Making Sense - Sam Harris - #163 — Ricky Gervais

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.820 This is Sam Harris.

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00:00:46.740 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:49.220 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:52.080 Okay.

00:00:53.380 Brief housekeeping.

00:00:55.240 The waking up course.

00:00:56.620 The groups feature is finally launching, I believe, in the next update, so more or less

00:01:04.960 any day now.

00:01:06.740 And this will give you the ability to schedule a time to practice with friends and colleagues

00:01:12.420 and even strangers.

00:01:14.520 You can just go out to people in your world and then meet in a virtual group where you

00:01:22.760 can sit in silence or listen to a guided session or both.

00:01:27.480 I'm actually excited about this.

00:01:28.720 It will obviously create social support for people and accountability, but I think it'll

00:01:34.280 just be very cool to see your friends practicing with you in silence.

00:01:40.460 I'm hoping that it'll simulate the intimacy one experiences on retreat.

00:01:45.500 It's amazingly intimate just to sit with people in silence.

00:01:51.260 So hopefully that proves valuable to everyone.

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00:02:00.960 And if you're not using the app and you want more information, you can find all of it at

00:02:07.520 that website.

00:02:09.040 The app launched now nine months ago, and the feedback has really been great.

00:02:15.940 It is very gratifying to know that so many of you are finding it useful, but it's still

00:02:20.340 very much a work in progress, and it will be absorbing much more of my energy over the

00:02:24.280 next year or so.

00:02:25.060 So stay tuned for changes and more content.

00:02:31.020 Okay.

00:02:32.600 Well, in this episode of the podcast, I speak with Ricky Gervais.

00:02:38.300 You surely know Ricky from The Office and Extras and many of his other shows, most recently

00:02:47.380 Afterlife on Netflix.

00:02:49.620 You can also see his great hour of stand-up there titled Humanity.

00:02:53.680 And he has another one in the works called Supernature.

00:02:58.040 This conversation was a long time coming.

00:03:01.160 I've been emailing with him for years at this point, but we had never met.

00:03:06.100 So I took the opportunity to fly to London.

00:03:10.700 I thought this was one that had to be done in person.

00:03:14.160 Anyway, it was great to finally meet Ricky.

00:03:16.360 And we talk about many things.

00:03:18.620 We talk about comedy, obviously, and fame, the effect of social media.

00:03:25.180 We talk about the risk of telling offensive jokes or saying much of anything, really.

00:03:32.160 We talk about Louis C.K.

00:03:33.720 And Brexit and Trump, political hypocrisy, the state of journalism.

00:03:41.840 We touch many things here.

00:03:43.840 As always, if you find conversations like these valuable, you can support the podcast by becoming a subscriber through my website at samharris.org.

00:03:50.720 And I left the bonus questions in this episode.

00:03:55.140 But once my website is revamped, which is also happening very soon, we'll be rolling out the bonus questions I've acquired for other guests to subscribers.

00:04:07.080 So those, along with Ask Me Anything episodes of the podcast and some other content that will soon be coming, is there to incentivize subscription.

00:04:16.740 Because while the podcast itself is free, subscriber support is what makes it possible.

00:04:23.120 And now, without further delay, I bring you Ricky Gervais.

00:04:26.600 Thank you.

00:04:56.600 I have no mic technique at all.

00:04:58.500 Well, you are a podcaster, so you should have some mic technique.

00:05:01.880 No.

00:05:04.260 Yeah, you can get right up on it.

00:05:06.620 But you have that big laugh.

00:05:09.720 Yeah, sound men all over the world.

00:05:12.280 So I'm going to ask you to leave the room if you have to do that again.

00:05:15.760 Okay.

00:05:18.380 That big laugh, that's a lovely euphemism for annoying noise.

00:05:23.520 He has a big laugh.

00:05:25.140 It's a great laugh.

00:05:26.020 You know who has the biggest laugh?

00:05:27.600 Have you ever heard Jeff Bezos laugh?

00:05:29.500 No.

00:05:29.980 He has the most cartoonish billionaire's laugh.

00:05:34.860 I mean, it's just, it's like a rifle shot.

00:05:36.980 I imagine.

00:05:38.120 It's fantastic.

00:05:38.420 It might be sort of a linear relationship of wealth to how funny everything is.

00:05:47.260 It gets louder and louder.

00:05:50.100 Yeah.

00:05:51.340 Okay.

00:05:52.040 So.

00:05:52.220 Right.

00:05:52.880 There we go.

00:05:53.360 I'm going to get you now. 1.00

00:05:54.580 Two idiots setting up to try and sound intelligent. 1.00

00:05:57.320 I am here with Ricky Gervais. 1.00

00:06:02.200 Ricky, thanks for coming on the podcast.

00:06:04.180 My pleasure.

00:06:04.800 You've, I've traveled a quarter of a mile for this.

00:06:07.320 Yeah.

00:06:07.520 In my office, very near my house in Hampstead, you, you've flown 3,000 miles.

00:06:14.720 Yeah.

00:06:14.860 So guess which one of us is jet lagged?

00:06:17.820 That's good.

00:06:18.720 I have the, I have the advantage.

00:06:20.960 It's an honor.

00:06:21.760 I've, it's, it's.

00:06:22.860 For me too.

00:06:23.440 It's been some years that I've wanted to just meet you and it's been, you know, I just noticed

00:06:28.120 that, uh, it wasn't happening by accident, though we were exchanging emails.

00:06:33.180 So, you know, so I just wanted to make it happen.

00:06:35.320 The day has come and it's, it's a thrill.

00:06:37.480 I'm a bit nervous.

00:06:39.100 You were a professional comedian and I know, but I'm scared.

00:06:42.240 World famous star.

00:06:43.260 I'm scared that us two in a room, we'll egg each other on and we'll say, we'll say things

00:06:48.940 that, that will be, you can't have a subtle argument anymore.

00:06:52.800 Is my, is my point.

00:06:54.000 There's, there's no, there's no place for nuance or, or everything has to be binary for

00:06:59.640 the, for the right people to agree and disagree.

00:07:02.720 And there's no context anymore.

00:07:04.820 No one cares about context anymore.

00:07:06.520 They'll take anything out because it's all about point scoring.

00:07:09.080 So that's why when I, when we're discussing, you know, contentious or having a discussion

00:07:15.320 seems dangerous in the modern world.

00:07:18.780 Well, I want to talk about that.

00:07:20.160 Let's, before we jump into that, I just want to ask you a few questions about just how

00:07:25.820 you got into this position.

00:07:28.180 And so at what point did you become famous and how, how long were you working in comedy

00:07:34.760 before you had to think about the world paying attention to what you were doing?

00:07:38.940 It was, I guess the, it's sort of an accident, a very slow, gradual process.

00:07:44.600 And, and by the time I decided to be a professional comedian, I sort of nearly was one.

00:07:52.040 Cause the, the office came first, right?

00:07:54.360 Well, I actually started standup before the office went out.

00:07:59.560 And I think my first Edinburgh show was while the office, the first series was, was going

00:08:05.140 out on TV.

00:08:05.780 So I certainly started right in the office before I started doing standup to any degree,

00:08:12.240 but they're about the same, but I think it was, it was still relatively late, you know?

00:08:18.680 Okay.

00:08:19.060 Briefly, I was a failed sort of musician, early twenties.

00:08:22.960 I then, uh, eventually got a job, just a job in my twenties.

00:08:29.520 And, um, I worked in an office for like nine years, I think, which is what the office is

00:08:36.320 sort of based on.

00:08:37.240 You know, I, I wasn't taking notes.

00:08:39.920 I wasn't thinking one day I'll be a comedian and I'll write about this.

00:08:43.240 I was thinking this job's near my house and, uh, I've got friends and it's, it's fun, you

00:08:51.140 know, and then, uh, because I worked as part of, it was the admin center for the university.

00:08:58.360 I helped a local radio station get its license by letting them promote to the students and

00:09:04.560 out of the blue, because I got on with them as a tiny little station had just got its license

00:09:09.800 called XFM.

00:09:10.760 They rewarded me with a job.

00:09:12.800 And I, again, it was still an admin.

