#144 — Conquering Hate
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 9 minutes
Words per Minute
182.50125
Summary
Dia Khan is a two-time Emmy Award-winning and twice BAFTA Nominated Documentary Film Director. She is the founder of FUSE, a media and arts company that puts women and minority communities at the heart of telling their own stories. In 2016, she became the first UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Artistic Freedom and Creativity. She s made at least three films to date: Banah s A Love Story, Jihad and White Right, Meeting the Enemy. And we talk about the last two, Jihad and White Right. You really have to see her films to understand why Dia is doing something truly extraordinary as a person, even more than as a filmmaker. Now, you ll hear in the second half of this podcast, in the last hour or so, that we don t agree about everything. There s definitely some daylight between how she views the collision between Islam and the modern world, and the way I view it. And she clearly doesn t fully align with my friends Majid and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. So there s a further conversation to be had on that front, and I hope you'll view the exchange we did have there as a model for the kind of conversation that millions of people could and should be having about these issues. I love you, I really do. -Elliott. -A.K.A. -Majid. -Dia. -S.J. - A.E. - S.M. - M.E., E.N.D. - E.S. - D.E.? Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. If you like it, please tell me what you think of it? if you re a friend of mine, please leave me a review on Insta: and I ll be listening to it in the next episode of the podcast and I'll be looking out for you in the comments section. Thank you! -E.V. ( ) -M.B. -AYAN HADELLI - AYAN ( ) - B. M. E. (A.R. (S.E.) - SAVAGE ( ) ? ( ) ( ) AND M. A. LYNNE ( ) & M. DHAKE ( ) . (M. AVAILABLE IN THE NEXT EPISODE OF THE PODCAST? (PRODCAST)
Transcript
00:00:02.800
Dia is a two-time Emmy Award-winning and twice BAFTA-nominated documentary film director.
00:00:09.120
She is the founder of FUSE, that's F-U-U-S-E, a media and arts company that puts women and
00:00:16.760
minority communities at the heart of telling their own stories.
00:00:20.280
In 2016, she became the first UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Artistic Freedom and Creativity.
00:00:27.020
She's made at least three films to date, Banah's A Love Story, Jihad, and White Right, Meeting
00:00:37.400
And we talk about the last two, Jihad and White Right.
00:00:48.460
She's doing something extraordinary as a person, even more than as a filmmaker.
00:00:52.280
Now, you'll hear in the second half of this podcast, in the last hour or so, that we don't
00:01:00.940
There's definitely some daylight between how she views the collision between Islam and the
00:01:07.000
And she clearly doesn't fully align with my friends Majid and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
00:01:12.100
So there is a further conversation to be had on that front.
00:01:15.180
But I hope you'll view the exchange we did have there as a model for the kind of conversation
00:01:24.260
that millions of people could and should be having about these issues.
00:01:30.700
Unfortunately, audio quality for this podcast is a little spotty.
00:01:36.920
It's not too bad, but it goes in and out at a few points.
00:01:50.760
If you watch White Right, you will understand why I think so.
00:02:14.360
How do you say Khan when you're not an American who can't pronounce Middle Eastern names?
00:02:20.480
I mean, the only difference I would say is Khan.
00:02:29.000
Well, it is great to meet you by phone, essentially.
00:02:34.380
And you've explained to me that there's some explosions in the background.
00:02:45.740
But it should calm down, I think, in another hour or so.
00:02:58.420
You might be aware of this, but these were less than auspicious circumstances.
00:03:02.400
I think you were in the room for my ill-fated conversation with Mariam Namazi.
00:03:16.340
So I did a film about apostasy and basically, you know, young people that are leaving Islam,
00:03:22.560
both in England, but also in other countries, and just what their experiences are like.
00:03:27.020
And then also the kind of support or lack of support that they find within the Muslim community.
00:03:31.660
And then organizations like Mariam's, the Council of Ex-Muslims, that provide that much-needed
00:03:40.660
So I was following Mariam a lot around that time.
00:03:43.040
And then, you know, obviously you guys had your conversation.
00:03:45.420
I also happened to be in the room and eventually just turned off the camera.
00:03:52.240
No, I haven't seen the footage of that, but I experienced my side of the conversation
00:03:55.980
And I can only say you were very briefly a friendly voice on the line, and then I was
00:04:05.380
And we had what many view as perhaps my least successful podcast.
00:04:11.300
It certainly was in the top three, but it was kind of bewildering because we agree about
00:04:16.600
many things, but we got bogged down on debating open borders and just couldn't get back to dry
00:04:23.980
That was a shame because I think that, you know, I think you have a lot in common, actually.
00:04:29.280
And what was a bit frustrating for me being a listener was it just felt as if you were both
00:04:38.100
And, you know, that's always just sort of sad and a waste when that happens.
00:04:45.020
Well, I am virtually certain you and I won't have that problem.
00:04:47.900
Having watched your two, I think your two most recent films that are available on Netflix,
00:04:54.740
Jihad and White Right, I'm just so amazed at what you're doing and such a huge fan.
00:05:05.080
Our conversation will be absolutely no substitute at all for actually seeing them.
00:05:10.240
So you just have an enormous fan in me and I just want to talk about what you're doing
00:05:20.120
It's, you know, when you do your work and, you know, you're so, I mean, film is such a
00:05:25.760
sort of obsessive, really long, really hard process.
00:05:30.300
And it's just hard for me to look up from the work that I do because it just is so all-consuming.
00:05:37.140
So when people finally see the work and then the responses to the work is always, you know,
00:05:42.440
it's touching and confusing and, you know, quite amazing for me to realize that other
00:05:48.280
people have a relationship to the work that I do, you know, because for me, it's a matter
00:05:51.640
of just sort of satisfying my own curiosity, really, is what the films are an exercise in.
00:05:57.980
Yeah, I mean, it's got to be something more than curiosity here, though, because what you've
00:06:02.340
done here is you're kind of responding to a moral emergency in both films and putting
00:06:08.900
yourself on the line in a way that really seems unusual for a filmmaker.
00:06:14.080
So before we jump into each film, just tell us a little bit about your background.
00:06:19.800
How do you come to be dealing with these topics?
00:06:22.920
And I was surprised to learn you grew up in Norway, which you betray seemingly no evidence
00:06:42.880
Very, I would say, sort of an eccentric family in the sense that we had lots of artists and
00:06:49.520
activists and in the house when I was growing up is some of my earliest memories of, you
00:06:54.740
know, just sitting and playing on the carpet when my father and my mother would be entertaining
00:07:00.240
and having conversations about politics and about human rights and about theater and about
00:07:05.220
music and with feminists and with activists and human rights defenders from that part, from
00:07:12.720
So I sort of grew up understanding that that's what life is like.
00:07:19.500
That's what, you know, Muslim women are like even.
00:07:26.600
He had a lot of experiences of racism in Norway.
00:07:31.400
And one of the things that he had in his mind was that the only way you can get past that
00:07:37.620
is, and he gave me this lecture when I was actually quite warm.
00:07:41.240
And he said, look, there are only two professions in the world where your race won't matter,
00:07:46.140
your gender, your religion, your background won't matter.
00:07:49.200
If you work harder than everybody else and you remain patient and just stick to it, then
00:07:55.580
eventually you'll, you know, be able to do well in life.
00:07:59.840
And one is sports and the other person is within the arts and particularly music is what
00:08:06.940
And so at the age of seven, he basically decided that my profession was going to be music.
00:08:12.400
So I started studying music and this was North Indian and Pakistani classical music that I
00:08:21.120
Very, I mean, my dad was wonderful, but also a very strict, very harsh person when it came
00:08:28.840
And I always sort of joke about this, that, you know, my dad didn't, you know, arrange
00:08:33.820
my marriage or anything like that, but he, you know, he chose my profession for me.
00:08:38.120
Anyway, in Norway, I very quickly started doing public performances, both on TV and at music
00:08:44.640
festivals and various places and sort of became, I would say, this mascot for multicultural Norway.
00:08:52.040
You know, this little strange girl who was doing this strange sort of music and kind of
00:08:57.040
a symbol of how well Norway was doing with all of its sort of quote unquote new arrivals
00:09:03.860
And everyone felt very good about themselves and patted themselves on the back.
