Making Sense - Sam Harris - August 26, 2019


#167 β€” A Few Thoughts on White Supremacy


Episode Stats

Length

16 minutes

Words per Minute

138.15005

Word Count

2,320

Sentence Count

145

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

11


Summary

Trump is a buffoon, but he's also a racist, and there's no evidence of racism in his tweets about the Democratic congresswomen who came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, if they even have functioning government at all, now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don't they go back to their own countries, when, in fact, this is their country? I mean, honestly, it's like looking at one's own colonoscopy, if done by a madman. Once again, this man is not a genius. He's not a bad buffoon. And there is no doubt that he's a racist. But again, in my view, this isn't clear evidence of Racism, because these women come from countries where racism is a problem, and the problem is the problem itself, not the people on the right as far as the left is concerned. And there would have been a better way to fix the problem than telling us how to fix it than by telling us all how to run the greatest nation on Earth on the greatest planet on the earth, which is the greatest country on the planet, if we don't have a president who is also racist. Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast, in which I try to make sense of the facts and make sense out of them. Make sense of it all, and try to not let the facts get in the way of the rest of us. Make sense, and let's make sense together, shall we all agree that it's all of this is not complicated at all. -Sam Harris - Make sense? and we can all be better together. Thank you for listening to the making sense, let's all be kinder together, and more kinder, more understanding each other, more thoughtful, and less meaner, and better together, more of ourselves, more human, more like ourselves, and kinder more like each other better, more beautiful, more aware of each other. and so on, and so much more. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you for being kinder and more understanding us all, more and more of you, yay! byeeeee, more than enough, more, more love, more empathy, more respect, more gratitude, more appreciation, more sympathy, more support, and a little more.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris.
00:00:04.520 Okay, well it seems like I got into trouble in a housekeeping I did for the Judea Pearl podcast.
00:00:13.020 I recorded that in the immediate aftermath of the mass shootings in the U.S. and El Paso and Dayton.
00:00:20.360 Many people sent me emails and tweets suggesting that I look at my subreddit,
00:00:27.380 which apparently has been going haywire for quite some time.
00:00:30.960 I think half the people in my subreddit despise me, so it's a perpetual state of war there.
00:00:37.720 But my comments on the mass shootings and white supremacy, white nationalism, racism, etc.
00:00:45.900 seem to have caused people to go fairly berserk there.
00:00:49.780 So I looked into this. I don't usually look at Reddit.
00:00:51.940 But I couldn't get very far. I mean, honestly, it was like looking at one's own colonoscopy,
00:00:57.880 if done by a madman. It was not a pretty sight.
00:01:02.220 Some people were defending me, so thank you for that.
00:01:05.180 But the subreddit really is bizarre.
00:01:08.980 In any case, it seems like I could clarify a few things, which I will do now.
00:01:13.760 One thing that people seem to have taken issue with and widely misunderstood
00:01:19.400 was my claim that Trump's go-back-to-your-own-countries tweets were not clear signs of his racism.
00:01:31.560 Now, I've long said that I have no doubt that Trump is racist,
00:01:34.820 but I've often said that we have to be precise in making these allegations, right?
00:01:39.140 My problem with the left is that it's finding evidence of racism everywhere,
00:01:44.160 even where it manifestly does not exist.
00:01:46.920 And here was a case in Trump's recent tweets against the so-called squad,
00:01:52.900 where it was susceptible to other readings, right?
00:01:56.060 And I thought it was counterproductive to seize upon these tweets as clear signs of his racism
