Making Sense - Sam Harris - August 14, 2019


#165 — Journey into Wokeness

Topics
groups coming attention changing social norms false allegations of rape death row glass ceiling
Hosted by
Sam Harris
Mentioned
Caitlin Flanagan Rosa Brett Kavanaugh Michael Barbaro Matt Damon Ben Sasse Samantha Guthrie Steve Bannon Naomi Wolf Covington Trump Kirsten Gillibrand Dean Martin-style Phyllis Schlafly Jeffrey Epstein Lindsey Graham David Remnick Cillian Murphy Nora Ephron Cary Grant and 6 more
#164 — Cause & Effect #166 — The Plague Years

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 1 minute

Words per minute

178.03

Word count

10,938

Sentence count

681

Harmful content

Misogyny

58

sentences flagged

Hate speech

37

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of the Making Sense Podcast, host Sam Harris sits down with a friend to discuss the value of space, time, and attention, and how they can work together to make sense of the world around us. Sam Harris is a writer, philosopher, and bestselling author. His work has been featured in The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, and The Huffington Post, and he is a regular contributor to The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and Salon. He is also the host of the podcast, The Making Sense podcast, and is a frequent contributor to NPR. Sam is a professor of philosophy at the University of Southern California, where he teaches courses in philosophy, philosophy, and the philosophy of the mind. His work is widely known and appreciated by many, including many of his students, but he is also well-loved by many others. In this episode, we discuss the importance of time and the role that it plays in shaping our understanding of reality, and of the ways in which we can access it, and in particular, in our day-to-day lives. We also discuss the role of space and time in shaping the way we think about the world and our relationships with other people, and with the things we care about and care about in the world we encounter in the moment. What is it like to be in space? What does it mean to be a place or place? and how does it affect our perception of time? What are the benefits of being in space and time and attention and space in relation to each other? And what does it have to do with the world and what is it means to us and how we should do with it? How does it all work together? This episode concludes with a question that we can begin to understand the relationship between time, space, space and space ? in order to be more meaningful and the time we have in the present moment and its value? Sam s answer to that question? Join us in this episode: by listening to this episode! to find out what it means, and to learn more about time and space, and what we can do with them of the things that matter to us, and why they matter what they really matter and why we should have more of them and where they are most valuable the most important thing we should be?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:08.820 This is Sam Harris.
00:00:10.880 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber
00:00:14.680 feed and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation.
00:00:18.420 In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at
00:00:22.720 samharris.org.
00:00:24.060 There you'll find our private RSS feed to add to your favorite podcatcher, along with
00:00:28.360 other subscriber-only content.
00:00:30.600 We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support
00:00:34.640 of our subscribers.
00:00:35.900 So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one.
00:00:46.740 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:48.800 This is Sam Harris.
00:00:51.160 Okay, well, a major housekeeping seems to be in order, but it is big enough that I think
00:00:58.080 I will do it separately.
00:01:00.380 So this housekeeping will be brief.
00:01:02.800 I just want to say a few things about the app.
00:01:05.620 We are finally releasing the groups feature.
00:01:08.840 I know I promised that a few weeks back.
00:01:11.420 That's rolling out this week with the new update.
00:01:15.780 And we'll go kind of week by week with progressively larger cohorts of the subscribers.
00:01:23.380 So if you don't get it immediately, that's what's happening.
00:01:27.520 You will eventually get it.
00:01:29.520 We just don't want to break anything.
00:01:31.260 So anyway, groups are coming.
00:01:34.640 And in lieu of housekeeping, I wanted to present a lesson that was recently released on the app.
00:01:41.360 And this lesson is titled Space, Time, and Attention.
00:01:45.040 So enjoy that, and then I'll be back with today's guest.
00:01:55.420 I'd like you to consider what is real in this moment.
00:01:59.560 That is, what actually exists?
00:02:02.600 And what of the things that exist actually matter?
00:02:06.620 And what makes things matter?
00:02:09.280 We tend to think of reality in terms of space and of things in space.
00:02:15.440 We think of people and places that matter to us.
00:02:19.240 We accumulate possessions, things in drawers and closets that we care about or once cared about.
00:02:27.140 We move from room to room in our homes into spaces that we maintain for different purposes.
00:02:33.160 So the sense of what is there for us in each moment is bound up with this sense of space.
00:02:41.340 And we have digital lives that take place in virtual spaces.
00:02:45.600 And we can now see distant places on Earth in real time without having to travel.
00:02:51.200 We can communicate with people who are elsewhere.
00:02:53.720 But they are real to us by reference to their being in space.
00:02:58.660 And if you believe that God exists, well, then the question becomes, where?
00:03:03.940 The reality of anything seems to entail its existence in space.
00:03:09.020 And it's because abstract quantities like numbers violate this principle
00:03:13.420 that their existence becomes so hard to think about.
00:03:16.960 In what sense does the number seven exist?
00:03:20.740 That becomes philosophically interesting and even inscrutable
00:03:25.240 because existence is so bound up with our sense of space.
00:03:31.380 And time hovers over all of this like a ghost.
00:03:36.220 In one sense, it's another abstraction based on the reality of change.
00:03:40.620 All things that exist seem to change.
00:03:44.660 And one thing causes or cancels another.
00:03:48.500 It's based on these changes that we form a picture of time.
00:03:52.720 Now, we can get closer to the truth by importing time into our thinking about things.
00:04:00.560 We can think in terms of processes rather than things.
00:04:04.300 We can turn nouns into verbs.
00:04:07.600 You as a person are not really a thing.
00:04:11.240 You're a process.
00:04:12.640 You're a stream of actions and experiences.
00:04:15.960 And your moment-to-moment engagement with the world of things and ideas changes you.
00:04:20.320 You acquire new skills and opinions and desires and concerns.
00:04:26.380 You're not precisely who you were yesterday.
00:04:29.260 And you don't exactly know who you'll be tomorrow.
00:04:32.640 And look at what matters to you.
00:04:35.240 Your relationships.
00:04:37.060 A relationship isn't a thing.
00:04:39.960 It's built upon experiences with another person.
00:04:44.140 And a career isn't a thing.
00:04:46.800 And your health isn't a thing.
00:04:49.040 Everything you experience is made of moments in time.
00:04:53.880 But the real significance of time is not what happens on the calendar or on the clock, but in our minds.
00:05:02.120 The true source of profundity is attention.
00:05:06.120 That is the cash value of time.
00:05:08.860 We all know what it's like to guard our time, but then to squander it by not paying attention to that which would have made the time we guarded valuable.
00:05:18.340 It's always amusing to see a group of people who've decided to be together for whatever reason.
00:05:23.400 Perhaps they're having lunch in a restaurant, but most or even all of them are buried in their phones.
00:05:29.260 The real coincidence of space and time that is meaningful is attention.
00:05:36.040 Think of some possession or place that you love.
00:05:40.060 Some quantity of space that gives you pleasure.
00:05:43.660 Perhaps it's a work of art you have on your wall.
00:05:46.640 Or a piece of jewelry.
00:05:48.160 Or a place in nature.
00:05:50.100 A beach or a mountain.
00:05:52.480 Perhaps there's a restaurant or bookstore that you'd be sad to know you would never see again.
00:05:58.020 Let's say you maintain this connection to this object or place for the rest of your life.
00:06:03.380 What is its real significance?
00:06:05.640 How is it possible to grasp it and take pleasure in it?
00:06:09.540 How can it matter to you?
00:06:12.240 All of this is a play of attention.
00:06:15.740 This object or place exists for you and matters to the degree that it captures your attention.
00:06:22.980 Precisely to that degree.
00:06:24.580 You like to look at it or hold it or think about it.
00:06:29.300 The real pleasure isn't in the object.
00:06:32.620 It's in your mind.
00:06:34.120 It's a matter of what it feels like to give this thing your attention.
00:06:39.700 And this is where meditation reveals its real power.
00:06:43.600 True profundity is to be found not in guardian space or even time.
00:06:50.120 The real profundity is being able to use attention in a way that is truly rewarding.
00:06:57.180 You're only as free as your attention is.
00:07:00.660 If you're lost in thought, even in a holy place, on a holy day, or in formal meditation,
00:07:08.900 or on your honeymoon, or at a child's birthday party, or at work,
00:07:13.500 you might as well be anywhere.
00:07:16.160 Because for that moment, you are well and truly lost.
00:07:19.740 If, on the other hand, you're recognizing the nature of consciousness,
00:07:24.160 it also doesn't matter where you are or what time it is.
00:07:27.880 Because the moment is profound.
00:07:30.580 It's in this middle place where you're distracted with the objects and people and places that matter to you.
00:07:37.300 Where it really does seem to matter what you have and where you are.
00:07:42.820 Your attention is bound up with what you're seeing and hearing and thinking
00:07:46.880 in a way that plays upon your preferences and your hopes and your fears.
00:07:52.340 Think of the moment when you notice that your new car is dented.
00:07:56.760 Or the jacket you love has a ketchup stain on it.
00:08:00.840 Or your checking account has less money in it than you expected.
00:08:04.680 The team you were rooting for just won the championship.
00:08:09.220 Or you just finished a project that you've been working on for months.
00:08:12.900 Or happy hour just ended, but the waiter will still take your order.
00:08:17.300 And those are the best tacos on earth.
00:08:19.800 We mostly live in this place, with attention bound up with what we want and what we don't want,
00:08:26.120 what we expect, what we're surprised to find.
00:08:29.480 And then our minds continually wander into thoughts about the past and the future.
00:08:33.640 And in our wandering, we lose awareness of the very things we want
00:08:37.980 and have been busily gathering and guarding and may even have in hand.
00:08:43.500 That best taco on earth hits your tongue and you taste it, sort of,
00:08:49.340 and then your attention races away to something else in space or time.
00:08:53.620 Or merely within the space and time of your imagination.
00:08:56.380 Think about what matters and how it's possible for something to matter.
00:09:02.660 Many of us have thought about what we would grab from our homes in a fire.
00:09:06.760 Just imagine it.
00:09:07.520 Your family is safely on the street and you have a chance to grab something.
00:09:12.400 What would it be?
00:09:13.300 Photos?
00:09:14.300 A computer?
00:09:15.540 Your father's watch?
00:09:17.040 You can't fit much in your hands.
