Making Sense - Sam Harris - #227

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.340 This is Sam Harris.

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00:00:47.000 Okay, no housekeeping today.

00:00:49.980 Today I'm presenting a conversation I had with Stephen Laurez, who is a Belgian neuroscientist

00:00:57.120 and neurologist.

00:00:58.740 He has a clinical practice as well.

00:01:01.880 And he's engaged in a lot of fascinating research, which we don't actually talk about, that will

00:01:07.420 be left for a future conversation.

00:01:09.660 This time around, he wanted to interview me for a book he's doing, and he wanted to talk

00:01:13.980 about meditation.

00:01:14.700 And as the conversation got into some interesting detail, I thought many of you would like to

00:01:20.760 hear it.

00:01:21.540 So this is me being interviewed about meditation, what it is and why one would do it, how it can

00:01:28.220 help us understand the mind scientifically, and the ways in which it can't.

00:01:32.400 And now I bring you Stephen Laurez.

00:01:41.800 I am here with Stephen Laurez.

00:01:43.860 Stephen, nice to meet you.

00:01:45.920 Nice to meet you, Sam.

00:01:47.120 So Stephen, you're working on a book, and you wanted to talk about meditation and consciousness

00:01:53.340 and related things.

00:01:54.460 And so I'm happy to do it and happy to go wherever you want to lead.

00:01:58.000 Thank you for that.

00:01:59.640 Yes, indeed.

00:02:00.400 I actually wrote a book.

00:02:02.280 I was invited to do so by a Flemish small publishing company.

00:02:09.940 And it is about my personal experience.

00:02:15.800 And then as a neuroscientist, how we study the brain of these Buddhist monks, and how as a

00:02:22.900 neurologist, I now actually prescribe meditation.

00:02:26.960 And it turned out to do very well.

00:02:30.920 It was then translated in French and other languages.

00:02:35.060 And now it's coming out in English.

00:02:37.940 And so I'm very, very happy to have your testimony and how, when, and why you started to meditate.

00:02:49.020 Nice.

00:02:50.480 Just so my listeners know, so you're a neuroscientist and a neurologist.

00:02:56.960 So you have clinical practice now?

00:02:59.300 You're in your hospital?

00:03:01.400 Yes, right.

00:03:02.220 I'm in the University Hospital of Liège.

00:03:06.060 I'm an MD, a neurologist.

00:03:08.300 Our area of expertise actually is the damaged brain.

00:03:12.200 So I created the coma science group and now had the GIGA consciousness research unit where

00:03:22.060 we try then from a scientific point of view, basically to understand human consciousness,

00:03:28.080 which, as you know, is one of the biggest mysteries for science to solve.

00:03:33.020 And we do that not only by looking at patients who have a severe acquired brain damage after

00:03:39.820 trauma or hemorrhage or survivors of cardiac arrest.

00:03:43.880 So that's coma and related states, also near-death experiences.

00:03:48.160 But then we also have a lab looking at what happens in your brain and mind when you are

00:03:54.680 anesthetized, when you're giving these narcotic drugs or psychedelic drugs, for that matter.

00:04:01.100 And finally, we have a strong tradition here and a whole lab looking at hypnosis and its

00:04:07.860 medical use.

00:04:08.800 We have over 10,000 patients who had surgeries, like taking out your thyroid or a tumor in the

00:04:17.360 breast where anywhere you would have general anesthesia or pharmacological coma.

00:04:22.500 But here people are undergoing this intervention while basically thinking about their holidays

00:04:28.500 and in this hypnotic state.

00:04:31.260 Wow.

00:04:32.400 You've had thousands of people have surgery without anesthesia, under hypnosis?

00:04:36.620 Yes.

00:04:37.280 Yes.

00:04:37.520 Wow.

00:04:37.740 So this is a wonderful woman who's called Marie-Lise Femorville, who's an anesthesiologist.

00:04:42.800 And she's really a pioneer who introduced hypnosis.

00:04:47.620 And as you know, this is what we know from television and theater, doing tricks.

00:04:55.560 But it's also something that illustrates, I think, again, the power of the mind and how,

00:05:01.300 as she has shown, you can use this in the operating room during surgery, but also now in the pain

00:05:10.820 clinic.

00:05:11.840 So yeah, that's what we do with the team.

00:05:17.480 But talking about meditation for me is something I, it's out of my comfort zone.

00:05:22.920 It's not something that I, you know, would have predicted 20 years ago.

00:05:28.680 Yeah.

00:05:28.840 So I'm happy to get into it with you.

00:05:30.600 So I think your first question was how I got into it.

00:05:33.480 And it was, in my case, and this is really not unusual, my interest was first precipitated

00:05:40.980 by a drug experience.

00:05:42.560 In my case, it was MDMA, otherwise known as ecstasy.

00:05:45.360 And I think I was 18, and I had an experience there which was not what's the all-too-common

00:05:55.860 one now.

00:05:56.440 I wasn't at a rave or a party.

00:05:58.880 It wasn't really a recreational use of that drug.

00:06:03.100 I took it knowing its potential to reveal something interesting about the nature of my mind.

00:06:09.700 And I took it very much in the spirit of investigating my mind and seeing what transformative experiences

00:06:17.860 might be on the other side of my ordinary waking consciousness.

00:06:22.440 And so the experience itself wasn't so directly relevant to what I later came to consider the

00:06:30.300 true purpose of meditation.

00:06:31.900 But it revealed for me the fact that it was possible to have a very different experience

00:06:38.520 of myself and the world and my sense of my being in the world.

00:06:44.640 And just it was possible to have a much better life than I was going to have by just living

00:06:50.640 out the implications of my own conditioning and tendencies at that point.

00:06:55.980 So it set me on this path of self-inquiry, really, where I then explicitly studied techniques

00:07:04.720 of meditation to try to explore the landscape of mind further, directly through introspection.

00:07:11.980 And I've taken other psychedelics since, and so psychedelics have been a part of this.

00:07:18.760 But they are separable.

00:07:20.520 I mean, perhaps you want to talk about that.

00:07:21.940 But there's no question that, but for that initial experience, it seems pretty likely

00:07:27.820 that I may never have grown interested in meditation or anything like it.

00:07:34.580 So the when was you were 18 years old, curious, and then taking these drugs to kind of explore

00:07:46.440 changes in self-perception, and then you turned to meditation.

00:07:52.160 And what kinds of meditation did you try?

00:07:58.600 I had been given a book by Ram Dass, who originally was named Richard Alpert, and he, along with Timothy

00:08:07.220 Leary, led some of those initial experiments at Harvard in the 60s, studying LSD and was also

00:08:15.360 fired from Harvard, along with Tim Leary, for their misadventures in handing out LSD to all comers.

00:08:24.020 He then, many people know his story, he went to India, he met his teacher, he came back

00:08:29.800 with a very long beard and in a dress, calling himself Ram Dass, and

00:08:35.120 he then was a kind of spiritual teacher for many, many years.

00:08:40.740 He only recently died.

00:08:42.920 And so this was around, this was 87.

00:08:46.120 I sat my first meditation retreat with him.

00:08:50.400 And there, he was teaching an eclectic mix of practices.

00:08:55.780 I mean, he was, it was really a kind of buffet of spirituality.

00:08:58.900 But part of it was Buddhist meditation, in particular, Vipassana or mindfulness meditation.

00:09:07.480 And that was the practice I most connected with on that retreat.

00:09:12.700 And then I went on to sit, you know, explicitly Buddhist Vipassana retreats, you know, in silence

00:09:18.240 after that.

