't just point back and go, get in line.
00:51:36.000Well, it does work well, but we church improves in God's time, not our time.
00:51:44.000So after, and this is a whole other topic, but after the Second Vatican Council from 1962 to 1965, with all of the trappings of those hippie-ish years in the world, that was the 21st Ecumenical Catholic Council.
00:52:01.000And it, upon that council, followed something called the spirit of Vatican II, which was liberalizing.
00:52:09.000The documents aren't really so bad, but they were written in a way that has been referred to as weaponized ambiguity to pave the way for feminism.
00:52:19.000There were zero doctors of the Catholic Church before Vatican II.
00:52:23.000In 2000 years, now there are four doctors of the Catholic Church who are female.
00:52:48.000Bishop Robert Barron calls them the pelvic issues, which have been made leniency by the so-called spirit of Vatican II.
00:52:56.000All kinds of liberalizing and modernizing after Vatican II.
00:53:01.000And only now, really during Francis' tenure as Pope number 266, I was a major critic of Francis, as you could probably guess.
00:53:11.000Only during, he like accelerated it all and people woke up to it.
00:53:16.000And a lot of Zoomers now, the only Catholic, more Catholic than Protestant American generation ever, they're going back to the true teachings that were always on the books, but were not really being properly enforced.
00:53:32.000So what you're saying you'd like to see happen, vis-Ã -vis feminism, is happening.
00:53:37.000And that's, I guess, what I'm a part of.
00:53:39.000Is it at the infancy stage, essentially?
00:54:09.000And shortly after that, his friend, Trent Horne, said, I want to bring Tim on to debate him about some of the things he said on Matt's channel the previous month.
00:54:20.000I think this was August 2019, then September 2019.
00:54:24.000And we did this double debate on Trent Horne's show in Catholic Answer Studio.
00:54:28.000One was on feminism, creamed him there.
00:54:32.000The other one was on the death penalty.
00:54:35.000But in 2019, this is how much the O window has shifted to the right, which never before happened in my lifetime or your lifetime.
00:54:43.000In the last six or seven years, you couldn't even say the things that I was saying were motivating me to write the books, much less cite the things I'm citing in the book and prove the case.
00:54:53.000But I published it two years later, and there wasn't a huge reception, bad or good for it, until after the red pill sort of busted all this stuff loose in the popular culture.
00:56:06.000I'm not going to hold anything against you for that.
00:56:09.000But really quickly, let's take just a second right now to watch just a quick trailer of this and get an idea for just how well done this is.
00:56:19.000It's been answered simply, a woman is not a man.
00:56:22.000But in our age, it's never been answered with any specificity.
00:56:28.000The main thing that people need to grasp is the patriarchy is reality.
00:56:34.000Feminism is one of the key elements they had to do first to bring about all the other revolutions.
00:56:40.000So whether it's the 60s counterculture revolution or whether it's the biological trans revolution, all of that had to be preceded by the feminist revolution first.
00:56:49.000But in the first place, the mutual agreement to swap sex roles was not called gender dysphoria.
00:57:33.000In marriage, the reason you can't have mutual submission is because there will be times in which decisions have to be made in which the wife and the husband do not necessarily agree.
00:57:42.000This is why ultimately, in the end, the husband has to be the head of the household and make the final decision.
00:57:49.000Scripture does not give us a safe place from the directives of God.
00:57:55.000If I didn't want to submit to him, then I should not have married him in the first place because I should not marry somebody who I don't trust to lead me.
01:00:26.000I'm talking like, where can they like, you know, without sending you money and treating you like, you know, worker of the night, where can they go?
01:01:25.000So let's jump back into the conversation we were having about the Catholic priests because one of the heart, let me just set it up this way, because I think this really encapsulates, like I am trying to get at the heart of this, right?
01:01:41.000The motivation for me matters a lot, right?
01:01:44.000Where this comes from, why this is happening, what it's fighting against, what it's pushing back on and against.
