Making Sense - Sam Harris - October 08, 2020


#219 — The Power of Compassion


Episode Stats

Length

48 minutes

Words per Minute

145.17058

Word Count

7,058

Sentence Count

222

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

6


Summary

James Doty grew up in poverty and faced a number of challenges, and seemed by no means guaranteed to succeed in life. But as you can hear, he has accomplished quite a lot, and we talk about how we might better understand and facilitate the human capacity to overcome obstacles and bring more compassion into our lives, and to generally make the world a better place. In this episode, I speak with Dr. James Doty, who is a professor of neurosurgery at Stanford University and the Director of the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. He is also a philanthropist who has funded health clinics throughout the world and has endowed scholarships and chairs at multiple universities, and he also serves on the board of a number non-profit organizations. As you ll hear, Dr. Doty has a very unusual background, and as you ll find out in this episode: he grew up with a father who was an alcoholic, a mother who was clinically depressed, and a father with a stroke who was partially paralyzed. And then, at the age of 12, he was introduced to magic by an encounter he had in a strip mall. And that s how he became the Jim Doty we know today. by walking into a magic shop or, as he put it, Into the Magic Shop . in the words of his memoir, Into The Magic Shop. What is a Magic Shop? a place where you can do magic? . in which you can make sense of your life and the magic shop is a place you can help you become a better version of yourself as a better you of who you are you can be a better human being is a better person because you can become better than you . . and you can have a more compassionate, kinder ? to help you be kinder, more compassionate so you can more of a better world better of yourself? and so on and so much more thanks for listening to the Making Sense Podcast. by Sam Harris . Thank you for listening for making sense - Sam Harris, thank you, no questions asked, no question asked made by the making sense of it Thank you, No questions asked? - by & as always, - the making Sense Podcast Sarah, by Sarah Goodman


