Making Sense - Sam Harris - #219 — The Power of Compassion

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.460 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.380 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber

00:00:14.260 feed and will only be hearing partial episodes of the podcast.

00:00:18.320 If you'd like access to full episodes, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org.

00:00:22.940 There you'll find our private RSS feed to add to your favorite podcatcher, along with

00:00:27.540 other subscriber-only content.

00:00:30.000 And as always, I never want money to be the reason why someone can't listen to the podcast.

00:00:34.960 So if you can't afford a subscription, there's an option at samharris.org to request a free

00:00:39.460 account, and we grant 100% of those requests, no questions asked.

00:00:46.920 Okay, no housekeeping today.

00:00:49.640 I will jump right into it.

00:00:52.280 Today I'm speaking with James Doty.

00:00:54.480 James is a professor of neurosurgery at Stanford University and the director of the Center

00:01:00.760 for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education.

00:01:04.320 He is also a philanthropist who has funded health clinics throughout the world and has

00:01:08.960 endowed scholarships and chairs at multiple universities.

00:01:11.780 And he also serves on the board of a number of non-profits.

00:01:16.620 And as you'll hear, he has a very unusual background.

00:01:20.300 He grew up in real poverty and faced a number of challenges and seemed by no means guaranteed

00:01:27.260 to succeed in life.

00:01:29.640 But as you can hear, he has accomplished quite a lot.

00:01:33.140 So we talk about how he did that and how we might better understand and facilitate the

00:01:39.740 human capacity to overcome obstacles and bring more compassion into our lives and to generally

00:01:46.840 make the world a better place.

00:01:49.640 And now I bring you James Doty.

00:01:51.720 I am here with James Doty.

00:02:00.140 Jim, thanks for joining me.

00:02:02.060 It's a pleasure to be with you.

00:02:03.140 Thanks for having me.

00:02:05.000 We're going to spend a lot of time talking about how you came to be the Jim Doty, who's

00:02:09.360 now speaking with me.

00:02:11.000 But tell me how you summarize what you're up to now.

00:02:14.520 I'm a professor of neurosurgery at Stanford.

00:02:17.620 Probably more germane for our conversation is I'm the founder and director of the Center

00:02:23.840 for Compassion and Altruism, which is part of the School of Medicine and of which the

00:02:29.560 Dalai Lama is actually the founding benefactor.

00:02:32.640 And I'm also an inventor and entrepreneur and philanthropist at times.

00:02:38.800 And I have really an interest actually in what drives people to be good, if you will.

00:02:46.180 Okay, well, let's begin at the beginning.

00:02:50.000 You've written a very poignant memoir, Into the Magic Shop, which covers your childhood,

00:02:57.440 which really is not the usual childhood, or I can only imagine it's not the usual childhood

00:03:02.380 for someone who has the breadth of your life experience at this point.

00:03:08.820 I mean, your memoir, it's almost like a fairy tale of challenges.

00:03:13.500 I mean, just it entailed an incredible amount of stress.

00:03:17.880 In your earliest years, your father was an alcoholic, your mother was clinically depressed

00:03:23.540 and often suicidally depressed.

00:03:25.820 And then you had this transformation based on an encounter you had in a magic shop, literally

00:03:33.000 a magic shop.

00:03:34.340 So let's talk about how you began this journey of yours in life.

00:03:39.360 How would you describe your childhood and what happened in the magic shop?

00:03:46.780 Sure.

00:03:47.360 Well, of course, when a child grows up in poverty with a father who's an alcoholic, a mother

00:03:54.420 who's had a stroke, partially paralyzed, clinically depressed, the big factor is that in some ways

00:04:04.820 you're in a war zone all the time because you never know what's going to happen.

00:04:07.820 You know, I wouldn't know whether my father was going to not come home or come home drunk

00:04:14.180 or whether I would come in from school and my mother would be passed out from an overdose

00:04:20.380 and I would have to call an ambulance.

00:04:22.860 So, of course, when you grow up in that type of an environment, it's quite chaotic.

00:04:27.960 And as you know, there's something called adverse childhood experiences, and this is essentially

00:04:34.240 a technique where you sort of collect these events that a child lives with growing up,

00:04:40.580 poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, etc.

00:04:44.640 And the higher the number, the less likely that child is going to, if you will, succeed by societal

00:04:53.900 norms and more likely that the child themselves will have drug and alcohol abuse and mental

00:04:59.520 illness and a variety of other obvious negative events happen in their life.

00:05:04.920 And at the age of 12, I was filled with hopelessness, despair, anger, and obviously it was affecting

00:05:15.240 me.

00:05:15.500 And in fact, I was becoming a juvenile delinquent.

00:05:17.680 And I had had an interest in magic, and what would happen is when an event would happen at

00:05:23.920 home that was not particularly pleasant, I would get on my Stingray bike and ride as far away

00:05:32.040 as possible.

00:05:32.980 And on one of those adventures, I happened by a strip mall, and at the strip mall was a magic

00:05:40.380 store, which I went into.

00:05:42.700 And the thing was that when I walked in, of course, my interest was in magic in the store,

00:05:48.860 and there was a woman sitting there who had long flowing gray hair and her glasses on the 1.00

00:05:54.520 tip of her nose and a chain around her glasses reading a paperback.

00:05:58.440 And she looked up at me, and she had this really extraordinarily radiant smile.

00:06:05.880 And I asked her about the magic that I was interested in, and she said, well, I don't know

00:06:10.740 anything about this, this is my son's store, I'm just here for the summer.

00:06:15.340 But this led us really to a conversation that ended up being quite deep, and one, frankly,

00:06:22.380 which I wasn't used to.

00:06:24.380 And the reason the conversation happened was because this is a person who made me feel

00:06:31.760 psychologically safe.

00:06:33.240 I wasn't fearful of her.

00:06:34.820 I wasn't fearful that I was being judged, and she actually spoke to me as if I was an

00:06:41.000 equal, and that my opinion actually meant something, which for a child from my background

00:06:46.920 was somewhat unusual.

00:06:49.920 Yeah, so we'll talk about meditation and compassion and all of these interests that you and I have

00:06:58.200 in common, and obviously your connection to training the mind was initiated in this dialogue

00:07:09.020 with Ruth in the magic shop.

00:07:11.440 But what she was teaching you was not, in some ways it was kind of a standard meditation

00:07:15.820 practices, but in other ways it wasn't.

00:07:19.360 How would you summarize what she taught you there?

00:07:22.480 Well, I think there were four parts, and I have to tell you, I mean, when she offered

00:07:30.280 over the period of the six weeks to meet with me and, if you will, train me, which isn't

00:07:36.820 really what she called it, but I actually, you know, had some concerns even about showing

00:07:42.600 up.

00:07:43.220 And I showed up not because I had self-awareness or insight.

00:07:46.960 I showed up because she was giving me cookies, and frankly, I had absolutely nothing else to

00:07:51.460 do.

00:07:52.480 But I did show up, and the first thing she taught me, which is a technique that now we

00:07:57.860 would call a body survey and a breathing technique, and I did not appreciate that when you're stressed

00:08:06.420 and you're anxious and your mind is all over the place, that with intention, doing this technique

00:08:15.820 of relaxing the body and then slowly breathing in and releasing your breath really had a,

00:08:22.460 profound, profound physiologic effect.

00:08:24.800 This was in 1968, and of course, terms like mindfulness or meditation or neuroplasticity were

00:08:32.380 certainly not commonly used at all.

00:08:36.220 And after a few weeks of doing this practice, I felt in some ways much calmer.

00:08:43.140 And it was interesting because while the first few weeks I didn't really notice anything, as

00:08:51.320 I did it more, I did notice something.

00:08:54.620 And, but one of the things I was having challenges with was as I did this and sat with my own silence,

00:09:02.700 I would have this negative dialogue going on in my head.

00:09:07.400 And it was one that said, I wasn't good enough, I wasn't smart enough, et cetera, et cetera.

00:09:14.240 And what she explained to me was that that dialogue was not truth, and that negative commentary,

00:09:24.620 if you will, sticks to us because they're the things that potentially put us at risk.

00:09:31.380 And that, in fact, that negative commentary could be changed.

00:09:36.720 And this is what she called training the mind or taming the mind. 0.67

00:09:42.080 And basically, it's what we would now call self-compassion, this technique that has been

00:09:49.540 advocated by Krista Neff and others, to be kind to yourself.

00:09:54.660 I realized that I was always beating myself up and blaming myself for my situation.

00:10:03.440 And so with that technique, and she described it as listening to a radio station, if you

00:10:10.620 will, that you could change it, I changed it from one of negativity to one of self-affirmation

00:10:18.020 and self-acceptance.

00:10:21.080 And that, in fact, I was worthy.

00:10:24.600 I did tell people that when you make these types of negative comments to yourself, it's

00:10:30.860 as if you're laying these bricks down that are creating a self-imposed prison and very

00:10:36.080 much giving your power away or agency away to change things in your life.

00:10:42.240 Because every time you say, I can't, it's not possible, the reality is that.

00:10:48.740 And I did not even understand that at the time.

00:10:52.180 And so by changing that dialogue was extraordinarily helpful to me for a couple reasons.

00:11:01.100 One is, many of us have a shadow self that we don't want to admit to, and things that we

00:11:07.880 don't like about ourselves, things that disgust us about ourselves, our failings.