01:01:50.000But understanding that if you want people to change, if you want society to change in a positive direction, and I think a lot of men and women out there would agree that the way things are going right now, it's broken.
01:02:03.000The relationships between husband and wife, very broken, especially in the home where you have children and that relationship is not modeled correctly.
01:02:11.000It just continues to perpetuate this problem down through the generations.
01:02:16.000We're taking this beautiful gift of having children and taking it and throwing it to the side so that we can go and have mom pursue a career in the workforce and make probably 50%, 40%, 30% of take-home of what dad is making after you pay for all the childcare that's involved with that transaction change.
01:02:34.000Plus the fact that mom might probably earn a little bit less than dad.
01:02:38.000So for not very much gain, we're taking and sacrificing the greatest gift that God ever outside of his son gave us, right?
01:02:46.000These kids, these human beings that we're entrusted with to raise and to train up correctly.
01:02:53.000And we're outsourcing that to whoever happens to be at the daycare center that day or happens to be at the elementary school.
01:03:00.000And I think a lot of people can grab a hold of that as a problem, but they may not understand the solution to it.
01:03:05.000And so I really want to get down to, okay, well, how do we get people to say, you know what, I'm uncomfortable and this idea is different, man.
01:03:12.000It feels weird for me as a man to tell these things to a woman, for a woman to change everything that she has been conditioned and told in an instant.
01:03:22.000So I really want to get down to how we do that.
01:03:24.000And really what we've zeroed in on is, well, it's the virtuous nature of the Acts and telling people like, hey, it's virtuous here, here.
01:03:32.000And really the biblical nature of the Acts is probably a better way of saying this.
01:04:20.000end of that in in the nicomachean ethics aristotle distinguishes that pleasure is still useful even in the good life in the virtuous life as a test as a test for whether or not someone has rightly habituated virtue whether he's because once you start like a run after new year's if you're out of shape you hate it right yeah And this is also the answer to the first question you asked me about.
01:04:44.000What about the woman that, or the guy that's still addicted to a bad lifestyle, the woman that's still addicted to a bad lifestyle?
01:04:49.000When you try the virtuous thing on day one, on January 1st, you go for your run, you get off the couch, you hate it.
01:05:04.000So this is the way that virtue is gradually accumulated and it changes the soul.
01:05:11.000So your intellect is what realizes before your will, I'm doing something bad, bad for me, whether it's pornography or just being fat and staying on the couch, or I'm a woman who has been conditioned by all of society, including my father, to act like a man.
01:05:28.000And it's making me miserable the way all vices ultimately make us miserable, even if they carry with them their incipient pleasures.
01:05:36.000Well, your intellect tells you go for that first run.
01:05:40.000Your intellect tells you stop with the pornography.
01:05:42.000Your intellect tells you stop with the potato chips.
01:06:55.000Add in another year of school, get kids away from their mothers earlier.
01:06:59.000Our film we have um Aaron Russo talking to Nick Rockefeller or discussing something Nick Rockefeller told him he's like.
01:07:07.000My family of the Rockefellers were in on women's lib for two reasons, get kids away from their mothers more and have someone else they can tax twice as much.
01:07:17.000That's why we did where Women's LIB and Aaron Russo was like.
01:07:20.000At the time I was a Normie, I didn't know, but the, the general principle that the communists and the you know, you know the people who run society.
01:07:30.000Come on, the Jews don't all run society.
01:07:35.000The communists and the freemasons um, I got to push back on you a little bit for fun right people, for fun, it makes it fun.
01:07:43.000The people who, who decide to to you know, brown society and to to feminize men and to masculinize women and to um, do a what to destroy the patriarchy, destroy Christianity, to destroy Christendom.
01:07:58.000They knew what to do and what to do fundamentally and I say this with seven little girls that I love more than anybody with a wife.
01:08:07.000I love more than anybody say for for, for Jesus alone is to to get them out of the home and and to for one thing, it also makes the home place very, very unattractive.
01:08:21.000When you go to a home where no one's home during the day, it's just a house.