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:08.460 This is Sam Harris.
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00:00:46.920 Okay, no housekeeping today.
00:00:49.640 I will jump right into it.
00:00:52.280 Today I'm speaking with James Doty.
00:00:54.480 James is a professor of neurosurgery at Stanford University and the director of the Center
00:01:00.760 for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education.
00:01:04.320 He is also a philanthropist who has funded health clinics throughout the world and has
00:01:08.960 endowed scholarships and chairs at multiple universities.
00:01:11.780 And he also serves on the board of a number of non-profits.
00:01:16.620 And as you'll hear, he has a very unusual background.
00:01:20.300 He grew up in real poverty and faced a number of challenges and seemed by no means guaranteed
00:01:27.260 to succeed in life.
00:01:29.640 But as you can hear, he has accomplished quite a lot.
00:01:33.140 So we talk about how he did that and how we might better understand and facilitate the
00:01:39.740 human capacity to overcome obstacles and bring more compassion into our lives and to generally
00:01:46.840 make the world a better place.
00:01:49.640 And now I bring you James Doty.
00:01:51.720 I am here with James Doty.
00:02:00.140 Jim, thanks for joining me.
00:02:02.060 It's a pleasure to be with you.
00:02:03.140 Thanks for having me.
00:02:05.000 We're going to spend a lot of time talking about how you came to be the Jim Doty, who's
00:02:09.360 now speaking with me.
00:02:11.000 But tell me how you summarize what you're up to now.
00:02:14.520 I'm a professor of neurosurgery at Stanford.
00:02:17.620 Probably more germane for our conversation is I'm the founder and director of the Center
00:02:23.840 for Compassion and Altruism, which is part of the School of Medicine and of which the
00:02:29.560 Dalai Lama is actually the founding benefactor.
00:02:32.640 And I'm also an inventor and entrepreneur and philanthropist at times.
00:02:38.800 And I have really an interest actually in what drives people to be good, if you will.
00:02:46.180 Okay, well, let's begin at the beginning.
00:02:50.000 You've written a very poignant memoir, Into the Magic Shop, which covers your childhood,
00:02:57.440 which really is not the usual childhood, or I can only imagine it's not the usual childhood
00:03:02.380 for someone who has the breadth of your life experience at this point.
00:03:08.820 I mean, your memoir, it's almost like a fairy tale of challenges.
00:03:13.500 I mean, just it entailed an incredible amount of stress.
00:03:17.880 In your earliest years, your father was an alcoholic, your mother was clinically depressed
00:03:23.540 and often suicidally depressed.
00:03:25.820 And then you had this transformation based on an encounter you had in a magic shop, literally
00:03:33.000 a magic shop.
00:03:34.340 So let's talk about how you began this journey of yours in life.
00:03:39.360 How would you describe your childhood and what happened in the magic shop?
00:03:46.780 Sure.
00:03:47.360 Well, of course, when a child grows up in poverty with a father who's an alcoholic, a mother
00:03:54.420 who's had a stroke, partially paralyzed, clinically depressed, the big factor is that in some ways
00:04:04.820 you're in a war zone all the time because you never know what's going to happen.
00:04:07.820 You know, I wouldn't know whether my father was going to not come home or come home drunk
00:04:14.180 or whether I would come in from school and my mother would be passed out from an overdose
00:04:20.380 and I would have to call an ambulance.
00:04:22.860 So, of course, when you grow up in that type of an environment, it's quite chaotic.
00:04:27.960 And as you know, there's something called adverse childhood experiences, and this is essentially
00:04:34.240 a technique where you sort of collect these events that a child lives with growing up,
00:04:40.580 poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, etc.
00:04:44.640 And the higher the number, the less likely that child is going to, if you will, succeed by societal
00:04:53.900 norms and more likely that the child themselves will have drug and alcohol abuse and mental
00:04:59.520 illness and a variety of other obvious negative events happen in their life.
00:05:04.920 And at the age of 12, I was filled with hopelessness, despair, anger, and obviously it was affecting
00:05:15.240 me.
00:05:15.500 And in fact, I was becoming a juvenile delinquent.
00:05:17.680 And I had had an interest in magic, and what would happen is when an event would happen at
00:05:23.920 home that was not particularly pleasant, I would get on my Stingray bike and ride as far away
00:05:32.040 as possible.
00:05:32.980 And on one of those adventures, I happened by a strip mall, and at the strip mall was a magic
00:05:40.380 store, which I went into.
00:05:42.700 And the thing was that when I walked in, of course, my interest was in magic in the store,
00:05:48.860 and there was a woman sitting there who had long flowing gray hair and her glasses on the
00:05:54.520 tip of her nose and a chain around her glasses reading a paperback.
00:05:58.440 And she looked up at me, and she had this really extraordinarily radiant smile.
00:06:05.880 And I asked her about the magic that I was interested in, and she said, well, I don't know
00:06:10.740 anything about this, this is my son's store, I'm just here for the summer.
00:06:15.340 But this led us really to a conversation that ended up being quite deep, and one, frankly,
00:06:22.380 which I wasn't used to.
00:06:24.380 And the reason the conversation happened was because this is a person who made me feel
00:06:31.760 psychologically safe.
00:06:33.240 I wasn't fearful of her.
00:06:34.820 I wasn't fearful that I was being judged, and she actually spoke to me as if I was an
00:06:41.000 equal, and that my opinion actually meant something, which for a child from my background
00:06:46.920 was somewhat unusual.
00:06:49.920 Yeah, so we'll talk about meditation and compassion and all of these interests that you and I have
00:06:58.200 in common, and obviously your connection to training the mind was initiated in this dialogue
00:07:09.020 with Ruth in the magic shop.
00:07:11.440 But what she was teaching you was not, in some ways it was kind of a standard meditation
00:07:15.820 practices, but in other ways it wasn't.
00:07:19.360 How would you summarize what she taught you there?
00:07:22.480 Well, I think there were four parts, and I have to tell you, I mean, when she offered
00:07:30.280 over the period of the six weeks to meet with me and, if you will, train me, which isn't
00:07:36.820 really what she called it, but I actually, you know, had some concerns even about showing
00:07:42.600 up.
00:07:43.220 And I showed up not because I had self-awareness or insight.
00:07:46.960 I showed up because she was giving me cookies, and frankly, I had absolutely nothing else to
00:07:51.460 do.
00:07:52.480 But I did show up, and the first thing she taught me, which is a technique that now we
00:07:57.860 would call a body survey and a breathing technique, and I did not appreciate that when you're stressed
00:08:06.420 and you're anxious and your mind is all over the place, that with intention, doing this technique
00:08:15.820 of relaxing the body and then slowly breathing in and releasing your breath really had a,
00:08:22.460 profound, profound physiologic effect.
00:08:24.800 This was in 1968, and of course, terms like mindfulness or meditation or neuroplasticity were
00:08:32.380 certainly not commonly used at all.
00:08:36.220 And after a few weeks of doing this practice, I felt in some ways much calmer.
00:08:43.140 And it was interesting because while the first few weeks I didn't really notice anything, as
00:08:51.320 I did it more, I did notice something.
00:08:54.620 And, but one of the things I was having challenges with was as I did this and sat with my own silence,
00:09:02.700 I would have this negative dialogue going on in my head.
00:09:07.400 And it was one that said, I wasn't good enough, I wasn't smart enough, et cetera, et cetera.
00:09:14.240 And what she explained to me was that that dialogue was not truth, and that negative commentary,
00:09:24.620 if you will, sticks to us because they're the things that potentially put us at risk.
00:09:31.380 And that, in fact, that negative commentary could be changed.
00:09:36.720 And this is what she called training the mind or taming the mind.
00:09:42.080 And basically, it's what we would now call self-compassion, this technique that has been
00:09:49.540 advocated by Krista Neff and others, to be kind to yourself.
00:09:54.660 I realized that I was always beating myself up and blaming myself for my situation.
00:10:03.440 And so with that technique, and she described it as listening to a radio station, if you
00:10:10.620 will, that you could change it, I changed it from one of negativity to one of self-affirmation
00:10:18.020 and self-acceptance.
00:10:21.080 And that, in fact, I was worthy.