00:11:13.000 And for many people, they have a tendency to try to push it away from them or hide it somewhere.

00:11:19.480 And it doesn't go away.

00:11:22.060 And in fact, when you're troubled or have difficulties, that's when it shows itself.

00:11:27.340 And this is where you can relate it to addiction.

00:11:30.420 When you're particularly stressed, that addiction comes out.

00:11:34.440 And so she taught me to accept that as a part of me and don't deny it and just be aware of it.

00:11:41.060 And the other thing is that because I was so critical of myself, it made me hypercritical of everything and everyone around me.

00:11:52.400 And what I found is that because of that, when I interacted with others or tried to accomplish something, I would take a negative view of it.

00:12:04.600 And what I didn't appreciate is that human beings have this unique ability to intuit emotional states from facial expressions, voice intonation, body habitus, even smells.

00:12:17.940 And when you carry yourself in that fashion, people don't want to be around you or they shy away or they're not open and they're not generous.

00:12:26.100 And as a result, what I tell people is that when I changed how I looked at myself, it changed how the world interacted with me.

00:12:41.180 The other side effect of that was that I carried a lot of anger and hostility towards my personal situation, my parents.

00:12:52.980 And of course, that was not fruitful in any way.

00:12:57.500 And what happened was that I was able to see them in a much different way.

00:13:03.980 I saw them as human beings who had their own pain and suffering and the tools that they had to deal with them were not effective at all.

00:13:16.980 You know, hiding your pain behind alcohol or, you know, taking pills to get rid of the pain and hoping that it would keep it away isn't helpful.

00:13:27.720 And I, in some ways, forgave them and accepted the situation, not trying to hope the situation would be different.

00:13:39.180 And that change in perspective, which I think is important in a lot of these practices, is really very, very important.

00:13:46.820 Well, she taught you something else in the magic shop, which on the surface can sound pretty spooky.

00:13:56.180 I mean, it's in line with what you just described generically in terms of changing your concept of yourself.

00:14:03.720 I mean, she asked you to list what you want in life and to visualize yourself having it.

00:14:09.740 I mean, to really inhabit the person who already has these things, whether it's great wealth or great success,

00:14:15.500 or you had a list of things which was fairly adorable for a 12-year-old, including, you know, having a Porsche and a Rolex.

00:14:23.740 But she wanted you to not see it from the outside, but really see it from the inside and to practice this visualization that really this is a fait accompli.

00:14:32.920 You're guaranteed to arrive at the desired station in life.

00:14:36.580 And what you need to do now is inhabit the psychology of that and make it real for yourself.

00:14:43.040 And, you know, as you walk a line in your description of this that is, to my eye, on the right side of rational here,

00:14:53.480 because there's a rational way to understand how this can benefit a person, but it could also just tip into sounding like the secret.

00:15:01.480 I don't know if you remember that book and that movie, the movie by the name that is the appropriate target of opprobrium

00:15:07.040 at the center of New Age irrationality, but the idea that if you just visualize things or think it's true or assert that it's true,

00:15:14.340 it will become true, whether it's, you know, attaining wealth or losing weight or anything else.

00:15:18.660 But, you know, describe to me how you think about the power of visualizing certain outcomes

00:15:26.260 and how that enforces change in one's basic neurology or one's associated behavior

00:15:34.840 and the kinds of, you know, opportunities that present themselves in life.

00:15:39.760 Sure. No, I think you're right.

00:15:40.980 I will be frank with you.

00:15:43.360 I'm not a fan of the secret or the Celestine prophecies, etc.

00:15:49.440 You know, I don't believe that there's a magic external power and we just need to tap into it and everything will be wonderful.

00:15:59.060 What I do believe, and in some ways I said earlier, is that each of us has extraordinary power.

00:16:06.980 We just don't realize it.

00:16:10.840 And, you know, negative self-dialogue limits that power.

00:16:15.960 What she taught me and what I realize is that when you utilize your senses,

00:16:22.180 and I think we see this now in sports psychology, you know, people think about the athletic event they're going to do over and over and over again.

00:16:30.660 And the reality is, as an example, you know, it's been shown in a variety of studies that when you think about, as an example, lifting weights,

00:16:38.800 you actually increase to a small degree your muscle mass just by thinking about it.

00:16:43.540 And when you repeat something in your head over and over and over again, it starts setting down neuropathways.

00:16:51.840 And when you utilize all your senses to do that, you write it down, you read it, you verbalize it, you think about it, etc., etc.,

00:17:02.460 then I would say that if there is a possibility of it happening, that is the best technique to help that manifest.

00:17:13.000 And I'll give you an interesting example.

00:17:16.880 As a neurosurgeon, of course, I see a lot of patients who have a variety of conditions,

00:17:21.540 but most of the patients who see me will say something like,

00:17:25.180 wow, doctor, I've never heard of that.

00:17:27.400 And then I see them a few months later and they go, you know, it's the most amazing thing.

00:17:31.160 Since we talked about it, I found out I have that.

00:17:33.760 I've run into five people who, in fact, do have that.

00:17:37.040 And the reason is, is because you have put a subconscious primer out there and they're now attuned to that.

00:17:46.840 And in many ways, this is like the technique that Ruth taught me.

00:17:51.480 I put into my subconscious this idea, this possibility, this potential opportunity,

00:17:59.480 and then I am attuned to events that will allow that to occur.

00:18:06.000 I don't know if you've seen the book by a guy named Bob Neese.

00:18:10.360 It's called The Power of 50 Bits.

00:18:12.880 No.

00:18:13.840 Well, the premise is as follows, is that we have about 6 to 10 million sensory inputs happening every second,

00:18:23.760 but we're really only able to process about 50 or 100.

00:18:27.880 And so when you put these things into your subconscious, in some ways you're creating a folder with that thing in it that sits out there,

00:18:38.720 and that's one of the things that you're going to pay attention to, but it's not necessarily on a conscious level.

00:18:43.860 And I think that is how you're able to have these things manifest.

00:18:50.280 But it's not, you know, praying to a power and hoping it happens.

00:18:56.780 There's actually a process here.

00:18:59.340 And, you know, if you look at the placebo effect, if you look at how different individuals are able to make things happen,

00:19:08.180 and as an example, of course, we know monks who can control their heart rate or their body temperature,

00:19:13.500 all of these things are available to us.

00:19:16.480 It's how do you get access to it, and what's the best way to get access to it to have it manifest.

00:19:22.800 Yeah, well, there's a fact here which explains a lot of this,

00:19:28.260 and it's that the brain, on some level, doesn't know the difference between what's real and what is merely a simulation.

00:19:38.460 I mean, the brain is a kind of simulation machine,

00:19:41.640 and the dreaming brain and the waking brain share a fair amount of real estate,

00:19:46.600 apart from their frontal reality testing mode that kind of goes offline when you're dreaming.

00:19:52.140 So to visualize something vividly is not nothing for the brain, right?

00:19:58.740 It is you are training something, and there are many levels of this phenomenon we can witness,

00:20:06.300 you know, some deliberate and some not.

00:20:08.380 I mean, the change you noticed in your patients,

00:20:11.800 everyone has noticed in their lives when they decide they're looking for a new car

00:20:16.600 or they're looking for a new anything,

00:20:18.720 that class of objects in the world suddenly becomes super salient to them,

00:20:23.020 and they're noticing that brand of car or that type of dog or anything else that they have suddenly become interested in.

00:20:29.020 They're noticing that thing everywhere,

00:20:30.500 and it looks like there's been a change in the frequency out in the world,

00:20:34.820 but no, it's just you're just filtering based on that class of information.

00:20:38.540 And it should be very easy to see how negative self-concepts become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:20:45.340 If you think you're the kind of person who isn't good at parties,

00:20:50.400 can't socialize effectively with people,

00:20:53.280 a person who no one likes,

00:20:55.120 well, if that's your self-talk,

00:20:56.420 you can imagine just what you're ramifying in relationship with people out in the world,

00:21:01.920 and the way that becomes self-perpetuating.

00:21:04.240 And the opposite, obviously, can become the case.

00:21:08.360 And what you're describing is a practice of kind of seizing the reins deliberately

00:21:13.720 and jump-starting a virtuous cycle of self-fulfillment

00:21:18.840 and just changing your self-concept.

00:21:22.320 No, I think that's exactly right.

00:21:24.100 And, you know, what's so unfortunate is that this is free and available to everyone.

00:21:31.780 And what's unfortunate is, as you point out,

00:21:34.700 people get into these cycles of these negative emotional states and ruminate on them.

00:21:40.440 And again, unfortunately, it just reinforces that.

00:21:44.640 Again, I was fortunate in that with Ruth's intervention, if you will, 0.82

00:21:50.700 that changed everything.

00:21:51.740 And it made me see the issue wasn't me.

00:21:57.700 The issue was my negative self-talk.

00:21:59.960 And once I got over that and truly believed, if you will, of infinite possibilities,

00:22:06.340 then that allowed a whole series of events to happen.

00:22:10.940 Well, so then you went on to go to college,

00:22:14.120 as improbable as that seemed, given your background.

00:22:17.100 And it really did seem improbable,

00:22:18.940 even with all your visualization, you sort of barely got an application in hand.

00:22:24.880 And then you not only went to college, you went on to become a neurosurgeon.