01:08:26.000There's no nice smells the only smells are going to be probably dirty laundry and it's cold.
01:08:31.000And if everyone is arriving home at the end of the day together, this is just a house, whereas if you arrive, your wife greets you, there's baked goods on.
01:08:43.000We homeschool, so it's been very warm, there's been a lot of activity during the day, everyone's sort of bored and readying for you, for dad, to get home and to have fun.
01:08:54.000When I taught young men in high school and college for all those years my wife would come visit me with baked goods or just come with my lunch or something from home, if I forgot it, and she's so pleasant.
01:09:07.000You know, Nick Fuentes recently has talked about what women used to just be pleasant.
01:09:11.000They'd bake cookies and smile, and now they have rbf and they don't bake anymore and they don't know how to bake and they don't know how to do any of the home eck.
01:09:20.000Female arts needlework stitchcraft painting, pianoforte these are the things women should be at home doing and they're all about beautifying and pleasantifying the home place.
01:09:32.000That makes people actually want to spend time around it.
01:09:35.000Yeah, and what I noticed with a bunch of the dudes around the suburbs is it's go and it generates more philosophy of go, get away from the home because it's not this pleasant place.
01:09:47.000I go around my home because the way my wife makes it, I just want to stay there.
01:09:51.000We all the kids just want to stay there.
01:09:53.000We, we just live our lives around the home.
01:09:55.000It's a real oikonomia yeah, and I think emphasizing this speaks to what the internal yearning of of women really is.
01:10:05.000Like I told you that the laptop screens are all filled by home place uh products, home place services, home place crafts and hobbies that these girls that have been forced to act like pre-lawyer men or pre-doctor men, they all naturally want to do this.
01:10:21.000And men want to be around those kinds of women too.
01:10:24.000So it also reattracts men and women to each other when women can give this much needed commodity back to society and men are looking for it desperately, desperately they're looking for it.
01:10:35.000Well, and I definitely see that in the dating scene right now.
01:10:40.000Not that I'm in the dating scene, but some of the statistics that we have for some of the generations that are struggling through this right now are pretty stark.
01:10:47.000Men not really even wanting to get married or pursuing marriage or pursuing a relationship with a woman and just essentially escaping into some virtual world, whether it be video games or just online social media fixes.
01:11:05.000And I think finding a solution to this and approaching it the right way, I think people can smell authenticity a mile away.
01:11:14.000And a number of men, and I've said this before and I've taken a little bit of heat for it, but I don't think it's something that's really controversial at all.
01:11:23.000In fact, I think it's more like Christ approached this problem or any problem, really, not this problem.
01:11:29.000When talking to people, it's that some people come off as like the patriarchy needs to come back.
01:11:36.000And they're exactly what you would think that the women who are complaining about the patriarchy would point to, not these virtuous men who love their wives and take care of their families the way that the Bible instructs them to, but these very difficult, hard, ruling it over them kind of men.
01:11:54.000And I think that's, I think with the early stages of this message getting out like as a return to pre-feminism, really, that's what it is.
01:12:11.000Are you seeing a receptiveness to this no matter who's putting this out there?
01:12:16.000Or are you seeing kind of what I'm saying?
01:12:18.000And who's, you know, obviously you're one of the people doing this.
01:12:21.000Is there another person doing this, doing it well?
01:12:24.000Because listen, if it's not coming from a heart of love for women and for men and for families, then you're not going to get a lot of success, I don't think.
01:12:31.000If it's just like beating people over the head with the truth, you might get some success, but I don't think you're going to experience as much as you want.
01:12:38.000The closest fellow travelers that my wife and I have in this are actually Andrew and Rachel Wilson.
01:12:44.000Andrew does the blood sports debates, but he's, he's a really sweet guy behind the scenes.
01:12:51.000And Rachel's very sweet, and you can even see that online.
01:12:55.000And she and my wife's staff have always had each other's backs.