00:10:24.600 I did tell people that when you make these types of negative comments to yourself, it's
00:10:30.860 as if you're laying these bricks down that are creating a self-imposed prison and very
00:10:36.080 much giving your power away or agency away to change things in your life.
00:10:42.240 Because every time you say, I can't, it's not possible, the reality is that.
00:10:48.740 And I did not even understand that at the time.
00:10:52.180 And so by changing that dialogue was extraordinarily helpful to me for a couple reasons.
00:11:01.100 One is, many of us have a shadow self that we don't want to admit to, and things that we
00:11:07.880 don't like about ourselves, things that disgust us about ourselves, our failings.
00:11:13.000 And for many people, they have a tendency to try to push it away from them or hide it somewhere.
00:11:19.480 And it doesn't go away.
00:11:22.060 And in fact, when you're troubled or have difficulties, that's when it shows itself.
00:11:27.340 And this is where you can relate it to addiction.
00:11:30.420 When you're particularly stressed, that addiction comes out.
00:11:34.440 And so she taught me to accept that as a part of me and don't deny it and just be aware of it.
00:11:41.060 And the other thing is that because I was so critical of myself, it made me hypercritical of everything and everyone around me.
00:11:52.400 And what I found is that because of that, when I interacted with others or tried to accomplish something, I would take a negative view of it.
00:12:04.600 And what I didn't appreciate is that human beings have this unique ability to intuit emotional states from facial expressions, voice intonation, body habitus, even smells.
00:12:17.940 And when you carry yourself in that fashion, people don't want to be around you or they shy away or they're not open and they're not generous.
00:12:26.100 And as a result, what I tell people is that when I changed how I looked at myself, it changed how the world interacted with me.
00:12:41.180 The other side effect of that was that I carried a lot of anger and hostility towards my personal situation, my parents.
00:12:52.980 And of course, that was not fruitful in any way.
00:12:57.500 And what happened was that I was able to see them in a much different way.
00:13:03.980 I saw them as human beings who had their own pain and suffering and the tools that they had to deal with them were not effective at all.
00:13:16.980 You know, hiding your pain behind alcohol or, you know, taking pills to get rid of the pain and hoping that it would keep it away isn't helpful.
00:13:27.720 And I, in some ways, forgave them and accepted the situation, not trying to hope the situation would be different.
00:13:39.180 And that change in perspective, which I think is important in a lot of these practices, is really very, very important.
00:13:46.820 Well, she taught you something else in the magic shop, which on the surface can sound pretty spooky.
00:13:56.180 I mean, it's in line with what you just described generically in terms of changing your concept of yourself.
00:14:03.720 I mean, she asked you to list what you want in life and to visualize yourself having it.
00:14:09.740 I mean, to really inhabit the person who already has these things, whether it's great wealth or great success,
00:14:15.500 or you had a list of things which was fairly adorable for a 12-year-old, including, you know, having a Porsche and a Rolex.
00:14:23.740 But she wanted you to not see it from the outside, but really see it from the inside and to practice this visualization that really this is a fait accompli.
00:14:32.920 You're guaranteed to arrive at the desired station in life.
00:14:36.580 And what you need to do now is inhabit the psychology of that and make it real for yourself.
00:14:43.040 And, you know, as you walk a line in your description of this that is, to my eye, on the right side of rational here,
00:14:53.480 because there's a rational way to understand how this can benefit a person, but it could also just tip into sounding like the secret.
00:15:01.480 I don't know if you remember that book and that movie, the movie by the name that is the appropriate target of opprobrium
00:15:07.040 at the center of New Age irrationality, but the idea that if you just visualize things or think it's true or assert that it's true,
00:15:14.340 it will become true, whether it's, you know, attaining wealth or losing weight or anything else.
00:15:18.660 But, you know, describe to me how you think about the power of visualizing certain outcomes
00:15:26.260 and how that enforces change in one's basic neurology or one's associated behavior
00:15:34.840 and the kinds of, you know, opportunities that present themselves in life.
00:15:39.760 Sure. No, I think you're right.
00:15:40.980 I will be frank with you.
00:15:43.360 I'm not a fan of the secret or the Celestine prophecies, etc.
00:15:49.440 You know, I don't believe that there's a magic external power and we just need to tap into it and everything will be wonderful.
00:15:59.060 What I do believe, and in some ways I said earlier, is that each of us has extraordinary power.
00:16:06.980 We just don't realize it.
00:16:10.840 And, you know, negative self-dialogue limits that power.
00:16:15.960 What she taught me and what I realize is that when you utilize your senses,
00:16:22.180 and I think we see this now in sports psychology, you know, people think about the athletic event they're going to do over and over and over again.
00:16:30.660 And the reality is, as an example, you know, it's been shown in a variety of studies that when you think about, as an example, lifting weights,
00:16:38.800 you actually increase to a small degree your muscle mass just by thinking about it.
00:16:43.540 And when you repeat something in your head over and over and over again, it starts setting down neuropathways.
00:16:51.840 And when you utilize all your senses to do that, you write it down, you read it, you verbalize it, you think about it, etc., etc.,
00:17:02.460 then I would say that if there is a possibility of it happening, that is the best technique to help that manifest.
00:17:13.000 And I'll give you an interesting example.
00:17:16.880 As a neurosurgeon, of course, I see a lot of patients who have a variety of conditions,
00:17:21.540 but most of the patients who see me will say something like,
00:17:25.180 wow, doctor, I've never heard of that.
00:17:27.400 And then I see them a few months later and they go, you know, it's the most amazing thing.
00:17:31.160 Since we talked about it, I found out I have that.
00:17:33.760 I've run into five people who, in fact, do have that.
00:17:37.040 And the reason is, is because you have put a subconscious primer out there and they're now attuned to that.
00:17:46.840 And in many ways, this is like the technique that Ruth taught me.
00:17:51.480 I put into my subconscious this idea, this possibility, this potential opportunity,
00:17:59.480 and then I am attuned to events that will allow that to occur.
00:18:06.000 I don't know if you've seen the book by a guy named Bob Neese.
00:18:10.360 It's called The Power of 50 Bits.
00:18:12.880 No.
00:18:13.840 Well, the premise is as follows, is that we have about 6 to 10 million sensory inputs happening every second,
00:18:23.760 but we're really only able to process about 50 or 100.
00:18:27.880 And so when you put these things into your subconscious, in some ways you're creating a folder with that thing in it that sits out there,
00:18:38.720 and that's one of the things that you're going to pay attention to, but it's not necessarily on a conscious level.
00:18:43.860 And I think that is how you're able to have these things manifest.
00:18:50.280 But it's not, you know, praying to a power and hoping it happens.
00:18:56.780 There's actually a process here.
00:18:59.340 And, you know, if you look at the placebo effect, if you look at how different individuals are able to make things happen,
00:19:08.180 and as an example, of course, we know monks who can control their heart rate or their body temperature,
00:19:13.500 all of these things are available to us.
00:19:16.480 It's how do you get access to it, and what's the best way to get access to it to have it manifest.
00:19:22.800 Yeah, well, there's a fact here which explains a lot of this,
00:19:28.260 and it's that the brain, on some level, doesn't know the difference between what's real and what is merely a simulation.
00:19:38.460 I mean, the brain is a kind of simulation machine,
00:19:41.640 and the dreaming brain and the waking brain share a fair amount of real estate,
00:19:46.600 apart from their frontal reality testing mode that kind of goes offline when you're dreaming.
00:19:52.140 So to visualize something vividly is not nothing for the brain, right?
00:19:58.740 It is you are training something, and there are many levels of this phenomenon we can witness,
00:20:06.300 you know, some deliberate and some not.
00:20:08.380 I mean, the change you noticed in your patients,
00:20:11.800 everyone has noticed in their lives when they decide they're looking for a new car
00:20:16.600 or they're looking for a new anything,