00:09:19.560 In some sense, we're always in this situation.
00:09:23.780 We're always deciding what to grasp.
00:09:27.380 What matters?
00:09:28.900 What is worth paying attention to in this moment?
00:09:32.960 Because you can only pay attention to one thing at a time.
00:09:36.700 And it's only meditation that gives you a choice about what to grasp and what to let go of.
00:09:43.320 It's as though we continually wake up in the burning house of the present,
00:09:48.020 only to find that we're holding and even struggling under the weight of some worthless object.
00:09:54.180 That's what bickering with your spouse is like. 0.64
00:09:57.520 That's what rumination is like.
00:10:00.600 That's what most of our worrying is like.
00:10:03.840 That's what comparing ourselves to others is like.
00:10:07.760 That's what envy and regret are like.
00:10:11.140 That's what pride is like.
00:10:15.100 I mean, really?
00:10:16.440 The tape gallery was on fire, and rather than rescue a Picasso or a Da Vinci,
00:10:21.580 you risked your life to grab some chairs from the coffee shop?
00:10:25.140 Without a meditation practice, you will just find yourself holding something,
00:10:31.940 staggering under some burden again and again,
00:10:35.760 reacting to something, brooding about something,
00:10:38.860 fixating on something,
00:10:41.680 helplessly,
00:10:43.080 without a choice,
00:10:45.180 without the possibility of choice.
00:10:49.100 Meditation is nothing more or less than the art of choice.
00:10:53.980 It's the art of paying attention to what really matters.
00:10:57.500 Okay, so that is a lesson from the Waking Up course,
00:11:06.460 and if you want more information about that,
00:11:09.260 you can find it at wakingup.com.
00:11:12.160 And another thing that I'm now doing in the course,
00:11:15.820 I've begun interviewing other meditation teachers
00:11:18.660 and trying to get to the bottom of what they teach and why they teach it.
00:11:23.100 These will be deep dives into the minutiae of consciousness
00:11:27.840 and what can be gleaned about it from first-person methods,
00:11:34.380 whether they be contemplative or psychedelic or philosophical or otherwise.
00:11:41.100 And now for today's guest.
00:11:44.340 Today I'm speaking with Caitlin Flanagan.
00:11:47.340 Caitlin is a really great writer.
00:11:51.100 She writes now mostly for The Atlantic, it seems,
00:11:53.700 but she's been on staff at The New Yorker and The Wall Street Journal.
00:11:58.080 She's won a National Magazine Award.
00:12:00.380 She's also written for Time and Oh! The Oprah Magazine,
00:12:04.580 The New York Times and The Los Angeles Times.
00:12:06.520 She is a deeply irreverent and clever social critic.
00:12:14.500 She has two books, Girl Land and To Hell With All That, 0.98
00:12:19.800 and it was great to finally get her on the podcast.
00:12:22.300 I've been a fan of her work for many years,
00:12:24.520 and we had not yet met,
00:12:26.540 and the podcast provided an occasion to finally sit down and talk.
00:12:31.580 And here we certainly do our best to make trouble for ourselves.
00:12:34.440 We talk about the Me Too movement and feminism and immigration,
00:12:42.640 affirmative action, the whole college admissions racket.
00:12:46.840 We basically steer toward every third rail we can think of.
00:12:50.860 Anyway, I had great fun in the conversation,
00:12:53.120 and now without further delay, I bring you Caitlin Flanagan.
00:13:00.640 I'm here with Caitlin Flanagan.
00:13:02.360 Caitlin, thanks for coming on the podcast.
00:13:03.520 Thanks for having me.
00:13:05.000 So, I'm a huge fan.
00:13:07.480 I've been reading you for quite some time,
00:13:09.680 and you seem to touch so many controversial issues,
00:13:16.220 and you do it in a way that it seems,
00:13:18.220 I mean, I can only imagine that some things blow back on you,
00:13:22.460 and you may regret having touched a particular topic,
00:13:25.680 but is there anything that you,
00:13:27.080 any area you've gone into that you regret touching?
00:13:31.280 Never.
00:13:31.580 It's funny, I talk to a lot of young women writers about this.
00:13:36.940 It's almost become like a part of my day every day.
00:13:39.380 There's a few of them I know well,
00:13:41.180 and they're writing really interesting stuff,
00:13:44.300 really important stuff,
00:13:45.580 and they're having such a hard time with the blowback and the response.
00:13:50.660 And I try to tell them what nobody told me in the beginning,
00:13:55.680 which was it doesn't matter.
00:13:57.320 It absolutely doesn't matter,
00:13:59.380 not just from a standpoint of the largeness of a life,
00:14:03.020 you know, that do you want to get to the end of the life where you didn't say what you thought?
00:14:06.720 I don't think you do.
00:14:08.380 But even in the immediate sense,
00:14:10.220 it's not going to hurt your career that people are really angry.
00:14:13.240 It's going to make your writing more noisy,
00:14:15.140 and people are going to be driven to it.
00:14:17.900 And then inevitably, in that drive of people to your work,
00:14:21.840 some of them are going to find that they really love your work,
00:14:24.140 and that's going to expand the reach.
00:14:25.700 So I've certainly, well, the one that I got the most, it's interesting.
00:14:31.600 I wrote a big, huge Atlantic cover story a long time ago,
00:14:37.480 like maybe 2006.
00:14:39.820 It was a nanny story? 0.92
00:14:40.920 Yes.
00:14:42.340 I remember handing that to my wife.
00:14:45.020 I'm not even sure.
00:14:46.760 I knew who you were as a writer,
00:14:48.120 but I hadn't read much of your stuff.
00:14:50.900 And I remember handing it to her like,
00:14:53.000 this is going to detonate in your hands.
00:14:55.260 It's just like, I don't think I spun it one way or the other.
00:14:58.720 It's just, let's just see what this does to your brain.
00:15:01.100 But it was, yeah, I can imagine that was intense.
00:15:03.620 So summarize what your position was there,
00:15:06.500 and maybe back up for a second
00:15:07.560 and just give our listeners a sense of the types of topics
00:15:10.280 you've tended to touch,
00:15:11.500 and then let's go to the nanny story.
00:15:14.100 I guess I would say,
00:15:15.720 well, I'm interested in politics always,
00:15:18.100 and I'm interested, although I am a self-hating Democrat,
00:15:21.480 I'm really interested in the endless hypocrisy of the left.
00:15:23.900 I just think it's, it's just,
00:15:26.280 I just try to have a comical attitude toward it
00:15:29.400 because it's just so extreme.
00:15:33.400 But, so I'm interested in that.
00:15:34.720 I'm interested in that.
00:15:36.260 I'm interested in boys.
00:15:37.300 I'm interested in girls.
00:15:38.440 I'm interested in being a mother.
00:15:40.060 I'm interested in just,
00:15:41.180 I've always just followed the things
00:15:42.580 that are kind of emanating from my own private life
00:15:45.620 and just kind of tried to put them.
00:15:47.780 I love social history,
00:15:49.080 so I love knowing why you do a certain thing
00:15:52.340 that you just thought was coming completely
00:15:53.840 from your own convictions,
00:15:55.820 and then you realize,
00:15:56.560 no, there's actually a history to this,
00:15:57.940 and it was 20 or 30 years,
00:15:59.260 and this happened, and that happened.
00:16:00.600 So they're kind of small kitchen table subjects,
00:16:04.720 but a few years,
00:16:06.680 is this too long?
00:16:07.520 No, no, no.
00:16:08.160 A few years ago,
00:16:10.020 I went to Santa Monica Public Library
00:16:12.720 because they have great bound editions of old magazines
00:16:15.000 instead of having to, you know,
00:16:16.740 microfilm or whatever,
00:16:18.200 and they have all these back issues of Time Magazine,
00:16:20.820 and so I got a bunch from, like,
00:16:22.400 I think the 1980s,
00:16:23.560 and I went through them,
00:16:24.780 and it was amazing how many of the stories
00:16:27.420 they thought were the big stories
00:16:28.540 they got it wrong,
00:16:29.440 like hurricanes that I didn't remember
00:16:31.800 until they said it,
00:16:32.940 you know, attempted coups that,
00:16:34.640 you know, yes, it was newsworthy.
00:16:36.000 Was it a cover story?
00:16:37.060 Was it that big?
00:16:38.160 No, but every single story on private life
00:16:41.140 just rang true.
00:16:42.840 You know, that's the record
00:16:43.940 of how we live our lives.
00:16:45.980 That's the record of, you know,
00:16:47.940 when you come back home
00:16:48.860 and the door is closed
00:16:49.720 and it's you and the people you live with,
00:16:51.080 if they're your family,
00:16:52.520 you know, the choices that you make
00:16:54.820 and the things that you buy
00:16:56.260 and the ways that you spend your time,
00:16:58.840 the things that people really talk about
00:17:00.880 after they finish talking about
00:17:02.480 what they think they're supposed to talk about,
00:17:04.940 that's what I like to write about.
00:17:06.260 Well, on that point,
00:17:07.100 it's been a while since I've looked at it,
00:17:08.480 but did you ever see the,
00:17:09.300 the multi-volume history of...
00:17:13.540 A Private Life?
00:17:14.240 Yeah, A History of Private Life, yeah.
00:17:15.780 Yeah, it's a French series.
00:17:17.300 Yeah, yeah, I've got all of them, yeah.
00:17:19.200 But you're often accused of being
00:17:20.900 an anti-feminist by feminists, right?
00:17:23.680 So let's sort out that question.
00:17:26.780 What is, what's the allegation
00:17:28.440 and what provokes it in your work?
00:17:31.280 Well, the allegation I don't think
00:17:32.880 is precisely enough stated
00:17:34.680 and I've changed a lot with time,
00:17:36.320 but my thing with feminists, 1.00
00:17:38.600 so I was born in 1961,
00:17:40.000 so I'm 56 or 57.
00:17:43.200 You may be 58 this year.
00:17:45.020 Right, that's what it's going to be.
00:17:46.620 My husband just told me that.
00:17:47.620 Yes, it's 58 in November.
00:17:48.840 Thank you.
00:17:49.480 The math gets harder.
00:17:50.580 Yeah, well, it's been hard
00:17:51.900 from the very beginning for me.
00:17:53.720 But I was just always,
00:17:57.660 I grew up in Berkeley,
00:17:58.940 very lefty place,
00:18:00.060 very lefty parents,
00:18:01.200 very lefty experience.
00:18:02.700 Were your parents professors?
00:18:04.040 My father, yeah,
00:18:04.900 a historian and a writer,
00:18:06.180 and it was in the English department.
00:18:07.600 But when the 80s came along,
00:18:09.860 and so feminism was part 1.00
00:18:10.960 of this very happening,
00:18:12.940 like, legitimate attempt
00:18:15.080 to really change the world.
00:18:17.700 And it was interesting to me.
00:18:20.040 And a lot of things
00:18:21.220 started being talked about,
00:18:22.760 you know, when I was an adolescent,
00:18:24.920 you know, people,
00:18:25.540 it was the very beginning
00:18:26.540 of women talking about rape 0.86
00:18:28.160 and about things you had to do.
00:18:29.860 You know, before it was all in metaphor.
00:18:31.880 It was all coded language, you know.
00:18:34.640 Oh, a boy might get fresh with you, 0.85
00:18:36.520 or this might happen,
00:18:37.500 or that might happen.
00:18:38.960 This was the beginning of women 1.00
00:18:40.560 really talking about rapes.
00:18:42.140 And I remember just as a teenager,
00:18:43.380 they weren't talking about date rapes
00:18:44.600 or any intimate partner rape.
00:18:46.440 But I remember as a teenager,
00:18:47.880 I think this is important, you know.
00:18:49.540 I need to know about this.
00:18:51.260 Because your mother would always tell you,
00:18:53.420 and you need to not do this,
00:18:54.560 and you need to not go there.
00:18:56.360 And my father would say certain things.
00:18:57.940 But they wouldn't say,
00:18:59.840 because some man may grab you 0.96
00:19:01.960 and attack you
00:19:02.800 and force sex upon you. 0.99
00:19:04.300 They just wouldn't say it that directly.
00:19:06.620 It was,
00:19:06.980 I don't know if it was rude,
00:19:08.440 or just,