01:12:58.000They each have a book against feminism, addressing it, attacking it from a different angle.
01:13:03.000I wish there were more fellow travelers within Catholicism that are really aggressively pro-patriarchy and anti-feminist, but that's a burgeoning number.
01:14:20.000I was also a logic teacher in philosophy departments, logic instructor.
01:14:24.000You define something by its operative self.
01:14:29.000So whether we're talking about the good regimes of government, according to Aristotle and the later Republican theorists, there's three good regimes, right?
01:14:44.000When we talk about rule by one in the home, people always associate it with its perverted form, rule by one in a wicked or a tyrannical way.
01:15:17.000It just sucks except for all of the forms, I guess.
01:15:19.000But so when you talk to a feminist or even a non-politically charged, just sort of normie who has his head full of gynocratic feminist mush, they'll always say, well, if we return to Christendom, if we return to patriarchy, won't women get beat?
01:16:40.000I mean, systemically speaking, when women are home, doing what they're naturally, they have a natural aptitude for, what they all want to do, and being cared for by their husband, being safe.
01:16:56.00099 times out of 100, this works out very nicely.
01:16:59.000Whereas only one time out of 100 at the most does the current regime of women just being sort of booted by their fathers and their husbands out into economic society, into the economic mainstream, does that ever work happily?
01:17:49.000And they all want to do the things around home, beautifying it.
01:17:52.000By the way, in the ancient days when men farmed and farming was the main preoccupation, The primary profession that man, particularly in the American South, supported his family.
01:18:10.000Women were literally, this is such a recurring issue in the papal encyclicals in the Catholic Church.
01:18:16.000Women can work from inside the home or in the curtilage, which means they can help their husbands farm.
01:18:25.000And we know that it's natural because it was such a mainstream occupation for men and women to do together around the home, and even the kids.
01:18:33.000But it's natural because they're around their family, their employers, someone who cares for them, who loves them, who's going to let them take an extra 15 minutes after lunch if they need a nap or whatever.
01:18:45.000G.K. Chesterton put it best: you can either have a boss who loves you, your husband, or you can have a boss who doesn't love you at all.
01:18:53.000And feminism says that the latter is better.
01:18:57.000And Christianity says the former is better.
01:19:02.000We've got a really big uphill fight, I think, on this one because these ideas are so entrenched.
01:19:09.000Fortunately for me, my wife, and I didn't, like I said, I didn't really have my head screwed on very well on this topic, probably because a lot of these ideas just kind of like I thought, okay, well, yeah, this is kind of natural, but I didn't really look at the battle of the fight against feminism.
01:19:27.000It was just like, well, this is kind of what scripture says.
01:19:57.000And by the grace of God, you know, we came together and had the right ideas about, hey, I want to be home.
01:20:04.000And she's a career woman that could go earn a lot of money and find a lot of purpose.
01:20:09.000But man, the more that she has been home with our children, we have three young boys right now, almost two, almost four, and five and a half.
01:20:28.000Like, man, this is just so much more purposeful.
01:20:31.000But I think there are so many women who didn't have the matriarchal figure that mom or grandmother that was passing down those home economics, like you said, like these things that women would do, how to attract a man, how to please a man, how to make a home for your husband.
01:20:51.000That seems to have gone completely by the wayside.
01:20:54.000And if you find somebody like that, like I have in my wife, it seems to be pretty rare.
01:20:58.000I feel like we just have such an uphill battle.
01:21:04.000How do we make sure that we tell that we present this message in as winsome a way as possible without watering down the truth?
01:21:13.000And I don't think you'll have some pretty good answers.
01:21:18.000I don't think a lot of people do, though, right now.
01:21:21.000I think there are very few people that will have good answers to this.
01:21:23.000I think you're underestimating nature and female natural aptitudes and natural desires are strong.
01:21:50.000We present just beautiful, smart, Ivy League, talented women who are in business, law, medicine, Veterinary medicine who are like, I just was, I knew this wasn't right.
