Making Sense - Sam Harris - #176 — Knowledge & Redemption

00:00:00.980 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris.

00:00:05.800 Okay, no housekeeping apart from the now recurring reminder that if you're supporting the podcast,

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00:00:35.440 That doesn't matter right now, but it will matter pretty soon.

00:00:40.300 Okay, today I'm speaking with Lynn Novick and Jewel Hall.

00:00:45.900 Lynn is an Emmy and Peabody award-winning documentary filmmaker.

00:00:50.280 She has been producing and directing documentaries for nearly 30 years,

00:00:56.040 very often in collaboration with Ken Burns.

00:00:59.360 And Lynn and Ken were on this podcast not too long ago,

00:01:04.040 talking about their 18-hour documentary, The Vietnam War.

00:01:08.840 And of course they've done baseball and jazz and Frank Lloyd Wright and the war and Prohibition.

00:01:15.920 And I believe Lynn worked with Ken all the way back to his truly groundbreaking documentary,

00:01:21.340 The Civil War.

00:01:21.940 But this new film is Lynn's solo directorial debut.

00:01:29.160 And it's a four-hour documentary series that she produced with Sarah Botstein.

00:01:34.260 And the film is College Behind Bars.

00:01:38.940 And it really is an extraordinary documentary.

00:01:43.180 As you'll hear, it fairly blew me away.

00:01:46.720 So much so that I really want, as I say at the end of this interview,

00:01:52.340 this podcast to function as a mere commercial for the documentary.

00:01:58.520 You know, as much as I like talking to Lynn and Jewel, who I'll introduce in a moment,

00:02:03.480 the conversation that we had is not only no substitute for seeing the film,

00:02:07.480 it really provides no indication of how powerful this documentary is.

00:02:14.140 So if this podcast does nothing more than inspire you to tune in to your local PBS station

00:02:19.580 on Monday, November 25th, when the first episode drops,

00:02:24.560 it will have served its entire purpose.

00:02:28.500 The film, again the title of which is College Behind Bars,

00:02:32.900 covers the work of the Bard Prison Initiative,

00:02:35.860 which is giving a college education to people in prison.

00:02:41.440 And the transformational power of this is so great

00:02:45.920 that you really just have to bear witness to it by watching the film.

00:02:50.820 And I'm inspired enough by this work to give all of the revenue

00:02:56.500 coming into the podcast associated with this episode

00:02:59.920 to the Bard Prison Initiative.

00:03:01.960 So I will be doing that upon its release.

00:03:07.440 Anyways, frequent listeners to the podcast know

00:03:09.880 it's not often that I entirely subordinate the show

00:03:13.520 to merely shilling for someone else's project.

00:03:17.900 But in this case, the project is so good

00:03:21.160 and so worthy of support

00:03:24.540 that that's exactly what I am doing and should do.

00:03:28.860 My other guest today is Jewel Hall

00:03:31.500 who completed the Bard program while in prison

00:03:34.560 and he was in prison for 22 years.

00:03:38.060 He is now out

00:03:38.780 and he got an undergraduate degree in German studies

00:03:42.620 through Bard

00:03:43.460 and then when he got out

00:03:45.120 he continued by doing graduate work in public health

00:03:47.960 and he is now a program associate for the Ford Foundation

00:03:52.200 where he provides data analysis and strategy development.

00:03:56.140 Anyway, it was a great pleasure to get Jewel on the podcast as well.

00:04:00.500 And now without further delay,

00:04:02.060 I bring you Lynn Novick and Jewel Hall.

00:04:08.720 I am here with Lynn Novick and Jewel Hall.

00:04:11.540 Lynn and Jewel, thank you for joining me.

00:04:13.600 Thank you, Sam.

00:04:14.500 Our pleasure. Thank you.

00:04:16.600 So Lynn, I'll start with you.

00:04:18.340 You've been on the podcast before previously

00:04:20.720 with your frequent collaborator, Ken Burns.

00:04:24.480 This was for the Vietnam War documentary

00:04:26.720 which you made

00:04:27.460 which was astonishing

00:04:29.060 and was made doubly astonishing

00:04:31.380 because I decided to watch

00:04:34.000 I think it was 15 hours of it

00:04:36.220 in the 24 hours before we actually spoke.

00:04:40.360 So I just basically came from the front

00:04:42.580 to get on our podcast together.

00:04:45.680 So I was slightly deranged in that conversation.

00:04:48.200 But that was an amazing film.

00:04:50.180 And then you, as many people know,

00:04:52.540 have made many other remarkable films together

00:04:55.700 with Ken starting with the Civil War

00:04:57.940 and baseball and jazz

00:05:00.140 and the war and Prohibition.

00:05:02.880 But this new series you have,

00:05:05.340 College Behind Bars,

00:05:07.200 I mean, this is so arresting

00:05:09.540 in a very different way.

00:05:11.280 I mean, I guess the main variable here

00:05:13.440 is that this isn't a historical documentary.

00:05:16.460 You're exploring a problem

00:05:18.240 that we're all living with now.

00:05:20.300 And that's born home

00:05:22.380 really in every minute of this thing.

00:05:24.780 And it's just,

00:05:25.500 as a caveat to everything we're going to say here,

00:05:28.820 I'm hoping we'll have a great conversation.

00:05:30.780 But there's no way this conversation

00:05:32.920 is a surrogate for seeing the film you've made.

00:05:36.840 We will tell people where

00:05:38.580 and how they can do that at the end.

00:05:40.200 But in fact, let's just do that up front.

00:05:42.800 Where is this being released

00:05:44.520 and where can people see College Behind Bars?

00:05:47.720 Sure, yeah.

00:05:48.680 The film airs on PBS.

00:05:50.160 It's a four-part series

00:05:51.140 and it's airing in two chunks

00:05:53.360 on November 25th and 26th,

00:05:55.760 the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving,

00:05:57.740 9 East Coast time.

00:05:59.500 I'm not sure in the middle of the country

00:06:00.920 if it might be at 8.

00:06:02.200 And it'll be streaming on PBS.org

00:06:04.240 and on the PBS app.

00:06:06.000 And it'll be streaming for 60 days.

00:06:08.700 Great.

00:06:09.700 And I'm going to wait to introduce you, Jewel,

00:06:12.100 because we've got to figure out

00:06:13.160 what the context is here.

00:06:15.020 Lynn, tell me what the Bard Prison Initiative is

00:06:19.840 and how this came to be the focus of your film.

00:06:23.340 Well, in 2012,

00:06:25.760 we were finishing promoting our film

00:06:27.580 on Prohibition that Ken and I made

00:06:30.100 with Sarah Botstein, our producer.

00:06:31.680 And Sarah and I were invited to give a guest lecture

00:06:33.900 about the film in a college class.

00:06:36.420 And we'd been traveling around the country

00:06:38.020 doing interviews and talking about the film

00:06:40.480 and showing clips.

00:06:41.540 In fact, we had been in Washington at the White House

00:06:43.440 doing a screening for top law students

00:06:46.160 in the D.C. area a few weeks before.

00:06:48.100 So we'd done a lot of talking about the film

00:06:49.500 and we went into this college class,

00:06:51.760 which happened to be part of something called

00:06:53.120 the Bard Prison Initiative,

00:06:54.640 which is a program that offers college degrees

00:06:56.680 to people who are incarcerated.

00:06:58.540 So Sarah and I went into a maximum security prison

00:07:00.460 with our clip reel

00:07:01.200 and the professor who was teaching this course.

00:07:03.520 And we showed our clips

00:07:04.520 like we'd been doing all around the country.

00:07:06.420 And we weren't sure what to expect.

00:07:08.060 And we had the most interesting

00:07:09.600 and thoughtful and serious

00:07:11.940 and sophisticated conversation

00:07:14.240 with the students

00:07:15.060 in the maximum security prison in the classroom.

00:07:18.240 And, you know,

00:07:19.400 it was sort of intellectually

00:07:20.580 incredibly challenging and thrilling

00:07:22.020 and also sort of overwhelming

00:07:24.220 to think about having that conversation

00:07:25.660 in that place.

00:07:26.820 And that was so sort of stunning to us

00:07:29.760 that as we left the prison,

00:07:31.260 Sarah and I said to each other,

00:07:32.460 this was an extraordinary experience.

00:07:34.160 We did not realize this was happening here.

00:07:36.620 This would be an amazing film.

00:07:38.580 We weren't thinking

00:07:39.380 that we would actually make it at the moment

00:07:40.760 because we were just embarking

00:07:42.040 on our Vietnam series in 2012.

00:07:44.240 But over time,

00:07:45.440 we got more interested

00:07:46.740 and sort of involved.

00:07:48.020 I taught in the program myself

00:07:49.420 the following year.

00:07:51.280 And Sarah taught some courses with me.

00:07:53.680 And we just decided

00:07:55.260 that this was too important a story

00:07:56.760 to have anybody else do it.

00:07:58.500 And we decided to throw our hat in the ring

00:07:59.860 and make the film.

00:08:01.420 We're going to get into

00:08:02.560 what it's like for the viewer

00:08:04.320 to watch this.

00:08:05.400 But now let me just bring Jewel in here 1.00

00:08:08.040 because Jewel,

00:08:08.620 you are an alum of the program.

00:08:11.900 And I guess I want to really talk

00:08:14.320 about your whole experience,

00:08:15.880 you know, from childhood really.

00:08:18.200 But before we get there,

00:08:19.120 just tell us what you're doing now

00:08:21.580 since you left BPI.

00:08:23.400 I'm a program associate

00:08:24.420 with the Ford Foundation

00:08:25.720 where I do strategy development

00:08:27.980 and data analysis.

00:08:30.040 Nice.

00:08:30.540 Before we get into the actual

00:08:32.300 kind of journey you create

00:08:35.300 for the viewer through the film,

00:08:36.560 Lynn, I just want to talk

00:08:37.640 about the context

00:08:38.560 in which we're having

00:08:40.460 this conversation.

00:08:41.520 Because one thing

00:08:43.580 that's borne home

00:08:45.160 really poignantly in this film

00:08:48.460 is that, you know,

00:08:50.020 as hopeful as this all is,

00:08:51.900 because we meet

00:08:53.120 these extraordinary students,

00:08:55.260 you know, who are incarcerated,

00:08:56.960 but they're making most of them

00:08:59.980 such immense progress

00:09:01.680 through this education program

00:09:04.280 that it's an incredibly hopeful

00:09:06.460 look at what is happening

00:09:09.480 for these people

00:09:10.060 and what is possible.

00:09:11.740 And yet the knowledge

00:09:13.440 that this is such a rare experience

00:09:15.880 for someone in prison

00:09:17.280 gives a feeling of, you know,

00:09:20.080 desperation and futility

00:09:22.300 even as well for the viewer.

00:09:24.280 So it really is a,

00:09:26.760 the light and the dark

00:09:27.820 of this are borne home

00:09:30.080 more or less every minute

00:09:32.080 of watching this film.

00:09:33.640 And the context in which

00:09:35.320 we're having this conversation

00:09:36.160 is one in which

00:09:36.920 new laws are likely

00:09:39.840 to be passed

00:09:41.060 that affect this.

00:09:42.520 And we have a history

00:09:43.460 of passing some

00:09:45.040 very bad laws

00:09:46.620 with respect to educating

00:09:48.500 people who are incarcerated.

00:09:50.660 I don't know which one of you

00:09:51.560 wants to take this,

00:09:52.580 but can you just sketch

00:09:53.860 what the picture is here

00:09:55.280 of just how many people

00:09:56.340 are in prison

00:09:56.900 and what we spend

00:09:58.660 and what we don't spend

00:09:59.680 and how crazily masochistic

00:10:01.920 this all is?

