Making Sense - Sam Harris - June 05, 2014


#1 — Drugs And The Meaning Of Life


Episode Stats

Length

20 minutes

Words per Minute

174.74707

Word Count

3,656

Sentence Count

186

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

1


Summary

In this episode, Dr. Carl Sagan talks about the benefits and dangers of psychedelics, and why you should try them if you're curious about what they can do for you and your family. He also discusses the dangers of smoking and drinking in general, and the benefits of taking psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin, which are among the most potent psychedelics on the planet. Dr. Sagan is a professor of psychology at the University of Southern California, and is the author of The End of Faith: How to Live a Good Life in a Drug-Free World, which is available for purchase on Amazon Prime and Vimeo worldwide. His work is also available in Kindle, iBook, Paperback, Hardcover, and Audio Book format. The End Of Faith is available on all major podcast directories, including Audible, iTunes, and Podchaser, wherever books are available. It's free to read and listen to on any platform where you get a good quality copy of the book. If you don't already have a Kindle device, you can get a free eReader app, too! Kindle $9.99, or an Audible $9,99, and Audible is Free $19.99. iBook is Free on Audible Free $99, too. Other good quality ebooks are also available for Kindle $29.95, or Audible at==1.99 or at=3. Audio Book is Free at=1=3r&mt=3 Book Recommendation: Kindle Free Trial Download MP3" Subscribe to Kindle Free eReader $3, $5,99 & iBookcase Free Trial=3RSS=3,99&mt3=1&qid=3&format=3? Kindle is Free Subscribe to iBookmark=AuBook=Apostle=A&q=AQ&qref=Avenue=Aq&t=3a&qlist=3s=3M&qset=3f&q&qcount=3d=3c=3e&q cite=3b&qname=3q=3Bc=1 &qrefref=1s=2&qqrefree=3g=2c&qdata=3m&qb=3l3&qr=3SdbV&qtoc=3Qt=1c=A3S&qt=4S5&qx&qwr=1S5Qt&qn&qcr&qk=3C&qf=2S5c=5S1AQI&qw&qc=4c=2Qc=P&q


