00:01:41.000At this point, I guess it doesn't matter.
00:01:42.000We're all going to have some fun with it anyway.
00:01:45.000Um, I talk to you guys a lot about topics that touch on apologetics or topics that touch on religion and faith and where it intersects with politics or world events.
00:01:57.000And I love talking about those things because I think it's a fun conversation.
00:02:01.000I think you get to dive into subjects that maybe we don't have time to cover on the show as in depth.
00:02:06.000And it gives us an opportunity to kind of veer outside of the normal lines of stories that we talk about.
00:02:13.000I think in this case, some of them will match up with things we've mentioned on the show.
00:02:17.000For example, we're going to be talking about Islam in the West and some.
00:02:21.000Real push to try to kind of sanitize Islam and make it seem like it is more compatible with Catholicism than it is with the evangelicals in Christianity or even Judaism.
00:02:32.000This is a post from Sneeko that we'll get to here in just a minute.
00:02:35.000And why there is this push to try to, I guess, make it seem like Islam is not the threat that it is, we'll leave the judgment up to you.
00:04:33.000But this very interesting wedge that they are trying to drive between the kind of Catholic orthodox side of the church and the more Protestant, evangelical side and Judaism, and saying, you don't want to be like them, right?
00:04:47.000Kind of using the Judaism wedge there.
00:05:47.000So it's funny because it struck me, and I wanted to get your take on this and really kind of explain what was happening there, at least from your perspective, because that wasn't really something that was supposed to be a 30 minute deep dive.
00:06:01.000I think Tim was wrestling with some ideas in his head, but like what happened there kind of from your perspective?
00:06:08.000Well, I have done multiple debates there.
00:06:11.000So I kind of expected there might be a debate.
00:06:13.000And I talked to Josie ahead of time, and you know, I'd done Tim Gordon twice debating him there, and you've had Tim on, but there was a Protestant in one time that you there was.
00:06:21.000I think y'all basically both were like, Yeah, you shut up, and we're gonna nicely.
00:06:26.000Well, so yeah, what happened was just in passing conversation, the subject of company or I brought up company towns in comparison to kind of top down control structures.
00:06:37.000I don't think there's a huge difference between the way Stalin would have run Russia and the way a company town would have been run, and that really seemed to be an issue of contention.
00:06:44.000So that led to a lengthy, protracted discussion defending.
00:06:48.000Whether a company town was really free market.
00:06:50.000I see it as more of a not Austrian economics principle system, but more of a monopoly capitalist system.
00:06:56.000And that then led into a debate about the history of communism, the history of capitalism, what classical liberalism is, what laissez faire is, what utilitarianism is.
00:07:06.000And I don't think Tim was aware that the positions that he was saying were actually utilitarian.
00:07:12.000And that seemed to frustrate him when you pointed out, like, well, that's this kind of position.
00:07:16.000He's like, no, deal with the argument.
00:07:17.000You're like, well, I'm dealing with what underpins the argument.
00:07:20.000Like, I'm going to the foundation of your argument.
00:07:23.000It's not dealing with kind of these one off issues that may come up from it.
00:07:28.000And it seemed like, and I was talking to you just before we went live, it seemed like Tim has a worldview that, for the most part, or a large part, I haven't explored all of it.
00:07:38.000So I can't say I know every detail of what he believes, but it seems like it wants to be grounded in kind of Christian ethics, but he didn't want to say that.
00:07:51.000Wanted to say, like, this is actually something that we can observe in nature.
00:07:54.000And you made some arguments there about how that's kind of a problem.
00:07:59.000It's inconsistent, basically, to say, you know, well, I'm going to pick the elements of this system that I think work, and then I'm going to reject all the metaphysics or the theology behind it because those, you know, they kind of go together.
00:08:12.000And also, there's not really a basis to know what it means for something necessarily to work, right?
00:08:17.000And I don't mean to get too philosophical, but in philosophy, just because something works, well, works to do what?
00:08:23.000I mean, a nuclear bomb could work to destroy all of my enemies, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing or it's ethical or whatever.
00:08:29.000So, just having something work or it kind of begs the question as to what's the purpose and is this working for something good or for something evil?
00:08:39.000So, when you just sort of have these generic principles that you apply, that you appeal to, if there's not a basis for the principles, then it becomes very arbitrary.
00:08:48.000And that's kind of what I was trying to highlight.
00:08:49.000And I think, like you said there, like one of the things that I always do if I'm debating an atheist or somebody like that is.
00:08:54.000I go to the presuppositions and I critique what's underlying the arguments that they're making.