00:20:18.720 that class of objects in the world suddenly becomes super salient to them,
00:20:23.020 and they're noticing that brand of car or that type of dog or anything else that they have suddenly become interested in.
00:20:29.020 They're noticing that thing everywhere,
00:20:30.500 and it looks like there's been a change in the frequency out in the world,
00:20:34.820 but no, it's just you're just filtering based on that class of information.
00:20:38.540 And it should be very easy to see how negative self-concepts become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:20:45.340 If you think you're the kind of person who isn't good at parties,
00:20:50.400 can't socialize effectively with people,
00:20:53.280 a person who no one likes,
00:20:55.120 well, if that's your self-talk,
00:20:56.420 you can imagine just what you're ramifying in relationship with people out in the world,
00:21:01.920 and the way that becomes self-perpetuating.
00:21:04.240 And the opposite, obviously, can become the case.
00:21:08.360 And what you're describing is a practice of kind of seizing the reins deliberately
00:21:13.720 and jump-starting a virtuous cycle of self-fulfillment
00:21:18.840 and just changing your self-concept.
00:21:22.320 No, I think that's exactly right.
00:21:24.100 And, you know, what's so unfortunate is that this is free and available to everyone.
00:21:31.780 And what's unfortunate is, as you point out,
00:21:34.700 people get into these cycles of these negative emotional states and ruminate on them.
00:21:40.440 And again, unfortunately, it just reinforces that.
00:21:44.640 Again, I was fortunate in that with Ruth's intervention, if you will,
00:21:50.700 that changed everything.
00:21:51.740 And it made me see the issue wasn't me.
00:21:57.700 The issue was my negative self-talk.
00:21:59.960 And once I got over that and truly believed, if you will, of infinite possibilities,
00:22:06.340 then that allowed a whole series of events to happen.
00:22:10.940 Well, so then you went on to go to college,
00:22:14.120 as improbable as that seemed, given your background.
00:22:17.100 And it really did seem improbable,
00:22:18.940 even with all your visualization, you sort of barely got an application in hand.
00:22:24.880 And then you not only went to college, you went on to become a neurosurgeon.
00:22:30.600 Let's talk for a few minutes about the choice to become a neurosurgeon.
00:22:35.560 I actually, you know, have a, as you know, a PhD in neuroscience,
00:22:39.320 but I don't know too many neurosurgeons well.
00:22:43.360 I mean, I know a few, but in terms of actual friends who are neurosurgeons.
00:22:47.920 So what I know about the culture of neurosurgery is from the outside.
00:22:53.780 I remember reading this book a while back, When the Air Hits Your Brain.
00:22:58.120 I don't know if you've ever read this book by Vertisic.
00:23:00.120 You know, I don't know how faithfully he captures the culture,
00:23:03.580 but he really does paint the culture of neurosurgeons
00:23:06.780 as a kind of culture of gunslingers and frat boys.
00:23:11.560 It seems to be a specialty that selects for a kind of high testosterone arrogance.
00:23:18.500 And you and your, you know, certainly in your residency,
00:23:21.420 as you were, as your visualizations were actually working,
00:23:24.560 there was a fair amount of arrogance that came online for you.
00:23:27.380 So tell me what it was like to become a neurosurgeon
00:23:30.280 and how you view that field of expertise.
00:23:33.980 Well, I would say that over the last number of years,
00:23:38.320 that has changed somewhat.
00:23:42.480 But you're right.
00:23:45.140 I mean, this is a group of people
00:23:46.820 who are comfortable with somebody's life in their hands,
00:23:52.460 realizing that a false move can destroy someone's life.
00:23:56.260 And with that power, in some ways,
00:24:00.540 for many people comes a sense of arrogance
00:24:03.440 and a belief of infallibility.
00:24:07.320 And so, of course, the system selects for those types of people.
00:24:14.360 The other interesting thing about it is,
00:24:16.680 of course, not only do you have to be intelligent,
00:24:19.200 hopefully you have good judgment and technical abilities.
00:24:22.240 That's not always the case.
00:24:25.820 But the thing for many of these people is,
00:24:29.520 most decided they were going to be a neurosurgeon,
00:24:32.520 I mean, literally in high school or early in college.
00:24:37.100 And it was this driving force that made them want to be a neurosurgeon.
00:24:41.600 And my situation was quite a bit different
00:24:45.540 in that I was actually interested in plastic surgery,
00:24:50.040 specifically in caring for children who had craniofacial deformities.
00:24:53.700 And I thought being a neurosurgeon would be helpful for that.
00:24:58.880 I realized I wasn't that interested in general surgery,
00:25:02.520 which is usually the path to then do a fellowship in plastic surgery.
00:25:06.700 So I was, if you will, very late to the game.
00:25:11.460 And it was never a burning desire of mine
00:25:14.820 to be a neurosurgeon for the typical reasons.
00:25:18.280 So my view was somewhat different.
00:25:23.380 But I would also suggest it's an extraordinarily demanding specialty.
00:25:29.000 And I tell people,
00:25:30.740 if there is absolutely nothing else you can imagine yourself doing,
00:25:34.420 that's great, become a neurosurgeon.
00:25:35.840 Otherwise, if there's anything that interests you beyond that,
00:25:40.100 you should do that.
00:25:41.580 Because this is a lot of hours and hours of training.
00:25:45.460 I mean, neurosurgery is now seven years.
00:25:47.780 Certainly, if you're going into academics,
00:25:50.180 or many people just regardless do a fellowship
00:25:52.780 of one to two to three years.
00:25:55.120 So you're now 10 years down the road from college.
00:25:58.600 And it's a specialty that requires intense focus,
00:26:03.920 an immense amount of diligence,
00:26:06.640 and frankly, heartache.
00:26:09.480 Nothing is, you know, more painful
00:26:13.920 than to, you know, have to tell someone
00:26:17.040 that their loved one either is devastated,
00:26:19.740 didn't survive,
00:26:20.580 you weren't able to do what you were going to do.
00:26:22.940 Now, interestingly,
00:26:25.360 I know colleagues who,
00:26:28.520 for them,
00:26:29.260 those types of statements are
00:26:31.560 just another day at work.
00:26:34.660 And it's like, you know,
00:26:36.580 water on a duck's back.
00:26:38.060 For me,
00:26:39.020 I take it much more personally.
00:26:41.220 Yeah, I can hear.
00:26:44.700 So yeah,
00:26:45.120 I wanted to ask you about that,
00:26:46.980 because, you know,
00:26:47.580 obviously we're now getting to the topic of compassion.
00:26:51.520 And I was wondering how much your experience
00:26:54.260 as a surgeon,
00:26:56.180 which really,
00:26:57.220 again, from the outside,
00:26:58.120 I mean, any kind of surgeon,
00:26:59.080 but I think a neurosurgeon
00:27:00.620 is maybe the ultimate example of this.
00:27:03.640 And a pediatric neurosurgeon,
00:27:05.500 one of your,
00:27:06.300 the beginning of your memoir
00:27:07.600 puts us in the OR
00:27:09.160 where you're operating on
00:27:11.100 a brain tumor in a child.
00:27:14.020 I just can imagine
00:27:15.060 having those conversations
00:27:17.760 with parents,
00:27:20.460 you know,
00:27:20.840 who are understandably in extremis.
00:27:23.520 I mean,
00:27:23.680 this is the height of fear,
00:27:26.420 of uncertainty before surgery.
00:27:28.720 And obviously,
00:27:29.440 in those cases where it goes well,
00:27:31.800 that has to be a joy second to none.
00:27:34.540 But when it doesn't go well,
00:27:36.320 that has to be truly harrowing.
00:27:40.220 You just raised the topic
00:27:41.720 that I was wondering about.
00:27:43.100 If compassion,
00:27:44.620 and again,
00:27:44.940 we need to talk about compassion
00:27:46.560 and define it
00:27:47.560 and differentiate it
00:27:48.460 from other states of mind.
00:27:49.560 But before we get there,
00:27:51.220 I'm just wondering
00:27:51.720 if compassion is
00:27:53.280 the only tool you need
00:27:55.120 to navigate moments like that,
00:27:57.100 or if there's something,
00:27:59.580 you know,
00:28:00.200 less ideal.
00:28:01.240 I can imagine
00:28:01.900 there's almost a
00:28:03.220 kind of benevolent
00:28:05.640 or fortuitous psychopathy
00:28:07.740 that comes online
00:28:08.700 for many surgeons
00:28:09.760 where it's just like,
00:28:10.600 this is just the job, right?
00:28:12.760 You can't take this to heart
00:28:14.800 every time
00:28:16.040 or even generally
00:28:16.920 because this will destroy you
00:28:19.500 if you're moved around
00:28:21.060 too much
00:28:22.220 by the outcomes here.
00:28:25.320 And it sounds like
00:28:26.460 some surgeons
00:28:27.020 do this to a fault.
00:28:29.700 They're kind of checked out
00:28:30.840 emotionally
00:28:31.360 around the reality
00:28:33.140 of the situation
00:28:33.960 for the parents
00:28:34.700 or for the patients.