00:19:09.900 I don't know what it was.
00:19:10.800 But I remember thinking,
00:19:11.380 this is all very important.
00:19:13.080 But then,
00:19:14.740 when it got to be the mid-80s,
00:19:16.200 and then it became about
00:19:17.400 that it was equally,
00:19:20.200 well, the whole idea of feminism 1.00
00:19:21.260 is it's kind of a Marxist premise.
00:19:23.040 All of women are a class. 1.00
00:19:24.860 Okay, you know,
00:19:26.080 that's true in some areas.
00:19:27.480 The vote is true. 0.51
00:19:28.640 Abortion, it's true.
00:19:30.460 But then it became about this idea
00:19:32.280 that getting this Yale graduate
00:19:34.960 a job at this investment bank
00:19:36.580 is really an important feminist issue. 1.00
00:19:39.220 It's just like this white woman 1.00
00:19:40.360 that was raised,
00:19:42.120 you know,
00:19:42.520 maybe middle class,
00:19:43.380 maybe upper middle class.
00:19:44.920 She went to a top college,
00:19:46.420 and now it's good for all of us
00:19:48.320 that she work in this callow industry,
00:19:51.040 and that we promote her,
00:19:52.860 and that,
00:19:53.680 and it's really criminal
00:19:54.780 that she doesn't have enough child care
00:19:56.580 to get this important investment banking work.
00:19:59.000 It's criminal that she's not a partner
00:20:00.480 in the law firm.
00:20:01.400 And I just thought,
00:20:02.000 this is totally bogus,
00:20:03.500 because now,
00:20:04.120 now we're not a class.
00:20:05.860 Now we're somehow going to push
00:20:07.420 the very top white women 0.69
00:20:09.560 into these careers
00:20:11.140 that I certainly wasn't interested in.
00:20:13.000 Who did them?
00:20:13.520 You know,
00:20:13.640 I'm not really interested
00:20:14.400 in the investment bankers of the world,
00:20:15.960 and I certainly don't see it as some,
00:20:17.740 and it wasn't as though,
00:20:18.540 once we're in the investment banks,
00:20:20.520 then we'll fund the revolution.
00:20:22.340 It was like,
00:20:23.100 once we're in the investment banks,
00:20:24.100 then we can buy the beach house
00:20:25.340 and not have to have our husband
00:20:26.320 be the one to choose it.
00:20:27.580 So I thought that was really bogus
00:20:29.660 and stupid, 0.90
00:20:31.520 and I think now there's a big element
00:20:33.180 of a grift in feminism
00:20:34.480 that any kind of mistake
00:20:37.320 that a man makes, 0.99
00:20:39.080 any,
00:20:40.020 like the New York Times,
00:20:40.880 I mean,
00:20:41.040 they're really,
00:20:41.640 you cannot single any story out
00:20:43.400 for particular banality,
00:20:44.800 but this one,
00:20:45.740 it was about the space,
00:20:48.200 you know,
00:20:48.640 going to the moon in 68.
00:20:50.060 Yeah.
00:20:50.560 And it was like,
00:20:51.800 this was a program
00:20:52.980 by and for white men.
00:20:55.100 And then there was another article
00:20:56.140 where it was actually Russia
00:20:57.340 that had won the space race,
00:20:58.440 because they were the first
00:20:59.320 to put a black man into space. 0.92
00:21:00.820 Right.
00:21:01.060 And I just thought,
00:21:01.940 this is the most,
00:21:02.700 but like the New York Times,
00:21:05.020 their real reporting is still great
00:21:06.540 and the armature
00:21:07.320 and the depth of knowledge
00:21:08.560 of the people who work there
00:21:09.480 and the armature of the machine
00:21:10.500 is still great,
00:21:11.620 but there's just this deep inanity
00:21:14.120 that runs through
00:21:15.720 all of those social pieces.
00:21:17.940 And all of that,
00:21:19.120 I just think is bogus and stupid.
00:21:21.940 But the main thing
00:21:23.200 that I have a problem with
00:21:24.180 is the erasing of boys
00:21:25.620 and the erasing of men
00:21:27.460 and the cackling,
00:21:29.160 gleeful way that they've done it.
00:21:30.580 I despise those things.
00:21:32.800 And yet I have to say
00:21:34.080 the life I lead,
00:21:35.200 the things I do,
00:21:36.620 the places I go,
00:21:37.740 the rights I hold,
00:21:39.520 I have to absolutely
00:21:41.000 thank feminism for that. 1.00
00:21:42.660 And I remember my mother would,
00:21:43.580 oh, when I was a kid,
00:21:44.320 like, I don't know what she used to do, 0.84
00:21:45.120 she was like,
00:21:45.680 now, Kate,
00:21:46.460 when, you know,
00:21:46.920 when you get married,
00:21:47.700 you have to always have
00:21:48.460 a credit card in your name
00:21:49.680 because I see my friends,
00:21:51.400 like if their husband dies,
00:21:53.040 they can't get credit.
00:21:54.120 And I was like nine.
00:21:54.800 I was like, what is credit?
00:21:55.700 You know,
00:21:55.980 I don't want a Hink's card for.
00:21:57.760 But like all of those big changes
00:22:00.640 that make me equal
00:22:02.440 to a man
00:22:03.920 as far as my rights
00:22:04.820 and abilities,
00:22:05.380 I certainly owe to the movement.
00:22:06.760 So I'm not,
00:22:07.840 you know,
00:22:08.540 I'm not some like 0.88
00:22:09.220 Phyllis Schlafly,
00:22:10.400 who's probably a more
00:22:11.100 interesting character.
00:22:11.860 I should probably write about her.
00:22:12.680 I don't really know anything about her
00:22:13.660 except the top lines.
00:22:14.640 But I'm not someone
00:22:17.080 who's in any way
00:22:18.440 saying we need to go back
00:22:19.620 or that women shouldn't work 1.00
00:22:20.740 or anything like that.
00:22:22.220 I just think
00:22:23.040 that this combination
00:22:23.800 of the grift
00:22:24.880 and the inanity of it
00:22:28.540 that's being passed down
00:22:29.480 to young women,
00:22:30.700 I think it's just,
00:22:31.600 the inanity I think is silly
00:22:32.720 and the grift is ugly.
00:22:34.720 Well, I actually want to talk
00:22:35.440 about Me Too
00:22:36.220 and that movement.
00:22:38.960 Maybe we can jump into that
00:22:40.800 earlier than I expected.
00:22:42.260 But just a few more general points.
00:22:44.780 One is that you,
00:22:46.240 so obviously you have
00:22:47.000 a nuanced position here
00:22:48.080 and as we have discovered,
00:22:49.940 nuance is the enemy
00:22:51.180 of common understanding
00:22:52.700 more and more.
00:22:54.060 It's just,
00:22:54.480 if your position
00:22:56.220 can't be summarized
00:22:57.700 in a sentence,
00:22:59.040 some detractor will find
00:23:01.180 a completely false reading of it
00:23:03.480 by which to summarize it
00:23:04.600 and hold you accountable to that.
00:23:06.580 Or the least charitable interpretation
00:23:08.640 of one of your nuanced points
00:23:11.520 that needs to be,
00:23:12.380 by definition,
00:23:13.180 needs to be understood in context
00:23:14.520 becomes the advertisement
00:23:16.480 for what your position
00:23:17.280 actually is.
00:23:18.720 So just bring me back to,
00:23:20.280 one, just for members
00:23:21.840 of the audience
00:23:22.260 who haven't read your stuff.
00:23:24.680 I hardly think there's any members
00:23:26.200 of the audience
00:23:26.820 who haven't read this
00:23:27.520 obscure women's writing. 0.79
00:23:28.500 Okay.
00:23:28.700 Well, just,
00:23:29.200 or have forgotten
00:23:30.000 that this absolutely friendly,
00:23:32.160 genteel voice
00:23:32.900 that you now hear,
00:23:34.460 when someone gets
00:23:35.340 on the wrong side
00:23:36.280 of your pen,
00:23:37.800 your scorn is truly withering.
00:23:40.540 And it's really,
00:23:41.240 I mean,
00:23:41.360 it's delightful to read,
00:23:42.800 but I can imagine,
00:23:44.440 I mean,
00:23:44.680 you take it right up to the line
00:23:46.300 where it's just like,
00:23:47.280 you know,
00:23:47.920 I think at least once
00:23:49.620 or twice on Twitter,
00:23:50.400 I've said,
00:23:50.680 okay,
00:23:51.200 Caitlin Flanagan is,
00:23:52.260 you know,
00:23:52.640 guilty of murder here.
00:23:54.300 Like,
00:23:54.460 somebody call the FBI,
00:23:55.800 right?
00:23:56.480 So it's,
00:23:56.840 I mean,
00:23:56.940 you do essentially
00:23:57.500 what Hitch did,
00:23:58.940 but you,
00:23:59.700 I think you being a woman
00:24:00.800 makes it,
00:24:01.820 I don't think you're perceived
00:24:02.540 as a bully the way he was,
00:24:04.620 but I gotta say,
00:24:05.820 you like,
00:24:06.720 I mean,
00:24:06.920 seeing you take on
00:24:08.040 Naomi Wolf,
00:24:09.240 I mean,
00:24:09.500 it's right up to the line
00:24:10.700 of like,
00:24:10.980 this is,
00:24:11.320 you're just eviscerating her,
00:24:12.860 right?
00:24:13.460 Not enough.
00:24:14.380 I mean.
00:24:14.660 Yeah,
00:24:14.680 right.
00:24:16.300 So anyway,
00:24:17.400 I mean,
00:24:17.720 the pleasure of Schadenfreude,
00:24:20.480 you know,
00:24:21.040 in your articles
00:24:22.260 is just immense,
00:24:23.500 but do you recalibrate that
00:24:25.200 at all now
00:24:26.000 in the social media age
00:24:27.500 or you just,
00:24:28.200 did you set the dial
00:24:29.360 at 11 back in the day
00:24:31.560 and it's just stayed there?
00:24:32.740 If somebody just comes out
00:24:34.700 in a major place
00:24:36.340 like a network news program
00:24:38.820 or a really visible newspaper
00:24:42.400 and they come up with some
00:24:45.200 like inane idiotic thing 0.91
00:24:48.140 and then they're sort of getting
00:24:51.600 the imprimatur of whatever it might be,
00:24:53.800 the New York Times
00:24:54.540 or wherever it is
00:24:55.420 that say Naomi Wolf is published,
00:24:56.880 you know,
00:24:57.060 very serious presses,
00:24:58.280 that just needs to be dealt with
00:25:00.480 and I am the woman
00:25:01.400 that will take care of that.
00:25:02.820 Yeah.
00:25:03.140 You know,
00:25:03.560 like I always say
00:25:04.140 with Kirsten Gillibrand,
00:25:05.520 like,
00:25:06.260 don't worry if she ever
00:25:07.280 gets her head above water,
00:25:08.280 I'm like,
00:25:09.260 I just have a total assignment
00:25:10.520 that will be taken care of.
00:25:11.940 So anybody who's really fair game
00:25:14.400 and they're publishing
00:25:16.920 or they're speaking
00:25:18.080 or they're being accepted
00:25:19.780 in a very elite space,
00:25:23.380 then I just,
00:25:24.700 that just drives me crazy.
00:25:26.700 And then the whole idea
00:25:27.580 that they kind of skip over
00:25:28.760 all these half-truths,
00:25:30.280 all I want to do
00:25:31.260 is just expose the truth
00:25:33.660 and then because I'm funny,
00:25:35.480 it becomes withering.
00:25:38.080 Yeah.
00:25:38.620 Yeah.
00:25:38.940 And it's very, very funny.
00:25:40.840 All right.
00:25:41.040 So I have an enemies list.
00:25:42.000 I want to turn you loose 0.52
00:25:42.800 on my enemies.
00:25:44.140 We can talk about that offline.
00:25:45.080 All right.
00:25:45.300 Speed round enemies.
00:25:46.660 So let's talk about,
00:25:48.320 we touched the nanny thing.
00:25:49.380 So tell us,
00:25:50.360 what was the controversy
00:25:51.700 around your nanny article?
00:25:53.940 There was a lot of discussion
00:25:55.280 about the title for the essay.
00:25:57.620 No one could come up
00:25:58.560 with a good one.
00:25:59.480 And then Colin Murphy
00:26:00.440 at The Atlantic
00:26:01.180 came up with a perfect title,
00:26:02.820 which is a mouthful,
00:26:03.720 but it's How Serfdom
00:26:05.360 Saved the Women's Movement. 1.00
00:26:07.440 And it was just about the fact
00:26:09.600 that for all these women
00:26:12.060 suddenly to go into these jobs,
00:26:14.620 including, say,
00:26:15.600 middle-class women 1.00
00:26:16.100 who needed two incomes, 0.90
00:26:17.480 but also women who were, 1.00
00:26:19.160 you know,
00:26:19.700 Ivy League educated women 0.64
00:26:20.940 married to Ivy League educated men.
00:26:22.560 So they could,
00:26:23.000 either one of them
00:26:23.740 could have, you know,
00:26:24.580 curtailed their career a bit.
00:26:25.720 But the way they made it happen,
00:26:28.380 not in the absence
00:26:29.280 of a daycare culture,
00:26:30.720 which we didn't have,
00:26:31.980 but that wasn't really the issue.
00:26:33.320 These women didn't want 1.00
00:26:34.000 their kids in daycare.
00:26:35.300 They wanted them to be at home.
