#197 — A Conversation with Caitlin Flanagan
Episode Stats
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Summary
Caitlin Flanagan talks about her experience in a Pandemic-like situation in which she was unable to contact her family or friends for a week. She talks about how she managed to get back on the phone, and how she dealt with the situation. And she talks about what it was like to be in a quarantine, and what it taught her about how to deal with a real-world pandemic. This episode was produced and edited by Sam Harris and Alex Blumberg. It was edited by Annie-Rose Strasser. Our theme music was made by Micah Vellian and our ad music was written and performed by Mark Phillips. The show was mixed by Matthew Boll. Additional music was produced by Haley Shaw. Our theme song was written, performed, and produced by Robert Kraychuck. We were edited by Rachel Ward. Sam Harris mixed this episode. It was produced, edited, and mixed by Patrick Muldowney. Special thanks to John Rocha and Sam Harris. The original music for this episode was done by Mark Boll and Bobby Lord, with additional mixing and mastering by Kevin McLeod, and additional mixing by Patrick McElroy, and the help of Matthew Boll and Mark Boll, and a very special thanks to Matthew Boll, as well as a very good friend of the podcast, Alex Boll, who was kind enough to join us in the making sense team to help us with the mixing and editing and mastering of the episode. Thanks to our theme song by Jeff Perla. and our thanks to our sponsor, for producing the music for the intro and outrope, and our sound design and background music by . and and the sound design by , and by is by by a very talented and , by the excellent Jeff Perlan by our composer, by Bobby Lord. by Matthew McEllegan and his amazing sound engineer, in the mixing engineer, and the sound engineer in this episode's editor, and thanks to & thanks to the amazing by Brian McEllen at the excellent work of , the wonderful (and on this episode s , our editor and . Thank you, is a very cool and lovely by her excellent music is by our supercharge and editing by and her excellent sound engineer and in .
Transcript
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If people only knew how difficult it was under pandemic conditions to get a valid connection
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connection, this has been brutal, but you're inheriting my bad tech karma because I just
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Oh, I assumed that you always had perfect connections at all times.
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No, it's just bad luck, but it happens enough that I'm used to it.
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And I actually, I did go out on Twitter when we first scheduled this, and we got some hundreds
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of questions, and I have a few of those seated in here.
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But let's just start with what's on your mind and what this experience of quarantine has been
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Well, I first want to say, Sam, that I think you saved my life because I am a person that
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has all these underlying conditions, and I was not taking this seriously as so many people
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And I'd even been, you know, I have to go to the doctor a lot, and I'd even ask the
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nurse, you know, what about this COVID or corona?
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And you just take some, you know, you drink a lot of fluids and you take some Tylenol.
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And it was so appealing to think that it was nothing.
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You know, you want to believe the good news always.
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And so I was going along thinking everyone was hysterical.
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And then you just happened to send me an email, a short email about something else.
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And at the bottom, you said, you know, be careful.
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And this is the kind of thing he would be really smart about.
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And as I was sitting in the work lunch, noticing the restaurant wasn't nearly as crowded as
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usual, the guy I was interviewing and I, our phones kept going off with all these different
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And while he was sitting there, a job he had booked that was really important to his family
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economically, financially, I should say, dropped out.
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And so it was kind of just seeing someone in real time losing work and income.
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And I walked out of there and I remember I never eat enough at a work lunch.
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I'm very nervous in work lunches and I always, you know, don't eat.
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I was walking to the car and I stopped in a drugstore and I bought a candy bar and I sat
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on the, it was a bench, you know, a bus bench, a bus stop bench on Ventura Boulevard.
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And all of a sudden I just thought, I need to go home.
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You know, Sam Harris said this, I'm seeing a lot of signs in it and I need to get home.
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And so I really personally have to thank you because I would have been, and still may be,
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in really serious, serious trouble if I get this.
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There was this really uncanny part of this mass induction into reality where I was essentially
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I began to feel like a character in a movie where it was just me and one other friend who
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And it just was a bizarre experience, bizarre conversations with family members and friends.
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I'm sure you've covered this before, but I'm so interested.
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What was it that made you realize this was a really serious thing?
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I've been waiting for a pandemic on some level.
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I actually did a podcast maybe six months ago on this topic.