00:09:07.200
But as my success continued, I started getting more and more negative reactions as well from
00:09:14.280
One side was saying, you know, what is this little, basically Paki, which is a derogatory
00:09:19.840
term for people from Pakistan and South Asia, doing on our TV all the time, you know, send
00:09:25.680
the, you know, people like this, you know, they need to piss off back home.
00:09:28.840
And then the other side that I started also getting abuse from was from my parents' community.
00:09:34.660
And the Muslim community in Norway is actually quite small, but harassment from that side also
00:09:39.280
started getting very, very intense to the point where by the age of 17, I had to pack
00:09:47.040
my bags by a one-way ticket to London and left.
00:09:51.520
So it was sort of exiled from Norway, which is, which is strange in a way because a lot
00:09:55.920
of people leave difficult countries in search for safety in Norway.
00:10:05.480
So you're, you had a very liberal Muslim family and it sounds like you didn't escape all of the,
00:10:11.780
the Southeast Asian kinds of pressure one can get from one's family, but it was directed
00:10:17.200
toward music rather than religion or conservative social norms.
00:10:21.140
And so you're being a, a, a female performer put you on the radar of religiously conservative
00:10:31.220
And, and, and, and their, their reasoning was that they consider music to be unacceptable.
00:10:37.760
They consider music, they, they, they consider music to be a very low profession, a profession
00:10:42.680
that is engaged with by prostitutes and, and dishonorable people.
00:10:48.800
And people would often say, you know, you come from a good family, you know, why are you
00:10:53.300
engaging in such a, such a immoral and dishonorable profession?
00:10:58.020
And I remember, I think I was, you know, 11, 12 years old and, you know, we used to have
00:11:01.660
these sort of delegations of men would come to our house and try to talk sense into my
00:11:06.480
father saying, you know, we don't even allow our boys to engage in this profession.
00:11:10.140
What are you doing dragging your girl into this?
00:11:12.480
And he was, he would always show them the door.
00:11:15.540
And he would always say, look, this is my daughter, my decision.
00:11:19.800
And, and, you know, you people just, you leave, you, you, you get, you have no jurisdiction
00:11:25.160
And my grandfather on my father's side also lived in Norway.
00:11:29.120
He was one of the first immigrants from Pakistan to, to come to Norway to work.
00:11:33.460
He's very, very, very religious, very conservative.
00:11:37.040
He helped build several of the mosques in Norway and very loved and respected in Norway.
00:11:41.860
So, you know, so when people had, um, when they struggled with my father, then they would
00:11:45.640
go to my grandfather saying, look, she's bringing shame on the entire community.
00:11:49.520
She is leading our girls astray by showing them that, you know, they can do things like this.
00:11:55.160
And this has to, this has to stop, you know, stop him.
00:11:59.420
And then eventually, you know, people started coming to me in the streets of, of, of Oslo.
00:12:06.620
I was sat on, I was attacked at my own concerts.
00:12:16.660
And, and, you know, my, my, my mother always gets really upset whenever she thinks about
00:12:22.400
this, you know, cause she, she's, she's like, you know, cause I remember when we made the
00:12:27.580
decision, you know, she was sitting at the kitchen table and she sat me down and she said,
00:12:31.200
look, do you understand that we can no longer protect you?
00:12:35.180
Do you understand that we can no longer keep you safe and that you're going to have to go?
00:12:38.500
And I remember going, yes, I do understand that.
00:12:40.960
And, you know, and my heartbreak sort of at the time was, I mean, obviously I was afraid
00:12:47.860
And also, you know, I was afraid for my family because they were, you know, they stood by
00:12:55.000
You know, they were completely isolated and sort of pushed out by, by the rest of the community.
00:13:00.700
But, but, you know, they still, they still chose me instead of the community.
00:13:05.700
And, but I remember her just, you know, having to send her, her child away, you know,
00:13:10.600
and, and still to this day, she gets really, really sad when she thinks of that time, you
00:13:15.200
know, and my brother lost his sister, you know, I mean, we didn't have means of communicating
00:13:22.820
You know, I left my career, left my friends, left my life, left my family, left everything
00:13:30.420
As you pointed out, it's, it's amazing that you had to leave a Western society.
00:13:37.200
Which would be understandable, you know, but, and, and, and I think, you know, the,
00:13:41.120
the, the heartbreak for me was my exit was a very public exit.
00:13:45.940
You know, it wasn't something that sort of happened in secret.
00:13:48.420
It, it, it was, you know, sort of plastered across the, the, excuse me, the national newspapers
00:13:54.000
in Norway saying that I'd been threatened out of Norway and all of this.
00:13:57.760
And my, my kind of just sorrow at the time, sort of, you know, in, in the mind of a 17 year
00:14:02.700
old was, you know, I, that no one said anything, nobody said that, hold on, this is wrong.
00:14:09.100
And I remember kind of my way of thinking at the, again, you know, as a 17 year old
00:14:13.180
was, you know, I couldn't help but feel if I would have been blonde and blue eyed, would
00:14:22.100
And would there have been any kind of outrage then instead of just quietly letting me go
00:14:28.520
And, and I always sort of say this, but, but I really felt like, you know, at the airport
00:14:33.700
where you have, you know, there's always that one suitcase that keeps, you know, going round
00:14:38.280
and round on the baggage carousel that nobody comes to claim that suitcase felt like that.
00:14:43.700
I felt like I didn't belong to, to the Pakistani community.
00:14:46.820
And I felt like I didn't belong to my country, you know, and, and that was a very painful,
00:14:53.180
very, very difficult feeling to carry as a 17 year old, because you, you, you don't feel
00:15:03.180
You know, I, I worked really hard, you know, and, and, and this is what you end up with is,
00:15:08.220
is just loneliness and, and just a sense of deep, deep loss, you know, wandering the streets
00:15:15.120
of London, having no idea what to do or who you are or, or, or how you rebuild your life.
00:15:21.180
So, I mean, this is a very long answer to your question.
00:15:25.220
No, no, it's good to get your, your backstory here.
00:15:28.100
But ironically, so you, you, you go to London, which is also a center of Islamist and jihadist
00:15:36.400
I, you know, I often think of it as being one of the worst in the West in terms of, you know,
00:15:42.060
your, your exposure to a, a radicalized community.
00:15:45.680
I guess you, nobody knew who you were when you arrived, but just based on, on your own films,
00:15:51.180
you're, you're kind of out, out of the frying pan into the fire, aren't you?
00:15:55.640
Well, well, well, yes and no, because, I mean, the reason I chose London is because, you know,
00:16:02.140
I'd been here at the age of 12 and, and growing up in Norway, I always felt like, you know,
00:16:06.080
this strange sort of dark child in, in the sea of the blonde and the blue eyed.
00:16:10.640
So always, you know, had this feeling of never quite fitting in, never quite being sort of
00:16:15.220
enough for, for either side, not being Norwegian enough, not being Pakistani enough, you know,
00:16:20.680
and, and then the fact that you're a girl on top of it, you know, just adds all those,
00:16:25.960
But coming to the UK when I, I remember when I was 12, I, I, I loved it because I could
00:16:30.500
suddenly see people who looked like me and, and I suddenly felt like I didn't stand out
00:16:35.980
And that's one of the reasons I chose that instead of, instead of the US, for example,
00:16:43.340
But anyway, I think, you know, to a huge extent, London is a symbol and an example of how sort
00:16:52.700
of diverse cultures can coexist beautifully through, through some of the art and the music
00:17:00.400
and the, the, the foods and, and the friendships and, and, and the, the kind of life that you
00:17:07.560
But then of course, there is a flip side to that as well, that where you also see people
00:17:12.640
on the margins of, of, of the society and these various communities also, obviously, you
00:17:17.140
know, edging farther and farther towards violence and farther and farther towards separate
00:17:23.520
So, so yes, it's a difficult place in some ways, but in other ways, it's also actually quite
00:17:29.180
successful, which I think we don't really get to talk about or see very often, you know,
00:17:33.360
when it comes to, you know, feminists within, from, from the Muslim context, or it comes
00:17:37.820
to robustly addressing some of the, the challenges that we face within various minority communities.