00:08:59.000And that usually ends up being a very devastating approach.
00:09:13.000And you have a good faith partner on the other side that's willing to take good critique.
00:09:17.000And I think there's a lot of examples that stretch on for hours and hours where, I mean, I've seen Andrew debate people and try to get them to define a term for an hour.
00:09:24.000And they refuse to define an obvious term, right?
00:09:26.000And that it's because they know where that leads.
00:09:37.000But if you do, you start to see very quickly, like, wait a minute, like these.
00:09:41.000These arguments that we're having are on all these issues that aren't really the argument that we should be having or the conversation we should be having.
00:09:46.000It should be like, where are you getting your beliefs from?
00:09:51.000Like, what is the core of your belief?
00:09:53.000What are the anchor points, the epistemology, right?
00:09:57.000Of what are you pulling from to get this belief?
00:10:00.000And if you don't know that, it can lead you into a lot of different crazy areas.
00:10:04.000Is that kind of what you find as well?
00:10:05.000You spend a lot of time trying to define terms and trying to go after kind of the basics of what people actually are pulling from.
00:10:30.000But it's a lot more fruitful when you can define the terms.
00:10:33.000I don't usually have too much of a problem defining terms because I think what happens with Andrew, he's really good at picking the cultural issues to debate.
00:10:41.000And then a lot of times when you have those cultural issues that you're debating, The opponents are going to be obsessed with or unable to define terms.
00:10:50.000I remember debating Not So Erudite, and she wanted me to define feminism, define this and that.
00:10:55.000And I defined it, but it was too specific because it was related to history.
00:11:00.000She just wanted a dictionary definition.
00:11:01.000So I think with a lot of the leftists and the sort of cultural people, they think that the meaning of a term or definition is just what you find in the dictionary.
00:11:09.000Of course, if you're debating movements or if you're debating big scale ideas or something like that, there's a lot more that goes into it.
00:11:14.000You can't just use a simple, oversimplified definition.
00:11:17.000I think in Mainline debate that goes on out there, especially culture stuff, it's a different field than if you're trying to debate somebody on something that's very technical.
00:11:33.000And the Tim Pool debate actually, and Andrew had the same debate, interestingly, with Tim a year before over the notion of rights and justifying the rights and how do we ground them.
00:11:43.000I didn't know that, again, that that discussion was going to go in that direction, but it ended up going that way because it was just sort of.
00:11:49.000A lot of appeals to general ideas that didn't have any grounding.
00:11:52.000And that's when you said epistemology, that's the key thing with what we mean by that typically in debate we need to know not just any old reasons for your belief, but what are the good reasons for the belief, right?
00:13:30.000And you can kind of go back to the roots of your beliefs and go, wait a minute, this is a little off the beam and you can evaluate it.
00:13:37.000When you don't, you can just kind of float around and believe whatever you want.
00:13:40.000And you can be swayed by the doctrine of the day, essentially.
00:13:42.000So that's why I wanted to jump into that because I think it's important to see, like, hey, there's some people that I like, like Tim Poole, who I think probably has, you know, way more in common with what I believe than what I would kind of reject of his beliefs.
00:13:56.000But it seemed like he really just didn't want to ground it in Christianity.
00:13:59.000He didn't want to ground it in Christian ethics.
00:14:01.000And that belief, he wanted to kind of have it be broader, but he couldn't find any place to anchor it.
00:14:07.000So, not a topic necessarily that I wanted to dive too deeply into, but I thought it was interesting.
00:14:11.000And, I think it's instructive for us to make sure that we know why we believe what we believe.
00:14:15.000So when we talk about these things, I always know you have a reason for any, even if it's a conspiracy theory, you know, that you think is interesting, right?
00:14:52.000So defining a term doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
00:14:54.000But there are a lot of conspiracies out there about the Freemasons and things that happen.
00:15:00.000Until you read an article about the murders in France, and so we have the overlay here trials underway in France for 22 people who officials allege ordered or carried out crimes for a group of Freemasons living in the suburb of Paris.
00:15:12.000Multiple people killed in different fields and different industries.
00:15:30.000So we went to the Washington Monument in Alexandria, not the Washington Monument, the D.C., but in Alexandria, they have a giant sort of temple that you can tour.
00:15:50.000The whole ethos of it is really just sort of honoring George Washington, is the main theme of it.
00:15:54.000But my wife had been there like 10 years ago, and she was like, Oh, you got to come see this.
00:15:58.000And I was just kind of like, I'm just, you know, I'm not that interested.
00:16:01.000But it was actually worth doing because we got a guy who's a historian who's a Freemason, and he kind of gave us the full on, you know, like, here is what we actually believe.