00:26:38.200 You know,
00:26:38.520 there's just always felt to be,
00:26:40.540 oh, my child's not in daycare.
00:26:42.800 My child is at home.
00:26:44.380 She's in her own crib at nap time.
00:26:46.220 She's playing in the backyard.
00:26:47.300 And the person
00:26:48.960 who's doing this caretaking,
00:26:51.360 she's my direct employee.
00:26:53.020 You can't really boss
00:26:55.120 around a daycare worker.
00:26:57.140 You know,
00:26:57.460 she's an employee of the daycare
00:26:59.080 and she's responsible to her boss.
00:27:01.500 And so the way
00:27:02.320 that that circle was squared
00:27:03.880 is that we were at the beginning
00:27:05.060 of really the very beginning
00:27:07.340 of mass immigration 0.83
00:27:08.420 so that the cities
00:27:09.380 were really filled
00:27:10.360 with women
00:27:11.840 who were easily exploitable.
00:27:15.240 They were,
00:27:15.580 some of them,
00:27:16.400 not documented in any way.
00:27:18.780 And some of them
00:27:20.760 were desperate.
00:27:23.140 They needed work.
00:27:24.080 They desperately needed work
00:27:25.020 and they had a lot of great,
00:27:26.040 you know,
00:27:26.440 mothering skills.
00:27:27.720 And so all these women 1.00
00:27:29.100 that were going back to work
00:27:30.800 hired all these nannies.
00:27:33.180 And they did a lot
00:27:34.560 of terrible things
00:27:35.360 that they do to this day
00:27:36.900 is that,
00:27:38.580 okay,
00:27:38.960 a family hires a nanny
00:27:40.380 and,
00:27:41.260 oh,
00:27:41.680 you know,
00:27:41.880 the nanny doesn't want 1.00
00:27:42.600 to be treated
00:27:43.180 in a cold way
00:27:44.160 as an employee
00:27:44.860 and the family
00:27:46.660 doesn't want to think
00:27:47.280 of her as an employee.
00:27:48.380 We wouldn't leave
00:27:48.760 our precious baby
00:27:49.440 with some employee.
00:27:51.020 Why,
00:27:51.380 you know,
00:27:51.600 Rosa's a member 0.95
00:27:52.360 of the family.
00:27:53.840 She's a member
00:27:54.600 of the family
00:27:55.100 and we do a lot
00:27:56.420 of things for Rosa.
00:27:57.240 You know,
00:27:57.360 she wasn't able 0.96
00:27:57.900 to get a car
00:27:58.660 and we paid
00:27:59.880 the down payment
00:28:00.580 and we put the money
00:28:01.420 down and got her the car
00:28:02.540 and her brother
00:28:03.400 was having trouble
00:28:04.120 and we did this
00:28:04.700 and that for them
00:28:05.260 and,
00:28:05.620 you know,
00:28:06.100 you'd run into them
00:28:06.780 with the nanny. 0.99
00:28:07.380 Oh,
00:28:07.520 it's Rosa.
00:28:08.000 She's a member
00:28:08.520 of the family.
00:28:09.320 And inevitably,
00:28:10.820 three years later,
00:28:11.500 you run into the mom
00:28:12.240 and the kid.
00:28:12.680 Where's Rosa? 0.99
00:28:13.680 Oh,
00:28:14.020 it didn't work out.
00:28:15.540 There was something
00:28:16.620 that happened.
00:28:18.280 You know,
00:28:18.560 I'll tell you about it
00:28:19.340 and it's,
00:28:19.780 you know,
00:28:19.900 there'll always be
00:28:21.120 something that happened
00:28:22.180 and then Rosa goes on
00:28:23.400 to her next job.
00:28:24.700 But inevitably,
00:28:26.660 I mean,
00:28:26.880 it's really rare
00:28:27.720 to find someone
00:28:28.540 who's paying
00:28:29.380 their social security
00:28:31.480 set-asides
00:28:32.200 for that woman.
00:28:33.420 They don't want to do it.
00:28:34.640 They want to have,
00:28:35.500 and the woman 0.95
00:28:35.900 doesn't really want it either.
00:28:37.260 They want the full amount
00:28:38.240 in that check.
00:28:39.060 They want to say
00:28:39.500 they're giving Rosa
00:28:40.140 full dollars.
00:28:41.320 But when you're
00:28:42.120 a low-income worker
00:28:43.320 and you move
00:28:44.340 from job
00:28:45.020 to job
00:28:45.720 to job,
00:28:46.620 you should be
00:28:47.300 accruing
00:28:47.900 those social security
00:28:49.040 set-asides.
00:28:49.940 And if you remain poor
00:28:51.480 or even,
00:28:52.680 I can't remember
00:28:53.160 the exact number,
00:28:53.920 but it's like 70%
00:28:54.900 of the income
00:28:55.860 of people
00:28:56.960 who are like
00:28:57.640 over 60
00:28:58.660 who are
00:29:00.040 maybe lower
00:29:01.080 middle class,
00:29:02.200 it's their social security
00:29:03.440 check.
00:29:03.780 You're not paying
00:29:04.520 into that
00:29:05.260 and let alone
00:29:07.340 the fact that you're
00:29:07.780 probably not paying
00:29:08.200 time and a half
00:29:08.840 if they're working
00:29:09.280 over this certain
00:29:09.940 number of hours.
00:29:10.640 But they are really
00:29:12.300 grinding down
00:29:13.720 another woman. 0.96
00:29:14.980 They're getting ahead
00:29:16.280 in their lives
00:29:17.440 by grinding
00:29:18.520 someone down.
00:29:20.100 And so I wrote
00:29:21.320 extensively
00:29:22.160 about all that
00:29:23.240 and there was
00:29:25.500 a huge blowback
00:29:27.340 and then all these
00:29:28.780 women wanted 0.99
00:29:29.220 to debate me
00:29:30.080 in places like
00:29:30.740 the 92nd Street Y.
00:29:32.220 I was like,
00:29:32.620 are you kidding?
00:29:33.380 But then they were
00:29:34.700 such serious women 0.99
00:29:35.820 and I was getting
00:29:36.940 a lot of heat
00:29:37.360 from my publisher
00:29:37.980 to do it.
00:29:39.340 Or,
00:29:39.780 well,
00:29:39.940 that was when
00:29:40.200 the book came out
00:29:40.840 that was from
00:29:41.200 that article.
00:29:42.560 But they were
00:29:44.140 such big people
00:29:44.860 that it seemed
00:29:45.280 really weird
00:29:45.920 or fearful
00:29:46.520 that I wasn't
00:29:48.040 debating them.
00:29:48.580 And I was fearful
00:29:49.460 because I knew
00:29:49.980 if I went to
00:29:50.340 the 92nd Street Y
00:29:51.600 there wouldn't be
00:29:52.540 anyone.
00:29:52.980 You got a thousand
00:29:53.620 women with nannies. 1.00
00:29:54.720 Right,
00:29:55.160 exactly.
00:29:56.080 And I guess
00:29:57.440 intersectionality,
00:29:58.620 which now is kind
00:29:59.320 of in this weird way
00:29:59.920 which I hate
00:30:00.600 but is sort of like
00:30:01.480 really making the point
00:30:02.480 that I was making
00:30:02.940 so long ago
00:30:03.660 maybe would give me
00:30:04.780 some cover.
00:30:05.780 But so I came up
00:30:06.800 with this audacious
00:30:07.760 thing that I didn't
00:30:08.780 think would work
00:30:09.720 and I won't say
00:30:10.500 the names of the
00:30:11.020 women it worked with 0.99
00:30:11.760 but it worked 100%.
00:30:12.700 I said,
00:30:13.140 I'll debate anyone
00:30:14.020 anywhere but we're
00:30:15.180 just going to get
00:30:15.760 a neutral person
00:30:16.600 to look at our taxes
00:30:17.720 for the last five years
00:30:19.160 because they were all
00:30:20.320 moms and I was a mom
00:30:21.480 and I knew I was clean.
00:30:23.580 Right.
00:30:23.940 And they fell away
00:30:26.800 immediately.
00:30:27.160 They disappeared.
00:30:28.580 They disappeared.
00:30:30.000 And you know,
00:30:30.580 some people could say,
00:30:31.400 well, you're blaming
00:30:32.080 women for this 1.00
00:30:33.300 when it's a parenting issue.
00:30:35.440 I think nowadays
00:30:36.240 it's really changed.
00:30:37.120 Fathers are more involved
00:30:37.900 with those decisions.
00:30:38.980 But at that time
00:30:40.300 it was the women 1.00
00:30:41.040 who made those decisions,
00:30:42.560 the women who dealt 0.99
00:30:43.520 with the nanny,
00:30:44.560 the women who decided 0.99
00:30:45.800 whether or not
00:30:46.900 they were going to do
00:30:47.560 the social security
00:30:48.520 set-asides and all that.
00:30:49.660 And I just thought
00:30:50.460 that that was how
00:30:51.840 the women's movement
00:30:53.320 depended on this
00:30:54.300 kind of serfdom.
00:30:55.840 And I think to this
00:30:56.640 extent in L.A.,
00:30:57.820 the number of people
00:30:59.920 that don't do that
00:31:01.660 and are really
00:31:02.340 and think of themselves
00:31:03.020 as very progressive
00:31:03.860 Westside Los Angeles people
00:31:05.600 and yet have a very
00:31:07.340 low-income worker
00:31:08.440 in their home
00:31:09.340 and think that she's
00:31:10.740 going to be a lifetime
00:31:11.500 retainer like in some,
00:31:12.800 you know,
00:31:13.200 Cary Grant movie
00:31:14.160 where these like,
00:31:14.940 you know,
00:31:15.180 old retainers are
00:31:16.100 wandering in and out.
00:31:17.120 She's not.
00:31:18.560 You know,
00:31:18.820 Nora Ephron had this
00:31:19.840 funny thing in one
00:31:20.400 of her final books
00:31:21.000 of essays of like
00:31:21.740 things to remember
00:31:22.580 and she said
00:31:23.000 one of the most
00:31:23.800 important things
00:31:24.440 to remember
00:31:24.880 is that even
00:31:26.260 the best babysitter
00:31:27.380 in the world
00:31:28.460 won't work after a while.
00:31:29.880 Your family's going
00:31:30.600 to change.
00:31:31.280 You know,
00:31:31.380 it's not going
00:31:31.920 to be right.
00:31:33.240 And what have you
00:31:34.480 done for her
00:31:35.420 is my question
00:31:36.320 or to her
00:31:37.180 and this produced
00:31:39.020 a lot of rage
00:31:40.320 from a lot of women.
00:31:41.580 But it also got me
00:31:42.920 which and then
00:31:43.360 what just completely
00:31:44.240 maxed them out
00:31:44.980 and this is why
00:31:45.340 I keep telling people
00:31:46.160 don't worry.
00:31:47.240 I got invited
00:31:48.100 to join the New Yorker
00:31:49.220 as a staff writer.
00:31:50.720 So it's like
00:31:52.040 if you're a big
00:31:53.020 noisy writer
00:31:54.300 and you're taking up
00:31:55.540 this space
00:31:56.260 and the culture
00:31:56.860 and you're really
00:31:57.620 saying some new things
00:31:59.020 as much as you're
00:32:00.420 going to have
00:32:00.980 a lot of,
00:32:02.200 you know,
00:32:02.620 painful incidents,
00:32:03.820 you know,
00:32:04.180 the world will take
00:32:04.900 note of you.
00:32:06.560 Yeah.
00:32:06.780 Yeah.
00:32:06.960 Well,
00:32:07.100 I guess there,
00:32:07.880 obviously there are people
00:32:08.720 who are getting
00:32:09.500 canceled.
00:32:10.780 I mean,
00:32:10.940 you have to be
00:32:11.520 on the right side
00:32:12.740 of certain questions
00:32:14.400 because,
00:32:14.740 I mean,
00:32:14.840 you are,
00:32:15.560 you are not
00:32:16.620 right wing,
00:32:17.680 right?
00:32:18.060 So you're,
00:32:18.680 I mean,
00:32:18.900 you violate
00:32:21.120 certain taboos
00:32:23.420 of the left
00:32:24.300 but when push
00:32:26.500 comes to shove
00:32:27.040 you're arguing
00:32:27.520 for progressive
00:32:28.240 causes.
00:32:29.300 I don't know
00:32:30.160 if I can say that
00:32:31.300 because...
00:32:32.220 How would you
00:32:33.000 describe yourself
00:32:33.660 politically?
00:32:34.940 Well,
00:32:35.340 do you remember
00:32:35.700 the Covington incident
00:32:36.980 when those kids...
00:32:38.660 Yeah.
00:32:39.240 That was a great
00:32:39.960 flashpoint.
00:32:40.760 I just was thinking,
00:32:42.180 so I was like,
00:32:42.820 oh,
00:32:43.040 I just heard the top line,
00:32:44.380 these kids abusing
00:32:45.260 this Native American man
00:32:46.420 or whatever.
00:32:47.220 I thought,
00:32:47.540 oh,
00:32:47.640 that's terrible
00:32:48.140 and I just watched
00:32:48.780 the little tiny piece
00:32:50.200 of video
00:32:50.660 that everybody was saying
00:32:52.520 this is the evidence.
00:32:53.780 Yeah.
00:32:54.080 Everyone became
00:32:54.820 a clairvoyant
00:32:55.960 reading into a smile
00:32:57.020 of the entire worldview.
00:32:58.500 It was a very odd
00:32:58.780 piece of video.
00:32:59.800 It was one child
00:33:00.800 smiling in a very
00:33:02.540 enigmatic way
00:33:03.640 standing close
00:33:05.080 to a Native American man
00:33:06.380 who's playing a drum
00:33:07.160 and I thought,
00:33:08.540 I'm always thinking
00:33:09.500 in cases like this,
00:33:10.320 oh,
00:33:10.420 there must be
00:33:10.880 another clip
00:33:11.500 they're using
00:33:12.040 because clearly
00:33:13.060 this doesn't show me
00:33:15.020 anything that that guy
00:33:15.900 did wrong,