00:09:14.580 I was the head of speech and they wanted me to, you know, um, write little news things

00:09:19.720 and help out in the office.

00:09:20.960 Just, it was, it was a gift of a job, right?

00:09:24.200 And I was meant to write things for the DJs, you know, what was on that night or bits of

00:09:30.480 the news.

00:09:31.040 And, and because I'm lazy, I thought, I thought, do I have to type this out?

00:09:36.380 Can't I just go on and say it myself?

00:09:37.860 It'd be quicker.

00:09:39.040 And I went, yeah, go on.

00:09:40.160 And I went on and I was funny.

00:09:42.540 I was just myself and I was sort of funny, but a normal guy being funny, never, never thought

00:09:46.780 that this would be my job.

00:09:48.060 And soon I was popping up on three or four different radio shows throughout the day.

00:09:53.880 And it was, it was just the day job with a little bonus, you know?

00:09:57.720 And I think from that, I got, someone was listening.

00:10:01.300 They were starting a new show on channel four.

00:10:04.640 This is 1997.

00:10:06.640 And, uh, it was called the 11 o'clock show.

00:10:08.880 So, so it was sort of like a cutting edge, no hold barred sort of Saturday night live

00:10:15.600 for new comedians and pretty much anything, anything, you'd say what you want.

00:10:21.900 And I went on there a couple of times and, uh, I suppose that's, that was when I thought,

00:10:28.000 oh, this is good.

00:10:29.160 This pays better than a real job.

00:10:31.160 It's less work.

00:10:32.620 It's fun.

00:10:33.460 Um, but still I was thinking, oh, this is, this is not going to last, you know, I'm just

00:10:39.460 doing this.

00:10:40.160 And, and then I thought, no, I'm early enough now to do this full time.

00:10:44.440 And I'd already started, I already had David Brent along with lots of other things that

00:10:48.820 I was doing.

00:10:49.760 Just again, it seemed like I was an amateur comedian all my life.

00:10:54.900 So, so you had David Brent as a character before the office?

00:10:58.020 Yeah.

00:10:58.480 Yeah.

00:10:58.960 And he wasn't called that.

00:11:00.060 It wasn't until, um, you know, he started thinking about it and he's got to have a

00:11:03.440 name.

00:11:04.380 And then there was this sort of nice synchronicity that I was earning enough and didn't have

00:11:08.520 a day job to sort of write the office.

00:11:12.080 And, and it still didn't go out for another two or three years.

00:11:16.580 I went out in July, 2001.

00:11:20.340 And then I also got my own show from the channel four thing as a, as a little spinoff called

00:11:27.060 meet Ricky Gervais.

00:11:28.460 You know, again, it was getting like a million people.

00:11:31.520 And, but I knew I had the office and I knew the office was sort of more important.

00:11:35.660 And I, and I thought, this is the, this is what I want to kick the door down with.

00:11:41.340 And what year did the office air?

00:11:42.980 2001, July the 9th, 9.30 BBC two.

00:11:48.400 So, so when did fame kick in?

00:11:52.460 When did you suddenly?

00:11:54.340 Well, that was, that was certainly, I'd have to say that I would be getting recognized on

00:11:59.560 the streets and have, and see things about me in the news and my picture around.

00:12:03.780 Immediately the first, the first season of the office.

00:12:06.620 Yeah.

00:12:07.080 But still, but to most people, I came from nowhere because all the other stuff was small.

00:12:11.820 I had that, I had a bit of a cult following from the 11 o'clock show.

00:12:16.080 And, but you know, we're still talking a couple of million people watching that.

00:12:20.580 And indeed the first series, the office, I think only got like one or 2 million people.

00:12:25.060 Then it repeated and it became a cult.

00:12:26.960 And then it was like 4 million.

00:12:28.080 And then the first, the first episode of the second season got started at 5 million.

00:12:32.880 So it grew sort of gradually and quickly.

00:12:36.400 But yeah, that was certainly when I thought, oh, okay, I'm a, I'm a professional comedian

00:12:41.700 now with a bit of profile.

00:12:43.240 And, uh, it was creepy at first.

00:12:45.260 In fact, I feared fame before it happened because I was sort of older and wiser.

00:12:51.980 I was like, you're in your forties, right?

00:12:53.880 Yeah.

00:12:53.980 Well, 38, 39 starting.

00:12:56.040 And then after the first year of the office, I think I hit 40.

00:13:00.380 It would have been, yeah, it would have been, yeah, July, 2001.

00:13:04.080 I was, I was just 40.

00:13:05.760 And, uh, it's because I, lots of things, you know, I, I, I didn't want to, people to think

00:13:11.400 that I'd, I didn't want to be lumped in with those people that just wanted to be famous.

00:13:14.780 So I wanted to be clear that this was an upshot of fame.

00:13:17.720 If you become a, if you become a, a successful comedian or actor, you're probably a bit of

00:13:25.340 a famous one just because, you know, and, uh, I never signed that, never signed that deal

00:13:31.020 with the devil, you know, make me famous and you can go through my bin.

00:13:33.980 So I was quite militant about my privacy and probably too much.

00:13:37.980 Now I've, now I, now it's cool.

00:13:39.400 Now I don't care, you know?

00:13:41.180 And, uh, I also thought it was, it would be an injustice for people to tell lies about

00:13:45.780 me because I thought my reputation was everything, you know?

00:13:48.720 And now I think it's still important, but I realized that reputation is what strangers

00:13:52.940 think of you, you know, and characters, what your friends know you are.

00:13:56.440 And so I don't care anymore.

00:13:58.040 Now I hear things about me, I think, who cares?

00:14:00.200 No one cares.

00:14:01.160 No one cares.

00:14:02.200 Yeah.

00:14:02.380 Well, I mean, people certainly pretend to care.

00:14:06.440 They give a, a good semblance of caring.

00:14:09.700 So, yeah, but then if that's like, that's like, it really, if you, if you take, you

00:14:15.540 know, social media, not just social media, you know, now lazy journalism, the worst bit

00:14:21.120 of clickbait for me is so-and-so said a thing and people are furious.

00:14:25.400 No, no, they're not.

00:14:26.200 0.001% of people are furious. 0.99

00:14:28.860 The rest of us don't give a fuck. 0.96

00:14:30.700 And we wouldn't even know about it if you hadn't made it a headline and shown two tweets 0.99

00:14:34.620 as an example, you know?

00:14:36.260 So that's the problem.

00:14:37.480 If you take what social media is saying, you might as well go and visit every public toilet

00:14:43.160 wall in the world and, and get offended by what they've written.

00:14:46.460 Right.

00:14:46.600 You know?

00:14:47.000 Except there's, there are now real world consequences to this kind of amplification.

00:14:51.420 Of course.

00:14:51.780 Well, that's exactly what it is.

00:14:53.140 Twitter's, I mean, Twitter's become more and more of a cesspool and you just mustn't,

00:14:58.680 you mustn't take it seriously.

00:15:00.840 You've got to treat it like it's virtual.

00:15:02.480 And I don't, I don't get a lot of stick really.

00:15:05.160 I see some people that it's like they're, they're keeping back a mob with a, with a

00:15:11.640 flaming torch.

00:15:13.440 It seems to me that you have created a persona for yourself that inoculates you against the

00:15:20.180 worst part of this.

00:15:21.580 I mean, so you, well, first of all, comedians in general have a little more latitude than

00:15:26.600 normal people make.

00:15:27.400 A comic can get away with something that a politician could never imagine saying.

00:15:30.780 Traditionally, traditionally, historically, but now it's like, it's like, it's worse to

00:15:36.040 make a joke about a bad thing than to do the bad thing.

00:15:40.560 Yeah.

00:15:41.260 So I want to, I want to talk about that, about whether comedy has become more dangerous, but

00:15:45.900 I also want to notice that I do think you are, you're, you're managing to fly above or

00:15:53.060 below the radar in a way that I feel like other comics aren't because you, I mean, I don't

00:15:58.500 know if you understand the physics of it, but I feel like you are more bulletproof than 0.90

00:16:04.120 most, partly because you don't appear to give a shit about the back, any kind of backlash.