00:16:11.000And if I was to summarize it just simply, the ethos of it is essentially a kind of a syncretist, ecumenist type of view.
00:16:20.000So basically, all the religions are really just manifestations of some sort of generic theism.
00:16:54.000And that's kind of what I knew from what I'd read.
00:16:57.000And I've looked, I always try to go to the sources of things.
00:17:00.000So if I'm going to talk about David Rockefeller's views, there's a big new Brzezinski's views.
00:17:04.000I want to talk about what they said in their book, right?
00:17:06.000So I tend to not like conspiracy theories, even though I would be classed hosting Alex Jones as, you know, in the domain of conspiracy theories.
00:17:36.000So basically, my overall assessment would be I've read Manly P. Hall, I've read Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, so I'm familiar with the overall philosophy of the top Masons.
00:17:46.000But really, it's just kind of an antithetical idea to what Jesus says in John 14, right?
00:17:55.000No one comes to the Father but through me.
00:17:57.000So that's the main, I think, point of contention.
00:17:59.000If you take the New Testament seriously, you'd have to disagree with that element of Freemasonry.
00:18:06.000But beyond that, I believe also from history, the British Empire, for example, they were very proficient at using the Masonic Lodges as an intelligence network.
00:18:16.000And that's a good window into perhaps what we see with this news story is that it's just a really good venue, you could say, for organized crime to tap into and to use because of the oaths of secrecy, that kind of stuff.
00:18:31.000In this very case, for example, there were one or maybe two individuals who were working with French intelligence, right?
00:18:38.000And so, again, this overlap of secret societies and intelligence agencies, something that I've covered quite a bit over the years in my books and in Hollywood analysis, makes perfect sense to me.
00:18:49.000So, I'm not really surprised, although I don't think we usually see this level of extremity when it comes to these types of cases.
00:18:55.000But there is similar stories with Operation Gladio, which was using the Grand Orient P2 Lodge.
00:19:01.000And they were training people for these types of hits, terror events, assassinations, you name it.
00:19:08.000And you can go all the way back to in America.
00:19:10.000There's a case of William Morgan, who was a Freemason, or he was calling attention to the fact that he was murdered by Freemasons.
00:19:16.000And this led to America's short lived anti Masonic party.
00:19:20.000There actually used to be a party in America called the Anti Masonic Party due to the William Morgan event because the Masons had murdered a guy.
00:19:27.000So I don't think this is like super common, but I do think it exists.
00:19:32.000And the better method of understanding it is there's a historian, her name is Jessica Harlan Jacobs.
00:19:36.000She wrote a book called Builders of Empire.
00:19:39.000And she really just points out that the British super state, the empire, used the Masonic networks just as an intelligence apparatus.
00:19:48.000I think that's a lot of what's going on here, probably in this case as well.
00:19:52.000I don't think the Masons are as popular as they used to be 100 years ago when you had people like Rudyard Kipling writing books about it.
00:19:58.000And there's a great movie that I think illustrates this point, too.
00:20:01.000It's kind of a satire, but it's Kipling's story The Man Who Would Be King.
00:20:40.000So, you know, when I first read this, you know, the first question was like, is this just like an isolated incident or is this like proof of a, A broader conspiracy, but it seems like you're saying it's fertile ground for these types of things to happen because of the secrecy, because of this.
00:20:57.000You know, we're doing something for a higher purpose.
00:20:59.000I don't know if that purpose is laid out or this higher good is laid out.
00:21:04.000In this case, there's two possibilities because we don't really know exactly what was going on, but it could either be a situation where they actually were working at the behest of the French intelligence establishment and were being tasked with kind of outsourcing black ops and things that maybe the state didn't want.
00:21:26.000And I interviewed a while back the famous gangster Sammy the Bull.
00:21:33.000We did several podcasts and he made a great point too.
00:21:35.000He was like, Look, when I was raised up in the Sicilian Mafia, he's like, We had a very similar structure to Freemasonry with the omerta, which is the oath you take, the blood oath, you have rituals that you go through to sort of join.
00:21:49.000And, you know, it's taken very seriously.
00:21:50.000And he's like, You know, I realize that this is very similar to the way that the Masons have historically structured things.
00:21:57.000And that's partly because the Freemasonic revolutionary France, Garibaldi, he had a very close relationship with the Sicilian Mafia.
00:22:06.000And so they kind of blended and had a lot of overlap.
00:22:08.000And if you get into the history of the five families, a great book by Selwyn Robb called The Five Families, first few chapters get into this the history of the mafia.