00:22:30.600 Let's talk for a few minutes about the choice to become a neurosurgeon.

00:22:35.560 I actually, you know, have a, as you know, a PhD in neuroscience,

00:22:39.320 but I don't know too many neurosurgeons well.

00:22:43.360 I mean, I know a few, but in terms of actual friends who are neurosurgeons.

00:22:47.920 So what I know about the culture of neurosurgery is from the outside.

00:22:53.780 I remember reading this book a while back, When the Air Hits Your Brain.

00:22:58.120 I don't know if you've ever read this book by Vertisic.

00:23:00.120 You know, I don't know how faithfully he captures the culture,

00:23:03.580 but he really does paint the culture of neurosurgeons

00:23:06.780 as a kind of culture of gunslingers and frat boys.

00:23:11.560 It seems to be a specialty that selects for a kind of high testosterone arrogance.

00:23:18.500 And you and your, you know, certainly in your residency,

00:23:21.420 as you were, as your visualizations were actually working,

00:23:24.560 there was a fair amount of arrogance that came online for you.

00:23:27.380 So tell me what it was like to become a neurosurgeon

00:23:30.280 and how you view that field of expertise.

00:23:33.980 Well, I would say that over the last number of years,

00:23:38.320 that has changed somewhat.

00:23:42.480 But you're right.

00:23:45.140 I mean, this is a group of people

00:23:46.820 who are comfortable with somebody's life in their hands,

00:23:52.460 realizing that a false move can destroy someone's life.

00:23:56.260 And with that power, in some ways,

00:24:00.540 for many people comes a sense of arrogance

00:24:03.440 and a belief of infallibility.

00:24:07.320 And so, of course, the system selects for those types of people.

00:24:14.360 The other interesting thing about it is,

00:24:16.680 of course, not only do you have to be intelligent,

00:24:19.200 hopefully you have good judgment and technical abilities.

00:24:22.240 That's not always the case.

00:24:25.820 But the thing for many of these people is,

00:24:29.520 most decided they were going to be a neurosurgeon,

00:24:32.520 I mean, literally in high school or early in college.

00:24:37.100 And it was this driving force that made them want to be a neurosurgeon.

00:24:41.600 And my situation was quite a bit different

00:24:45.540 in that I was actually interested in plastic surgery,

00:24:50.040 specifically in caring for children who had craniofacial deformities.

00:24:53.700 And I thought being a neurosurgeon would be helpful for that.

00:24:58.880 I realized I wasn't that interested in general surgery,

00:25:02.520 which is usually the path to then do a fellowship in plastic surgery.

00:25:06.700 So I was, if you will, very late to the game.

00:25:11.460 And it was never a burning desire of mine

00:25:14.820 to be a neurosurgeon for the typical reasons.

00:25:18.280 So my view was somewhat different.

00:25:23.380 But I would also suggest it's an extraordinarily demanding specialty.

00:25:29.000 And I tell people,

00:25:30.740 if there is absolutely nothing else you can imagine yourself doing,

00:25:34.420 that's great, become a neurosurgeon.

00:25:35.840 Otherwise, if there's anything that interests you beyond that,

00:25:40.100 you should do that.

00:25:41.580 Because this is a lot of hours and hours of training.

00:25:45.460 I mean, neurosurgery is now seven years.

00:25:47.780 Certainly, if you're going into academics,

00:25:50.180 or many people just regardless do a fellowship

00:25:52.780 of one to two to three years.

00:25:55.120 So you're now 10 years down the road from college.

00:25:58.600 And it's a specialty that requires intense focus,

00:26:03.920 an immense amount of diligence,

00:26:06.640 and frankly, heartache.

00:26:09.480 Nothing is, you know, more painful

00:26:13.920 than to, you know, have to tell someone

00:26:17.040 that their loved one either is devastated,

00:26:19.740 didn't survive,

00:26:20.580 you weren't able to do what you were going to do.

00:26:22.940 Now, interestingly,

00:26:25.360 I know colleagues who,

00:26:28.520 for them,

00:26:29.260 those types of statements are

00:26:31.560 just another day at work.

00:26:34.660 And it's like, you know,

00:26:36.580 water on a duck's back.

00:26:38.060 For me,

00:26:39.020 I take it much more personally.

00:26:41.220 Yeah, I can hear.

00:26:44.700 So yeah,

00:26:45.120 I wanted to ask you about that,

00:26:46.980 because, you know,

00:26:47.580 obviously we're now getting to the topic of compassion.

00:26:51.520 And I was wondering how much your experience

00:26:54.260 as a surgeon,

00:26:56.180 which really,

00:26:57.220 again, from the outside,

00:26:58.120 I mean, any kind of surgeon,

00:26:59.080 but I think a neurosurgeon

00:27:00.620 is maybe the ultimate example of this.

00:27:03.640 And a pediatric neurosurgeon,

00:27:05.500 one of your,

00:27:06.300 the beginning of your memoir

00:27:07.600 puts us in the OR

00:27:09.160 where you're operating on

00:27:11.100 a brain tumor in a child.

00:27:14.020 I just can imagine

00:27:15.060 having those conversations

00:27:17.760 with parents,

00:27:20.460 you know,

00:27:20.840 who are understandably in extremis.

00:27:23.520 I mean,

00:27:23.680 this is the height of fear,

00:27:26.420 of uncertainty before surgery.

00:27:28.720 And obviously,

00:27:29.440 in those cases where it goes well,

00:27:31.800 that has to be a joy second to none.

00:27:34.540 But when it doesn't go well,

00:27:36.320 that has to be truly harrowing.

00:27:40.220 You just raised the topic

00:27:41.720 that I was wondering about.

00:27:43.100 If compassion,

00:27:44.620 and again,

00:27:44.940 we need to talk about compassion

00:27:46.560 and define it

00:27:47.560 and differentiate it

00:27:48.460 from other states of mind.

00:27:49.560 But before we get there,

00:27:51.220 I'm just wondering

00:27:51.720 if compassion is

00:27:53.280 the only tool you need

00:27:55.120 to navigate moments like that,

00:27:57.100 or if there's something,

00:27:59.580 you know,

00:28:00.200 less ideal.

00:28:01.240 I can imagine

00:28:01.900 there's almost a

00:28:03.220 kind of benevolent

00:28:05.640 or fortuitous psychopathy

00:28:07.740 that comes online

00:28:08.700 for many surgeons

00:28:09.760 where it's just like,

00:28:10.600 this is just the job, right?

00:28:12.760 You can't take this to heart

00:28:14.800 every time

00:28:16.040 or even generally

00:28:16.920 because this will destroy you

00:28:19.500 if you're moved around

00:28:21.060 too much

00:28:22.220 by the outcomes here.

00:28:25.320 And it sounds like

00:28:26.460 some surgeons

00:28:27.020 do this to a fault.

00:28:29.700 They're kind of checked out

00:28:30.840 emotionally

00:28:31.360 around the reality

00:28:33.140 of the situation

00:28:33.960 for the parents

00:28:34.700 or for the patients.

00:28:36.440 How do you view

00:28:37.000 the range of emotions

00:28:38.420 that are ideal

00:28:39.780 in this circumstance

00:28:41.100 and how do you

00:28:41.820 navigate that?

00:28:43.360 Well, it's interesting

00:28:44.660 because it is

00:28:46.480 a broad range.

00:28:48.340 There's a subset

00:28:49.300 of people

00:28:49.900 who, frankly,

00:28:51.920 may be on

00:28:52.460 the Asperger spectrum

00:28:53.880 who,

00:28:55.240 they're great technicians,

00:28:56.960 they know the literature,

00:28:58.820 et cetera, et cetera.

00:28:59.520 They have no

00:29:01.020 emotional connection

00:29:02.100 and it is a job

00:29:03.660 and they do the job

00:29:04.800 and then they're gone.

00:29:07.120 And of course,

00:29:08.280 if you're talking

00:29:08.740 about a doctor-patient

00:29:10.600 relationship,

00:29:11.920 there isn't one.

00:29:13.300 And I've even had people say,

00:29:14.600 well, I know he's not very nice

00:29:16.660 and he's abrupt

00:29:17.500 and brusque 0.99

00:29:18.200 and arrogant, 0.96

00:29:19.220 but he's a good surgeon. 0.97

00:29:20.500 Okay.

00:29:21.280 And then you have

00:29:22.340 the other extreme

00:29:24.940 where someone's

00:29:26.920 highly engaging,

00:29:28.000 very sensitive

00:29:29.160 and connected

00:29:29.980 and suffers

00:29:31.760 with you,

00:29:32.760 but the key

00:29:34.140 is to be able

00:29:35.220 to understand

00:29:37.120 the limits

00:29:38.540 of your abilities

00:29:39.560 and as long

00:29:41.240 as you

00:29:41.820 can tell yourself,

00:29:43.660 I prepared

00:29:44.600 and did the best

00:29:45.240 I can,

00:29:46.420 then there's no

00:29:47.480 more of a discussion.

00:29:48.620 That's all

00:29:49.100 you can do

00:29:49.940 and you're okay.