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You know, I have a template for this sort of thing happening, although I'm fairly amazed
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at how little detail was in the template and how strange this experience has been as it
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But the prospect of this happening wasn't foreign to me.
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It really wasn't until the end of February that I was paying attention.
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And people who were really paying attention were a month earlier than I was.
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For whatever reason, I was so distracted by other things.
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I wasn't really noticing the reports from Wuhan.
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But I also just happened, by sheer coincidence, I happened to know someone who got this very
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And so the prospect of this was just like the flu seemed far-fetched, you know, albeit
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for reasons that are not statistically sophisticated.
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I could have happened to know someone who died from the flu, too, and had my intuitions move
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But it kind of anchored me to a sense that, no, people my age are going down from this.
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And I don't know people dying from the flu or being intubated and spending more than a
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It's just been interesting to see how long a week is in COVID time.
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And I think that's the emotional thing that everybody's, you know, everyone's had a personal
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And, you know, we all know what that's like and the feeling of shock and of panic and sort
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of getting our vision very, very narrowed into what's, you know, when there's a crisis,
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people get their priorities straight in about two minutes.
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You know, most of the time we bumble around and we wonder, what am I supposed to be doing
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And could I advance myself or my children in different ways?
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And then there's a crisis and you get down to the material aspects of life and what really
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And we're all sort of having this at the same time, this incredible feeling of dislocation,
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of fear, of the intensity of love that we have for the people we love, that, you know,
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you can't really think about that too much in regular conditions because it would just tear
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you apart and you could never leave them for a minute.
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And I kind of think of it as when I was a kid, we were in Ireland a lot in Dublin and
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in Dublin Bay, when the tide goes out, there's a certain strand and the tide will, you know,
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when it's low tide, all of a sudden you see everything that was underneath the water for
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the last 12 hours, you see the pebbles and the sea glass and the big dangerous rocks that
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And then it gets covered up again and you can't see any of it in that brown water.
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We're seeing the big rocks and we're trying desperately to avoid them in our personal
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And we know that things, you know, everything here is beyond our control.
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One thing that we can't lose sight of is how different, I mean, we're all in some kind
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of common predicament, but there's so many different kinds of experiences to be having
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And it's easy for me to lose sight of that because I'm in touch with many people who
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are having a pretty similar experience to the one I'm having and not so in touch with
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people who are in some ways having the opposite experience.
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I'm in touch with a fair number of doctors who are working, you know, who are performing
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surgeries and who are on the front lines of this.
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But there are the people out in the world who are part of critical infrastructure who are
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still working and exposing themselves to this and, you know, exposing others if they're
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And then there are the people like ourselves who are sheltering in place.
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And those are obviously very different experiences.
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And then there are the people who are locked down as we are, but who have their lives totally
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You know, they can't work because their work was synonymous with not being locked down.
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It'll say they're running a restaurant or working in a store, both of which are closed.
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And then there are people who either don't have families, now they're experiencing social
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isolation of a sort that they may have never experienced or, you know, go for years and
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And then there are the people like ourselves who, I mean, you and I haven't spoken about
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this, but I can assume you're probably experiencing at least to some degree a silver lining effect
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here because you're locked down with your family.
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And there's been something really beautiful about discovering some of the things on the
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beach that were truly precious that you were not necessarily seeing on an hour by hour basis.
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Well, I think that we're really seeing this division between are you a laptop jockey or not?
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You know, if your work is able to be done entirely in this immaterial space of, you know, data
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that's transported back and forth between computers, then you're probably not taking a financial
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And it's interesting, the New York Times, it will endlessly fascinate me until the day
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I die, where they cover very well and very broadly the situation in all times, but now
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in particular, of what it's like to be out of work or to be low income at this time or
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to be sort of fragile in terms of your financial status and then have it all ripped away.
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They cover it very well, but all of their social coverage is, you know, their cooking
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recommendations are endless and they're watch this on Netflix and what a great time to reorganize
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And you realize that if they're a product, they know their consumer very well.
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But even within that social class where we are lucky to live, I think it's even deeper
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than, I mean, including the nature of love, but I think it's bumped us quite suddenly into
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the material world and the realization of how far we have gotten away from it.
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And I've been, the thing that amazes me, Sam, more than anything else, you know, the toilet
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paper shortages, there'll be jokes and whatever about that.