00:22:15.000And there was an absolute connection between the Masons and the mafiosi back then.
00:22:21.000And Sammy the Bull confirmed all that.
00:22:23.000But long story short, I think that's another window into this how it's similar to organized crime.
00:22:28.000But the other option, if it's not the state using this as a sort of excuse or proxy, could also be what's called false flag rigor.
00:22:36.000Recruitment, which is where a person pretends to be somebody, oh, hey, we're the CIA and you need to come work for us, but they're actually Russians or something, right?
00:22:45.000So it could be the case that it was just an organized crime outfit.
00:22:47.000It could be individual people running their own little criminal operation, or it could have been something bigger, something like a, you know, establishment, French establishment hit squad.
00:23:24.000So, and nothing to do with your lawyer's office that was right there.
00:23:28.000Well, and I think I appreciate you framing it that way because I think people may run to the okay, so the Freemasons are this like organization that has their tentacles and everything, and they're the initiators of these kinds of actions.
00:23:41.000And really, it looks like these are kind of.
00:23:44.000One offs where they're used in a large part.
00:23:47.000And also, even one of the guys in, I think in this article, one of the guys who committed some of the crimes, I don't know if it was the murders or if it was just some of the robberies or other things that they did, said he thought he was working for, I believe he said he thought he was working for the French government.
00:24:01.000Yeah, which could be a false recruitment.
00:24:03.000So it fits right with what you were saying.
00:24:05.000And also, I want to stress that like this is, so I think European masonry does have a bit of a different flavor to the way Bible Belt, you know, granddaddy at the lodge.
00:24:34.000So, if you're willing to do more intense, extreme things, and I think the way it works in America and the Scottish, right, is like you don't get invited to the DC 33rd degree unless you're very prominent.
00:24:48.000Things would probably get a little more serious.
00:24:50.000But the local Blue Lodge, the three degrees, the local Blue Lodge, where everybody's just meeting and, I don't know, eating spaghetti or whatever they do.
00:25:23.000Like, if they are kind of carrying out these targeted attacks on people that would be against whatever Freemasons are for in that particular area, is there anything else concerning about that?
00:25:32.000Like, going back to the, you know, The all gods are kind of there.
00:25:36.000Yeah, I think this the concerning element is even at the Blue Lodge, like the basic idea is still a kind of syncretism or pluralism that just doesn't fit with Christ's teaching.
00:25:52.000So, as a Christian, it's definitely not an organization that you should be a part of.
00:25:59.000I mean, and of course, Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church in their official teachings say that you can't, it's a violation of canon law.
00:26:06.000Classic Protestant churches have also said you can't, um, you know, I guess that doesn't apply to Baptist deacons because most Baptist deacons are members of the lodge, but uh, yeah, so they're also drinkers, so oh, yeah, um,
00:26:21.000but the other thing I would add too is like, and I'm not defending like the Scottish right, I think it's just as bad theologically as the European Grand Orient, but there's a lot more nefarious kind of stuff that tends to happen in like the Grand Orient lodges because they were very famous in the French Revolution for helping to support.
00:26:39.000The revolutionaries and their committee for public safety, 10, 20,000 people getting their heads chopped off.
00:27:31.000When I saw this story and I was like, I don't know where we're going to go with this, I don't know if Freemasons really, is this going to end up being another Dan Brown book or something?
00:27:39.000But one last thing, too, that I think is a good window into this for what I'm talking about with the European element is the propaganda Douay Lodge.
00:27:47.000And that's Italy's elite Grand Orient Lodge.
00:27:50.000And that's where Gladio recruited a lot of its hit squads from.
00:27:54.000So, this is probably Grand Orient Masonry.
00:27:57.000I don't know which lodge it is, but that would make a lot more sense with the way Gladio was structured, which is the post World War II, Cold War era CIA training of, and Kissinger really ran this whole operation according to multiple sources to stave off a Soviet invasion of Europe.
00:29:04.000Well, I just did a crazy interview with John Kiriakou.
00:29:07.000We did a two hour interview on a lot of this stuff.
00:29:09.000And he was saying basically a separate interview, but he was saying that he was one of the guys that was tasked with coming up with crazy ideas.
00:29:28.000The way that the book described it, it was just like sometimes 10, 20, 30 people that were dropped into a country were immediately captured and killed.
00:30:43.000Israel, Lovell Merhatem, has been kind of in a decent position with the United States, probably a pretty favorable position with the general population in the United States.
00:30:53.000That support goes up because it's a tragedy and it's an event that we're like, everybody's shocked by, right?