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Drugs and the Meaning of Life
00:00:23.140 Everything we do is for the purpose of altering consciousness.
00:00:27.220 We form friendships so that we can feel certain emotions, like love, and avoid others, like loneliness.
00:00:33.780 We eat specific foods to enjoy their fleeting presence on our tongues.
00:00:37.940 We read for the pleasure of thinking another person's thoughts.
00:00:41.480 Every waking moment, and even in our dreams, we struggle to direct the flow of sensation, emotion, and cognition towards states of consciousness that we value.
00:00:50.860 Drugs are another means toward this end.
00:00:53.580 Some are illegal. Some are stigmatized. Some are dangerous.
00:00:56.460 Though perversely, these sets only partially intersect.
00:01:00.960 Some drugs of extraordinary power and utility, such as psilocybin, the active compound in magic mushrooms, and lysergic acid diethylamide, LSD, pose no apparent risk of addiction and are physically well tolerated, and yet one can still be sent to prison for their use.
00:01:14.840 Whereas drugs such as tobacco and alcohol, which have ruined countless lives, are enjoyed ad libidum in almost every society on earth.
00:01:22.100 There are other points on this continuum.
00:01:24.360 There are other points on this continuum. MDMA, or ecstasy, has remarkable therapeutic potential, but is also susceptible to abuse, and some evidence suggests that it can be neurotoxic.
00:01:32.920 One of the great responsibilities we have is to educate ourselves, along with the next generation, about which substances are worth ingesting and for what purpose and which are not.
00:01:43.080 The problem, however, is that we refer to all biologically active compounds by a single term, drugs, making it nearly impossible to have an intelligent discussion about the psychological, medical, ethical, and legal issues surrounding their use.
00:01:55.660 The poverty of our language has been only slightly eased by the introduction of the term psychedelics, to differentiate certain visionary compounds which can produce extraordinary insights from narcotics and other classic agents of stupefaction and abuse.
00:02:09.540 However, we should not be too quick to feel nostalgia for the counterculture of the 1960s.
00:02:14.560 Yes, crucial breakthroughs were made, socially and psychologically, and drugs were central to the process.
00:02:19.660 But one need only read accounts of the time, such as Joan Didion's slouching towards Bethlehem, to see the problem with a society bent upon rapture at any cost.
00:02:29.640 For every insight of lasting value produced by drugs, there was an army of zombies with flowers in their hair shuffling toward failure and regret.
00:02:37.740 Turning on, tuning in, and dropping out as wise, or even benign, only if you can then drop into a mode of life that makes ethical and material sense, and doesn't leave your children wandering in traffic.
00:02:47.960 Drug abuse and addiction are real problems, of course, the remedy for which is education and medical treatment, not incarceration.
00:02:56.640 In fact, the most abused drugs in the United States now appear to be oxycodone and other prescription painkillers.
00:03:02.440 Should these medications be made illegal? Of course not.
00:03:06.080 But people need to be informed about their hazards, and addicts need treatment.
00:03:09.920 And all drugs, including alcohol, cigarettes, and aspirin, must be kept out of the hands of children.
00:03:14.460 I discuss issues of drug policy in some detail in my first book, The End of Faith, and my thinking on the subject hasn't changed.
00:03:22.440 The war on drugs has been lost and should never have been waged.
00:03:25.760 I can think of no right more fundamental than the right to peacefully steward the contents of one's own consciousness.
00:03:31.460 The fact that we pointlessly ruin the lives of non-violent drug users by incarcerating them, at enormous expense,
00:03:37.500 constitutes one of the great moral failures of our time.
00:03:39.940 And the fact that we make room for them in our prisons by paroling murderers, rapists, and child molesters
00:03:45.520 makes one wonder whether civilization isn't simply doomed.
00:03:49.580 I have two daughters who will one day take drugs.
00:03:52.920 Of course, I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely.
00:03:56.680 But a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable.
00:04:02.240 I hope they someday enjoy a morning cup of tea or coffee as much as I do.
00:04:05.980 If they drink alcohol as adults, as they probably will, I will encourage them to do it safely.
00:04:11.700 If they choose to smoke marijuana, I will urge moderation.
00:04:15.100 Tobacco should be shunned, and I will do everything within the bounds of decent parenting to steer them away from it.
00:04:20.660 Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine,
00:04:26.200 I might never sleep again.
00:04:27.400 But if they don't try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives,
