Making Sense - Sam Harris - #144 — Conquering Hate

00:00:00.000 Today I'm speaking with Dia Khan.

00:00:02.800 Dia is a two-time Emmy Award-winning and twice BAFTA-nominated documentary film director.

00:00:09.120 She is the founder of FUSE, that's F-U-U-S-E, a media and arts company that puts women and 0.89

00:00:16.760 minority communities at the heart of telling their own stories.

00:00:20.280 In 2016, she became the first UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Artistic Freedom and Creativity.

00:00:27.020 She's made at least three films to date, Banah's A Love Story, Jihad, and White Right, Meeting

00:00:36.040 the Enemy.

00:00:37.400 And we talk about the last two, Jihad and White Right. 0.97

00:00:41.640 You really have to see her films.

00:00:45.100 Dia is doing something truly extraordinary.

00:00:48.460 She's doing something extraordinary as a person, even more than as a filmmaker.

00:00:52.280 Now, you'll hear in the second half of this podcast, in the last hour or so, that we don't

00:00:58.800 agree about everything.

00:01:00.940 There's definitely some daylight between how she views the collision between Islam and the

00:01:05.040 modern world and the way I view it.

00:01:07.000 And she clearly doesn't fully align with my friends Majid and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

00:01:12.100 So there is a further conversation to be had on that front.

00:01:15.180 But I hope you'll view the exchange we did have there as a model for the kind of conversation

00:01:24.260 that millions of people could and should be having about these issues.

00:01:30.700 Unfortunately, audio quality for this podcast is a little spotty.

00:01:34.580 There were a few sound problems on her side.

00:01:36.920 It's not too bad, but it goes in and out at a few points.

00:01:40.280 I think it's worse in the beginning.

00:01:41.300 So apologies for that.

00:01:44.740 In any case, I love this conversation.

00:01:47.440 I think Dia is fantastic.

00:01:50.760 If you watch White Right, you will understand why I think so.

00:01:56.820 Disagreements aside, I now bring you Dia Khan. 0.53

00:02:06.680 I am here with Dia Khan.

00:02:08.640 Dia, thanks for coming on the podcast.

00:02:10.000 Thank you for having me.

00:02:11.920 I know I mispronounced your last name.

00:02:14.360 How do you say Khan when you're not an American who can't pronounce Middle Eastern names?

00:02:18.700 You know, that's not bad, actually, Khan. 0.99

00:02:20.480 I mean, the only difference I would say is Khan. 0.76

00:02:23.700 It's a ha.

00:02:24.680 But I mean, Khan. 0.74

00:02:25.880 I mean, most people say that.

00:02:27.060 So not bad.

00:02:28.580 Okay.

00:02:29.000 Well, it is great to meet you by phone, essentially.

00:02:33.040 We're over the internet.

00:02:34.380 And you've explained to me that there's some explosions in the background.

00:02:37.420 You're not in a war zone.

00:02:38.420 What's going on?

00:02:39.660 I'm not.

00:02:40.580 It's Guy Fawkes night.

00:02:42.620 So there's a lot of fireworks happening.

00:02:45.740 But it should calm down, I think, in another hour or so.

00:02:49.480 Okay.

00:02:50.300 Well, as long as you're safe.

00:02:51.680 That's all we care about.

00:02:54.060 Absolutely.

00:02:54.500 So you and I actually have met over the phone.

00:02:58.420 You might be aware of this, but these were less than auspicious circumstances.

00:03:02.400 I think you were in the room for my ill-fated conversation with Mariam Namazi.

00:03:07.460 Do I have that right?

00:03:08.120 I was.

00:03:08.320 That's correct.

00:03:08.960 Yes.

00:03:09.340 Because I did a film.

00:03:10.560 Yeah.

00:03:10.780 When was it?

00:03:12.260 Was this a couple of years ago now, I think?

00:03:15.380 Yeah.

00:03:16.180 Yeah.

00:03:16.340 So I did a film about apostasy and basically, you know, young people that are leaving Islam,

00:03:22.560 both in England, but also in other countries, and just what their experiences are like.

00:03:27.020 And then also the kind of support or lack of support that they find within the Muslim community.

00:03:31.660 And then organizations like Mariam's, the Council of Ex-Muslims, that provide that much-needed 1.00

00:03:38.160 support for these young people.

00:03:40.660 So I was following Mariam a lot around that time.

00:03:43.040 And then, you know, obviously you guys had your conversation.

00:03:45.420 I also happened to be in the room and eventually just turned off the camera.

00:03:50.520 Yeah.

00:03:50.800 Yes.

00:03:51.160 That's good.

00:03:52.040 Yeah.

00:03:52.240 No, I haven't seen the footage of that, but I experienced my side of the conversation

00:03:55.360 firsthand.

00:03:55.980 And I can only say you were very briefly a friendly voice on the line, and then I was

00:04:02.240 delivered into Mariam's hands.

00:04:05.380 And we had what many view as perhaps my least successful podcast.

00:04:11.300 It certainly was in the top three, but it was kind of bewildering because we agree about

00:04:16.600 many things, but we got bogged down on debating open borders and just couldn't get back to dry

00:04:22.320 land after two hours.

00:04:23.980 That was a shame because I think that, you know, I think you have a lot in common, actually.

00:04:29.280 And what was a bit frustrating for me being a listener was it just felt as if you were both

00:04:35.560 sort of talking past each other.

00:04:38.100 And, you know, that's always just sort of sad and a waste when that happens.

00:04:45.020 Well, I am virtually certain you and I won't have that problem.

00:04:47.900 Having watched your two, I think your two most recent films that are available on Netflix,

00:04:54.740 Jihad and White Right, I'm just so amazed at what you're doing and such a huge fan.

00:05:00.880 And I just hope everyone watches these films.

00:05:05.080 Our conversation will be absolutely no substitute at all for actually seeing them.

00:05:10.240 So you just have an enormous fan in me and I just want to talk about what you're doing

00:05:16.420 as a filmmaker.

00:05:17.460 That's very kind of you.

00:05:18.420 Thank you.

00:05:18.980 I really appreciate that.

00:05:20.120 It's, you know, when you do your work and, you know, you're so, I mean, film is such a

00:05:25.760 sort of obsessive, really long, really hard process.

00:05:30.300 And it's just hard for me to look up from the work that I do because it just is so all-consuming.

00:05:37.140 So when people finally see the work and then the responses to the work is always, you know,

00:05:42.440 it's touching and confusing and, you know, quite amazing for me to realize that other

00:05:48.280 people have a relationship to the work that I do, you know, because for me, it's a matter

00:05:51.640 of just sort of satisfying my own curiosity, really, is what the films are an exercise in.

00:05:57.980 Yeah, I mean, it's got to be something more than curiosity here, though, because what you've

00:06:02.340 done here is you're kind of responding to a moral emergency in both films and putting

00:06:08.900 yourself on the line in a way that really seems unusual for a filmmaker.

00:06:14.080 So before we jump into each film, just tell us a little bit about your background.

00:06:19.800 How do you come to be dealing with these topics?

00:06:22.920 And I was surprised to learn you grew up in Norway, which you betray seemingly no evidence

00:06:28.500 of.

00:06:28.960 So who are you and where did you come from?

00:06:31.600 Well, you are right.

00:06:33.020 I was born and raised in Oslo, Norway.

00:06:36.100 Come from a Muslim family.

00:06:38.820 My father is Pakistani.

00:06:39.920 My mother is Afghan.

00:06:41.520 Very, very liberal.

00:06:42.880 Very, I would say, sort of an eccentric family in the sense that we had lots of artists and

00:06:49.520 activists and in the house when I was growing up is some of my earliest memories of, you

00:06:54.740 know, just sitting and playing on the carpet when my father and my mother would be entertaining

00:07:00.240 and having conversations about politics and about human rights and about theater and about

00:07:05.220 music and with feminists and with activists and human rights defenders from that part, from

00:07:11.700 their part of the world.

00:07:12.720 So I sort of grew up understanding that that's what life is like.

00:07:19.500 That's what, you know, Muslim women are like even. 1.00

00:07:23.560 But sort of my dad is a bit of a strange guy.

00:07:26.600 He had a lot of experiences of racism in Norway.

00:07:31.400 And one of the things that he had in his mind was that the only way you can get past that

00:07:37.620 is, and he gave me this lecture when I was actually quite warm.

00:07:41.240 And he said, look, there are only two professions in the world where your race won't matter, 0.94

00:07:46.140 your gender, your religion, your background won't matter. 0.79

00:07:49.200 If you work harder than everybody else and you remain patient and just stick to it, then

00:07:55.580 eventually you'll, you know, be able to do well in life.

00:07:59.840 And one is sports and the other person is within the arts and particularly music is what

00:08:06.120 his love was.

00:08:06.940 And so at the age of seven, he basically decided that my profession was going to be music.