00:30:59.000You can get into how it happened, why it happened, all of the stories about that.
00:31:05.000No matter what you think about Israel, no matter what you think about Gaza and Hamas, it's a tragedy when something like that happens in Gaza.
00:31:13.000Nobody, I think, on any kind of credible side of this has been denying that it's a tragedy.
00:31:19.000It's just whether or not that is something that should have happened, shouldn't have happened, should have happened differently.
00:31:23.000I'm in the camp of they should have taken care of Hamas, but it should have happened much differently.
00:31:27.000I think he lost a lot of support for a reasonable cause, a debatable cause, right?
00:32:46.000And that's fine to have that kind of a disagreement.
00:32:48.000But when you start turning on everybody that has a pretty good track record, has been pretty consistent on these issues in the past, and you start kind of aligning yourself with somebody who you would never a few years ago consider a friend or an ally, that's probably a better way to say it because there might be some good people, but you wouldn't align with their views.
00:36:30.000And so, although the Sunnis will say, oh, technically we can't do takiyya, they still can and they still will, even though the Shias believe that they specifically can do deception.
00:36:39.000So, they do it until they have the upper hand.
00:36:42.000I think everybody's probably seen in the UK how different it is.
00:36:47.000I went to the UK in 2018 or 19 to speak at a conference, and it was just, it's like Londonistan.
00:36:58.000And the evil socialist leadership, the Fabian Socialists, Kier Starmer is a Fabian Socialist, and the people before him that ran the country all the way back to Blair, right?
00:37:06.000They believe that no, Islam is the great ally.
00:37:37.000But to get back to Islam and Sneeko, so yeah, I think that people are being, because people in America don't know the history and the religion.
00:37:47.000Of Islam, they think that because there's these statements that Jesus is a prophet or Mary's a virgin, that's much closer to what, you know, Judaism or something says.
00:38:01.000It's completely opposite of what Jesus says.
00:38:03.000They have, well, they believe that if you believe in the Trinity, you're an idolater.
00:38:11.000And eventually they do have the right to kill you if it's the type of Islamic regime that's like a Sunni.
00:38:20.000Now, I'm not pro Shia or anything like that, but historically, Shias have had a tendency to be a little more amenable to Christians because this gets really hairy.
00:38:33.000Define kind of the fields for us of who we're talking about.
00:38:35.000What nations typically would you think of as being dominant?
00:38:38.000Iran is Shia, and that's the branch of Islam that is ruled by mullahs and they believe in a kind of a lineal descent that has to be from Muhammad, from the different.
00:38:50.000That's really the divide is tracking the descendants.
00:38:54.000And who really had the real faith and passed it on.
00:39:12.000And he debates the Sunnis all the time.
00:39:15.000And one of his main arguments is that Sunni Islam is just sort of crazy because the Quran, in his view and in their view, is just another form of Neoplatonism.
00:39:26.000So, they will be at great lengths to try to.
00:39:30.000In other words, they're a little more.
00:39:47.000So basically, it's the idea that it's not exactly like what Masons would say, but it's the idea that there is a skeletal structure of all the world religions that's something akin to neoplatonism.
00:39:59.000Platonism, like that's a superstructure.
00:40:01.000And then the world religions are kind of like skeletal, like outfits that the superstructure masks itself under, if that makes sense.
00:40:10.000And so the Shia Islam has that type of a view.
00:40:13.000Now, it's an insane eschatological cult.
00:40:24.000The apocalyptic kind of component through their eschatology is like that's one thing that they don't, that they're not lying about when they tell you that on Fox News.
00:41:13.000And if you watch the debates that I do, most of the debates, almost all debates actually, have been with the Sunni sort of radical types like Jake, the Muslim metaphysician, Daniel Hakikachu, Muslim Lantern.
00:41:28.000They're all sort of the Saudi Arabian style, sort of Sunni.
00:41:32.000They're called Salafi, which means the original righteous of the first couple generations of Islam.
00:41:36.000And they take it very seriously in that literal, we're not figurative with the Quran like the Shia are.
00:41:42.000Like everything is like a literal sort of Jihad type of thing, yeah.
00:41:46.000Well, and when I said like the lineage, it was like who had the truth, right?
00:41:49.000Because there was debate over like how many there were like 20 something versions, I believe, of the Quran.
00:41:55.000Exactly, they all had all of them burned, and it's like this one.
00:41:57.000And so the debate is, okay, well, what is the true Islam?
00:42:00.000And that's where you get the different sects, and even within some, like you said, Sunni, there's different flavors of it because you have different kind of tradition.