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I mean, all of this, it'll take a decade or more to understand this.
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The thing that amazes me is that America is out of yeast and yeast doesn't mean cookies
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And Americans in a huge number, that's one of the most elemental human activities there is.
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We can get the same sliced bread that we always got.
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But people are being drawn, I think, and, you know, I don't want to sound, I don't know,
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too out of the reel to say this, but I noticed that our, you know, I've written about this a lot,
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We don't have a deep, as much as we think we have a deep connection to our homes,
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and as much as HGTV, the redecorating channel, as many fans as it has, even for those kind of
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wealthy people remodeling homes, they're not deeply, they're not centers of production,
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You know, lug in your chips and your sodas and watch the TV and then off you go to the
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But all of a sudden now, our homes aren't places to display ourselves or our wealth, or
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it's sort of, oh, thank God I have a stove and an oven, and thank God I've got this freezer.
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And people are, we try to live a life, it's just sort of like mind, body, spirit, we try
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to live a life that we can just, the way I grew up, you live totally in your head.
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But then you get to a point you realize, no, you've got to live in your body, too.
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And I think that we have gotten in that kind of feeling of just, our homes are these pit
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And then anybody who's in that laptop jockey level of the economy, which is a very small
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percentage, but with a huge influence on society, their homes are often much too big for them.
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They can't even find a really warm, close place to be together.
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It's nothing to really think about or be concerned about now.
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But I think when the water comes back in, and when we're well again, and this is over,
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You know, is there a way to live our lives where the things that were exposed to us that
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are of high degree of worth, is there a way that we're willing to sacrifice other things
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For all the people who are successfully working from home now, they'll be faced with a choice
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about whether or not to return to the former pattern of being in an office building for their
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And I got to think many of the companies that successfully pivoted to a distributed
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workforce may stay distributed just for quality of life reasons.
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And what do you think it's going to do to education?
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Oh, this is, this is, to me, having been a teacher and writing a lot about education,
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this has been the most interesting thing to me.
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It's a time where everything's interesting, which is why we're all exhausted.
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But, you know, America, in this incredible thing, you know, hat is off to the teachers
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of America that in two weeks, they scrambled to get a distance learning program together
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How could it be two weeks to totally switch, you know, methods of teaching?
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That's really, you know, obviously, it's not very practical.
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But the thing that parents, I talk to a lot of them because I'm so interested, the thing
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that parents complain about more than the quality and more than how harassing it is, all these
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different systems and passwords and, you know, really little kids need a lot of help with
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The thing they complain about is how short it is that before they know it, that they
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imagine that their children would have seven hours.
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They'd have sort of seven hours of coverage the way they do when they drop a child at school.
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But the actual instructional time in an American school for the core subjects that are the
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make and break of a child, boy, that's 90 minutes.
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I struggled on how to take the temperature of this thing.
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So what I've defaulted to is just asking my oldest daughter her perception of how much
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And her perception is that she's learning more.
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And it's in a fraction of the time, which makes me feel like, OK, school, at least at
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this age, is essentially daycare plus, you know, a play date with friends.
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If she can learn as much in two hours as she does in a full day of school, what's going
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And I think in the wealthier communities or in the private schools, it doesn't add up
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to a problem because a wealthy parent, they get a test score in, you know, a standardized
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And if it's low, a reading score, that's perceived as an emergency.
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And tutors, sometimes very expensive tutors are brought in.
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And, you know, unless there's a problem, you know, reading and math in particular, you
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can remediate quickly and reading to an extent.
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So and wealthier parents nowadays, they you hear people who run private schools talking
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Wealthier parents care tremendously about the experience of the school day.
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They want their kids to be engaged every minute in a in a sort of delightful, you know, way.
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And and so they're willing to have that happen.
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But when you look at I mean, California's education, it's it is in crisis.
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I mean, Sam, just do this when you get off with me or if you have some time, go online and
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take the basic proficiency reading test that 60 percent of kids flunk can't pass that that
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And these kids year after year after year, you know, you start you know, this is what
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When you start falling behind in math, a year goes by, two years go by.
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You're just lost and you can't catch up and you don't have the private tutor.
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So what we're really doing, as you say, is we're covering the day for working parents.