00:16:10.060 Well, that has to be the perception, I think, for a comic, because as soon as, as soon as 0.97

00:16:18.080 you start apologizing to the, the mob, you might as well give hecklers the stage because

00:16:24.860 that's all they are, they're hecklers and, um, you, you've got to be in charge and, and

00:16:29.340 I think I, I, if I have achieved that, I've achieved it for lots of reasons that's, that's

00:16:33.560 happening under the water.

00:16:35.940 That is, I try and make my stuff bulletproof so I can defend it.

00:16:40.060 I don't go out there and go, I'm going to say what I want and offend who I want and

00:16:43.160 I'll ruin the day and I'll under, I'll, I'll undermine the moral fabric of society and I

00:16:47.680 don't care.

00:16:48.800 I'm not like that at all.

00:16:50.480 When these, these jokes, these routines hit, you know, Netflix or BBC, they've been, they've

00:16:58.160 been tested on people around the world.

00:17:00.520 They've been honed.

00:17:01.280 But then there's been a sea change in people's attitudes.

00:17:04.980 Of course.

00:17:05.660 Are there any jokes that you once did and could have fully defended at the time, but

00:17:11.560 now wouldn't do?

00:17:12.880 Has anything fundamentally shifted for you?

00:17:15.180 Well, I think the, the big impossible feat through, through recent changes is you can make

00:17:22.980 your jokes bulletproof at the time, but now you have to make them bulletproof for 10 years

00:17:27.740 time just in case there's a-

00:17:30.740 Or 10,000 years time.

00:17:32.200 Exactly.

00:17:32.960 Yeah.

00:17:33.360 You know, people have-

00:17:33.640 It's never going away.

00:17:34.500 John Wayne was cancelled 40 years after he died recently for, for not being woke enough

00:17:39.680 in 1971.

00:17:41.120 Just how woke did you expect John Wayne to be?

00:17:44.720 I know, exactly.

00:17:45.780 I know.

00:17:46.160 Yeah, exactly.

00:17:46.880 Yeah.

00:17:47.440 Disappointed.

00:17:48.200 In, in, in, in an interview for Playboy magazine, no less.

00:17:52.480 Right.

00:17:53.120 It's like, people reading Playboy nowadays are going, this is, this isn't woken up, you

00:17:57.920 know? 1.00

00:17:58.560 So, but you, you can't, you can't legislate against stupidity. 1.00

00:18:01.860 You can't legislate against the future. 0.99

00:18:04.480 All you, all you can hope is that people understand, like, um, I talk about this in

00:18:09.060 my new show, Supernature, about the cancel culture, that it's not enough to apologize anymore

00:18:14.720 and move on.

00:18:15.320 People want blood.

00:18:16.060 People want you ruined because it's a point scoring competition now. 0.99

00:18:19.620 So Kevin Hart did some shitty, childish, homophobic tweets 10 years ago, right? 0.99

00:18:24.820 About, oh, I hope my son's not gay, right? 1.00

00:18:26.560 At the time he got a backlash.

00:18:27.840 I said, oh, sorry.

00:18:28.340 I didn't mean like that. 0.80

00:18:29.100 I was just being silly.

00:18:30.020 Really sorry.

00:18:30.560 Deleted them all.

00:18:31.860 Then he gets the job of his life, you know, last year, um, hosting the Oscars.

00:18:36.920 The tweets come back up, the mob on Twitter going, what about these tweets?

00:18:39.900 You're trying to get homophobe.

00:18:41.480 You're going to, you cannot, the Oscars, you go, oh, just apologize again, Kevin.

00:18:45.940 He goes, no, I can't keep apologizing.

00:18:47.660 I said sorry and I can't keep apologizing.

00:18:49.740 So he lost the job.

00:18:51.140 Now he's got a point really, because if there's no value in saying sorry and changing and progressing

00:18:59.640 and evolving, why bother?

00:19:01.900 He might as well just do those tweets again.

00:19:03.340 And it's really counterproductive.

00:19:06.600 Also, if the apology isn't sincere, I mean, that's the, actually, I want to talk, let's

00:19:13.260 table that for a second.

00:19:13.920 I want to talk about what I am thinking about as kind of the physics of apology.

00:19:18.320 I mean, just how can people redeem themselves?

00:19:20.640 What, what should constitute an adequate apology?

00:19:23.920 Before we get there, I want to, I want to just stay on this, this issue of, of dredging

00:19:28.540 the, the past in search of controversy.

00:19:31.360 Because I, this did almost happen to you recently.

00:19:34.280 It was more targeted at Louis C.K.

00:19:36.720 But so you had that interview show where you did, where you sat down with Louis C.K.

00:19:40.680 and Chris Rock and Jerry Seinfeld.

00:19:42.260 Yeah.

00:19:42.660 And you guys used the N-word and you were, you were discussing why it is that, that only two

00:19:48.380 of you ever use the N-word and the other two of you never do, but you're using the N-word

00:19:53.160 in the, in the context of having this discussion, right?

00:19:56.660 And then this gets exported to social media in, in, in, in media in general, in the most

00:20:03.380 inflammatory framing.

00:20:04.880 I mean, the thing that was, in my view, totally exculpatory, and it was exculpatory at the time.

00:20:11.040 I mean, I don't remember you getting grief at the time for this.

00:20:13.120 It was like 2011.

00:20:14.280 No.

00:20:14.440 Yeah.

00:20:15.060 Was that you were explicitly referencing one of the most famous bits of comedy ever is

00:20:21.620 that Chris Rock's bit about the N-word, you know, there are black people and then there

00:20:25.420 are ends and he goes, goes back and forth.

00:20:27.740 And me and Jerry were saying we never use that.

00:20:29.960 Right.

00:20:30.380 Right.

00:20:31.000 And then, and, and, and Louis C.K. does.

00:20:32.940 And then Chris, he and Chris were going back and forth about, about that.

00:20:36.440 And, you know, I think Chris said that he was, he was black or something.

00:20:38.940 I mean, so, but it was, it was, the most important point is that at no point was there an indication

00:20:46.960 that anyone there was a racist or would ever use this term to express racism, right?

00:20:54.820 Of course.

00:20:55.420 Yeah.

00:20:56.060 And.

00:20:57.080 And, and, and the, and the person who got the brunt of it, of course, was Chris Rock for

00:21:00.920 allowing.

00:21:02.320 Yeah.

00:21:02.780 He, he, you know, the uncle Tom, he helped midwife this atrocity. 0.93

00:21:06.480 Yeah.

00:21:06.880 His, his, that was the headline.

00:21:08.720 And, uh, uh, the rest of us was sort of like collateral damage, but, um, he was the,

00:21:14.240 he was the one that got, that got the real hate.

00:21:18.000 Well, I mean, the thing, the thing that is.

00:21:19.640 Well, and Louis.

00:21:20.800 And Louis, yeah.

00:21:21.380 Because of, obviously.

00:21:22.920 They were trying to find other reasons to bury him further.

00:21:25.080 Exactly.

00:21:25.640 Yeah.

00:21:25.900 Yeah.

00:21:26.580 Well, I, I actually, I want to talk about that as well, but you heard, you must've

00:21:30.900 heard what happened to, um, this guy, Jonathan Friedland at, at Netflix, the communications

00:21:36.160 director at Netflix.

00:21:37.740 No.

00:21:37.960 Um, okay.

00:21:39.020 So he, I probably do, but I, this is probably now a year old.

00:21:42.320 I mean, this, the story is, didn't get a lot of press, but it's so emblematic of what

00:21:47.860 has gone wrong in this moment.

00:21:49.560 So I just want to kind of get your intuitions on it, but the comic Tom Segura, who has a

00:21:54.620 couple of Netflix specials, very funny guy who in his latest special used the word

00:22:00.880 retard or retarded. 0.99

00:22:02.740 Oh, I do know about this, but I can't remember the details. 0.99

00:22:04.900 Go on.

00:22:05.240 Okay.

00:22:05.400 So he used this word and there, there was a lot, a lot of blowback.

00:22:10.660 The, I mean, Netflix got lots of grief from, you know, parents with, with kids with mental

00:22:15.020 disabilities.

00:22:15.760 And, and so they had this sort of emergency meeting of the, you know, the top brass at

00:22:21.420 Netflix.