00:28:36.440 How do you view
00:28:37.000 the range of emotions
00:28:38.420 that are ideal
00:28:39.780 in this circumstance
00:28:41.100 and how do you
00:28:41.820 navigate that?
00:28:43.360 Well, it's interesting
00:28:44.660 because it is
00:28:46.480 a broad range.
00:28:48.340 There's a subset
00:28:49.300 of people
00:28:49.900 who, frankly,
00:28:51.920 may be on
00:28:52.460 the Asperger spectrum
00:28:53.880 who,
00:28:55.240 they're great technicians,
00:28:56.960 they know the literature,
00:28:58.820 et cetera, et cetera.
00:28:59.520 They have no
00:29:01.020 emotional connection
00:29:02.100 and it is a job
00:29:03.660 and they do the job
00:29:04.800 and then they're gone.
00:29:07.120 And of course,
00:29:08.280 if you're talking
00:29:08.740 about a doctor-patient
00:29:10.600 relationship,
00:29:11.920 there isn't one.
00:29:13.300 And I've even had people say,
00:29:14.600 well, I know he's not very nice
00:29:16.660 and he's abrupt
00:29:17.500 and brusque
00:29:18.200 and arrogant,
00:29:19.220 but he's a good surgeon.
00:29:20.500 Okay.
00:29:21.280 And then you have
00:29:22.340 the other extreme
00:29:24.940 where someone's
00:29:26.920 highly engaging,
00:29:28.000 very sensitive
00:29:29.160 and connected
00:29:29.980 and suffers
00:29:31.760 with you,
00:29:32.760 but the key
00:29:34.140 is to be able
00:29:35.220 to understand
00:29:37.120 the limits
00:29:38.540 of your abilities
00:29:39.560 and as long
00:29:41.240 as you
00:29:41.820 can tell yourself,
00:29:43.660 I prepared
00:29:44.600 and did the best
00:29:45.240 I can,
00:29:46.420 then there's no
00:29:47.480 more of a discussion.
00:29:48.620 That's all
00:29:49.100 you can do
00:29:49.940 and you're okay.
00:29:51.920 And I think
00:29:52.380 in my mind,
00:29:53.500 of course,
00:29:54.020 that would be
00:29:54.980 the ideal
00:29:56.180 situation
00:29:57.400 as in my book,
00:29:59.400 I talked about
00:30:00.200 a woman
00:30:01.200 who was an opera singer
00:30:02.300 who had an aneurysm
00:30:04.780 which is a dilatation
00:30:06.520 of a blood vessel
00:30:07.260 in the brain
00:30:07.700 near her speech area
00:30:08.680 and asked me
00:30:10.700 to operate on her
00:30:11.660 and by this time,
00:30:13.480 she had seen
00:30:14.280 a few other people,
00:30:15.360 we had become friends
00:30:16.280 and when I had
00:30:18.520 the aneurysm exposed
00:30:19.720 and really literally
00:30:21.720 it truly was about
00:30:22.820 to rupture,
00:30:23.480 you could see
00:30:23.900 the blood swirling
00:30:25.020 in the aneurysm
00:30:27.380 because it was so,
00:30:28.260 it was paper thin
00:30:29.280 and during that moment,
00:30:32.440 I started thinking
00:30:33.540 about her
00:30:34.260 versus the technical
00:30:37.240 aspects of
00:30:38.380 doing that job
00:30:39.820 and my hands
00:30:41.580 started shaking
00:30:42.320 to the point
00:30:43.020 where I had to stop
00:30:44.120 and actually
00:30:45.200 go into a meditation
00:30:46.720 to essentially
00:30:49.480 become a technician
00:30:51.380 and displace
00:30:53.460 my emotional
00:30:54.380 connection to her
00:30:55.900 out of the picture
00:30:57.020 and once I was able
00:30:58.600 to do that,
00:30:59.520 I was then able
00:31:01.080 to effectively
00:31:02.500 treat her
00:31:03.100 and she did fine
00:31:04.080 and that's really
00:31:05.460 one of the few instances
00:31:07.560 where connecting
00:31:09.340 with their humanity
00:31:10.480 does not allow you
00:31:12.760 to do your job
00:31:14.320 and that is
00:31:15.160 a job
00:31:15.820 of being a technician.
00:31:17.740 Well, let's talk about,
00:31:19.000 I think I do want
00:31:20.060 to touch on your,
00:31:22.000 kind of the other side
00:31:22.880 of your career
00:31:23.580 where you've been
00:31:25.180 an entrepreneur
00:31:25.720 and someone
00:31:26.840 who has, you know,
00:31:27.500 run a company
00:31:28.340 and had kind of
00:31:29.380 interesting adventures
00:31:31.440 in wealth
00:31:32.760 and philanthropy.
00:31:34.820 We'll jump to that
00:31:35.800 after we talk
00:31:36.920 about compassion
00:31:38.480 and how you came
00:31:39.700 to focus on it
00:31:40.560 and just what it is
00:31:42.040 and how did compassion
00:31:43.540 first become
00:31:44.600 a primary focus
00:31:45.960 of yours
00:31:46.440 and what is it?
00:31:47.860 How do you think
00:31:48.340 about it as a mental
00:31:49.820 state and capacity?
00:31:52.100 Well, on some level
00:31:53.520 I, it was always there.
00:31:56.380 I just didn't quite
00:31:58.020 understand what it meant
00:31:59.700 but what had happened
00:32:01.980 was at one point
00:32:03.240 I had left Stanford
00:32:05.220 and I had been
00:32:07.180 intermittently involved
00:32:08.100 with Stanford
00:32:08.600 since I think 97
00:32:09.900 but I had left
00:32:12.020 to run an
00:32:12.700 entrepreneurial company
00:32:13.720 then the dot-com
00:32:14.660 crisis came
00:32:15.520 and I used to
00:32:17.060 consult for setting up
00:32:18.260 if you will
00:32:18.820 neuroscience centers
00:32:19.580 of excellence
00:32:20.100 and went to a hospital
00:32:22.580 in Mississippi
00:32:23.360 and ultimately agreed
00:32:25.800 to actually go there
00:32:26.760 to build this program
00:32:27.840 for them
00:32:28.340 but during that time
00:32:30.860 I had an experience
00:32:33.100 with a child
00:32:35.020 who was not cared
00:32:36.600 for adequately
00:32:37.420 and as a result
00:32:38.300 had an infection
00:32:39.180 in his brain
00:32:40.020 and an abscess
00:32:40.820 and his parents
00:32:42.340 waited too long
00:32:44.060 to bring him in
00:32:44.940 and he,
00:32:46.580 even with my best efforts
00:32:47.880 he died
00:32:48.460 but it put me
00:32:49.580 into a period
00:32:50.220 of reflection
00:32:50.860 about all of these things
00:32:52.340 and when I went
00:32:53.880 back to Stanford
00:32:54.780 I decided to
00:32:56.580 explore this
00:32:57.640 a little more
00:32:58.560 and try to
00:32:59.700 understand it
00:33:00.560 and interestingly
00:33:02.460 when I initially
00:33:03.720 talked to my
00:33:04.560 colleagues
00:33:05.140 at Stanford
00:33:06.660 in psychology
00:33:08.020 and neuroscience
00:33:08.760 actually
00:33:10.360 I was told
00:33:12.060 that the academic
00:33:13.300 exploration
00:33:14.960 of compassion
00:33:16.220 was a dead end
00:33:17.780 and that if
00:33:18.820 anyone made that
00:33:20.660 the center
00:33:21.400 of their
00:33:22.140 academic endeavors
00:33:24.200 they were not
00:33:25.140 going to go
00:33:25.460 very far
00:33:26.100 the fortunate thing
00:33:28.040 was that I
00:33:29.000 had some
00:33:29.760 financial resources
00:33:30.900 which allowed me
00:33:32.300 to fund
00:33:32.860 what we initially
00:33:33.860 called Project
00:33:34.620 Compassion
00:33:35.360 which brought
00:33:36.340 a group
00:33:36.740 of psychologists
00:33:37.960 and neuroscientists
00:33:39.500 together
00:33:39.860 and we started
00:33:41.140 a journal club
00:33:41.900 looking at the
00:33:42.480 literature
00:33:42.840 and then did
00:33:43.780 some studies
00:33:44.500 and really
00:33:45.660 it was evident
00:33:46.680 that actually
00:33:48.340 these practices
00:33:49.140 or if you will
00:33:51.360 the nature
00:33:51.920 of compassion
00:33:52.640 was quite
00:33:53.460 profound
00:33:54.620 in regard
00:33:55.360 to how it
00:33:56.780 affects
00:33:58.060 your emotional
00:33:59.600 state
00:34:00.060 how it can
00:34:00.640 affect your
00:34:01.100 physiology
00:34:01.640 and a whole
00:34:03.180 variety
00:34:04.140 of both
00:34:04.620 brain
00:34:05.080 and
00:34:05.640 peripheral
00:34:06.580 physiology
00:34:07.260 measures
00:34:07.820 and this
00:34:09.300 led to the
00:34:09.960 creation
00:34:10.280 ultimately
00:34:10.800 of a
00:34:11.220 compassion
00:34:11.660 cultivation
00:34:12.200 training
00:34:12.900 program
00:34:13.860 which we
00:34:14.340 did some
00:34:14.740 studies on
00:34:15.520 and also
00:34:16.800 I think
00:34:18.220 led to some
00:34:19.060 interesting
00:34:19.540 studies
00:34:20.140 and then
00:34:21.960 of course
00:34:22.620 over time
00:34:24.060 and I think
00:34:25.220 if you look
00:34:25.680 over the last
00:34:26.260 12 to 15
00:34:27.880 years
00:34:28.280 this idea
00:34:29.000 of the
00:34:29.880 importance
00:34:30.260 of compassion
00:34:31.160 combined
00:34:32.280 with our
00:34:32.820 already
00:34:33.460 significant
00:34:34.420 interest
00:34:34.780 in mindfulness
00:34:35.380 practices
00:34:36.140 really is
00:34:37.460 one of the
00:34:38.060 things that
00:34:38.600 are at the
00:34:39.340 forefront
00:34:39.700 I mean
00:34:40.220 years and
00:34:40.740 years ago
00:34:41.180 when we
00:34:42.060 started this
00:34:42.760 you would
00:34:44.260 talk about
00:34:44.700 compassion
00:34:45.280 and for
00:34:45.640 many people
00:34:46.280 it was
00:34:46.540 completely
00:34:46.960 poo-pooed
00:34:47.540 especially
00:34:47.860 by the
00:34:48.240 corporate
00:34:48.500 community
00:34:49.040 because it's
00:34:50.160 looked as
00:34:50.660 a form
00:34:51.000 of weakness
00:34:51.580 you know