01:22:05.000Everyone in my family was telling me I needed a career and I knew it was wrong.
01:22:18.000I've been in this fight for six years, but I don't think it's as much an uphill battle because what you have at the end of the day is nature.
01:22:26.000And the feminists, like all gender dysphorists, are fighting against nature.
01:22:31.000People know a dude in a woman's dress ain't beautiful.
01:22:35.000People know, I don't know, a 400-pound chick ain't beautiful.
01:22:40.000People, women themselves know, and this is the strongest lie, the most pervasive one.
01:22:46.000It's not natural for them to be away from the home place during the day.
01:25:01.000If you're any kind of Christian, there is no feminism that can coexist alongside it.
01:25:08.000It is a disjunctive syllogism, as we say in logic.
01:25:11.000So the early feminists were far more honest about this, and we have to get back to that.
01:25:18.000I just think far too many people don't know that.
01:25:20.000I think it's an educational kind of gap, too.
01:25:23.000And it's a huge cultural shift to get people out there.
01:25:27.000And, you know, I think it's important.
01:25:31.000I think it's important to really understand why you believe what you believe.
01:25:39.000And, you know, you would obviously have a lot of backing for why you think women would be better in the home doing kind of these more traditional things.
01:25:48.000And I think there's, you know, there was a trad wife movement that seemed to be full of a lot of people that don't actually want the trad life.
01:26:13.000Like he did give you the truth, but there was like a call to repentance associated with that, not usually a condemnation, unless it was some of the more dramatic scenes with the Pharisees.
01:26:24.000There was a little bit different fighter coming out to play.
01:26:27.000But I do think it's really important for you.
01:26:29.000And look, this has been helpful for me.
01:26:32.000It's very important to know why you believe what you believe.
01:26:34.000One of the things that I did in searching out the best apologists in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and also as a Protestant, was to say, like, am I wrong?
01:26:45.000And I think asking that question was very helpful just to coming to a better understanding of what I currently believe because I've tested that truth.
01:26:55.000That's why I said I look for debaters.
01:26:56.000I don't look for debaters because I think debaters are the best to listen to.
01:27:00.000I think it's because their ideas are constantly being attacked by very skilled people with other ideas.
01:27:07.000And hearing that interchange, I think, or that dialogue, I should say, really does help you understand what is true and what is not.
01:27:16.000Not just listening to your favorite creator say what they say.
01:27:33.000Who is the best person who says they have a different perspective on this in making the argument for an alternative or a slightly different path to be able to take?
01:28:38.000They agree with you that patriarchy, yes, but they don't define it quite the same as you.
01:28:42.000Is there somebody who's just a slightly different, like saying, listen, if you've got a man going out to work and you've got a woman staying in the home and her work is taking care of the kids, taking care of the home, the man comes home, obviously you would probably agree, comes home, gets acclimated.
01:28:58.000But listen, at that point, he needs to help out a little bit.
01:29:01.000That would be a little bit of a difference, right?
01:29:41.000It might be a hard question to answer, but I think it's instructive if, and maybe, you know what, if you can't think of anybody, think about it and get back to me because, again, I like to steel many arguments and I'd like to hear.
01:30:10.000I believe in the patriarchy in a very positive Christian version of the patriarchy, not in any kind of perverted version of it.
01:30:18.000I believe that is what is going to make the relationship that I have with my wife and the relationship we have with our children the very best that it possibly could be.
01:30:28.000And it will be better for society if that is a normative thing, that if that's how society functions.
01:30:43.000My wife's job is to take care of the house and to take care of us and try to encapsulate that into all that she does, but she never gets to go home from that.
01:30:54.000How do you that would maybe be a question you would get?
01:31:30.000So for the Puritans, which was deeply informative on American psyche on work, it came from a cobbler huddled over his shoe doing the Lord's work.
01:31:40.000That's where grace came from on a daily basis.
01:31:43.000And therefore, God loves men and women equally.