00:02:03.120 and indeed his white supremacy.
00:02:05.240 And to remind you of how overheated this context is,
00:02:09.040 when Nancy Pelosi criticized the squad,
00:02:12.560 she was attacked as dog-whistling to white supremacists,
00:02:16.700 which is patently insane.
00:02:19.320 So that's the context.
00:02:21.780 And again, I'm giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here,
00:02:26.040 which I think I should always do because I despise the man.
00:02:31.160 People often accuse me of claiming that I have no biases.
00:02:35.520 That's simply untrue.
00:02:37.280 I have biases, and I try to correct for them.
00:02:40.960 Here's my bias.
00:02:42.560 I find Trump to be one of the most repellent human beings I can think of.
00:02:47.420 That is a significant bias.
00:02:50.040 I should be bending over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt when there is a doubt.
00:02:55.160 And the left should do likewise, especially if they don't want four more years of Trump in office.
00:03:02.160 So let's go to the tweets.
00:03:04.220 This is what Trump tweeted.
00:03:06.900 So interesting to see, quote, progressive Democrat congresswomen,
00:03:11.760 who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe,
00:03:16.640 the worst, most corrupt, and inept anywhere in the world,
00:03:20.260 if they even have functioning government at all,
00:03:22.400 now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States,
00:03:26.540 the greatest and most powerful nation on earth, how our government is to be run.
00:03:30.860 Why don't they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came,
00:03:36.320 then come back and show us how?
00:03:38.600 Okay, well, the president is clearly expressing contempt for these four congresswomen
00:03:44.260 and contempt for the countries he imagines they came from.
00:03:49.280 Now, his error here, his main error, is that only one of them is an immigrant,
00:03:55.480 Ilhan Omar from Somalia.
00:03:57.440 And Somalia is precisely one of those countries that fits Trump's description here.
00:04:02.800 But the fact that Trump was wrong about the other three congresswomen,
00:04:07.540 they're all natural-born U.S. citizens,
00:04:10.040 that is being interpreted as a symptom of his racism, right?
00:04:14.740 Go back to your own countries when, in fact, this is their country.
00:04:17.760 I ascribe this to Trump's ignorance.
00:04:20.980 He couldn't be bothered to figure out who these people were.
00:04:24.320 He might not be able to name all four of them.
00:04:26.500 I bet he knows Ilhan Omar.
00:04:28.360 He knows AOC.
00:04:29.980 Does he know Rashida Tlaib and Ayanna Pressley?
00:04:34.300 I wouldn't bet on it.
00:04:36.320 It is easy to imagine that he just assumed they were all immigrants
00:04:40.180 or was just speaking about Ilhan Omar.
00:04:43.280 Once again, this falls into the evil Chauncey Gardner framing.
00:04:48.040 He is not playing four-dimensional chess.
00:04:50.580 He's not a genius.
00:04:52.200 He is a buffoon.
00:04:53.780 And I'm sure he's also a racist.
00:04:56.600 But again, this isn't clear evidence, in my view, of racism.
00:05:01.120 Had these women come from Ireland, right, at the height of the potato famine,
00:05:06.000 Trump could easily have said, go back to your own starving country and fix that
00:05:10.400 before telling us how to run the greatest nation on Earth.
00:05:13.640 And there would have been no implication of racism.
00:05:16.660 And the problem is, the left is as fixated on race as the far right is.
00:05:24.060 And that is not a recipe for good politics.
00:05:26.760 Anyway, that's the basis for my demurral about Trump's tweets.
00:05:34.060 He's an ignoramus and a blowhard and a bully.
00:05:37.800 And sometimes that's the most parsimonious explanation for the chaos he causes.
00:05:44.400 But there was much more on the topic of white supremacy.
00:05:48.300 And it appears to be widely believed that I use a double standard
00:05:52.600 when thinking about white supremacy and jihadism.
00:05:56.760 Okay, well, first, intellectual honesty is really my master variable here.
00:06:05.060 And this might sound fairly preening of me to say,