00:04:32.780 I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience.
00:04:38.140 This is not to say that everyone should take psychedelics.
00:04:41.160 As I will make clear in a moment, these drugs pose certain dangers.
00:04:45.040 Undoubtedly, some people cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug.
00:04:50.140 It has been many years since I took psychedelics myself,
00:04:52.980 and my abstinence is born of a healthy respect for the risks involved.
00:04:56.480 However, there was a period in my early 20s when I found psilocybin and LSD to be indispensable tools,
00:05:02.440 and some of the most important hours of my life were spent under their influence.
00:05:06.120 Without them, I might never have discovered there was an inner landscape of mind worth exploring.
00:05:11.500 There's no getting around the role of luck here.
00:05:14.100 If you are lucky and you take the right drug, you will know what it is to be enlightened,
00:05:18.200 or to be close enough to persuade you that enlightenment is possible.
00:05:21.740 If you run lucky, you will know what it is to be clinically insane.
00:05:25.100 While I don't recommend the latter experience, it does increase one's respect for the tenuous condition of sanity,
00:05:31.920 as well as one's compassion for people who suffer from mental illness.
00:05:35.620 Human beings have ingested plant-based psychedelics for millennia,
00:05:39.440 but scientific research on these compounds did not begin until the 1950s.
00:05:43.120 By 1965, a thousand studies had been published, primarily on psilocybin and LSD,
00:05:49.240 many of which attested to the usefulness of psychedelics in the treatment of clinical depression,
00:05:53.660 obsessive-compulsive disorder, alcohol addiction, and the pain and anxiety associated with terminal cancer.
00:05:59.920 Within a few years, however, this entire field of research was abolished
00:06:03.260 in an effort to stem the spread of these drugs among the public.
00:06:05.740 After a hiatus that lasted an entire generation,
00:06:09.400 scientific research on the pharmacology and therapeutic value of psychedelics has quietly resumed.
00:06:15.440 Psychedelics such as psilocybin, LSD, DMT, and mescaline all powerfully alter cognition, perception, and mood.
00:06:22.620 Most seem to exert their influence through the serotonin system in the brain,
00:06:26.280 primarily by binding to 5-HT2A receptors,
00:06:29.500 though several have an affinity for other receptors as well,
00:06:32.400 leading to an increased activity in the prefrontal cortex.
00:06:35.800 Although the prefrontal cortex in turn modulates subcortical dopamine production,
00:06:40.240 and certain of these compounds, such as LSD,
00:06:42.640 bind directly to dopamine receptors,
00:06:44.700 the effect of psychedelics seems to take place largely outside of dopamine pathways,
00:06:49.140 which could explain why these drugs are not habit-forming.
00:06:52.200 The efficacy of psychedelics might seem to establish
00:06:54.940 the material basis of mental and spiritual life beyond any doubt,
00:06:58.680 for the introduction of these substances into the brain
00:07:00.900 is the obvious cause of any numinous apocalypse that follows.
00:07:03.840 It is possible, however, if not actually plausible,
00:07:07.400 to seize this evidence from the other end,
00:07:09.380 and argue, as Aldous Huxley did in his classic,
00:07:11.660 The Doors of Perception,
00:07:13.180 that the primary function of the brain may be eliminative.
00:07:16.460 Its purpose may be to prevent a transpersonal dimension of mind
00:07:19.820 from flooding consciousness,
00:07:21.960 thereby allowing apes like ourselves to make their way in the world
00:07:25.020 without being dazzled at every step by visionary phenomenon
00:07:27.800 that are irrelevant to their physical survival.
00:07:29.980 Huxley thought of the brain as a kind of reducing valve for mind at large.
00:07:35.280 In fact, the idea that the brain is a filter rather than the origin of mind
00:07:38.560 goes back at least as far as Henri Bergson and William James.
00:07:42.440 In Huxley's view, this would explain the efficacy of psychedelics.
00:07:46.000 They may simply be a material means of opening the tap.
00:07:49.740 Huxley was operating under the assumption that psychedelics decrease brain activity.
00:07:54.080 Some recent data have lent support to this view.
00:07:56.020 For instance, a neuroimaging study of psilocybin suggests
00:07:59.060 that the drug primarily reduces activity in the anterior cingulate cortex,
00:08:03.360 a region involved in a wide variety of tasks related to self-monitoring.
00:08:07.620 However, other studies have found that psychedelics increase activity throughout the brain.
00:08:11.920 Whatever the case, the action of these drugs does not rule out dualism,
00:08:15.560 or the existence of realms of mind beyond the brain.
00:08:18.600 But then nothing does.
00:08:20.040 That is one of the problems with views of this kind.
00:08:22.220 They appear to be unfalsifiable.