00:42:07.000So, the so your question, like where does Christianity fare better, uh, it kind of just depends on the flavor of Islam, for example, you have Ottoman.
00:42:16.000Turks and sultans who probably didn't even believe the religion, but it was a very useful tool for the Ottoman Empire.
00:42:23.000And they would absolutely persecute Christianity.
00:42:25.000They would take the girls into slavery.
00:42:27.000Christian ladies would be brought into sex trafficking.
00:42:31.000Sultans would even have a harem of boys.
00:42:33.000I mean, just terrible stuff, which isn't actually what even the Quran teaches, right?
00:42:52.000But anyway, so, for example, the British Empire, they made an alliance with a lot of Sunnis and what are called Wahhabi eventually against the Ottomans.
00:43:08.000And they wanted to sort of pit them off against each other.
00:43:12.000That's why you have Saudi Arabia and all these countries in the Middle East after the Sykes Pico agreement and all that.
00:43:17.000The British Empire sort of divided up the Middle East.
00:43:31.000To go back to the question, so everybody's presented with this sort of false choice of, like, well, you know, if Trump's making a mistake, if the evangelicals are wrong, oh, then the Muslims must be good.
00:44:27.000But I'm a little struck by it because.
00:44:30.000It doesn't like on it on the surface as somebody who, and I don't have the in depth understanding that I think you and many others have on this, but I did teach a class called A Christian's Response to Islam.
00:44:40.000I have been to Indonesia and I have preached the name of Jesus Christ in the largest Islamic country in the world, not in the cities, but in Aceh, kind of in the northern part of the island there.
00:44:52.000So I understand what it's like to be in these places, and I've done outreach to Muslims before, and I felt that kind of really dark presence of being in a demonic.
00:45:03.000Of culture and go, like, how can you ever think that there's an alliance that would super like evangelicals still believe way, way, way more like the fundamental things, like Jesus Christ being the Messiah?
00:46:08.000There's a great book by a guy named Gabriel Saeed Reynolds, and he's a scholar on the history of Islam and its texts.
00:46:16.000And I forget the name of the book, but I had to use it for one of my, I read the whole thing for one of my Islamic, I think the Daniel Hikikichu debate that I did.
00:46:23.000And basically, what he does is he takes 10 examples from the Quran about where it's just lifted from the Bible and from pseudepigrapha and from Gnostic texts, and they actually just mix up the stories.
00:46:35.000And so it's not even consistent with the original narrative, and probably that has to do with.
00:46:52.000For example, you have Jesus being the Messiah.
00:46:59.000That's a specific Hebrew term for the anointed one, right?
00:47:03.000In Islam, they don't know what this, there's no significance for this term because he's not the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies to be the world's Messiah.
00:47:13.000He's just called Messiah, and there's no theological significance to it, right?
00:47:17.000Very similar with the dietary laws or the Levitical washings.
00:47:22.000In Christian theology, we would say, well, those are types of baptism or spiritual realities and so forth.
00:47:28.000Paul in the New Testament says, for example, that the unclean animals and the clean animals are like pedagogical teaching advice about morals, right?
00:47:35.000In Islam, it's just Allah just says, do that.
00:47:39.000There's literally no significance or purpose for these things.
00:47:41.000So you can tell, well, so this is just like a dude who's illiterate hearing stories.
00:47:47.000Crafting a religion, and he doesn't even know the context.
00:47:50.000And there's so many examples of this, it gets crazy.
00:47:51.000Like, they think that the Ark of the Covenant was a box that would fly.
00:50:51.000And so, you know, that's the thing about this because Islam, and, you know, people obviously walk on eggshells when you're talking about it, but I think it's fair to be critical where it's necessary.
00:51:03.000Like I said, I'm critical of President Trump when he does things that I think are bad for the country, bad for the world in general, like in our place in it.
00:51:12.000It doesn't mean, you know, doing what Europe wants us to do.
00:52:21.000And for you to start to think that you have more in common with Islam than you do with Protestants as a Catholic or an Orthodox is a huge problem for us because that will divide us in ways that they absolutely want.
00:52:56.000I watched a number of videos at the time back in like 2007, 2008.
00:53:00.000And he did a video about the population and needing the replacement population level of being 2.1 or 2.2, whatever it was, and saying how Germany at this rate would be a predominantly Muslim country by 2050.
00:53:14.000And this was back in 2007 or 8 that I was watching this stuff and seeing like, oh my gosh, like this is a real, real problem.
00:53:19.000But I think people right now would say Jews are bad, therefore don't believe them that this is a problem.
00:53:27.000And we're really kind of, I mean, I want your opinion on this.