00:06:09.120 but read my book, Lying, if you want to understand my view on honesty in general.
00:06:14.080 And this dictates a somewhat unusual way of speaking.
00:06:19.080 And people seem to read into it something sinister when nothing sinister is there.
00:06:25.640 So I'll give you two examples of how this happens routinely.
00:06:30.240 If some terrible person makes a valid point,
00:06:35.320 I'm not going to pretend that he's wrong just because he's a terrible person.
00:06:41.420 A logically or factually or even ethically true statement
00:06:46.540 is no less true if a serial killer or a neo-Nazi or some other repellent person
00:06:54.460 has observed it to be so.
00:06:58.120 So this gets me into trouble occasionally.
00:07:01.140 And there's a related principle here, which is whatever the topic,
00:07:04.940 it could be race, it could be violence,
00:07:07.980 guns, terrorism, immigration, whatever it is.
00:07:12.700 An honest walk through it will flirt with points that support the side you don't like.
00:07:20.500 And in fact, these may be points raised by terrible people
00:07:23.360 to support a position you don't like
00:07:26.260 and may be right not to like.
00:07:30.080 So, for example, this is the kind of thing that came up
00:07:33.360 in my recent conversation with Jared Diamond, right?
00:07:37.580 At one point we were talking about Japan
00:07:40.540 and there was a point I'd heard white supremacists make
00:07:46.520 in defense of their own immigration stance, right?
00:07:50.920 Which is to say they want no immigration,
00:07:53.060 they want to live in a white ethnostate.
00:07:54.720 And then when right-thinking people attack this
00:07:57.580 as a symptom of pure evil,
00:07:59.920 the white supremacist might say,
00:08:02.940 well, what about Japan?
00:08:04.360 Japan has the same policy.
00:08:06.180 The Japanese want to keep Japan for the Japanese.
00:08:09.620 They don't want any pink-skinned barbarians living among them, right?
00:08:14.620 Why isn't that a racist policy?
00:08:17.960 Now, that's actually an interesting point.
00:08:21.140 So this is something I brought up with Jared
00:08:22.840 just to talk about Japan.
00:08:24.720 Because it's interesting, right?
00:08:26.940 So, you know, what about Japan?
00:08:28.660 Why aren't we viewing this policy
00:08:31.460 as shocking evidence of a racist worldview?
00:08:37.860 Or something, if not racism, something.
00:08:40.980 You know, I'm happy to take that point from Hitler himself
00:08:44.400 if it's interesting.
00:08:46.940 The source simply doesn't matter.
00:08:49.340 Anyway, this seems to be the kind of thing
00:08:50.940 that can make people think
00:08:52.560 that the mask is slipping, right?
00:08:56.600 Or that I'm dog-whistling
00:08:58.320 in some way to extremists.
00:09:02.680 Or that I have a secret affinity
00:09:05.400 for white supremacists
00:09:08.120 or racists or whoever.
00:09:10.160 So, let's talk about white supremacy
00:09:14.000 and jihadism
00:09:16.280 and how I have spoken about each in the past.
00:09:20.620 Just so there's no confusion here,
00:09:23.880 I'll make a few declarative statements.
00:09:27.020 White supremacy
00:09:27.900 is a real phenomenon.
00:09:30.900 It is an ideology.
00:09:31.900 And it is a source of violence.
00:09:35.500 No question about that.
00:09:37.420 The question is,
00:09:38.560 how big a problem is it?
00:09:41.400 How well-subscribed is it?
00:09:43.500 What exactly do white supremacists believe?
00:09:46.300 Why do they believe it?
00:09:47.860 What do they want to do?
00:09:49.620 What are they likely to be able to do?
00:09:52.440 And compare that
00:09:53.600 to the same set of questions
00:09:55.180 for jihadists.
00:09:57.040 If there's an apparent double standard
00:09:59.220 in how I relate to these two phenomena,
00:10:02.800 it's the result of my giving
00:10:04.680 different answers
00:10:05.760 to those questions.
00:10:07.760 So, to make it even more precise,
00:10:10.620 what percent of white people,
00:10:14.500 however we define that group,
00:10:17.000 are white supremacists
00:10:18.400 or are fond
00:10:20.700 of white supremacist organizations
00:10:24.420 if they're not members themselves
00:10:26.560 or would support them
00:10:28.100 and who either publicly