00:08:23.500 We have reason to be skeptical of the brain as barrier thesis.
00:08:29.180 If the brain were merely a filter on the mind, damaging it should increase cognition.
00:08:34.040 In fact, strategically damaging the brain should be the most reliable method of spiritual practice
00:08:38.400 available to anyone.
00:08:39.860 In almost every case, loss of brain should yield more mind.
00:08:44.040 But that is not how the mind works.
00:08:46.340 Some people try to get around this by suggesting that the brain may function more like a radio,
00:08:50.620 a receiver of conscious states, rather than a barrier to them.
00:08:54.880 At first glance, this would appear to account for the deleterious effects of neurological injury
00:08:58.980 and disease.
00:09:00.120 For if one smashes a radio with a hammer, it will no longer function properly.
00:09:04.720 There is a problem with this metaphor, however.
00:09:07.420 Those who employ it invariably forget that we are the music, not the radio.
00:09:11.620 If the brain were nothing more than a receiver of conscious states, it should be impossible
00:09:16.740 to diminish a person's experience of the cosmos by damaging her brain.
00:09:21.240 She might seem unconscious from the outside, like a broken radio, but subjectively speaking,
00:09:26.360 the music would play on.
00:09:28.520 Specific reductions in brain activity might benefit people in certain ways, unmasking memories
00:09:33.500 or abilities that are being actively inhibited by the regions in question.
00:09:36.700 But there is no reason to think that the destruction of the central nervous system would leave the
00:09:41.000 mind unaffected, much less improved.
00:09:43.940 Medications that reduce anxiety generally work by increasing the effect of the inhibitory
00:09:48.040 neurotransmitter GABA, thereby diminishing neuronal activity in various parts of the brain.
00:09:52.920 But the fact that dampening arousal in this way can make people feel better does not suggest
00:09:57.720 that they would feel better still if they were drugged into a coma.
00:10:01.160 Similarly, it would be unsurprising if psilocybin reduced brain activity in areas responsible
00:10:05.620 for self-monitoring, because that might in part account for the experiences that are often
00:10:10.140 associated with this drug.
00:10:12.120 This does not give us any reason to believe that turning off the brain entirely would yield
00:10:16.420 an increased awareness of spiritual reality.
00:10:19.440 However, the brain does exclude an extraordinary amount of information from consciousness, and
00:10:24.340 like many people who have taken psychedelics, I can attest that these compounds throw open
00:10:28.280 the gates.
00:10:29.820 Positing the existence of mind at large is more tempting in some states of consciousness than
00:10:34.060 in others, but these drugs can also produce mental states that are best viewed as forms
00:10:38.120 of psychosis.
00:10:39.640 As a general matter, I believe that we should be very slow to draw conclusions about the
00:10:43.080 nature of the cosmos on the basis of inner experiences, no matter how profound they may
00:10:47.880 seem.
00:10:49.100 One thing is certain.
00:10:50.860 The mind is vaster and more fluid than our ordinary waking consciousness suggests, and it
00:10:55.820 is simply impossible to communicate the profundity, or seeming profundity, of psychedelic states
00:11:01.000 to those who have never experienced them.
00:11:03.360 Indeed, it is even difficult to remind oneself of the power of these states once they have
00:11:07.100 passed.
00:11:08.600 Many people wonder about the difference between meditation and other contemplative practices
00:11:12.520 and psychedelics.
00:11:14.300 Are these drugs a form of cheating, or are they the only means of authentic awakening?
00:11:19.320 They are neither.
00:11:21.120 All psychoactive drugs modulate the existing neurochemistry of the brain, either by mimicking specific neurotransmitters
00:11:27.300 or by causing neurotransmitters themselves to be more or less active.
00:11:31.540 Everything that one can experience on a drug is at some level an expression of the brain's
00:11:35.420 potential.
00:11:36.680 Hence, whatever one has seen or felt after ingesting LSD is likely to have been seen or
00:11:41.220 felt by someone, somewhere, without it.
00:11:44.060 However, it cannot be denied that psychedelics are a uniquely potent means of altering consciousness.
00:11:49.540 Teach a person to meditate, pray, chant, or do yoga, and there is no guarantee that anything
00:11:54.080 will happen.
00:11:55.220 Depending on his aptitude or interest, the only reward for his efforts may be boredom and
00:11:59.400 a sore back.
00:12:00.940 If, however, a person ingests 100 micrograms of LSD, what happens next will depend on a
00:12:05.960 variety of factors, but there is no question that something will happen.
00:12:09.900 And boredom is simply not in the cards.
00:12:12.560 Within the hour, the significance of his existence will bear down upon him like an avalanche.