00:17:43.760
I've seen that engagement in, in, in a much more impressive, robust form in, in, than I've
00:17:53.780
So I think a lot of the solutions also reside in England as much as the problems.
00:18:05.600
Do, do you, do you align with his reform efforts at all?
00:18:08.940
Or do you, is there daylight between how you come at this and how he does?
00:18:13.360
I, I, I don't know enough about the, the, the reform effort, but, but the little that
00:18:18.720
I do know, I don't think that we, we, we align.
00:18:22.220
I mean, I, I, I understand and respect some of the work that he's doing, but I think on
00:18:27.460
the reform side of things, it's, it's, I don't particularly see how that's effective,
00:18:34.120
I think people practice and manifest their, their religiosity in, in a multitude of ways
00:18:45.260
I, I don't think a kind of top-down, a kind of a choreographed reform is, is really needed.
00:18:52.520
I, I think, well, actually, can you explain to me what, what you understand he is doing?
00:18:59.300
And maybe I'm misunderstanding and then, then I can.
00:19:01.400
Yeah, yeah, well, basically he's, he, I mean, he's not cast himself as a theologian at all.
00:19:07.900
In fact, the, the theologian that he relies on most of the time is, is in your film, Jihad,
00:19:15.000
I don't know if he, if that film predates his association with Quilliam, but I think I'm,
00:19:24.800
And, but, you know, Maja's argument is, is simply that actually following the line you just suggested
00:19:30.240
that given that there's so much diversity in how people practice Islam, the only answer
00:19:39.940
I mean, you just, you have to keep your version of the faith out of public policy and out of
00:19:46.660
law and everyone should be free to practice as they want insofar as their practice doesn't
00:19:53.260
infringe on the, the well-being of anybody else, but it's just, there is no solution that
00:20:01.320
It's just, there has to be a, a, a truly robust commitment to secularism in the Muslim
00:20:11.180
So, so, so, so when we say that the, the, the reform initiative, what does that mean then?
00:20:16.820
Well, he actually does, he attempts to do many of the things that seem to have happened to
00:20:25.540
I mean, just, you have people who used to be Jihadists or used to be Islamists and, you
00:20:32.100
know, through some collision with modern values, they have relinquished their commitment to
00:20:43.540
And I mean, that's what happened to Majid and that's what happened to some of the people
00:20:47.540
And so the, the Quilliam Foundation just attempts to, to formalize how one goes about, you know,
00:20:54.400
reaching out to such people and changing their, their views on things.
00:20:57.640
So, I mean, he, he's just, Majid just finds himself in conversation with, with people like
00:21:04.440
Maybe we should just jump into talking about Jihad because I actually want to spend most of
00:21:09.460
the time talking about your, your second film, White, Right, or not, not your second film,
00:21:13.980
but the second film I want to talk about, which is, which is about, you know, white supremacy
00:21:18.260
in the U.S. because it's just a, an amazing document you have produced there.
00:21:23.360
But let's start with Jihad because we're already talking about this.
00:21:26.420
So you're, you focus on this problem of religious extremism under the banner of Islam.
00:21:33.440
And the main figure in the film is somebody who I didn't, I don't know all that much about,
00:21:39.420
but Abu Muntasar, maybe introduce him and, and, and how, and how did you come to make
00:21:49.240
Well, so I wanted to try and understand, well, there were, there was a couple of things I
00:21:55.380
One thing was that I wanted to understand why we were starting to see our young people
00:22:00.860
leaving the UK and other European countries and wanting to go to foreign battlefields.
00:22:07.700
So young Muslim kids who, who, you know, we would imagine have, have every reason to,
00:22:13.120
to want to live and want to just lead their lives as young people here instead of, of going
00:22:21.020
So I was wanting to try and understand why is that?
00:22:26.360
And then the second reason, which was much more personal was after having all the experiences
00:22:31.820
that I've had in my life, I, I, I sort of got to a point in, in life where I was sort of
00:22:36.880
done being afraid and done hiding and done leaving country after country and wanted to
00:22:43.720
do something that I've never done, which is to sit down with the, with the kinds of men
00:22:48.080
that were the reason that I had to leave Norway, for example, and, and see possible for us to
00:22:53.160
sit across from each other and have a conversation just about life and, and, and about, and about
00:22:58.920
each other. And so I, I set out on that sort of search and then came across Abu Muntasir,
00:23:07.660
who basically is one of the, the, the sort of founding figures of recruiting young people
00:23:14.540
from the UK, of actually from America in the past as well, Denmark, Germany, across Europe,
00:23:21.260
recruiting young Muslims to go and fight on foreign battlefields. In his time, it was Afghanistan,
00:23:26.320
it was Bosnia, it was Chechnya, Kashmir. And then he subsequently also then inspired the,
00:23:34.020
this, this kind of trend of, of foreign fighters that we now have seen in recent years. And what
00:23:40.740
was really interesting in speaking to him is that, you know, he was saying that one of the biggest
00:23:45.580
differences between his era and what we're witnessing now is that when he was going over there,
00:23:51.600
because they were fighting against the Soviets, he said that they were considered, I mean, as we
00:23:59.220
already know, you know, they were considered to be performing a holy war that was of benefit to the
00:24:04.920
West. So the, so the West was encouraging it and, and, and supplying weapons to these guys and,
00:24:10.420
and providing other logistical support to the Mujahideen and the Jihadis basically. And, and he said,
00:24:17.640
obviously now the enemy has changed. So now this force is viewed as, as a, as a very negative one.
00:24:24.040
But anyway, the point about him is that he managed to sow these seeds of this movement and of this
00:24:32.100
trend that we now have seen blossom through, through the recent years. And, and he, by the time I got to
00:24:39.260
speak to him, he's completely renounced his actions. He utterly regrets everything that he's done.
00:24:45.740
And he has now completely dedicated every single moment of his life in trying to undo what he's
00:24:52.400
done, trying to, I mean, we spoke about forgiveness a lot in both in the film and also off camera. And,
00:25:00.300
and I think he is trying to get to a place where he can forgive himself for what he's, the damage that
00:25:09.000
he's caused. And I think that's why he's doing everything in his power now to try and work with
00:25:13.580
young people, both in prison, in the, in the community. And he's still very much a believer,
00:25:18.660
but has understood that his understanding or his way of expressing his faith at that point was,
00:25:25.240
you know, very misguided and, and something that he really, really feels a lot of pain about now.
00:25:33.240
Yeah. And that pain comes through. He breaks down at, I think at least twice in,
00:25:37.020
in interviews with you. And it's, it's really, it's quite mesmerizing to watch because he's,
00:25:42.860
you know, he's right out of central casting as, as somebody, he's exactly who you would think would
00:25:48.060
be the bad jihadist in your movie of the war on terror. And yet he has had a total change of heart.
00:25:55.980
And it's extraordinary. I mean, to me, I mean, I have to be honest, I started the film very,
00:26:01.320
very pessimistic. I mean, and, and I wasn't quite sure what I was going to find. I had a feeling that
00:26:05.960
I would just sit with these guys and that it would just be an uphill struggle and that we would never
00:26:12.480
agree on anything. And, and, you know, I've, I've been afraid of men like this most of my life and,
00:26:19.240
and to sit down with them and to be able to connect with them in the way that we did. And for them to
00:26:25.140
share as much with me as they did was really special. And, and I left the project far more
00:26:32.120
hopeful that change is possible. You know, it's, it's, no one is beyond redemption. No one is beyond
00:26:40.920
the recognition that I did something wrong. I think it takes a lot of courage for people to admit
00:26:46.420
that they did something wrong and, and, and wanting to try and do better, wanting to try and do something
00:26:51.800
different. And he gets a lot of, I mean, you know, he, he, after the film came out as well,
00:26:58.380
you know, he got a lot of negative reactions and the film did too, you know, because a lot of people,
00:27:04.680
some people, you know, who, who used to love him were saying, you know, you're a sellout and,
00:27:10.140
you know, how, you know, what a coward you are. And he says that in the film too, but the backlash
00:27:15.120
from sort of the rest of, you know, society was also very, very intense for him because,
00:27:20.580
you know, people want to see him hung. People want to see him, you know, dead for what he did
00:27:25.580
and don't see the value in, in where he stands today and what his sort of wisdom that he's arrived
00:27:32.440
at can contribute towards the younger people that now are going through some of the same
00:27:36.160
issues that he did, you know, and, and he was very different as a leader, as a recruiter.