00:10:31.260 or privately
00:10:32.280 celebrate their violence?
00:10:35.340 Right?
00:10:35.520 So, you hear that
00:10:36.480 some white supremacist
00:10:38.240 went into a mosque
00:10:39.300 or a synagogue
00:10:40.360 or a school
00:10:41.860 and killed 20 people
00:10:43.900 and left some manifesto online.
00:10:46.980 What percent of white people
00:10:49.540 in the U.S., say,
00:10:52.780 recognize that to be
00:10:54.320 a valid expression
00:10:56.000 of an ideology
00:10:57.500 that they support?
00:10:59.260 To pick a concentric circle
00:11:00.960 further out than that,
00:11:02.960 what percent of white people
00:11:04.240 are just not quite sure
00:11:06.620 how they feel about it?
00:11:08.160 They're kind of open-minded.
00:11:09.840 You know, maybe that school
00:11:10.720 did have to be shot up.
00:11:12.920 Right?
00:11:13.080 Maybe those Jews
00:11:14.460 in that synagogue
00:11:15.240 said something
00:11:16.600 that warranted
00:11:17.700 their murder.
00:11:18.960 How many people
00:11:19.660 fall into that category?
00:11:21.800 And,
00:11:23.160 conversely,
00:11:23.700 we should ask
00:11:24.700 all these questions
00:11:25.600 about jihadism,
00:11:27.500 jihadist terrorism,
00:11:29.000 and the full set
00:11:30.700 of the world's Muslims.
00:11:32.820 Right?
00:11:34.000 Now, I don't know
00:11:35.100 the precise answers
00:11:36.240 to these questions,
00:11:37.360 but we have enough data
00:11:39.640 to suggest
00:11:40.940 that they're different.
00:11:42.840 And I'll talk about
00:11:43.700 why I think that is.
00:11:45.260 But,
00:11:46.040 if you detect in me
00:11:47.660 a different attitude
00:11:49.200 toward these two phenomena,
00:11:51.280 this is one reason why.
00:11:52.560 Right?
00:11:53.400 I think that support
00:11:55.320 for jihadism
00:11:56.720 is far more common.
00:11:58.600 There's a far greater percentage
00:12:00.320 of the world's Muslims
00:12:01.800 who acknowledge
00:12:03.900 jihadism as legitimate.
00:12:05.960 The killing of apostates
00:12:07.680 and blasphemers.
00:12:09.500 Committing murder
00:12:10.320 in defense of the faith
00:12:12.060 as legitimate.
00:12:13.420 And that's not an accident.
00:12:14.920 Now, what that percentage is,
00:12:16.100 again,
00:12:16.640 I can't give you
00:12:17.900 an exact number,
00:12:19.420 but it's not 1%.
00:12:20.880 It's not 2%.
00:12:22.340 It's a far more
00:12:23.780 disconcerting number
00:12:24.700 than that.
00:12:25.840 But if it were only 10%
00:12:27.380 of the world's Muslims
00:12:28.440 that had a soft spot
00:12:30.580 for jihadism,
00:12:32.160 that would be
00:12:32.880 an enormous problem
00:12:33.760 worth thinking about.
00:12:35.320 That's a civilizational problem.
00:12:37.180 That's a problem
00:12:37.800 that probably exists
00:12:39.000 in half the world's countries,
00:12:41.540 if not more.
00:12:42.240 what percentage
00:12:43.740 of white people,
00:12:46.100 again,
00:12:46.640 I don't know
00:12:47.220 how you define that,
00:12:48.120 but anyone
00:12:49.180 who could conceivably
00:12:50.120 be a white supremacist,
00:12:52.480 what percentage
00:12:53.020 of white people
00:12:53.760 have a soft spot
00:12:55.500 for white supremacy?
00:12:58.080 To be clear,
00:12:59.120 this is not
00:12:59.720 the same thing
00:13:00.620 as asking
00:13:01.120 what percentage
00:13:02.200 of white people
00:13:02.900 are a little racist,
00:13:05.360 right?
00:13:05.640 That's different,
00:13:06.680 right?
00:13:06.820 There are people
00:13:07.240 who recognize
00:13:08.280 in themselves
00:13:09.080 racial bias
00:13:10.620 who are absolutely
00:13:12.880 appalled
00:13:13.540 by ideological racism,
00:13:16.680 just as there are
00:13:17.880 Muslims who take
00:13:18.860 Islam seriously
00:13:20.020 who are appalled
00:13:22.060 by jihadism,
00:13:24.660 right,
00:13:24.860 and appalled
00:13:25.420 by a group like ISIS.
00:13:27.380 Certainly,
00:13:27.820 that's got to be
00:13:28.600 a majority of Muslims,
00:13:30.700 otherwise,
00:13:31.580 the game would be over.
00:13:33.240 So,
00:13:33.740 what percentage
00:13:34.840 of white people
00:13:35.780 in the U.S.
00:13:37.780 do you think
00:13:38.380 sort of like
00:13:40.320 the neo-Nazis,
00:13:42.020 the KKK,