00:29:51.920 And I think

00:29:52.380 in my mind,

00:29:53.500 of course,

00:29:54.020 that would be

00:29:54.980 the ideal

00:29:56.180 situation

00:29:57.400 as in my book,

00:29:59.400 I talked about

00:30:00.200 a woman 0.57

00:30:01.200 who was an opera singer

00:30:02.300 who had an aneurysm

00:30:04.780 which is a dilatation

00:30:06.520 of a blood vessel

00:30:07.260 in the brain

00:30:07.700 near her speech area

00:30:08.680 and asked me

00:30:10.700 to operate on her

00:30:11.660 and by this time,

00:30:13.480 she had seen

00:30:14.280 a few other people,

00:30:15.360 we had become friends

00:30:16.280 and when I had

00:30:18.520 the aneurysm exposed

00:30:19.720 and really literally

00:30:21.720 it truly was about

00:30:22.820 to rupture,

00:30:23.480 you could see

00:30:23.900 the blood swirling

00:30:25.020 in the aneurysm

00:30:27.380 because it was so,

00:30:28.260 it was paper thin

00:30:29.280 and during that moment,

00:30:32.440 I started thinking

00:30:33.540 about her

00:30:34.260 versus the technical

00:30:37.240 aspects of

00:30:38.380 doing that job

00:30:39.820 and my hands

00:30:41.580 started shaking

00:30:42.320 to the point

00:30:43.020 where I had to stop

00:30:44.120 and actually

00:30:45.200 go into a meditation

00:30:46.720 to essentially

00:30:49.480 become a technician

00:30:51.380 and displace

00:30:53.460 my emotional

00:30:54.380 connection to her

00:30:55.900 out of the picture

00:30:57.020 and once I was able

00:30:58.600 to do that,

00:30:59.520 I was then able

00:31:01.080 to effectively

00:31:02.500 treat her

00:31:03.100 and she did fine

00:31:04.080 and that's really

00:31:05.460 one of the few instances

00:31:07.560 where connecting

00:31:09.340 with their humanity

00:31:10.480 does not allow you

00:31:12.760 to do your job

00:31:14.320 and that is

00:31:15.160 a job

00:31:15.820 of being a technician.

00:31:17.740 Well, let's talk about,

00:31:19.000 I think I do want

00:31:20.060 to touch on your,

00:31:22.000 kind of the other side

00:31:22.880 of your career

00:31:23.580 where you've been

00:31:25.180 an entrepreneur

00:31:25.720 and someone

00:31:26.840 who has, you know,

00:31:27.500 run a company

00:31:28.340 and had kind of

00:31:29.380 interesting adventures

00:31:31.440 in wealth

00:31:32.760 and philanthropy.

00:31:34.820 We'll jump to that

00:31:35.800 after we talk

00:31:36.920 about compassion

00:31:38.480 and how you came

00:31:39.700 to focus on it

00:31:40.560 and just what it is

00:31:42.040 and how did compassion

00:31:43.540 first become

00:31:44.600 a primary focus

00:31:45.960 of yours

00:31:46.440 and what is it?

00:31:47.860 How do you think

00:31:48.340 about it as a mental

00:31:49.820 state and capacity?

00:31:52.100 Well, on some level

00:31:53.520 I, it was always there.