00:27:41.820
He was very different than his followers is what I found, which I thought was quite interesting.
00:27:46.540
He was absolutely committed to the cause. He was very, very dedicated both to his faith,
00:27:52.020
but also to, to kind of the, the geopolitical realities at the time that he wanted to, to participate
00:28:00.300
or contribute in, in some way. Whereas his followers were much more driven by a sense of purpose,
00:28:07.660
a sense of belonging and, and kind of revering him as the father figure that they didn't have
00:28:12.900
in their life. And I just find that really interesting that the recruiters like him and
00:28:18.540
leaders like him are able to sort of take those feelings and redirect them into a political cause
00:28:27.180
and, and ultimately towards violence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the jihadi worldview is incredibly
00:28:34.620
compelling. You know, I often think of it as you get to be a spiritual James Bond, right? I mean,
00:28:40.860
not only do you get to organize all of your craving for meaning and profundity and otherworldliness
00:28:48.120
and whatever religious superstition you have on board, it has all of the, the satisfactions of
00:28:55.880
supercharged religion. But in addition to that, you as a testosterone poisoned young man get to join a
00:29:04.880
gang, right? And you get to channel all of your sexual repression and awkwardness and dissatisfaction
00:29:11.980
into this project of becoming a warrior for God. And it really, it just, it checks all of the boxes
00:29:20.920
in, in, in the male imagination and search for self-aggrandizement. And then if you believe
00:29:28.740
the doctrine, you're expecting an eternal reward, which is explicitly sexualized, right? I mean,
00:29:35.560
you're, you get to hang with virgins, with God forever. And it's, it really is like the, the,
00:29:43.040
in my view, the scariest possible set of memes to be spreading. But there's no mystery as to why it's
00:29:51.980
so compelling with a few basic assumptions, just, just, you know, assuming that paradise exists and
00:29:57.300
that martyrdom is the way to get there. But also, I think what's really interesting is, is the fact
00:30:02.080
that it's sort of emotional and psychological vulnerabilities is, is underlying a lot of this.
00:30:08.760
And, and, and the needs that these movements are satisfying for young men. I think what's
00:30:15.020
interesting about that is a lot that we can actually do something about. And one of the things
00:30:19.760
that I did find is that as much as, as, you know, these guys, you know, go on about religiosity and
00:30:26.220
that that's their, you know, that's their primary driver. And that's kind of the, I always call it sort
00:30:30.740
of the window dressing that they put on top of everything else. I did find that other than some of the
00:30:36.220
very, very committed guys, like recruiters, like the leaders, most of the followers were actually
00:30:42.200
not particularly religious, actually, and, and that they were far more driven by, you know, a sense
00:30:49.840
of alienation, you know, and, and, and sense of, and this is something that I found quite similar
00:30:55.440
actually between these guys and the white supremacists that I met is, is just this inability
00:31:00.540
to deal with shame and humiliation in their life, whatever the source of that might be, whether
00:31:06.320
it's an, you know, experiences of, of, of racism or abuse or trauma or, or, or whatever the specifics
00:31:12.460
might be, but just an inability to deal with that. And both, and all sort of extremist movements seem
00:31:18.300
to equalize whatever loss of, of manhood and masculinity, these, these, these men feel,
00:31:26.440
whatever emasculation they feel, this sort of equalizes. And like you say, sort of supercharges
00:31:31.480
it for you. And then also look at the rewards. I mean, nevermind the, the, the rewards in the
00:31:37.900
hereafter, but you know, look at the rewards that you get while you're here. Look at for someone who
00:31:43.440
feels invisible and powerless and insignificant. Suddenly everybody cares about you. Suddenly you
00:31:49.500
are on the front covers of every single newspaper. You're on every single newscast, the most important
00:31:55.020
men on the planet, you know, men at the time, like Obama has to now think about you and talk about
00:32:01.280
you and, and worry about you. I mean, that's extraordinarily intoxicating. And I mean, and so,
00:32:07.480
so I agree with you that, that the religiosity or religious aspects of it, that these guys,
00:32:13.380
you know, believe that they're, they're loyal to is of course, a part of the picture. And so is also,
00:32:20.100
you know, foreign policy. Cause when I started making the film, people were saying, Oh, you know,
00:32:24.220
my friends were going, you know, find out, you know, is it foreign policy grievances or is it
00:32:30.200
religion? And what I found is that, you know, obviously both are absolutely a part of the
00:32:35.960
cocktail, but what makes somebody get up and act on that? You know, I have a lot of, you know, I,
00:32:42.980
I was against the Iraq war. I have a lot of issues with, you know, American British foreign policy as
00:32:47.900
well, but there's a reason I pick up a camera and these guys pick up a gun. And I wanted to,
00:32:52.400
why do they, why are some Muslim men drawn to this? There are, you know, 1.6 or 7 billion Muslims
00:32:59.440
walking around the world right now. And if the only qualifier to, to be a terrorist or to be a
00:33:05.100
jihadi is to be a Muslim, then everyone would be dead by now. Right? So, so that's, that's not enough
00:33:11.420
of a qualifier either. So what, what underpins it? And I, so that was interesting to me is that it
00:33:17.880
was the psychological and emotional vulnerabilities that, that were very much the reason why some of
00:33:25.160
these guys are drawn to it and other people are not. And how cynically these movements and these
00:33:30.280
recruiters are targeting these vulnerabilities that young men have. I mean, they're actively looking
00:33:35.780
for these guys. I remember somebody saying to me during the course of making that film is, you know,
00:33:41.400
when, when ISIS was very, very active online, do you remember? There was a lot of online recruitment
00:33:46.620
going on. And, you know, what I found is that their recruiters would spend hundreds of hours with
00:33:54.240
young kids online, hundreds of hours. And, and you can only imagine, you know, some kid who, who is
00:34:01.720
disengaged from the rest of his life, you know, maybe, you know, is, maybe doesn't have the kind
00:34:07.460
of friendship circles or, or is struggling at home or is, you know, having some sort of expectations
00:34:12.420
in his life from his family or from his country that he's unable to sort of live up to. And then
00:34:18.700
you've got this person spending hundreds of hours on you, building loyalty, building friendship. I mean,
00:34:25.160
that's extraordinary. And same with Abu Mitzir, the men, the, his followers that I spoke to,
00:34:30.400
they would have died for him any day. They would have died for him in some ways before they would
00:34:35.620
have died for their faith. Right. Does that make sense? So, so that, that intensity of their
00:34:41.140
relationships within these groups, it cannot be underestimated, I think. Yeah. Well, it has a
00:34:46.980
cult-like structure, you know, it's just, you have a charismatic leader, you have various beliefs which
00:34:53.960
convey meaning intrinsically. I mean, you're talking about a person's place in the universe and what
00:35:00.080
happens after death and what, you know, what answer makes sense of every apparent injustice
00:35:07.300
and struggle and failure in this life. You know, it will all be rectified at a certain point.
00:35:14.340
It's interesting because to compare the two phenomenon, the phenomenon of jihadism and the
00:35:19.580
phenomenon of white supremacy, they have so much in common. And as you say, it's, you know,
00:35:23.300
the recruiting tactics are the same. The vulnerabilities of the young men in many cases are the same.
00:35:28.720
I think there are a few differences. I mean, religion is, is one part of it. I mean,
00:35:32.800
religion does show up in the white supremacist side as well because they, they have their own
00:35:38.600
Christian beliefs that they, they kind of graft on to their, their racism and xenophobia, but
00:35:43.800
it's not, it's clearly not as integral to white supremacy as religious belief is to jihadism.