00:34:52.300 people run
00:34:52.880 over you
00:34:53.360 if you're
00:34:53.700 too nice
00:34:54.260 if you're
00:34:54.620 compassionate
00:34:55.180 and I
00:34:56.260 think now
00:34:56.800 people recognize
00:34:57.980 that it is
00:34:59.160 in fact
00:34:59.680 extraordinarily
00:35:00.540 powerful
00:35:01.200 yeah so
00:35:02.520 let's talk
00:35:03.180 about what
00:35:03.620 the mental
00:35:04.320 state is
00:35:05.020 because it's
00:35:05.380 often conflated
00:35:06.760 with empathy
00:35:07.900 and sympathy
00:35:09.640 and pity
00:35:10.980 and it
00:35:13.140 needs to be
00:35:13.680 differentiated
00:35:14.320 even from
00:35:14.860 something that's
00:35:15.500 integral to it
00:35:16.740 something like
00:35:17.520 loving kindness
00:35:18.720 it also gets
00:35:19.660 operationalized
00:35:20.520 differently in
00:35:21.040 different studies
00:35:21.680 so that the
00:35:22.420 neuroscience
00:35:22.900 as far as I
00:35:24.160 can tell
00:35:24.440 is still a
00:35:24.840 little fuzzy
00:35:25.320 because
00:35:25.800 some studies
00:35:27.520 they're done
00:35:28.960 in irreconcilable
00:35:29.960 ways
00:35:30.340 I mean
00:35:30.520 some ask
00:35:31.560 people just
00:35:32.080 to generate
00:35:32.720 the state
00:35:33.240 of loving
00:35:33.560 kindness
00:35:33.940 essentially
00:35:34.420 without any
00:35:35.620 stimuli
00:35:36.020 and then some
00:35:36.700 present subjects
00:35:37.680 with images
00:35:38.160 of human
00:35:39.280 suffering
00:35:39.700 to which
00:35:40.560 they respond
00:35:41.920 and so
00:35:42.780 I think
00:35:44.380 that at least
00:35:45.360 in my view
00:35:46.000 the generic
00:35:46.740 definition
00:35:47.740 of compassion
00:35:48.340 is loving
00:35:50.280 kindness
00:35:50.800 in the
00:35:51.480 presence
00:35:51.880 of suffering
00:35:52.740 where
00:35:52.980 human
00:35:54.680 suffering
00:35:55.160 or animal
00:35:55.640 suffering
00:35:56.060 is taken
00:35:57.340 as its
00:35:57.820 object
00:35:58.260 and
00:35:58.980 it
00:35:59.640 includes
00:36:00.360 this
00:36:00.920 desire
00:36:01.500 this
00:36:01.800 motivation
00:36:02.320 to
00:36:02.620 alleviate
00:36:03.160 the
00:36:03.800 suffering
00:36:04.140 of others
00:36:04.740 it has a few
00:36:05.800 things bundled
00:36:06.600 in here
00:36:06.920 it's directly
00:36:07.580 cognizant
00:36:08.420 of suffering
00:36:09.480 so it has a
00:36:10.940 kind of
00:36:11.240 cognitive
00:36:11.760 empathy
00:36:12.240 but it
00:36:13.580 doesn't have
00:36:14.400 the same
00:36:14.740 kind of
00:36:15.100 emotional
00:36:15.520 contagion
00:36:16.160 it's not
00:36:16.500 like you're
00:36:16.900 sad
00:36:17.440 when the
00:36:18.520 object of
00:36:19.020 your
00:36:19.260 compassion
00:36:20.220 is sad
00:36:20.780 or you're
00:36:21.240 depressed
00:36:21.700 when the
00:36:22.080 object of
00:36:22.540 your
00:36:22.660 compassion
00:36:23.080 is depressed
00:36:23.860 it's a
00:36:24.740 highly
00:36:25.260 pro-social
00:36:26.180 and even
00:36:27.500 positive
00:36:28.120 emotion
00:36:28.600 it's not
00:36:29.400 morbid
00:36:30.020 it's not
00:36:30.440 a state
00:36:31.460 of collapse
00:36:32.680 you're not
00:36:33.200 feeling
00:36:33.880 diminished
00:36:35.040 psychologically
00:36:36.260 by proximity
00:36:37.160 to the
00:36:37.960 suffering
00:36:38.220 of others
00:36:38.660 in fact
00:36:39.380 it's an
00:36:39.700 expansive
00:36:40.300 state
00:36:40.960 that has
00:36:41.880 the feeling
00:36:42.420 tone
00:36:42.820 of loving
00:36:43.480 kindness
00:36:43.940 but it
00:36:44.960 has this
00:36:45.440 extra
00:36:46.040 topspin
00:36:47.160 of wanting
00:36:48.600 to respond
00:36:49.520 to the
00:36:50.440 suffering
00:36:50.740 of others
00:36:51.220 by alleviating
00:36:52.220 that suffering
00:36:53.060 does that
00:36:53.560 make sense
00:36:54.280 yeah I think
00:36:55.080 you're exactly
00:36:55.500 right
00:36:55.800 I think
00:36:56.520 you know
00:36:56.980 if you were
00:36:57.260 to make
00:36:57.600 a graph
00:36:59.200 and you put
00:36:59.740 agency
00:37:00.340 and effort
00:37:00.960 on one
00:37:01.700 and you put
00:37:02.340 understanding
00:37:02.960 and engagement
00:37:03.480 on the other
00:37:04.040 sort of in the
00:37:05.440 downward left
00:37:06.860 corner
00:37:07.380 would be pity
00:37:08.160 and this is
00:37:09.280 I'm sorry
00:37:09.920 for you
00:37:10.560 or
00:37:10.920 and it's
00:37:12.200 invariably
00:37:12.800 related to
00:37:13.580 I'm superior
00:37:14.380 to you
00:37:15.040 I appreciate
00:37:16.280 your situation
00:37:17.800 it has
00:37:18.440 nothing to do
00:37:19.040 with
00:37:19.360 empathy
00:37:20.820 or anything
00:37:21.580 else
00:37:22.000 it simply
00:37:22.540 has to do
00:37:23.140 with your
00:37:23.440 recognizing it
00:37:24.400 and it
00:37:25.420 you know
00:37:25.980 you feel bad
00:37:26.740 for them
00:37:27.140 but doesn't
00:37:28.020 imply you're
00:37:29.120 going to do
00:37:29.580 anything
00:37:29.960 for them
00:37:31.220 while
00:37:31.700 sympathy
00:37:32.960 is
00:37:34.660 less than
00:37:36.200 empathy
00:37:36.560 it's
00:37:37.020 I
00:37:37.300 on a
00:37:37.880 cognitive
00:37:38.280 level
00:37:38.700 if you
00:37:39.080 will
00:37:39.400 understand
00:37:40.820 that you're
00:37:41.700 in pain
00:37:42.740 and I
00:37:43.200 feel for
00:37:43.960 you
00:37:44.260 but it
00:37:45.520 requires
00:37:46.080 no
00:37:46.420 agency
00:37:47.080 per se
00:37:47.900 while
00:37:49.180 empathy
00:37:49.760 is actually
00:37:51.340 you know
00:37:52.000 taking on
00:37:52.660 the
00:37:53.000 emotional
00:37:53.820 state
00:37:55.120 of another
00:37:55.940 but it
00:37:57.820 has no
00:37:58.180 valence
00:37:58.700 it can
00:37:59.220 you can
00:37:59.980 have
00:38:00.120 empathic
00:38:00.660 joy
00:38:01.040 and that
00:38:02.440 can feel
00:38:02.800 very good
00:38:03.480 or
00:38:03.860 as
00:38:04.920 Mathieu Ricard
00:38:05.760 will describe
00:38:06.840 who's a
00:38:07.420 Buddhist monk
00:38:07.980 who I'm
00:38:08.460 sure you
00:38:08.700 probably
00:38:09.120 know
00:38:09.580 he says
00:38:10.740 when
00:38:11.040 you know
00:38:11.420 I take
00:38:11.960 on pain
00:38:12.860 and feel
00:38:14.220 for the
00:38:14.640 other's
00:38:15.060 pain
00:38:15.520 it is
00:38:16.500 so painful
00:38:17.120 to myself
00:38:17.940 that I
00:38:18.500 can barely
00:38:19.280 stand it
00:38:20.020 compassion
00:38:20.940 is different
00:38:21.900 in the sense
00:38:22.480 that it
00:38:23.580 is associated
00:38:24.660 with suffering
00:38:25.300 it requires
00:38:26.120 your take
00:38:26.500 on that
00:38:26.820 emotional
00:38:27.200 state
00:38:27.600 but
00:38:28.020 you have
00:38:29.380 a very
00:38:29.820 strong
00:38:30.320 motivational
00:38:31.140 desire
00:38:31.880 to alleviate
00:38:32.600 that
00:38:33.000 suffering
00:38:33.500 and I
00:38:34.400 think
00:38:34.540 that's
00:38:35.020 really
00:38:35.860 the key
00:38:36.420 there
00:38:36.820 is that
00:38:38.100 you are
00:38:38.780 motivated
00:38:39.620 to alleviate
00:38:40.760 that
00:38:41.100 suffering
00:38:41.440 now
00:38:41.660 interestingly
00:38:42.240 Jamil
00:38:43.120 Zaki
00:38:43.540 who wrote
00:38:44.000 a book
00:38:44.280 on kindness
00:38:44.960 recently
00:38:45.540 says
00:38:46.840 empathy
00:38:47.360 is the
00:38:48.380 same as
00:38:48.720 compassion
00:38:49.240 or he
00:38:49.580 uses them
00:38:50.200 interchangeably
00:38:51.200 he and I
00:38:51.640 have had
00:38:51.920 some
00:38:52.140 discussions
00:38:53.460 about that
00:38:54.240 but
00:38:54.560 I think
00:38:55.800 some people
00:38:56.340 do have
00:38:56.900 a tendency
00:38:57.280 to use
00:38:57.880 that
00:38:58.160 but
00:38:58.420 I would
00:38:59.140 not
00:38:59.320 use
00:38:59.520 it
00:38:59.640 that
00:38:59.840 way
00:39:00.060 yeah
00:39:01.020 the terminology
00:39:01.760 here is
00:39:02.440 uncertain
00:39:03.140 enough
00:39:03.500 that even
00:39:03.980 my friend
00:39:05.160 Paul Bloom
00:39:05.680 could write
00:39:06.040 a book
00:39:06.380 against
00:39:06.920 empathy
00:39:07.400 differentiating
00:39:08.640 two different
00:39:09.140 types of
00:39:09.580 empathy
00:39:09.880 one of which
00:39:10.600 I agree
00:39:11.600 with him
00:39:11.920 is not
00:39:12.420 a good
00:39:12.900 guide
00:39:13.340 for moral
00:39:14.080 deliberation
00:39:15.140 which is
00:39:15.680 again
00:39:16.280 just more
00:39:16.940 this pure
00:39:17.480 emotional
00:39:17.940 contagion
00:39:18.680 side of
00:39:19.680 it
00:39:19.800 which is
00:39:20.340 just being
00:39:21.420 taken in
00:39:22.240 by suffering
00:39:23.680 and feeling
00:39:25.000 it as
00:39:25.640 your own
00:39:26.180 but in a
00:39:26.680 way that is
00:39:27.340 causing you
00:39:28.380 to actually
00:39:29.120 not be
00:39:30.180 able to
00:39:31.400 respond
00:39:31.820 effectively
00:39:32.320 or even
00:39:32.760 think
00:39:33.140 rationally
00:39:33.840 about what
00:39:34.260 would help
00:39:34.780 you know
00:39:35.300 their problem
00:39:35.820 has become
00:39:36.200 your problem
00:39:36.820 and you know