00:31:56.380 I just didn't quite

00:31:58.020 understand what it meant

00:31:59.700 but what had happened

00:32:01.980 was at one point

00:32:03.240 I had left Stanford

00:32:05.220 and I had been

00:32:07.180 intermittently involved

00:32:08.100 with Stanford

00:32:08.600 since I think 97

00:32:09.900 but I had left

00:32:12.020 to run an

00:32:12.700 entrepreneurial company

00:32:13.720 then the dot-com

00:32:14.660 crisis came

00:32:15.520 and I used to

00:32:17.060 consult for setting up

00:32:18.260 if you will

00:32:18.820 neuroscience centers

00:32:19.580 of excellence

00:32:20.100 and went to a hospital

00:32:22.580 in Mississippi

00:32:23.360 and ultimately agreed

00:32:25.800 to actually go there

00:32:26.760 to build this program

00:32:27.840 for them

00:32:28.340 but during that time

00:32:30.860 I had an experience

00:32:33.100 with a child

00:32:35.020 who was not cared

00:32:36.600 for adequately

00:32:37.420 and as a result

00:32:38.300 had an infection

00:32:39.180 in his brain

00:32:40.020 and an abscess

00:32:40.820 and his parents

00:32:42.340 waited too long

00:32:44.060 to bring him in

00:32:44.940 and he,

00:32:46.580 even with my best efforts

00:32:47.880 he died

00:32:48.460 but it put me

00:32:49.580 into a period

00:32:50.220 of reflection

00:32:50.860 about all of these things

00:32:52.340 and when I went

00:32:53.880 back to Stanford

00:32:54.780 I decided to

00:32:56.580 explore this

00:32:57.640 a little more

00:32:58.560 and try to

00:32:59.700 understand it

00:33:00.560 and interestingly

00:33:02.460 when I initially

00:33:03.720 talked to my

00:33:04.560 colleagues

00:33:05.140 at Stanford

00:33:06.660 in psychology

00:33:08.020 and neuroscience

00:33:08.760 actually

00:33:10.360 I was told

00:33:12.060 that the academic

00:33:13.300 exploration

00:33:14.960 of compassion

00:33:16.220 was a dead end

00:33:17.780 and that if

00:33:18.820 anyone made that

00:33:20.660 the center

00:33:21.400 of their

00:33:22.140 academic endeavors

00:33:24.200 they were not

00:33:25.140 going to go

00:33:25.460 very far

00:33:26.100 the fortunate thing

00:33:28.040 was that I

00:33:29.000 had some

00:33:29.760 financial resources

00:33:30.900 which allowed me

00:33:32.300 to fund

00:33:32.860 what we initially

00:33:33.860 called Project

00:33:34.620 Compassion

00:33:35.360 which brought

00:33:36.340 a group

00:33:36.740 of psychologists

00:33:37.960 and neuroscientists

00:33:39.500 together

00:33:39.860 and we started

00:33:41.140 a journal club

00:33:41.900 looking at the

00:33:42.480 literature

00:33:42.840 and then did

00:33:43.780 some studies

00:33:44.500 and really

00:33:45.660 it was evident

00:33:46.680 that actually

00:33:48.340 these practices

00:33:49.140 or if you will

00:33:51.360 the nature

00:33:51.920 of compassion

00:33:52.640 was quite

00:33:53.460 profound

00:33:54.620 in regard

00:33:55.360 to how it

00:33:56.780 affects

00:33:58.060 your emotional

00:33:59.600 state

00:34:00.060 how it can

00:34:00.640 affect your

00:34:01.100 physiology

00:34:01.640 and a whole

00:34:03.180 variety

00:34:04.140 of both

00:34:04.620 brain

00:34:05.080 and

00:34:05.640 peripheral

00:34:06.580 physiology

00:34:07.260 measures

00:34:07.820 and this

00:34:09.300 led to the

00:34:09.960 creation

00:34:10.280 ultimately

00:34:10.800 of a

00:34:11.220 compassion

00:34:11.660 cultivation

00:34:12.200 training

00:34:12.900 program

00:34:13.860 which we

00:34:14.340 did some

00:34:14.740 studies on

00:34:15.520 and also

00:34:16.800 I think

00:34:18.220 led to some

00:34:19.060 interesting

00:34:19.540 studies

00:34:20.140 and then

00:34:21.960 of course

00:34:22.620 over time

00:34:24.060 and I think

00:34:25.220 if you look

00:34:25.680 over the last

00:34:26.260 12 to 15

00:34:27.880 years

00:34:28.280 this idea

00:34:29.000 of the

00:34:29.880 importance

00:34:30.260 of compassion

00:34:31.160 combined

00:34:32.280 with our

00:34:32.820 already

00:34:33.460 significant

00:34:34.420 interest

00:34:34.780 in mindfulness

00:34:35.380 practices

00:34:36.140 really is

00:34:37.460 one of the

00:34:38.060 things that

00:34:38.600 are at the

00:34:39.340 forefront

00:34:39.700 I mean

00:34:40.220 years and

00:34:40.740 years ago

00:34:41.180 when we

00:34:42.060 started this

00:34:42.760 you would

00:34:44.260 talk about

00:34:44.700 compassion

00:34:45.280 and for

00:34:45.640 many people

00:34:46.280 it was

00:34:46.540 completely

00:34:46.960 poo-pooed 0.97

00:34:47.540 especially

00:34:47.860 by the

00:34:48.240 corporate

00:34:48.500 community

00:34:49.040 because it's

00:34:50.160 looked as

00:34:50.660 a form

00:34:51.000 of weakness

00:34:51.580 you know

00:34:52.300 people run

00:34:52.880 over you

00:34:53.360 if you're

00:34:53.700 too nice

00:34:54.260 if you're

00:34:54.620 compassionate

00:34:55.180 and I

00:34:56.260 think now

00:34:56.800 people recognize

00:34:57.980 that it is

00:34:59.160 in fact

00:34:59.680 extraordinarily

00:35:00.540 powerful

00:35:01.200 yeah so

00:35:02.520 let's talk

00:35:03.180 about what

00:35:03.620 the mental

00:35:04.320 state is

00:35:05.020 because it's

00:35:05.380 often conflated

00:35:06.760 with empathy

00:35:07.900 and sympathy

00:35:09.640 and pity

00:35:10.980 and it

00:35:13.140 needs to be

00:35:13.680 differentiated

00:35:14.320 even from

00:35:14.860 something that's

00:35:15.500 integral to it

00:35:16.740 something like

00:35:17.520 loving kindness

00:35:18.720 it also gets

00:35:19.660 operationalized

00:35:20.520 differently in

00:35:21.040 different studies

00:35:21.680 so that the

00:35:22.420 neuroscience

00:35:22.900 as far as I

00:35:24.160 can tell

00:35:24.440 is still a

00:35:24.840 little fuzzy

00:35:25.320 because

00:35:25.800 some studies

00:35:27.520 they're done

00:35:28.960 in irreconcilable

00:35:29.960 ways

00:35:30.340 I mean

00:35:30.520 some ask

00:35:31.560 people just

00:35:32.080 to generate

00:35:32.720 the state

00:35:33.240 of loving

00:35:33.560 kindness

00:35:33.940 essentially

00:35:34.420 without any

00:35:35.620 stimuli

00:35:36.020 and then some

00:35:36.700 present subjects

00:35:37.680 with images

00:35:38.160 of human

00:35:39.280 suffering

00:35:39.700 to which

00:35:40.560 they respond

00:35:41.920 and so

00:35:42.780 I think

00:35:44.380 that at least

00:35:45.360 in my view

00:35:46.000 the generic

00:35:46.740 definition

00:35:47.740 of compassion

00:35:48.340 is loving

00:35:50.280 kindness

00:35:50.800 in the

00:35:51.480 presence

00:35:51.880 of suffering

00:35:52.740 where

00:35:52.980 human

00:35:54.680 suffering

00:35:55.160 or animal

00:35:55.640 suffering

00:35:56.060 is taken

00:35:57.340 as its

00:35:57.820 object

00:35:58.260 and

00:35:58.980 it

00:35:59.640 includes

00:36:00.360 this

00:36:00.920 desire

00:36:01.500 this

00:36:01.800 motivation

00:36:02.320 to

00:36:02.620 alleviate

00:36:03.160 the

00:36:03.800 suffering

00:36:04.140 of others

00:36:04.740 it has a few

00:36:05.800 things bundled

00:36:06.600 in here

00:36:06.920 it's directly

00:36:07.580 cognizant

00:36:08.420 of suffering

00:36:09.480 so it has a

00:36:10.940 kind of

00:36:11.240 cognitive

00:36:11.760 empathy

00:36:12.240 but it

00:36:13.580 doesn't have

00:36:14.400 the same

00:36:14.740 kind of

00:36:15.100 emotional

00:36:15.520 contagion

00:36:16.160 it's not

00:36:16.500 like you're

00:36:16.900 sad

00:36:17.440 when the

00:36:18.520 object of

00:36:19.020 your

00:36:19.260 compassion

00:36:20.220 is sad

00:36:20.780 or you're

00:36:21.240 depressed

00:36:21.700 when the

00:36:22.080 object of

00:36:22.540 your

00:36:22.660 compassion

00:36:23.080 is depressed

00:36:23.860 it's a

00:36:24.740 highly

00:36:25.260 pro-social

00:36:26.180 and even

00:36:27.500 positive

00:36:28.120 emotion

00:36:28.600 it's not

00:36:29.400 morbid

00:36:30.020 it's not

00:36:30.440 a state

00:36:31.460 of collapse

00:36:32.680 you're not

00:36:33.200 feeling

00:36:33.880 diminished

00:36:35.040 psychologically

00:36:36.260 by proximity

00:36:37.160 to the

00:36:37.960 suffering

00:36:38.220 of others

00:36:38.660 in fact

00:36:39.380 it's an

00:36:39.700 expansive

00:36:40.300 state

00:36:40.960 that has

00:36:41.880 the feeling

00:36:42.420 tone

00:36:42.820 of loving

00:36:43.480 kindness

00:36:43.940 but it

00:36:44.960 has this

00:36:45.440 extra

00:36:46.040 topspin

00:36:47.160 of wanting