00:35:50.560
I think some of them, it really is quite intensely. And that's why it, my, my, my head was sort of
00:35:56.880
wanting to explode when, when I was listening to some of the white supremacists and, and using some
00:36:02.300
of the same terminology saying, you know, and suddenly I'm a warrior for God. And I'm sitting
00:36:08.100
there going, Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm, this is like a repeat. This is the, you know,
00:36:12.420
the, the slogans and the flags are different and, and, you know, but, but it's the same guy.
00:36:17.560
And also having been on the receiving end of death threats from, from both.
00:36:22.020
Yeah. You get it from both. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have to say reading some of those threats,
00:36:27.240
it might as well be the same guy and, and what they say that they're going to do to somebody
00:36:31.220
like me, it's the same kind of stuff, you know, which is really interesting and telling,
00:36:36.880
I think. But of course there are differences as well, but I just find that the, the, the,
00:36:41.600
the type of personalities that are drawn to this seem to be very, very similar across.
00:36:47.560
Extremist groups. And also the tactics are very, very similar too.
00:36:51.560
Yeah. And also there's, there's honor culture at the back of both. I would, I would think that
00:36:56.380
the honor culture is a little more intense in the, the jihadist context, but still the, you know,
00:37:02.340
white supremacy drawing a lot of energy from Southern honor culture is, it's easy to see some
00:37:10.260
Yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, I mean, gender is a huge part of this, you know, and
00:37:14.320
I think, you know, the term toxic masculinity, I think is absolutely appropriate for both
00:37:19.500
as well. And both are sort of hopping on to, to a past, to a golden past, you know, when,
00:37:25.600
when, when everything used to be so much better and when it used to be great and, and, you know,
00:37:30.680
and they can be a part of, of ushering in that past, which includes, you know, bizarrely, you
00:37:37.280
know, putting women back into the home and into very, very severe and rigid gender roles. And,
00:37:42.840
and, you know, only to, to, you know, continue having either Muslim babies or, or white babies,
00:37:48.800
you know, it's, it's really interesting, all the, the similarities there.
00:37:53.500
It seems like in your encounters with your subjects in jihad, these were, I think, almost
00:38:02.120
to a man, people who had thought better of the whole project and had come out the other
00:38:07.200
side, at least to some significant degree. Was there, remind me, was there anyone in the
00:38:12.240
film who was just fundamentally hostile to you and, and a current jihadist or, or Islamist
00:38:19.540
whose, whose views were just antithetical to everything you were trying to talk about?
00:38:23.500
Well, there were a couple of guys who are active now, but, but, you know, being a Muslim woman
00:38:28.680
myself, it's even the most hardcore of men, hardcore, you know, fanatic jihadi types, you
00:38:35.860
know, many, many of them, depending on how you approach them, will, will find it difficult
00:38:41.320
to be hostile, just to be hostile. So, so there's this kind of strange courtesy thing. And since
00:38:50.500
I wasn't there to have a kind of an antagonistic conversation or to have, I wasn't really there
00:38:56.480
to have a fight, it actually went, for the most part, it went okay. But I was very clear,
00:39:03.480
you know, I mean, I am Muslim, but, you know, I don't cover my hair, you know, I come from
00:39:07.220
the background that I come from. And, and my, my sort of condition was that I'm, I, I come
00:39:13.120
as me, you come as you. And, and, you know, we both leave our baggage at the door and we
00:39:18.160
meet each other as, as just who we are. And that was fine.
00:39:22.020
Well, I must say you, you do bring out the best in your subjects. I mean, it's, I've been
00:39:25.600
describing you with reference to your, to the film on white supremacists as kryptonite for
00:39:31.660
white supremacists. It's just amazing the effect you have on these guys. So let's just pivot
00:39:37.100
to white right, which again, people just have to go see. It's on Netflix in the U S. Do you,
00:39:42.660
do you know whether it's globally available on Netflix?
00:39:46.100
No, it's not. It's, it's available in, where is it? In the U S and in the UK, I think. And
00:39:54.020
then in Australia and Canada, other places that there are, their own broadcasters are streaming
00:40:00.880
Well, people have to get their eyeballs pointed in the right direction and watch this,
00:40:06.680
this hour long film. So let's just talk about how you got into position to even shoot this
00:40:17.280
because you find yourself in Charlottesville just at the right time when all of this famously
00:40:23.140
goes off. How did you come to be in Charlottesville? And I mean, you, you must've just heard that
00:40:30.440
there was going to be a big demonstration and, and just assumed that would be a good thing to
00:40:35.060
film. Well, so I, so there, there, there's been several events at Charlottesville or rallies at
00:40:41.520
Charlottesville last summer. Excuse me. I went to the first one, which was, which was the KKK
00:40:47.540
was going to basically protest the, the, some of the statues being removed. So I went to that and it
00:40:54.820
was maybe about 40, 50 Klan people and what felt like at least a thousand counter-protesters.
00:41:04.020
And then there, some people were saying that actually there's going to be another rally coming
00:41:08.780
up in a couple of months. You know, are you coming to that? And I kept going, I don't know. I mean,
00:41:13.700
I, I don't, I barely even knew what Charlottesville was until that point. And then in the meantime,
00:41:20.600
so I went to that and then the entire process of trying to get people to speak to me was very,
00:41:27.380
as you can imagine, very, very difficult and very time consuming because most people that I
00:41:32.740
contacted were not interested in speaking to me because I explained again, I was very clear who I
00:41:37.740
am, what kind of background I have, what kind of politics I have, because I didn't want anyone to
00:41:41.640
feel like I was, you know, springing anything on them in person. I wanted them to know clearly this is
00:41:46.780
who I am and this is what I would like to do, which is to try and not necessarily speak about
00:41:51.200
the ideology, but try and find ways to discuss why people are drawn to these movements. So most of
00:41:59.880
them said, no, not interested. And one guy, which is, his name is Jeff Scoop, and he was the head of
00:42:07.560
the, he is the head of the National Socialist Movement, which is the largest neo-Nazi group in
00:42:12.840
America and one of the oldest ones. He wrote back and was not particularly interested. And, but I
00:42:19.460
thought, okay, well, at least he's, you know, not saying a complete no. So let me just push, I pushed
00:42:23.800
him for such a long time. And he finally said, okay, you get one hour, you come to where I live,
00:42:30.600
there's a specific motel, you come to that one hour and then you just leave. And I said, okay,
00:42:34.680
thank you. Fine. No problem at all. And five hours later, he says, uh, we're going to a rally,
00:42:42.600
which will be in Charlottesville and you are welcome to join us. And, and I said, wow, okay,
00:42:48.300
great. And then I actually flew to Detroit, which is where he is. And he drove and I sat in the car
00:42:55.140
with him filming for nine hours. He drove from Detroit to Charlottesville.
00:42:59.020
And, and you had one person in another cameraman or, or it was just me and my colleague, a producer
00:43:05.280
who also films and that's it. So it was the two of us in the car with Nazis basically for nine hours
00:43:11.980
talking about all kinds of very inappropriate stuff because nine hours is a very long time.
00:43:18.140
You get to find out who someone is after nine hours in the car. Yeah.
00:43:21.380
Oh my goodness. Absolutely. And, and, and he basically said, look, I guarantee your safety.
00:43:27.540
And, you know, you, you come, it'll be fine. And so the whole deal was that I'm going to
00:43:34.580
march with them. I'm, I'm going, I'm going to basically do whatever they do so that I can get
00:43:39.500
a chance to walk in their shoes and just see, you know, what happens. So as you can imagine,
00:43:44.680
you know, we pull up to these, uh, you know, different parking lots beforehand, all these various,
00:43:50.060
you know, white nationalists and all these various white supremacist groups are gathering
00:43:53.360
from all around America and there, and I'm the only Brown person and, and one of the very,
00:44:00.220
very few women, I mean, nevermind even Brown, but just even one of the few women there and
00:44:05.760
everybody just looks at me like, like, uh, I just, they want to like slip my throat or something.
00:44:13.660
It was absolutely horrendous. So even though Jeff had said, it's fine, you know, you know,
00:44:18.940
we'll look out for you. It's, it's, it's okay. It was horrible. And I kept pulled off by different
00:44:25.240
groups, you know, you know, who the F are you, you know, what are you doing here? You blah, blah.