00:09:19.500 And spent a lot of time studying with my friend Joseph Goldstein, you know, who was one of my

00:09:26.020 first Vipassana teachers, and sat with his teacher, Saida Upandita, a Burmese meditation

00:09:33.340 master, and then eventually migrated away from strict Vipassana for some reasons I think we'll

00:09:41.920 probably talk about, just the logic of the practice and the kind of goal seeking that was

00:09:48.360 built into it, eventually seemed mistaken to me, or at least unnecessary, and also a source

00:09:55.540 of, you know, a fair amount of striving and psychological suffering.

00:09:59.420 And then I connected with, you know, so-called non-dual practices, both within and outside

00:10:05.820 of Buddhism.

00:10:07.180 And that did change, it did significantly shift my approach to meditation, but that took a few

00:10:14.760 years to happen.

00:10:15.500 And so there were several years there where I was mostly, never exclusively, but certainly

00:10:20.760 mostly practicing, you know, what people in the West know as mindfulness now, but, you

00:10:26.780 know, very much under a kind of Burmese Theravada Buddhist influence, and then migrated to the

00:10:35.360 Tibetan practice of Dzogchen, but also influenced by some teachers and teachings I encountered outside

00:10:41.360 of Buddhism.

00:10:42.360 And, yeah, it's all of that.

00:10:44.840 During my 20s, that absorbed a fair amount of time.

00:10:49.020 I spent about two years on silent retreat in the decade of my 20s, and had dropped out of

00:10:55.480 school and, you know, wasn't quite sure how I was going to integrate all of these things.

00:10:59.700 And then only after that decade did I return to school and get a PhD in neuroscience and

00:11:05.720 begin to get all of my interests aligned.

00:11:10.180 And it's taken some time, but, you know, now I'm in a position to have the kinds of conversations

00:11:15.320 I want to have about the nature of the mind and what can be understood about it or not based

00:11:21.860 on first-person methods like meditation.

00:11:24.500 Wow.

00:11:26.500 So, how would you define these non-dual practices, and how they differ from mindfulness?

00:11:37.980 I think it's best understood, certainly by anyone who has tried to meditate, by describing

00:11:45.720 the usual starting point for the practice of meditation.

00:11:49.380 So, if someone decides they want to meditate and they're taught a method, and this can

00:11:55.200 be mindfulness, this can be, you know, some other method like transcendental meditation,

00:12:00.480 you know, mantra meditation, could be a visualization practice, it can be any use of their attention.

00:12:06.480 But most of us start that project from a specific point of view.

00:12:12.480 I mean, people tend to close their eyes and, you know, if it's ordinary mindfulness practice,

00:12:17.720 they might be told to focus on the breath.

00:12:20.640 And so, if you close your eyes and you try to pay attention to your breath, most people

00:12:26.660 will feel that their consciousness, their awareness, is a kind of a locus of attention in the head.

00:12:35.480 They're paying attention from someplace, and it's very likely in their head, behind their eyes,

00:12:41.420 and they can aim their attention at the object of meditation.

00:12:47.000 So, if they're aiming their attention at the breath, whether, you know, at the tip of the nose

00:12:51.360 or in the rising and falling of their chest or abdomen, there's a sense of being a subject

00:12:59.140 in the head that can now strategically pay attention to something.

00:13:04.240 And, of course, the real obstacle to doing this successfully is distraction, getting lost in thought.

00:13:12.260 And so, thoughts are continually arising, and you're getting pulled away from the object of meditation,

00:13:16.760 and then you bring your attention back to the breath or to sounds or to a visualization or a mantra,

00:13:23.080 whatever you're focusing on.

00:13:24.800 And as concentration builds, this can become more and more successful, right?

00:13:30.080 So, you can actually let, attention can rest on the object of meditation for longer periods of time.

00:13:35.440 And if you're practicing mindfulness, you can get good enough so that you can even notice thoughts arising

00:13:40.940 as objects in consciousness, rather than just be merely taken away by them in each moment.

00:13:48.640 And many interesting changes in one's states of mind and emotion can happen here.

00:13:56.480 But, if you're practicing dualistically, it more or less always feels like there's a meditator,

00:14:03.660 there's a subject who is paying attention.

00:14:07.480 There's the subject, which is, you know, the source of awareness itself,

00:14:11.060 and then there's the object of awareness, whether it's the breath or sound or whatever.

00:14:15.900 And that point of view, that duality, that subject-object perception, is an illusion.

00:14:23.520 And it is the primary illusion that meditation is designed to cut through.

00:14:29.760 And if you're practicing really well in this dualistic way, that will occasionally happen,

00:14:36.460 and it may happen a fair amount.

00:14:38.820 It can happen if you go on retreat and you do nothing but meditate for 12 to 18 hours a day,

00:14:44.360 and your mindfulness gets very continuous and effortless.

00:14:47.380 You can find that this subject-object distance collapses again and again and again,

00:14:53.720 and so you'll hear a sound, for instance.

00:14:56.220 And in that brief moment of just the impingement of the sound on your eardrum,

00:15:01.540 you might notice that there is no sense of one who is hearing the sound.

00:15:06.000 There's just hearing.

00:15:07.100 There's no, you know, you in the head listening to a bird out there.

00:15:11.120 There's just this ineffable appearance of hearing that is unified.

00:15:18.300 The subject drops away, and the object drops away, really,

00:15:21.580 and there's just kind of the unity of knowing and its appearances.

00:15:26.520 But again, it's haphazard.

00:15:28.200 You don't have any control over it.

00:15:30.180 When it stops happening, you're left thinking,

00:15:32.680 oh, that was interesting.

00:15:34.260 How do I get back to that?

00:15:35.480 And it seems under that way of practicing that the only way back to that

00:15:40.640 is to once again summon this heroic level of concentration and continuity of mindfulness.

00:15:47.900 And what non-dual paths of practice have understood

00:15:52.700 is that there really is a fundamental illusion to cut through there.

00:15:57.360 It really is not the case that you need massive, sustained concentration

00:16:03.600 to get to this experience of unity or non-duality.

00:16:09.480 In fact, it's already the case in every moment of consciousness.

00:16:13.740 I mean, consciousness itself doesn't feel like a center in the head.

00:16:19.740 It doesn't feel like a spotlight of attention being aimed at its objects.

00:16:24.120 There is no self in the head or thinker of thoughts.

00:16:29.460 There's just this open condition in which everything is appearing,

00:16:33.500 and it can be recognized as such directly.

00:16:37.100 And so it's that recognition that really is the starting point of non-dual practice,

00:16:42.860 a practice like Dzogchen.

00:16:44.380 And really, you can't begin practicing it until you recognize

00:16:48.020 that this is the way consciousness already is.

00:16:51.360 But once you do, then your mindfulness becomes synonymous with that recognition.

00:16:57.600 So what you become mindful of thereafter is not the breath or sounds or anything else per se,

00:17:05.900 though you may in fact be aware of the breath or sounds or whatever happens to be appearing.

00:17:11.360 What you become mindful of is that there's no subject in the middle of consciousness.

00:17:18.720 The practice itself becomes simply familiarizing yourself with this intrinsic property of consciousness

00:17:26.440 that you basically have spent every moment of your life overlooking,

00:17:31.020 you know, prior to learning how to practice in that way.

00:17:34.100 And so that is the difference.

00:17:35.500 I mean, again, it's somewhat paradoxical to talk about

00:17:38.480 and it can be confusing to many people,

00:17:40.900 but I think most people realize that, you know,

00:17:43.580 whether they're trying to meditate or not,

00:17:45.500 they do feel like a subject.

00:17:49.000 They don't feel identical to their experience.

00:17:51.920 They feel like they're at the center of their experience.

00:17:54.800 They're having an experience.

00:17:56.860 They're appropriating it from a place in the head.

00:18:00.800 And that's the central illusion that is cut through in non-dual practice.

00:18:07.860 Thanks.