00:36:48.600 to respond

00:36:49.520 to the

00:36:50.440 suffering

00:36:50.740 of others

00:36:51.220 by alleviating

00:36:52.220 that suffering

00:36:53.060 does that

00:36:53.560 make sense

00:36:54.280 yeah I think

00:36:55.080 you're exactly

00:36:55.500 right

00:36:55.800 I think

00:36:56.520 you know

00:36:56.980 if you were

00:36:57.260 to make

00:36:57.600 a graph

00:36:59.200 and you put

00:36:59.740 agency

00:37:00.340 and effort

00:37:00.960 on one

00:37:01.700 and you put

00:37:02.340 understanding

00:37:02.960 and engagement

00:37:03.480 on the other

00:37:04.040 sort of in the

00:37:05.440 downward left

00:37:06.860 corner

00:37:07.380 would be pity

00:37:08.160 and this is

00:37:09.280 I'm sorry

00:37:09.920 for you

00:37:10.560 or

00:37:10.920 and it's

00:37:12.200 invariably

00:37:12.800 related to

00:37:13.580 I'm superior

00:37:14.380 to you

00:37:15.040 I appreciate

00:37:16.280 your situation

00:37:17.800 it has

00:37:18.440 nothing to do

00:37:19.040 with

00:37:19.360 empathy

00:37:20.820 or anything

00:37:21.580 else

00:37:22.000 it simply

00:37:22.540 has to do

00:37:23.140 with your

00:37:23.440 recognizing it

00:37:24.400 and it

00:37:25.420 you know

00:37:25.980 you feel bad

00:37:26.740 for them

00:37:27.140 but doesn't

00:37:28.020 imply you're

00:37:29.120 going to do

00:37:29.580 anything

00:37:29.960 for them

00:37:31.220 while

00:37:31.700 sympathy

00:37:32.960 is

00:37:34.660 less than

00:37:36.200 empathy

00:37:36.560 it's

00:37:37.020 I

00:37:37.300 on a

00:37:37.880 cognitive

00:37:38.280 level

00:37:38.700 if you

00:37:39.080 will

00:37:39.400 understand

00:37:40.820 that you're

00:37:41.700 in pain

00:37:42.740 and I

00:37:43.200 feel for

00:37:43.960 you

00:37:44.260 but it

00:37:45.520 requires

00:37:46.080 no

00:37:46.420 agency

00:37:47.080 per se

00:37:47.900 while

00:37:49.180 empathy

00:37:49.760 is actually

00:37:51.340 you know

00:37:52.000 taking on

00:37:52.660 the

00:37:53.000 emotional

00:37:53.820 state

00:37:55.120 of another

00:37:55.940 but it

00:37:57.820 has no

00:37:58.180 valence

00:37:58.700 it can

00:37:59.220 you can

00:37:59.980 have

00:38:00.120 empathic

00:38:00.660 joy

00:38:01.040 and that

00:38:02.440 can feel

00:38:02.800 very good

00:38:03.480 or

00:38:03.860 as

00:38:04.920 Mathieu Ricard

00:38:05.760 will describe

00:38:06.840 who's a

00:38:07.420 Buddhist monk

00:38:07.980 who I'm

00:38:08.460 sure you

00:38:08.700 probably

00:38:09.120 know

00:38:09.580 he says

00:38:10.740 when

00:38:11.040 you know

00:38:11.420 I take

00:38:11.960 on pain

00:38:12.860 and feel

00:38:14.220 for the

00:38:14.640 other's

00:38:15.060 pain

00:38:15.520 it is

00:38:16.500 so painful

00:38:17.120 to myself

00:38:17.940 that I

00:38:18.500 can barely

00:38:19.280 stand it

00:38:20.020 compassion

00:38:20.940 is different

00:38:21.900 in the sense

00:38:22.480 that it

00:38:23.580 is associated

00:38:24.660 with suffering

00:38:25.300 it requires

00:38:26.120 your take

00:38:26.500 on that

00:38:26.820 emotional

00:38:27.200 state

00:38:27.600 but

00:38:28.020 you have

00:38:29.380 a very

00:38:29.820 strong

00:38:30.320 motivational

00:38:31.140 desire

00:38:31.880 to alleviate

00:38:32.600 that

00:38:33.000 suffering

00:38:33.500 and I

00:38:34.400 think

00:38:34.540 that's

00:38:35.020 really

00:38:35.860 the key

00:38:36.420 there

00:38:36.820 is that

00:38:38.100 you are

00:38:38.780 motivated

00:38:39.620 to alleviate

00:38:40.760 that

00:38:41.100 suffering

00:38:41.440 now

00:38:41.660 interestingly

00:38:42.240 Jamil

00:38:43.120 Zaki 0.61

00:38:43.540 who wrote

00:38:44.000 a book

00:38:44.280 on kindness

00:38:44.960 recently

00:38:45.540 says

00:38:46.840 empathy

00:38:47.360 is the

00:38:48.380 same as

00:38:48.720 compassion

00:38:49.240 or he

00:38:49.580 uses them

00:38:50.200 interchangeably

00:38:51.200 he and I

00:38:51.640 have had

00:38:51.920 some

00:38:52.140 discussions

00:38:53.460 about that

00:38:54.240 but

00:38:54.560 I think

00:38:55.800 some people

00:38:56.340 do have

00:38:56.900 a tendency

00:38:57.280 to use

00:38:57.880 that

00:38:58.160 but

00:38:58.420 I would

00:38:59.140 not

00:38:59.320 use

00:38:59.520 it

00:38:59.640 that

00:38:59.840 way

00:39:00.060 yeah

00:39:01.020 the terminology

00:39:01.760 here is

00:39:02.440 uncertain

00:39:03.140 enough

00:39:03.500 that even

00:39:03.980 my friend

00:39:05.160 Paul Bloom

00:39:05.680 could write

00:39:06.040 a book

00:39:06.380 against

00:39:06.920 empathy

00:39:07.400 differentiating

00:39:08.640 two different

00:39:09.140 types of

00:39:09.580 empathy

00:39:09.880 one of which

00:39:10.600 I agree

00:39:11.600 with him

00:39:11.920 is not

00:39:12.420 a good

00:39:12.900 guide

00:39:13.340 for moral

00:39:14.080 deliberation

00:39:15.140 which is

00:39:15.680 again

00:39:16.280 just more

00:39:16.940 this pure

00:39:17.480 emotional

00:39:17.940 contagion

00:39:18.680 side of

00:39:19.680 it

00:39:19.800 which is

00:39:20.340 just being

00:39:21.420 taken in

00:39:22.240 by suffering

00:39:23.680 and feeling

00:39:25.000 it as

00:39:25.640 your own

00:39:26.180 but in a

00:39:26.680 way that is

00:39:27.340 causing you

00:39:28.380 to actually

00:39:29.120 not be

00:39:30.180 able to

00:39:31.400 respond

00:39:31.820 effectively

00:39:32.320 or even

00:39:32.760 think

00:39:33.140 rationally

00:39:33.840 about what

00:39:34.260 would help

00:39:34.780 you know

00:39:35.300 their problem

00:39:35.820 has become

00:39:36.200 your problem

00:39:36.820 and you know

00:39:37.600 you're

00:39:38.140 you're yet 1.00

00:39:38.700 another drowning 0.99

00:39:39.320 person

00:39:39.820 who doesn't

00:39:40.700 know how to

00:39:41.020 swim

00:39:41.280 and needs

00:39:41.660 to be

00:39:41.880 rescued

00:39:42.180 yes

00:39:42.900 so then

00:39:43.780 how did

00:39:44.140 you get

00:39:45.180 connected

00:39:45.740 with

00:39:46.260 the Dalai

00:39:47.000 Lama

00:39:47.260 and other

00:39:47.800 Buddhists 1.00

00:39:48.720 in this

00:39:49.140 vein

00:39:49.800 yeah

00:39:50.820 so

00:39:52.260 and this

00:39:53.160 may sound

00:39:54.480 like magical

00:39:55.100 thinking

00:39:55.620 and I hate

00:39:57.080 to do that

00:39:57.560 to you

00:39:57.900 I was

00:39:58.660 involved in

00:39:59.720 this work

00:40:00.300 with these

00:40:00.760 scientists

00:40:01.220 and we

00:40:03.260 had begun

00:40:03.680 some initial

00:40:04.220 research studies

00:40:05.300 and we

00:40:06.680 were thinking

00:40:07.180 about having

00:40:07.660 a conference

00:40:08.220 and I was

00:40:09.280 walking through

00:40:09.960 the Stanford

00:40:10.520 campus one

00:40:11.440 day

00:40:11.720 and again

00:40:14.240 literally

00:40:14.780 an image

00:40:16.200 of the

00:40:16.480 Dalai Lama

00:40:17.040 came into

00:40:17.600 my head

00:40:18.160 and frankly

00:40:20.840 I had zero

00:40:21.880 interest in the

00:40:22.540 Dalai Lama

00:40:23.160 per se

00:40:24.120 and more

00:40:25.480 interestingly

00:40:25.960 my wife

00:40:26.680 was a huge

00:40:27.260 fan

00:40:27.640 and in fact

00:40:28.280 she had

00:40:29.520 bought tickets

00:40:30.160 for us

00:40:30.580 to go

00:40:30.980 to an

00:40:31.300 event

00:40:31.720 and I

00:40:32.520 actually

00:40:32.800 refused

00:40:33.240 to go

00:40:33.740 because

00:40:34.220 it didn't

00:40:34.980 interest me

00:40:35.600 but for

00:40:36.480 some reason

00:40:37.220 this image

00:40:38.540 stayed in

00:40:38.920 my head

00:40:39.540 and I

00:40:41.020 decided

00:40:41.760 that

00:40:42.260 it would

00:40:43.360 be good

00:40:43.800 to

00:40:44.260 invite

00:40:45.340 the Dalai

00:40:45.840 Lama

00:40:46.120 to this

00:40:46.700 conference

00:40:47.200 that we

00:40:47.900 were thinking

00:40:48.300 about doing

00:40:49.000 and he

00:40:50.120 had been

00:40:50.360 at Stanford

00:40:50.840 once

00:40:51.280 previously

00:40:51.960 discussing

00:40:53.620 addiction

00:40:54.300 and craving

00:40:54.920 and I

00:40:56.340 tracked down

00:40:56.920 the person

00:40:57.720 in Buddhist

00:40:58.100 studies

00:40:58.480 who had

00:40:59.080 invited him

00:40:59.960 and then

00:41:01.120 connected

00:41:01.700 him to

00:41:02.820 one of

00:41:03.440 his holiness's

00:41:04.860 translators

00:41:06.080 who had a

00:41:07.520 PhD from

00:41:08.100 Cambridge

00:41:08.560 and

00:41:09.800 this former