00:22:21.800 So it's this Reed Hastings, the CEO and, you know, the 10 people under him and this

00:22:26.560 guy, Jonathan Freeland, who was their communications director.

00:22:29.960 And he said, listen, we've all been blindsided by this.

00:22:33.460 You know, who knew this, it was this bad, but apparently the word retard is as bad as the

00:22:40.500 N word, but he used the word, right? 0.94

00:22:42.860 He said, it is as bad as, as this word for the black community.

00:22:46.700 And we just have, we have not, you know, understood this yet.

00:22:50.420 So we have to, so he's, he's using it in the spirit of saying, this is how bad it is.

00:22:56.060 He used the word, he used the, he used the R word in full or he used the N word in full.

00:23:01.080 Right.

00:23:01.540 He used the N word in full to illustrate how bad the R word is.

00:23:06.820 But again, it was in the service of saying, this is how woke we have to be.

00:23:13.560 This is how scrupulous we have to be.

00:23:14.960 This is, we have to figure out how to navigate this such that we make amends and don't offend

00:23:20.800 any more people.

00:23:21.700 Right.

00:23:22.060 But his uttering those magic syllables, again, in a context where not only was he not expressing

00:23:28.600 racism, he was expressing the most energetic anti-racism, right?

00:23:33.260 He got fired.

00:23:34.540 Yeah.

00:23:34.960 They fired him because the magic syllables had been used in that context.

00:23:38.600 And I happened to find myself at dinner with him just randomly at a dinner party and had

00:23:43.340 not heard the story.

00:23:44.280 So I'm hearing it directly from him and his wife in the, you know, maybe two months after

00:23:48.800 he'd been fired.

00:23:50.220 And it seemed to me they hadn't, they hadn't even absorbed what had happened to them.

00:23:55.400 Right.

00:23:55.600 So I'm asking him, I said, well, wait a minute.

00:23:57.920 So did anyone in that room, you know, did Reed Hastings or anyone under him or even any

00:24:02.440 of the millennials at Netflix who were calling for your head, did anyone think you're a racist?

00:24:08.780 And he said, oh, no, no, no, no.

00:24:12.260 And, but he hadn't, it's like, he hadn't even absorbed the implications of that.

00:24:16.000 It's like this, this was a human sacrifice to a taboo.

00:24:19.680 Of course.

00:24:20.000 And it seems to me that we have to pull back from us.

00:24:22.460 Well, that's interesting as well.

00:24:23.900 But then, but then again, there's something comforting in that because a lot of people,

00:24:30.600 if that had happened to me and I'd been fired and lost my livelihood, I'd still want people

00:24:35.540 to know that actually I wasn't a racist.

00:24:38.780 That would still be the worst bit for me, for people to think I was a racist.

00:24:43.520 Oh, yeah.

00:24:43.940 So I get, so that, that to me is like a little light at the end of the tunnel that, okay,

00:24:49.280 I'm fired, I've lost my, but at least I'm not a racist.

00:24:52.540 And that's what people know, the power of it.

00:24:55.320 They know it's the worst thing to be and accuse someone of.

00:24:59.760 Yeah.

00:25:00.220 And that's the, that's the, do you know what I mean?

00:25:02.260 Yeah.

00:25:02.520 So that's the power people have when there's a, when there's a, you know, a lynch mob out

00:25:08.820 to get someone.

00:25:10.200 People do sacrifice good people because they can't get to the bad people.

00:25:15.040 But that, that's what's so perverse about this circumstance because what it's selecting

00:25:18.640 for politically, especially are the bad people who don't care about being called racist.

00:25:25.320 Because everyone, everyone that's being fired and publicly embarrassed about a misdemeanor

00:25:32.980 and being called a Nazi, there are real Nazis who are getting away with it.

00:25:38.640 Just waiting for the job.

00:25:40.020 Exactly.

00:25:40.440 Yeah.

00:25:40.580 This must be amazing for real racists, right?

00:25:44.660 To be out there and going, it's all right. 0.96

00:25:46.420 Everyone's a racist now.

00:25:47.980 This is a great smokescreen.

00:25:49.600 I mean, we've got, we've got people out there calling people who aren't Nazis, Nazis, which

00:25:53.920 makes us look, they don't know, they don't know the real Nazis from the people who said

00:25:58.600 the wrong thing once, you know.

00:26:00.940 It's a happy accident, I think.

00:26:03.380 And it plays into the hands of the genuinely bad people.

00:26:06.900 There are real racists and there are real Nazis and there are people who are oppressing,

00:26:10.820 actually oppressing people and causing harm.

00:26:12.960 And then the people who joke about these things, who are the poster boys, they get the brunt

00:26:19.320 of it.

00:26:20.060 It just makes the world slightly worse.

00:26:22.860 All right.

00:26:22.980 I want to swing back into social media and controversy for a second.

00:26:26.720 But I have another question about fame.

00:26:29.200 Have you gotten too famous for your own comfort?

00:26:32.840 If you could reel it back and be less famous or be differently famous, would you?

00:26:37.880 I mean, how much does fame complicate your life?

00:26:39.560 Well, sort of.

00:26:39.580 But then that's like saying, I want to be able to turn it on and turn it off.

00:26:43.300 I like getting a seat in restaurants, you know, but I don't like people looking at me when

00:26:50.320 I'm shopping for pants.

00:26:51.760 Well, that's sort of tough.

00:26:54.040 So all I can do is demand.

00:26:55.300 All I want is the same rights as anyone else.

00:26:58.460 That's all I want.

00:26:59.600 You know, the money sorts out the privilege.

00:27:02.840 Right.

00:27:03.140 Now I just want.

00:27:04.160 But no, I think I am.

00:27:07.400 You know, I don't call it.

00:27:08.600 I don't.

00:27:08.900 I know I can.

00:27:09.460 I can.

00:27:10.320 I live in a place where I can walk around and I'm not bothered.

00:27:13.740 You know.

00:27:14.140 Now, how how different is that from city to city?

00:27:17.860 Are there cities like if you go to L.A. or New York, are you bothered more than in London?

00:27:21.720 I'm not bothered because I'm not bothered because I'm I'm a 58 year old in a stable relationship

00:27:30.980 who doesn't do drugs or gamble or break the law or go to you know, I don't I'm not an

00:27:37.260 interesting I'm not interesting.

00:27:39.440 But you must get the incessant demand for selfies and.

00:27:43.620 Yeah.

00:27:43.780 And that's nice.

00:27:44.680 I never I never refuse.

00:27:46.380 And that's that.

00:27:46.760 It's always that's nice, you know, because I hear stories of some of some of some of some

00:27:51.120 and so, you know, a person who's genuinely likes your work and they think they know

00:27:56.020 you and they have to pluck up a bit of courage to ask for a selfie.

00:27:59.300 And I see they're nervous.

00:28:00.240 And and I also thank you very much.

00:28:02.340 My pleasure.

00:28:03.360 And that that's not that to me isn't being bothered.

00:28:06.980 That's being a person.

00:28:09.220 That's being a human being.

00:28:10.740 You know, if I wasn't famous and someone asked for help that didn't take anything,

00:28:16.560 I do it anyway.

00:28:17.680 You know, have you got change?

00:28:19.080 Yeah, I have.

00:28:19.700 Yeah.

00:28:19.780 It's not like you don't walk away going, what a great person I am, you know, so that's

00:28:24.660 enough that that that means it's no skin off my nose.

00:28:27.980 And so you're in a restaurant eating with friends and people come up to the table and

00:28:32.920 interrupt your dinner asking for a selfie.

00:28:35.460 Again, slightly annoying that they haven't they haven't read the situation right again.

00:28:39.480 But usually I'm really left alone in restaurants because people get there.

00:28:42.820 They get it.

00:28:43.560 I could go to places and be bothered.

00:28:45.080 If I went to some sort of loud, drunken bar at 11 o'clock, I'd be bothered.

00:28:52.160 If I go to a posh restaurant, I'm not bothered because you sort of create your safe spaces.

00:28:58.640 We get on to that.

00:28:59.140 So, no, it doesn't really bother me.

00:29:03.480 There is a level of fame that's clearly paralyzing or at least deranging of a normal life where the people like, you know, I guess it may correlate with some of the variables you just checked off as not having.