00:18:08.720 So we briefly discussed the when and the how,

00:18:11.940 and you mentioned the why, curiosity, as I understood,

00:18:16.980 and also mentioned to try and live a better life.

00:18:21.800 Can you say a little bit more why you continue to meditate

00:18:26.440 and what are your current favorite exercises?

00:18:31.120 Well, so the why, there are really two whys,

00:18:34.280 which can be more or less important for people.

00:18:37.900 I mean, the most common why,

00:18:39.860 the why that is certainly advocated by the Buddhist tradition generally,

00:18:45.680 isn't really intellectual curiosity.

00:18:49.680 It's much more a matter of overcoming suffering.

00:18:52.280 We all feel unhappy to one or another degree in our lives.

00:18:58.300 It's not to say that happiness doesn't come, but it also goes.

00:19:03.340 You just can't stay joyful all the time.

00:19:05.980 And if you just wait long enough,

00:19:08.660 you'll feel frustrated and annoyed and angry and sad and fearful.

00:19:14.180 And just there's a lot of psychological pain

00:19:17.860 that most of us experience fairly regularly.

00:19:21.280 And meditation is offered as a method of

00:19:27.440 having some fundamental insights into that process

00:19:31.440 such that you don't keep suffering to the same degree

00:19:35.620 and in all the ordinary ways.

00:19:38.380 And it certainly holds out the promise

00:19:40.220 that it might be possible in some sense not to suffer at all,

00:19:44.880 to actually fully escape the logic

00:19:48.300 by which you tend to make yourself miserable.

00:19:52.260 And it has a lot to do with having insight

00:19:54.420 into the nature of thought itself

00:19:56.940 and breaking one's identification with thought.

00:19:59.680 So much of our psychological suffering

00:20:01.420 is mediated by our thinking about the past and the future

00:20:05.880 and in failing to connect with the present

00:20:08.740 because we're thinking so much

00:20:10.780 and not noticing that we're lost in thought.

00:20:13.380 So my motivation,

00:20:17.340 while it was always somewhat intellectual as well,

00:20:22.120 it certainly was primarily about living a better life

00:20:25.600 in the sense of just not suffering unnecessarily

00:20:29.520 and just actually being happier,

00:20:31.720 recovering from the ordinary collisions in life

00:20:35.640 that cause psychological pain,

00:20:37.960 you know, recovering more quickly.

00:20:39.180 And I think that certainly is the most common motivation.

00:20:43.720 And, you know, for me,

00:20:45.100 both of these motivations continue.

00:20:47.640 What's changed for me is that

00:20:49.020 it's not so much a sense of practicing

00:20:51.860 deliberately anymore.

00:20:54.760 I mean, occasionally, you know,

00:20:55.420 I do sit and meditate,

00:20:57.780 but it's much more a sense of always practicing

00:21:01.820 in that my moment-to-moment experience

00:21:04.620 is always being punctuated by,

00:21:07.480 you know, what I would call meditation.

00:21:08.940 You know, what would qualify as meditation

00:21:11.640 if I happen to be, you know,

00:21:12.940 formally in a session of meditation,

00:21:15.680 which is to say a recognition

00:21:17.400 of the way consciousness is.

00:21:20.180 And it happens automatically.

00:21:23.600 You know, it doesn't happen all the time.

00:21:25.300 It's, you know, I spend an impressive amount of time

00:21:28.760 still lost in thought,

00:21:30.320 but when I'm not lost in thought,

00:21:32.160 the thing that I become aware of

00:21:34.420 is this non-duality of subject and object in consciousness.

00:21:40.200 Figure and ground have flipped here a little bit,

00:21:42.800 which is, in the beginning,

00:21:44.240 I was trying to get to this experience,

00:21:47.540 and meditation was a formal attempt to do that.

00:21:51.560 Initially, I was, it was haphazard,

00:21:53.280 and then I was doing it more or less on demand.

00:21:57.620 But now there's much more of a sense of,

00:22:00.820 this is the way consciousness is,

00:22:03.640 and much of normal life

00:22:06.660 is my inadvertently overlooking that.

00:22:10.080 But when I'm, when I no longer overlook it,

00:22:13.260 you know, in any given moment,

00:22:14.960 it is what, you know, what I'm restored to,

00:22:18.440 it no longer feels like a practice of any kind.

00:22:21.300 In fact, it's, you know,

00:22:23.200 when one is actually, you know, really meditating,

00:22:26.260 one isn't doing something.

00:22:27.960 One is doing less than one normally does.

00:22:31.140 You know, it's simply the absence of distraction.

00:22:34.160 You know, once you know what to pay attention to,

00:22:36.560 it is simply the absence of being lost in thought.

00:22:39.460 For that moment.

00:22:42.480 And you, were you suffering as an 18-year-old?

00:22:48.280 Were you in a crisis, that decade of dropout?

00:22:51.520 What was, what's your personal story there?

00:22:56.180 Well, I had had many experiences of intense suffering,

00:23:01.820 you know, but completely ordinary,

00:23:03.260 nothing extraordinary,

00:23:04.340 just completely ordinary sorts of suffering

00:23:06.760 that people experience in life.

00:23:08.420 But I, I'd had them as a teenager.

00:23:11.620 You know, when I was 13, my best friend died.

00:23:14.720 When I was 17, my father died.

00:23:17.880 When I was 18, you know,

00:23:19.980 just proximate to this experience with MDMA.

00:23:23.200 My, my girlfriend had broken up with me in college and freshman year.

00:23:28.260 You know, these are very ordinary experiences.

00:23:30.400 Now, I mean, some people don't have anyone die

00:23:33.220 until they're a little bit older than I was.

00:23:35.800 But if you just, you just wait around,

00:23:38.600 you know, people are going to start dying on you.

00:23:40.580 And so, you know, I was not living in a civil war or,

00:23:44.440 I mean, there was really, there was nothing unusual happening in my life.

00:23:47.220 I had a very lucky life at that point, all things considered.

00:23:52.620 But, you know, those experiences hit me really hard.

00:23:58.580 I was really unhappy.

00:24:00.960 For instance, after my girlfriend broke up with me in college,

00:24:04.760 you know, I was probably in some kind of clinical state of depression

00:24:08.000 for several months after that.

00:24:11.320 I was not myself.

00:24:13.960 And it was because I was thinking incessantly about what I had lost, right?

00:24:20.600 I mean, I just, I was meditating on loss and loneliness and grief

00:24:25.260 and had absolutely no insight into this process.

00:24:30.140 I mean, I was just a mere puppet being blown around

00:24:33.980 by whatever this next train of thought would be, right?

00:24:40.020 And that's everyone's condition.

00:24:42.260 I mean, if you do not see an alternative to being identified

00:24:47.020 with the next linguistic or imagistic appearance in your mind,

00:24:53.340 I mean, the next emotionally laden statement

00:24:57.240 that, you know, seems to appear in the voice of your own mind,

00:25:00.100 you know, whether it's self-judgment

00:25:02.260 or something that produces anxiety

00:25:04.740 or something that produces sadness over a loss you've suffered,

00:25:10.020 if there's no space around this automaticity of thought,

00:25:14.620 there's no alternative but to be living out the emotional implications

00:25:19.640 of whatever the thought happens to be.

00:25:21.780 And most of us, most of the time, have at best mediocre thoughts.

00:25:28.260 We're not tending to tell ourselves a story

00:25:31.880 about how good life is,

00:25:35.020 how grateful we are for all that we have,

00:25:39.240 how, you know, beautiful the people in our lives are

00:25:42.860 and how lucky we are to be with them.

00:25:45.760 I mean, you can decide to shape your thoughts

00:25:48.660 along very deliberately wholesome lines

00:25:52.240 that will improve your mood.

00:25:54.180 And that's a totally useful practice

00:25:56.200 that is, you know, very much supportive of mindfulness

00:25:59.200 and these other practices we're talking about.