00:08:12.400 So I started studying music and this was North Indian and Pakistani classical music that I

00:08:17.320 studied from the age of seven.

00:08:19.160 Very, very rigorous training.

00:08:21.120 Very, I mean, my dad was wonderful, but also a very strict, very harsh person when it came

00:08:27.100 to commitment to music.

00:08:28.840 And I always sort of joke about this, that, you know, my dad didn't, you know, arrange

00:08:33.820 my marriage or anything like that, but he, you know, he chose my profession for me.

00:08:38.120 Anyway, in Norway, I very quickly started doing public performances, both on TV and at music

00:08:44.640 festivals and various places and sort of became, I would say, this mascot for multicultural Norway.

00:08:52.040 You know, this little strange girl who was doing this strange sort of music and kind of

00:08:57.040 a symbol of how well Norway was doing with all of its sort of quote unquote new arrivals 1.00

00:09:02.500 from all around the world.

00:09:03.860 And everyone felt very good about themselves and patted themselves on the back.

00:09:07.200 But as my success continued, I started getting more and more negative reactions as well from

00:09:13.520 two sides.

00:09:14.280 One side was saying, you know, what is this little, basically Paki, which is a derogatory

00:09:19.840 term for people from Pakistan and South Asia, doing on our TV all the time, you know, send 0.92

00:09:25.680 the, you know, people like this, you know, they need to piss off back home.

00:09:28.840 And then the other side that I started also getting abuse from was from my parents' community. 0.76

00:09:34.660 And the Muslim community in Norway is actually quite small, but harassment from that side also

00:09:39.280 started getting very, very intense to the point where by the age of 17, I had to pack

00:09:47.040 my bags by a one-way ticket to London and left.

00:09:51.520 So it was sort of exiled from Norway, which is, which is strange in a way because a lot

00:09:55.920 of people leave difficult countries in search for safety in Norway.

00:10:00.960 But for me, it was, it was in the opposite.

00:10:03.900 Well, let me just see if I understand here.

00:10:05.480 So you're, you had a very liberal Muslim family and it sounds like you didn't escape all of the, 1.00

00:10:11.780 the Southeast Asian kinds of pressure one can get from one's family, but it was directed

00:10:17.200 toward music rather than religion or conservative social norms.

00:10:21.140 And so you're being a, a, a female performer put you on the radar of religiously conservative 1.00

00:10:27.940 people who then made your life miserable.

00:10:30.260 Is that?

00:10:30.520 Yes.

00:10:30.880 Yes.

00:10:31.220 And, and, and, and their, their reasoning was that they consider music to be unacceptable.

00:10:37.760 They consider music, they, they, they consider music to be a very low profession, a profession 0.89

00:10:42.680 that is engaged with by prostitutes and, and dishonorable people. 0.92

00:10:48.800 And people would often say, you know, you come from a good family, you know, why are you 0.95

00:10:53.300 engaging in such a, such a immoral and dishonorable profession?

00:10:58.020 And I remember, I think I was, you know, 11, 12 years old and, you know, we used to have

00:11:01.660 these sort of delegations of men would come to our house and try to talk sense into my

00:11:06.480 father saying, you know, we don't even allow our boys to engage in this profession.

00:11:10.140 What are you doing dragging your girl into this?

00:11:12.480 And he was, he would always show them the door.

00:11:14.460 He would never care.

00:11:15.540 And he would always say, look, this is my daughter, my decision.

00:11:19.800 And, and, you know, you people just, you leave, you, you, you get, you have no jurisdiction

00:11:24.520 over her.

00:11:25.160 And my grandfather on my father's side also lived in Norway.

00:11:29.120 He was one of the first immigrants from Pakistan to, to come to Norway to work.

00:11:33.460 He's very, very, very religious, very conservative.

00:11:37.040 He helped build several of the mosques in Norway and very loved and respected in Norway.

00:11:41.860 So, you know, so when people had, um, when they struggled with my father, then they would

00:11:45.640 go to my grandfather saying, look, she's bringing shame on the entire community. 1.00

00:11:49.520 She is leading our girls astray by showing them that, you know, they can do things like this. 1.00

00:11:55.160 And this has to, this has to stop, you know, stop him.

00:11:58.200 And he wasn't able to do that.

00:11:59.420 And then eventually, you know, people started coming to me in the streets of, of, of Oslo.

00:12:04.080 You know, people pulled knives on me.

00:12:06.620 I was sat on, I was attacked at my own concerts.

00:12:09.960 People tried to abduct me from my own schools.

00:12:12.320 It became very, very difficult.

00:12:14.120 And you're a teenager at this point.

00:12:15.480 Yeah.

00:12:16.080 Yeah.

00:12:16.660 And, and, you know, my, my, my mother always gets really upset whenever she thinks about

00:12:22.400 this, you know, cause she, she's, she's like, you know, cause I remember when we made the

00:12:27.580 decision, you know, she was sitting at the kitchen table and she sat me down and she said,

00:12:31.200 look, do you understand that we can no longer protect you?

00:12:35.180 Do you understand that we can no longer keep you safe and that you're going to have to go?

00:12:38.500 And I remember going, yes, I do understand that.

00:12:40.960 And, you know, and my heartbreak sort of at the time was, I mean, obviously I was afraid

00:12:46.040 of what was going on.

00:12:47.860 And also, you know, I was afraid for my family because they were, you know, they stood by

00:12:52.100 me and, and they paid a heavy price for that.

00:12:55.000 You know, they were completely isolated and sort of pushed out by, by the rest of the community.

00:13:00.700 But, but, you know, they still, they still chose me instead of the community.

00:13:05.700 And, but I remember her just, you know, having to send her, her child away, you know,

00:13:10.600 and, and still to this day, she gets really, really sad when she thinks of that time, you

00:13:15.200 know, and my brother lost his sister, you know, I mean, we didn't have means of communicating

00:13:20.660 like this back then.

00:13:21.740 So it was really hard.

00:13:22.820 You know, I left my career, left my friends, left my life, left my family, left everything

00:13:27.820 behind.

00:13:28.800 So it was hard.

00:13:30.420 As you pointed out, it's, it's amazing that you had to leave a Western society.

00:13:34.800 Yeah.

00:13:35.240 This is not leaving Pakistan or Afghanistan.

00:13:37.200 Which would be understandable, you know, but, and, and, and I think, you know, the,

00:13:41.120 the, the heartbreak for me was my exit was a very public exit.

00:13:45.940 You know, it wasn't something that sort of happened in secret.

00:13:48.420 It, it, it was, you know, sort of plastered across the, the, excuse me, the national newspapers

00:13:54.000 in Norway saying that I'd been threatened out of Norway and all of this.

00:13:57.760 And my, my kind of just sorrow at the time, sort of, you know, in, in the mind of a 17 year

00:14:02.700 old was, you know, I, that no one said anything, nobody said that, hold on, this is wrong.

00:14:09.100 And I remember kind of my way of thinking at the, again, you know, as a 17 year old

00:14:13.180 was, you know, I couldn't help but feel if I would have been blonde and blue eyed, would

00:14:18.780 people have behaved differently?

00:14:20.920 Would they have treated me differently?

00:14:22.100 And would there have been any kind of outrage then instead of just quietly letting me go

00:14:27.520 like that?

00:14:28.520 And, and I always sort of say this, but, but I really felt like, you know, at the airport

00:14:33.700 where you have, you know, there's always that one suitcase that keeps, you know, going round

00:14:38.280 and round on the baggage carousel that nobody comes to claim that suitcase felt like that.

00:14:43.700 I felt like I didn't belong to, to the Pakistani community.

00:14:46.820 And I felt like I didn't belong to my country, you know, and, and that was a very painful,

00:14:53.180 very, very difficult feeling to carry as a 17 year old, because you, you, you don't feel

00:14:58.360 like you've done anything wrong.

00:14:59.500 I did everything right.

00:15:00.620 I was obedient to my father's dream.

00:15:03.180 You know, I, I worked really hard, you know, and, and, and this is what you end up with is,

00:15:08.220 is just loneliness and, and just a sense of deep, deep loss, you know, wandering the streets

00:15:15.120 of London, having no idea what to do or who you are or, or, or how you rebuild your life.

00:15:21.180 So, I mean, this is a very long answer to your question.

00:15:25.220 No, no, it's good to get your, your backstory here.

00:15:28.100 But ironically, so you, you, you go to London, which is also a center of Islamist and jihadist 0.85

00:15:35.560 extremism.

00:15:36.400 I, you know, I often think of it as being one of the worst in the West in terms of, you know,

00:15:42.060 your, your exposure to a, a radicalized community.

00:15:45.680 I guess you, nobody knew who you were when you arrived, but just based on, on your own films,

00:15:51.180 you're, you're kind of out, out of the frying pan into the fire, aren't you?