00:39:37.600 you're
00:39:38.140 you're yet
00:39:38.700 another drowning
00:39:39.320 person
00:39:39.820 who doesn't
00:39:40.700 know how to
00:39:41.020 swim
00:39:41.280 and needs
00:39:41.660 to be
00:39:41.880 rescued
00:39:42.180 yes
00:39:42.900 so then
00:39:43.780 how did
00:39:44.140 you get
00:39:45.180 connected
00:39:45.740 with
00:39:46.260 the Dalai
00:39:47.000 Lama
00:39:47.260 and other
00:39:47.800 Buddhists
00:39:48.720 in this
00:39:49.140 vein
00:39:49.800 yeah
00:39:50.820 so
00:39:52.260 and this
00:39:53.160 may sound
00:39:54.480 like magical
00:39:55.100 thinking
00:39:55.620 and I hate
00:39:57.080 to do that
00:39:57.560 to you
00:39:57.900 I was
00:39:58.660 involved in
00:39:59.720 this work
00:40:00.300 with these
00:40:00.760 scientists
00:40:01.220 and we
00:40:03.260 had begun
00:40:03.680 some initial
00:40:04.220 research studies
00:40:05.300 and we
00:40:06.680 were thinking
00:40:07.180 about having
00:40:07.660 a conference
00:40:08.220 and I was
00:40:09.280 walking through
00:40:09.960 the Stanford
00:40:10.520 campus one
00:40:11.440 day
00:40:11.720 and again
00:40:14.240 literally
00:40:14.780 an image
00:40:16.200 of the
00:40:16.480 Dalai Lama
00:40:17.040 came into
00:40:17.600 my head
00:40:18.160 and frankly
00:40:20.840 I had zero
00:40:21.880 interest in the
00:40:22.540 Dalai Lama
00:40:23.160 per se
00:40:24.120 and more
00:40:25.480 interestingly
00:40:25.960 my wife
00:40:26.680 was a huge
00:40:27.260 fan
00:40:27.640 and in fact
00:40:28.280 she had
00:40:29.520 bought tickets
00:40:30.160 for us
00:40:30.580 to go
00:40:30.980 to an
00:40:31.300 event
00:40:31.720 and I
00:40:32.520 actually
00:40:32.800 refused
00:40:33.240 to go
00:40:33.740 because
00:40:34.220 it didn't
00:40:34.980 interest me
00:40:35.600 but for
00:40:36.480 some reason
00:40:37.220 this image
00:40:38.540 stayed in
00:40:38.920 my head
00:40:39.540 and I
00:40:41.020 decided
00:40:41.760 that
00:40:42.260 it would
00:40:43.360 be good
00:40:43.800 to
00:40:44.260 invite
00:40:45.340 the Dalai
00:40:45.840 Lama
00:40:46.120 to this
00:40:46.700 conference
00:40:47.200 that we
00:40:47.900 were thinking
00:40:48.300 about doing
00:40:49.000 and he
00:40:50.120 had been
00:40:50.360 at Stanford
00:40:50.840 once
00:40:51.280 previously
00:40:51.960 discussing
00:40:53.620 addiction
00:40:54.300 and craving
00:40:54.920 and I
00:40:56.340 tracked down
00:40:56.920 the person
00:40:57.720 in Buddhist
00:40:58.100 studies
00:40:58.480 who had
00:40:59.080 invited him
00:40:59.960 and then
00:41:01.120 connected
00:41:01.700 him to
00:41:02.820 one of
00:41:03.440 his holiness's
00:41:04.860 translators
00:41:06.080 who had a
00:41:07.520 PhD from
00:41:08.100 Cambridge
00:41:08.560 and
00:41:09.800 this former
00:41:11.420 monk
00:41:11.800 and
00:41:12.340 is that
00:41:13.200 Tipton
00:41:13.800 Jempa
00:41:14.040 exactly
00:41:14.540 yes
00:41:15.240 and
00:41:16.000 Jempa
00:41:17.260 then
00:41:17.660 arranged
00:41:18.720 for this
00:41:19.500 meeting
00:41:19.860 and
00:41:20.720 so at
00:41:22.200 this
00:41:22.420 meeting
00:41:22.820 and
00:41:23.180 it's
00:41:23.680 always
00:41:23.860 interesting
00:41:24.200 how
00:41:24.460 things
00:41:24.860 go
00:41:25.540 because
00:41:26.140 it was
00:41:26.860 just
00:41:27.100 me
00:41:27.400 with
00:41:27.620 this
00:41:27.820 idea
00:41:28.360 but
00:41:29.160 when
00:41:29.320 I
00:41:29.440 was
00:41:29.560 meeting
00:41:29.760 with
00:41:29.940 the
00:41:30.060 Dalai
00:41:30.360 Lama
00:41:30.700 we
00:41:31.840 had
00:41:31.960 the
00:41:32.080 dean
00:41:32.220 of
00:41:32.340 the
00:41:32.460 medical
00:41:32.740 school
00:41:33.420 the
00:41:34.300 associate
00:41:34.700 dean
00:41:35.400 you know
00:41:36.120 it
00:41:36.600 became
00:41:37.000 an
00:41:37.200 entourage
00:41:37.820 and
00:41:39.400 we
00:41:40.480 met
00:41:40.700 with
00:41:40.940 him
00:41:41.220 and
00:41:42.340 his
00:41:43.180 holiness
00:41:43.500 as
00:41:44.520 you
00:41:44.720 know
00:41:45.240 was
00:41:45.540 very
00:41:45.740 interested
00:41:46.020 in
00:41:46.220 neuroscience
00:41:46.760 and
00:41:47.960 was
00:41:48.420 very
00:41:48.680 very
00:41:48.900 interested
00:41:49.240 in
00:41:49.460 this
00:41:49.640 topic
00:41:50.060 and
00:41:51.100 was
00:41:51.340 immediately
00:41:51.720 engaged
00:41:52.280 in our
00:41:52.520 15
00:41:52.920 minute
00:41:53.220 conversation
00:41:54.180 that was
00:41:55.300 scheduled
00:41:55.640 ended up
00:41:56.080 being an
00:41:56.380 hour and
00:41:56.700 a half
00:41:57.020 and
00:41:58.040 at the
00:41:58.860 end
00:41:59.120 of it
00:41:59.380 he
00:41:59.540 began
00:41:59.940 a very
00:42:00.260 animated
00:42:00.620 conversation
00:42:01.300 with
00:42:01.680 Upton
00:42:01.940 Jempa
00:42:02.420 and
00:42:03.620 I
00:42:04.760 thought
00:42:05.100 actually
00:42:05.480 I
00:42:05.620 somehow
00:42:05.960 irritated
00:42:06.720 or
00:42:07.160 made
00:42:08.400 the
00:42:08.540 Dalai
00:42:08.760 Lama
00:42:08.960 angry
00:42:09.380 which
00:42:09.680 of course
00:42:10.040 is a
00:42:10.460 very
00:42:10.680 embarrassing
00:42:11.200 thing
00:42:11.500 to do
00:42:12.340 that
00:42:12.600 would be
00:42:13.040 a feat
00:42:13.580 I would
00:42:14.960 take that
00:42:15.260 as a
00:42:15.480 feather
00:42:15.660 in your
00:42:15.900 cap
00:42:16.220 to accomplish
00:42:17.360 it
00:42:17.500 although I
00:42:18.500 have seen
00:42:19.020 him angry
00:42:19.600 but at the
00:42:21.220 end of this
00:42:21.700 animated dialogue
00:42:23.120 Jempa turned to
00:42:24.340 me and he
00:42:24.940 said
00:42:25.240 his holiness
00:42:27.180 is so moved
00:42:28.020 by this
00:42:29.420 effort that he
00:42:30.180 wants to make
00:42:30.680 a contribution
00:42:31.360 and at that
00:42:32.680 moment he
00:42:33.520 made the
00:42:34.940 largest
00:42:35.740 donation to
00:42:36.600 a non-Tibetan
00:42:37.320 cause he
00:42:37.860 had ever
00:42:38.880 made
00:42:39.300 which shocked
00:42:40.840 everyone
00:42:42.140 there
00:42:42.520 and I
00:42:43.160 was quite
00:42:43.700 overwhelmed
00:42:44.300 and moved
00:42:44.800 myself
00:42:45.380 and then
00:42:46.780 shortly
00:42:47.460 thereafter
00:42:47.960 two other
00:42:48.540 individuals
00:42:49.040 made
00:42:49.480 significant
00:42:50.060 donations
00:42:50.660 and that
00:42:52.440 actually
00:42:53.000 created the
00:42:53.800 center
00:42:54.120 nice
00:42:55.140 nice
00:42:55.420 and how
00:42:55.840 much time
00:42:56.200 have you
00:42:56.420 spent
00:42:56.680 around him
00:42:57.400 since
00:42:58.160 have you
00:42:58.540 met him
00:42:59.220 on multiple
00:42:59.700 occasions
00:43:00.100 yes
00:43:00.640 actually
00:43:01.220 many
00:43:02.100 occasions
00:43:02.640 in different
00:43:03.240 parts of
00:43:03.720 the world
00:43:04.120 I've spent
00:43:04.640 time with
00:43:05.160 him
00:43:05.360 and have
00:43:05.740 chatted
00:43:06.420 with him
00:43:06.960 ultimately
00:43:07.960 I also
00:43:08.920 became
00:43:10.100 chairman
00:43:10.480 of the
00:43:10.820 Dalai Lama
00:43:11.320 foundation
00:43:11.900 for several
00:43:12.580 years
00:43:12.960 so I
00:43:14.340 was
00:43:14.640 fairly
00:43:15.420 involved
00:43:16.380 with him
00:43:17.020 and
00:43:17.860 it's
00:43:18.540 interesting
00:43:18.940 because
00:43:19.840 we're
00:43:21.100 talking about
00:43:21.440 emotional
00:43:21.820 states
00:43:22.320 I can
00:43:23.140 understand
00:43:23.740 why
00:43:24.300 people
00:43:24.840 want to
00:43:25.760 be near
00:43:26.460 him
00:43:26.780 and
00:43:27.920 in some
00:43:28.780 ways
00:43:29.240 it's
00:43:30.180 like
00:43:30.620 what
00:43:30.900 Ruth
00:43:31.220 offered
00:43:31.720 me
00:43:32.020 which
00:43:32.500 is
00:43:33.060 unconditional
00:43:34.840 acceptance
00:43:35.840 and love
00:43:36.940 without
00:43:37.300 qualification
00:43:38.400 and
00:43:40.000 very
00:43:40.720 few
00:43:41.120 people
00:43:41.740 actually
00:43:43.140 give
00:43:44.180 that
00:43:44.460 out
00:43:44.880 in
00:43:45.180 an
00:43:45.700 interaction
00:43:46.100 with
00:43:46.380 them
00:43:46.600 and
00:43:47.180 when
00:43:47.340 you're
00:43:47.600 in
00:43:47.800 his
00:43:48.020 presence
00:43:48.700 what
00:43:49.380 I
00:43:49.520 tell
00:43:49.740 people
00:43:50.160 is
00:43:50.580 that
00:43:51.060 in
00:43:52.500 modern
00:43:52.860 society
00:43:53.540 which
00:43:53.840 is
00:43:54.000 different
00:43:54.340 than
00:43:54.580 how
00:43:54.820 we
00:43:55.000 lived
00:43:55.320 a few
00:43:55.620 hundred
00:43:55.860 years
00:43:56.180 ago
00:43:56.460 a few
00:43:56.780 hundred
00:43:57.020 years
00:43:57.300 ago
00:43:57.540 we
00:43:57.760 lived
00:43:57.960 in a
00:43:58.180 village
00:43:58.600 we
00:43:59.600 typically
00:44:00.140 had
00:44:01.420 multi
00:44:01.860 generations
00:44:02.560 in the
00:44:02.960 village
00:44:03.320 everyone
00:44:03.700 knew
00:44:04.020 you
00:44:04.200 from
00:44:04.380 the
00:44:04.500 time
00:44:04.720 you
00:44:04.840 were
00:44:04.900 a
00:44:05.020 child
00:44:05.280 to
00:44:05.420 growing
00:44:05.680 up
00:44:05.980 you
00:44:06.880 didn't
00:44:07.100 move