00:29:15.560 I mean, being, you know, whatever the, you know, the Justin Bieber level of fame is or the, you know, the, the Lady Gaga level of fame.

00:29:23.900 Well, that's crazy.

00:29:24.480 Yeah. 0.84

00:29:24.720 It's like a crazy teenager.

00:29:26.000 You can't get out of the car because there's 100 people waiting for you and, you know, and you have to hide and wear beards.

00:29:32.220 Yeah.

00:29:32.520 You know, that's correct.

00:29:33.420 I haven't I haven't got that because I haven't got that demographic.

00:29:36.700 That's a big difference.

00:29:38.320 Yeah.

00:29:38.840 I mean, I also haven't got that sort of ice.

00:29:42.380 I see comedians who they caught it.

00:29:45.960 They say horrible things and scummy things and they get they get scummy people and then they get annoyed when they're scummy people that they've pander to act like scummy people.

00:29:56.120 Now, all my fans are I like to think are normal, but they're not crazy.

00:30:02.440 So I haven't I haven't propagated that sort of environment.

00:30:05.900 Do you know what I mean?

00:30:06.380 I mean, I'm not I'm not on telly all the time.

00:30:09.700 If I go to a I might play with 10,000 people, but I'm in the car before they're out of the door.

00:30:15.880 If I went if I started stage diving, it'd probably get a little bit hairy. 0.83

00:30:19.980 You know what I mean?

00:30:21.280 That would be hilarious.

00:30:22.340 It's exactly.

00:30:23.960 Yeah.

00:30:24.640 Do it.

00:30:24.900 Do it once just for the image.

00:30:26.600 Exactly.

00:30:27.240 So as much as I sort of fear it and I'm probably a little bit phobic about and I joke about, you know, the general public. 0.96

00:30:34.880 I treat I ironically treat him as scum and say things like that. 0.95

00:30:39.940 And that's it. 0.99

00:30:41.240 There's some of the I don't mean it.

00:30:42.860 They know that I I appreciate my fans more and more, actually, as I get older.

00:30:47.740 And and that's what makes you bulletproof.

00:30:50.400 Well, that that comes through.

00:30:52.220 But it's interesting that you so you have that layer of I don't know if this is on some level, you know, the David Brent persona or there's a few of your personas that that you use comedically where you're above everyone.

00:31:05.680 Exactly.

00:31:05.960 And yet the joke's on you.

00:31:07.240 Right.

00:31:07.500 Right.

00:31:07.720 Well, that's the important point.

00:31:08.600 So traditionally, a comic is a court jester.

00:31:13.660 They're down in the mud with the people making fun of the king carefully.

00:31:19.120 You don't get off with his head.

00:31:22.280 And so we have to be low status.

00:31:26.000 Now, nowadays, people know what comedians like me earn.

00:31:30.140 Yeah.

00:31:30.460 It's hard to be low status on a Gulfstream.

00:31:32.640 Exactly.

00:31:33.500 Right.

00:31:34.220 So what do I do?

00:31:35.200 I do it in two ways.

00:31:36.740 One, I invite them in.

00:31:38.780 I let them look behind the curtain.

00:31:40.100 I go, what, you think it's brilliant being rich and famous all the time?

00:31:43.160 Well, look at this.

00:31:44.340 And, you know, I say it's not all.

00:31:47.520 Look how I embarrassed myself in front of the queen or the first time I took a private jet, they thought I was the cook.

00:31:53.820 So I let them in and go, I'm one of you.

00:31:57.180 Right.

00:31:57.380 I know I shouldn't be here, but it's like I'm taking the piss and it's not all roses.

00:32:02.900 The other way I get low status is I talk about things where they're better off than me, genuinely. 0.62

00:32:11.040 I talk about being old and I'm going to die soon. 0.79

00:32:13.160 I'm fat. 0.88

00:32:14.120 I'm going bald.

00:32:15.580 I've got, you know?

00:32:16.400 Right. 0.99

00:32:16.820 I've got distended testicles. 0.99

00:32:18.740 So I do that. 0.99

00:32:20.960 And then, you know, you can sort of get away with more.

00:32:26.840 You know, they get it.

00:32:27.920 They get the joke.

00:32:28.720 And I think that's preferable to lying.

00:32:31.880 I think that's preferable to me going out there and pretending to be on welfare or pretending to still care about this or that.

00:32:38.900 So I joke about being rich and I do it arrogantly so that hopefully they get the irony.

00:32:46.640 Right.

00:32:47.240 Right.

00:32:47.860 It's a great position to be in because you're, you get all of the benefits of being honestly appreciative of your fans and you get all of the fun of playing that other layer of pseudo arrogance.

00:33:02.980 Yeah, but also, but also there's a part of me that says, honestly, if I can do it, anyone can.

00:33:11.060 They know that I probably worked hard and they know that I probably had something.

00:33:16.820 But it is quite an inspirational story, really.

00:33:20.680 A fat working class kid from Reading who suddenly makes it at 39. 0.97

00:33:25.480 That's quite a good story.

00:33:26.920 It's not like I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I had privilege and I, do you know what I mean?

00:33:33.000 There's nothing to be jealous of with me. 0.99

00:33:36.400 They look at me up there in my bad jeans and fucking sweat stained black T-shirt drinking Fosters out of a can. 0.99

00:33:42.800 And they go, I don't want to be him. 0.99

00:33:45.240 I want his money, but I don't want to be him.

00:33:47.920 You know, they can laugh.

00:33:50.380 They can laugh about it because we have to be the butt of the joke, really.

00:33:53.420 And with all that arrogance and with me playing the war story, I'm always the butt of the joke.

00:33:58.020 If you look into it, I'm being childish.

00:34:01.360 If I'm winning, I'm smugly being a child.

00:34:05.780 Is there an example of a comedian who has a fundamentally different geometry to their comedy who you would compare yourself to?

00:34:13.820 Well, there are comedians that don't go there with themselves.

00:34:16.400 They go out in a suit and they do puns and they're good at what they do, but those jokes are as good to read.

00:34:24.780 You almost don't need them there.

00:34:26.920 So my stuff can't be stolen, if you know what I mean.

00:34:31.500 It's not syntax and semantics.

00:34:34.480 It's attitude.

00:34:36.380 It's a mood.

00:34:37.340 It's a man as angry about the world as we are.

00:34:41.200 You know, it's almost not about the lines.

00:34:45.400 There's a narrative, you know.

00:34:47.720 And it's interesting what you thought about persona, right?

00:34:50.580 Because that's the other thing, the problem that some people don't get.

00:34:54.140 It is a persona.

00:34:55.700 It's a persona as much as David Brent, but it's just more subtle because I use it as my own name.

00:35:01.100 So I treat the audience with a lot of respect in that I want them to be smart enough to know when I'm saying something I mean and when I'm saying something I don't mean.

00:35:11.320 And I almost explain that in my newsroom, Supernatural.

00:35:14.660 I come up and I do a joke and I go, that's irony.

00:35:17.960 That's when I say something I don't really mean.

00:35:20.580 And you as an audience, you laugh.

00:35:22.820 You're laughing at the wrong thing because you know what the right thing is.

00:35:25.840 And I explain it at the beginning.

00:35:27.400 You also have that bit in Humanity where you go through a list of jokes that you would never tell while telling the joke.

00:35:34.880 Of course.

00:35:35.480 And again, I've set them up.

00:35:36.500 I've warned them.

00:35:37.900 I've warned them.

00:35:39.040 I almost challenge them to be offended.

00:35:41.700 And of course, they're not because they're ready for it.

00:35:45.460 And then people say, ah, but the problem with irony is some people don't get it.

00:35:49.160 And I go, yeah, that's true.

00:35:50.620 And I go, so someone can be laughing for the wrong reasons.

00:35:53.760 And I go, yeah, yeah, I don't know what I can do about that.

00:35:56.240 Because if you water the irony down so much that it's not irony anymore, I might as well go out and say racism's wrong, isn't it?

00:36:01.480 And get a round of applause.

00:36:02.840 Well, that's great.

00:36:03.800 That's lovely.