00:15:55.400 Yeah.

00:15:55.640 Well, well, well, yes and no, because, I mean, the reason I chose London is because, you know,

00:16:02.140 I'd been here at the age of 12 and, and growing up in Norway, I always felt like, you know,

00:16:06.080 this strange sort of dark child in, in the sea of the blonde and the blue eyed.

00:16:10.640 So always, you know, had this feeling of never quite fitting in, never quite being sort of

00:16:15.220 enough for, for either side, not being Norwegian enough, not being Pakistani enough, you know, 0.99

00:16:20.680 and, and then the fact that you're a girl on top of it, you know, just adds all those,

00:16:24.680 that extra baggage.

00:16:25.960 But coming to the UK when I, I remember when I was 12, I, I, I loved it because I could

00:16:30.500 suddenly see people who looked like me and, and I suddenly felt like I didn't stand out

00:16:34.660 in that way.

00:16:35.980 And that's one of the reasons I chose that instead of, instead of the US, for example,

00:16:41.460 but where, but also US was too far.

00:16:43.340 But anyway, I think, you know, to a huge extent, London is a symbol and an example of how sort

00:16:52.700 of diverse cultures can coexist beautifully through, through some of the art and the music

00:17:00.400 and the, the, the foods and, and the friendships and, and, and the, the kind of life that you

00:17:05.440 see a lot of people leading.

00:17:07.560 But then of course, there is a flip side to that as well, that where you also see people

00:17:12.640 on the margins of, of, of the society and these various communities also, obviously, you

00:17:17.140 know, edging farther and farther towards violence and farther and farther towards separate

00:17:21.060 division and fear of each other.

00:17:23.520 So, so yes, it's a difficult place in some ways, but in other ways, it's also actually quite

00:17:29.180 successful, which I think we don't really get to talk about or see very often, you know,

00:17:33.360 when it comes to, you know, feminists within, from, from the Muslim context, or it comes

00:17:37.820 to robustly addressing some of the, the challenges that we face within various minority communities.

00:17:43.760 I've seen that engagement in, in, in a much more impressive, robust form in, in, than I've

00:17:52.880 seen anywhere else.

00:17:53.780 So I think a lot of the solutions also reside in England as much as the problems.

00:17:59.180 You must know my friend Majid Nawaz.

00:18:01.580 Have you crossed paths with him?

00:18:03.760 I have met him.

00:18:04.520 Yes.

00:18:05.260 Yeah.

00:18:05.600 Do, do you, do you align with his reform efforts at all?

00:18:08.940 Or do you, is there daylight between how you come at this and how he does?

00:18:13.360 I, I, I don't know enough about the, the, the reform effort, but, but the little that

00:18:18.720 I do know, I don't think that we, we, we align.

00:18:22.220 I mean, I, I, I understand and respect some of the work that he's doing, but I think on

00:18:27.460 the reform side of things, it's, it's, I don't particularly see how that's effective,

00:18:32.840 to be quite honest.

00:18:34.120 I think people practice and manifest their, their religiosity in, in a multitude of ways

00:18:41.220 everywhere.

00:18:42.340 And I think that's where the key is.

00:18:45.260 I, I don't think a kind of top-down, a kind of a choreographed reform is, is really needed.

00:18:52.520 I, I think, well, actually, can you explain to me what, what you understand he is doing?

00:18:59.300 And maybe I'm misunderstanding and then, then I can.

00:19:01.400 Yeah, yeah, well, basically he's, he, I mean, he's not cast himself as a theologian at all.

00:19:07.900 In fact, the, the theologian that he relies on most of the time is, is in your film, Jihad,

00:19:13.920 Usama Hassan.

00:19:15.000 I don't know if he, if that film predates his association with Quilliam, but I think I'm,

00:19:20.420 I'm not mistaken about that.

00:19:21.520 That's the same person.

00:19:22.660 Yeah, the same one, yeah.

00:19:24.040 Yeah.

00:19:24.800 And, but, you know, Maja's argument is, is simply that actually following the line you just suggested

00:19:30.240 that given that there's so much diversity in how people practice Islam, the only answer

00:19:36.720 is a respect for secularism.

00:19:39.940 I mean, you just, you have to keep your version of the faith out of public policy and out of 0.92

00:19:46.660 law and everyone should be free to practice as they want insofar as their practice doesn't

00:19:53.260 infringe on the, the well-being of anybody else, but it's just, there is no solution that

00:19:58.520 gives you the one right version of Islam.

00:20:01.320 It's just, there has to be a, a, a truly robust commitment to secularism in the Muslim

00:20:08.260 world.

00:20:09.000 And so, so what is the purpose then?

00:20:11.180 So, so, so, so when we say that the, the, the reform initiative, what does that mean then?

00:20:16.820 Well, he actually does, he attempts to do many of the things that seem to have happened to

00:20:23.980 some of the subjects in your film, Jihad.

00:20:25.540 I mean, just, you have people who used to be Jihadists or used to be Islamists and, you

00:20:32.100 know, through some collision with modern values, they have relinquished their commitment to

00:20:38.980 that theocratic project.

00:20:40.900 And now they're far more liberal.

00:20:43.540 And I mean, that's what happened to Majid and that's what happened to some of the people

00:20:47.000 in your film.

00:20:47.540 And so the, the Quilliam Foundation just attempts to, to formalize how one goes about, you know,

00:20:54.400 reaching out to such people and changing their, their views on things.

00:20:57.640 So, I mean, he, he's just, Majid just finds himself in conversation with, with people like

00:21:03.060 many of the subjects in your film.

00:21:04.440 Maybe we should just jump into talking about Jihad because I actually want to spend most of 1.00

00:21:09.460 the time talking about your, your second film, White, Right, or not, not your second film,

00:21:13.980 but the second film I want to talk about, which is, which is about, you know, white supremacy

00:21:18.260 in the U.S. because it's just a, an amazing document you have produced there.

00:21:23.360 But let's start with Jihad because we're already talking about this. 0.76

00:21:26.420 So you're, you focus on this problem of religious extremism under the banner of Islam.

00:21:33.440 And the main figure in the film is somebody who I didn't, I don't know all that much about,

00:21:39.420 but Abu Muntasar, maybe introduce him and, and, and how, and how did you come to make

00:21:46.740 this particular film?

00:21:49.240 Well, so I wanted to try and understand, well, there were, there was a couple of things I

00:21:54.720 was trying to do.

00:21:55.380 One thing was that I wanted to understand why we were starting to see our young people

00:22:00.860 leaving the UK and other European countries and wanting to go to foreign battlefields.

00:22:07.700 So young Muslim kids who, who, you know, we would imagine have, have every reason to, 0.99

00:22:13.120 to want to live and want to just lead their lives as young people here instead of, of going

00:22:19.980 on these foreign battlefields.

00:22:21.020 So I was wanting to try and understand why is that?

00:22:24.280 Why would somebody do that?

00:22:26.360 And then the second reason, which was much more personal was after having all the experiences

00:22:31.820 that I've had in my life, I, I, I sort of got to a point in, in life where I was sort of

00:22:36.880 done being afraid and done hiding and done leaving country after country and wanted to

00:22:43.720 do something that I've never done, which is to sit down with the, with the kinds of men

00:22:48.080 that were the reason that I had to leave Norway, for example, and, and see possible for us to

00:22:53.160 sit across from each other and have a conversation just about life and, and, and about, and about

00:22:58.920 each other. And so I, I set out on that sort of search and then came across Abu Muntasir, 0.64

00:23:07.660 who basically is one of the, the, the sort of founding figures of recruiting young people

00:23:14.540 from the UK, of actually from America in the past as well, Denmark, Germany, across Europe,

00:23:21.260 recruiting young Muslims to go and fight on foreign battlefields. In his time, it was Afghanistan,

00:23:26.320 it was Bosnia, it was Chechnya, Kashmir. And then he subsequently also then inspired the,

00:23:34.020 this, this kind of trend of, of foreign fighters that we now have seen in recent years. And what

00:23:40.740 was really interesting in speaking to him is that, you know, he was saying that one of the biggest

00:23:45.580 differences between his era and what we're witnessing now is that when he was going over there,

00:23:51.600 because they were fighting against the Soviets, he said that they were considered, I mean, as we

00:23:59.220 already know, you know, they were considered to be performing a holy war that was of benefit to the

00:24:04.920 West. So the, so the West was encouraging it and, and, and supplying weapons to these guys and,

00:24:10.420 and providing other logistical support to the Mujahideen and the Jihadis basically. And, and he said,

00:24:17.640 obviously now the enemy has changed. So now this force is viewed as, as a, as a very negative one.

00:24:24.040 But anyway, the point about him is that he managed to sow these seeds of this movement and of this

00:24:32.100 trend that we now have seen blossom through, through the recent years. And, and he, by the time I got to

00:24:39.260 speak to him, he's completely renounced his actions. He utterly regrets everything that he's done.