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We have a tremendous disparity because when it's the wealthy parents are going to remediate
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the non-wealthy parents, you know, they're probably in a different address by the time
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that test score comes in, you know, and the test score is the farthest thing from an emergency
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So and if anybody thoughtful was looking at it and said, gee, the number one thing that
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holds these kids back is math and reading, then we would teach a lot of math and reading.
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But in California, we have 180 day school year.
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And that doesn't mean you're going to get 180 lessons in reading because you have assemblies
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and special schedules and all sorts of things that block into it.
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We're not required a number of hours in these essential subjects.
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So I think we're all getting a look at things we don't want to think about.
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We don't want to face facts about, you know, our lower income level of education.
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We don't want to face facts about, gee, if my kid's really just having an experience at
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And you know who's having the last laugh now are the homeschoolers because it's all the
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laptop jockeys are running around looking for a password and, you know, being so upset that
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they've, like, 90 minutes later, everything's done.
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Boy, the homeschoolers are on top of that, you know?
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I spent about 30 seconds thinking about the irony here because the homeschooling movement,
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at least my perception of it in the U.S., is that it's, I don't know what the actual
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percentage is, but it seems like fundamentalist Christians are overrepresented in that movement.
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You know, I've been hearing from them over the years for obvious reasons.
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But just to recognize that these people have to be the absolute experts in what everyone's
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But the other interesting thing, and I mean, this is back to our decadent life before we
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The very wealthy because they realize that school is an interference to the thing that gets
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You get in the Ivy League if you're from a wealthy family because you have such a developed
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talent that is recognized usually on a national or even international level and that school
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And so they hire people to get the kids through higher level curriculum for sure, but they want
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to be free from school so that they can develop the thing that gets you into the Ivy League.
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So it's just a really, I guess, you know, it is a, once again, with the haves and have
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nots, you know, this squeezing out of a middle class entirely and this just entirely different
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So how much of a reset do you think we're experiencing here?
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How different do you think the world will look in a year or 18 months or after the epidemiological
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and economic implications of all of this run their course?
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Again, I don't know what the timeline actually is, but it's hard to see how whatever the new
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normal is will seem anything like normal shorter than 12 months from now.
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Well, you know, I have no idea that, you know, just in America, the notion that once again,
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up against Donald Trump, we have the weakest Democratic candidate in my lifetime.
00:21:22.520
Well, okay, so let's put a pin in the great Joe Biden for a moment because there's a lot
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But I just wanted to point one thing out here that there are at least two, if not paradoxes,
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ironies that we're going to be slamming up against now.
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The first is one that I pointed out on Twitter yesterday, as did several other people, which
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is that if social distancing actually works as intended, which is to say, if, you know,
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we flatten the curve, which it seems like we're doing in many places, such that the healthcare
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system doesn't break, the level of contagion and morbidity and mortality is more flu-like
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than smallpox-like, the people who have been resisting social distancing, the people who've
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been crying hoax, you know, media hoax, and they will feel totally vindicated.
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You know, I'm in touch with some of these people.
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They're smart people, many of them, but they've managed to craft for themselves a truly
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Like, only bodies piled to the sky would convince them that they were wrong about this, and maybe
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And then there's just this very strange element to this confirmation bias, which is the cities,
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the blue counties, were the first and hardest hit by this, right?
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So in Trumpistan, the virus is only now arriving, right?
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It's just that this was perfectly tailored for misinformation and conspiracy theory and
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confirmation bias and just a complete failure of public health split along political lines.
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Something like 97% of Americans are actually under lockdown orders now.
00:23:17.940
So you've got to think the social distancing is happening even in, you know, the reddest of
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But up until very recently, there were, you know, scenes of people, you know, impact churches
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and, you know, how this is going to interact with our politics in the coming months.
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I don't know, but it's been a pretty depressing spectacle to watch on social media.
00:23:38.640
Well, I'm always amazed by, well, first place, the thing to really know about America is we're
00:23:46.940
We put on a story that we all believe that has to do with us sort of all heading in the
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But I remember one thing to my father who was, he was a freshman in college when Pearl
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And he, you know, went off to the Pacific and did his thing and then finished college.
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And, you know, I never thought about it at all.
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And then Tom Brokaw came up with the notion of the greatest generation.