00:44:29.760
Wow. And, and then, and then they also start saying, then Jeff also starts saying, you know,
00:44:34.420
uh, the Antifa. So the anti-fascists will also be, you know, counter protesting at the rally.
00:44:39.880
And, you know, we usually get into physical fights with each other. You know, sometimes there's,
00:44:44.940
there's been hammers that have come out and, and, and I'm just standing there going,
00:44:48.840
oh my goodness me, what have I just agreed to do?
00:44:53.420
Was this the point where you felt the least safe physically in, in making either of the two films?
00:44:59.760
Yes. Yes. But, but there were several instances in, in this film where I felt very, very, very unsafe.
00:45:06.680
I mean, this was just one of them. I mean, after, well, during the actual Charlottesville,
00:45:11.600
so, so, so I'm marching with them and they're chanting, you know, Jews will not replace us.
00:45:17.560
And they're chanting about deportations that they need to become the, the, uh, what, what is their
00:45:23.540
chant? Anyway, the, the, now we start the deportations and, you know, and I'm marching in
00:45:28.060
with these people. And then the local community of, you know, people from Charlottesville and the
00:45:33.680
counter protesters are shouting and screaming at us as well. And I'm trying to film in the middle of all
00:45:40.340
of this and I'm wearing a helmet and, and suddenly I get pepper sprayed because they were trying to
00:45:45.240
pepper spray somebody else. And it was just a mess. And it was terrifying when all the violence broke
00:45:51.300
out because the, the, the entire time, even before it turned into violence, the, the intensity of all
00:46:00.620
of these people, everybody was on edge and you could tell both sides were just raring to go at each
00:46:07.700
other. So when it, when it happened, it was just, it was really, really terrifying and managed to
00:46:13.380
anyway, get back safely to the, the, um, barely to the parking lot again. And then one of the guys
00:46:21.160
said, Oh, there's going to be this gathering afterwards and it's fine for you to bring cameras.
00:46:26.080
You can talk to some of the people there and said, okay, that's fine. So in the mountains of Virginia
00:46:30.040
somewhere, I off some dirt road in this compound was about 60, 70 guys there. And I remember talking
00:46:39.100
to my colleagues saying, okay, let's just get our cameras and go down. And he goes, no, look, let's,
00:46:43.500
let's just wait, keep the camera in the car. And if everything is okay, we'll come back and get the
00:46:48.800
camera. And I said, look, he said, it's fine. Let's just get it. He said, no, no, just let's wait. And you
00:46:53.680
start walking down this dirt road and the guys start gathering and start shouting and screaming
00:46:59.280
and cursing. I mean, I probably can't say this stuff. You can say whatever you want. Okay. But
00:47:04.300
you know, the fuck are you, you know, you fucking media. Are you a fucking Jew? Are you, I mean,
00:47:08.680
it just starts shouting and they can't even really see me yet, you know, put your fucking hands up.
00:47:12.940
And then they start bringing out weapons and some of them are topless and they've got bruises on their
00:47:17.380
body from, from earlier in the day. And they're drinking. I see lots of, you know,
00:47:21.200
fear in one hand and weapons in the other hand. And this isn't like, I mean, I'm not really used
00:47:25.960
to seeing that many weapons anyway, you know, coming from Europe, but this was stuff that I've
00:47:30.600
seen like in battlefields, like this wasn't handguns. These were massive machines and finally get down
00:47:37.740
there and they start getting in my face and start shouting. And what kind of a fucking Muslim are you?
00:47:42.120
Are you a Shia? Are you a Sunni? And I start chuckling a little bit going, what does that have to do with
00:47:45.900
anything? You know, and why is your fucking head not covered? What kind of a fucking Muslim
00:47:51.040
are you? And I'm going, Oh my goodness me. And I, and I remember looking, glancing at my phone
00:47:57.040
and cause they've got my, my colleagues circled as well and shouting.
00:48:00.840
But where are your Nazi friends at this point? Because at this point you've got,
00:48:05.520
Yeah, no, so he's gone. So he, he, I suddenly, I can't see him and he's frantically looking for
00:48:10.080
whatever person had said it was okay for us to come. Cause he kept going in and be cool. It's,
00:48:14.260
you know, so-and-so said it's fine. It's fine. And so he kind of disappears and these guys are
00:48:19.180
smoking, you know, blowing cigarette in my face and, and, you know, and just, just, it's,
00:48:24.940
it was so frantic and more and more of them were coming and like getting in my face, like no space
00:48:32.060
between us at all. And, and I remember glancing at my phone and it says no signal. Right. Right.
00:48:37.840
And at that point I'm thinking, okay, they can put a bullet in my head and they can put me in the
00:48:42.000
ground right here in the middle of nowhere. And no one's going to find out. No one's going to know
00:48:47.420
because then everything starts running through my head going, I haven't told my colleagues
00:48:51.420
that I'm here. I haven't told my family, haven't told the TV channel, haven't told anybody
00:48:56.180
that I'm actually here. So if something happens to me, they'll know I'm gone, but they're not going
00:49:02.180
to ever, ever find me again. And finally the, the guy, Brian Culpepper is his name. He came and he
00:49:09.020
managed to negotiate our way out. So we've allowed to finally leave.
00:49:13.320
Oh, so he didn't actually negotiate your staying there and filming and, and.
00:49:19.280
No, because it got so hysterical and they were, I mean, they were cursing. I mean, it was,
00:49:24.200
the people were very, very riled up. And so finally left and my colleague is white. So it was just me
00:49:30.120
who's not like them. And I remember just, you know, immediately getting back to the motel and,
00:49:36.140
and, and, you know, writing my, my colleague, Joanne, and just saying to her, look, you know,
00:49:40.800
this is where I am. This is what I'm doing. Here's my mother's phone number. Here's my brother's
00:49:45.860
phone number. You know, if you don't hear from me every couple of days, you just need to,
00:49:49.540
you need to let them know, you know, but, but this was just one of many, many very unpleasant
00:49:55.820
experiences. At another place, I went to a training camp where I was allowed to film part of it and
00:50:01.000
then not another part. And I remember a guy sitting there with, again, gun, everybody's drinking,
00:50:07.920
everybody has guns out and he's, he's got his gun on his lap and he's holding it. And he's looking at,
00:50:12.600
just, just staring at me, not talking, just staring at me as I'm talking to other people.
00:50:16.980
And then finally he says, you know, the, the, the best thing about serving in Iraq and serving
00:50:22.860
in Afghanistan, he's a former soldier, he says, is getting paid to shoot ragheads like you.
00:50:28.900
I'm sitting there going, okay, that's, that's, that's great. That's, thank you. Okay. And just,
00:50:34.420
you know, my way away from there. And it's, it was just horrifying. And some other guy following me
00:50:40.380
around, you know, clearly on medication, also for a former soldier kind of twitching and kind of
00:50:46.360
glassy eyed, you know, I'm going to put a fucking bullet through your head. I'm going to put a
00:50:51.320
fucking bullet through your camera. Don't fucking film me. And I'm going, oh my goodness, I'm not
00:50:57.760
Well, this is, this is amazing to hear because this is virtually none of this comes through in
00:51:03.260
your film. I mean, your, your film is a far more hopeful document. And now I'm, I'm beginning to
00:51:09.220
worry that it's, it's, it's a document for another world because the main import of your
00:51:15.160
film is you put a white supremacist in a room with Dia Khan and there's no, there's, there's no way
00:51:22.960
to maintain the white supremacy for very long under the, the empathic insistence of you as an
00:51:29.780
interviewer. No, but you saw that with, I mean, nevermind these guys, but you also see it in the
00:51:33.860
film with, with Richard Spencer and the Jerry as well. Yeah. I was going to, I was going to remark on
00:51:38.060
that difference because, so you have a few guys whose names escape me, but there's probably three
00:51:42.920
guys who you, who you seem to spend a lot of time with and each falls under your sway to a degree
00:51:49.660
that is frankly pretty adorable. And they're effectively deprogrammed of their white supremacy
00:51:55.400
in your presence based on questions you ask. And I got to say the fact that you are, you also happen
00:52:02.800
to be a beautiful woman can't have been irrelevant. The effect on the viewers, you, I basically felt
00:52:08.960
like I was watching three guys fall in love with you and encounter a level of cognitive dissonance
00:52:15.360
with their worldview that was just completely unsustainable. I don't know if you felt that
00:52:19.940
yourself, but it was just like, I mean, these, you're at your, when you get around to asking them,
00:52:25.180
so you mean to tell me you would want to deport me and you would think I should be stripped of my
00:52:30.120
rights. And each one of them is saying, no, no, well, no. I mean, I mean, and it's amazing. I mean,
00:52:36.100
these are amazing encounters you've captured on film. They are, but you're, you're, you did not
00:52:41.780
have that effect on Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor, it seems. And was that based on, on them
00:52:49.420
or the, or the, you had less access to them or how do you perceive the difference between those
00:52:54.120
encounters? Well, well, the, the, the men that I just spoke about that, these very kind of
00:52:59.140
vicious encounters, the, the, some of the men were one of the men who in the film leaves Brian
00:53:05.940
Culpepper. He saw me being treated like this. And part of his reason for leaving was that he couldn't
00:53:14.700
see me treated like this because he was starting to consider me to be a friend. And this was very,
00:53:19.260
so I think he started seeing his movement in a different light when he's seeing it relate to
00:53:24.620
his friend, somebody like me, whereas beforehand, you know, this hadn't really occurred to him.