00:24:45.740 And he has now completely dedicated every single moment of his life in trying to undo what he's

00:24:52.400 done, trying to, I mean, we spoke about forgiveness a lot in both in the film and also off camera. And,

00:25:00.300 and I think he is trying to get to a place where he can forgive himself for what he's, the damage that

00:25:09.000 he's caused. And I think that's why he's doing everything in his power now to try and work with

00:25:13.580 young people, both in prison, in the, in the community. And he's still very much a believer,

00:25:18.660 but has understood that his understanding or his way of expressing his faith at that point was,

00:25:25.240 you know, very misguided and, and something that he really, really feels a lot of pain about now.

00:25:33.240 Yeah. And that pain comes through. He breaks down at, I think at least twice in,

00:25:37.020 in interviews with you. And it's, it's really, it's quite mesmerizing to watch because he's,

00:25:42.860 you know, he's right out of central casting as, as somebody, he's exactly who you would think would

00:25:48.060 be the bad jihadist in your movie of the war on terror. And yet he has had a total change of heart.

00:25:55.980 And it's extraordinary. I mean, to me, I mean, I have to be honest, I started the film very,

00:26:01.320 very pessimistic. I mean, and, and I wasn't quite sure what I was going to find. I had a feeling that

00:26:05.960 I would just sit with these guys and that it would just be an uphill struggle and that we would never

00:26:12.480 agree on anything. And, and, you know, I've, I've been afraid of men like this most of my life and,

00:26:19.240 and to sit down with them and to be able to connect with them in the way that we did. And for them to

00:26:25.140 share as much with me as they did was really special. And, and I left the project far more

00:26:32.120 hopeful that change is possible. You know, it's, it's, no one is beyond redemption. No one is beyond

00:26:40.920 the recognition that I did something wrong. I think it takes a lot of courage for people to admit

00:26:46.420 that they did something wrong and, and, and wanting to try and do better, wanting to try and do something

00:26:51.800 different. And he gets a lot of, I mean, you know, he, he, after the film came out as well,

00:26:58.380 you know, he got a lot of negative reactions and the film did too, you know, because a lot of people,

00:27:04.680 some people, you know, who, who used to love him were saying, you know, you're a sellout and, 0.98

00:27:10.140 you know, how, you know, what a coward you are. And he says that in the film too, but the backlash 0.97

00:27:15.120 from sort of the rest of, you know, society was also very, very intense for him because,

00:27:20.580 you know, people want to see him hung. People want to see him, you know, dead for what he did

00:27:25.580 and don't see the value in, in where he stands today and what his sort of wisdom that he's arrived

00:27:32.440 at can contribute towards the younger people that now are going through some of the same

00:27:36.160 issues that he did, you know, and, and he was very different as a leader, as a recruiter.

00:27:41.820 He was very different than his followers is what I found, which I thought was quite interesting.

00:27:46.540 He was absolutely committed to the cause. He was very, very dedicated both to his faith,

00:27:52.020 but also to, to kind of the, the geopolitical realities at the time that he wanted to, to participate

00:28:00.300 or contribute in, in some way. Whereas his followers were much more driven by a sense of purpose,

00:28:07.660 a sense of belonging and, and kind of revering him as the father figure that they didn't have

00:28:12.900 in their life. And I just find that really interesting that the recruiters like him and

00:28:18.540 leaders like him are able to sort of take those feelings and redirect them into a political cause

00:28:27.180 and, and ultimately towards violence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the jihadi worldview is incredibly 0.99

00:28:34.620 compelling. You know, I often think of it as you get to be a spiritual James Bond, right? I mean,

00:28:40.860 not only do you get to organize all of your craving for meaning and profundity and otherworldliness

00:28:48.120 and whatever religious superstition you have on board, it has all of the, the satisfactions of

00:28:55.880 supercharged religion. But in addition to that, you as a testosterone poisoned young man get to join a 0.51

00:29:04.880 gang, right? And you get to channel all of your sexual repression and awkwardness and dissatisfaction 0.98

00:29:11.980 into this project of becoming a warrior for God. And it really, it just, it checks all of the boxes

00:29:20.920 in, in, in the male imagination and search for self-aggrandizement. And then if you believe

00:29:28.740 the doctrine, you're expecting an eternal reward, which is explicitly sexualized, right? I mean,

00:29:35.560 you're, you get to hang with virgins, with God forever. And it's, it really is like the, the,

00:29:43.040 in my view, the scariest possible set of memes to be spreading. But there's no mystery as to why it's

00:29:51.980 so compelling with a few basic assumptions, just, just, you know, assuming that paradise exists and

00:29:57.300 that martyrdom is the way to get there. But also, I think what's really interesting is, is the fact

00:30:02.080 that it's sort of emotional and psychological vulnerabilities is, is underlying a lot of this.

00:30:08.760 And, and, and the needs that these movements are satisfying for young men. I think what's

00:30:15.020 interesting about that is a lot that we can actually do something about. And one of the things

00:30:19.760 that I did find is that as much as, as, you know, these guys, you know, go on about religiosity and

00:30:26.220 that that's their, you know, that's their primary driver. And that's kind of the, I always call it sort

00:30:30.740 of the window dressing that they put on top of everything else. I did find that other than some of the

00:30:36.220 very, very committed guys, like recruiters, like the leaders, most of the followers were actually

00:30:42.200 not particularly religious, actually, and, and that they were far more driven by, you know, a sense

00:30:49.840 of alienation, you know, and, and, and sense of, and this is something that I found quite similar

00:30:55.440 actually between these guys and the white supremacists that I met is, is just this inability

00:31:00.540 to deal with shame and humiliation in their life, whatever the source of that might be, whether

00:31:06.320 it's an, you know, experiences of, of, of racism or abuse or trauma or, or, or whatever the specifics

00:31:12.460 might be, but just an inability to deal with that. And both, and all sort of extremist movements seem

00:31:18.300 to equalize whatever loss of, of manhood and masculinity, these, these, these men feel,

00:31:26.440 whatever emasculation they feel, this sort of equalizes. And like you say, sort of supercharges

00:31:31.480 it for you. And then also look at the rewards. I mean, nevermind the, the, the rewards in the

00:31:37.900 hereafter, but you know, look at the rewards that you get while you're here. Look at for someone who

00:31:43.440 feels invisible and powerless and insignificant. Suddenly everybody cares about you. Suddenly you

00:31:49.500 are on the front covers of every single newspaper. You're on every single newscast, the most important

00:31:55.020 men on the planet, you know, men at the time, like Obama has to now think about you and talk about

00:32:01.280 you and, and worry about you. I mean, that's extraordinarily intoxicating. And I mean, and so,

00:32:07.480 so I agree with you that, that the religiosity or religious aspects of it, that these guys,

00:32:13.380 you know, believe that they're, they're loyal to is of course, a part of the picture. And so is also,

00:32:20.100 you know, foreign policy. Cause when I started making the film, people were saying, Oh, you know,

00:32:24.220 my friends were going, you know, find out, you know, is it foreign policy grievances or is it

00:32:30.200 religion? And what I found is that, you know, obviously both are absolutely a part of the

00:32:35.960 cocktail, but what makes somebody get up and act on that? You know, I have a lot of, you know, I,

00:32:42.980 I was against the Iraq war. I have a lot of issues with, you know, American British foreign policy as

00:32:47.900 well, but there's a reason I pick up a camera and these guys pick up a gun. And I wanted to,

00:32:52.400 why do they, why are some Muslim men drawn to this? There are, you know, 1.6 or 7 billion Muslims

00:32:59.440 walking around the world right now. And if the only qualifier to, to be a terrorist or to be a

00:33:05.100 jihadi is to be a Muslim, then everyone would be dead by now. Right? So, so that's, that's not enough 1.00

00:33:11.420 of a qualifier either. So what, what underpins it? And I, so that was interesting to me is that it

00:33:17.880 was the psychological and emotional vulnerabilities that, that were very much the reason why some of

00:33:25.160 these guys are drawn to it and other people are not. And how cynically these movements and these

00:33:30.280 recruiters are targeting these vulnerabilities that young men have. I mean, they're actively looking

00:33:35.780 for these guys. I remember somebody saying to me during the course of making that film is, you know,

00:33:41.400 when, when ISIS was very, very active online, do you remember? There was a lot of online recruitment

00:33:46.620 going on. And, you know, what I found is that their recruiters would spend hundreds of hours with

00:33:54.240 young kids online, hundreds of hours. And, and you can only imagine, you know, some kid who, who is

00:34:01.720 disengaged from the rest of his life, you know, maybe, you know, is, maybe doesn't have the kind

00:34:07.460 of friendship circles or, or is struggling at home or is, you know, having some sort of expectations

00:34:12.420 in his life from his family or from his country that he's unable to sort of live up to. And then

00:34:18.700 you've got this person spending hundreds of hours on you, building loyalty, building friendship. I mean,

00:34:25.160 that's extraordinary. And same with Abu Mitzir, the men, the, his followers that I spoke to,

00:34:30.400 they would have died for him any day. They would have died for him in some ways before they would

00:34:35.620 have died for their faith. Right. Does that make sense? So, so that, that intensity of their

00:34:41.140 relationships within these groups, it cannot be underestimated, I think. Yeah. Well, it has a

00:34:46.980 cult-like structure, you know, it's just, you have a charismatic leader, you have various beliefs which

00:34:53.960 convey meaning intrinsically. I mean, you're talking about a person's place in the universe and what

00:35:00.080 happens after death and what, you know, what answer makes sense of every apparent injustice

00:35:07.300 and struggle and failure in this life. You know, it will all be rectified at a certain point.