00:36:04.820 But it's not funny.

00:36:07.220 No, no.

00:36:08.260 So you want to sort of, to me, comedy is an intellectual pursuit.

00:36:12.320 And as soon as you start, you know, pandering or wanting everyone to give you a round of applause because they agree with you,

00:36:18.940 then you've lost something comedically.

00:36:20.680 And I think you've got to be a bit cleverer with it than just going out there.

00:36:26.000 And it's not my problem who's at the back. 0.97

00:36:29.480 You know, when you play the 10,000 people, there probably is a rapist and a Nazi. 0.85

00:36:35.080 And, you know what I mean?

00:36:35.780 What sort of door policy is that? 0.97

00:36:37.840 As you come in, have you ever raped anyone? 0.96

00:36:39.520 You're not coming.

00:36:40.380 It's like I'm not responsible for the people at my gig.

00:36:44.320 I'm only responsible for what I say.

00:36:46.280 I'm not responsible for how they take it.

00:36:48.540 Do you know what I mean?

00:36:49.200 And the intention behind what you say should be what's most important.

00:36:55.800 I mean, what you're honestly attempting to communicate, if your speech somehow misfires,

00:37:00.960 if you use the wrong word in the wrong context.

00:37:03.120 I mean, I think there was a, someone told me about this.

00:37:06.600 This may be closer.

00:37:07.880 I think this is a British story, which this must be very well known to you.

00:37:11.240 And it's, I'm going to botch it because I'm from America, but wasn't there a comic who

00:37:17.640 recently used the phrase colored people in the U S saying colored people puts you in

00:37:26.560 the South in 1963. 0.88

00:37:27.960 I mean, you're just a straight up racist, but people of color is the perfect phrase, right? 1.00

00:37:34.180 But, but, and to get that wrong is, is enough to have your auto de fe. 0.92

00:37:38.700 It would have to be, it would have to be, it's about intent.

00:37:42.260 I think if you, if you were going around saying colored nowadays, it's hard to believe you

00:37:49.460 haven't heard that we've moved on.

00:37:51.680 Right.

00:37:52.160 It could be genuine.

00:37:53.400 Yeah.

00:37:53.640 It could be, it could be a genuine mistake.

00:37:55.140 Cause I remember, I remember when it was the polite thing to say.

00:37:58.760 And then when I say that people thought it was too harsh saying black, you know, there's

00:38:03.540 people with good intentions and, and of course, if things change, then it's a bit odd that

00:38:10.080 you militantly stick to words that people have moved on from, but it depends whether

00:38:16.040 it's genuine or not.

00:38:17.020 It's, I think it's all about intent.

00:38:19.340 It's all about context and intent.

00:38:20.940 Well, I mean, the reason why it should be about intent, I mean, it's not that you can't

00:38:24.880 cause harm that you don't intend and, and, and, and, and one should feel sorry about that.

00:38:30.520 But the crucial bit is that the fact that you didn't intend it is the indicator that

00:38:36.780 you're not the sort of person who will cause those harms in the future.

00:38:40.840 I mean, like, you're like.

00:38:41.740 In 10 years time, this podcast will have us two saying the C word, colored. 0.76

00:38:46.940 Yeah, right.

00:38:47.720 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:48.120 You know, yeah.

00:38:48.740 And so.

00:38:50.140 There's already another C word too.

00:38:51.820 I have a list of C words now. 1.00

00:38:53.500 You can say cunt because you're in the UK. 0.98

00:38:55.800 Well, I try and explain, again, I try to explain to Americans that, that how it doesn't hold 0.99

00:39:00.120 the same misogyny in England.

00:39:01.900 It's a term of affection. 0.99

00:39:04.340 Saying cunt to a woman would be a bit, I'd never say that because it's just, it just seems 0.99

00:39:09.420 too, and I'm sexist for not saying cunt to a woman, but I try and stress that it's so 1.00

00:39:15.500 far removed from female genitalia in context in England. 0.99

00:39:21.860 And we call it, we say it to men for two reasons. 0.99

00:39:25.480 One, we hate them.

00:39:27.460 Two, they're our mate. 0.99

00:39:28.860 I was in Edinburgh once and two policemen walked past and they said, oh, Mr. Gervais, 1.00

00:39:35.740 you're a funny cunt. 1.00

00:39:36.660 I said, thank you very much. 1.00

00:39:38.120 It's a term of endearment as well, you know, but there is no misogyny.

00:39:41.660 It's, it's, in fact, it's almost the other way that you don't use it to, you know, so

00:39:47.340 it's very, very complicated nuance, but it, and that's the problem with social media as

00:39:52.140 well.

00:39:52.380 It doesn't, it doesn't know international boundaries.

00:39:54.840 So when I, when I tweet from London, that's different.

00:39:59.740 For all time in every culture.

00:40:01.740 Yeah.

00:40:01.940 Everywhere.

00:40:02.380 Yeah.

00:40:02.460 Of course.

00:40:03.100 Yeah.

00:40:03.320 And we, we have to be educated and, and I'm a fan of political correctness per se, that

00:40:09.120 I don't say the wrong, I try to not say the wrong, I don't want to be taken the wrong

00:40:13.060 way.

00:40:13.240 I don't want people to be offended.

00:40:14.280 I don't want people to think that.

00:40:15.120 Well, you're a fan of civility.

00:40:16.680 Civility.

00:40:17.140 Exactly.

00:40:17.480 Yeah.

00:40:17.780 Yeah.

00:40:17.980 Political correctness, like other things, has been, has been mugged and, and changed.

00:40:21.460 And now there's a new word for it.

00:40:23.140 It's woke and, and all that.

00:40:24.960 But yeah, I, if, if someone says, oh, we have a new term for that now, I go, good, good.

00:40:30.960 Yeah, fine.

00:40:31.780 Just let me know.

00:40:32.500 I didn't get the memo, but now I've got the memo.

00:40:35.080 I'd be a psychopath to still go around using the wrong term.

00:40:40.780 All right.

00:40:40.880 Well, I'm, I'm feeling the, the, the tractor pull of controversy is, is irresistible, but

00:40:45.600 I have, I have one left field question to ask you because I'm now, because I'm going

00:40:50.660 to forget it if I, if I don't do it in thinking about this interview, I, um, stumbled upon

00:40:57.240 a, an interview you did with Gary Shandling on YouTube, which was fascinatingly off kilter.

00:41:04.020 And I don't, I don't, I couldn't tell how much was being played consciously for comedy

00:41:10.020 and how much was truly awkward.

00:41:11.660 I think he was, I, uh, I don't know what to say here.

00:41:15.520 Cause I've sort of, he, I don't, I don't think he was quite himself.

00:41:20.100 Really?

00:41:20.240 He was, he was in a bad place.

00:41:23.640 And he talks about it after, there's a thing on YouTube where he talks about it.

00:41:27.180 He says, I, um, he, he was trying to do a thing and it, it sort of went wrong.

00:41:32.440 What happened was he, uh, invited me to be on his, the, some sort of anniversary box set

00:41:40.260 behind a DVD extra behind, uh, Gary Shandling, uh, of Larry Sanders, you know, as a fan.

00:41:45.800 Right.

00:41:46.200 And I said, Oh, I'll do a thing with you as well.

00:41:49.160 Well, I'm at it.

00:41:49.800 I was going to do my, I did a thing where I was doing my three comedic heroes, which was

00:41:53.260 him, uh, Larry David and Christopher Guest.

00:41:55.820 And I did, um, I did those three.

00:41:58.540 There's a conspiracy theory that goes around that after the Gary Shandling, I canceled the

00:42:03.420 series.

00:42:03.920 It was only three.

00:42:04.860 I said, you do that then.

00:42:06.320 Like, no, that's it.

00:42:07.780 People think that you do, you do it as you go along, you know, cancel the series.

00:42:12.640 Um, so, uh, I think it might've been the first one.

00:42:16.740 Oh no, Larry, I did, um, I did Larry David and then, uh, I did him and went there.

00:42:21.060 I mean, he had that whenever I didn't know him.

00:42:23.360 I met him once very briefly, but social awkwardness was part of his comedy.

00:42:28.460 I know.

00:42:28.800 But off hair, he told me that he was in therapy five days a week.