00:33:16.480 that this kid did wrong.
00:33:17.780 Yeah.
00:33:18.280 And then I just went
00:33:19.740 farther and farther
00:33:20.560 and farther
00:33:21.060 and it was completely bogus.
00:33:23.760 That guy is a real
00:33:25.540 sort of performance artist
00:33:26.900 who like mixes it up
00:33:28.020 in this way
00:33:28.800 in different places
00:33:30.240 and gets attention
00:33:31.280 and was promoting himself
00:33:32.660 as a Vietnam vet
00:33:33.880 and then a Vietnam era vet
00:33:35.500 and the whole thing
00:33:36.440 was just a fraudulent event.
00:33:38.080 And then NBC,
00:33:39.960 here I go again.
00:33:41.100 These are the things
00:33:41.860 I say that get me
00:33:42.400 in immediate trouble
00:33:43.100 but Samantha Guthrie
00:33:45.240 on NBC was given,
00:33:46.960 I mean,
00:33:47.300 they should have talked
00:33:48.380 to me,
00:33:48.720 these Covington families.
00:33:50.100 She was given
00:33:50.980 the opportunity
00:33:51.940 to interview
00:33:52.680 that exact kid
00:33:54.060 in his home
00:33:55.800 back in wherever
00:33:56.440 they were from,
00:33:56.920 Kentucky, I guess.
00:33:58.280 And it was a very
00:33:59.580 disparaging interview
00:34:01.040 on her part.
00:34:02.580 It was all the worse
00:34:03.880 for it being sort of gentle
00:34:04.980 in the way that she did it
00:34:06.400 because it was a morning show
00:34:07.360 but she was not
00:34:08.940 an honest broker
00:34:09.740 to that kid.
00:34:11.600 And the other thing is
00:34:12.980 now I know
00:34:14.120 all these people,
00:34:16.060 you know,
00:34:17.140 I don't know Samantha
00:34:17.820 but like I'm
00:34:19.000 in that world enough
00:34:20.500 that I go to
00:34:21.280 events, parties,
00:34:22.940 dinners with these people
00:34:23.800 of M-Back East 0.68
00:34:24.400 and the right
00:34:26.180 is absolutely correct.
00:34:27.960 They are all
00:34:28.580 extremely progressive.
00:34:29.880 That is to a person.
00:34:31.400 They are pro-choice
00:34:32.840 to a person.
00:34:33.640 They are anti-Trump
00:34:34.520 to a person.
00:34:35.560 And so the right
00:34:36.320 is absolutely correct
00:34:37.320 that the mainstream media,
00:34:39.180 the important media outlets
00:34:40.400 are peopled
00:34:41.940 by extremely partisan
00:34:44.320 reporters,
00:34:45.900 editors,
00:34:46.600 and opinion writers
00:34:47.480 who try
00:34:48.960 at the best they can.
00:34:50.420 They don't go in there
00:34:51.080 and sort of say
00:34:51.480 let's make a plot
00:34:52.520 to do this or that.
00:34:54.940 So...
00:34:55.340 Yeah, I guess my point there
00:34:57.160 was just that
00:34:57.700 you would be,
00:34:59.260 you would probably
00:35:00.040 be cancelable
00:35:00.860 if you were actually
00:35:02.980 right wing
00:35:03.900 in making some
00:35:04.600 of these same points.
00:35:05.780 Like if you didn't,
00:35:06.420 if you couldn't check
00:35:07.360 some of the progressive boxes
00:35:08.460 that at the end of the day
00:35:09.580 make you look
00:35:10.820 more saint than sinner
00:35:12.020 from the point of view
00:35:12.780 of the left.
00:35:13.280 I mean,
00:35:13.460 it's just,
00:35:14.280 just take the New Yorker's 0.86
00:35:16.820 response
00:35:18.140 to the platforming
00:35:20.200 or almost platforming
00:35:21.720 of Steve Bannon
00:35:22.360 at the New Yorker conference,
00:35:24.220 right?
00:35:24.460 So David Remnick
00:35:25.560 had a total mutiny
00:35:26.500 on his hands.
00:35:27.320 So if you,
00:35:28.100 if you were
00:35:29.020 on some level
00:35:30.200 pro-Bannon,
00:35:31.320 pro-Trump,
00:35:32.300 you know,
00:35:32.760 making those points,
00:35:33.860 then, you know,
00:35:34.300 that's,
00:35:35.140 then you could,
00:35:35.600 you could have
00:35:35.920 some of the same essays
00:35:36.780 that would spark
00:35:37.780 the same controversy,
00:35:38.660 but when someone
00:35:39.120 drilled down,
00:35:40.440 they would discover
00:35:41.160 that you
00:35:41.860 were politically toxic
00:35:44.180 and I think
00:35:45.200 that would have
00:35:45.600 a big effect.
00:35:47.320 You're right.
00:35:48.740 Although Bannon
00:35:50.080 is certainly loathsome.
00:35:51.540 I mean,
00:35:52.580 somebody just sent me
00:35:53.320 an email the other day
00:35:54.660 from the magazine
00:35:55.600 based on a couple
00:35:56.320 of tweets I'd say
00:35:56.900 and he's like,
00:35:57.440 I just don't understand
00:35:58.500 your position
00:35:59.060 on immigration
00:35:59.820 because I wasn't
00:36:00.580 in one lane
00:36:01.360 or the other.
00:36:02.120 It's a very complex situation.
00:36:04.220 Well,
00:36:04.600 I want to talk
00:36:05.000 about immigration too.
00:36:05.860 So let me just,
00:36:06.900 so we're close to,
00:36:08.640 we're circling in
00:36:09.200 on Me Too.
00:36:10.580 Sorry.
00:36:11.060 Let's start there.
00:36:12.620 So we've had
00:36:14.000 huge cases
00:36:16.720 in recent memory
00:36:18.360 that have focused
00:36:19.480 a concern
00:36:20.900 around sexual harassment
00:36:23.140 and violence
00:36:24.580 against women. 0.76
00:36:25.220 This continuum
00:36:25.860 from, you know,
00:36:26.540 like, you know,
00:36:26.900 bad jokes to rape
00:36:28.480 and, you know,
00:36:29.820 this has all been
00:36:30.340 summarized by
00:36:31.280 the hashtag Me Too
00:36:33.080 movement.
00:36:34.020 There was the Kavanaugh
00:36:34.760 hearings.
00:36:36.000 More recently in the news,
00:36:37.200 we have the Jeffrey Epstein
00:36:38.020 case.
00:36:39.400 And I think,
00:36:39.940 so many of us
00:36:40.480 who have a nuanced
00:36:41.260 position on this
00:36:42.600 are certainly worried
00:36:43.840 that the continuum
00:36:45.620 doesn't get acknowledged
00:36:47.800 as a continuum,
00:36:48.440 that you have
00:36:49.420 in certain quarters
00:36:50.500 what appears to be
00:36:51.780 a similar level
00:36:52.380 of outrage
00:36:53.220 around literally
00:36:54.920 bad jokes.
00:36:55.720 wanting people
00:36:57.220 to lose their careers
00:36:58.200 over bad jokes.
00:36:59.200 I mean,
00:36:59.380 there are literally
00:36:59.820 cases like this.
00:37:00.680 There's the academic
00:37:01.820 in the elevator
00:37:02.620 who, you know,
00:37:03.880 crowded elevator
00:37:04.500 at a conference
00:37:05.000 and he says,
00:37:05.700 women's lingerie,
00:37:07.180 please.
00:37:08.220 And, you know,
00:37:09.140 that's like a bad,
00:37:10.360 you know,
00:37:10.620 Dean Martin-style joke.
00:37:12.360 Right.
00:37:13.000 And I didn't hear
00:37:14.760 the other shoe drop there,
00:37:16.040 but I think he was
00:37:16.720 actually fighting
00:37:17.820 for his career.
00:37:18.860 Last I heard,
00:37:19.660 that's what he was doing,
00:37:20.760 was fighting for his career.
00:37:21.900 Yeah.
00:37:22.060 And people think
00:37:23.120 it's totally warranted,
00:37:24.140 right?
00:37:24.380 You know,
00:37:24.540 you have to hurl
00:37:26.220 these people
00:37:26.580 from the rooftops.
00:37:27.780 Well,
00:37:27.900 that's the problem
00:37:28.720 is that where
00:37:29.920 they're so often located
00:37:31.360 is in academic life,
00:37:33.220 which is where we used
00:37:33.860 to have our smartest people.
00:37:36.060 And now I think
00:37:37.080 our-
00:37:37.280 But also journalists.
00:37:38.540 That's what I said.
00:37:39.220 Yes, you're absolutely right.
00:37:39.900 I was immediately thinking that.
00:37:41.080 I had Rebecca Trayster
00:37:42.000 on the podcast
00:37:42.520 and we didn't go
00:37:43.580 too far in that direction,
00:37:44.940 but she has
00:37:46.160 very strong intuitions
00:37:48.640 here ethically
00:37:49.520 that, you know,
00:37:50.620 you have to break
00:37:51.440 some eggs
00:37:51.840 to make this equity omelet
00:37:53.820 and it just doesn't matter
00:37:55.820 on some level
00:37:57.220 that people,
00:37:57.900 people who lose
00:37:58.800 their careers,
00:38:00.020 they'll be fine.
00:38:00.660 They'll get another job.
00:38:01.680 You know,
00:38:01.820 and that's actually
00:38:03.280 not an exaggeration
00:38:04.740 of the position
00:38:06.200 she articulated.
00:38:07.560 You know,
00:38:07.660 like when I was,
00:38:08.360 you know,
00:38:08.500 the one example
00:38:09.320 I used was Matt Damon.
00:38:10.520 You know,
00:38:10.640 Matt Damon said something
00:38:11.780 utterly benign
00:38:14.380 and rational
00:38:15.520 around these,
00:38:17.100 this 20 megaton
00:38:17.960 controversy.
00:38:19.600 I mean,
00:38:19.800 he simply said,
00:38:20.520 listen,
00:38:20.920 we just have to acknowledge
00:38:21.800 that groping someone
00:38:23.220 is not the same thing
00:38:24.220 as raping someone
00:38:25.020 and telling a bad joke
00:38:26.060 is not the same thing
00:38:26.760 as groping someone
00:38:27.480 and let's just save our,
00:38:29.800 you know,
00:38:29.960 save the cops
00:38:30.760 for, you know,
00:38:31.500 one end of the spectrum
00:38:32.300 and, you know,
00:38:33.760 our, you know,
00:38:34.540 raised eyebrow
00:38:35.140 for the other end
00:38:35.940 and had he not
00:38:38.080 immediately backed,
00:38:38.900 certainly he perceived
00:38:39.840 that had he not
00:38:40.480 just apologized,
00:38:41.580 backed down,
00:38:42.140 and shut up 0.99
00:38:42.700 for all time
00:38:43.300 on this topic,
00:38:44.520 he was in some real jeopardy
00:38:45.980 as one of the most
00:38:46.880 powerful people in Hollywood
00:38:47.900 and people like Rebecca
00:38:49.440 think it's good
00:38:51.040 that he's terrified,
00:38:52.440 right?
00:38:52.620 Like, let's,
00:38:53.000 we've got to silence
00:38:54.140 any, any demurral
00:38:55.600 on this point.
00:38:56.300 So, how do you,
00:38:57.960 I want to talk about
00:38:58.940 Kavanaugh,
00:38:59.900 I want to talk about
00:39:00.500 actual violence
00:39:01.440 against women,
00:39:01.940 but I guess
00:39:03.800 the larger question here,
00:39:05.920 the question we really
00:39:06.520 have to sort out
00:39:07.300 and I have very few
00:39:08.240 intuitions about,
00:39:09.840 how do we navigate
00:39:11.620 the changing social norms
00:39:13.840 in this space?
00:39:14.580 Because there's no question
00:39:15.180 that norms are changing
00:39:17.060 and many probably
00:39:19.340 should change,
00:39:20.260 but there's just a,
00:39:21.840 it's a very awkward
00:39:22.900 landscape.
00:39:23.820 I can't imagine
00:39:24.620 what it would be like
00:39:25.360 to be a young single
00:39:26.940 person in an office
00:39:27.980 where you're just
00:39:28.800 surrounded by other people
00:39:30.520 and those are the people
00:39:31.400 you're going to meet
00:39:32.140 on a day-to-day basis
00:39:33.000 and you're trying
00:39:33.780 to navigate workplace
00:39:35.980 dating or not.
00:39:37.880 And then we have
00:39:38.340 these examples of,
00:39:39.300 you know,
00:39:39.720 people in the news
00:39:40.620 who,
00:39:41.180 whose work
00:39:42.600 we still
00:39:44.000 seemingly should admire,
00:39:46.000 I mean,
00:39:46.120 some of the most
00:39:46.460 creative people around,
00:39:49.000 you know,
00:39:49.380 their biographies
00:39:50.180 continually disgorge
00:39:51.240 these,
00:39:51.660 these what now
00:39:52.560 are unseemly stories
00:39:53.680 or,
00:39:54.000 and,
00:39:54.100 and were stories
00:39:55.680 at the time
00:39:56.620 just a few short years ago
00:39:58.880 the norms were different,
00:40:00.120 right?
00:40:00.360 A joke told
00:40:01.480 10 years ago
00:40:02.680 was being told
00:40:03.860 in a very different context.
00:40:05.140 So I'm just wondering
00:40:05.920 how you think about
00:40:06.720 the changing norm issue
00:40:08.100 before we get into
00:40:08.700 the actual spectrum
00:40:09.800 of indiscretion.
00:40:10.600 Well, part of what
00:40:11.020 you're talking about
00:40:11.660 with Matt Damon,
00:40:12.920 that's the grift.
00:40:14.440 So long as we keep
00:40:15.700 them all terrified,
00:40:17.120 so long as we show
00:40:18.420 that we can cancel them,
00:40:20.380 we can push ourselves
00:40:21.580 ahead some way.
00:40:22.540 We can push our,