00:10:02.920 You know, in some ways

00:10:03.980 the numbers are shocking

00:10:04.840 in and of themselves

00:10:05.520 and then the actual human waste

00:10:07.460 and cost is even more devastating.

00:10:10.080 America has 2.2 million people

00:10:11.560 locked up in prisons

00:10:12.500 and jails across the country.

00:10:14.000 We have over-incarcerated

00:10:16.480 to such an epic scale

00:10:17.760 that we're the world's

00:10:18.900 largest jailer

00:10:19.560 proportional to our population.

00:10:20.700 And we spend $80 billion a year

00:10:23.320 to do that.

00:10:25.000 And the recidivism rate

00:10:26.860 is very high.

00:10:28.220 And most people

00:10:28.760 who are incarcerated

00:10:29.400 do not have access

00:10:30.300 to meaningful educational

00:10:31.920 opportunity

00:10:32.520 while incarcerated.

00:10:33.980 And many of them

00:10:34.880 did not have that access

00:10:35.660 before incarceration.

00:10:37.200 And so it's not really

00:10:38.020 a surprise that people

00:10:38.740 leave prison demoralized

00:10:40.580 and, you know,

00:10:41.660 unprepared

00:10:42.260 to return to society

00:10:44.460 and be productive citizens.

00:10:45.820 And you're right,

00:10:46.780 this program,

00:10:47.420 I mean, that's why Sarah

00:10:48.200 and I felt so strongly

00:10:49.000 about making the film.

00:10:50.360 It shows what is possible

00:10:51.580 and it is hopeful

00:10:53.280 and it also is

00:10:54.300 a huge indictment

00:10:55.400 of what has been going on.

00:10:57.100 And I think our society

00:10:58.000 hasn't paid enough attention.

00:10:59.780 Yeah, and one detail

00:11:00.840 that you mentioned,

00:11:01.940 I think,

00:11:02.240 in the first episode,

00:11:03.780 again, this is a four-part,

00:11:05.380 four-hour documentary,

00:11:07.560 is that it's over 600,000 people

00:11:09.940 are released every year

00:11:11.380 from prison

00:11:12.400 back into the population.

00:11:13.880 And the recidivism rate

00:11:15.460 is somewhere around 50%,

00:11:17.300 but it's only,

00:11:18.440 it's less than 4%

00:11:19.740 for people who go

00:11:20.780 through this program.

00:11:22.600 And first,

00:11:23.880 the politically inconvenient fact

00:11:25.440 that this was all made

00:11:26.600 much worse

00:11:27.440 by the Clinton crime bill

00:11:29.200 in 1994

00:11:30.140 when Pell grants

00:11:31.840 for inmates

00:11:32.740 were rescinded,

00:11:34.200 essentially.

00:11:34.720 And we should note

00:11:36.720 inconveniently

00:11:37.440 that this bill

00:11:38.000 was written

00:11:38.500 by Senator Joe Biden

00:11:40.160 and it appears

00:11:42.280 to have been disastrous.

00:11:43.540 I mean, do you think

00:11:44.500 I have that history right?

00:11:46.340 I do,

00:11:46.580 and I think Jewel

00:11:47.060 could speak about it

00:11:47.760 a little bit more

00:11:48.120 because he personally

00:11:49.500 experienced some of this.

00:11:50.940 Yeah, when I was incarcerated,

00:11:52.300 I was incarcerated in 1994

00:11:53.800 and in 1995,

00:11:55.460 that's when the bill

00:11:57.720 you referred to

00:11:58.500 was implemented

00:11:59.660 and I actually witnessed

00:12:01.060 the college programs

00:12:02.220 being pulled

00:12:03.280 out of the prison

00:12:04.560 I was in.

00:12:05.160 I was in

00:12:05.580 Kokosaki Correctional Facility

00:12:07.160 in New York State.

00:12:09.020 And you correctly

00:12:11.420 characterized it, Sam,

00:12:12.820 people were demoralized.

00:12:14.260 People felt hopeless.

00:12:15.800 There was a lot of worry

00:12:18.280 about how people

00:12:19.140 would continue

00:12:19.660 their education.

00:12:20.500 There was a lot of despair

00:12:22.060 about how a person

00:12:23.460 would survive

00:12:24.520 in this environment

00:12:25.460 that is violent,

00:12:27.620 laden with drugs,

00:12:29.160 and, you know,

00:12:30.460 not many constructive

00:12:31.980 opportunities

00:12:32.700 for people

00:12:33.360 who already

00:12:33.980 achieved

00:12:34.920 a high school diploma

00:12:35.980 or a high school

00:12:37.940 equivalency diploma.

00:12:39.860 There wasn't much

00:12:40.760 for people

00:12:41.160 to do anything

00:12:42.040 constructive.

00:12:42.780 So I actually

00:12:43.420 witnessed that period

00:12:44.600 from 1995

00:12:46.320 to when I personally

00:12:48.320 enrolled in BARD,

00:12:49.680 I think,

00:12:50.280 around 2003.

00:12:54.040 I saw that prison

00:12:55.620 was like a different place

00:12:56.980 when college

00:12:57.880 wasn't inside a prison.

00:12:59.000 And the BARD program

00:13:00.320 is privately funded,

00:13:02.040 right?

00:13:02.860 So there's no longer

00:13:04.000 taxpayer funding

00:13:05.120 for this.

00:13:06.680 But this really

00:13:07.700 directs us

00:13:08.820 to the question

00:13:09.400 which you raise

00:13:10.360 explicitly at one point,

00:13:12.480 Lynn,

00:13:12.680 in the film

00:13:13.240 of what is the purpose

00:13:15.900 of prison?

00:13:17.340 We're incarcerating people

00:13:19.600 for at least two reasons,

00:13:22.940 as punishment

00:13:24.060 and to warehouse people

00:13:26.600 and to take people

00:13:27.360 off the street

00:13:28.120 who we deem

00:13:28.940 dangerous

00:13:30.220 in many cases.

00:13:31.960 But in the vast

00:13:32.760 majority of cases,

00:13:34.140 we know we're going

00:13:35.320 to release these people

00:13:36.400 back to society.

00:13:38.080 And the fact

00:13:39.300 that we're not

00:13:40.020 taking the obvious

00:13:41.560 steps to rehabilitate them,

00:13:43.580 it just seems like

00:13:44.360 a self-inflicted wound

00:13:46.180 that you would never

00:13:47.000 imagine we would

00:13:48.340 commit upon ourselves,

00:13:49.740 you know,

00:13:50.160 with open eyes.

00:13:51.220 And somehow we did,

00:13:52.620 which is a pretty

00:13:53.900 damning indictment

00:13:55.080 of our public policy

00:13:56.700 over the last 30,

00:13:57.760 40 years,

00:13:58.220 as we've, you know,

00:13:59.040 exponentially increased

00:13:59.860 the prison population

00:14:00.680 and taken away

00:14:02.000 the programs

00:14:03.200 that would make it

00:14:04.100 possible for people

00:14:04.640 to return to society.

00:14:05.560 95% of people,

00:14:06.600 like you said,

00:14:07.520 are coming home.

00:14:09.060 So, and then we blame

00:14:10.260 the people who come home

00:14:11.120 and aren't really prepared

00:14:12.100 for the failing

00:14:13.500 that is actually

00:14:14.760 on all of us.

00:14:16.500 And, you know,

00:14:17.900 I think for a lot of us

00:14:18.860 who haven't been,

00:14:19.420 who haven't been impacted

00:14:20.280 by the criminal justice system,

00:14:22.080 all of this has been happening

00:14:23.060 kind of offstage,

00:14:25.240 you know,

00:14:25.660 and I think as a society

00:14:27.140 we're beginning to pay

00:14:28.160 a lot more attention

00:14:28.780 to the sort of

00:14:31.200 criminal injustice,

00:14:32.340 mass incarceration,

00:14:33.540 the lack of opportunity

00:14:34.440 and rehabilitation.

00:14:36.000 But for a long time

00:14:37.300 it wasn't a central focus.

00:14:39.980 And I think a bigger issue

00:14:40.860 is also that people

00:14:42.400 on the inside

00:14:43.220 want something

00:14:44.320 to transform.

00:14:46.580 They want something

00:14:47.300 to give them

00:14:48.380 a platform

00:14:49.280 through which

00:14:49.920 they could change

00:14:50.520 their lives.

00:14:51.120 But at that time period

00:14:52.220 there wasn't nothing.

00:14:54.160 You know,

00:14:54.400 guys was literally

00:14:55.460 standing in the yard

00:14:56.600 most of the day

00:14:58.020 in front of a television

00:14:59.400 just watching TV

00:15:01.060 and, you know,

00:15:02.160 getting into trouble.

00:15:03.000 But people really

00:15:04.400 wanted something

00:15:05.360 to, you know,

00:15:06.580 motivate them

00:15:07.300 to make their

00:15:08.040 time in prison

00:15:09.260 less monotonous,

00:15:10.880 make it more constructive.

00:15:12.280 but college programs

00:15:14.080 had been pulled out

00:15:15.100 and, you know,

00:15:17.000 there was that despair.

00:15:19.940 Yeah, well,

00:15:20.160 the effect on

00:15:21.420 the people

00:15:22.700 in the program

00:15:23.640 is so stark

00:15:25.580 and just the way

00:15:26.860 in which it changes

00:15:28.000 their relationship

00:15:29.320 to being in prison.

00:15:30.180 I want to get to that

00:15:31.300 in your story, Jewel.

00:15:32.700 So let's just start

00:15:34.380 with really the beginning.

00:15:36.040 Where did you grow up?

00:15:37.620 I grew up in Brownsville,

00:15:38.980 Brooklyn,

00:15:39.460 in New York.

00:15:40.640 Brownsville, Brooklyn,

00:15:41.400 even I would say

00:15:43.020 maybe two years ago

00:15:43.980 was labeled

00:15:45.500 to have had

00:15:46.480 one of the most

00:15:47.240 violent streets

00:15:48.080 in New York City.

00:15:49.580 There was a lot

00:15:50.120 of violence

00:15:50.560 in my neighborhood

00:15:51.240 where I grew up.

00:15:53.240 I always loved school,

00:15:55.220 but, you know,

00:15:56.420 a lot of my peers

00:15:57.620 would pick on people

00:15:59.420 who showed

00:16:00.660 that attention to school.

00:16:01.780 So I kind of,

00:16:03.100 you know,

00:16:03.740 saw that it was feasible

00:16:05.400 to not let people

00:16:07.180 know that I love school

00:16:08.060 so much, you know.

00:16:10.040 I grew up

00:16:10.800 in a single-parent home

00:16:12.060 and I remember

00:16:13.920 wanting to come home

00:16:15.580 to do my homework,

00:16:16.740 actually.

00:16:17.420 I was excited about that.

00:16:19.240 Yeah.

00:16:19.780 So was this a,

00:16:21.220 I mean,

00:16:21.520 there's this phrase

00:16:22.440 acting white

00:16:23.400 that has been exported

00:16:24.980 from that experience.

00:16:27.460 Was that the framing

00:16:28.600 of it for you

00:16:29.540 among your peers?

00:16:30.600 No, I don't think

00:16:31.040 it was necessarily

00:16:31.880 about race

00:16:32.800 at that point.

00:16:33.700 I think it was just

00:16:34.500 a sense of who's cool,

00:16:36.220 you know,

00:16:36.620 young kids

00:16:37.320 who don't have

00:16:37.980 a perspective

00:16:38.540 on what life

00:16:39.440 really is about

00:16:40.160 and how education

00:16:41.140 fits into,

00:16:42.240 you know,

00:16:42.600 our lives.

00:16:43.560 So, you know,

00:16:44.360 it was more about girls

00:16:45.560 and hanging out

00:16:46.540 and, you know,

00:16:47.540 being seen

00:16:48.300 and you couldn't do

00:16:49.480 much of that

00:16:50.080 in school,

00:16:50.940 you know.