00:42:33.980 He had five different therapists.

00:42:35.860 When we got there, his crew couldn't find him.

00:42:39.160 He was sort of, he was, and then he came in.

00:42:42.060 And he says he thought he was recording for his thing at first.

00:42:48.040 There's a thing on YouTube where he talks about it.

00:42:50.200 Look it up.

00:42:51.180 Um, um, I can't remember what it was, but he explains it all.

00:42:54.320 And it was still, it was still fun.

00:42:56.220 I left it all in, you know, people think that it was a stitch up.

00:42:58.940 I go, no, I edited it.

00:43:00.260 Right.

00:43:01.080 You know, I edited it.

00:43:02.600 I left it.

00:43:03.240 It's like, you know, that's what that's like on this podcast.

00:43:05.920 Occasionally I get people attack me as though they've caught me saying something on this

00:43:11.360 podcast.

00:43:11.740 Like I, like I had a chance to take my foot out of my mouth.

00:43:14.700 Of course.

00:43:15.420 I know.

00:43:15.820 No, we left it in because it's the, and also it didn't feel awkward. 1.00

00:43:20.780 It felt like two people, two idiots sparring. 0.97

00:43:24.000 Well, it felt, it was a weird, it felt like there were sort of comedic egos jockeying for 1.00

00:43:30.540 status a little bit.

00:43:31.680 I said, I said at the beginning that he's my hero.

00:43:33.600 Yeah.

00:43:33.840 Well, yeah.

00:43:34.140 But then, but then it was also, it was not clear that what he was playing for comedy

00:43:39.580 and, and kind of, kind of faux status or whether he was, he actually didn't know who you were

00:43:47.660 to the degree that, that most viewers would assume in that, at that moment.

00:43:51.260 Yeah.

00:43:51.440 But he was, he was teasing me as well.

00:43:53.380 He was trying, he was trying to get something going, even, you know, even after the initial

00:43:57.120 thing where he says he didn't realize, I mean, then we had, then we had, it was like foreign

00:44:01.440 and we were, we were sort of having fun.

00:44:03.200 And then we had breaks and he, and he told me lots of stuff that he'd been through and

00:44:07.760 then we got back to it, you know?

00:44:08.900 So it was just funny, it's funny to be to, you know, as a, an enormous fan of yours to

00:44:15.460 just have a document there and an enormous fan of his, to have a document there where

00:44:20.160 the two of you are, are collaborating and to actually not know how to interpret what's

00:44:26.640 going on.

00:44:27.020 I mean, it's a kind of a weird sort of cognitively straining document.

00:44:29.600 But it was like, we were doing it cause it was funny and interesting and we were winding

00:44:34.040 each other up.

00:44:35.020 Right.

00:44:35.380 But then it seemed like there were moments where it was, it could have been taken personal.

00:44:39.200 I love that.

00:44:39.300 I love that awkward.

00:44:39.860 I, in fact, you know, I could have put in the bits where, that we, where we stopped and

00:44:45.720 we were sort of normal and nice to each other.

00:44:47.460 But where's the fun in that?

00:44:48.940 Anyway, there were lots of conspiracy theories that he, he owned me and he hated me.

00:44:53.580 He didn't.

00:44:54.240 He invited me to be on his DVD, you know?

00:44:56.880 And then, and then he, yeah, there's a great thing that you should find it is speaking

00:45:00.400 about it.

00:45:00.840 And he says that he got the energy wrong and he was trying something else and, and he

00:45:06.040 put it, you know, and then he, he, and it's funny cause when I got back with it, the broadcaster

00:45:11.960 went, oh my God, this is really great.

00:45:13.940 You should do a new intro saying, oh, he was, he was weird.

00:45:17.620 And it was, I was going, no, I'm not doing that.

00:45:19.540 No, I'm not doing that.

00:45:20.480 It's just, it's, it's, he had, he had a bad day and, you know, but yeah, it's, it's

00:45:27.320 odd what people hold up.

00:45:29.840 It's like, it's the owned.

00:45:31.100 Yeah.

00:45:31.580 Is it owned on Twitter?

00:45:34.420 Really?

00:45:35.580 Owned?

00:45:38.780 So, all right.

00:45:40.440 So we, we've put our toe in the water a bunch here, but let's just focus for a moment on what

00:45:46.800 social media is doing to us.

00:45:48.460 So you do seem to more or less just have a good time, at least not like the public facing

00:45:55.580 on social media.

00:45:56.140 I mean, you're very engaged.

00:45:56.760 No one's ever genuinely hurt my feelings on Twitter.

00:45:59.680 That would be impossible.

00:46:00.740 Right.

00:46:01.180 It's like the, the, the, the, the analogy I use is I'm walking down the street and there's 1.00

00:46:07.500 a guy living in a bin covered in shit. 1.00

00:46:10.580 Right. 1.00

00:46:11.460 And he shouts at me, you can't, am I going to get upset at that?

00:46:16.500 I'm going to keep walking.

00:46:17.580 I'm like, I'm not going to.

00:46:18.460 I'm not going to, you know, I might take a picture.

00:46:26.920 But that's a resuite.

00:46:28.260 Exactly.

00:46:29.180 Yeah.

00:46:29.980 No.

00:46:30.420 But you do, you do.

00:46:31.300 So let's just walk through this somewhat systematically.

00:46:34.340 So you do respond to people occasionally.

00:46:36.900 Some.

00:46:37.240 Some.

00:46:37.740 I mean, the truth is I don't get that sort of, again, I don't know why, but I don't get

00:46:42.860 it.

00:46:42.980 I think I, yeah, I have no idea why.

00:46:45.440 Sometimes I have to look for it.

00:46:46.980 Sometimes I search things to look for.

00:46:48.840 If I, if I'm doing a new bit, I'll put in a couple of words and find a mad thing, you

00:46:54.040 know?

00:46:54.200 And I talk about that.

00:46:55.000 And someone said, Dan once said, why do you only retreat the maddest examples of, you

00:46:59.800 know, fundamentalist Christians? 0.69

00:47:01.040 And I go, because a sensible Christian is not funny. 1.00

00:47:04.960 Whereas someone who just says, oh, I've got spirituality and yeah, live and let live.

00:47:10.100 There's nothing funny about that. 1.00

00:47:11.260 Whereas someone that says, I hope you get raped by Satan. 1.00

00:47:14.640 That's funny. 0.99

00:47:15.800 That's why I choose that comedy is an exaggeration.

00:47:19.160 It's not my job to be fair, to be fair.

00:47:21.920 It's like, is it funny?

00:47:23.140 Well, now, is there a problem though, when you retweet someone to whatever it is, what

00:47:28.300 are you, a 20 million or something?

00:47:29.760 Yeah, 30 million.

00:47:31.920 So is there a problem that, are you encouraging the Twitter mob to go after this person who?

00:47:38.060 Well, I am a bit careful because you don't want that.

00:47:42.160 So I try and do it with good humor.

00:47:45.420 Now I hardly do it at all.

00:47:47.940 Was there any point at which you felt your engagement with social media was out of balance

00:47:53.600 and just, and complicated in your life and you, of course, correct?

00:47:56.680 No, wasting time.

00:47:57.920 It gets away, because it's fun.

00:47:59.320 It's interesting.

00:48:00.500 I can, you know, I can sit there and go through and, and I use it as a, I use it in many ways,

00:48:06.020 right?

00:48:06.520 I think number one, I use it as a, a marketing tool.

00:48:11.260 13 million people who get an email.

00:48:13.720 That's a good, that's really good.

00:48:16.140 Yeah.

00:48:16.400 I mean, and on that level, it, it may just be unavoidable.

00:48:20.780 I mean, when you have a, when you have a new show and you need to put tickets on sale, 0.78

00:48:23.820 it would be idiotic not to have a Twitter channel.

00:48:28.580 I don't spend anything on my gigs of pure profit because I don't have to spend anything on advertising. 0.52

00:48:34.820 You know, they, they, they sell out around the world, you know?

00:48:38.200 So there's, there's that, right?