00:35:14.340 It's interesting because to compare the two phenomenon, the phenomenon of jihadism and the

00:35:19.580 phenomenon of white supremacy, they have so much in common. And as you say, it's, you know,

00:35:23.300 the recruiting tactics are the same. The vulnerabilities of the young men in many cases are the same.

00:35:28.720 I think there are a few differences. I mean, religion is, is one part of it. I mean,

00:35:32.800 religion does show up in the white supremacist side as well because they, they have their own

00:35:38.600 Christian beliefs that they, they kind of graft on to their, their racism and xenophobia, but 0.66

00:35:43.800 it's not, it's clearly not as integral to white supremacy as religious belief is to jihadism.

00:35:50.560 I think some of them, it really is quite intensely. And that's why it, my, my, my head was sort of

00:35:56.880 wanting to explode when, when I was listening to some of the white supremacists and, and using some

00:36:02.300 of the same terminology saying, you know, and suddenly I'm a warrior for God. And I'm sitting

00:36:08.100 there going, Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm, this is like a repeat. This is the, you know,

00:36:12.420 the, the slogans and the flags are different and, and, you know, but, but it's the same guy.

00:36:17.560 And also having been on the receiving end of death threats from, from both.

00:36:22.020 Yeah. You get it from both. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have to say reading some of those threats,

00:36:27.240 it might as well be the same guy and, and what they say that they're going to do to somebody

00:36:31.220 like me, it's the same kind of stuff, you know, which is really interesting and telling,

00:36:36.880 I think. But of course there are differences as well, but I just find that the, the, the,

00:36:41.600 the type of personalities that are drawn to this seem to be very, very similar across.

00:36:47.560 Extremist groups. And also the tactics are very, very similar too.

00:36:51.560 Yeah. And also there's, there's honor culture at the back of both. I would, I would think that

00:36:56.380 the honor culture is a little more intense in the, the jihadist context, but still the, you know,

00:37:02.340 white supremacy drawing a lot of energy from Southern honor culture is, it's easy to see some

00:37:08.700 of the same dynamics there.

00:37:10.260 Yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, I mean, gender is a huge part of this, you know, and

00:37:14.320 I think, you know, the term toxic masculinity, I think is absolutely appropriate for both 1.00

00:37:19.500 as well. And both are sort of hopping on to, to a past, to a golden past, you know, when,

00:37:25.600 when, when everything used to be so much better and when it used to be great and, and, you know,

00:37:30.680 and they can be a part of, of ushering in that past, which includes, you know, bizarrely, you

00:37:37.280 know, putting women back into the home and into very, very severe and rigid gender roles. And, 0.66

00:37:42.840 and, you know, only to, to, you know, continue having either Muslim babies or, or white babies, 0.74

00:37:48.800 you know, it's, it's really interesting, all the, the similarities there.

00:37:53.500 It seems like in your encounters with your subjects in jihad, these were, I think, almost

00:38:02.120 to a man, people who had thought better of the whole project and had come out the other

00:38:07.200 side, at least to some significant degree. Was there, remind me, was there anyone in the

00:38:12.240 film who was just fundamentally hostile to you and, and a current jihadist or, or Islamist

00:38:19.540 whose, whose views were just antithetical to everything you were trying to talk about?

00:38:23.500 Well, there were a couple of guys who are active now, but, but, you know, being a Muslim woman

00:38:28.680 myself, it's even the most hardcore of men, hardcore, you know, fanatic jihadi types, you

00:38:35.860 know, many, many of them, depending on how you approach them, will, will find it difficult

00:38:41.320 to be hostile, just to be hostile. So, so there's this kind of strange courtesy thing. And since

00:38:50.500 I wasn't there to have a kind of an antagonistic conversation or to have, I wasn't really there

00:38:56.480 to have a fight, it actually went, for the most part, it went okay. But I was very clear,

00:39:03.480 you know, I mean, I am Muslim, but, you know, I don't cover my hair, you know, I come from

00:39:07.220 the background that I come from. And, and my, my sort of condition was that I'm, I, I come

00:39:13.120 as me, you come as you. And, and, you know, we both leave our baggage at the door and we

00:39:18.160 meet each other as, as just who we are. And that was fine.

00:39:22.020 Well, I must say you, you do bring out the best in your subjects. I mean, it's, I've been

00:39:25.600 describing you with reference to your, to the film on white supremacists as kryptonite for 0.57

00:39:31.660 white supremacists. It's just amazing the effect you have on these guys. So let's just pivot

00:39:37.100 to white right, which again, people just have to go see. It's on Netflix in the U S. Do you,

00:39:42.660 do you know whether it's globally available on Netflix?

00:39:46.100 No, it's not. It's, it's available in, where is it? In the U S and in the UK, I think. And

00:39:54.020 then in Australia and Canada, other places that there are, their own broadcasters are streaming

00:39:59.760 it online.

00:40:00.880 Well, people have to get their eyeballs pointed in the right direction and watch this,

00:40:06.680 this hour long film. So let's just talk about how you got into position to even shoot this

00:40:17.280 because you find yourself in Charlottesville just at the right time when all of this famously

00:40:23.140 goes off. How did you come to be in Charlottesville? And I mean, you, you must've just heard that

00:40:30.440 there was going to be a big demonstration and, and just assumed that would be a good thing to

00:40:35.060 film. Well, so I, so there, there, there's been several events at Charlottesville or rallies at

00:40:41.520 Charlottesville last summer. Excuse me. I went to the first one, which was, which was the KKK 0.91

00:40:47.540 was going to basically protest the, the, some of the statues being removed. So I went to that and it

00:40:54.820 was maybe about 40, 50 Klan people and what felt like at least a thousand counter-protesters.

00:41:04.020 And then there, some people were saying that actually there's going to be another rally coming

00:41:08.780 up in a couple of months. You know, are you coming to that? And I kept going, I don't know. I mean,

00:41:13.700 I, I don't, I barely even knew what Charlottesville was until that point. And then in the meantime,

00:41:20.600 so I went to that and then the entire process of trying to get people to speak to me was very,

00:41:27.380 as you can imagine, very, very difficult and very time consuming because most people that I

00:41:32.740 contacted were not interested in speaking to me because I explained again, I was very clear who I

00:41:37.740 am, what kind of background I have, what kind of politics I have, because I didn't want anyone to

00:41:41.640 feel like I was, you know, springing anything on them in person. I wanted them to know clearly this is

00:41:46.780 who I am and this is what I would like to do, which is to try and not necessarily speak about

00:41:51.200 the ideology, but try and find ways to discuss why people are drawn to these movements. So most of

00:41:59.880 them said, no, not interested. And one guy, which is, his name is Jeff Scoop, and he was the head of

00:42:07.560 the, he is the head of the National Socialist Movement, which is the largest neo-Nazi group in

00:42:12.840 America and one of the oldest ones. He wrote back and was not particularly interested. And, but I

00:42:19.460 thought, okay, well, at least he's, you know, not saying a complete no. So let me just push, I pushed

00:42:23.800 him for such a long time. And he finally said, okay, you get one hour, you come to where I live,

00:42:30.600 there's a specific motel, you come to that one hour and then you just leave. And I said, okay,

00:42:34.680 thank you. Fine. No problem at all. And five hours later, he says, uh, we're going to a rally,

00:42:42.600 which will be in Charlottesville and you are welcome to join us. And, and I said, wow, okay,

00:42:48.300 great. And then I actually flew to Detroit, which is where he is. And he drove and I sat in the car

00:42:55.140 with him filming for nine hours. He drove from Detroit to Charlottesville.

00:42:59.020 And, and you had one person in another cameraman or, or it was just me and my colleague, a producer

00:43:05.280 who also films and that's it. So it was the two of us in the car with Nazis basically for nine hours

00:43:11.980 talking about all kinds of very inappropriate stuff because nine hours is a very long time.

00:43:18.140 You get to find out who someone is after nine hours in the car. Yeah.