00:26:01.460 But most of us don't tend to do that automatically.

00:26:05.140 Most of us think about all of our disappointments.

00:26:09.020 We notice everything that's wrong.

00:26:10.580 We have a long list of things we wish would happen.

00:26:15.040 So we tend to be captured by a story of deficiency, right?

00:26:20.920 Things are not yet good enough.

00:26:22.860 And we're telling ourselves a story that

00:26:25.180 if only we could change these things about our lives,

00:26:29.740 if only I could get another girlfriend, right?

00:26:32.280 If only I could meet somebody.

00:26:33.580 That was almost certainly a story

00:26:34.940 I was telling myself at that point.

00:26:37.020 Or if only I could get back to the girlfriend

00:26:38.700 who broke up with me.

00:26:40.340 That self-talk seems to promise

00:26:43.800 something which proves to be a mirage.

00:26:46.260 This idea that if we could only arrange our lives perfectly,

00:26:50.920 there would be a good enough reason

00:26:52.800 for attention to truly rest in the present moment

00:26:56.540 and be satisfied.

00:26:57.360 But unless you have a mind that is capable of that,

00:27:02.020 that's not what happens.

00:27:03.120 I mean, you get what you want

00:27:04.280 and you find that you simply want other things at that point.

00:27:08.360 And again, your happiness appears to be contingent

00:27:11.420 upon satisfying those desires.

00:27:14.200 I'm not saying it's not better to get what you want

00:27:16.460 than to have just one disappointment after the next.

00:27:20.820 I mean, yes, there are ordinary sources of pleasure

00:27:23.460 and happiness in this life,

00:27:24.800 but none of them are durable sources of happiness.

00:27:29.520 All of these contingent sources of happiness

00:27:31.380 need to be continually propped up by our efforts.

00:27:35.100 They all tend to degrade.

00:27:37.280 And, you know, you accomplish one goal,

00:27:40.620 and no matter how wonderful an experience it is to do that,

00:27:45.100 you know, it doesn't take 15 minutes

00:27:47.020 before people are asking you,

00:27:48.940 you know, what are you going to do next, right?

00:27:50.540 I mean, nothing gets finely banked

00:27:53.400 as the foundation upon which you can rest

00:27:56.580 and be happy, you know, every moment thereafter.

00:28:00.100 So meditation is the practice of understanding

00:28:04.720 something about the mechanics of this dissatisfaction

00:28:08.000 and this search for happiness,

00:28:09.220 and to deliberately step off the hamster wheel here.

00:28:14.960 I mean, just to see that, you know,

00:28:16.360 if you're running on this wheel,

00:28:18.560 on some level you're not getting anywhere,

00:28:21.440 and the only way to truly come to rest

00:28:24.760 is to step off it.

00:28:26.620 That resonates with my own experience.

00:28:30.260 You mentioned your crisis,

00:28:32.920 losing your best friend,

00:28:34.420 your father, girlfriend.

00:28:36.520 It seems quite often the case

00:28:38.720 that we seemingly need these difficult moments

00:28:44.820 to go and discover things like meditation.

00:28:50.020 It's also what I see in my outpatient clinics,

00:28:54.040 and maybe that's a pity.

00:28:55.500 People actually tell me it's a pity.

00:28:58.320 I had, you know,

00:29:00.360 I had this burnout or depression or whatever,

00:29:05.940 and I wished I would have discovered meditation before that.

00:29:12.020 So strangely, it's something that is,

00:29:16.760 I think also maybe with your community and your app,

00:29:21.380 it's something that you must often hear,

00:29:24.120 that people come to this

00:29:26.180 because they don't feel or go well,

00:29:31.220 and maybe we should invest more in prevention

00:29:33.980 and talk about this before we...

00:29:38.960 What do you think about that?

00:29:40.900 Again, it's difficult to talk about

00:29:42.800 because it is somewhat paradoxical.

00:29:46.080 I mean, this is the line one continually walks

00:29:49.260 in describing meditation and its benefits

00:29:52.880 because it's not that nothing else matters, right?

00:29:56.960 It's not that there aren't ordinary requisites for happiness

00:30:01.760 that you want to recommend to people.

00:30:03.920 And yet, yes, it is good to have good relationships.

00:30:07.900 Being integrated in a community

00:30:09.860 and having people you love and who love you,

00:30:12.800 who can support you,

00:30:14.700 and who you in turn support,

00:30:16.220 I mean, all of that is,

00:30:17.940 for most people most of the time,

00:30:20.660 a necessary component of being a happy person.

00:30:25.080 And yet, there is an illusion here.

00:30:27.960 It's not stable.

00:30:29.560 And all of that is made better

00:30:31.220 by discovering

00:30:32.780 that the true foundation for psychological well-being

00:30:38.020 doesn't rest on even those relationships.

00:30:41.920 To have the best relationship,

00:30:44.300 to have the best marriage,

00:30:45.540 on some level,

00:30:46.760 you really need to already be happy.

00:30:49.220 You need to bring into that relationship

00:30:51.420 not your need for companionship,

00:30:54.920 but your ability to simply love the other person, right?

00:31:00.480 It's not transactional.

00:31:01.680 It's not,

00:31:02.260 I'll love you if you love me.

00:31:04.780 It's,

00:31:05.520 you're already happy

00:31:07.280 and you deeply want happiness

00:31:10.380 for this other person.

00:31:11.540 You're not extracting something from them

00:31:14.100 for your own benefit,

00:31:16.160 though you are getting a lot of benefit

00:31:18.680 by being with them,

00:31:19.960 but you're already,

00:31:20.880 you know,

00:31:21.260 the center of gravity of your well-being

00:31:23.180 is already,

00:31:24.700 you know,

00:31:24.920 over your own feet,

00:31:26.760 I mean,

00:31:26.940 where you stand.

00:31:28.220 You're not leaning into them

00:31:29.860 in a way that,

00:31:30.900 that makes the whole enterprise precarious.

00:31:34.920 But again,

00:31:35.720 this is paradoxical

00:31:36.760 because I wouldn't want to say

00:31:38.020 that it's not important

00:31:39.500 to have the other person,

00:31:41.280 but there's no question

00:31:43.000 that relationships get healthier and healthier

00:31:45.280 the more you on some level

00:31:47.580 can be just as happy

00:31:49.760 when you're alone in a room.

00:31:52.440 When the one you love

00:31:53.520 leaves the room,

00:31:55.460 you know,

00:31:55.720 you're not diminished by that.

00:31:58.680 And there's kind of two levels

00:32:00.600 at which we can seek well-being.

00:32:03.520 And, you know,

00:32:04.060 one level is to continue

00:32:05.600 to do all the things

00:32:06.660 that matter

00:32:07.900 or seem to matter

00:32:08.900 for most people

00:32:10.060 most of the time.

00:32:10.820 So yes,

00:32:11.220 it's better to be healthy

00:32:12.280 than sick.

00:32:13.140 It's better to be comfortable

00:32:14.740 than uncomfortable.

00:32:15.820 It's better to have

00:32:17.020 financial resources

00:32:18.240 than to not have them.

00:32:19.880 And all of these things

00:32:20.700 remain true.

00:32:22.460 And yet,

00:32:23.220 the deeper truth is

00:32:24.540 you're only going to be as happy

00:32:26.400 as you can be

00:32:28.520 based on what you're doing

00:32:29.900 with your attention

00:32:30.640 in each moment.

00:32:31.720 And if you're

00:32:33.020 just habitually lost in thought,

00:32:35.600 and thinking

00:32:37.180 crappy thoughts

00:32:38.900 about what just happened

00:32:39.700 to you on social media,

00:32:41.300 you know,

00:32:41.520 whatever the actual character

00:32:43.560 of your life,

00:32:44.700 you're not in a position

00:32:46.000 to enjoy it.