00:40:23.420 our ideas,
00:40:24.920 our half-baked ideas.
00:40:25.880 Well, your idea
00:40:26.360 should be able to stand
00:40:27.180 on its own
00:40:27.840 without having to,
00:40:28.960 you know,
00:40:29.920 police these people.
00:40:32.180 Sometimes I think,
00:40:33.320 because I've certainly
00:40:34.380 had experiences,
00:40:35.980 me too kind of experiences,
00:40:37.140 not at work,
00:40:38.460 because I don't go
00:40:39.440 to the office,
00:40:40.000 so I'd have to be like
00:40:41.320 me too'd by the dog.
00:40:43.520 And it is the history
00:40:44.880 of women.
00:40:45.680 It's the history of women, 1.00
00:40:46.920 it's the history of rape,
00:40:48.300 the history of assault,
00:40:49.520 the history of,
00:40:50.820 you know,
00:40:51.060 someone was just saying
00:40:51.660 to me this weekend
00:40:52.400 that there was a poll
00:40:53.280 where they asked
00:40:54.360 all these women, 1.00
00:40:55.540 what do you do
00:40:56.380 to prevent sexual assault
00:40:57.800 in your life?
00:40:58.400 And they had these long lists.
00:40:59.820 They came up with like 32,
00:41:00.940 I keep my keys in my hand,
00:41:02.040 I walk here,
00:41:02.540 I walk there,
00:41:03.240 and then they asked men,
00:41:04.800 the same sort of social class
00:41:05.900 or office,
00:41:06.580 what do you do?
00:41:07.080 They're like,
00:41:07.280 what are you talking about?
00:41:08.140 I don't do anything.
00:41:09.720 You know,
00:41:10.180 it's the history of women 1.00
00:41:14.020 and it's a terrible thing.
00:41:16.020 And there was,
00:41:18.300 you know,
00:41:18.620 when I was in college,
00:41:20.140 there was this girl
00:41:21.960 who really was raped
00:41:24.500 in a fraternity,
00:41:25.860 so this is like in the 80s,
00:41:27.480 and she went to the dean
00:41:29.940 and, I mean,
00:41:31.900 she had to go,
00:41:32.600 I mean,
00:41:32.740 she woke up in a bloody sheet
00:41:33.980 in a fraternity house,
00:41:34.980 she'd been a virgin,
00:41:35.740 all the rest of it.
00:41:36.480 She got herself
00:41:37.280 to student health.
00:41:38.960 She had,
00:41:39.760 you know,
00:41:40.040 a report on that level.
00:41:41.340 I don't know if it was a rape kid
00:41:42.260 as we would say today,
00:41:43.140 but, I mean,
00:41:43.460 she had been kind of bruised up.
00:41:45.420 And she went to the dean
00:41:47.060 and the deans told her,
00:41:48.980 a man,
00:41:49.760 you know,
00:41:50.640 he told the young man
00:41:51.880 to be more of a gentleman
00:41:53.120 and he told her to,
00:41:56.400 you know,
00:41:56.700 what were you doing
00:41:57.220 in a fraternity
00:41:57.880 that late at night?
00:41:58.640 And she was really,
00:41:59.920 not that it matters,
00:42:01.220 but she really was just doing
00:42:02.260 something very understandable.
00:42:03.740 She got her,
00:42:04.120 this was before binge drinking
00:42:05.840 was the norm
00:42:06.380 for young women on campus.
00:42:07.320 Someone had really handed
00:42:08.060 her a spiked drink.
00:42:09.580 So anyways,
00:42:10.400 she decides to stay at college.
00:42:12.600 Oh,
00:42:12.820 the guy even suggested
00:42:13.520 you might want to transfer.
00:42:14.540 This might be too humiliating.
00:42:15.960 So there's an end to this story,
00:42:17.440 which is that like
00:42:18.100 years go by.
00:42:19.460 Hopefully it ends
00:42:19.720 with a hanging.
00:42:20.520 It just about does
00:42:21.620 because she's 20 years later
00:42:24.640 or 19 years later,
00:42:25.460 she's about to go
00:42:26.020 to Virginia Beach
00:42:26.640 on vacation with her family.
00:42:28.280 She gets the mail
00:42:29.100 and there's a letter.
00:42:30.900 And the guy who did it
00:42:32.460 has joined AA.
00:42:34.940 And he's written,
00:42:36.340 you know,
00:42:36.500 he needs to make amends.
00:42:38.160 So he makes this complete amends
00:42:39.940 to her.
00:42:40.800 And she calls the Charlottesville DA.
00:42:42.880 And he's like,
00:42:44.360 okay,
00:42:44.680 we got six months left
00:42:45.840 on the statute of limitations.
00:42:47.380 Wow.
00:42:47.660 And that guy went to jail.
00:42:50.640 And,
00:42:50.660 and so,
00:42:52.180 which,
00:42:53.140 you know,
00:42:53.420 people have strong feelings
00:42:54.340 about that.
00:42:55.100 But the fact of it was
00:42:56.360 I went to college,
00:42:57.320 it really was a situation
00:42:58.940 where
00:42:59.400 there was a tremendous
00:43:01.000 amount of rape
00:43:01.760 at the University of Virginia.
00:43:03.260 It had only,
00:43:04.120 I mean,
00:43:04.280 I went there
00:43:04.920 in the very early 80s.
00:43:05.760 It had only been co-ed
00:43:06.600 for about 10 years.
00:43:07.820 And it was just really,
00:43:10.160 I mean,
00:43:10.880 I couldn't even imagine
00:43:12.520 even thinking of going
00:43:13.480 to a dean about anything
00:43:14.420 in my personal life.
00:43:16.020 So,
00:43:16.680 on the one hand,
00:43:17.500 there's been this great progress.
00:43:19.540 On the other hand,
00:43:21.000 young women want to participate
00:43:22.300 in behaviors
00:43:22.880 that aren't good for them,
00:43:24.180 that cause them
00:43:24.840 tremendous grief.
00:43:26.460 And then looking
00:43:27.480 for some reason for it,
00:43:30.100 oh,
00:43:30.360 it's a rape culture. 1.00
00:43:32.280 You know,
00:43:33.220 it's,
00:43:33.940 and,
00:43:34.100 and then they also attack the West.
00:43:35.980 The West does not have
00:43:36.840 a rape culture. 1.00
00:43:38.200 Yeah.
00:43:38.480 You know,
00:43:38.960 we have rape, 0.99
00:43:39.900 but we don't have
00:43:40.420 a rape culture. 1.00
00:43:41.600 Okay,
00:43:41.880 so there was so much
00:43:42.700 condensed in that,
00:43:44.100 in even just
00:43:45.060 those last few sentences.
00:43:46.340 I just want to
00:43:47.320 plant a few flags
00:43:48.280 on some landmarks there.
00:43:50.020 So,
00:43:50.200 and this is why
00:43:51.000 it's very difficult
00:43:52.320 to have this conversation
00:43:53.120 because the,
00:43:53.920 the ethical,
00:43:55.000 fact-based conversation
00:43:56.180 is clearly nuanced.
00:43:58.060 And,
00:43:58.820 unless you take
00:43:59.740 the party line here
00:44:01.460 and ignore the nuance,
00:44:02.900 you're,
00:44:03.080 you're susceptible
00:44:04.020 to a lot of blowback.
00:44:05.740 But,
00:44:06.240 so what you just sketched there
00:44:07.440 is that,
00:44:07.780 obviously,
00:44:09.900 violence against women
00:44:10.960 is a perennial problem.
00:44:12.980 I mean,
00:44:13.260 just,
00:44:13.840 men are,
00:44:16.080 on average,
00:44:16.860 stronger than women. 0.97
00:44:18.280 A certain percentage of men
00:44:19.340 are going to force sex 0.99
00:44:20.740 on women. 0.95
00:44:21.260 This is just a crime problem
00:44:22.400 that,
00:44:22.700 that has been with us
00:44:23.660 before we had a concept
00:44:24.820 of crime.
00:44:25.600 And then there are
00:44:26.560 moments in culture
00:44:28.120 where
00:44:28.840 even
00:44:30.240 totally,
00:44:31.680 apparently,
00:44:32.240 civilized people
00:44:33.140 blithely ignore this problem.
00:44:35.060 And,
00:44:35.260 as you describe
00:44:36.300 your,
00:44:36.540 your college experience,
00:44:38.100 that was the case.
00:44:38.960 I mean,
00:44:39.260 and,
00:44:39.700 so we,
00:44:40.080 we have woken up
00:44:40.880 to the,
00:44:41.320 to the problem
00:44:41.980 and,
00:44:43.180 yet it seems like
00:44:44.360 now we have executed
00:44:46.620 a kind of pendulum swing
00:44:47.900 of overcorrection
00:44:49.380 where
00:44:49.900 now there are,
00:44:51.480 there are hoax crimes,
00:44:52.820 right,
00:44:53.060 that we have to respond to
00:44:54.000 that which do
00:44:54.520 immense damage,
00:44:55.540 right,
00:44:55.700 like the,
00:44:56.340 the,
00:44:56.360 I don't know
00:44:57.300 what was actually
00:44:58.340 believed to be true
00:44:59.140 about the,
00:44:59.780 the Rolling Stone
00:45:01.440 rape case.
00:45:02.740 Yeah,
00:45:02.940 it was,
00:45:03.140 it was zero there.
00:45:03.860 fantasy projection
00:45:04.840 by the girl.
00:45:05.780 So,
00:45:06.000 I mean,
00:45:06.120 that is just,
00:45:06.740 I don't even know
00:45:07.220 how to think about this,
00:45:08.300 but clearly
00:45:09.220 false allegations
00:45:11.620 of rape
00:45:12.420 do immense harm
00:45:14.380 not just to the
00:45:15.540 unfairly accused,
00:45:17.060 but to all the women
00:45:18.500 who actually get raped
00:45:19.860 who then inherit
00:45:20.980 this burden
00:45:21.740 of disbelief.
00:45:23.200 And it really only
00:45:23.920 takes a few cases
00:45:24.860 like that
00:45:25.380 to,
00:45:25.720 to spread
00:45:26.240 the skepticism
00:45:27.140 about legitimate
00:45:28.240 accusations.
00:45:29.840 So,
00:45:30.380 there's the false
00:45:30.800 accusation problem
00:45:31.660 and there's just
00:45:33.180 the,
00:45:33.400 the,
00:45:33.860 exaggeration
00:45:35.080 which seems to be
00:45:36.280 fairly well subscribed
00:45:37.980 at the moment
00:45:38.440 of the,
00:45:38.980 just the level
00:45:39.600 of abuse of women
00:45:41.480 and rape 0.99
00:45:42.060 on college campuses
00:45:42.980 in 2019.
00:45:44.220 I mean,
00:45:44.360 for,
00:45:44.520 for several years now
00:45:45.520 people have been
00:45:46.880 claiming that
00:45:48.260 the chance
00:45:49.320 that you're going
00:45:49.640 to get raped 0.92
00:45:50.040 when you go to college
00:45:50.740 if you're a girl
00:45:51.300 is just,
00:45:51.820 is,
00:45:52.420 I mean,
00:45:52.920 if true,
00:45:53.900 no one would send
00:45:54.700 their daughters to college.
00:45:55.640 I mean,
00:45:55.840 you know,
00:45:56.180 I've heard people say
00:45:57.200 it's like,
00:45:57.420 well,
00:45:57.520 it's like,
00:45:57.840 you know,
00:45:58.080 30% chance
00:45:58.940 you're going to get raped 0.98
00:45:59.540 at college,
00:45:59.920 right?
00:46:00.640 Now,
00:46:00.960 either they're defining
00:46:01.960 rape in so
00:46:03.520 loose a way
00:46:04.260 as to encompass
00:46:05.000 sex you regret
00:46:06.320 or something,
00:46:07.040 you know,
00:46:07.380 fairly anodyne
00:46:08.740 or they're just
00:46:09.940 making things up
00:46:11.040 but there's just
00:46:11.400 no way that 30%
00:46:12.560 of women are getting 0.99
00:46:13.280 raped on college campuses.
00:46:15.240 So this is a hard
00:46:16.540 space to navigate
00:46:17.700 and one thing
00:46:18.720 I would add
00:46:19.380 which goes to this
00:46:21.000 issue of false
00:46:21.740 allegations,
00:46:22.600 so my bias
00:46:23.360 has always been,
00:46:24.360 you know,
00:46:25.460 unless there's something
00:46:26.420 obviously anomalous
00:46:29.660 in an account,
00:46:31.900 you basically,
00:46:32.320 the default setting
00:46:33.200 is you just believe
00:46:34.120 women, 1.00
00:46:34.700 right?
00:46:34.860 You believe the victims
00:46:36.040 and my intuitions here
00:46:38.080 are that it's just,
00:46:39.340 it's such a pathological
00:46:40.740 thing to make up
00:46:42.820 a fake rape account
00:46:44.540 that the likelihood
00:46:47.140 that anyone would do it
00:46:48.260 is,
00:46:48.660 you know,
00:46:49.260 almost infinitesimal
00:46:50.300 and yet,
00:46:51.480 I had one conversation
00:46:52.820 recently that has kind of
00:46:54.540 knocked me back on my heels
00:46:56.020 with respect to that intuition.
00:46:57.560 I was in London
00:46:58.180 a couple weeks ago
00:46:59.440 and I was at dinner
00:47:00.860 with a barrister
00:47:01.740 and in the UK,
00:47:03.600 as you probably know,
00:47:04.440 barristers,
00:47:05.220 the lawyers,
00:47:06.140 often work as prosecutors
00:47:07.520 and defense attorneys,
00:47:08.560 they just,
00:47:09.040 it's on a case-by-case basis
00:47:10.380 and I was asking him
00:47:12.940 the kinds of cases
00:47:13.700 he handles,
00:47:14.240 he handles a lot
00:47:14.980 of sex crime cases
00:47:16.080 and I said,
00:47:18.560 what percentage
00:47:19.760 would you say
00:47:20.500 of cases that
00:47:21.720 come to trial,
00:47:23.000 and there are many
00:47:23.520 that get dismissed