00:41:11.420 monk

00:41:11.800 and

00:41:12.340 is that

00:41:13.200 Tipton

00:41:13.800 Jempa

00:41:14.040 exactly

00:41:14.540 yes

00:41:15.240 and

00:41:16.000 Jempa

00:41:17.260 then

00:41:17.660 arranged

00:41:18.720 for this

00:41:19.500 meeting

00:41:19.860 and

00:41:20.720 so at

00:41:22.200 this

00:41:22.420 meeting

00:41:22.820 and

00:41:23.180 it's

00:41:23.680 always

00:41:23.860 interesting

00:41:24.200 how

00:41:24.460 things

00:41:24.860 go

00:41:25.540 because

00:41:26.140 it was

00:41:26.860 just

00:41:27.100 me

00:41:27.400 with

00:41:27.620 this

00:41:27.820 idea

00:41:28.360 but

00:41:29.160 when

00:41:29.320 I

00:41:29.440 was

00:41:29.560 meeting

00:41:29.760 with

00:41:29.940 the

00:41:30.060 Dalai

00:41:30.360 Lama

00:41:30.700 we

00:41:31.840 had

00:41:31.960 the

00:41:32.080 dean

00:41:32.220 of

00:41:32.340 the

00:41:32.460 medical

00:41:32.740 school

00:41:33.420 the

00:41:34.300 associate

00:41:34.700 dean

00:41:35.400 you know

00:41:36.120 it

00:41:36.600 became

00:41:37.000 an

00:41:37.200 entourage

00:41:37.820 and

00:41:39.400 we

00:41:40.480 met

00:41:40.700 with

00:41:40.940 him

00:41:41.220 and

00:41:42.340 his

00:41:43.180 holiness

00:41:43.500 as

00:41:44.520 you

00:41:44.720 know

00:41:45.240 was

00:41:45.540 very

00:41:45.740 interested

00:41:46.020 in

00:41:46.220 neuroscience

00:41:46.760 and

00:41:47.960 was

00:41:48.420 very

00:41:48.680 very

00:41:48.900 interested

00:41:49.240 in

00:41:49.460 this

00:41:49.640 topic

00:41:50.060 and

00:41:51.100 was

00:41:51.340 immediately

00:41:51.720 engaged

00:41:52.280 in our

00:41:52.520 15

00:41:52.920 minute

00:41:53.220 conversation

00:41:54.180 that was

00:41:55.300 scheduled

00:41:55.640 ended up

00:41:56.080 being an

00:41:56.380 hour and

00:41:56.700 a half

00:41:57.020 and

00:41:58.040 at the

00:41:58.860 end

00:41:59.120 of it

00:41:59.380 he

00:41:59.540 began

00:41:59.940 a very

00:42:00.260 animated

00:42:00.620 conversation

00:42:01.300 with

00:42:01.680 Upton

00:42:01.940 Jempa

00:42:02.420 and

00:42:03.620 I

00:42:04.760 thought

00:42:05.100 actually

00:42:05.480 I

00:42:05.620 somehow

00:42:05.960 irritated

00:42:06.720 or

00:42:07.160 made

00:42:08.400 the

00:42:08.540 Dalai

00:42:08.760 Lama

00:42:08.960 angry

00:42:09.380 which

00:42:09.680 of course

00:42:10.040 is a

00:42:10.460 very

00:42:10.680 embarrassing

00:42:11.200 thing

00:42:11.500 to do

00:42:12.340 that

00:42:12.600 would be

00:42:13.040 a feat

00:42:13.580 I would

00:42:14.960 take that

00:42:15.260 as a

00:42:15.480 feather

00:42:15.660 in your

00:42:15.900 cap

00:42:16.220 to accomplish

00:42:17.360 it

00:42:17.500 although I

00:42:18.500 have seen

00:42:19.020 him angry

00:42:19.600 but at the

00:42:21.220 end of this

00:42:21.700 animated dialogue

00:42:23.120 Jempa turned to

00:42:24.340 me and he

00:42:24.940 said

00:42:25.240 his holiness

00:42:27.180 is so moved

00:42:28.020 by this

00:42:29.420 effort that he

00:42:30.180 wants to make

00:42:30.680 a contribution

00:42:31.360 and at that

00:42:32.680 moment he

00:42:33.520 made the

00:42:34.940 largest

00:42:35.740 donation to

00:42:36.600 a non-Tibetan

00:42:37.320 cause he

00:42:37.860 had ever

00:42:38.880 made

00:42:39.300 which shocked

00:42:40.840 everyone

00:42:42.140 there

00:42:42.520 and I

00:42:43.160 was quite

00:42:43.700 overwhelmed

00:42:44.300 and moved

00:42:44.800 myself

00:42:45.380 and then

00:42:46.780 shortly

00:42:47.460 thereafter

00:42:47.960 two other

00:42:48.540 individuals

00:42:49.040 made

00:42:49.480 significant

00:42:50.060 donations

00:42:50.660 and that

00:42:52.440 actually

00:42:53.000 created the

00:42:53.800 center

00:42:54.120 nice

00:42:55.140 nice

00:42:55.420 and how

00:42:55.840 much time

00:42:56.200 have you

00:42:56.420 spent

00:42:56.680 around him

00:42:57.400 since

00:42:58.160 have you

00:42:58.540 met him

00:42:59.220 on multiple

00:42:59.700 occasions

00:43:00.100 yes

00:43:00.640 actually

00:43:01.220 many

00:43:02.100 occasions

00:43:02.640 in different

00:43:03.240 parts of

00:43:03.720 the world

00:43:04.120 I've spent

00:43:04.640 time with

00:43:05.160 him

00:43:05.360 and have

00:43:05.740 chatted

00:43:06.420 with him

00:43:06.960 ultimately

00:43:07.960 I also

00:43:08.920 became

00:43:10.100 chairman

00:43:10.480 of the

00:43:10.820 Dalai Lama

00:43:11.320 foundation

00:43:11.900 for several

00:43:12.580 years

00:43:12.960 so I

00:43:14.340 was

00:43:14.640 fairly

00:43:15.420 involved

00:43:16.380 with him

00:43:17.020 and

00:43:17.860 it's

00:43:18.540 interesting

00:43:18.940 because

00:43:19.840 we're

00:43:21.100 talking about

00:43:21.440 emotional

00:43:21.820 states

00:43:22.320 I can

00:43:23.140 understand

00:43:23.740 why

00:43:24.300 people

00:43:24.840 want to

00:43:25.760 be near

00:43:26.460 him

00:43:26.780 and

00:43:27.920 in some

00:43:28.780 ways

00:43:29.240 it's

00:43:30.180 like

00:43:30.620 what

00:43:30.900 Ruth

00:43:31.220 offered

00:43:31.720 me

00:43:32.020 which

00:43:32.500 is

00:43:33.060 unconditional

00:43:34.840 acceptance

00:43:35.840 and love

00:43:36.940 without

00:43:37.300 qualification

00:43:38.400 and

00:43:40.000 very

00:43:40.720 few

00:43:41.120 people

00:43:41.740 actually

00:43:43.140 give

00:43:44.180 that

00:43:44.460 out

00:43:44.880 in

00:43:45.180 an

00:43:45.700 interaction

00:43:46.100 with

00:43:46.380 them

00:43:46.600 and

00:43:47.180 when

00:43:47.340 you're

00:43:47.600 in

00:43:47.800 his

00:43:48.020 presence

00:43:48.700 what

00:43:49.380 I

00:43:49.520 tell

00:43:49.740 people

00:43:50.160 is

00:43:50.580 that

00:43:51.060 in

00:43:52.500 modern

00:43:52.860 society

00:43:53.540 which

00:43:53.840 is

00:43:54.000 different

00:43:54.340 than

00:43:54.580 how

00:43:54.820 we

00:43:55.000 lived

00:43:55.320 a few

00:43:55.620 hundred

00:43:55.860 years

00:43:56.180 ago

00:43:56.460 a few

00:43:56.780 hundred

00:43:57.020 years

00:43:57.300 ago

00:43:57.540 we

00:43:57.760 lived

00:43:57.960 in a

00:43:58.180 village

00:43:58.600 we

00:43:59.600 typically

00:44:00.140 had

00:44:01.420 multi

00:44:01.860 generations

00:44:02.560 in the

00:44:02.960 village

00:44:03.320 everyone

00:44:03.700 knew

00:44:04.020 you

00:44:04.200 from

00:44:04.380 the

00:44:04.500 time

00:44:04.720 you

00:44:04.840 were

00:44:04.900 a

00:44:05.020 child

00:44:05.280 to

00:44:05.420 growing

00:44:05.680 up

00:44:05.980 you

00:44:06.880 didn't

00:44:07.100 move

00:44:07.360 away

00:44:07.780 you

00:44:08.400 had

00:44:08.580 incredible

00:44:09.080 support

00:44:09.540 system

00:44:10.000 you

00:44:10.220 had

00:44:10.460 a

00:44:10.740 community

00:44:11.300 and

00:44:12.060 that

00:44:12.240 community

00:44:12.720 is

00:44:13.740 extraordinarily

00:44:14.300 important

00:44:14.920 to your

00:44:15.360 mental

00:44:15.640 and physical

00:44:16.260 health

00:44:16.660 I think

00:44:17.100 and

00:44:18.040 in

00:44:18.940 modern

00:44:19.200 society

00:44:19.600 we don't

00:44:19.900 have

00:44:20.080 that

00:44:20.220 at

00:44:20.360 all

00:44:20.640 you

00:44:21.200 don't

00:44:21.360 have

00:44:21.540 your

00:44:21.700 parents

00:44:22.240 around

00:44:22.600 you

00:44:22.780 don't

00:44:22.920 have

00:44:23.100 your

00:44:23.240 siblings

00:44:23.600 you

00:44:23.880 don't

00:44:24.020 have

00:44:24.260 loved

00:44:24.520 ones

00:44:24.880 in

00:44:25.620 proximity

00:44:26.200 and

00:44:27.180 so

00:44:27.400 as a

00:44:27.740 result

00:44:28.060 we

00:44:28.440 have

00:44:28.680 a

00:44:28.880 tendency

00:44:29.320 to

00:44:30.080 create

00:44:31.260 these

00:44:31.580 shields

00:44:31.940 that

00:44:32.120 we

00:44:32.280 carry

00:44:32.640 around

00:44:33.140 which

00:44:33.900 are

00:44:34.120 the

00:44:34.240 ones

00:44:34.500 that

00:44:34.640 say

00:44:34.860 I'm

00:44:35.560 this

00:44:35.860 I'm

00:44:36.140 that

00:44:36.360 I've

00:44:36.600 accomplished

00:44:37.040 this

00:44:37.660 etc

00:44:38.380 etc

00:44:38.760 etc

00:44:39.200 but

00:44:39.620 there's

00:44:40.480 no

00:44:40.680 true

00:44:41.000 authenticity

00:44:41.680 that is

00:44:42.600 ever

00:44:42.880 released

00:44:43.760 and

00:44:44.080 when

00:44:44.840 you're

00:44:45.000 with

00:44:45.180 somebody

00:44:45.440 like

00:44:45.700 the

00:44:45.880 Dalai

00:44:46.200 Lama

00:44:46.560 you