00:32:47.160 And it is, in fact,

00:32:48.260 also true

00:32:48.980 that there are people

00:32:49.780 whose minds are such

00:32:51.320 that they can be

00:32:53.080 deeply happy

00:32:54.020 even in conditions

00:32:55.640 that would drive

00:32:56.980 most people

00:32:57.680 totally crazy.

00:32:59.440 You know,

00:33:00.120 I have studied

00:33:01.180 with people

00:33:01.660 who spent,

00:33:02.500 you know,

00:33:03.360 decades in caves,

00:33:04.680 just meditating,

00:33:06.280 right?

00:33:06.480 You put the average person

00:33:07.760 in a cave

00:33:08.460 and separate him or her

00:33:10.280 from everything

00:33:11.100 they want out of life

00:33:12.540 and everything they love

00:33:13.520 in this world,

00:33:14.700 and they'll go insane.

00:33:17.320 And they'll go insane

00:33:18.820 based on

00:33:19.780 an inability

00:33:21.260 to pay attention

00:33:23.620 in a very specific way.

00:33:25.780 You know,

00:33:26.000 again,

00:33:26.340 there's something paradoxical

00:33:28.020 here,

00:33:28.960 but it's

00:33:29.580 the paradox

00:33:30.620 is resolved

00:33:31.400 by

00:33:31.940 our doing

00:33:33.660 both sets

00:33:35.080 of wise things

00:33:36.640 simultaneously.

00:33:37.740 You want to have

00:33:38.900 a good life,

00:33:39.740 you want to do work

00:33:41.140 you find meaningful,

00:33:42.600 you want to participate

00:33:43.680 in the world

00:33:44.840 in ways that are

00:33:46.020 fun

00:33:46.560 and creative

00:33:47.400 and connect you

00:33:49.100 to other people,

00:33:49.960 and you want to recognize

00:33:51.500 this thing

00:33:52.940 about the nature

00:33:53.620 of your own mind.

00:33:54.580 In my book,

00:33:57.380 I argue

00:33:58.260 for

00:33:59.040 meditation courses

00:34:00.740 in school.

00:34:03.440 Maybe just the way

00:34:04.780 we have

00:34:05.300 specific teachers

00:34:07.000 teaching,

00:34:08.480 you know,

00:34:08.800 giving physical

00:34:10.100 education

00:34:11.280 and

00:34:11.640 it's important

00:34:13.080 to take care

00:34:13.760 of our body,

00:34:14.480 but

00:34:14.580 I feel

00:34:15.860 we neglect

00:34:16.940 the emotional

00:34:18.560 well-being

00:34:19.220 in our

00:34:20.120 educational

00:34:20.940 system.

00:34:22.200 There's wonderful

00:34:22.960 things happening

00:34:24.300 but nothing

00:34:25.520 structurally,

00:34:26.520 at least not

00:34:27.140 in Europe,

00:34:28.280 but I don't

00:34:28.800 think it's

00:34:29.600 the case

00:34:30.100 in the States

00:34:31.080 that still

00:34:32.120 education is

00:34:32.880 very much

00:34:33.420 about acquiring

00:34:34.680 knowledge

00:34:35.280 and maybe

00:34:37.100 we could

00:34:38.620 and should

00:34:39.120 do better.

00:34:39.900 What's your

00:34:40.720 opinion on that?

00:34:43.620 Yeah,

00:34:44.040 that's something

00:34:44.720 my wife,

00:34:45.340 Annika,

00:34:45.720 has focused on

00:34:46.640 a lot.

00:34:47.500 She's taught

00:34:47.920 mindfulness

00:34:48.420 in schools,

00:34:50.860 you know,

00:34:51.040 both the school

00:34:51.620 that my daughters

00:34:52.420 go to

00:34:52.860 and other schools.

00:34:54.300 for some

00:34:54.700 years and

00:34:55.820 yeah,

00:34:56.460 it's amazing.

00:34:57.200 Kids can

00:34:58.060 really learn

00:34:58.880 this.

00:34:59.860 I think

00:35:00.380 probably

00:35:01.700 six years

00:35:03.120 old is

00:35:03.620 about the

00:35:04.820 earliest

00:35:05.260 that you

00:35:05.660 can

00:35:05.880 profitably

00:35:06.920 start,

00:35:07.980 but

00:35:08.200 yeah,

00:35:08.900 I mean,

00:35:09.100 kids can

00:35:09.760 learn to

00:35:11.260 initially

00:35:12.280 simply become

00:35:13.240 more aware

00:35:13.920 of what

00:35:14.440 they're feeling.

00:35:16.520 You know,

00:35:16.680 a six-year-old

00:35:17.300 who can

00:35:17.640 recognize

00:35:18.440 specific

00:35:19.560 emotions

00:35:20.100 clearly

00:35:20.860 and see

00:35:21.480 how

00:35:21.860 they

00:35:22.680 motivate

00:35:23.700 him or

00:35:24.500 her

00:35:24.660 to

00:35:24.860 behave

00:35:25.180 in

00:35:25.360 certain

00:35:25.580 ways.

00:35:26.620 That's

00:35:27.100 an amazing

00:35:28.500 skill

00:35:29.040 to teach

00:35:29.800 and

00:35:30.440 I mean,

00:35:31.520 it's the

00:35:31.880 first step

00:35:32.660 toward

00:35:33.280 the primary

00:35:34.680 value

00:35:35.340 of

00:35:35.800 living an

00:35:37.020 examined

00:35:37.360 life

00:35:37.880 that

00:35:38.160 was so

00:35:39.120 central

00:35:40.120 to

00:35:40.380 Western

00:35:40.700 philosophy

00:35:41.240 for

00:35:41.840 at least

00:35:43.080 a thousand

00:35:43.500 years or

00:35:44.020 so,

00:35:44.560 and then

00:35:45.000 we lost

00:35:46.100 it

00:35:46.360 in

00:35:46.820 the

00:35:46.960 West.

00:35:47.300 I mean,

00:35:47.420 this is

00:35:47.600 why so

00:35:47.980 many

00:35:48.220 people

00:35:48.820 like

00:35:49.020 myself

00:35:49.420 have

00:35:49.720 gravitated

00:35:50.860 toward

00:35:51.260 Eastern

00:35:52.100 traditions

00:35:52.900 to at

00:35:53.340 least

00:35:53.480 initially

00:35:54.200 to learn

00:35:54.820 these

00:35:55.320 techniques

00:35:55.760 because

00:35:56.160 the value

00:35:57.200 of

00:35:57.400 wisdom,

00:35:58.420 wisdom as

00:35:59.180 opposed to

00:35:59.760 mere

00:36:00.100 knowledge,

00:36:01.420 is something

00:36:01.840 that,

00:36:02.520 it's not

00:36:02.880 that it

00:36:03.180 ever

00:36:03.740 completely

00:36:04.420 disappeared

00:36:04.940 in the

00:36:05.200 West,

00:36:05.580 but it

00:36:06.640 got

00:36:07.020 genuinely

00:36:08.020 submerged

00:36:08.800 by other

00:36:09.640 priorities,

00:36:10.880 and it

00:36:11.360 certainly

00:36:11.700 has been

00:36:12.340 the case

00:36:12.720 for now

00:36:13.580 centuries

00:36:14.140 that if

00:36:15.000 you're a

00:36:15.260 Western

00:36:15.540 philosopher,

00:36:17.000 that carries

00:36:18.480 absolutely

00:36:19.640 no implication

00:36:20.540 that you're

00:36:21.520 doing something

00:36:22.380 that entails

00:36:23.960 living a

00:36:24.880 better life,

00:36:25.760 right?