00:12:17.540 As the late Terence McKenna never tired of pointing out, this guarantee of profound effect,
00:12:22.340 for better or worse, is what separates psychedelics from every other method of spiritual inquiry.
00:12:28.480 Ingesting a powerful dose of a psychedelic drug is like strapping oneself to a rocket without
00:12:33.180 a guidance system.
00:12:34.640 One might wind up somewhere worth going, and depending on the compound in one's set and
00:12:38.820 setting, some trajectories are more likely than others.
00:12:42.200 But however methodically one prepares for the voyage, one can still be hurled into states
00:12:46.640 of mind so painful and confusing as to be indistinguishable from psychosis.
00:12:50.800 Hence the terms psychotomimetic and psychotogenic that are occasionally applied to these drugs.
00:12:56.800 I have visited both extremes on the psychedelic continuum.
00:13:00.480 The positive experiences were more sublime than I could have ever imagined, or than I can
00:13:04.440 now faithfully recall.
00:13:06.680 These chemicals disclose layers of beauty that art is powerless to capture, and for which
00:13:11.160 the beauty of nature itself is a mere simulacrum.
00:13:13.680 It is one thing to be awestruck by the sight of a giant redwood, and amazed at the details
00:13:19.240 of its history and underlying biology.
00:13:21.760 It is quite another to spend an apparent eternity in egoless communion with it.
00:13:26.480 Positive psychedelic experiences often reveal how wondrously at ease in the universe a human
00:13:31.420 being can be.
00:13:32.700 And for most of us, normal waking consciousness does not offer so much as a glimmer of these
00:13:36.740 deeper possibilities.
00:13:37.600 People generally come away from such experiences with a sense that conventional states of consciousness
00:13:42.680 obscure and truncate sacred insights and emotions.
00:13:46.720 If the patriarchs and matriarchs of the world's religions experience such states of mind, many
00:13:51.220 of their claims about the nature of reality would make subjective sense.
00:13:55.640 A beatific vision does not tell you anything about the birth of the cosmos, but it does reveal
00:14:00.320 how utterly transfigured a mind can be by a full collision with the present moment.
00:14:04.680 However, as the peaks are high, the valleys are deep.
00:14:10.140 My bad trips were without question the most harrowing hours I have ever endured, and they
00:14:14.700 make the notion of hell, as a metaphor if not an actual destination, seem perfectly apt.
00:14:20.680 If nothing else, these excruciating experiences can become a source of compassion.
00:14:25.540 I think it may be impossible to imagine what it is like to suffer from mental illness without
00:14:29.900 having briefly touched its shores.
00:14:31.540 At both ends of the continuum, time dilates in ways that cannot be described, apart from
00:14:38.060 merely observing that these experiences can seem eternal.
00:14:41.420 I have spent hours, both good and bad, in which any understanding that I had ingested a
00:14:45.520 drug was lost, and all memories of my past along with it.
00:14:49.340 Immersion in the present moment to this degree is synonymous with the feeling that one has always
00:14:53.500 been and will always be in precisely this condition.
00:14:56.660 Depending on the character of one's experience at that point, notions of salvation or damnation
00:15:02.160 may well apply.
00:15:03.920 Blake's line about beholding eternity in an hour neither promises nor threatens too much.
00:15:09.820 In the beginning, my experiences with psilocybin and LSD were so positive that I did not see
00:15:14.360 how a bad trip could be possible.
00:15:16.920 Notions of set and setting, admittedly vague, seemed sufficient to account for my good luck.
00:15:21.660 My mental state was exactly as it needed to be.
00:15:25.160 I was a spiritually serious investigator of my own mind, and my setting was generally one
00:15:29.900 of natural beauty or secure solitude.
00:15:32.960 I cannot account for why my adventures with psychedelics were uniformly pleasant until they
00:15:37.660 weren't, but once the doors to hell opened, they appeared to be left permanently ajar.
00:15:43.040 Thereafter, whether or not a trip was good in the aggregate, it generally entailed some
00:15:46.580 excruciating detour on the path to sublimity.
00:15:49.080 Have you ever traveled, beyond all mere metaphors, to the mountain of shame and stayed for a thousand
00:15:55.060 years?
00:15:56.180 I do not recommend it.
00:15:58.360 On my first trip to Nepal, I took a rowboat out on Pua Lake in Pokhara, which offers a
00:16:03.080 stunning view of the Annapurna Range.
00:16:05.520 It was early morning and I was alone.
00:16:07.980 As the sun rose over the water, I ingested 400 micrograms of LSD.
00:16:12.240 I was 20 years old and had taken the drug at least 10 times previously.
00:16:16.640 What could go wrong?
00:16:17.440 Everything, as it turns out.
00:16:20.420 Well, not everything.
00:16:21.580 I didn't drown.