01:32:28.000Now, a man's work schedule allows him to come home and just sort of naturally give a break to his wife by take all the kids, go outside, go to the park for an hour or two, and she'll have a loan time.
01:32:43.000Also, I would say on the front end of the day, my wife gets up at 9, 9:30, and starts school then, homeschooling with the kids.
01:32:54.000So if I have to go do something at seven, there's give, maybe more at the beginning of the day and the end of the day for a woman for a man.
01:33:03.000I wouldn't call going to a nine-to-five job.
01:33:05.000I mean, I don't have a nine-to-five job anymore.
01:33:08.000But I would say that due to the ebb and flow of the man's day, if he's going to work and his wife's day is she stays at home, they're not at all comparable.
01:33:46.000There's when the home place is your workplace, not to be too Puritan about it, it doesn't really transfer to say, Can I get a 15-minute smoke break?
01:34:26.000Now, if she needs all alone time, which is kind of rare, that's why men, you know, take the kids out to the front yard and tumble with them or go to the park.
01:34:34.000But my wife doesn't really like that anyway.
01:34:40.000Well, not necessarily just looking for that, but I think that would be kind of the, well, if he gets to come home and I think, again, maybe that's the perverted view of patriarchy from both angles, really, from women saying, well, I need a break from all of this and men going, I'm just going to come home and sit down and do nothing.
01:34:56.000It's like, well, a man comes home and greeted by the family and kind of gets acclimated to being home, whether that's a 10 or 30 minute process or whatever it is, and then jumps in to be dad.
01:35:07.000So you're not just going to work, coming home and doing whatever you want.
01:35:11.000You're jumping in to be a father and a husband at that point.
01:35:14.000And so you're just essentially switching roles.
01:35:25.000I want to stick up for men's rights somewhat here.
01:35:29.000There's a great 20th century saint, actually, the founder of Opus Day, for people who know, Saint Jose Maria Escriva, that says, look, not to be too caricatured on the other side, but wives need to look beautiful, pray improper.
01:35:42.000If you didn't do makeup before your husband gets home, you know, help him to acclimate because it is a kind of hard transition.
01:35:49.000You work to home, look beautiful, have some lovely smelling thing, whether it's perfume or something in the oven, and just give him a little time when he gets home because it's not a seamless transition.
01:36:04.000Some of you just have, okay, I have to get my child rearing hat on or my husbanding hat on and give him a half hour and bring the man his slippers or whatever, whatever he needs.
01:36:18.000And then if he's a good man, he's going to take off from there and not just do the greatest gen thing, the greatest gen thing, which created the boomers who are the worst generation ever on parenting and wifing and husbanding.
01:36:35.000They were terrible because their model of the patriarchy was the greatest gen, who I guess the dads were told, maybe it's revisionist history, just came home and sat in their chair and yelled at everyone.
01:36:49.000Hey, like, get the hell out of the way.
01:37:42.000That's the kind of balanced approach that I think women want to hear.
01:37:47.000And I know why maybe some people don't include that because men seem to get beat over the head with their duties and responsibilities all the time.
01:40:05.000But we're going to look to the Talmud, the Jewish Talmud, source of so many evils, and we're going to look to Adam's apocryphal first wife.
01:40:13.000We know she wasn't really his first wife, but she's an important literary figure.
01:40:18.000Lilith, demon goddess Lilith, Adam's apocryphal first wife.
01:40:22.000She refused to have sex with Adam, had sex with demons.
01:40:27.000She's the mother of Sids, considered the mother of abortion and witchcrafted baby deaths, and she got away with it.
01:41:42.000But make sure you show them some love.
01:41:44.000And we will definitely have to have you back.
01:41:46.000I think this is definitely a fight worth having.
01:41:48.000We've got some, I think, some challenges that we have to overcome, some messaging issues that need to be addressed so that men approach this from the right perspective and so that women can see that there might be a better way to fix some of the problems that are out there.
01:42:03.000And it's the scriptural way that we can make sure that we are pushing society in a direction that will be better for both women and men and for your children.