00:13:43.200 or other white supremacist
00:13:44.340 groups,
00:13:45.060 or are poised
00:13:45.740 to join them?
00:13:47.000 Again,
00:13:47.300 I don't know
00:13:47.660 the data on this.
00:13:48.640 I don't know
00:13:48.980 that we can trust
00:13:49.780 the data on this.
00:13:51.820 It's unfortunate
00:13:52.700 that some of the groups
00:13:54.700 whose job it is
00:13:56.180 to give us
00:13:56.820 data of this sort
00:13:58.020 have now proven
00:13:59.240 themselves to be
00:14:00.140 totally unreliable.
00:14:02.340 The Southern Poverty Law Center
00:14:03.560 has just
00:14:05.060 immolated itself
00:14:06.280 by more or less
00:14:07.940 calling everyone
00:14:08.840 in sight
00:14:09.380 a neo-Nazi.
00:14:10.980 As you might remember,
00:14:11.980 they called
00:14:12.420 my friend Majid Nawaz
00:14:13.920 an anti-Muslim
00:14:14.940 extremist.
00:14:16.480 He's, in fact,
00:14:17.200 a Muslim reformer.
00:14:18.960 They had to pay him
00:14:20.180 over $3 million
00:14:21.000 for that defamation.
00:14:23.820 They've gone nuts
00:14:24.620 over there,
00:14:25.920 and yet,
00:14:26.960 they're still assumed
00:14:27.620 to be reliable
00:14:29.100 brokers of information
00:14:30.140 on white nationalism
00:14:31.360 and Christian
00:14:32.920 identitarian
00:14:33.800 extremism
00:14:34.880 in the U.S.
00:14:36.640 Unfortunately,
00:14:37.240 they're not,
00:14:38.140 and that's a loss
00:14:39.880 for all of us.
00:14:41.380 In any case,
00:14:42.420 what do you think
00:14:43.000 the number is?
00:14:44.400 Whatever you think
00:14:45.080 it is will dictate
00:14:46.140 how big a problem
00:14:47.540 you consider
00:14:48.620 white supremacy
00:14:49.280 to be
00:14:49.820 in the U.S.
00:14:51.440 Now,
00:14:52.140 I will grant you,
00:14:54.140 we are just
00:14:54.620 one large
00:14:55.660 incident away
00:14:56.660 from being convinced
00:14:58.240 that white supremacy
00:14:59.060 is a major problem.
00:15:01.040 If we had another
00:15:01.980 bombing the size
00:15:02.880 of Oklahoma City
00:15:03.920 now in the current
00:15:05.160 environment,
00:15:06.020 there's no question
00:15:06.860 white supremacy
00:15:08.220 would be
00:15:09.240 our foremost concern,
00:15:11.640 at least for a while.
00:15:13.120 And that's regardless
00:15:13.800 of how many people
00:15:14.480 we think
00:15:14.920 are actually involved
00:15:16.280 in it.
00:15:16.940 But it's an empirical
00:15:17.880 question
00:15:18.460 to determine
00:15:20.640 how many people
00:15:21.780 are sympathetic
00:15:22.940 with this ideology.
00:15:25.020 So,
00:15:25.680 let me first admit
00:15:26.280 that I could be wrong
00:15:27.240 about this.
00:15:28.900 Right?
00:15:29.120 My intuitions
00:15:29.740 could be wrong,
00:15:30.380 my reading of the news
00:15:32.560 could be biased,
00:15:34.520 but I believe
00:15:35.900 that while it's scary,
00:15:37.640 white supremacy
00:15:38.200 is still
00:15:39.140 the fringe
00:15:40.260 of the fringe
00:15:40.940 in the United States.
00:15:43.340 And this is not
00:15:44.580 to deny
00:15:45.420 how Trump
00:15:46.820 has given comfort
00:15:47.660 to racists
00:15:48.760 everywhere.
00:15:49.700 This is not to deny
00:15:50.760 how this could
00:15:51.900 become
00:15:53.020 suddenly
00:15:53.740 a much bigger problem
00:15:54.740 in the future.
00:15:56.440 Let's just get our
00:15:57.420 bearings here
00:15:57.980 for a second.
00:15:58.660 I'm accused
00:16:00.280 of being
00:16:01.640 a white supremacist.
00:16:04.120 Right?
00:16:04.640 Or of dog-whistling
00:16:05.700 to white supremacists.
00:16:07.840 That's the level
00:16:08.940 of the
00:16:09.940 criticism here.
00:16:11.540 Or not being worried
00:16:12.860 about white supremacy
00:16:13.720 because
00:16:14.280 I'm a racist
00:16:15.700 who sort of agrees
00:16:16.980 with
00:16:17.700 their whole role.
00:16:18.760 words of prose
00:16:20.640 or not being
00:16:20.880 either improper
00:16:21.860 or sexually
00:16:22.280 from Haskell
00:16:22.340 after a second.
00:16:22.720 Or not being
00:16:23.900 a white supremacist.
00:16:24.040 That's a great
00:16:25.260 word of being
00:16:25.320 rather,
00:16:25.780 like,
00:16:26.140 est about
00:16:27.620 what are
00:16:27.980 akan
00:16:28.360 to厘