00:16:23.100 I have a vague memory of drifting ashore and being surrounded by a group of Nepali soldiers.
00:16:28.120 After watching me for a while as I ogled them over the gunwale like a lunatic, they seemed
00:16:32.240 on the verge of deciding what to do with me.
00:16:34.600 Some polite words of Esperanto and a few mad oar strokes, and I was offshore and into oblivion.
00:16:40.320 I suppose that could have ended differently.
00:16:42.080 But soon there was no lake or mountains or boat, and if I had fallen into the water, I'm
00:16:47.700 pretty sure there would have been no one to swim.
00:16:50.260 For the next several hours, my mind became a perfect instrument of self-torture.
00:16:54.680 All that remained was a continuous shattering and terror for which I have no words.
00:16:58.560 An encounter like that takes something out of you.
00:17:02.300 Even if LSD and similar drugs are biologically safe, they have the potential to produce extremely
00:17:07.320 unpleasant and destabilizing experiences.
00:17:10.540 I believe I was positively affected by my good trips and negatively affected by the bad
00:17:14.680 ones for weeks and months.
00:17:17.120 Meditation can open the mind to a similar range of conscious states, but far less haphazardly.
00:17:21.860 If LSD is like being strapped to a rocket, learning to meditate is like gently raising
00:17:26.760 a sail.
00:17:28.140 Yes, it is possible, even with guidance, to wind up someplace terrifying, and some people
00:17:32.380 probably shouldn't spend long periods in intensive practice.
00:17:35.400 But the general effect of meditation training is of settling ever more fully into one's own
00:17:40.120 skin and suffering less there.
00:17:42.540 As I discussed in The End of Faith, I view most psychedelic experiences as potentially misleading.
00:17:47.280 Psychedelics do not guarantee wisdom or a clear recognition of the selfless nature of
00:17:52.540 consciousness.
00:17:53.620 They merely guarantee that the contents of consciousness will change.
00:17:57.360 Such visionary experiences appear to me to be ethically neutral.
00:18:00.940 Therefore, it seems that psychedelic ecstasies must be steered toward our personal and collective
00:18:05.160 well-being by some other principle.
00:18:07.600 As Daniel Pinchbeck pointed out in his highly entertaining book, Breaking Open the Head, the
00:18:12.160 fact that both the Mayans and the Aztecs use psychedelics while being enthusiastic practitioners
00:18:17.180 of human sacrifice, makes any idealistic connection between plant-based shamanism and an enlightened
00:18:23.020 society seem terribly naive.
00:18:25.540 As I discuss elsewhere in my work, the form of transcendence that appears to link directly
00:18:29.920 to ethical behavior and human well-being is that which occurs in the midst of ordinary
00:18:34.240 waking life.
00:18:35.660 It is by ceasing to cling to the contents of consciousness, to our thoughts, moods, and desires, that we make
00:18:41.700 progress.
00:18:42.840 This project does not in principle require that we experience more content.
00:18:46.520 The freedom from self that is both the goal and foundation of spiritual life is coincident
00:18:51.980 with normal perception and cognition, though admittedly this can be difficult to realize.
00:18:57.100 The power of psychedelics, however, is that they often reveal, in the span of a few hours,
00:19:01.180 depths of awe and understanding that can otherwise elude us for a lifetime.
00:19:05.720 William James said it about as well as anyone.
00:19:07.580 One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever
00:19:13.000 since remained unshaken.
00:19:15.040 It is that our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but
00:19:19.240 one special type of consciousness.
00:19:21.460 Whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness
00:19:26.980 entirely different.
00:19:28.580 We may go through life without suspecting their existence, but apply the requisite stimulus and
00:19:33.540 at a touch they are there in all their completeness.
00:19:36.480 Definite types of mentality, which probably somewhere have their field of application and
00:19:40.820 adaptation.
00:19:42.100 No account of the universe in its totality can be final, which leaves these other forms
00:19:45.920 of consciousness quite disregarded.
00:19:48.140 How to regard them is the question, for they are so discontinuous with ordinary consciousness.
00:19:53.040 They may determine attitudes, though they cannot furnish formulas, and open a region, though
00:19:57.080 they fail to give a map.
00:19:58.260 At any rate, they forbid a premature closing of our accounts with reality.
00:20:03.980 I believe that psychedelics may be indispensable for some people, especially those who, like
00:20:08.740 me, initially need convincing that profound changes in consciousness are possible.
00:20:13.640 After that, it seems wise to find ways of practicing that do not present the same risks.
00:20:18.760 Happily, such methods are widely available.
00:20:28.260 Until next time, I believe, because the