00:48:40.020 Why would I not use that? 1.00

00:48:41.540 That's, it'd be crazy for me to shut that down because there are a couple of idiots. 0.99

00:48:45.700 I use it as market research as well, because that's not a sample. 0.99

00:48:50.820 That's the world.

00:48:52.460 You know, if a hundred, 200 is a good sample, then 13 million, pretty much as it is.

00:48:58.700 That's how it is.

00:49:00.120 They're still the echo chamber because they're presumably following me for a reason.

00:49:02.760 And, you know, I can't, but it's very good for putting out jokes and finding the ambiguity

00:49:09.180 because someone out there will go, do you mean this?

00:49:11.520 And you go, ah, I didn't know it was ambiguous.

00:49:13.020 That's good.

00:49:13.640 I'll change that.

00:49:14.440 And so it's good for joke writing.

00:49:16.460 It's good to reduce.

00:49:18.940 I like that restriction of characters to, you know, it's no good for nuance.

00:49:24.960 It's no good for, so you've got to be manipulating that sample.

00:49:29.280 You've got to go, hold on.

00:49:30.880 So this person doesn't get it.

00:49:32.040 Does that mean there's something wrong with the joke? 1.00

00:49:33.660 Or does it mean they're an idiot? 1.00

00:49:34.980 Usually it means they're an idiot. 1.00

00:49:36.680 You know, you don't, you don't care about, if 10,000 people are laughing, you don't care 1.00

00:49:40.820 about one heckler.

00:49:42.180 It'd be madness to throw, ah, I'll lose that joke.

00:49:44.780 And also it's a disservice.

00:49:46.500 Sometimes I've explained the joke to people and the people who got it are angry. 1.00

00:49:50.740 They go, don't fuck it. 1.00

00:49:51.760 We got it. 1.00

00:49:53.000 You know, don't.

00:49:53.600 And I, it's the same. 0.99

00:49:54.300 When a comedian apologizes, I go, ah, fucking don't apologize. 0.95

00:49:57.320 That's, you know, so you can't please everyone. 0.98

00:50:01.340 You shouldn't. 1.00

00:50:01.820 You can't legislate against stupidity and you shouldn't, you know. 1.00

00:50:05.020 Well, so, but you, so you're, again, I'm trying to find the ways in which you are, you seem 1.00

00:50:10.480 to be uniquely immune to the pain here because, you know, like many people.

00:50:16.200 What do you mean by I'm unique?

00:50:17.860 I don't, I don't know.

00:50:19.340 I'm not sure that's true.

00:50:20.800 Is it because I act like I am or my response is or I shouldn't be, I've survived terrible

00:50:27.180 controversies I'm defiant against?

00:50:30.940 So, yeah, it's just, so it's one, the public perception of you not getting as much blowback

00:50:39.080 as other people would.

00:50:41.320 Because I'll tell you why it's not the public perception.

00:50:42.920 That's the point.

00:50:43.700 If you're on Twitter, you think that there's a war going on.

00:50:47.180 You think, if you go onto Twitter and you go, you hit the right buttons, right?

00:50:50.800 It's like you're watching Game of Thrones.

00:50:53.020 It's like the world is full of Nazis versus anti-Nazis.

00:50:58.080 It's TERFs versus trans activists. 0.75

00:51:02.360 You go out in the real world, it's not.

00:51:04.920 They don't exist.

00:51:06.380 It's like this 1% that's in your phone.

00:51:10.140 And that's the terrifying equality that someone living in a bin can do a tweet and the next 0.59

00:51:16.440 tweet is Richard Dawkins.

00:51:18.240 And you go, oh, look, they're the same. 0.99

00:51:19.940 They're not the fucking same. 1.00

00:51:21.740 One's a moron. 1.00

00:51:24.060 So that's the problem. 1.00

00:51:25.980 So when you go on to these things and it blows up like it's a...

00:51:30.040 But you pick Richard Dawkins as a perfect example of somebody who has obviously complicated

00:51:36.380 his life by his use of Twitter.

00:51:38.440 And there's certain tweets he has sent, which I think had you sent them, it wasn't merely

00:51:45.200 that the joke was poorly crafted in his case.

00:51:47.920 It's that he functions by a different physics of reputation management than you do.

00:51:53.580 Well, my name comes up a lot on Twitter when there's ever controversy, right?

00:51:58.160 At a politicians' summit and people defend and go, oh, no, Ricky Gervais says these things,

00:52:03.300 which is right.

00:52:04.280 But I want to go, well, hold on, let's look at it.

00:52:05.760 There's lots of variables here.

00:52:07.720 One, I'm good at it.

00:52:08.580 I'm good at my job, right?

00:52:10.560 I've thought about this joke.

00:52:12.000 This isn't me going out and saying the wrong thing.

00:52:14.360 Two, you could say, well, that's not a joke.

00:52:16.480 I make jokes about those things, but that's not a joke about the thing.

00:52:19.780 That's someone advocating the thing.

00:52:22.060 And there's another big difference there.

00:52:24.360 Is it a joke, first of all?

00:52:26.340 Was it a bad joke?

00:52:28.240 That's another thing.

00:52:29.140 If you're dealing with really contentious, the more emotive and contentious the issue

00:52:33.640 is, the funnier the joke's got to be.

00:52:35.260 It's got to be perfect, yeah.

00:52:35.720 Yeah, you know, you've got to go, oh, I get it.

00:52:38.920 And again, I talk about this on Humanity, that people often get offended by, let's say,

00:52:44.220 a joke.

00:52:44.600 Let's talk about jokes, actual jokes, people saying things they don't really mean for

00:52:49.480 a comic effect to elicit a laugh, right?

00:52:52.700 People get offended when they mistake the subject of a joke with the actual target.

00:52:59.460 So some people think that something shouldn't be joked about, which is clearly not true.

00:53:05.960 So, and they do that because they think, and there's lots of stages here.

00:53:10.220 They think that, so if it's a bad thing, if it's a joke.

00:53:14.840 Auschwitz.

00:53:15.540 Yeah, exactly.

00:53:16.720 What's the target of the joke?

00:53:18.980 Is it people being killed? 1.00

00:53:21.780 Or is it about a stupid misunderstanding? 1.00

00:53:26.100 Or is the Nazi that, there's lots of ways this can be okay. 1.00

00:53:31.200 You can make jokes about race without being racist.

00:53:34.520 We don't have to get to, you know, is it a racist joke or not?

00:53:37.740 It can be just a joke about race, and everyone knows that you can make a joke about race without

00:53:42.280 being racist.

00:53:43.000 It seems to me that there are comics, though, that have completely changed their act in response

00:53:49.220 to how thin-skinned everyone has become.

00:53:52.580 Again, you know, I sort of get it.

00:53:55.640 You know, you have those thoughts.

00:53:56.920 You say, oh, I'm dealing with irony, and I used to play the right-wing bigot, and everyone

00:54:02.480 got it, but now, right-wing bigots are in charge, so is it the right thing to do?

00:54:08.480 So I have to find a way where I can still make these sort of jokes, and people get them,

00:54:13.020 and, you know, so there's a, I do feel there's a responsibility to at least try to get the

00:54:17.480 right target, and hope people get it.

00:54:19.800 So I get that, and sometimes, and then I get why people go, oh, it's just not worth it.

00:54:23.840 No one understands me.

00:54:24.860 I'm getting shouted at, and my friends don't get it either, and I want to be in this club.

00:54:31.020 I get it.

00:54:32.800 I don't want to give up.

00:54:34.000 I don't want to give up.

00:54:34.820 I want people to understand it, and I try.

00:54:37.680 If anyone else says, I'll explain the joke.

00:54:40.180 I'm happy to explain the joke, because I love the intellectual pursuit.

00:54:43.500 I love to say to someone, no, no, I'll give an example.

00:54:47.040 So, the Golden Globes, and now that's the only chance I get to write one line.

00:54:52.560 If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at

00:54:58.120 SamHarris.org.

00:54:59.700 Once you do, you'll get access to all full-length episodes of the Making Sense podcast, along

00:55:04.020 with other subscriber-only content, including bonus episodes, NAMA's, and the conversations

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00:55:22.560 Thank you.

00:55:23.560 Thank you.

Making Sense - Sam Harris - July 12, 2019

#163 — Ricky Gervais

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