00:36:25.920 I mean,

00:36:26.060 there need

00:36:26.600 be no

00:36:27.040 connection

00:36:27.740 between

00:36:28.400 philosophy

00:36:29.940 and

00:36:30.660 well-being

00:36:31.880 or living

00:36:33.260 an ethical

00:36:34.040 life,

00:36:35.020 being a

00:36:35.800 benign

00:36:36.360 person at

00:36:37.260 a minimum

00:36:37.620 in this

00:36:38.120 world.

00:36:38.940 And so

00:36:39.120 you can

00:36:39.260 have some

00:36:39.480 of the

00:36:39.660 great

00:36:40.040 philosophers

00:36:41.160 of the

00:36:42.480 Western

00:36:42.780 canon

00:36:43.220 who were

00:36:44.320 just,

00:36:45.100 you know,

00:36:45.420 almighty

00:36:46.060 neurotics

00:36:46.880 and,

00:36:47.980 you know,

00:36:48.200 toxic

00:36:48.740 people,

00:36:49.560 and that

00:36:50.720 says nothing

00:36:51.460 derogatory

00:36:52.640 about their

00:36:53.140 philosophy,

00:36:53.940 right?

00:36:54.140 So you have

00:36:54.420 someone like

00:36:54.880 Nietzsche

00:36:55.360 or Schopenhauer,

00:36:56.680 I mean,

00:36:56.900 just,

00:36:57.260 you know,

00:36:57.800 Schopenhauer

00:36:58.340 threw his

00:36:58.920 housekeeper

00:36:59.460 down a

00:36:59.840 flight of

00:37:00.200 stairs,

00:37:00.960 Wittgenstein

00:37:01.400 who just,

00:37:02.380 you know,

00:37:02.620 beat pupils

00:37:03.700 and treat

00:37:04.820 his colleagues

00:37:05.980 terribly.

00:37:06.880 These are

00:37:07.520 not people

00:37:07.960 to emulate

00:37:08.460 in terms

00:37:09.320 of how

00:37:10.360 they lived

00:37:11.040 their lives.

00:37:11.960 obviously

00:37:13.000 each of

00:37:13.840 these were

00:37:14.280 brilliant men

00:37:15.500 and can

00:37:16.680 be profitably

00:37:17.520 read for

00:37:18.280 their thoughts

00:37:18.940 about other

00:37:19.980 topics,

00:37:20.680 but there

00:37:21.540 was an

00:37:22.480 important

00:37:23.080 bifurcation

00:37:24.540 between what

00:37:25.960 philosophy

00:37:26.460 became in

00:37:27.480 the West

00:37:27.980 and its

00:37:29.500 original

00:37:29.980 purpose,

00:37:30.700 which was

00:37:31.100 to understand

00:37:33.020 something about

00:37:34.320 the nature

00:37:34.800 of being

00:37:36.000 in the

00:37:36.580 world such

00:37:37.480 that it

00:37:38.060 transforms

00:37:38.680 your

00:37:39.380 capacities

00:37:40.580 as a

00:37:41.480 person.

00:37:41.980 It transforms

00:37:42.840 the actual

00:37:43.920 moment-to-moment

00:37:45.180 texture of

00:37:45.760 your life.

00:37:47.000 So we have

00:37:47.540 largely lost

00:37:48.600 that.

00:37:49.560 I think

00:37:50.540 the fact

00:37:51.360 that even

00:37:52.520 now it's

00:37:53.260 really an

00:37:53.700 afterthought

00:37:54.440 or we're

00:37:55.560 just,

00:37:55.860 it's appearing

00:37:56.600 as a kind

00:37:56.960 of new

00:37:57.360 discovery

00:37:57.960 that maybe

00:37:59.200 we should

00:37:59.520 be teaching

00:38:00.000 children

00:38:00.620 something about

00:38:02.380 how to

00:38:03.360 be such

00:38:04.620 that they

00:38:05.220 become

00:38:06.080 happier,

00:38:07.840 wiser,

00:38:08.720 more ethical

00:38:09.440 people.

00:38:11.140 And I

00:38:12.100 think that's

00:38:12.400 the most

00:38:12.840 important

00:38:13.240 project we

00:38:14.680 have and

00:38:15.400 it seems

00:38:15.760 strange that

00:38:16.620 we don't

00:38:17.700 even discuss

00:38:19.020 it for the

00:38:20.000 most part

00:38:20.480 at any

00:38:21.440 point in

00:38:21.940 our education

00:38:22.700 system and

00:38:24.080 then just

00:38:24.820 rely on people

00:38:25.520 to figure it

00:38:26.020 out for

00:38:26.280 themselves once

00:38:27.100 they become

00:38:27.500 grown-ups.

00:38:29.540 Absolutely.

00:38:30.500 It strikes me

00:38:32.300 even more

00:38:32.940 as a

00:38:34.460 caregiver.

00:38:35.180 I'm supposed

00:38:35.680 to take

00:38:36.200 care of

00:38:36.600 others but

00:38:37.780 actually

00:38:38.220 throughout

00:38:39.360 my studies

00:38:41.080 at university

00:38:41.980 medical school

00:38:42.940 and specializing

00:38:45.100 neurology

00:38:45.840 never ever

00:38:47.440 have learned

00:38:48.860 anything about

00:38:49.720 taking care of

00:38:50.920 myself and

00:38:51.700 listening to

00:38:52.400 my own

00:38:52.880 emotions.

00:38:54.640 We know

00:38:55.640 caregivers are

00:38:56.780 at risk for

00:38:57.460 burnout.

00:38:58.100 I have two

00:38:58.640 colleagues who

00:38:59.320 committed suicide.

00:39:00.280 We know this

00:39:00.740 for such a

00:39:01.520 long time

00:39:02.140 and still

00:39:03.500 so little

00:39:04.660 is happening

00:39:05.340 structurally

00:39:06.320 speaking in

00:39:07.120 our faculty

00:39:08.160 and our

00:39:08.740 educational

00:39:09.260 system.

00:39:10.460 Yeah.

00:39:12.300 There's another

00:39:13.400 point there

00:39:14.140 which is

00:39:14.600 we've all

00:39:15.700 met doctors

00:39:16.700 who are

00:39:18.780 maybe brilliant

00:39:20.480 physicians

00:39:21.200 and certainly

00:39:22.200 in my experience

00:39:23.400 been recommended

00:39:24.040 to me as

00:39:24.640 brilliant

00:39:25.260 physicians

00:39:26.120 who have

00:39:27.540 terrible

00:39:28.600 bedside

00:39:29.220 manners.