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And I was like, oh, that's my gosh, you know, my own father, you know, lived childhood in
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the depression and then, you know, going off to war.
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And I said, dad, do you know you're the greatest generation?
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And he looked up and said, if you had known one of the enlisted men on my ship, you would
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And he just said the level of ignorance, of racism.
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I'm not at all speaking to the troops of today for whom I have a great respect.
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And obviously, we're talking about men who were raised in the 30s and mostly Southerners
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And I really realized it when there was a video of a woman.
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I don't know where, but she was somewhere in Trumpistan.
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And I think a cop and a cameraman at the same time, camera person, were witnessing this moment
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where the policeman was saying, you know, you have to go home.
00:25:13.340
No, I tweeted that as the atheists have finally found their Super Bowl commercial.
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But it's, but on the other hand, can you imagine to live in that life, she's much more at peace
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She really have that belief, which to us is, I mean, doesn't even sound like a good thing.
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I wish she had said blood of the lamb or something even more cultic and creepy.
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But for some reason, I thought Jesus's blood was more, I don't know.
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But to be covered in it, I'm sure this goes back.
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I always say the people who are really understand their religions are the fundamentalists.
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Like we all like, you know, say the worst things about them.
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But I'm like, you know, you read the Quran and you're like, oh, it's a pretty bloodthirsty
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book, you know, it's like, but we all come along and, you know, I'm, you know, Catholic
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But then there are these people who really believe this stuff.
00:26:23.180
And, and why do we, I mean, not bringing you into this, obviously, but who do we go to
00:26:28.500
like St. John the Divine and then like have a nice brunch afterwards with Joan Didion or
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Why do we think that we are better than they are?
00:26:42.480
Yes, you may, during which I'll be praying for your soul.
00:26:46.720
Your reference to birth control reminded me of one of your recent delightful tweets.
00:26:52.080
This is right at the beginning of our quarantine where we're wiping off packages with Clorox.
00:26:58.420
And I think you wrote, I haven't been this nervous about getting something wrong since I got my
00:27:06.940
It was really, I mean, it was a joke, but it was true.
00:27:09.460
I remember being a young person and you think you're doing it right.
00:27:13.260
And with most things, if you're mostly doing it right, then you're mostly getting the benefit.
00:27:18.680
But I remember this thing like, if I get this wrong, it's going to be this incredible disaster.
00:27:28.500
But mentioning that, you know, you ask what's going to change.
00:27:31.580
I think we're going to see a very positive change in sexuality.
00:27:35.060
Because I have, you know, being my generation, which was, you know, after the sexual revolution,
00:27:43.540
before AIDS had really spilled into the heterosexual population or was even understood, sex was this
00:27:51.440
font of tremendous pleasure and tremendous closeness to the young man whom I dated or whom
00:28:01.400
I was in a relationship with, kind of serial monogamy as a dater.
00:28:05.480
And it was this just intensely exquisite thing that would keep you in relationships longer and
00:28:12.440
that would give you an illusion of more, you know, closeness of, you know, true minds on something.
00:28:19.460
And now I hear so many young people, especially young women, whom you would think, well, boy,
00:28:31.400
And I think a little bit more discernment, a little bit higher stakes, a little bit more
00:28:39.200
sense that, okay, let's get to know each other.
00:28:44.820
Let's find out our testing on this, not just the callous STD testing.
00:28:50.600
But I think this could really change this idea of ultimate randomness for, especially for
00:29:00.220
The idea that that is a pleasurable thing for the majority is a, it's an error in thinking.
00:29:09.520
So I think that this may begin to change that porn driven culture, which has been so bad for most
00:29:20.500
Well, we're going to talk about women in a second because we're getting into politics.
00:29:24.000
I want to drop your Twitter handle here because I don't know where this is going to be paywalled,
00:29:38.960
Caitlin has figured out Twitter and it's delightful.
00:29:43.660
So the election, my God, what have we done here?
00:29:50.400
We couldn't find one who either doesn't have dementia or doesn't seem to have dementia.
00:29:57.820
It is, it is bewildering because we'd like to continue listening to this podcast,
00:30:13.080
You'll get access to all full length episodes of the Making Sense podcast and to other subscriber
00:30:17.700
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00:30:23.720
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