00:47:24.300 before they get there,
00:47:25.680 but what percentage
00:47:26.440 come to trial
00:47:27.940 where you're worried,
00:47:30.320 let's say you're
00:47:30.700 on the prosecution side,
00:47:31.640 you're worried
00:47:32.020 that you're actually
00:47:32.900 prosecuting a guy
00:47:34.120 for a made-up offense,
00:47:36.680 that this is not,
00:47:37.400 it was not actually a rape,
00:47:38.500 it was not,
00:47:39.040 and I was expecting
00:47:41.060 him to say
00:47:43.320 that virtually never happens
00:47:44.880 and what I got from him
00:47:46.580 was just the antithesis.
00:47:48.780 I mean,
00:47:48.920 it was like 30 to 50 percent
00:47:51.180 in his experience
00:47:51.960 where he's,
00:47:52.540 he's as a prosecutor,
00:47:54.300 worried that this guy
00:47:57.080 is just getting railroaded
00:47:58.480 by somebody
00:47:59.040 who just regretted the sex
00:48:01.780 or had some other reason
00:48:02.900 to hate him
00:48:03.540 and knew that this was a way
00:48:05.000 to destroy his life.
00:48:06.820 Now,
00:48:06.960 I don't,
00:48:07.440 again,
00:48:07.760 this is just one conversation
00:48:08.960 of one,
00:48:10.200 you know,
00:48:10.540 based on one barrister's experience,
00:48:12.040 but it completely ransacked
00:48:14.460 my ethical intuitions here
00:48:16.440 and again,
00:48:18.000 maybe we can filter this
00:48:19.840 through the case of Kavanaugh.
00:48:21.180 I mean,
00:48:21.380 when I looked at Kavanaugh,
00:48:22.860 I saw this fraternity jerk
00:48:25.640 who seemed like he was
00:48:27.720 very likely guilty as charged
00:48:29.360 and while this wasn't,
00:48:31.040 you know,
00:48:31.400 criminally actionable,
00:48:32.540 it was enough to warrant him
00:48:34.120 not being on the Supreme Court
00:48:35.440 in my view
00:48:36.020 and certainly his propensity
00:48:37.600 to lie about it
00:48:38.620 and,
00:48:38.820 you know,
00:48:39.380 theatrically protest his innocence
00:48:42.140 in the way that he did.
00:48:42.920 It just seemed like
00:48:43.580 he was radioactive
00:48:45.460 from my point of view,
00:48:46.720 but half of the country
00:48:49.060 had the opposite intuition
00:48:50.520 which is here's a guy
00:48:51.340 who was probably guilty
00:48:53.280 of either nothing
00:48:55.380 or something that
00:48:57.080 virtually every college-age man
00:48:59.900 was guilty of
00:49:00.560 at some point,
00:49:01.360 right?
00:49:01.540 Something that could be misinterpreted
00:49:02.900 and now it's going to,
00:49:03.880 now this is going to come
00:49:04.620 out of his closet
00:49:05.200 and ruin his life.
00:49:06.960 It was a high school event.
00:49:08.100 It was a high school event,
00:49:08.680 yeah,
00:49:09.140 right.
00:49:09.960 I'm just wondering,
00:49:10.420 so let's talk about this issue
00:49:12.080 of,
00:49:14.460 say whatever you want
00:49:15.280 about Kavanaugh,
00:49:15.840 but let's just talk
00:49:16.340 about this issue
00:49:16.900 of false accusation
00:49:19.280 and how to,
00:49:21.360 just how to,
00:49:22.440 I mean,
00:49:22.740 what I got a lot of
00:49:24.160 after the Kavanaugh hearing
00:49:25.980 was irate emails
00:49:29.260 and tweets
00:49:29.860 from my audience
00:49:31.740 around whatever happened
00:49:33.640 to innocent
00:49:34.020 until proven guilty.
00:49:35.000 I mean,
00:49:35.100 the fact that there was
00:49:35.640 no proof here
00:49:36.800 apart from her
00:49:37.640 saying it was so
00:49:38.800 seemed to be
00:49:40.260 dispositive for people,
00:49:42.040 but again,
00:49:42.520 that was not my intuition
00:49:43.520 at the time
00:49:44.080 and it's just not
00:49:45.200 my default intuition.
00:49:46.400 It seemed to me
00:49:46.840 that there was
00:49:47.340 nothing for her to gain
00:49:48.980 and everything for her
00:49:50.080 to lose
00:49:50.680 to give this testimony.
00:49:52.600 So as far as the motive
00:49:53.920 to lie about this,
00:49:54.980 it seems,
00:49:55.640 it seemed very hard to find,
00:49:57.580 but yeah,
00:49:58.820 I just pitched that to you
00:49:59.840 because it's not a,
00:50:00.980 it's a very difficult thing
00:50:02.020 to sort out.
00:50:02.760 Well,
00:50:02.780 I had a very strange journey
00:50:04.160 with the Kavanaugh
00:50:05.280 situation
00:50:06.600 because I had heard
00:50:07.580 that there was
00:50:08.040 this potential claim
00:50:09.080 coming up.
00:50:09.740 I was completely agnostic
00:50:11.140 about Brett Kavanaugh.
00:50:12.260 I didn't really know
00:50:12.740 anything about him.
00:50:14.460 I mean,
00:50:14.620 I knew that Trump
00:50:15.220 had been the one
00:50:16.520 to nominate him,
00:50:17.300 so I sort of
00:50:18.780 had a bit of skepticism
00:50:20.280 because of that,
00:50:21.080 but then the guy
00:50:21.580 he'd done just before,
00:50:22.680 Roberts was at it,
00:50:23.540 he turned out
00:50:24.220 to be not that bad.
00:50:25.740 So anyways,
00:50:26.840 I was agnostic about it,
00:50:27.840 but I was hearing
00:50:28.340 this rumbling
00:50:28.920 that this woman,
00:50:30.240 and then I heard
00:50:30.980 a little bit
00:50:31.600 that it was
00:50:31.880 this high school event,
00:50:33.400 and then the next day
00:50:34.080 I was just sitting
00:50:34.500 at Santa Monica High School.
00:50:36.020 A friend of mine
00:50:36.420 was becoming
00:50:36.860 an honored grad,
00:50:38.080 Hall of Famer there,
00:50:39.040 and I just,
00:50:40.000 you know,
00:50:40.440 kind of bored
00:50:40.900 during the middle
00:50:41.300 of the program.
00:50:41.840 I scrolled through my phone
00:50:42.720 and then Washington Post
00:50:44.120 was just breaking
00:50:44.840 that it was
00:50:45.880 in her psychiatrist notes.
00:50:47.900 So I automatically
00:50:49.380 said,
00:50:49.820 I believe,
00:50:50.260 you know,
00:50:50.440 because I knew
00:50:50.900 so many people
00:50:51.800 and something like this
00:50:52.460 happened to me
00:50:52.940 when I was in high school
00:50:53.720 and I just thought,
00:50:54.420 well,
00:50:54.520 there it is.
00:50:55.520 You know,
00:50:55.640 you're not going
00:50:55.940 to waste your time
00:50:56.860 and money
00:50:57.360 in your psychiatrist
00:50:58.760 appointment
00:50:59.560 to bring out
00:51:01.040 the thing,
00:51:01.500 you know,
00:51:01.600 there's really no in there.
00:51:03.260 And this is years
00:51:03.840 before he would be
00:51:04.720 nominated to the Supreme Court.
00:51:06.340 Right,
00:51:06.360 exactly.
00:51:07.120 You're laying the groundwork
00:51:08.300 for a false allegation.
00:51:09.380 A very long con,
00:51:10.060 you know.
00:51:10.580 So it's like,
00:51:11.060 well,
00:51:11.160 we've got all our
00:51:11.980 representatives out there
00:51:12.940 for like every man
00:51:13.740 who could ever be
00:51:14.420 possibly nominated
00:51:15.480 telling their shrinks
00:51:16.560 things that he's done.
00:51:17.660 So I just quickly
00:51:19.520 that night
00:51:20.380 just wrote out,
00:51:21.820 yeah,
00:51:21.940 I believe her.
00:51:22.800 You know,
00:51:23.180 I had this thing
00:51:24.000 happen to me.
00:51:24.960 I described it.
00:51:26.420 It was very,
00:51:28.200 very,
00:51:28.460 very derailing
00:51:29.100 and upsetting for me
00:51:30.020 as a 17-year-old girl
00:51:31.300 kind of in a,
00:51:32.060 or 16-year-old,
00:51:32.900 16-year,
00:51:33.200 17-year-old girl
00:51:33.920 in my senior year
00:51:35.040 of high school.
00:51:35.580 And didn't tell
00:51:37.580 anybody about it.
00:51:38.760 I mean,
00:51:39.280 and then a few years
00:51:40.200 passed.
00:51:41.340 I remember when I went
00:51:41.860 to college,
00:51:42.280 it was the first time
00:51:42.740 I heard the term
00:51:43.240 date rape.
00:51:43.860 And it was just like,
00:51:44.480 it sounded like an oxymoron,
00:51:45.760 like,
00:51:46.220 date rape?
00:51:47.900 But date is this.
00:51:49.120 And I remember going,
00:51:50.380 oh,
00:51:50.740 it was just like the world
00:51:52.920 opened up to me
00:51:54.040 that the two things
00:51:54.840 could coexist.
00:51:55.720 So anyways,
00:51:56.200 I wrote that
00:51:57.200 and immediately
00:52:00.120 I had to go to DC
00:52:01.200 for just the Atlantic
00:52:02.540 festival
00:52:03.420 and it was right
00:52:05.320 in the middle
00:52:05.760 of all this Kavanaugh stuff
00:52:06.880 and the city
00:52:07.340 was going crazy.
00:52:09.600 And we had
00:52:10.500 all of,
00:52:11.560 we had Lindsey Graham
00:52:12.440 on the main stage,
00:52:13.240 we had everybody
00:52:13.940 on the main stage
00:52:14.900 and it was really,
00:52:15.580 like the Atlantic
00:52:16.000 was like the right time
00:52:17.060 from the sort of
00:52:17.760 callous news breaking way
00:52:19.180 of talking about things.
00:52:20.660 So anyways,
00:52:21.880 I go to bed the first night,
00:52:23.520 I wake up the next morning
00:52:24.500 and I'm looking at my Twitter
00:52:27.840 and somebody's reached out
00:52:28.800 to me and said,
00:52:29.920 Ben Sass of Nebraska
00:52:31.180 is reading your piece
00:52:32.020 on the Senate floor.
00:52:33.180 And I was like,
00:52:33.800 who's Ben Sass of Nebraska?
00:52:35.260 You know,
00:52:35.620 like,
00:52:35.860 what are you talking about?
00:52:37.000 And then I thought,
00:52:37.560 this is just this,
00:52:38.180 they must have,
00:52:39.280 you know,
00:52:39.540 how things come through
00:52:40.280 on Twitter,
00:52:40.800 you're always getting tagged
00:52:41.680 on things you have
00:52:42.160 no reason being in.
00:52:43.900 And someone else said,
00:52:44.900 Ben Sass is reading
00:52:45.660 your piece into the record
00:52:46.560 and here's the video.
00:52:49.140 And then I clicked
00:52:50.120 on this video
00:52:50.680 and it was the most
00:52:51.320 embarrassing thing
00:52:52.900 I'd ever,
00:52:53.720 I mean,
00:52:54.040 what can I say?
00:52:54.920 I'm always embarrassed.
00:52:56.220 I'm just,
00:52:56.520 I live in a state
00:52:57.080 of embarrassment.
00:52:58.100 But it was just
00:52:59.220 really awful
00:52:59.860 because he was just
00:53:00.560 calling me Mrs. Flanagan,
00:53:01.980 which is my mother's name.
00:53:03.340 Like,
00:53:03.480 I'm not Mrs. Flanagan.
00:53:04.920 And then he was like,
00:53:05.560 poor,
00:53:05.940 you know,
00:53:06.060 he's really laying it on.
00:53:08.020 Like,
00:53:08.440 poor Mrs. Flanagan. 0.99
00:53:10.280 You know,
00:53:10.640 she never thought
00:53:11.500 she could get a date again.
00:53:13.400 Imagine how Mrs. Flanagan
00:53:14.680 would have felt
00:53:15.400 night after night.
00:53:16.560 Like,
00:53:16.680 he's just laying it on.
00:53:19.040 And I'm like,
00:53:19.720 this is really mortifying.
00:53:21.400 Like,
00:53:21.640 and that's what I'm
00:53:22.220 telling myself.
00:53:22.940 Well,
00:53:23.060 that's the cost
00:53:23.880 that you pay
00:53:24.820 when you
00:53:26.960 put your personal
00:53:28.100 stuff out there.
00:53:29.120 You know,
00:53:29.680 like,
00:53:30.320 you might have
00:53:30.860 louts retweeting it
00:53:31.980 or you might get it
00:53:32.600 read on the Senate floor
00:53:33.580 and be like,
00:53:34.340 in a pot,
00:53:35.220 embarrassed way.
00:53:35.900 But then
00:53:36.380 then I thought,
00:53:38.540 but I guess
00:53:39.920 he's voted
00:53:40.440 against Kavanaugh
00:53:41.380 because he really
00:53:42.200 sees my peace.
00:53:43.220 And then I found out
00:53:43.780 he didn't vote
00:53:44.720 against Kavanaugh.
00:53:45.380 I was like,
00:53:46.160 I was really
00:53:47.320 jacked up.
00:53:48.460 I mean,
00:53:48.700 I was like,
00:53:50.060 so I'm in D.C.
00:53:52.080 and like,
00:53:52.740 my editor's like,
00:53:53.600 go talk to him
00:53:54.300 right now.
00:53:55.640 And,
00:53:56.200 and then he had
00:53:57.120 just left to Nebraska.
00:53:59.280 And now we've gotten
00:54:00.420 to know each other
00:54:01.380 pretty well.
00:54:02.080 And I like Ben a lot.
00:54:04.360 But so that all happened.
00:54:05.700 And then after that happened,
00:54:07.740 Michael Barbaro
00:54:08.500 from the Times,
00:54:09.600 do you ever listen