00:43:21.380 Oh my goodness. Absolutely. And, and, and he basically said, look, I guarantee your safety.

00:43:27.540 And, you know, you, you come, it'll be fine. And so the whole deal was that I'm going to

00:43:34.580 march with them. I'm, I'm going, I'm going to basically do whatever they do so that I can get

00:43:39.500 a chance to walk in their shoes and just see, you know, what happens. So as you can imagine,

00:43:44.680 you know, we pull up to these, uh, you know, different parking lots beforehand, all these various,

00:43:50.060 you know, white nationalists and all these various white supremacist groups are gathering

00:43:53.360 from all around America and there, and I'm the only Brown person and, and one of the very,

00:44:00.220 very few women, I mean, nevermind even Brown, but just even one of the few women there and 1.00

00:44:05.760 everybody just looks at me like, like, uh, I just, they want to like slip my throat or something.

00:44:13.660 It was absolutely horrendous. So even though Jeff had said, it's fine, you know, you know,

00:44:18.940 we'll look out for you. It's, it's, it's okay. It was horrible. And I kept pulled off by different

00:44:25.240 groups, you know, you know, who the F are you, you know, what are you doing here? You blah, blah.

00:44:29.760 Wow. And, and then, and then they also start saying, then Jeff also starts saying, you know,

00:44:34.420 uh, the Antifa. So the anti-fascists will also be, you know, counter protesting at the rally.

00:44:39.880 And, you know, we usually get into physical fights with each other. You know, sometimes there's,

00:44:44.940 there's been hammers that have come out and, and, and I'm just standing there going,

00:44:48.840 oh my goodness me, what have I just agreed to do?

00:44:53.420 Was this the point where you felt the least safe physically in, in making either of the two films?

00:44:59.760 Yes. Yes. But, but there were several instances in, in this film where I felt very, very, very unsafe.

00:45:06.680 I mean, this was just one of them. I mean, after, well, during the actual Charlottesville,

00:45:11.600 so, so, so I'm marching with them and they're chanting, you know, Jews will not replace us. 0.96

00:45:17.560 And they're chanting about deportations that they need to become the, the, uh, what, what is their

00:45:23.540 chant? Anyway, the, the, now we start the deportations and, you know, and I'm marching in

00:45:28.060 with these people. And then the local community of, you know, people from Charlottesville and the

00:45:33.680 counter protesters are shouting and screaming at us as well. And I'm trying to film in the middle of all

00:45:40.340 of this and I'm wearing a helmet and, and suddenly I get pepper sprayed because they were trying to

00:45:45.240 pepper spray somebody else. And it was just a mess. And it was terrifying when all the violence broke

00:45:51.300 out because the, the, the entire time, even before it turned into violence, the, the intensity of all

00:46:00.620 of these people, everybody was on edge and you could tell both sides were just raring to go at each

00:46:07.700 other. So when it, when it happened, it was just, it was really, really terrifying and managed to

00:46:13.380 anyway, get back safely to the, the, um, barely to the parking lot again. And then one of the guys

00:46:21.160 said, Oh, there's going to be this gathering afterwards and it's fine for you to bring cameras.

00:46:26.080 You can talk to some of the people there and said, okay, that's fine. So in the mountains of Virginia

00:46:30.040 somewhere, I off some dirt road in this compound was about 60, 70 guys there. And I remember talking

00:46:39.100 to my colleagues saying, okay, let's just get our cameras and go down. And he goes, no, look, let's,

00:46:43.500 let's just wait, keep the camera in the car. And if everything is okay, we'll come back and get the

00:46:48.800 camera. And I said, look, he said, it's fine. Let's just get it. He said, no, no, just let's wait. And you

00:46:53.680 start walking down this dirt road and the guys start gathering and start shouting and screaming

00:46:59.280 and cursing. I mean, I probably can't say this stuff. You can say whatever you want. Okay. But

00:47:04.300 you know, the fuck are you, you know, you fucking media. Are you a fucking Jew? Are you, I mean, 1.00

00:47:08.680 it just starts shouting and they can't even really see me yet, you know, put your fucking hands up. 0.99

00:47:12.940 And then they start bringing out weapons and some of them are topless and they've got bruises on their 0.99

00:47:17.380 body from, from earlier in the day. And they're drinking. I see lots of, you know,

00:47:21.200 fear in one hand and weapons in the other hand. And this isn't like, I mean, I'm not really used

00:47:25.960 to seeing that many weapons anyway, you know, coming from Europe, but this was stuff that I've

00:47:30.600 seen like in battlefields, like this wasn't handguns. These were massive machines and finally get down

00:47:37.740 there and they start getting in my face and start shouting. And what kind of a fucking Muslim are you? 1.00

00:47:42.120 Are you a Shia? Are you a Sunni? And I start chuckling a little bit going, what does that have to do with 1.00

00:47:45.900 anything? You know, and why is your fucking head not covered? What kind of a fucking Muslim 1.00

00:47:51.040 are you? And I'm going, Oh my goodness me. And I, and I remember looking, glancing at my phone 1.00

00:47:57.040 and cause they've got my, my colleagues circled as well and shouting.

00:48:00.840 But where are your Nazi friends at this point? Because at this point you've got, 0.61

00:48:04.020 you've got Nazi friends.

00:48:05.520 Yeah, no, so he's gone. So he, he, I suddenly, I can't see him and he's frantically looking for

00:48:10.080 whatever person had said it was okay for us to come. Cause he kept going in and be cool. It's,

00:48:14.260 you know, so-and-so said it's fine. It's fine. And so he kind of disappears and these guys are

00:48:19.180 smoking, you know, blowing cigarette in my face and, and, you know, and just, just, it's,

00:48:24.940 it was so frantic and more and more of them were coming and like getting in my face, like no space

00:48:32.060 between us at all. And, and I remember glancing at my phone and it says no signal. Right. Right.

00:48:37.840 And at that point I'm thinking, okay, they can put a bullet in my head and they can put me in the 1.00

00:48:42.000 ground right here in the middle of nowhere. And no one's going to find out. No one's going to know 0.99

00:48:47.420 because then everything starts running through my head going, I haven't told my colleagues

00:48:51.420 that I'm here. I haven't told my family, haven't told the TV channel, haven't told anybody

00:48:56.180 that I'm actually here. So if something happens to me, they'll know I'm gone, but they're not going

00:49:02.180 to ever, ever find me again. And finally the, the guy, Brian Culpepper is his name. He came and he

00:49:09.020 managed to negotiate our way out. So we've allowed to finally leave.

00:49:13.320 Oh, so he didn't actually negotiate your staying there and filming and, and.

00:49:16.720 No, he wasn't able to.

00:49:17.840 Breaking bread with those guys. Yeah.

00:49:19.280 No, because it got so hysterical and they were, I mean, they were cursing. I mean, it was,

00:49:24.200 the people were very, very riled up. And so finally left and my colleague is white. So it was just me 0.82

00:49:30.120 who's not like them. And I remember just, you know, immediately getting back to the motel and,

00:49:36.140 and, and, you know, writing my, my colleague, Joanne, and just saying to her, look, you know,

00:49:40.800 this is where I am. This is what I'm doing. Here's my mother's phone number. Here's my brother's

00:49:45.860 phone number. You know, if you don't hear from me every couple of days, you just need to,

00:49:49.540 you need to let them know, you know, but, but this was just one of many, many very unpleasant

00:49:55.820 experiences. At another place, I went to a training camp where I was allowed to film part of it and

00:50:01.000 then not another part. And I remember a guy sitting there with, again, gun, everybody's drinking,

00:50:07.920 everybody has guns out and he's, he's got his gun on his lap and he's holding it. And he's looking at,

00:50:12.600 just, just staring at me, not talking, just staring at me as I'm talking to other people.

00:50:16.980 And then finally he says, you know, the, the, the best thing about serving in Iraq and serving 0.99

00:50:22.860 in Afghanistan, he's a former soldier, he says, is getting paid to shoot ragheads like you. 1.00

00:50:28.900 I'm sitting there going, okay, that's, that's, that's great. That's, thank you. Okay. And just, 0.98

00:50:34.420 you know, my way away from there. And it's, it was just horrifying. And some other guy following me

00:50:40.380 around, you know, clearly on medication, also for a former soldier kind of twitching and kind of 1.00

00:50:46.360 glassy eyed, you know, I'm going to put a fucking bullet through your head. I'm going to put a 1.00

00:50:51.320 fucking bullet through your camera. Don't fucking film me. And I'm going, oh my goodness, I'm not 1.00

00:50:55.940 filming you. Stop following me.