00:16:51.360 So it was that type

00:16:52.760 of criticism,

00:16:54.820 like,

00:16:54.960 oh, come hang out

00:16:55.600 with us

00:16:56.040 or, you know,

00:16:56.860 you should be

00:16:57.640 with this girl

00:16:58.700 or, you know,

00:17:00.100 and not in school.

00:17:01.140 So it was just

00:17:01.920 a general sense.

00:17:03.880 And were you in a gang

00:17:04.880 at that point?

00:17:05.800 No, I'd never

00:17:07.080 been in a gang,

00:17:08.660 although, you know,

00:17:09.900 I grew up in an area

00:17:10.820 where I had close

00:17:11.760 affinities with my neighbors,

00:17:13.300 you know,

00:17:13.700 but I never was

00:17:14.400 in a gang.

00:17:15.660 Right.

00:17:16.600 Okay, so how did

00:17:18.360 you wind up in prison?

00:17:20.120 I wound up in prison

00:17:21.360 because, you know,

00:17:22.500 I made some bad

00:17:23.260 decisions in life.

00:17:24.360 I basically,

00:17:25.240 you know,

00:17:25.640 like I said,

00:17:26.380 I stopped.

00:17:27.880 I actually had a prison

00:17:29.840 open my eyes to this.

00:17:31.800 Once I stopped

00:17:32.600 putting emphasis

00:17:33.260 on school,

00:17:34.300 once I stopped

00:17:35.260 focusing on school,

00:17:37.420 that's when I began

00:17:39.280 a life of,

00:17:40.480 you know,

00:17:40.840 being in the streets,

00:17:41.920 cutting class,

00:17:43.500 fighting,

00:17:44.500 that led me

00:17:45.760 to the situation

00:17:47.240 where I was incarcerated

00:17:48.400 for some violent act

00:17:51.020 that, you know,

00:17:52.740 was occurring in my area

00:17:55.060 where another guy

00:17:56.280 opened fire

00:17:57.120 on my,

00:17:58.080 right where I lived

00:17:59.020 and, you know,

00:18:00.020 I had this sense of,

00:18:01.220 you know,

00:18:01.520 this has happened before.

00:18:02.640 I don't know

00:18:03.160 how it's going to stop.

00:18:04.480 I think the only,

00:18:05.380 with my 17-year-old mind,

00:18:07.240 you know,

00:18:07.640 incorrectly thinking,

00:18:08.940 it's only going to stop

00:18:10.060 if somebody fight back.

00:18:11.680 And that just led

00:18:12.760 to a whole bunch

00:18:13.380 of things

00:18:13.780 that were destructive

00:18:15.680 and led me

00:18:16.420 right into prison cell.

00:18:19.080 So if I recall correctly,

00:18:21.260 you then retrieved a gun

00:18:23.800 and then a gunfight ensued

00:18:25.820 and then someone

00:18:26.720 who you were close with

00:18:28.900 in your neighborhood

00:18:30.320 got killed

00:18:31.540 as an innocent bystander

00:18:33.280 by, you know,

00:18:34.200 the person

00:18:35.040 who you were shooting at

00:18:36.920 wound up shooting

00:18:38.140 the person you knew

00:18:39.540 and then it was,

00:18:40.340 basically,

00:18:40.860 you were charged

00:18:42.260 as an accomplice

00:18:43.260 to that murder.

00:18:45.360 Is that correct?

00:18:46.480 Yes,

00:18:46.860 that's a fair assessment.

00:18:48.040 Yes.

00:18:49.120 So,

00:18:49.540 actually,

00:18:50.160 I want to,

00:18:50.800 this is one question

00:18:52.340 I have,

00:18:53.140 and again,

00:18:53.540 I want to get back

00:18:54.760 to your experience

00:18:56.160 going through the program,

00:18:57.060 Jewel,

00:18:57.240 but it seems to me

00:18:58.580 that there

00:18:59.120 must be people

00:19:01.480 who are not

00:19:03.340 suited

00:19:04.000 to the BPI program

00:19:05.920 for a variety

00:19:07.200 of reasons,

00:19:07.880 but,

00:19:08.580 I mean,

00:19:08.860 I guess

00:19:09.300 one effect

00:19:10.600 of watching

00:19:12.460 this film,

00:19:13.200 which is,

00:19:13.500 which is fairly startling,

00:19:14.980 is to be confronted

00:19:17.060 by the feeling

00:19:17.800 that the viewer's

00:19:19.160 expectation

00:19:19.620 of who's in prison

00:19:21.160 is fairly erroneous,

00:19:24.400 right?

00:19:24.600 I mean,

00:19:24.760 we're introduced

00:19:25.620 to people like Jewel,

00:19:27.740 it's like,

00:19:27.980 like half a dozen people

00:19:29.220 who are extremely charismatic

00:19:31.680 and filled with promise

00:19:34.440 and,

00:19:35.120 you know,

00:19:36.000 just being transformed

00:19:37.740 by education

00:19:39.220 and it's incredibly inspiring

00:19:41.460 and obviously

00:19:42.520 I don't want to discount

00:19:43.320 any of that,

00:19:44.260 but one also

00:19:45.620 has to assume

00:19:46.660 that there are people

00:19:47.620 in prison

00:19:48.140 who have committed crimes,

00:19:50.700 you know,

00:19:50.980 so terrible

00:19:51.660 or who are so,

00:19:53.280 you know,

00:19:53.840 incorrigible

00:19:54.580 or unrepentant

00:19:56.040 that they would never

00:19:57.700 even be considered

00:19:58.640 as candidates

00:20:00.080 for the program

00:20:00.900 and we're not,

00:20:01.420 we're not seeing

00:20:02.200 any of that

00:20:03.360 and I guess I just want

00:20:04.180 to ask Jewel

00:20:05.920 just what the,

00:20:07.120 the selection

00:20:08.360 criteria are like 1.00

00:20:10.520 for the program

00:20:11.480 and,

00:20:12.060 and just to give me

00:20:13.260 kind of a reality check

00:20:14.400 as to,

00:20:14.800 you know,

00:20:14.940 what are the kind of

00:20:15.560 background facts

00:20:16.560 of,

00:20:16.880 you know,

00:20:17.000 who else

00:20:17.540 were you in prison

00:20:18.840 with,

00:20:19.480 you know,

00:20:19.820 and,

00:20:20.120 and,

00:20:20.260 and that's

00:20:21.220 part of the context

00:20:22.660 in which you're

00:20:23.600 pursuing your education

00:20:24.740 at that point.

00:20:25.840 Well, Sam,

00:20:26.120 I would say this,

00:20:26.940 one,

00:20:28.040 being admitted

00:20:28.660 into the program,

00:20:30.180 there's an explicit

00:20:31.060 decision not

00:20:32.680 to consider your crime.

00:20:33.760 there's a sense

00:20:35.820 that with BPI

00:20:37.380 and many of the people

00:20:38.960 who support us

00:20:39.820 that,

00:20:40.280 you know,

00:20:40.740 no one is beyond

00:20:41.920 redemption

00:20:42.400 and whether it's

00:20:44.620 for the purposes

00:20:46.640 of release,

00:20:47.460 like Lynn just mentioned,

00:20:49.740 you know,

00:20:49.960 95% of the people

00:20:51.100 incarcerated

00:20:51.640 will come home

00:20:52.440 so we will want them

00:20:53.300 to return to society

00:20:54.720 to be better people

00:20:56.480 and contribute to society

00:20:57.900 like many BPI students

00:20:59.100 are doing now.

00:21:00.260 There's also,

00:21:01.020 I think we could

00:21:03.140 interview or talk

00:21:04.380 to officers,

00:21:05.240 correction officers

00:21:05.900 in the prison

00:21:06.520 who actually felt

00:21:07.940 that having a college

00:21:09.140 program improved

00:21:10.420 the day-to-day

00:21:12.700 operations of the prison

00:21:14.200 because guys,

00:21:15.660 regardless of their crime,

00:21:17.040 regardless of how much

00:21:18.020 time they had,

00:21:19.160 was more concerned

00:21:19.940 about,

00:21:20.480 you know,

00:21:21.040 taking care of their

00:21:22.320 classes and studying

00:21:24.100 and not getting in trouble

00:21:25.320 so it has a

00:21:26.860 constructive effect

00:21:27.800 on the prison itself

00:21:28.960 and not just about

00:21:30.040 people being released.

00:21:32.060 But one other thing

00:21:32.960 I would like to mention

00:21:33.780 is that

00:21:34.320 when it comes to

00:21:36.400 who is not able

00:21:38.480 to take the program,

00:21:39.560 I will also push back

00:21:40.900 against that a bit

00:21:41.740 because

00:21:42.260 one of the qualities,

00:21:44.080 one of the things

00:21:44.580 I think that

00:21:45.300 makes BPI

00:21:47.400 what it is

00:21:48.000 is that

00:21:48.380 the students

00:21:49.100 help each other.

00:21:50.280 We had a way

00:21:51.100 of developing

00:21:52.200 a level of fraternity

00:21:53.700 and still do,

00:21:54.840 you know,

00:21:55.600 where

00:21:56.020 if we're in the same class

00:21:57.780 and you're struggling,

00:21:58.920 I'm going to help you

00:21:59.740 I'm going to

00:22:01.420 the yard

00:22:02.260 and study with you

00:22:03.180 or we're going to

00:22:03.680 find the time

00:22:04.520 to make sure

00:22:05.640 that we all

00:22:06.880 get this material.

00:22:07.820 So there was a level

00:22:08.600 of camaraderie

00:22:10.460 and support

00:22:12.100 amongst the prisoners

00:22:13.060 itself

00:22:13.600 that I want to say

00:22:14.460 was actually

00:22:15.260 supported

00:22:16.320 by the BPI

00:22:17.460 administrators.

00:22:18.280 It was encouraged

00:22:19.140 by BPI

00:22:20.720 administrators

00:22:21.320 for us to take

00:22:22.500 a level of autonomy

00:22:24.120 and, you know,

00:22:25.540 self-direction

00:22:26.580 in order

00:22:27.660 to educate

00:22:28.940 ourselves

00:22:29.520 to the degree

00:22:30.060 and make the most

00:22:30.900 out of material

00:22:31.560 we were presented with.

00:22:33.140 And I just would

00:22:34.100 chime in one more thing

00:22:34.920 I've heard Joel

00:22:35.380 talk about a lot

00:22:36.160 which is,

00:22:37.140 you know,

00:22:37.840 every year

00:22:38.380 a new crop of students

00:22:39.100 are admitted

00:22:39.480 and sometimes

00:22:40.760 the students

00:22:41.580 that are already

00:22:41.940 in the program

00:22:42.340 would look at

00:22:42.700 the other students

00:22:43.200 and say,

00:22:43.520 oh,

00:22:43.640 I don't know,

00:22:44.140 you know,

00:22:44.900 I've seen that guy

00:22:45.520 in the yard

00:22:45.920 and I don't know,

00:22:47.320 you know,

00:22:47.560 is he really

00:22:48.140 going to be able

00:22:48.600 to do this

00:22:49.140 or whatever

00:22:49.600 and, you know,

00:22:50.500 people rise

00:22:51.020 to the occasion

00:22:51.840 and rise to the challenge

00:22:52.820 over and over again.