00:39:29.620 they're in

00:39:31.000 no sense

00:39:32.280 a healing

00:39:33.420 presence

00:39:34.280 as a

00:39:35.500 person

00:39:36.000 and so

00:39:36.900 you're coming

00:39:37.380 to them

00:39:37.760 essentially

00:39:38.080 for their

00:39:38.680 expertise

00:39:39.500 as physicians

00:39:41.480 as diagnosticians

00:39:43.460 or people

00:39:44.200 who could

00:39:44.620 recommend a

00:39:45.800 course of

00:39:46.140 treatment

00:39:46.460 or they

00:39:47.260 might be

00:39:47.540 brilliant

00:39:47.880 surgeons

00:39:48.520 so this

00:39:49.340 is actually

00:39:49.740 the pair

00:39:50.100 of hands

00:39:50.560 you want

00:39:51.040 operating

00:39:51.640 if it

00:39:52.300 comes to

00:39:52.660 that

00:39:52.880 but

00:39:53.920 these are

00:39:54.980 people

00:39:55.360 who

00:39:55.940 are just

00:39:57.160 on some

00:39:58.080 level

00:39:58.300 canceling

00:39:59.720 whatever

00:40:00.880 healing

00:40:01.400 benefits

00:40:01.860 there might

00:40:02.200 be of

00:40:02.500 actually

00:40:02.960 connecting

00:40:04.020 with a

00:40:04.380 wise

00:40:04.780 and

00:40:04.980 compassionate

00:40:05.560 physician

00:40:06.520 because of

00:40:07.740 who they

00:40:08.720 seem to be

00:40:09.420 in their

00:40:10.280 own skins

00:40:10.860 as people

00:40:11.660 I don't know

00:40:13.200 what they

00:40:13.820 teach in

00:40:14.220 medical school

00:40:14.780 about how

00:40:15.260 to be

00:40:16.140 with

00:40:16.560 patients

00:40:17.200 but

00:40:18.120 obviously

00:40:19.200 the profession

00:40:20.440 of being

00:40:20.820 a doctor

00:40:21.240 selects for

00:40:21.940 a range

00:40:23.080 of personality

00:40:23.900 types

00:40:24.500 and I'm

00:40:24.760 sure

00:40:24.860 the various

00:40:25.560 specialties

00:40:26.260 further select

00:40:27.740 right

00:40:28.000 so it's

00:40:28.740 you're somewhat

00:40:29.400 at the mercy

00:40:30.040 of the

00:40:30.820 personality

00:40:31.380 that shows

00:40:32.140 up there

00:40:32.540 and again

00:40:34.000 yeah

00:40:34.220 it would be

00:40:35.840 better if

00:40:37.060 there was a

00:40:38.300 more holistic

00:40:39.980 understanding

00:40:41.200 of just what

00:40:41.880 it means to be

00:40:42.460 in that role

00:40:43.200 right

00:40:43.860 because it's

00:40:44.360 I mean

00:40:44.540 you're dealing

00:40:45.080 and I'm not

00:40:46.520 speaking from

00:40:46.980 experience

00:40:47.400 I'm really

00:40:47.780 just speaking

00:40:48.180 as a consumer

00:40:48.840 of medicine

00:40:49.400 but you know

00:40:50.380 depending on

00:40:51.260 what specialty

00:40:51.820 you're in

00:40:52.340 you're

00:40:52.860 encountering

00:40:53.480 people

00:40:53.840 very often

00:40:55.260 in the

00:40:56.660 most vulnerable

00:40:57.400 anxiety ridden

00:40:59.660 you know

00:40:59.980 or even

00:41:00.800 grief stricken

00:41:01.840 moments of

00:41:02.400 their lives

00:41:02.960 and it

00:41:04.560 matters

00:41:04.960 what sort

00:41:05.760 of person

00:41:06.100 you are

00:41:06.520 in those

00:41:06.960 moments

00:41:07.280 absolutely

00:41:08.580 in my

00:41:10.400 field of

00:41:10.920 expertise

00:41:11.300 seeing patients

00:41:12.360 after coma

00:41:13.700 and their

00:41:14.000 families

00:41:14.460 and a lot

00:41:14.960 of people

00:41:15.320 die

00:41:15.820 yeah

00:41:16.780 it is a

00:41:17.560 big challenge

00:41:18.480 to do the

00:41:19.120 job with

00:41:19.660 empathy

00:41:20.320 and compassion

00:41:21.020 and as

00:41:22.060 you said

00:41:22.700 we were

00:41:23.220 not selected

00:41:23.980 for that

00:41:24.420 we had

00:41:25.440 no

00:41:25.900 particular

00:41:26.780 courses

00:41:28.140 and

00:41:28.820 that is

00:41:29.960 a pity

00:41:31.620 speaking

00:41:33.120 of that

00:41:33.980 and in

00:41:34.340 my job

00:41:35.000 again

00:41:35.280 I see

00:41:35.940 death

00:41:36.620 on a

00:41:37.120 daily

00:41:37.400 basis

00:41:37.920 and

00:41:38.400 how did

00:41:39.820 meditation

00:41:40.440 change

00:41:41.140 your

00:41:41.540 relationship

00:41:42.300 with death

00:41:43.080 well

00:41:44.440 you know

00:41:44.820 it's

00:41:45.180 it's

00:41:45.600 certainly

00:41:45.820 traditional

00:41:46.900 to

00:41:48.440 frame

00:41:50.100 the project

00:41:50.900 of

00:41:51.600 meditation

00:41:52.680 and spiritual

00:41:53.860 practice

00:41:54.620 generally

00:41:55.340 contemplative

00:41:55.980 practice

00:41:56.460 very much

00:41:57.780 in the

00:41:58.920 context

00:41:59.520 of

00:42:00.020 getting

00:42:00.680 ready

00:42:01.140 to die

00:42:02.240 on some

00:42:02.840 level

00:42:03.100 it's like

00:42:03.520 this is

00:42:04.160 part of

00:42:05.260 the

00:42:05.540 the explicit

00:42:06.820 project

00:42:07.700 which is

00:42:08.440 you know

00:42:09.240 death is

00:42:09.700 inevitable

00:42:10.120 and

00:42:11.220 we spend

00:42:12.800 most of

00:42:13.980 our lives

00:42:14.400 by default

00:42:15.260 you know

00:42:15.980 materially

00:42:16.660 avoiding it

00:42:17.300 for obvious

00:42:18.060 reasons

00:42:18.460 but also

00:42:19.440 avoiding

00:42:20.560 thinking about

00:42:22.000 it

00:42:22.120 I mean

00:42:22.280 this is

00:42:22.620 the whole

00:42:23.200 notion of

00:42:23.740 death

00:42:24.020 denial

00:42:24.480 which

00:42:25.100 I think

00:42:25.860 has a lot

00:42:26.300 to it

00:42:26.740 and there

00:42:27.840 was a

00:42:28.120 wonderful

00:42:28.500 book

00:42:28.880 by that

00:42:29.540 title

00:42:29.840 the

00:42:30.160 denial

00:42:30.520 of death

00:42:30.980 by

00:42:31.200 Ernst

00:42:31.600 Becker

00:42:31.840 we try

00:42:33.100 to

00:42:33.300 distract

00:42:33.740 ourselves

00:42:34.180 from

00:42:34.860 this

00:42:35.100 ever

00:42:35.380 present

00:42:35.820 reality

00:42:36.680 and

00:42:37.360 many

00:42:38.660 of us

00:42:38.920 manage

00:42:39.240 to do

00:42:39.580 that

00:42:39.840 rather

00:42:40.140 well

00:42:40.560 right

00:42:40.980 I mean

00:42:41.100 there are

00:42:41.260 people

00:42:41.560 who

00:42:41.900 don't

00:42:42.780 think

00:42:43.020 about

00:42:43.260 death

00:42:43.620 all that

00:42:44.120 much

00:42:44.380 because

00:42:44.660 they're

00:42:44.980 they're

00:42:45.640 so busy

00:42:46.080 trying to

00:42:46.440 have a

00:42:46.660 good time

00:42:47.140 in life

00:42:47.800 and I

00:42:48.940 would say

00:42:49.400 that you

00:42:49.700 know

00:42:49.740 by tendency

00:42:50.240 I've always

00:42:50.620 been a

00:42:50.860 person

00:42:51.100 who

00:42:51.420 who has

00:42:52.300 not been

00:42:53.480 able to

00:42:53.840 forget

00:42:54.140 about