00:53:30.540
It wasn't personal. It doesn't become personal, but when it comes to the Richard Spencers and the
00:53:36.000
Jared Taylors of the world, I did not get to spend as much time with, with them, but also I actually
00:53:42.380
find them to be more, more sort of sinister in many ways. I, you know, and, and also more dangerous.
00:53:48.220
I mean, the, the, what surprised me most about making this film actually was, was the very deep
00:53:54.080
difference between sort of the working class guys, or you say blue collar, don't you guys? And,
00:53:59.820
and these kind of this sort of suit and tie brigade of Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor and others like
00:54:06.140
them. And, and I mean, I found the kind of camaraderie and the, the, the kind of love between these
00:54:14.140
various groups really telling as well, because you see Richard Spencer treating his own followers with,
00:54:21.100
with a lot of contempt and a lot of disrespect, which I think is interesting. Whereas, you know,
00:54:25.780
Jeff and some of the Nazis that I spend time with, you know, they, for example, at Charlottesville,
00:54:31.540
you know, they were, when it, when the worst violence started happening, there were several cars that were
00:54:37.940
brought up to one of the areas to pick up all the leaders of the different groups. And Richard Spencer,
00:54:43.400
you know, was, was, you know, escorted off into a car and, and a lot of the other leaders. And Jeff
00:54:48.600
was actually one of the only guys who said, no, I'm going, and because their followers weren't able to
00:54:52.440
fit into the cars. So Jeff said, I'm going to walk back. So he walked back through all the counter
00:54:57.280
protests with the rest of his group because he didn't want to be separate in that way. So I think
00:55:02.760
that was really telling, but, but excuse me, but your question is why was my encounters with,
00:55:09.140
with those guys different? I think because their aim is something different and their reason for
00:55:14.420
being in the movement is something different. I think for, for the neo-Nazis that I spoke to,
00:55:19.160
a lot of it is about emotions. And whereas for the Jared Taylors and the Richard Spencers,
00:55:26.980
it's much more about ideology and it's much more about power. And I think it's also about
00:55:31.520
wanting access to more power. Whereas for the other guys, it's, it's just trying to regain some
00:55:38.340
sense of dignity and some sense of purpose and meaning and belonging and all the other words that
00:55:44.300
we said earlier about the previous film. So I think it's harder to get through, you know, a lot of
00:55:50.120
people who are deeply committed to an ideology, you know, they have a barrage of, of argumentative
00:55:55.840
tactics and, and their worldview is something that's been built over a long period of time.
00:56:01.620
And they've spent ages, cherry picking arguments and, and, and reading bias materials, you know,
00:56:07.360
to constantly reinforce their worldview and reaffirming and refining their arguments against
00:56:14.160
the other side. And I think Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor fit into that. Whereas the other guys
00:56:20.380
were able to sort of connect to my humanity and therefore also their own.
00:56:27.060
Yeah. The difference is really striking just, you know, as a viewer, it's when your, your Nazi
00:56:33.700
friends are warming up to you. It really, I mean, you know, adorable is not too strong a word. It was
00:56:38.360
really, you know, those were, it was very cute to see you just kind of cut through their worldview.
00:56:44.800
And the result is just superhumanizing and you feel compassion for these guys. And then to see
00:56:51.420
you walk into a room with Richard Spencer and he, he's got this kind of reptilian glare and he really
00:56:58.960
is a sinister guy who, I mean, there's just, there's no warmth and his own egocentricity and cruelty are
00:57:07.640
so obvious. I mean, the guy is just a colossal asshole, you know, so, you know, as a viewer,
00:57:14.960
you're sort of just, I just want you to get out of the room with him. You know, I just, I was
00:57:19.620
uncomfortable having you in his company, but when you went into these situations, your technique
00:57:26.700
as an interviewer is, it's really pretty interesting. Again, I'm, I'm, I'm aware that there's so much
00:57:33.080
happening off camera that I'm not seeing, but you're just really directly seeking to build
00:57:40.400
an empathic connection with someone. You're not arguing with them. You're not trying to give a
00:57:47.320
litany of reasons why they're wrong about anything. You're trying to understand them and then just
00:57:53.200
juxtapose the rapport that's being built by that just basic human communication with the fact that
00:58:00.900
they have a set of beliefs wherein you are branded as the, the other so irretrievably as to really
00:58:08.460
suggest that they, they should want to murder you or have someone else murder you. And at a certain
00:58:13.420
point, you just juxtapose those two facts. And in the cases of at least three of the guys, it proves
00:58:19.960
totally untenable. How did you think about your approach to this? Because it really, you really are
00:58:25.860
just putting yourself on the line in a, in a very interesting way. I think you have to, or at least
00:58:32.100
I feel like I had to, because, you know, I, I've, I've had experiences of racism most of my life.
00:58:39.300
And, and, you know, I, I, as a result, I've, I've been an anti-racist, anti-fascist campaigner most of
00:58:46.080
my life as well. And I've done sort of everything that, that you would imagine. I've gone to, you know,
00:58:50.840
anti-fascist protest. I've shouted at these guys. I have, you know, flipped them off. I have thrown
00:58:56.420
stuff at them. I have, you know, I've done all of that. And none of that really did anything. You
00:59:03.320
know, it's, it's the other thing that I was always told growing up, you know, is that just give it time
00:59:08.260
and, and these movements will just disappear. And, and it's true, you know, they, they sort of,
00:59:12.800
you know, reduce in size and, and in, and in noise. And, but then they come back, you know,
00:59:18.540
they never quite ever go away. And, and here we are today with, with sort of this resurgence again.
00:59:24.440
And so I, I just got to a point where I realized I, again, that I'm, I'm done being afraid of people
00:59:32.520
like this. And, and I, I need to try something that I've never done before, which is to sit down
00:59:37.960
and to listen and to see if it's possible for us, you know, seeming, seemingly enemies. I mean,
00:59:45.620
they're my enemy as much as I'm theirs in, in many ways. And to see if it's possible for us to build
00:59:50.420
a human connection and, and to work, work with that and use that as a starting point, not using
00:59:57.540
the ideology as a starting point. And that's very much the same with, with the jihadi side as well
01:00:02.260
is, you know, if it's possible for us to build human connections first, the ideology eventually
01:00:07.680
falls apart for most people, because it's always about something else. It's always about other human
01:00:14.240
needs that are not being met. And if you can acknowledge that, and if you can sort of sit
01:00:18.640
through that together, and I think a sincerity and a real wish to listen and not condemning people,
01:00:27.680
not, you know, it's very easy to condemn them. I have to say both sides, it's very, very easy to
01:00:32.480
condemn the jihadis and to condemn the white supremacists as well. And it's very, very satisfying.