00:22:53.580 Yeah,

00:22:54.240 I was in charge

00:22:55.060 with orientating

00:22:56.620 students to the rigors

00:22:57.580 of the program

00:22:58.720 when they got in

00:23:00.560 and made that transition

00:23:01.600 from just being incarcerated

00:23:03.100 to actually being incarcerated

00:23:04.800 and taking this rigorous program

00:23:06.960 and I saw people

00:23:08.020 who were in the yard

00:23:09.000 involved in all types

00:23:10.860 of negativity

00:23:11.420 but once they got

00:23:12.220 in the program

00:23:12.860 they became

00:23:13.480 the most engaged,

00:23:15.060 articulate,

00:23:16.300 you know,

00:23:16.620 intelligent people

00:23:17.680 and you're right,

00:23:18.840 Sam,

00:23:19.200 there were people

00:23:19.940 who struggled

00:23:20.520 with the material

00:23:21.240 but again,

00:23:22.500 we were encouraged

00:23:23.480 to help each other out

00:23:25.040 and we did

00:23:26.180 and I think that is

00:23:27.000 what's spilling out

00:23:28.020 to a lot of BPI

00:23:29.500 alum now

00:23:30.420 who are home

00:23:31.240 providing solutions

00:23:32.660 to the problems

00:23:33.480 and helping people

00:23:34.360 out out here.

00:23:36.120 Hmm.

00:23:36.860 Well,

00:23:37.220 so I'm reminded

00:23:38.240 of the scene,

00:23:39.940 I guess it's the first class

00:23:41.460 where the instructor says,

00:23:44.020 as you said,

00:23:45.520 we're not considering

00:23:46.820 what you did

00:23:48.220 to get into prison

00:23:49.300 at all,

00:23:50.080 your crimes

00:23:50.740 are totally irrelevant

00:23:52.740 and, you know,

00:23:53.600 here you're just,

00:23:54.300 you're not a prisoner,

00:23:55.040 you're a student

00:23:55.520 and that was

00:23:56.720 a very powerful

00:23:57.640 kind of induction

00:23:58.860 into the curriculum

00:24:00.940 but I guess I'm just,

00:24:02.360 I'm still left

00:24:04.060 with the feeling

00:24:04.900 that there's a bit

00:24:06.460 of a selection effect here

00:24:07.940 which I would only assume

00:24:09.280 is in some way

00:24:10.460 natural

00:24:11.080 because,

00:24:12.560 I mean,

00:24:12.780 for instance,

00:24:13.260 I don't remember anyone

00:24:14.480 who you focused on,

00:24:16.300 Lynn,

00:24:16.460 in the film

00:24:17.100 whose crime

00:24:18.980 or crimes

00:24:20.160 were such

00:24:20.740 that one

00:24:22.240 would be really

00:24:22.960 worried

00:24:23.740 that this person

00:24:25.380 was ever going

00:24:26.060 to get out of prison.

00:24:27.900 I mean,

00:24:28.120 there's some people

00:24:28.580 who are just not

00:24:29.220 going to get out

00:24:29.600 of prison

00:24:29.920 because what they did

00:24:30.660 was so terrible,

00:24:32.560 right?

00:24:32.940 Well,

00:24:33.120 I was considered

00:24:33.720 one of those people,

00:24:34.600 Sam.

00:24:35.180 I, you know.

00:24:35.640 Yeah,

00:24:35.780 but like,

00:24:36.040 I mean,

00:24:36.240 I just understand

00:24:37.160 the logic

00:24:37.720 of your crime

00:24:39.860 and this is not

00:24:41.640 the kind of crime

00:24:42.780 that makes me think

00:24:43.720 you're the sort

00:24:44.740 of person 1.00

00:24:45.160 who wanted to kill

00:24:46.620 and harm people 0.92

00:24:48.060 in general.

00:24:48.720 this was a plausible

00:24:50.580 self-defense situation.

00:24:51.840 Yeah,

00:24:51.980 maybe I could jump in

00:24:53.000 and just say

00:24:53.860 that I think

00:24:54.360 the film

00:24:55.200 and the people's,

00:24:56.420 everyone's stories

00:24:56.960 provides a lot

00:24:57.600 of social context

00:24:58.480 for the environments

00:24:59.780 people came from

00:25:00.580 and the forces

00:25:01.720 that shaped them,

00:25:02.440 the traumas

00:25:02.880 and all the things

00:25:03.460 that we know

00:25:04.300 are,

00:25:05.020 you know,

00:25:05.920 end up resulting

00:25:06.780 in violence

00:25:07.300 and decisions

00:25:07.800 and the trajectories

00:25:09.720 that end up

00:25:10.180 with people

00:25:10.560 being incarcerated.

00:25:12.140 And so I think

00:25:12.720 what the program

00:25:13.480 shows

00:25:14.440 and the success

00:25:15.200 of the student

00:25:15.700 shows is that,

00:25:16.640 you know,

00:25:17.500 when you teach

00:25:17.960 in the program,

00:25:18.360 you don't know

00:25:18.940 anyone's background

00:25:19.980 either.

00:25:20.460 You're just there

00:25:20.840 as a faculty

00:25:21.340 and you don't,

00:25:21.960 you're not supposed

00:25:22.480 to and you don't

00:25:23.600 investigate

00:25:24.060 and you relate

00:25:24.560 to the students

00:25:25.060 as students.

00:25:26.360 And that's really

00:25:27.400 important philosophically

00:25:28.180 to the program.

00:25:29.420 But it also just speaks

00:25:30.480 to this larger question

00:25:31.400 that I think is,

00:25:32.900 you know,

00:25:33.280 who's to judge

00:25:34.260 who is or isn't

00:25:35.160 capable of change

00:25:36.260 and redemption.

00:25:37.680 And I think

00:25:39.220 without knowing

00:25:39.800 the full picture

00:25:40.420 of everybody's

00:25:41.040 circumstances,

00:25:42.320 it's,

00:25:42.860 you know,

00:25:43.280 it's really

00:25:44.160 a pretty tough call.

00:25:45.800 And that's not

00:25:46.660 something that

00:25:47.080 the program does

00:25:47.920 or that we

00:25:48.320 as filmmakers

00:25:48.800 did either,

00:25:49.440 actually.

00:25:50.200 And we kind

00:25:50.480 of hope the film

00:25:51.100 in a way

00:25:51.680 opens up that

00:25:52.900 conversation

00:25:53.340 for a different,

00:25:54.600 to have it

00:25:54.980 in a different way.

00:25:55.900 And I will

00:25:56.160 emphasize that,

00:25:57.120 you know,

00:25:57.380 even the people

00:25:58.000 who may have

00:25:59.040 that categorization,

00:26:01.200 I don't,

00:26:01.620 you know,

00:26:01.860 I'm not really sure,

00:26:03.360 I don't want

00:26:03.720 to label anyone,

00:26:05.280 but there's

00:26:06.020 an effect

00:26:06.640 that these

00:26:07.540 college programs

00:26:08.380 have on the

00:26:09.160 prison environment

00:26:10.000 itself

00:26:10.680 that many

00:26:11.820 officers

00:26:12.420 were supportive

00:26:13.460 of and

00:26:14.020 appreciative of,

00:26:15.460 you know,

00:26:15.800 because they

00:26:16.180 understood that

00:26:16.920 I have to

00:26:17.540 come here and

00:26:18.040 work.

00:26:18.560 As long as

00:26:19.100 I'm here

00:26:19.480 working and

00:26:20.080 these guys

00:26:20.540 are focused

00:26:20.980 on positive

00:26:21.620 things,

00:26:22.040 that's a good

00:26:22.580 thing for me

00:26:23.520 in my life

00:26:24.080 and my family.

00:26:26.000 Yeah,

00:26:26.580 so I guess

00:26:27.300 let me give you

00:26:27.960 a little more

00:26:28.480 of the motivation

00:26:29.600 for my

00:26:30.280 question here

00:26:31.680 because one

00:26:32.500 aspect of the

00:26:33.620 film that

00:26:34.200 which I

00:26:34.740 found

00:26:36.320 pretty

00:26:37.380 flabbergasting,

00:26:38.620 I mean,

00:26:38.760 I guess if I

00:26:39.340 thought about it

00:26:40.420 for a few

00:26:40.980 minutes beforehand,

00:26:41.720 I could have

00:26:42.360 anticipated it,

00:26:43.280 but it did hit

00:26:44.040 me as a real

00:26:45.660 point of surprise

00:26:46.520 which is the

00:26:47.740 resistance to

00:26:49.200 the program

00:26:49.760 and the resistance

00:26:50.400 to programs

00:26:51.220 like this

00:26:52.200 coming from

00:26:53.460 not just

00:26:54.560 society

00:26:55.860 at large,

00:26:57.440 but as you

00:26:58.040 say,

00:26:58.260 from the guards

00:26:59.400 whose jobs

00:27:00.800 you can

00:27:02.140 anticipate

00:27:02.700 would be

00:27:03.220 getting easier

00:27:04.480 the more people

00:27:05.440 in prison

00:27:06.840 are getting

00:27:07.200 educated

00:27:07.780 and having

00:27:09.140 their

00:27:09.460 a more

00:27:10.540 fulfilling

00:27:10.880 experience.

00:27:12.140 The case

00:27:12.640 that really

00:27:13.240 just was

00:27:14.200 jaw-dropping

00:27:14.760 for me,

00:27:15.640 even one

00:27:16.260 of the

00:27:16.800 students

00:27:17.820 in the

00:27:18.720 program,

00:27:19.460 her own

00:27:19.860 mother,

00:27:21.120 resented

00:27:21.660 the fact

00:27:23.060 that she

00:27:23.320 was getting

00:27:23.700 a free

00:27:24.160 education

00:27:24.740 in prison,

00:27:26.240 right?

00:27:26.460 And so

00:27:26.600 maybe you

00:27:27.420 can,

00:27:27.740 both of you,

00:27:28.420 just kind

00:27:28.680 of talk

00:27:29.160 us through

00:27:30.200 the logic

00:27:30.800 by which

00:27:31.360 people would

00:27:32.200 resent the

00:27:33.680 fact that

00:27:34.300 prisoners

00:27:35.020 are being

00:27:36.020 exposed to

00:27:36.900 great books

00:27:38.000 and of

00:27:39.060 a path

00:27:39.620 of self-actualization

00:27:41.360 through education

00:27:42.240 and also

00:27:43.460 just why

00:27:44.200 the guards

00:27:45.980 didn't

00:27:47.920 figure

00:27:49.020 prominently

00:27:49.780 in the

00:27:50.760 film.

00:27:51.140 Because if

00:27:51.640 I'm not

00:27:51.940 mistaken,

00:27:52.360 the guards

00:27:52.720 are kind

00:27:53.120 of mostly

00:27:54.180 absent or

00:27:54.640 entirely

00:27:55.080 absent in

00:27:55.980 the film

00:27:57.080 in terms

00:27:57.380 of their

00:27:57.800 testimony

00:27:58.840 as to

00:27:59.400 how this

00:27:59.940 affects

00:28:00.240 prison life.

00:28:00.760 I can

00:28:01.200 speak a little

00:28:01.560 bit about

00:28:01.780 the officers

00:28:02.280 which was

00:28:02.840 that the

00:28:03.280 officers

00:28:03.680 union,

00:28:04.800 we asked

00:28:05.700 repeatedly

00:28:06.100 for could

00:28:07.080 we interview

00:28:07.480 some officers

00:28:08.020 and they

00:28:08.380 never responded.

00:28:09.640 So we

00:28:09.900 actually don't

00:28:10.400 represent what

00:28:11.040 the officers

00:28:11.460 think or

00:28:11.980 don't think

00:28:12.560 and so we

00:28:13.740 actually don't

00:28:14.160 know.

00:28:14.440 We heard

00:28:14.720 occasionally

00:28:15.440 when we

00:28:15.940 were filming

00:28:16.640 Sarah and

00:28:17.060 I would

00:28:17.300 talk to

00:28:17.740 officers

00:28:18.040 who were

00:28:18.320 hanging out

00:28:18.600 with us

00:28:18.940 but we

00:28:19.840 have nothing

00:28:20.120 on the

00:28:20.360 record from

00:28:20.760 them.

00:28:21.600 So we

00:28:21.920 only have

00:28:22.320 the

00:28:22.520 commissioner

00:28:23.080 of the

00:28:23.940 state of

00:28:24.740 New York

00:28:24.960 commissioner

00:28:25.360 of corrections

00:28:25.860 saying that

00:28:26.500 yes it's

00:28:27.420 true that

00:28:27.940 there can't

00:28:30.200 be tension

00:28:30.580 because the

00:28:31.080 officers

00:28:31.440 often don't

00:28:32.440 have a

00:28:32.700 college

00:28:32.860 education

00:28:33.260 themselves.

00:28:34.220 And I

00:28:34.440 think we

00:28:34.760 take a

00:28:35.100 position

00:28:35.440 that

00:28:35.820 officers

00:28:36.560 should

00:28:36.920 have

00:28:37.160 access

00:28:37.500 to

00:28:37.720 education

00:28:38.180 we're

00:28:38.480 not

00:28:38.820 trying

00:28:39.780 to

00:28:40.040 create

00:28:40.300 a

00:28:40.420 dichotomy

00:28:40.920 and

00:28:41.340 Sam you bring

00:28:42.900 up a good

00:28:43.280 point with

00:28:44.020 Tamika's 0.89

00:28:45.060 mother because

00:28:46.000 it's important

00:28:46.560 to recognize

00:28:47.160 that people

00:28:47.580 who are

00:28:47.940 against

00:28:48.440 or have

00:28:49.400 information

00:28:50.060 that makes

00:28:51.040 them take

00:28:51.420 a position

00:28:51.980 that's

00:28:52.320 against

00:28:52.760 this

00:28:53.500 program

00:28:54.100 are

00:28:54.660 generally

00:28:55.140 the same

00:28:55.580 population

00:28:56.120 of people

00:28:56.680 you know

00:28:57.520 mostly lower

00:28:58.640 class people

00:28:59.400 of color

00:28:59.900 you know of

00:29:00.740 course some

00:29:01.140 lower class

00:29:01.660 white people

00:29:02.180 there as

00:29:02.580 well so I

00:29:03.780 think it's

00:29:04.120 important and I

00:29:04.760 love your show

00:29:05.340 Sam for this

00:29:06.020 reason as well

00:29:06.760 because it's

00:29:07.440 important to

00:29:07.980 understand how

00:29:08.560 politics come

00:29:10.060 in and kind

00:29:11.080 of distort and

00:29:12.360 allow people to

00:29:13.380 take positions

00:29:14.140 that's not

00:29:14.720 necessarily in

00:29:15.620 their interest

00:29:16.220 you know

00:29:17.080 we take the

00:29:19.280 position with

00:29:19.900 this film that

00:29:20.900 college education

00:29:23.160 should be

00:29:23.700 accessible to

00:29:24.660 everyone in

00:29:25.460 America who

00:29:26.160 wants it

00:29:26.960 not necessarily

00:29:28.180 about you

00:29:29.020 know the

00:29:29.400 crime your

00:29:30.080 job your

00:29:30.700 economic

00:29:31.160 status we

00:29:32.260 see the

00:29:33.340 not only

00:29:34.260 personal

00:29:35.020 development

00:29:35.700 potential but

00:29:36.440 also civic

00:29:37.200 responsibility

00:29:37.940 that many

00:29:39.840 of these

00:29:40.420 like you

00:29:41.000 just refer to

00:29:41.780 the humanities

00:29:42.560 and engage

00:29:43.900 with sociology

00:29:44.780 installs in a

00:29:46.380 person so you

00:29:47.720 know to answer

00:29:48.400 your question a

00:29:49.020 bit more

00:29:49.320 directly yes

00:29:50.260 there are

00:29:50.700 people like

00:29:51.900 Tamika's mother

00:29:52.620 who were or

00:29:54.380 are against this

00:29:55.440 program but I

00:29:56.380 will say two

00:29:56.880 things about

00:29:57.480 that one

00:29:58.240 even Tamika's

00:29:59.600 mother when she

00:30:00.600 had more

00:30:01.200 information she

00:30:02.260 realized the

00:30:03.140 benefit of this

00:30:04.280 program and

00:30:05.440 two the second

00:30:06.720 thing I'll say

00:30:07.420 is that you

00:30:08.660 know college

00:30:09.200 access is a

00:30:10.780 problem beyond

00:30:12.340 prison and we

00:30:13.660 should not I

00:30:15.020 like to look at

00:30:15.760 this film as

00:30:16.440 showing the

00:30:17.000 potential of

00:30:17.700 education overall

00:30:19.020 and it just so

00:30:20.420 happens that it's

00:30:21.200 in a prison

00:30:21.780 environment and

00:30:23.140 we shouldn't

00:30:23.540 overlook that you

00:30:24.500 know because

00:30:25.260 I think education

00:30:27.340 can be something

00:30:28.980 that you know

00:30:29.700 makes America

00:30:30.760 great again you

00:30:31.860 know yeah

00:30:33.240 someone who's

00:30:35.620 probably not a

00:30:36.160 friend of the

00:30:36.500 program well

00:30:37.640 interestingly enough

00:30:38.500 yeah you know

00:30:39.160 the Obama

00:30:39.660 administration

00:30:40.200 started in a

00:30:42.100 small way to

00:30:42.740 have this second

00:30:43.300 chance Pell

00:30:43.900 pilot program

00:30:44.780 and the Trump

00:30:45.540 administration has

00:30:46.240 continued it and

00:30:46.900 expanded it and

00:30:47.860 secretary of

00:30:48.360 education Betsy

00:30:48.980 DeVos is in

00:30:49.620 favor of Pell

00:30:50.480 grant restoration

00:30:51.200 for people

00:30:51.820 incarcerated so

00:30:52.620 this sort of

00:30:53.880 interesting no

00:30:54.940 well it's

00:30:55.600 unexpected in

00:30:57.440 the universe of

00:30:58.520 politics that

00:30:58.960 we're dealing

00:30:59.300 with and the

00:31:00.240 other thing I

00:31:00.760 would just say

00:31:01.200 because this is

00:31:01.740 such an important

00:31:02.280 point so thank

00:31:02.860 you for bringing

00:31:03.260 it up is that

00:31:03.980 we have seen the

00:31:05.400 politics shift over

00:31:06.780 the time that Sarah

00:31:07.340 and I were working

00:31:07.760 on the film so

00:31:08.380 when we first

00:31:08.840 started we have

00:31:10.340 we felt a lot

00:31:11.120 more of the

00:31:11.760 resentment and

00:31:12.440 kind of the

00:31:13.100 the I would say

00:31:14.740 that the political

00:31:16.040 argument that you

00:31:16.720 hear to me

00:31:18.280 because mom making

00:31:18.800 was more prevalent

00:31:19.520 and over time

00:31:20.900 up to today we

00:31:22.500 feel we've heard

00:31:23.520 and we see

00:31:23.940 that it is

00:31:24.560 shifting quite

00:31:25.120 a bit and

00:31:26.380 for the reasons

00:31:27.180 Jewel said and

00:31:27.780 also just because

00:31:28.440 of how much

00:31:28.780 money we're

00:31:29.140 spending on

00:31:29.620 mass incarceration

00:31:30.360 when you spend

00:31:32.160 money on education

00:31:33.220 it saves money

00:31:33.960 in the long run

00:31:34.600 to a significant

00:31:35.560 degree

00:31:36.140 one to four

00:31:36.980 right so you

00:31:38.980 know it isn't

00:31:39.740 really about

00:31:40.160 saving taxpayer

00:31:40.860 dollars at all

00:31:42.020 it's actually about

00:31:43.160 denying opportunity

00:31:44.280 and access to

00:31:45.600 education primarily

00:31:47.020 to communities of

00:31:47.920 color in America

00:31:48.560 I mean that's the

00:31:49.340 subtext that's

00:31:50.060 kind of not made

00:31:51.200 explicit but is

00:31:52.040 there even with

00:31:53.700 someone like

00:31:54.640 Tamika's mom sort

00:31:55.980 of you know hearing

00:31:56.800 the rhetoric and

00:31:57.720 expressing it but

00:31:58.920 it has largely to

00:31:59.980 do with the

00:32:00.280 resentment of the

00:32:01.600 high cost of

00:32:02.020 education and

00:32:03.300 also you know

00:32:04.580 frustration with her

00:32:05.920 daughter being

00:32:06.380 incarcerated and

00:32:07.820 the suffering that

00:32:08.720 their family has

00:32:09.240 gone through to

00:32:09.960 endure that

00:32:10.580 and I think one of

00:32:11.240 the things that's

00:32:11.820 very instructive

00:32:12.820 about Tamika's

00:32:13.580 mother she also

00:32:14.240 has a daughter

00:32:14.760 that's a correction

00:32:15.480 officer right so

00:32:16.740 you know these are

00:32:17.520 the same populations

00:32:18.460 of people that

00:32:19.180 we're talking about

00:32:20.040 you know so I

00:32:21.280 definitely like to

00:32:22.420 you know keep that

00:32:23.740 in mind once we

00:32:24.680 get into the

00:32:25.380 distinctions and

00:32:27.100 arguments made for

00:32:28.340 or against but I

00:32:29.440 honestly feel that

00:32:30.600 anyone who sees

00:32:31.360 this film they're

00:32:32.320 going to be for

00:32:32.940 something like this

00:32:34.240 in prison for

00:32:35.380 people who are

00:32:36.160 incarcerated

00:32:36.700 yeah well there's

00:32:38.460 no question of

00:32:39.180 that I mean it's

00:32:39.960 even to the point

00:32:40.920 where you just

00:32:41.480 can't imagine

00:32:42.420 anyone having a

00:32:44.440 different reaction

00:32:45.260 to it it's just

00:32:46.260 it's so obviously

00:32:48.000 good and as you

00:32:51.020 said Jewel the

00:32:52.060 economics also

00:32:53.640 work out I think

00:32:54.800 if I'm not

00:32:55.260 mistaken there was

00:32:55.760 a RAND study

00:32:56.780 which said that

00:32:57.500 for every dollar

00:32:59.440 spent in prison

00:33:01.360 on education

00:33:02.160 you're saving

00:33:03.420 five you know

00:33:04.620 out of prison

00:33:05.280 I believe that

00:33:06.520 was the math

00:33:07.460 and so the last

00:33:08.940 time this failed

00:33:09.700 that what was it

00:33:10.400 I think it was in

00:33:10.960 2014 that Andrew

00:33:12.100 Cuomo tried

00:33:13.580 to pass a law

00:33:15.580 in this area

00:33:16.260 and then he got

00:33:16.980 so much pushback

00:33:17.940 that he just

00:33:18.940 withdrew the

00:33:20.180 initiative I think

00:33:21.600 that's correct

00:33:22.720 it was a trial

00:33:24.120 balloon and he

00:33:24.780 didn't really

00:33:25.340 put much force

00:33:26.560 behind it after

00:33:27.440 making the proposal

00:33:28.200 I think he was

00:33:28.760 surprised by the

00:33:29.420 reaction

00:33:29.820 and again I

00:33:30.680 think we should

00:33:31.180 take heed to the

00:33:32.240 politics involved

00:33:33.400 because this isn't

00:33:35.160 a new thing

00:33:35.820 college has been

00:33:37.040 a way through

00:33:38.460 which people are

00:33:39.680 prepared to be

00:33:41.240 released from

00:33:42.400 prison to be

00:33:43.860 productive members

00:33:44.540 of society

00:33:45.140 we could go back

00:33:46.380 to the 80s

00:33:47.280 where you know

00:33:48.360 it was known

00:33:49.140 that these programs

00:33:50.400 were on a benefit

00:33:52.260 for society

00:33:53.020 because I actually

00:33:53.820 believe as long

00:33:54.980 as you provide a

00:33:56.160 person in prison

00:33:57.000 with the quality

00:33:58.680 of education

00:33:59.500 once that person

00:34:00.780 released that's not

00:34:01.840 an individual gain

00:34:02.800 that's a societal

00:34:03.680 gain just like

00:34:05.020 education will

00:34:06.280 benefit an

00:34:06.840 individual to go

00:34:08.380 into society and

00:34:09.480 make society better

00:34:10.440 it has no

00:34:11.140 difference for a

00:34:12.680 person who's

00:34:13.320 incarcerated

00:34:13.860 yeah yeah

00:34:15.760 well so Jewel

00:34:16.960 back to your

00:34:17.680 experience here

00:34:19.640 so when you

00:34:21.260 joined the

00:34:21.900 program how

00:34:22.840 did it change

00:34:24.860 your sense

00:34:25.760 I mean you

00:34:26.720 could speak

00:34:27.040 personally or

00:34:28.280 I guess you

00:34:28.860 can also speak

00:34:29.480 for some of

00:34:29.980 your fellow

00:34:30.600 alums in the

00:34:32.200 program how

00:34:32.740 did it change

00:34:33.340 your sense of

00:34:34.160 being in

00:34:35.680 prison and

00:34:36.500 your relationship

00:34:37.580 to the time

00:34:39.260 that was yet

00:34:40.240 ahead for you

00:34:40.820 to serve

00:34:41.360 it changed it

00:34:42.760 radically

00:34:43.400 you know

00:34:44.620 what you just

00:34:45.960 quoted I

00:34:46.540 thought was I

00:34:47.240 think it's my

00:34:47.820 quote is somebody

00:34:48.460 saying what I

00:34:49.560 said but this is

00:34:50.760 what I usually

00:34:51.280 speak about I

00:34:52.380 remember the

00:34:52.920 first orientation

00:34:53.940 I partook in

00:34:54.900 when I got

00:34:56.300 into BPI and

00:34:57.720 one of the

00:34:58.520 administrators

00:34:59.060 Daniel Karpowitz

00:35:00.060 made a statement

00:35:01.520 he told us from

00:35:02.360 now on you should

00:35:03.120 no longer look at

00:35:03.860 yourself as a

00:35:04.980 person incarcerated

00:35:06.100 in the prison you

00:35:06.980 should look at

00:35:07.440 yourself as a

00:35:08.140 student who's part

00:35:09.060 of a bigger

00:35:09.520 institution that

00:35:10.540 is barred and

00:35:12.340 that was so

00:35:13.640 uncomfortable for

00:35:14.700 me because I

00:35:15.480 had spent maybe

00:35:16.380 11 years in

00:35:17.340 prison being told

00:35:18.740 I was an inmate

00:35:19.640 and not only being

00:35:21.140 told believing that

00:35:23.120 I needed to stay

00:35:24.540 in a lane that

00:35:26.040 was an inmate to

00:35:27.060 survive but being

00:35:28.700 in bar college

00:35:29.600 changed my whole

00:35:30.560 identity of myself

00:35:31.720 and I think that

00:35:32.540 is important for

00:35:33.280 one reason if none

00:35:34.400 other there's many

00:35:35.260 that it put me in

00:35:36.760 a mind state to

00:35:38.200 understand what

00:35:39.660 re-entry or how

00:35:41.580 re-entry starts in

00:35:42.900 prison I needed to

00:35:44.300 get out of the

00:35:44.820 mind state of

00:35:45.440 looking at myself

00:35:46.040 as an inmate if I

00:35:46.860 was going to be

00:35:47.400 successful when I'm

00:35:48.620 released I needed to

00:35:49.540 start that process as

00:35:50.680 early as possible

00:35:52.260 but nonetheless

00:35:53.220 when people get

00:35:55.240 into bar my

00:35:56.240 experience is that

00:35:57.340 the a couple of

00:35:58.980 qualities that the

00:36:00.920 program had that

00:36:02.480 put us in a

00:36:03.140 position to be

00:36:05.740 successful was one

00:36:06.860 the responsibility

00:36:08.180 was on us not

00:36:09.380 many people in

00:36:10.180 prison give people

00:36:11.220 the responsibility

00:36:11.940 for their own

00:36:13.060 development you know

00:36:14.580 and I think that's

00:36:15.280 really instructive

00:36:16.260 because once a

00:36:17.080 person is given

00:36:17.800 that responsibility

00:36:18.520 you'll see what

00:36:19.900 you see in the

00:36:20.520 film a lot of us

00:36:21.560 engaging with our

00:36:23.280 past and using the

00:36:24.940 education to kind

00:36:26.260 of like situate

00:36:27.500 ourselves and

00:36:28.040 understand how we

00:36:29.320 got into the

00:36:29.900 positions we were

00:36:30.720 in I think that's

00:36:32.020 the path of you

00:36:33.120 know change

00:36:33.740 transformation

00:36:34.440 two we were forced

00:36:37.360 to give up our

00:36:38.260 values in prison you

00:36:40.040 know in prison there's

00:36:41.180 norms and values that

00:36:42.620 people take on oh I

00:36:44.020 don't want to mess

00:36:44.480 with this guy because

00:36:45.340 of his crime or I

00:36:46.260 don't want to mess

00:36:46.680 with this guy because

00:36:47.480 it is but again

00:36:48.700 Bart put us in a

00:36:49.880 position to say none

00:36:51.100 of that matters only

00:36:51.980 thing that matters is

00:36:53.240 if you understand this

00:36:54.560 material are you

00:36:55.640 putting your best foot

00:36:56.680 forward and are you

00:36:57.900 relying on other

00:36:58.780 people in your cohort

00:37:00.100 to do so so it

00:37:02.100 built a fraternity

00:37:03.260 where in prison you're

00:37:05.180 if you're not in a

00:37:06.600 gang you're highly

00:37:07.520 individual so this

00:37:10.060 program also put us

00:37:11.460 in a position to say

00:37:12.240 you know we need to

00:37:12.900 rely on each other so

00:37:14.500 those are just a

00:37:15.180 couple of the things

00:37:16.040 that I would love to

00:37:18.320 have a discussion

00:37:19.000 about how many

00:37:20.700 Bart alum are out

00:37:21.820 here now manifesting

00:37:23.740 those same qualities

00:37:24.940 in the work they're

00:37:25.920 doing because there's

00:37:27.180 the fraternity there's

00:37:28.380 the understanding of

00:37:29.960 self and environment

00:37:30.900 and how to use these

00:37:33.320 critical thinking

00:37:34.240 skills we learned in

00:37:35.340 in the program out

00:37:37.600 here for real life

00:37:38.840 situations yeah that

00:37:41.020 comes through so

00:37:42.480 vividly in the film

00:37:44.280 just the sense that

00:37:45.780 you're forming you

00:37:47.900 and you and the rest

00:37:49.100 of the people in the

00:37:50.160 program are forming

00:37:51.340 with one another of

00:37:53.480 fraternity and support

00:37:55.120 in the classroom which

00:37:56.620 just seems like it is

00:37:58.340 clearly functioning by a

00:37:59.880 different dynamic than

00:38:01.140 what is ordinarily going

00:38:03.400 on in a prison and

00:38:05.400 then the connection

00:38:08.180 that's being made to the

00:38:10.440 outside world and to

00:38:11.900 in virtually everybody's

00:38:14.060 case a future life

00:38:16.360 in society based on

00:38:19.060 the the material that

00:38:20.620 is being you know

00:38:21.660 worked with and just

00:38:23.120 some of the most

00:38:24.620 arresting shots

00:38:25.640 Lynn were just

00:38:27.020 occasionally you would

00:38:28.220 you would linger on

00:38:29.140 somebody's stack of

00:38:30.660 books or their

00:38:31.360 bookshelf and to just

00:38:32.660 to see the most

00:38:34.760 viewers will be

00:38:35.320 familiar with some of

00:38:36.020 the books there and

00:38:36.680 certainly the topics of

00:38:37.940 the non-fiction books

00:38:39.560 and to just see what

00:38:40.740 a lifeline this

00:38:42.720 material is for

00:38:44.220 people I don't know

00:38:45.540 I mean the effect

00:38:46.840 what it was like it

00:38:47.420 was like just a an

00:38:48.840 unusually powerful

00:38:49.760 meditation on the

00:38:52.320 profundity of what

00:38:55.040 education is for a

00:38:56.520 civilization and the

00:38:58.420 profundity of the

00:38:59.420 the missed opportunity

00:39:00.980 for many of these

00:39:02.040 people to have gotten

00:39:03.080 it earlier in life

00:39:04.660 you're basically seeing

00:39:06.020 people who have been

00:39:06.860 dying of thirst given

00:39:08.440 a cold drink of

00:39:09.780 water really just a

00:39:12.220 very powerful

00:39:12.940 experience that you've

00:39:13.880 created thank you for

00:39:15.380 saying that I and

00:39:16.780 thank you for looking

00:39:17.380 at the books because

00:39:18.260 we love seeing what

00:39:19.440 people are reading and

00:39:20.420 you just you can see a

00:39:21.260 lot I know my bookshelf

00:39:22.220 at home says a lot

00:39:23.360 about me what books I

00:39:24.500 chose and what books I

00:39:25.340 care about and save and

00:39:26.920 seeing the books that

00:39:27.740 the students have in

00:39:28.460 their cells or in the

00:39:29.300 library that are on the

00:39:30.120 table you know reflects

00:39:31.800 where they're at and

00:39:32.840 what they're thinking

00:39:33.580 about and that's you

00:39:34.540 know insight into what's

00:39:36.180 going on inside is so

00:39:37.420 so powerful and the

00:39:39.300 tall drink of water is

00:39:40.280 exactly right one of

00:39:41.060 the students at one

00:39:41.640 point says literally

00:39:43.200 it's like you're in

00:39:44.000 the desert and you get

00:39:44.860 into BPI and you found

00:39:45.860 an oasis and the books

00:39:47.660 play a role because you

00:39:49.100 know I engage with

00:39:50.940 Friedrich Nietzsche

00:39:52.040 Thomas Mann another one

00:39:54.820 of my favorites is

00:39:55.580 Walter Mosley and I

00:39:57.180 didn't just engage it

00:39:58.220 by myself I engaged it

00:40:00.480 with my classmates there's

00:40:01.820 that level of

00:40:03.320 interaction with each

00:40:04.340 other so I'm not only

00:40:05.580 getting my impression of

00:40:07.520 Friedrich Nietzsche but

00:40:08.980 everyone else is in that

00:40:10.260 class in my class I'm

00:40:12.480 getting their impression

00:40:13.280 as well and I think that

00:40:14.440 is just like I know for

00:40:15.720 me it was like magical

00:40:16.860 it's like wow it's opening

00:40:18.860 my mind to so much you

00:40:20.560 know I think there is

00:40:21.540 something we find Sarah

00:40:23.040 and I find in the

00:40:23.700 collaborative process of

00:40:24.580 making the film with our

00:40:25.500 cinematographers and our

00:40:26.300 editor Trisha Reedy you

00:40:27.940 know when you're really in

00:40:29.080 the in that I've heard you

00:40:30.240 speak about it this idea of

00:40:31.280 flow and I'm not sure I've

00:40:32.640 ever really experienced it

00:40:33.620 but you know there's

00:40:34.860 something euphoric about

00:40:36.000 this you know pure

00:40:37.120 intellectual or creative

00:40:38.580 collaboration with other

00:40:39.620 people where you do

00:40:40.800 something more than you

00:40:41.500 could do on your own and

00:40:42.980 you sort of you're almost

00:40:44.080 outside of yourself and we

00:40:45.600 felt that sometimes when

00:40:46.980 making the film and I can

00:40:47.940 see from what Jewel is

00:40:48.700 saying I think that's the

00:40:49.560 same thing that happens

00:40:50.940 among the students when

00:40:51.760 they're really deeply

00:40:52.920 digging into the material

00:40:54.080 and what's the experience

00:40:56.140 for the instructors in

00:40:58.500 general did you I mean it

00:41:00.680 comes through you can you

00:41:01.960 see them in action a lot

00:41:03.040 but I'm wondering what

00:41:04.760 your your sidebar

00:41:05.800 conversations are like

00:41:06.840 with instructors yeah you

00:41:08.580 know when we started off

00:41:09.480 Sarah and I did think we

00:41:10.260 were going to focus a bit

00:41:11.060 more on the professors

00:41:12.000 because we were really

00:41:12.860 interested in what their

00:41:13.560 experiences were but we

00:41:14.560 ended up realizing the

00:41:15.400 students were really going

00:41:16.160 to be the focus but um

00:41:17.760 Craig Wilder you had

00:41:18.760 you had something like

00:41:19.780 400 hours of right

00:41:21.420 yes exactly there was a

00:41:25.120 lot on the cutting room

00:41:25.860 floor and one of the

00:41:26.460 things were some of the

00:41:27.060 professors and extended

00:41:28.360 interviews about why they

00:41:29.660 teach in the program and

00:41:30.400 what they find so joyous

00:41:32.120 and fulfilling but and

00:41:33.420 it's not just this

00:41:34.020 program any other

00:41:34.920 professor I've ever met

00:41:35.740 who's taught in a prison

00:41:36.980 will say that these are

00:41:38.320 the most engaged serious

00:41:40.180 thoughtful students and

00:41:41.900 some of the smartest and

00:41:42.780 most capable students who

00:41:43.960 work the hardest and so

00:41:45.520 you walk into those

00:41:46.260 classrooms and it's the

00:41:47.660 most fulfilling academic

00:41:49.020 experience they have so

00:41:50.780 professors who teach at

00:41:51.840 MIT or on the Bard campus

00:41:53.440 or at Columbia find that

00:41:55.120 you know teaching the

00:41:56.040 students in BPI invigorates

00:41:58.440 their love of teaching

00:41:59.740 their relationship to the

00:42:01.200 material and they bring

00:42:02.140 that back to their

00:42:02.740 classrooms back on the

00:42:04.240 main campuses where they

00:42:05.440 teach and everything kind

00:42:06.380 of gets elevated and you

00:42:08.400 know you just feel it it's

00:42:10.200 palpable actually in the

00:42:12.220 way that they sort of walk

00:42:14.740 into the classroom and are

00:42:15.900 there totally present for the

00:42:17.180 students and everyone is

00:42:18.660 fully present which I think

00:42:19.660 is also really interesting

00:42:20.760 you know because they go

00:42:22.980 back to this old-fashioned

00:42:23.800 teaching style of a black

00:42:24.780 board and chalk and

00:42:25.980 everybody is paying

00:42:26.720 attention and you're

00:42:27.480 looking at books and

00:42:28.820 pieces of paper there's no

00:42:30.400 screens and so there's

00:42:31.860 sort of a tactile physical

00:42:33.340 relationship to learning

00:42:34.560 also which you know it's

00:42:36.760 just everyone's focused and

00:42:38.400 and and involved it's

00:42:41.020 amazing to see the challenge

00:42:42.820 for the students to carve

00:42:45.680 out the time to actually

00:42:47.360 just do the coursework many

00:42:50.100 of them are staying up very

00:42:52.480 late at night because the

00:42:53.540 only time where it's quiet

00:42:55.200 enough to to actually read

00:42:56.960 maybe Jewel you can speak

00:42:58.240 to what that was like

00:42:59.960 yeah you know again you

00:43:02.240 know the professors didn't

00:43:03.700 let up on us I would argue

00:43:04.940 they were a little bit

00:43:05.520 harder I think they would

00:43:06.640 say that too but um yeah

00:43:09.580 and you know I like a great

00:43:11.720 example is the senior

00:43:12.720 project when I wrote my

00:43:14.440 senior project I finished

00:43:16.460 with 124 page exposition on

00:43:19.560 the guest worker program in

00:43:21.400 Germany and reading and

00:43:24.040 writing the project I

00:43:25.300 remember there were points

00:43:27.260 where I was just looking at

00:43:28.820 the paper and crying telling

00:43:31.100 myself I can't do this this

00:43:33.760 is too hard you know it's a

00:43:36.500 challenging thing but people

00:43:38.760 around me were supportive to

00:43:40.420 a degree you know because

00:43:41.820 they understood what I was up

00:43:43.120 against of course you had the

00:43:44.820 noise and you know I had to

00:43:47.180 put myself in situations not to

00:43:50.160 be distracted I had to like

00:43:51.680 wait to certain times when I

00:43:53.060 knew people weren't in the

00:43:54.460 cell block you know so it

00:43:56.100 could be quiet and I could

00:43:57.100 focus but nonetheless you

00:43:59.140 know I think that is also

00:44:00.600 quality of education because

00:44:03.060 it takes that level of

00:44:04.140 innovation and structured time

00:44:06.140 and being able to say this is

00:44:08.880 the best time for me to get

00:44:10.160 the best results I think that

00:44:11.740 is all part of the

00:44:12.760 educational process and it's

00:44:14.640 no I would argue it's not easy

00:44:16.860 in prison maybe even a little

00:44:18.100 harder I don't want to you

00:44:19.780 know I think now that I'm

00:44:21.120 home I see the challenges

00:44:22.540 that students out here face

00:44:24.640 trying to stay focused on

00:44:25.720 school so I'm not trying to

00:44:27.140 elevate one over the other I

00:44:28.620 just think that as a general

00:44:30.980 matter it's part of the

00:44:32.820 educational process in spite of

00:44:34.740 the distractions to be able to

00:44:36.740 say okay this is how I need to

00:44:38.400 structure my time in order to

00:44:40.060 get this material done yeah and

00:44:43.320 this is one of the through lines

00:44:45.720 in the film is the adventures of

00:44:49.440 the debate club which is you know

00:44:51.680 a subset of the the students

00:44:53.080 here but they debate I think was

00:44:56.020 it West Point first yes we saw

00:44:58.760 them practicing for University of

00:45:00.020 Vermont we didn't film the actual

00:45:01.800 debate and then we filmed them

00:45:03.240 against West Point and then and

00:45:06.400 then Harvard yeah and I guess we

00:45:08.220 don't want to spoil the the effect

00:45:12.060 but I mean it's just amazing that

00:45:13.860 that's the level at which this is

00:45:15.980 culminating right you have the the

00:45:18.740 barred prison team against West

00:45:21.980 Point in in one scene and Harvard in

00:45:24.800 another and these are completely

00:45:27.700 appropriate pairings it's magical and

00:45:31.280 yet there's a lot that has to change

00:45:34.560 to spread the magic what how hopeful

00:45:37.180 are you Lynn that this is going to go

00:45:39.640 in the right direction in a time frame

00:45:41.480 that is it all satisfying

00:45:43.220 Wow well I guess I I have to live in

00:45:46.800 a way that I and just to get through

00:45:48.740 life I am hopeful just generally I try

00:45:50.580 to be hopeful even though I think

00:45:52.140 right now we're living in a pretty

00:45:53.180 dark time sometimes I feel very

00:45:55.000 despairing but on this particular

00:45:56.680 issue I feel actually very hopeful

00:45:58.760 because we are in a moment where

00:46:02.080 Congress is in fact considering

00:46:04.200 legislation to restore Pell eligibility

00:46:05.820 for people incarcerated so that is

00:46:07.920 quite something and then the question

00:46:10.100 will be sort of are there any

00:46:11.440 limitations in terms of restricting

00:46:13.720 it to certain kind of offenses or

00:46:15.200 other kind of offenses or certain

00:46:16.760 sentences and then on another level

00:46:19.020 just also will we hold organizations

00:46:22.340 and educational institutions

00:46:23.560 accountable to provide education to

00:46:26.600 people who are incarcerated that is

00:46:27.900 rigorous and demanding and doesn't

00:46:30.180 condescend to them and does you know

00:46:32.520 what bar does or any other similar

00:46:34.660 program on the outside that people

00:46:36.820 deserve the opportunity so those are

00:46:38.920 things that are real and you know

00:46:40.420 scaling up as they say from a very

00:46:43.180 tiny percentage of people right now

00:46:44.380 who are incarcerated who have access

00:46:45.660 to quality degree granting programs to

00:46:48.860 the two million people that are

00:46:50.100 incarcerated that that's a big climb

00:46:51.760 but it's certainly within our reach to

00:46:53.920 both decrease the prison population

00:46:55.800 which we are doing and need to do much

00:46:57.780 more aggressively and also expand these

00:47:00.000 programs you know on a huge scale and

00:47:02.900 I am I am optimistic and we're really

00:47:05.540 excited that the film is coming out

00:47:07.060 right now for that reason I'm very

00:47:09.280 optimistic too if I may add because you

00:47:11.640 know I was incarcerated in 93 94 when

00:47:14.100 the talk was just super predator lock them

00:47:17.060 up throw away the key and we are changing

00:47:19.560 the narrative I see the film and its role

00:47:22.700 in changing this narrative Sam you cited

00:47:25.300 the way with in which people are in

00:47:27.060 opposition to this program and I think

00:47:29.320 this is helping them to see a different

00:47:32.060 narrative about what prisoners are trying

00:47:34.960 to achieve while they're inside and what

00:47:36.840 they are capable of doing and because of

00:47:39.280 that I'm so hopeful so Julie you at one

00:47:42.500 point you mentioned the other alums and

00:47:45.340 what they're doing what what is people

00:47:48.220 will go and see this film and fall in

00:47:51.340 love with several people who are who are

00:47:53.340 making their way through the program and

00:47:55.520 there's some follow-up but you know

00:47:57.520 obviously that the film was in the can

00:48:00.440 earlier than than this moment what can

00:48:03.120 you say about what people are doing and

00:48:06.040 just what it's like to get out of prison

00:48:08.920 having gone through BPI well I'll take

00:48:12.300 the last part first getting out of prison

00:48:14.980 after going through BPI was a piece of

00:48:19.780 cake in a sense that I felt because I did

00:48:24.380 that senior project there was nothing that

00:48:26.820 I couldn't do now that doesn't mean that I

00:48:28.920 wasn't faced with the stigma of being

00:48:31.800 incarcerated whenever I went on a job

00:48:33.800 interview but I had the level of

00:48:35.540 confidence and as well as I could

00:48:38.540 articulate myself in a job interview to

00:48:40.800 continue and push and push and that was a

00:48:43.440 trait that I learned from BPI and another

00:48:46.980 fact that like I mentioned earlier in the

00:48:48.880 interview or in the podcast are the

00:48:51.080 fraternity we have we have an informal

00:48:53.480 network of BPI students in the New York

00:48:56.360 area not just in the New York area we have

00:48:58.460 people in overseas in Jamaica we have

00:49:01.580 people are down south that are doing some

00:49:05.060 very important things they are actually

00:49:08.320 engaged with their communities whether

00:49:11.000 through nonprofit organizations like New

00:49:13.860 York we have so many people in the bail

00:49:16.760 reform space and philanthropic space and you

00:49:20.580 know working to educate people or youth at

00:49:23.920 risk you know that are BPI alum but we also

00:49:27.560 have people who are making that leap into the

00:49:31.020 medical institution or getting their PhDs you

00:49:34.860 know so you know I just like to bring

00:49:36.820 attention to the fact that you know we

00:49:39.040 recognize that you know we have had in the

00:49:43.300 past our past selves we have caused harm in

00:49:46.880 society but now it's like a conscious drop

00:49:50.920 driven effort to bring solutions to society we

00:49:54.260 have people all over in many sectors that are

00:49:58.060 doing so many constructive things that's helping

00:50:00.420 out the world today I want to revisit part of the

00:50:03.700 conversation where I was talking about you

00:50:06.540 know offenders whose crimes might have been you

00:50:09.400 know too grave for admission into the program and

00:50:12.680 just to get a clearer sense of kind of the ground

00:50:17.380 truth here I mean one I guess a question for you

00:50:20.860 both are there people admitted to the program who are

00:50:25.900 never getting out of prison who are who are let's say

00:50:28.160 on is there anyone on death row admitted to the

00:50:31.540 program or is there some criterion by which people are

00:50:35.800 selected against based on what their actual sentence is

00:50:38.580 well so New York State doesn't have the death penalty

00:50:41.080 so we don't have death row thank God

00:50:42.820 so that clears that up but um and and you know really

00:50:46.260 for I think if Max Canada the director of the program

00:50:48.520 were here he would say that really for because of

00:50:50.420 limitations of space and resources anyone who has a

00:50:53.240 sentence of life without parole which is a very tiny

00:50:55.260 tiny percentage of people can't apply but there are

00:50:58.660 many people with life sentences which means you might

00:51:00.400 have 20 years to life or 30 years to life which means

00:51:02.700 that you have to go to the parole board at the you know

00:51:05.440 after 20 years are over and then it's up to the parole board

00:51:08.420 whether Jewel and Jewel had a sentence of a certain number

00:51:11.020 of years 22 years to life so there are people who have

00:51:14.000 gone through the program and or go to the parole board

00:51:16.660 and get released and some don't and so that's a real

00:51:19.760 thing and one of the you know issues that come up is that

00:51:22.740 you might finish the program and then you still have time

00:51:24.480 to serve and you can keep taking courses and mentoring

00:51:26.960 other students and that kind of thing so but you know it's

00:51:30.880 a tiny percentage of people that have life without parole and

00:51:33.140 most other people who are incarcerated as we said

00:51:35.320 before will be coming home and but some may not

00:51:38.420 right and Jewel you serve 22 years yes I served 22 years I

00:51:43.020 was sentenced to life that essentially said I didn't have

00:51:46.320 any requirement to be released you know but I had the

00:51:51.640 consideration of release after 22 years

00:51:54.900 and was your experience in BPI part of what the parole board

00:51:59.800 considered because I remember I don't I frankly can't remember

00:52:03.920 if it was you or some other student there but I remember the

00:52:08.160 frustration as a viewer seeing someone to have their parole

00:52:12.760 denied at a point in the film where it was pretty obvious this

00:52:16.800 is not a parole that you should be denying was that you or that

00:52:20.580 was multiple cases there yeah it should factor into the

00:52:25.160 conversation well what was that like well you know I can't speak

00:52:28.340 for the parole board you know they keep their decisions rightly so you

00:52:32.080 know amongst themselves they don't want to you know cause much

00:52:35.520 controversy but I think you know for me my personal experience of

00:52:39.720 going through the program then going to parole feeling like I was

00:52:43.220 ready but also having that self-reflective stance of what I was in

00:52:49.000 jail for it was hard it was really hard to be denied you know I felt I

00:52:53.460 was ready but it forced me to sit down a little bit longer and think

00:52:56.880 about why I was there you know but nonetheless the next parole board I

00:53:00.780 had I was released but that doesn't bring much attention to the fact that

00:53:06.220 there are many who are still being denied I think BPI we are building a

00:53:11.720 level of respect and understanding that we are sincere people we are

00:53:17.600 different people than we went in but nonetheless you know politics or you know

00:53:23.440 this idea this false dichotomy of the violent and a non-violent crime comes into

00:53:28.780 play whenever a person comes up for parole as well I will say that there the

00:53:33.920 New York State does have a policy that if you've completed some part of college

00:53:37.820 program you can get six months off your sentence so if you're going to be

00:53:41.400 released you can come home six months earlier but that's what I was that right

00:53:44.920 that's what you're not automatic but you're eligible to apply for that yes so

00:53:49.360 right yeah okay so yeah so Julie you just you mentioned something about a false

00:53:53.940 dichotomy between violent and non-violent crime there's a a picture

00:53:58.880 here of one obvious solution to the problem of mass incarceration is to

00:54:06.580 recognize that the war on drugs has been a terrible failure and that far too many

00:54:13.220 people are locked up for you know truly victimless crimes and Lynn perhaps you can

00:54:20.040 speak to this as well and this is obviously the low-hanging fruit of reform

00:54:24.860 but what percentage of the prison population is actually quote non-violent

00:54:31.620 I'm pretty sure that it's about half so you know and and these categorizations and I'm

00:54:37.660 not a criminal justice expert I will say I have done a fair amount of research so I

00:54:41.600 can understand the the big picture but about half of the people in prisons and

00:54:46.700 jails are incarcerated for crimes that are labeled as violent and in some cases

00:54:51.580 or a significant percentage of cases the label violent doesn't mean that that

00:54:55.760 person actually committed physical harm to somebody so the label is used fairly

00:54:59.780 broadly so that's one thing and we could have a whole long conversation about

00:55:04.040 that but then in addition you know there are people who are incarcerated who

00:55:08.180 have hurt other people physically and so that's where we you know we need to at

00:55:13.020 least face the fact that this is society we're not going to resolve or settle or

00:55:17.340 solve mass incarceration or we have incarcerated people at such an enormous

00:55:21.500 scale without addressing the fact that there are people many people in prison

00:55:25.640 hundreds of thousands who have committed physical harm but are you know trying to

00:55:31.000 redeem themselves and also you know reckon with that and and make the best of what

00:55:38.140 they have of their future and we can't do that if we don't offer them the

00:55:41.760 opportunity to get an education while incarcerated and I would like to add if

00:55:45.520 you take that population of people you know there's some great work being done

00:55:49.520 by if I may give credit to Bruce Western he's doing some great research that

00:55:54.360 shows one violent violence is situational it's environmental it's not person

00:56:00.880 based inherent inherent to many of the people who are incarcerated for violent

00:56:06.720 crime were once victims of violent crimes so these are

00:56:11.760 levels of evidence that we are engaged with now that shows that's why I use the

00:56:18.100 term false dichotomy of the violent person or the violent crime because you know we

00:56:24.220 it's more nuanced and engaged and I'm not trying to belittle any type I don't want to I'm not

00:56:30.180 the type to deny the significance of people who committed these crimes and how they cause harm

00:56:37.980 or whatever but nonetheless we have to understand that the label violent isn't adequate label to

00:56:46.600 describe what has happened we need to think more about environmental circumstances as well as his

00:56:53.620 generational if not historical particularly with women who are the fastest growing population now

00:57:00.080 are being incarcerated at a higher rate coming to prison with so many incidents of violence committed

00:57:06.220 against them and you know I just think that we have to like be having more nuanced understanding of

00:57:11.540 what's happening yeah okay go ahead I was gonna say it kind of goes back to the question that you know

00:57:17.700 we talked about at the beginning which is what is prison for yeah so you know yeah I guess I just want

00:57:22.980 to linger there for a moment because I feel like all of us certainly everyone who's been out of prison their

00:57:30.420 whole lives have had the reality of crime and violence advertised to them if they haven't experienced it

00:57:38.040 directly it's been advertised in film and fiction and in you know true crime literature and that amplifies

00:57:46.180 a certain data point that no doubt exists I mean that there are some people who are actually psychopaths

00:57:53.100 there are people who take sadistic pleasure in harming others and I mean they didn't invent themselves

00:57:59.100 either I mean this is a situational problem as well based on you know what their genes are and who

00:58:05.680 their parents were and how they were brought up and all the rest and whether they were victimized but

00:58:11.760 there's no question there are some truly scary people who we don't want to let out of prison but for the

00:58:19.500 vast majority of violent crimes as you point out jewel there are many more shades of gray as to what happened

00:58:27.640 there and how you know any one of us you know more or less psychologically normal person put into a

00:58:35.420 situation might find themselves you know in you know on the wrong side of a gun and again it's not that

00:58:44.300 the world is filled with bad people who would do bad things under any conceivable set of circumstances

00:58:51.120 that the world is far more full with people who are very much like ourselves who are pushed into

00:59:00.260 very unfortunate circumstances where a range of you know bad and worse options seem to be open to them

00:59:08.660 and so to just be put into closer contact with the details of these stories you know in a film like

00:59:15.760 the one you've made lynn and to just you know feel the you know the door of compassion open it's really

00:59:23.860 an experience people need to give themselves because everyone has had the hollywood version piped into

00:59:31.220 their brains since the moment they could watch television and it's not a clear picture of violence or

00:59:37.420 its casualties on either side thank you very much that's a very very thoughtful and um generous

00:59:44.080 description of what we've tried to do so sarah and i are very grateful thank you yeah we want people

00:59:48.800 to talk about this we want to have this conversation we think the film is a good way through which

00:59:53.140 people could start investigating their ideas and understanding what is like you know something

00:59:59.040 that they could stand by and something that is so nuanced that they need more evidence and i think

01:00:04.380 this film is a good point from which people could start this conversation and and that's what we're

01:00:09.180 hoping will happen around the thanksgiving table when we're tired of talking about impeachment

01:00:12.060 right that's right right so uh lynn was apart from seeing the film and i want you to reiterate

01:00:19.440 where people can see it but at the moment these kinds of programs are privately funded where do you

01:00:26.820 recommend i point people to put their shoulder to the wheel and and help support work like we see

01:00:34.380 in the film and has done it through bpi and other other programs yes thank you for asking that i i you

01:00:40.400 know i think that the bard prison initiative you can certainly people can contribute to that on you

01:00:45.260 can find the bpi bard bpi dot edu i think is the the place to find it on on the web and i would also

01:00:52.340 say that you know contacting our legislators and political leaders and saying that we are not happy

01:00:56.860 with the status quo and that we want that to be changed and have public funding sent toward it and

01:01:01.820 also you know as a graduate of an elite institution myself i am disappointed to put it mildly that

01:01:08.540 yale university with its 30 billion dollar endowment can't see a way to do much in this space they have

01:01:13.960 started a prison education program as a few other schools like it have but to get started they had to

01:01:19.280 get a grant from bpi to get going they didn't see fit to put their own resources toward it and you know

01:01:24.920 i think all of our elite institutions and public institutions of higher education also have a

01:01:29.680 responsibility as you know civic institutions to find the best students to expand their access and to

01:01:38.220 sort of fulfill their obligations to society so i think as you know anyone listening can contact your

01:01:44.180 alma mater see what they're doing and ask them why they're not doing more

01:01:47.460 well lynn and jewel it's been so great to get you on the program and again i just need to

01:01:53.680 insist that people see the film because this conversation is really not a substitute for that

01:02:00.280 experience as nice as it was to speak to you both watching the film really uh bowled me over so i just

01:02:08.280 i have to insist that this episode of the podcast really is just functioning as an infomercial for

01:02:14.900 the film you've made lynn so thank you thank you sam that's great it's been a pleasure thank you so much

01:02:19.900 yes okay well as i said this whole thing is a commercial for lynn's film so please see it if you

01:02:33.340 don't catch it live on pbs please watch the streamed version and let it do its work on your brain

01:02:42.260 once again all revenue associated with this episode of the podcast will be going to the

01:02:48.380 barred prison initiative i feel very happy and grateful to be in a position to make a decision

01:02:55.840 like that and it feels great to be inspired and thank you to lynn and jewel for the work they're doing

01:03:04.380 as well as sarah and everyone else associated with this film and everyone doing the work at bpi

01:03:10.440 and to all of you in the u.s i wish you a very happy thanksgiving and i'll see you back here on

01:03:17.560 the podcast soon until next time if you find this podcast valuable there are many ways you can support

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - November 23, 2019

#176 — Knowledge & Redemption

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