00:50:57.760 Well, this is, this is amazing to hear because this is virtually none of this comes through in

00:51:03.260 your film. I mean, your, your film is a far more hopeful document. And now I'm, I'm beginning to

00:51:09.220 worry that it's, it's, it's a document for another world because the main import of your

00:51:15.160 film is you put a white supremacist in a room with Dia Khan and there's no, there's, there's no way

00:51:22.960 to maintain the white supremacy for very long under the, the empathic insistence of you as an

00:51:29.780 interviewer. No, but you saw that with, I mean, nevermind these guys, but you also see it in the

00:51:33.860 film with, with Richard Spencer and the Jerry as well. Yeah. I was going to, I was going to remark on

00:51:38.060 that difference because, so you have a few guys whose names escape me, but there's probably three

00:51:42.920 guys who you, who you seem to spend a lot of time with and each falls under your sway to a degree

00:51:49.660 that is frankly pretty adorable. And they're effectively deprogrammed of their white supremacy

00:51:55.400 in your presence based on questions you ask. And I got to say the fact that you are, you also happen

00:52:02.800 to be a beautiful woman can't have been irrelevant. The effect on the viewers, you, I basically felt

00:52:08.960 like I was watching three guys fall in love with you and encounter a level of cognitive dissonance

00:52:15.360 with their worldview that was just completely unsustainable. I don't know if you felt that

00:52:19.940 yourself, but it was just like, I mean, these, you're at your, when you get around to asking them,

00:52:25.180 so you mean to tell me you would want to deport me and you would think I should be stripped of my

00:52:30.120 rights. And each one of them is saying, no, no, well, no. I mean, I mean, and it's amazing. I mean,

00:52:36.100 these are amazing encounters you've captured on film. They are, but you're, you're, you did not

00:52:41.780 have that effect on Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor, it seems. And was that based on, on them

00:52:49.420 or the, or the, you had less access to them or how do you perceive the difference between those

00:52:54.120 encounters? Well, well, the, the, the men that I just spoke about that, these very kind of

00:52:59.140 vicious encounters, the, the, some of the men were one of the men who in the film leaves Brian

00:53:05.940 Culpepper. He saw me being treated like this. And part of his reason for leaving was that he couldn't

00:53:14.700 see me treated like this because he was starting to consider me to be a friend. And this was very,

00:53:19.260 so I think he started seeing his movement in a different light when he's seeing it relate to

00:53:24.620 his friend, somebody like me, whereas beforehand, you know, this hadn't really occurred to him.

00:53:30.540 It wasn't personal. It doesn't become personal, but when it comes to the Richard Spencers and the

00:53:36.000 Jared Taylors of the world, I did not get to spend as much time with, with them, but also I actually

00:53:42.380 find them to be more, more sort of sinister in many ways. I, you know, and, and also more dangerous.

00:53:48.220 I mean, the, the, what surprised me most about making this film actually was, was the very deep

00:53:54.080 difference between sort of the working class guys, or you say blue collar, don't you guys? And,

00:53:59.820 and these kind of this sort of suit and tie brigade of Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor and others like

00:54:06.140 them. And, and I mean, I found the kind of camaraderie and the, the, the kind of love between these

00:54:14.140 various groups really telling as well, because you see Richard Spencer treating his own followers with,

00:54:21.100 with a lot of contempt and a lot of disrespect, which I think is interesting. Whereas, you know,

00:54:25.780 Jeff and some of the Nazis that I spend time with, you know, they, for example, at Charlottesville,

00:54:31.540 you know, they were, when it, when the worst violence started happening, there were several cars that were

00:54:37.940 brought up to one of the areas to pick up all the leaders of the different groups. And Richard Spencer,

00:54:43.400 you know, was, was, you know, escorted off into a car and, and a lot of the other leaders. And Jeff

00:54:48.600 was actually one of the only guys who said, no, I'm going, and because their followers weren't able to

00:54:52.440 fit into the cars. So Jeff said, I'm going to walk back. So he walked back through all the counter

00:54:57.280 protests with the rest of his group because he didn't want to be separate in that way. So I think

00:55:02.760 that was really telling, but, but excuse me, but your question is why was my encounters with,

00:55:09.140 with those guys different? I think because their aim is something different and their reason for

00:55:14.420 being in the movement is something different. I think for, for the neo-Nazis that I spoke to,

00:55:19.160 a lot of it is about emotions. And whereas for the Jared Taylors and the Richard Spencers,

00:55:26.980 it's much more about ideology and it's much more about power. And I think it's also about

00:55:31.520 wanting access to more power. Whereas for the other guys, it's, it's just trying to regain some

00:55:38.340 sense of dignity and some sense of purpose and meaning and belonging and all the other words that

00:55:44.300 we said earlier about the previous film. So I think it's harder to get through, you know, a lot of

00:55:50.120 people who are deeply committed to an ideology, you know, they have a barrage of, of argumentative

00:55:55.840 tactics and, and their worldview is something that's been built over a long period of time.

00:56:01.620 And they've spent ages, cherry picking arguments and, and, and reading bias materials, you know,

00:56:07.360 to constantly reinforce their worldview and reaffirming and refining their arguments against

00:56:14.160 the other side. And I think Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor fit into that. Whereas the other guys

00:56:20.380 were able to sort of connect to my humanity and therefore also their own.

00:56:27.060 Yeah. The difference is really striking just, you know, as a viewer, it's when your, your Nazi 0.90

00:56:33.700 friends are warming up to you. It really, I mean, you know, adorable is not too strong a word. It was

00:56:38.360 really, you know, those were, it was very cute to see you just kind of cut through their worldview.

00:56:44.800 And the result is just superhumanizing and you feel compassion for these guys. And then to see

00:56:51.420 you walk into a room with Richard Spencer and he, he's got this kind of reptilian glare and he really

00:56:58.960 is a sinister guy who, I mean, there's just, there's no warmth and his own egocentricity and cruelty are

00:57:07.640 so obvious. I mean, the guy is just a colossal asshole, you know, so, you know, as a viewer, 1.00

00:57:14.960 you're sort of just, I just want you to get out of the room with him. You know, I just, I was 1.00

00:57:19.620 uncomfortable having you in his company, but when you went into these situations, your technique

00:57:26.700 as an interviewer is, it's really pretty interesting. Again, I'm, I'm, I'm aware that there's so much

00:57:33.080 happening off camera that I'm not seeing, but you're just really directly seeking to build

00:57:40.400 an empathic connection with someone. You're not arguing with them. You're not trying to give a

00:57:47.320 litany of reasons why they're wrong about anything. You're trying to understand them and then just

00:57:53.200 juxtapose the rapport that's being built by that just basic human communication with the fact that

00:58:00.900 they have a set of beliefs wherein you are branded as the, the other so irretrievably as to really

00:58:08.460 suggest that they, they should want to murder you or have someone else murder you. And at a certain

00:58:13.420 point, you just juxtapose those two facts. And in the cases of at least three of the guys, it proves

00:58:19.960 totally untenable. How did you think about your approach to this? Because it really, you really are

00:58:25.860 just putting yourself on the line in a, in a very interesting way. I think you have to, or at least

00:58:32.100 I feel like I had to, because, you know, I, I've, I've had experiences of racism most of my life.

00:58:39.300 And, and, you know, I, I, as a result, I've, I've been an anti-racist, anti-fascist campaigner most of

00:58:46.080 my life as well. And I've done sort of everything that, that you would imagine. I've gone to, you know,

00:58:50.840 anti-fascist protest. I've shouted at these guys. I have, you know, flipped them off. I have thrown

00:58:56.420 stuff at them. I have, you know, I've done all of that. And none of that really did anything. You

00:59:03.320 know, it's, it's the other thing that I was always told growing up, you know, is that just give it time

00:59:08.260 and, and these movements will just disappear. And, and it's true, you know, they, they sort of,

00:59:12.800 you know, reduce in size and, and in, and in noise. And, but then they come back, you know,

00:59:18.540 they never quite ever go away. And, and here we are today with, with sort of this resurgence again.

00:59:24.440 And so I, I just got to a point where I realized I, again, that I'm, I'm done being afraid of people

00:59:32.520 like this. And, and I, I need to try something that I've never done before, which is to sit down

00:59:37.960 and to listen and to see if it's possible for us, you know, seeming, seemingly enemies. I mean,

00:59:45.620 they're my enemy as much as I'm theirs in, in many ways. And to see if it's possible for us to build

00:59:50.420 a human connection and, and to work, work with that and use that as a starting point, not using

00:59:57.540 the ideology as a starting point. And that's very much the same with, with the jihadi side as well

01:00:02.260 is, you know, if it's possible for us to build human connections first, the ideology eventually

01:00:07.680 falls apart for most people, because it's always about something else. It's always about other human

01:00:14.240 needs that are not being met. And if you can acknowledge that, and if you can sort of sit

01:00:18.640 through that together, and I think a sincerity and a real wish to listen and not condemning people,

01:00:27.680 not, you know, it's very easy to condemn them. I have to say both sides, it's very, very easy to

01:00:32.480 condemn the jihadis and to condemn the white supremacists as well. And it's very, very satisfying.