00:42:54.580 death

00:42:55.380 for very

00:42:56.060 long

00:42:56.460 right

00:42:56.760 you know

00:42:57.500 this is

00:42:57.820 probably

00:42:58.060 due to

00:42:58.460 the fact

00:42:58.740 that I

00:42:59.000 did lose

00:42:59.520 a few

00:43:00.300 people

00:43:00.520 close to

00:43:00.920 me

00:43:01.120 you know

00:43:01.640 fairly

00:43:01.880 early

00:43:02.140 on

00:43:02.500 so you

00:43:03.720 know

00:43:03.840 it was

00:43:04.360 always

00:43:04.640 obvious

00:43:05.000 to me

00:43:05.440 at least

00:43:05.820 you know

00:43:09.840 this was

00:43:10.060 a reality

00:43:11.320 and this

00:43:11.760 could happen

00:43:12.200 at any

00:43:12.540 time

00:43:12.820 there are

00:43:13.060 no guarantees

00:43:13.880 that you're

00:43:14.360 going to

00:43:14.600 live a

00:43:14.900 long life

00:43:15.480 and so

00:43:16.500 it's

00:43:17.260 something

00:43:17.520 that I've

00:43:18.400 always

00:43:18.660 kept

00:43:19.180 in front

00:43:20.480 of me

00:43:20.940 as a

00:43:21.920 fact

00:43:22.380 I mean

00:43:22.960 I think

00:43:23.640 more than

00:43:24.460 than the

00:43:25.960 average

00:43:26.260 person

00:43:26.700 and

00:43:27.300 meditation

00:43:28.300 is

00:43:29.080 is a

00:43:29.820 further

00:43:30.180 way of

00:43:30.580 doing

00:43:30.800 that

00:43:31.040 I mean

00:43:31.200 it's

00:43:31.640 a way

00:43:32.140 of extracting

00:43:32.980 the wisdom

00:43:34.660 of doing

00:43:35.700 that

00:43:35.920 rather than

00:43:36.760 than merely

00:43:37.360 being made

00:43:37.920 morbid

00:43:38.520 by

00:43:39.260 one's

00:43:39.800 awareness

00:43:40.120 of death

00:43:40.700 it's a

00:43:41.520 method

00:43:41.780 of

00:43:42.040 recognizing

00:43:43.060 just how

00:43:44.660 much there

00:43:45.020 is to be

00:43:45.340 grateful for

00:43:45.940 you haven't

00:43:46.960 died yet

00:43:47.800 your life

00:43:48.760 is right

00:43:49.840 here

00:43:50.200 to be

00:43:51.300 enjoyed

00:43:51.680 and it

00:43:52.140 can only

00:43:52.780 be enjoyed

00:43:53.360 by you

00:43:53.980 right

00:43:54.260 I mean

00:43:54.380 this corner

00:43:54.940 of the

00:43:55.220 universe

00:43:55.700 that is

00:43:56.600 illuminated

00:43:57.140 where you

00:43:57.860 sit

00:43:58.220 you know

00:43:58.840 only you

00:43:59.600 get to

00:44:00.300 make the

00:44:01.020 most of

00:44:01.420 that

00:44:01.680 and how

00:44:02.760 you pay

00:44:03.100 attention

00:44:03.540 to it

00:44:04.180 it really

00:44:04.540 is that

00:44:04.960 the most

00:44:05.560 important

00:44:06.080 piece

00:44:06.700 of that

00:44:07.340 I mean

00:44:07.560 it's not

00:44:07.920 really

00:44:08.220 making the

00:44:08.620 most of

00:44:08.940 it isn't

00:44:09.580 in the

00:44:09.880 end

00:44:10.220 radically

00:44:11.200 changing

00:44:11.760 what is

00:44:12.500 already

00:44:12.960 the case

00:44:13.900 there

00:44:14.140 it's really

00:44:14.960 being able

00:44:15.560 to sink

00:44:17.080 into the

00:44:18.400 experience of

00:44:19.140 being in the

00:44:19.760 world more

00:44:20.560 and more

00:44:21.000 and enjoy it

00:44:22.480 and enjoy it

00:44:23.220 in relationship

00:44:23.780 to other

00:44:24.160 people

00:44:24.540 enjoy it

00:44:25.160 in relationship

00:44:25.720 to the

00:44:26.220 natural beauty

00:44:27.900 of the world

00:44:28.500 enjoy it

00:44:29.700 by behaving

00:44:31.040 more and more

00:44:32.020 ethically

00:44:32.580 enjoy it

00:44:33.800 by having

00:44:34.500 better and

00:44:35.460 better intentions

00:44:36.260 with respect

00:44:37.380 to your

00:44:38.400 collaboration

00:44:38.840 with other

00:44:39.340 people

00:44:39.620 and enjoying

00:44:40.240 the quality

00:44:41.320 of mind

00:44:42.220 born of

00:44:42.900 those good

00:44:43.620 intentions

00:44:44.140 rather than

00:44:45.760 seeing yourself

00:44:46.300 in competition

00:44:47.000 with others

00:44:48.020 actually wanting

00:44:50.220 other people

00:44:50.740 to succeed

00:44:51.400 and feeling

00:44:52.380 good when

00:44:53.080 they succeed

00:44:53.640 rather than

00:44:54.180 feeling like

00:44:54.680 your happiness

00:44:55.760 has been

00:44:56.200 somehow diminished

00:44:57.200 by someone

00:44:58.360 got a slice

00:44:58.980 of the pie

00:44:59.460 that you

00:45:00.040 wanted

00:45:00.460 using all

00:45:02.700 of that

00:45:03.140 to come

00:45:03.740 to rest

00:45:04.320 more and more

00:45:05.000 in the present

00:45:05.500 moment

00:45:05.880 I really do

00:45:07.620 see that

00:45:08.080 as the project

00:45:08.880 and an awareness

00:45:09.680 of death

00:45:10.400 is apart

00:45:11.900 from just

00:45:12.240 being in

00:45:12.860 contact

00:45:13.220 with reality

00:45:14.800 this is

00:45:15.620 coming for

00:45:16.500 all of us

00:45:17.080 it is the

00:45:18.120 backstop

00:45:19.080 that keeps

00:45:19.740 you from

00:45:20.160 just wasting

00:45:20.980 all of your

00:45:21.740 time and

00:45:22.460 attention

00:45:22.840 without an

00:45:24.600 awareness of

00:45:25.200 death

00:45:25.580 I don't know

00:45:26.360 I think it

00:45:26.780 would be

00:45:27.080 possible to

00:45:27.700 just distract

00:45:29.760 yourself

00:45:30.260 as pleasantly

00:45:31.600 as you

00:45:31.900 could muster

00:45:32.700 always

00:45:33.840 and have

00:45:35.120 no deeper

00:45:36.640 priorities

00:45:37.280 there really

00:45:38.160 is something

00:45:38.440 good about

00:45:39.080 being aware

00:45:39.820 of death

00:45:40.200 but unless

00:45:41.120 you can

00:45:41.440 find that

00:45:42.140 and use

00:45:42.680 that

00:45:43.180 it is easy

00:45:44.220 to just

00:45:44.920 feel like

00:45:46.580 it's a source

00:45:47.760 of unhappiness

00:45:49.040 every time

00:45:49.640 you think

00:45:50.040 about death

00:45:50.700 you feel

00:45:51.680 like okay

00:45:52.320 that's no

00:45:53.340 place to

00:45:53.900 linger

00:45:54.200 and I just

00:45:54.880 want the

00:45:55.640 project now

00:45:56.240 is to forget

00:45:56.800 about it

00:45:58.080 and I

00:46:00.040 think that's

00:46:00.420 a misuse

00:46:01.820 of the

00:46:02.600 actual

00:46:02.900 opportunity

00:46:03.440 you've

00:46:05.040 referred

00:46:05.780 a number

00:46:06.940 of times

00:46:07.360 to the

00:46:07.900 Buddhist

00:46:08.280 tradition

00:46:09.080 and how

00:46:10.540 long

00:46:11.080 they

00:46:12.260 have

00:46:12.640 their

00:46:13.620 people

00:46:14.100 been

00:46:14.440 if you'd

00:46:17.880 like to

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - December 07, 2020

#227 — Knowing the Mind

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