01:00:36.500
I have to say, it feels great to condemn them, and to judge them. But it doesn't provide any
01:00:42.280
answers. And it doesn't provide any results. And I did not make the film with the hopes of
01:00:50.600
changing anyone or changing anyone's mind or anything like that. I purely made the film to
01:00:55.700
try and understand why people do the things that they do, why people believe the things that they
01:01:00.540
believe, and to see if it's possible for us to sit across from each other, just as human beings,
01:01:06.540
and use that as a starting point towards something, something else, just of greater understanding,
01:01:11.840
perhaps. So the fact that, you know, some of them started using words like friend, for me,
01:01:18.240
the fact that we were able to, you know, build a real relationship with each other of friendship was
01:01:25.320
absolutely shocking to me, and confusing, and something I never would have expected. If you
01:01:34.040
would have said to me a year ago, that I'm going to become friends with people like this, my goodness,
01:01:40.460
I would have laughed at you at first. And then secondly, I think I would have been offended that
01:01:46.160
you would think that I would do that, you know, and here we are, you know, and it's very, very strange,
01:01:53.920
but it does give me a lot of hope. And going back to the Richard Spencer and that kind of dynamic,
01:01:58.940
also, what's the biggest difference between him and some of these guys is, I spoke to these guys
01:02:04.720
alone. I spent a lot of time with them alone. Richard Spencer never was around me alone.
01:02:11.160
He always had his friends, he always had his, so that kind of dynamic of always wanting to sort of
01:02:15.820
show yourself as this, you know, whatever, you know, tough guy is very different. And the same
01:02:23.440
thing with the Nazis as well. All the difficult experiences that I had only happened when they're
01:02:28.260
all big groups, and the testosterone, and the anger, and the name calling, and all of that is
01:02:36.200
Maybe your superpower has only come out when you're one-on-one.
01:02:40.120
You're a superhero that has to get alone with her target.
01:02:45.940
But it's nonetheless super. I mean, the effect is really, it really is pretty mesmerizing to watch.
01:02:51.100
I'm so touched by them. I have to say, you know, and Ken, one of the guys, you know,
01:02:57.080
that's the guy who was, you know, throwing the anti-Semitic flyers out of his window.
01:03:01.720
You know, he called me, because in the film, he doesn't leave. He uses the word friend for me,
01:03:06.480
but he doesn't actually leave. And in the film, I also asked him, I said, okay, so, you know,
01:03:10.500
what does this mean? You know, now, you know, going forward, what is this going to mean? And he said,
01:03:14.640
well, I think, you know, this opens me up to, you know, maybe speaking to other people who are
01:03:18.840
different to me. And he actually stayed true to that. He actually, he actually did do that. And
01:03:24.200
he ended up speaking to, after I'd gone, we kept in touch. And he was also, I mean, he was expelled
01:03:30.880
from his university. And I tried to help him with, with some of that. I think they were worried that
01:03:35.280
he was going to, you know, shoot there. I don't know.
01:03:37.660
Yeah. He had that photo that he posted on Facebook, I think.
01:03:39.960
Exactly. And I tried actually, I haven't really said this out loud before, but, but I tried
01:03:45.980
reasoning with some of the, you know, people at his university, some of the, the, the professors
01:03:52.000
to try and say that, look, I don't believe that he has it in him to do that. And, and somebody like
01:03:58.100
him at the crucial point where he stands in his life right now, the best place for him to be right now
01:04:03.320
is in, in, in, in the, in a space where he can continue his education. I think if you take that
01:04:09.340
away from him, then we do run a risk of, of him, you know, going over the edge, but he really needs
01:04:15.300
to continue learning and needs to be in an, in an environment of knowledge and, and people and
01:04:20.900
thinking and reading. Nevertheless, they kicked him out. And, and I understand that as well, but
01:04:26.320
anyway, he, he, there's a black pastor in his African-American pastor in his apartment complex
01:04:32.600
who he started talking to. And then this pastor invited him to his congregation, which is an all
01:04:38.840
black congregation. And then Ken goes there, talks about his past as a, as a Ku Klux Klan member and
01:04:45.560
currently as a neo-Nazi and his Venus and all of this. And the response to him was kindness and was
01:04:52.620
compassion. And, and, you know, people apparently came up and hugged him after and said, you know,
01:04:56.620
obviously we disagree with you and dislike, you know, what you stand for, but it takes a lot of
01:05:02.280
courage for you to come in here and say, and, and, you know, sort of speak in this way and to, you
01:05:07.120
know, put yourself out there like that. And that completely just unpicked everything for him. So he
01:05:14.300
called me months ago and said, look, Dia, I've completely left. I've left the ideology. I've left the
01:05:20.120
groups. I've left everything. And I'm so sorry. And he said, you know, the hate was eating me from
01:05:26.380
the inside. And he said, you know, I want to try and do better. And, and, you know, and it's, it
01:05:32.220
tells me that we can't really afford to give up on people, you know, people who seem like him. I mean,
01:05:39.640
he has a massive swastika, as you see in the film, you know, has a massive swastika tattooed on his
01:05:44.240
chest and a clan tattoo, utterly committed to, to his cause. And, you know, today he's, he's left.
01:05:51.620
And in the film, he says, oh, you know, but I'm never going to break bread with a, with a Jew. And,
01:05:55.680
you know, two or three weeks ago, I heard that that's exactly what he's done.
01:05:59.660
He's having his tattoo removed, you know, so it's, so there is hope. I'm not saying that,
01:06:04.600
you know, let's hug a Nazi and everything's going to be fine. But, but I, what, what I've learned
01:06:10.640
is that I think, you know, no platforming these people and, and, and completely just
01:06:17.820
rejecting them, I think feeds into their kind of story of victimhood. And as if, you know,
01:06:23.440
they are speaking some sort of forbidden truth. And I think if anything, we need to expose racism,
01:06:29.860
we need to challenge it and we need to, we need to confront it rather than allowing it to just
01:06:34.840
marinate in its own kind of madness, you know, and going back to the thing you were talking about,
01:06:40.560
you know, interviewing technique. I mean, I don't think I really have an interviewing technique
01:06:44.600
other than just, I think empathy is very important to me.
01:06:48.100
No, it doesn't seem like a technique. It just seems like a willingness to hold all of your judgment
01:06:54.300
in abeyance and make a connection with these people.
01:06:58.020
Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the, the, the judgment and the kind of feelings of self-righteousness for
01:07:03.440
holding all the right opinions and having all the correct, you know, politics and all of, you know,
01:07:07.280
all of that kind of stuff, I think is just counterproductive. I think it's, it actually
01:07:12.440
adds to the problem and, and, and adds to people's radicalization rather than not. And, and, you know,
01:07:18.760
in speaking with the jihadis who left, and then also with former violent neo-Nazis in this movement,
01:07:26.060
in this film, you know, what struck me after the fact is that what interrupted people's kind of
01:07:34.440
hatred and people's ideology is for someone who represents the other in their eyes to treat them
01:07:42.240
with dignity and with respect and with some level of kindness. And that doesn't immediately change
01:07:48.840
somebody, but that began the process of unraveling some of this in their minds. And, and that was just
01:07:54.680
as true for some of the jihadis as well. You know, for example, being treated by, you know, an American
01:07:59.720
nurse, for example, you know, so it's, so somebody doesn't suddenly become, you know, no longer a
01:08:06.300
jihadi, but, but again, human connection. And I think empathy. And I asked Jeff at the end of our
01:08:12.380
five hours, that was supposed to just have been one hour. I asked him, I said, look, why are you
01:08:17.760
sort of tolerating me? Why, why are you wanting to continue this conversation? And he said, he said,
01:08:25.060
I completely dislike what you say. I completely disagree with what you stand for and the world
01:08:30.620
that you want to live in. And he said, and I'll actively fight against it. And he said, but I
01:08:35.920
respect that you believe in something. And he said, I respect that you are sincerely an activist.
01:08:45.020
And he said, so that I can actually relate to. He said, everything that you stand for, you know,
01:08:50.720
is just kind of horrible to me. But I respect your sincerity.
01:08:55.500
Well, if memory serves, you made more progress with him than that.
01:08:59.340
Well, well, he is still the, the, the head of the, the, the Nazi party, though.