00:53:29.000I really feel like we're sleepwalking into a really massive issue with Islam like the UK is facing.
00:53:35.000And it's all because, well, Jews must be bad.
00:53:37.000So therefore, maybe these guys really aren't that bad.
00:53:41.000Well, one of the things I took issue with was some of the commentators that you had on the screen there, like Sneeko and others, was over this issue of who was actually the largest supporter of illegal immigration in the last several years.
00:53:56.000And a lot of people pointed to the Jewish organization Hi Us, but they were like minimal, they were like 5%.
00:54:02.000The biggest was Catholic charities by like massive percentage, like 80% massive.
00:54:08.000How did they support Catholic charities?
00:54:11.000Everything from money to sanctuary cities to human trafficking.
00:54:15.000All of that is involved in the way that the Roman Catholic Church in America has facilitated it.
00:54:20.000And by the way, the papacy and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops openly say, open your borders.
00:54:26.000I mean, all the way back to Francis, they've been saying, we should open our borders.
00:56:20.000And, uh, yeah, because I remember trying to make that work and what forced the square peg into the round hole, right?
00:56:26.000So, um, the issue though with the geopolitical side of it is that, you know, the papacy, especially since Vatican, post Vatican II, has pretty much been on board with all the globalization agendas.
00:56:39.000And this is a thing that nobody ever talks about, which I've been highlighting.
00:56:42.000There's a document in Vatican II, which all of Vatican II is binding.
00:56:46.000Even if, by the way, something's not ex cathedra, you still have to follow, according to Roman Catholic canon law, the, Ordinary teaching, as it's called, of the papacy, even if you disagree and you think that it's not infallible, you still have to submit with docility in your conscience.
00:57:17.000But there's a document called Gaudium et Spez, which was Vatican II's social and political statement.
00:57:24.000Everybody focuses on the documents related to ecumenism and how Muslims and Christians and Jews worship the same God, which is all problematic.
00:57:34.000But there's another important document that's overlooked called Gaudium et Spez, and this has to do with the Vatican's political statement.
00:57:40.000And it openly says we're for chain migration, open borders.
00:57:45.000We want to get rid of self defense amongst nations.
00:58:17.000And that, I think, is another key window into pinpointing okay, maybe prior to Vatican II, Pius XII still upheld some traditional values, but post Vatican II, they've become explicitly a sort of voice of a United Nations style view of nation states.
00:58:34.000And in fact, each successive pope, even if we wanted to argue that, I think John Paul had a lot of problems, but a lot of times Catholics say, oh, well, he helped in the Cold War.
00:59:03.000And like you said, Even if we were to grant that it's not ex cathedral, which by the way, Vatican II is ordinary universal teaching, you can't reject Vatican II.
00:59:13.000But even if we did grant that these were all political, personal opinions, you are still supposed to follow the papal ethical teaching, even if you disagree, and that's in their canon law.
00:59:23.000So you have to submit with docility, is the terminology.
00:59:27.000So it makes no sense to say, and again, this is the same papacy that says we worship the same God as the Muslims, right?
00:59:36.000So, are they finding, I mean, steal me in the argument too for me from, and I say that because I want to know the actual argument.
00:59:43.000Like, I don't want to like straw man it from my perspective.
00:59:45.000Like, I really want to understand, like, how are they covering this?
00:59:49.000Is this just like, you know, Christ wouldn't have borders, wouldn't believe in borders, wouldn't like we're all God's children?
00:59:55.000Like, a lot of the low tier argumentation is that.
00:59:59.000I mean, if you get into like the Vatican II documents or the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, which is the successor of the Holy Office, if you get into those documents, I mean, they'll have a little more sophisticated.
01:00:08.000Style of argumentation, but I think they'll just say something like, well, we all worship the God of Abraham, right?
01:00:14.000Vatican II says this in Nostra Tate III and Lumen Gentium 16.
01:00:18.000Oh, well, it's all the God of Abraham has the same lineage as Jews, Muslims, and Christians, therefore, generic theism.
01:00:31.000The New Testament is very explicit that if you don't have the Son, you don't have the Father.
01:00:37.000And here's another mistake that I noticed having all these debates with the Catholics on this topic, not just Tim Gordon, but others in the last two years.
01:00:44.000They're also making a leap from worship.
01:02:04.000I mean, if you're just looking at the attributes of God, if you want to say, like, let's just focus on God and not worry about the Trinitarian aspect of it, you can't do that for Christians, I understand.
01:02:13.000But the attributes of Allah are not the same.