00:54:10.060 to The Daily?
00:54:10.440 Yeah, yeah.
00:54:11.320 So he happened
00:54:12.140 to be out in L.A.
00:54:14.620 And he had,
00:54:16.020 they'd never done
00:54:16.620 a story that wasn't
00:54:17.980 from the Times reporting.
00:54:19.300 But he said,
00:54:19.660 this seems to really,
00:54:21.060 and he has this,
00:54:21.620 there's this fabulous guy,
00:54:22.500 Andy Mills,
00:54:22.980 who works there.
00:54:23.500 He's really smart.
00:54:24.220 Do you know him?
00:54:25.200 Just by phone and email.
00:54:26.740 But yeah,
00:54:26.880 he's great.
00:54:27.500 Oh, he's fantastic.
00:54:28.500 I spent a weekend
00:54:29.260 with him at Aspen.
00:54:29.940 He's this great guy
00:54:30.920 and really smart.
00:54:32.340 Anyways,
00:54:32.660 can you do it?
00:54:33.640 I'm like,
00:54:34.460 yes.
00:54:35.580 So this thing happened
00:54:36.960 when I was 16.
00:54:39.120 This conversation
00:54:40.040 with Michael Barbaro
00:54:40.840 happens when I'm like 56
00:54:42.400 or whatever we've decided I am.
00:54:45.020 And I had never,
00:54:47.720 ever in my whole life
00:54:48.660 talked about it
00:54:49.440 in any other way
00:54:50.660 except philosophically.
00:54:52.040 Because when the trauma
00:54:53.180 of it had happened,
00:54:54.480 I wasn't telling anybody.
00:54:56.600 And then I learned
00:54:57.160 about date rape years later
00:54:58.440 and then I'm like,
00:54:59.160 I understand this new term.
00:55:01.600 It's revolutionary.
00:55:02.320 You know,
00:55:02.740 I had something
00:55:03.400 like this happen.
00:55:05.460 And for some reason,
00:55:06.540 I just sat down
00:55:07.340 across from Michael Barbaro
00:55:08.460 and he goes,
00:55:09.640 tell me about senior year
00:55:10.620 of high school.
00:55:12.160 And I,
00:55:12.880 I never have had anything
00:55:14.780 like this happen
00:55:15.340 to me in an interview.
00:55:16.120 I just couldn't
00:55:16.900 keep it together.
00:55:17.660 And I was mortified.
00:55:18.940 There were all these
00:55:19.360 young people there.
00:55:20.740 I thought I can't cancel.
00:55:22.780 I literally thought
00:55:24.020 I'm not going to make
00:55:24.700 it through this.
00:55:25.560 And I just realized
00:55:27.360 that there was
00:55:28.940 a tremendous amount
00:55:30.440 of trauma
00:55:31.240 that I had been
00:55:31.960 holding in my body
00:55:33.420 for 40 years
00:55:36.560 that I talked about it
00:55:38.860 to people,
00:55:39.660 but always in a,
00:55:41.280 yes,
00:55:41.480 I'm on the side
00:55:42.100 of these young women.
00:55:42.720 You know,
00:55:42.900 I had something like this
00:55:43.700 happen to me once
00:55:44.180 at a beach.
00:55:44.740 You know,
00:55:44.960 one of my parents moved.
00:55:45.900 This guy I didn't know well.
00:55:47.900 And,
00:55:48.200 uh,
00:55:49.060 do you feel that it was
00:55:50.260 a genuine unmasking
00:55:52.960 of the trauma
00:55:53.880 that was there?
00:55:54.660 Or do you feel like
00:55:55.520 the framing
00:55:56.600 and focus
00:55:58.320 in this way,
00:55:59.200 I mean,
00:55:59.380 you were given a very,
00:56:00.360 very kind of therapeutic
00:56:01.240 framing and problematized
00:56:03.180 focus.
00:56:04.060 Did that kind of amplify
00:56:06.200 your sense of trauma?
00:56:07.240 Well,
00:56:07.420 it was a weird event
00:56:08.660 in that the nice young people
00:56:09.900 who make the show
00:56:10.540 that are very smart,
00:56:12.040 they would describe me
00:56:13.500 like in the,
00:56:14.220 I think maybe in the promo
00:56:15.140 to the piece
00:56:15.660 and then online,
00:56:16.240 like,
00:56:16.360 we're going to be talking
00:56:17.260 to a sexual assault survivor.
00:56:18.560 So right away,
00:56:19.660 I hold their name
00:56:21.020 for what happened to me.
00:56:22.440 You know,
00:56:23.600 whereas something
00:56:24.500 that happened to me
00:56:25.080 on a date
00:56:25.820 is more correct.
00:56:27.220 You know,
00:56:27.460 so,
00:56:28.240 but,
00:56:28.560 but truly,
00:56:29.860 I didn't think
00:56:30.920 I was unguarded
00:56:31.820 at all when I went
00:56:32.920 into that interview.
00:56:34.200 And suddenly,
00:56:35.020 these people are leaning
00:56:36.100 in and asking me,
00:56:36.980 and I'm just telling you,
00:56:37.840 the thing that came out of me,
00:56:39.560 if it had just been
00:56:40.160 the therapeutic context,
00:56:41.640 I would have been different.
00:56:43.540 I would have said,
00:56:44.580 yes,
00:56:45.020 and I feel,
00:56:45.820 I feel fealty
00:56:46.320 to other young women
00:56:47.420 and this and that.
00:56:49.020 It wasn't like that.
00:56:50.240 It was like,
00:56:50.580 I was 16 years old.
00:56:52.080 I really didn't think
00:56:53.640 I'd get through it.
00:56:54.540 Wow.
00:56:55.000 And I just think,
00:56:55.800 you know,
00:56:56.440 there's all these women. 1.00
00:56:58.940 You know,
00:56:59.160 men always think
00:57:00.080 that women are hysterical, 0.99
00:57:01.720 and we are a little bit hysterical
00:57:03.660 because we hold
00:57:05.160 all this trauma in us.
00:57:06.700 Like,
00:57:06.920 even women like me 1.00
00:57:07.840 who are just
00:57:08.400 very careful
00:57:10.560 about,
00:57:12.600 you know,
00:57:13.400 when I was young
00:57:14.580 and sexual danger
00:57:15.940 and things like that.
00:57:17.520 It still happens.
00:57:19.120 And I think that
00:57:20.220 it,
00:57:21.620 then we get into arguments
00:57:23.160 like the Kavanaugh argument
00:57:24.320 where we aren't logical.
00:57:27.060 And men are like,
00:57:28.060 this isn't logical.
00:57:29.700 Where's your evidence?
00:57:30.640 You're saying something
00:57:31.480 happened 40 years ago.
00:57:32.960 She doesn't remember
00:57:33.660 where it happened.
00:57:34.600 She doesn't remember this.
00:57:35.680 How can you possibly
00:57:36.900 be trying to say
00:57:38.640 this should stop a man
00:57:39.560 from becoming
00:57:40.100 a Supreme Court justice?
00:57:42.500 And women are just 1.00
00:57:43.700 in this volatile
00:57:44.820 fellow feeling
00:57:46.340 of having things
00:57:47.720 like this happen to them.
00:57:49.540 And we all went
00:57:51.260 a little bit
00:57:52.240 nuts.
00:57:53.800 But it was,
00:57:55.020 so it's,
00:57:55.720 it's,
00:57:55.980 I don't think men are,
00:57:57.040 women are as logical 1.00
00:57:57.940 as men on a lot of things.
00:57:59.840 And it's because
00:58:01.260 we should just
00:58:02.780 Okay,
00:58:03.240 stop that.
00:58:03.860 Erase that part.
00:58:04.560 No,
00:58:04.980 we'll keep that
00:58:05.820 but just a sanity check here.
00:58:07.980 Even that statement
00:58:09.300 in the current environment
00:58:10.640 is anathema.
00:58:12.980 Just to acknowledge
00:58:13.800 that there's any
00:58:15.260 biological difference
00:58:17.240 between men and women 0.90
00:58:18.220 which has
00:58:19.460 psychological correlates,
00:58:21.940 that is already
00:58:23.040 among the sisters
00:58:24.880 a taboo,
00:58:26.280 right?
00:58:26.500 I mean that,
00:58:26.800 you know,
00:58:27.000 if you go far
00:58:28.100 And the brothers too,
00:58:29.040 a lot of the brothers.
00:58:29.780 Yeah,
00:58:29.860 if you just go far enough left,
00:58:31.680 certainly on women's issues, 0.98
00:58:33.100 it's just inadmissible.
00:58:33.720 I think women's issues 1.00
00:58:34.660 is not a term anymore.
00:58:36.200 Yeah,
00:58:36.420 well,
00:58:36.640 I'm sure I'm a dinosaur
00:58:37.900 in several different ways
00:58:39.240 in this conversation.
00:58:40.460 But if
00:58:41.160 to be woke
00:58:42.560 is to be convinced
00:58:43.560 on this point
00:58:44.460 that
00:58:45.000 all of the
00:58:46.680 apparent differences
00:58:47.660 between men and women 0.90
00:58:48.580 are culturally enforced
00:58:50.980 to the detriment of women 1.00
00:58:52.440 and what you want
00:58:53.620 is a kind of
00:58:54.800 hard reset
00:58:55.580 of cultural expectations
00:58:57.280 and thereafter
00:58:58.840 you will find
00:59:00.400 that
00:59:00.820 you should have
00:59:01.960 a 50-50 representation
00:59:03.100 of women
00:59:03.640 in every walk of life
00:59:04.900 and,
00:59:05.620 you know,
00:59:06.260 Except the death row.
00:59:07.840 They don't want them 50-50. 0.86
00:59:08.820 Like,
00:59:09.020 it's like,
00:59:09.320 okay,
00:59:09.780 let's really become
00:59:11.320 as violent.
00:59:11.880 Find all the serial killers.
00:59:12.860 Yeah,
00:59:13.120 exactly.
00:59:13.800 It's like,
00:59:14.380 we would have to introduce
00:59:15.420 into our
00:59:16.360 collective makeup
00:59:17.960 enough violence
00:59:19.840 and enough power
00:59:20.960 and enough rage
00:59:21.960 that we could get
00:59:22.980 ourselves in a death row,
00:59:24.460 man,
00:59:24.740 in a serious way.
00:59:26.180 And we can't break in,
00:59:27.420 man.
00:59:27.660 It's a freaking glass ceiling
00:59:28.940 on death row.
00:59:29.860 So,
00:59:30.500 it's just,
00:59:31.360 you know,
00:59:31.720 it doesn't hold up to me
00:59:33.080 that these things
00:59:34.040 aren't
00:59:35.180 legitimate
00:59:35.780 phenomena.
00:59:36.860 I think we have
00:59:37.920 your next title,
00:59:39.000 the death row glass ceiling.
00:59:40.140 Okay,
00:59:40.640 all right.
00:59:42.320 But so then,
00:59:42.820 what do we do
00:59:43.600 about the prospect
00:59:45.220 of
00:59:46.980 either false allegations
00:59:49.120 or
00:59:50.460 honest confessions
00:59:52.840 of trauma
00:59:54.200 over things
00:59:55.440 that shouldn't be
00:59:56.420 traumatizing?
00:59:57.280 I mean,
00:59:57.380 so that we now
00:59:57.880 have a generation
00:59:58.500 of people
00:59:58.840 who have been convinced
00:59:59.700 that certain things
01:00:01.080 are traumatic
01:00:01.680 which other generations
01:00:04.120 could rightfully say,
01:00:05.460 well,
01:00:05.580 those were normal
01:00:07.460 and unavoidable
01:00:08.760 and
01:00:09.360 you should have
01:00:10.720 a thicker skin,
01:00:11.640 right?
01:00:11.860 Like,
01:00:12.140 so,
01:00:12.640 and where is the line there?
01:00:14.080 Because clearly
01:00:14.740 there are norms
01:00:16.100 that we do want to change,
01:00:17.880 right?
01:00:18.200 I mean,
01:00:18.400 this is like,
01:00:18.820 it's not like
01:00:19.300 the Mad Men era
01:00:20.740 is something
01:00:21.900 we should be nostalgic for,
01:00:23.040 but.
01:00:23.460 Although the main premise
01:00:24.560 of the show
01:00:25.020 was nostalgia.
01:00:26.320 Yeah,
01:00:26.700 yeah,
01:00:27.180 no,
01:00:27.360 that was,
01:00:27.860 that was,
01:00:28.740 that's fascinating
01:00:29.360 and I'm a fan of the show
01:00:30.920 but some of the things
01:00:32.300 you saw in the show
01:00:33.440 you couldn't believe
01:00:34.760 were actually true then.
01:00:36.020 I mean,
01:00:36.160 I assume that they were not
01:00:37.840 actually taking much,
01:00:39.180 much poetic license
01:00:40.820 but it was just mind-boggling
01:00:42.740 the stuff that was normal,
01:00:43.920 you know,
01:00:45.180 around gender and race
01:00:46.620 and,
01:00:46.860 and everything else.
01:00:48.300 So yeah,
01:00:48.840 so what do you do,
01:00:49.600 like the Rolling Stone case,
01:00:51.840 right?
01:00:52.080 listen,
01:00:52.880 let me tell you about that.
01:00:55.060 If this woman 0.99
01:00:56.040 on her big contract
01:00:57.100 at Rolling Stone
01:00:58.020 had turned out.
01:01:01.560 If you'd like to continue
01:01:02.700 listening to this conversation,
01:01:04.280 you'll need to subscribe
01:01:05.200 at samharris.org.
01:01:06.920 Once you do,
01:01:07.740 you'll get access
01:01:08.240 to all full-length episodes
01:01:09.520 of the Making Sense podcast
01:01:10.540 along with other
01:01:11.760 subscriber-only content
01:01:12.980 including bonus episodes
01:01:14.820 and AMAs
01:01:15.880 and the conversations
01:01:16.940 I've been having
01:01:17.500 on the Waking Up app.
01:01:19.060 The Making Sense podcast
01:01:19.960 is ad-free
01:01:20.820 and relies entirely
01:01:22.240 on listener support
01:01:23.120 and you can subscribe now
01:01:24.880 at samharris.org.