01:00:36.500 I have to say, it feels great to condemn them, and to judge them. But it doesn't provide any

01:00:42.280 answers. And it doesn't provide any results. And I did not make the film with the hopes of

01:00:50.600 changing anyone or changing anyone's mind or anything like that. I purely made the film to

01:00:55.700 try and understand why people do the things that they do, why people believe the things that they

01:01:00.540 believe, and to see if it's possible for us to sit across from each other, just as human beings,

01:01:06.540 and use that as a starting point towards something, something else, just of greater understanding,

01:01:11.840 perhaps. So the fact that, you know, some of them started using words like friend, for me,

01:01:18.240 the fact that we were able to, you know, build a real relationship with each other of friendship was

01:01:25.320 absolutely shocking to me, and confusing, and something I never would have expected. If you

01:01:34.040 would have said to me a year ago, that I'm going to become friends with people like this, my goodness,

01:01:40.460 I would have laughed at you at first. And then secondly, I think I would have been offended that

01:01:46.160 you would think that I would do that, you know, and here we are, you know, and it's very, very strange,

01:01:53.920 but it does give me a lot of hope. And going back to the Richard Spencer and that kind of dynamic,

01:01:58.940 also, what's the biggest difference between him and some of these guys is, I spoke to these guys

01:02:04.720 alone. I spent a lot of time with them alone. Richard Spencer never was around me alone.

01:02:09.620 Yeah, that could be a big difference.

01:02:11.160 He always had his friends, he always had his, so that kind of dynamic of always wanting to sort of

01:02:15.820 show yourself as this, you know, whatever, you know, tough guy is very different. And the same

01:02:23.440 thing with the Nazis as well. All the difficult experiences that I had only happened when they're 0.93

01:02:28.260 all big groups, and the testosterone, and the anger, and the name calling, and all of that is

01:02:33.620 really intense and whipped up.

01:02:36.200 Maybe your superpower has only come out when you're one-on-one.

01:02:39.340 Yeah.

01:02:40.120 You're a superhero that has to get alone with her target.

01:02:43.340 Exactly. That's my superpower, yeah.

01:02:45.940 But it's nonetheless super. I mean, the effect is really, it really is pretty mesmerizing to watch.

01:02:51.100 I'm so touched by them. I have to say, you know, and Ken, one of the guys, you know,

01:02:57.080 that's the guy who was, you know, throwing the anti-Semitic flyers out of his window.

01:03:01.720 You know, he called me, because in the film, he doesn't leave. He uses the word friend for me,

01:03:06.480 but he doesn't actually leave. And in the film, I also asked him, I said, okay, so, you know,

01:03:10.500 what does this mean? You know, now, you know, going forward, what is this going to mean? And he said,

01:03:14.640 well, I think, you know, this opens me up to, you know, maybe speaking to other people who are

01:03:18.840 different to me. And he actually stayed true to that. He actually, he actually did do that. And

01:03:24.200 he ended up speaking to, after I'd gone, we kept in touch. And he was also, I mean, he was expelled

01:03:30.880 from his university. And I tried to help him with, with some of that. I think they were worried that

01:03:35.280 he was going to, you know, shoot there. I don't know.

01:03:37.660 Yeah. He had that photo that he posted on Facebook, I think.

01:03:39.960 Exactly. And I tried actually, I haven't really said this out loud before, but, but I tried

01:03:45.980 reasoning with some of the, you know, people at his university, some of the, the, the professors

01:03:52.000 to try and say that, look, I don't believe that he has it in him to do that. And, and somebody like

01:03:58.100 him at the crucial point where he stands in his life right now, the best place for him to be right now

01:04:03.320 is in, in, in, in the, in a space where he can continue his education. I think if you take that

01:04:09.340 away from him, then we do run a risk of, of him, you know, going over the edge, but he really needs

01:04:15.300 to continue learning and needs to be in an, in an environment of knowledge and, and people and

01:04:20.900 thinking and reading. Nevertheless, they kicked him out. And, and I understand that as well, but

01:04:26.320 anyway, he, he, there's a black pastor in his African-American pastor in his apartment complex

01:04:32.600 who he started talking to. And then this pastor invited him to his congregation, which is an all 0.99

01:04:38.840 black congregation. And then Ken goes there, talks about his past as a, as a Ku Klux Klan member and

01:04:45.560 currently as a neo-Nazi and his Venus and all of this. And the response to him was kindness and was

01:04:52.620 compassion. And, and, you know, people apparently came up and hugged him after and said, you know,

01:04:56.620 obviously we disagree with you and dislike, you know, what you stand for, but it takes a lot of

01:05:02.280 courage for you to come in here and say, and, and, you know, sort of speak in this way and to, you

01:05:07.120 know, put yourself out there like that. And that completely just unpicked everything for him. So he

01:05:14.300 called me months ago and said, look, Dia, I've completely left. I've left the ideology. I've left the

01:05:20.120 groups. I've left everything. And I'm so sorry. And he said, you know, the hate was eating me from

01:05:26.380 the inside. And he said, you know, I want to try and do better. And, and, you know, and it's, it

01:05:32.220 tells me that we can't really afford to give up on people, you know, people who seem like him. I mean,

01:05:39.640 he has a massive swastika, as you see in the film, you know, has a massive swastika tattooed on his

01:05:44.240 chest and a clan tattoo, utterly committed to, to his cause. And, you know, today he's, he's left.

01:05:51.620 And in the film, he says, oh, you know, but I'm never going to break bread with a, with a Jew. And, 0.99

01:05:55.680 you know, two or three weeks ago, I heard that that's exactly what he's done.

01:05:58.640 Oh, wow. Nice.

01:05:59.660 He's having his tattoo removed, you know, so it's, so there is hope. I'm not saying that,

01:06:04.600 you know, let's hug a Nazi and everything's going to be fine. But, but I, what, what I've learned 0.91

01:06:10.640 is that I think, you know, no platforming these people and, and, and completely just

01:06:17.820 rejecting them, I think feeds into their kind of story of victimhood. And as if, you know,

01:06:23.440 they are speaking some sort of forbidden truth. And I think if anything, we need to expose racism,

01:06:29.860 we need to challenge it and we need to, we need to confront it rather than allowing it to just

01:06:34.840 marinate in its own kind of madness, you know, and going back to the thing you were talking about,

01:06:40.560 you know, interviewing technique. I mean, I don't think I really have an interviewing technique

01:06:44.600 other than just, I think empathy is very important to me.

01:06:48.100 No, it doesn't seem like a technique. It just seems like a willingness to hold all of your judgment

01:06:54.300 in abeyance and make a connection with these people.

01:06:58.020 Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the, the, the judgment and the kind of feelings of self-righteousness for

01:07:03.440 holding all the right opinions and having all the correct, you know, politics and all of, you know,

01:07:07.280 all of that kind of stuff, I think is just counterproductive. I think it's, it actually

01:07:12.440 adds to the problem and, and, and adds to people's radicalization rather than not. And, and, you know,

01:07:18.760 in speaking with the jihadis who left, and then also with former violent neo-Nazis in this movement,

01:07:26.060 in this film, you know, what struck me after the fact is that what interrupted people's kind of

01:07:34.440 hatred and people's ideology is for someone who represents the other in their eyes to treat them

01:07:42.240 with dignity and with respect and with some level of kindness. And that doesn't immediately change

01:07:48.840 somebody, but that began the process of unraveling some of this in their minds. And, and that was just

01:07:54.680 as true for some of the jihadis as well. You know, for example, being treated by, you know, an American

01:07:59.720 nurse, for example, you know, so it's, so somebody doesn't suddenly become, you know, no longer a

01:08:06.300 jihadi, but, but again, human connection. And I think empathy. And I asked Jeff at the end of our

01:08:12.380 five hours, that was supposed to just have been one hour. I asked him, I said, look, why are you

01:08:17.760 sort of tolerating me? Why, why are you wanting to continue this conversation? And he said, he said,

01:08:25.060 I completely dislike what you say. I completely disagree with what you stand for and the world

01:08:30.620 that you want to live in. And he said, and I'll actively fight against it. And he said, but I

01:08:35.920 respect that you believe in something. And he said, I respect that you are sincerely an activist.

01:08:45.020 And he said, so that I can actually relate to. He said, everything that you stand for, you know,

01:08:50.720 is just kind of horrible to me. But I respect your sincerity.

01:08:55.500 Well, if memory serves, you made more progress with him than that.

01:08:59.340 Well, well, he is still the, the, the head of the, the, the Nazi party, though.

01:09:03.280 Really? But, yeah.

01:09:03.920 Wait, so, okay, Jeff, oh, it's Jeff.

01:09:06.280 Jeff is denied.

Making Sense - Sam Harris - December 07, 2018

#144 — Conquering Hate

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