01:02:16.000Even at a fundamental level, they wouldn't even line up, and you would at least just be left with the Christian God and the Jewish God to kind of contend with.
01:02:43.000And that makes it much more clear for people.
01:02:46.000Christians have a very hard time understanding why somebody would die in battle for God like that by blowing themselves up in a terrorist attack.
01:02:55.000And it's like, well, if you understand their theology, it makes it much clearer.
01:02:58.000Like, if that was, like, as Christians, if we believe the only way to, like, fully, like, if we fully believed in God and heaven and hell and, like, woo, hell, real bad, not like bad, like, but, like, you do everything that you can to avoid hell.
01:03:11.000Like, and you give everything that you have, every ounce of energy.
01:03:13.000And if it could take, like, chopping off your own arm, you'd do it, right?
01:03:17.000If we believed in it like that, then the only obvious answer would be to die in jihad because that's a guarantee.
01:03:22.000Otherwise, it's like, well, I hope that I kept the pillars of Islam and I did all the things I'm Supposed to do, and also that God is in a good mood that day.
01:03:32.000Actually, I forgot about this point too.
01:03:33.000That's this in Western theology, they call this theological voluntarism, which is that God's actions are not really dictated by his nature, his actions are arbitrarily willed.
01:03:44.000So, God, for example, there was a debate in the Middle Ages could God take the Virgin Mary out of heaven and damn her if he willed to?
01:03:51.000And the reason they had this debate was whether God's actions are dictated by his nature.
01:03:56.000And so, for example, if his nature is holy and good, well, he can't lie and go against.
01:04:02.000But because Islam is very similar to, say, a very strict Calvinist type of perspective, they would actually identify the divine nature and the divine will so God could will to be other.
01:04:45.000Thus, Allah is the direct cause of every single event at every second.
01:04:50.000Uh, everything so good and evil, and even towards the end of the Quran, there's an actual surah which says God is directly wills good and evil, and they don't just mean providence, they mean directly causing evil.
01:05:03.000That's why He is also the greatest of deceivers.
01:05:07.000Geez, I guess you get to play both sides there.
01:05:09.000That seems like a very good strategy for Satan to employ, exactly.
01:05:16.000Well, isn't it interesting that if all is the greatest of deceivers, it seems like maybe the God of Islam is something Jesus talked about, right?
01:05:35.000So, I came up with a Protestant, premillennial ish kind of, and I hold it very loosely because I also believe that there's a lot of room for debate, a lot of room for error.
01:05:46.000And ultimately, it does not affect, I don't think, like how I am to live my life.
01:05:51.000I think there's, you know, what Christ is commanding me to do in my life, that's what really dictates.
01:07:39.000I don't know how deep I got into that, but man, it's really interesting because I'm baffled by this, but I also see that Islam has been trying to subvert, conquer, whatever you want to call it, the West for a very long time.
01:07:53.000They've been doing it through birth rates in different places, they've been doing it through migration and other places, and then getting going.
01:07:58.000And in this case, it seems like they're infiltrating.
01:08:02.000I don't even think it's like infiltration of the Vatican, but it's like the Vatican seems to be playing right along with it.
01:08:08.000In a lot of ways, based on what you've just talked about and what we're seeing.
01:08:11.000But then trying to pit Americans who are Christians against Israel so much so that they side with Islam is just the creepiest, weirdest thing that I've seen lately.
01:08:27.000And it all does come down to me that Jews are bad, so therefore Islam might be good.
01:08:36.000How do we help people get past the Jews bad part.
01:08:39.000I mean, because you can have that conversation, and I think there's a lot of conversation to have there, like on how to deal with what we're seeing Israel do and influence in politics in the United States.
01:08:48.000And you can have all those arguments, but how do you get past that and go, hey guys, like Islam really does want this?
01:08:55.000They want you focused on Jews bad so that you think they're good because their goals haven't changed.
01:08:59.000One thing that happens, and I think you alluded to this earlier, is that people that are, say, 40, 45 and under, they think, well, if Boomer news is saying something, it's not true.
01:09:18.000And COVID really popped the lid off of all that for people that even if at that point you weren't like, oh, they're lying to me, COVID came around and you're like, maybe they were the whole time.
01:09:27.000Maybe Alex Jones is freaking right, dead coming.
01:09:29.000Well, in the 2000s, I remember like, I came to be convinced that I didn't agree with the sort of normie, you know, Fox News style of stuff.
01:09:38.000I mean, I was never liberal, but I was just.
01:09:40.000Didn't believe what the Obama years did for me because there were so many lies told about Obama, and I was like, he's bad enough without having to lie about XYZ.