00:44:07.360 away
00:44:07.780 you
00:44:08.400 had
00:44:08.580 incredible
00:44:09.080 support
00:44:09.540 system
00:44:10.000 you
00:44:10.220 had
00:44:10.460 a
00:44:10.740 community
00:44:11.300 and
00:44:12.060 that
00:44:12.240 community
00:44:12.720 is
00:44:13.740 extraordinarily
00:44:14.300 important
00:44:14.920 to your
00:44:15.360 mental
00:44:15.640 and physical
00:44:16.260 health
00:44:16.660 I think
00:44:17.100 and
00:44:18.040 in
00:44:18.940 modern
00:44:19.200 society
00:44:19.600 we don't
00:44:19.900 have
00:44:20.080 that
00:44:20.220 at
00:44:20.360 all
00:44:20.640 you
00:44:21.200 don't
00:44:21.360 have
00:44:21.540 your
00:44:21.700 parents
00:44:22.240 around
00:44:22.600 you
00:44:22.780 don't
00:44:22.920 have
00:44:23.100 your
00:44:23.240 siblings
00:44:23.600 you
00:44:23.880 don't
00:44:24.020 have
00:44:24.260 loved
00:44:24.520 ones
00:44:24.880 in
00:44:25.620 proximity
00:44:26.200 and
00:44:27.180 so
00:44:27.400 as a
00:44:27.740 result
00:44:28.060 we
00:44:28.440 have
00:44:28.680 a
00:44:28.880 tendency
00:44:29.320 to
00:44:30.080 create
00:44:31.260 these
00:44:31.580 shields
00:44:31.940 that
00:44:32.120 we
00:44:32.280 carry
00:44:32.640 around
00:44:33.140 which
00:44:33.900 are
00:44:34.120 the
00:44:34.240 ones
00:44:34.500 that
00:44:34.640 say
00:44:34.860 I'm
00:44:35.560 this
00:44:35.860 I'm
00:44:36.140 that
00:44:36.360 I've
00:44:36.600 accomplished
00:44:37.040 this
00:44:37.660 etc
00:44:38.380 etc
00:44:38.760 etc
00:44:39.200 but
00:44:39.620 there's
00:44:40.480 no
00:44:40.680 true
00:44:41.000 authenticity
00:44:41.680 that is
00:44:42.600 ever
00:44:42.880 released
00:44:43.760 and
00:44:44.080 when
00:44:44.840 you're
00:44:45.000 with
00:44:45.180 somebody
00:44:45.440 like
00:44:45.700 the
00:44:45.880 Dalai
00:44:46.200 Lama
00:44:46.560 you
00:44:47.700 know
00:44:47.940 immediately
00:44:48.540 that
00:44:49.500 you
00:44:50.360 are
00:44:50.560 unconditionally
00:44:51.460 accepted
00:44:52.180 and
00:44:52.740 loved
00:44:53.160 and
00:44:54.000 it's
00:44:54.340 really
00:44:54.540 quite
00:44:54.920 profound
00:44:55.500 because
00:44:56.060 when
00:44:56.600 that
00:44:56.820 happens
00:44:57.360 it's
00:44:58.060 almost
00:44:58.320 as if
00:44:58.740 this
00:44:58.940 weight
00:44:59.300 is
00:44:59.520 lifted
00:44:59.860 off
00:45:00.200 of
00:45:00.400 you
00:45:00.600 and
00:45:01.220 this
00:45:01.420 natural
00:45:01.860 joy
00:45:02.480 and
00:45:02.920 exuberance
00:45:03.780 about
00:45:04.140 being
00:45:04.640 alive
00:45:05.080 in
00:45:05.260 some
00:45:05.520 ways
00:45:05.880 is
00:45:06.760 released
00:45:07.280 and
00:45:07.680 so
00:45:08.080 I
00:45:09.020 think
00:45:09.440 you
00:45:10.220 know
00:45:10.320 when
00:45:10.460 you
00:45:10.580 look
00:45:10.780 at
00:45:10.920 people
00:45:11.460 who
00:45:11.880 strive
00:45:12.620 to
00:45:12.820 be
00:45:13.000 near
00:45:13.420 these
00:45:13.700 types
00:45:14.000 of
00:45:14.160 individuals
00:45:14.760 you
00:45:15.840 can
00:45:16.060 perfectly
00:45:16.560 understand
00:45:18.120 why
00:45:18.480 yeah
00:45:19.500 it is
00:45:20.000 still
00:45:20.860 somewhat
00:45:21.200 mysterious
00:45:21.900 to
00:45:22.480 explain
00:45:23.220 but
00:45:23.480 it is
00:45:23.920 it's
00:45:24.880 a genuine
00:45:25.380 phenomenon
00:45:26.360 I have
00:45:27.080 spent
00:45:27.940 a lot
00:45:28.660 of time
00:45:29.160 with
00:45:29.840 great
00:45:30.300 meditation
00:45:30.800 masters
00:45:31.280 and
00:45:31.780 you know
00:45:32.140 I spent
00:45:32.420 some
00:45:33.000 considerable
00:45:33.760 time
00:45:34.280 albeit
00:45:34.960 briefly
00:45:35.740 focused
00:45:36.200 over the
00:45:36.540 course
00:45:36.740 of a
00:45:37.020 month
00:45:37.300 with
00:45:37.680 the
00:45:38.200 Dalai
00:45:38.440 Lama
00:45:38.660 I met
00:45:39.640 him
00:45:39.740 on a
00:45:40.300 number
00:45:40.600 of
00:45:40.720 occasions
00:45:41.020 but
00:45:41.240 I
00:45:41.400 strangely
00:45:42.200 got to
00:45:43.060 be
00:45:43.220 one
00:45:43.440 of his
00:45:43.660 bodyguards
00:45:44.480 for a
00:45:45.360 trip
00:45:46.340 through
00:45:46.580 France
00:45:47.060 so
00:45:49.020 he
00:45:49.240 was
00:45:49.920 on
00:45:50.500 a
00:45:50.640 teaching
00:45:51.240 tour
00:45:51.560 of
00:45:51.740 France
00:45:52.140 and
00:45:52.760 for
00:45:53.240 whatever
00:45:53.500 reason
00:45:53.820 I
00:45:54.160 got
00:45:54.360 to
00:45:54.520 be
00:45:54.740 part
00:45:55.060 of
00:45:55.140 the
00:45:55.320 Buddhist
00:45:56.240 retinue
00:45:56.840 that
00:45:57.040 was
00:45:57.340 the
00:45:57.980 buffer
00:45:58.360 between
00:45:58.820 the
00:45:59.140 real
00:45:59.400 security
00:45:59.860 guards
00:46:00.300 when he's
00:46:01.060 in
00:46:01.200 France
00:46:01.500 he
00:46:01.640 got
00:46:01.840 their
00:46:04.200 version
00:46:04.660 of
00:46:04.800 secret
00:46:05.020 service
00:46:05.460 protection
00:46:05.960 something
00:46:06.760 he
00:46:07.000 did
00:46:07.280 not
00:46:07.440 get
00:46:07.640 in
00:46:07.740 the
00:46:07.820 United
00:46:08.040 States
00:46:08.380 so
00:46:09.040 there
00:46:09.160 were
00:46:09.220 four
00:46:09.580 guys
00:46:09.880 with
00:46:10.060 guns
00:46:10.420 who
00:46:10.640 were
00:46:10.820 really
00:46:11.360 protecting
00:46:11.760 him
00:46:11.940 but
00:46:12.060 then
00:46:12.160 there
00:46:12.240 was
00:46:12.360 this
00:46:12.540 buffer
00:46:12.900 of
00:46:13.520 students
00:46:14.860 of
00:46:15.160 meditation
00:46:15.660 and
00:46:16.040 people
00:46:16.620 who
00:46:16.800 sat
00:46:17.340 three
00:46:17.800 year
00:46:18.040 retreats
00:46:18.640 in
00:46:18.940 France
00:46:19.680 with
00:46:20.340 various
00:46:20.640 lamas
00:46:21.000 and
00:46:21.580 there
00:46:22.240 were
00:46:22.300 maybe
00:46:22.440 12
00:46:22.880 of
00:46:23.080 us
00:46:23.320 and
00:46:24.160 ironically
00:46:24.660 we had
00:46:25.500 the most
00:46:25.820 conflict
00:46:26.280 with the
00:46:26.640 general
00:46:26.860 public
00:46:27.240 because
00:46:27.520 we were
00:46:27.920 the buffer
00:46:28.400 between
00:46:28.820 the real
00:46:29.560 bodyguards
00:46:30.140 and
00:46:30.500 the public
00:46:31.380 it was
00:46:32.240 a surreal
00:46:32.680 experience
00:46:33.280 to walk
00:46:33.820 into
00:46:33.980 a room
00:46:34.460 more or
00:46:35.840 less
00:46:36.140 continually
00:46:37.320 focused
00:46:37.820 on
00:46:38.160 what
00:46:38.420 could
00:46:38.580 go
00:46:38.800 wrong
00:46:39.280 who
00:46:40.000 was
00:46:40.300 untrustworthy
00:46:41.080 just
00:46:41.720 basically
00:46:42.120 radiating
00:46:42.820 bad
00:46:43.260 vibes
00:46:43.720 of
00:46:44.040 suspicion
00:46:45.340 everywhere
00:46:46.200 and
00:46:47.340 to have
00:46:48.260 over your
00:46:49.040 shoulder
00:46:49.420 the Dalai
00:46:50.200 Lama
00:46:50.420 beaming
00:46:51.060 unconditional
00:46:52.120 acceptance
00:46:52.820 and love
00:46:53.520 and
00:46:53.760 just
00:46:54.420 general
00:46:54.900 ease
00:46:55.400 and
00:46:56.040 it was
00:46:56.280 I must
00:46:57.220 say
00:46:57.360 it was
00:46:57.780 a bad
00:46:58.220 job
00:46:58.740 certainly
00:46:59.400 not where
00:46:59.820 one wanted
00:47:00.600 to be
00:47:01.080 in one's
00:47:01.900 thinking
00:47:02.980 alongside
00:47:03.860 him
00:47:04.300 but
00:47:04.520 it's
00:47:04.700 where
00:47:04.840 one
00:47:05.080 had
00:47:05.300 to be
00:47:05.600 I mean
00:47:05.820 because
00:47:06.040 he really
00:47:06.480 did have
00:47:07.680 security
00:47:08.020 concerns
00:47:08.400 and
00:47:08.760 it's
00:47:09.580 amazing
00:47:10.000 the number
00:47:10.420 of weird
00:47:10.980 people
00:47:11.620 who show
00:47:12.140 up
00:47:12.420 when
00:47:12.820 his
00:47:13.560 presence
00:47:13.880 is
00:47:14.060 announced
00:47:14.440 somewhere
00:47:15.460 but
00:47:16.020 it gave
00:47:16.800 me a chance
00:47:17.200 to spend
00:47:17.580 some time
00:47:18.040 with him
00:47:18.460 and see
00:47:19.100 what he
00:47:19.400 was like
00:47:19.940 again
00:47:20.840 and again
00:47:21.200 and again
00:47:21.560 mingling
00:47:22.600 with
00:47:23.020 strangers
00:47:23.780 of all
00:47:24.240 sorts
00:47:24.600 and
00:47:25.000 yeah
00:47:25.800 he's
00:47:26.000 a very
00:47:27.480 impressive
00:47:28.000 person
00:47:28.860 in that
00:47:29.440 way
00:47:29.720 he does
00:47:30.660 have a
00:47:30.940 kind
00:47:31.220 of
00:47:31.500 laser
00:47:32.320 focus
00:47:32.800 on
00:47:33.420 just
00:47:34.060 connecting
00:47:34.980 with
00:47:35.300 people
00:47:35.660 you know
00:47:35.960 albeit
00:47:36.580 very briefly
00:47:37.440 I mean
00:47:37.660 he'll walk
00:47:38.040 into
00:47:38.220 a lobby
00:47:38.900 of a hotel
00:47:40.440 and there'll be
00:47:41.060 40 people
00:47:42.220 if you'd like
00:47:46.240 to continue
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00:48:09.000 and
00:48:12.640 .
00:48:22.480 .
00:48:23.760 .
00:48:24.880 .
00:48:26.800 .
00:48:27.000 .
00:48:27.300 .
00:48:27.880 .
00:48:29.020 .
00:48:33.300 .
00:48:34.660 .
00:48:35.380 .
00:48:35.820 .
00:48:36.080 .
00:48:36.120 .
00:48:36.300 .
00:48:36.340 .
00:48:36.860 .