00:44:47.700 know

00:44:47.940 immediately

00:44:48.540 that

00:44:49.500 you

00:44:50.360 are

00:44:50.560 unconditionally

00:44:51.460 accepted

00:44:52.180 and

00:44:52.740 loved

00:44:53.160 and

00:44:54.000 it's

00:44:54.340 really

00:44:54.540 quite

00:44:54.920 profound

00:44:55.500 because

00:44:56.060 when

00:44:56.600 that

00:44:56.820 happens

00:44:57.360 it's

00:44:58.060 almost

00:44:58.320 as if

00:44:58.740 this

00:44:58.940 weight

00:44:59.300 is

00:44:59.520 lifted

00:44:59.860 off

00:45:00.200 of

00:45:00.400 you

00:45:00.600 and

00:45:01.220 this

00:45:01.420 natural

00:45:01.860 joy

00:45:02.480 and

00:45:02.920 exuberance

00:45:03.780 about

00:45:04.140 being

00:45:04.640 alive

00:45:05.080 in

00:45:05.260 some

00:45:05.520 ways

00:45:05.880 is

00:45:06.760 released

00:45:07.280 and

00:45:07.680 so

00:45:08.080 I

00:45:09.020 think

00:45:09.440 you

00:45:10.220 know

00:45:10.320 when

00:45:10.460 you

00:45:10.580 look

00:45:10.780 at

00:45:10.920 people

00:45:11.460 who

00:45:11.880 strive

00:45:12.620 to

00:45:12.820 be

00:45:13.000 near

00:45:13.420 these

00:45:13.700 types

00:45:14.000 of

00:45:14.160 individuals

00:45:14.760 you

00:45:15.840 can

00:45:16.060 perfectly

00:45:16.560 understand

00:45:18.120 why

00:45:18.480 yeah

00:45:19.500 it is

00:45:20.000 still

00:45:20.860 somewhat

00:45:21.200 mysterious

00:45:21.900 to

00:45:22.480 explain

00:45:23.220 but

00:45:23.480 it is

00:45:23.920 it's

00:45:24.880 a genuine

00:45:25.380 phenomenon

00:45:26.360 I have

00:45:27.080 spent

00:45:27.940 a lot

00:45:28.660 of time

00:45:29.160 with

00:45:29.840 great

00:45:30.300 meditation

00:45:30.800 masters

00:45:31.280 and

00:45:31.780 you know

00:45:32.140 I spent

00:45:32.420 some

00:45:33.000 considerable

00:45:33.760 time

00:45:34.280 albeit

00:45:34.960 briefly

00:45:35.740 focused

00:45:36.200 over the

00:45:36.540 course

00:45:36.740 of a

00:45:37.020 month

00:45:37.300 with

00:45:37.680 the

00:45:38.200 Dalai

00:45:38.440 Lama

00:45:38.660 I met

00:45:39.640 him

00:45:39.740 on a

00:45:40.300 number

00:45:40.600 of

00:45:40.720 occasions

00:45:41.020 but

00:45:41.240 I

00:45:41.400 strangely

00:45:42.200 got to

00:45:43.060 be

00:45:43.220 one

00:45:43.440 of his

00:45:43.660 bodyguards

00:45:44.480 for a

00:45:45.360 trip

00:45:46.340 through

00:45:46.580 France

00:45:47.060 so

00:45:49.020 he

00:45:49.240 was

00:45:49.920 on

00:45:50.500 a

00:45:50.640 teaching

00:45:51.240 tour

00:45:51.560 of

00:45:51.740 France

00:45:52.140 and

00:45:52.760 for

00:45:53.240 whatever

00:45:53.500 reason

00:45:53.820 I

00:45:54.160 got

00:45:54.360 to

00:45:54.520 be

00:45:54.740 part

00:45:55.060 of

00:45:55.140 the

00:45:55.320 Buddhist 1.00

00:45:56.240 retinue

00:45:56.840 that

00:45:57.040 was

00:45:57.340 the

00:45:57.980 buffer

00:45:58.360 between

00:45:58.820 the

00:45:59.140 real

00:45:59.400 security

00:45:59.860 guards

00:46:00.300 when he's

00:46:01.060 in

00:46:01.200 France

00:46:01.500 he

00:46:01.640 got

00:46:01.840 their

00:46:04.200 version

00:46:04.660 of

00:46:04.800 secret

00:46:05.020 service

00:46:05.460 protection

00:46:05.960 something

00:46:06.760 he

00:46:07.000 did

00:46:07.280 not

00:46:07.440 get

00:46:07.640 in

00:46:07.740 the

00:46:07.820 United

00:46:08.040 States

00:46:08.380 so

00:46:09.040 there

00:46:09.160 were

00:46:09.220 four

00:46:09.580 guys

00:46:09.880 with

00:46:10.060 guns

00:46:10.420 who

00:46:10.640 were

00:46:10.820 really

00:46:11.360 protecting

00:46:11.760 him

00:46:11.940 but

00:46:12.060 then

00:46:12.160 there

00:46:12.240 was

00:46:12.360 this

00:46:12.540 buffer

00:46:12.900 of

00:46:13.520 students

00:46:14.860 of

00:46:15.160 meditation

00:46:15.660 and

00:46:16.040 people

00:46:16.620 who

00:46:16.800 sat

00:46:17.340 three

00:46:17.800 year

00:46:18.040 retreats

00:46:18.640 in

00:46:18.940 France

00:46:19.680 with

00:46:20.340 various

00:46:20.640 lamas

00:46:21.000 and

00:46:21.580 there

00:46:22.240 were

00:46:22.300 maybe

00:46:22.440 12

00:46:22.880 of

00:46:23.080 us

00:46:23.320 and

00:46:24.160 ironically

00:46:24.660 we had

00:46:25.500 the most

00:46:25.820 conflict

00:46:26.280 with the

00:46:26.640 general

00:46:26.860 public

00:46:27.240 because

00:46:27.520 we were

00:46:27.920 the buffer

00:46:28.400 between

00:46:28.820 the real

00:46:29.560 bodyguards

00:46:30.140 and

00:46:30.500 the public

00:46:31.380 it was

00:46:32.240 a surreal

00:46:32.680 experience

00:46:33.280 to walk

00:46:33.820 into

00:46:33.980 a room

00:46:34.460 more or

00:46:35.840 less

00:46:36.140 continually

00:46:37.320 focused

00:46:37.820 on

00:46:38.160 what

00:46:38.420 could

00:46:38.580 go

00:46:38.800 wrong

00:46:39.280 who

00:46:40.000 was

00:46:40.300 untrustworthy

00:46:41.080 just

00:46:41.720 basically

00:46:42.120 radiating

00:46:42.820 bad

00:46:43.260 vibes

00:46:43.720 of

00:46:44.040 suspicion

00:46:45.340 everywhere

00:46:46.200 and

00:46:47.340 to have

00:46:48.260 over your

00:46:49.040 shoulder

00:46:49.420 the Dalai

00:46:50.200 Lama

00:46:50.420 beaming

00:46:51.060 unconditional

00:46:52.120 acceptance

00:46:52.820 and love

00:46:53.520 and

00:46:53.760 just

00:46:54.420 general

00:46:54.900 ease

00:46:55.400 and

00:46:56.040 it was

00:46:56.280 I must

00:46:57.220 say

00:46:57.360 it was

00:46:57.780 a bad

00:46:58.220 job

00:46:58.740 certainly

00:46:59.400 not where

00:46:59.820 one wanted

00:47:00.600 to be

00:47:01.080 in one's

00:47:01.900 thinking

00:47:02.980 alongside

00:47:03.860 him

00:47:04.300 but

00:47:04.520 it's

00:47:04.700 where

00:47:04.840 one

00:47:05.080 had

00:47:05.300 to be

00:47:05.600 I mean

00:47:05.820 because

00:47:06.040 he really

00:47:06.480 did have

00:47:07.680 security

00:47:08.020 concerns

00:47:08.400 and

00:47:08.760 it's

00:47:09.580 amazing

00:47:10.000 the number

00:47:10.420 of weird

00:47:10.980 people

00:47:11.620 who show

00:47:12.140 up

00:47:12.420 when

00:47:12.820 his

00:47:13.560 presence

00:47:13.880 is

00:47:14.060 announced

00:47:14.440 somewhere

00:47:15.460 but

00:47:16.020 it gave

00:47:16.800 me a chance

00:47:17.200 to spend

00:47:17.580 some time

00:47:18.040 with him

00:47:18.460 and see

00:47:19.100 what he

00:47:19.400 was like

00:47:19.940 again

00:47:20.840 and again

00:47:21.200 and again

00:47:21.560 mingling

00:47:22.600 with

00:47:23.020 strangers

00:47:23.780 of all

00:47:24.240 sorts

00:47:24.600 and

00:47:25.000 yeah

00:47:25.800 he's

00:47:26.000 a very

00:47:27.480 impressive

00:47:28.000 person

00:47:28.860 in that

00:47:29.440 way

00:47:29.720 he does

00:47:30.660 have a

00:47:30.940 kind

00:47:31.220 of

00:47:31.500 laser

00:47:32.320 focus

00:47:32.800 on

00:47:33.420 just

00:47:34.060 connecting

00:47:34.980 with

00:47:35.300 people

00:47:35.660 you know

00:47:35.960 albeit

00:47:36.580 very briefly

00:47:37.440 I mean

00:47:37.660 he'll walk

00:47:38.040 into

00:47:38.220 a lobby

00:47:38.900 of a hotel

00:47:40.440 and there'll be

00:47:41.060 40 people

00:47:42.220 if you'd like

00:47:46.240 to continue

00:47:46.660 listening to

00:47:47.100 this podcast

00:47:47.600 you'll need

00:47:48.460 to subscribe

00:47:48.980 at

00:47:49.300 samharris.org

00:47:50.240 you'll get

00:47:51.000 access to

00:47:51.500 all full-length

00:47:52.340 episodes of

00:47:52.940 the making

00:47:53.200 sense podcast

00:47:53.820 and to other

00:47:54.820 subscriber-only

00:47:55.600 content

00:47:56.100 including

00:47:56.740 bonus episodes

00:47:57.780 and AMAs

00:47:58.680 and the

00:47:59.420 conversations

00:47:59.880 I've been

00:48:00.240 having on

00:48:00.620 the waking

00:48:00.900 up app

00:48:01.360 the making

00:48:02.460 sense podcast

00:48:03.100 is ad-free

00:48:03.820 and relies

00:48:04.700 entirely on

00:48:05.420 listener support

00:48:06.040 and you can

00:48:07.020 subscribe now

00:48:07.760 at

00:48:08.100 samharris.org

00:48:09.000 and

00:48:12.640 .

00:48:22.480 .

00:48:23.760 .

00:48:24.880 .

00:48:26.800 .

00:48:27.000 .

00:48:27.300 .

00:48:27.880 .

00:48:29.020 .

00:48:33.300 .

00:48:34.660 .

00:48:35.380 .

00:48:35.820 .

00:48:36.080 .

00:48:36.120 .

00:48:36.300 .

00:48:36.340 .

00:48:36.860 .

Making Sense - Sam Harris - October 08, 2020

#219 — The Power of Compassion

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript