#235 — A Call from Ricky Gervais
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Summary
What are dreams? Why do we have them every night? What are they do to us? And why are they so important? Is there a scientific explanation to them? Or are they just a byproduct of a living brain which would otherwise be boring? In this episode of the podcast, we explore these questions and try to find the answer to them. Join us as we explore the mysteries of dreams, and the strange experiences we have every night, as we try to make sense of them, and see if there is any explanation for them, or if they are just pseudoscience, nonsense, or something we should all be trying to figure out. If you have a burning desire to know the answers to these questions, then this episode is for you! This episode is brought to you by LaCie, and edited by Matthew Boll, and produced by Alex Blumberg. The opinions expressed in this episode are our own, not those of our employers, and do not necessarily those of their respective companies. We do not endorse the views expressed in the books mentioned in the show. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, advice, or advice, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions given by our employers. Please do not take it as advice, unless it is obtained from a qualified professional source, unless otherwise specified. Thank you for your feedback and permission to use it in this podcast, if you would like to do so. You can contact us directly through our website or social media if you have any questions or concerns about the subject matter you want us to help us answer these questions. We appreciate the questions you have submitted by us, and we do not have access to this podcast. Thanks to our patrons, we appreciate your support and we are grateful for the support we have received so far. - Thank you so much, we really appreciate the support you've given us. We thank you, we truly appreciate it, we are looking forward to your support, and appreciate the feedback we can provide you in the next episode of this podcast - we appreciate it - we really do so much. We really appreciate it. It really means a lot, we're grateful for all of your support. Love you, really really appreciative of the support, we can't wait to hear you, and really appreciate your words and support us, really appreciate you, truly appreciate the words you're being kind.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
hello ricky how's it going hey uh good how's it going yeah good so question yes i'm ready
00:00:20.040
go on i'm ready i'm ready wait wait let me make sure both feet are on the floor i'm ready
00:00:25.180
what are dreams for and i mean do they provide a sort of medical or evolutionary advantage or are
00:00:35.900
they just a byproduct of a living brain which would be boring so what are they what are they for are
00:00:42.800
they for anything i don't i don't i don't even use the the i can't think of the correct terminology
00:00:48.580
to ask you that probably sounds like a dumb thing but you know i mean okay i know what fingers are
00:00:53.820
for you know i know what eyes are for what are dreams for dreams are for the same thing as fingers
00:00:59.780
you're just using them wrong no you you hit it perfectly that the question what are they for
00:01:05.880
or are they just a byproduct yeah you know the the technical word people use in philosophy there is an
00:01:12.300
epiphenomenon yeah they're not doing anything they're just associated with something that's
00:01:17.180
doing something right i don't think we know really i mean we we know that certain good and necessary
00:01:24.220
things happen during REM sleep which is generally associated with dreaming that's not the only stage
00:01:30.500
of sleep where we have dreams but there seems to be a several things going on you know at least
00:01:36.780
there's a process of memory consolidation that happens during REM so if REM sleep is disrupted
00:01:43.900
a lot your memory certainly suffers but that's not so is it is it that so you could you say that it's
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your brain getting work done that it can't do when you're conscious because it's you're using it for
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other things and it goes right he's asleep let's do this stuff let's stock take let's put let's let's
00:02:03.760
is it like putting a kid's toys away when he's asleep is it i i i can't grasp what you mean by
00:02:11.440
how do they consolidate memories where the memories go is it like putting it away in a drawer i i you're
00:02:17.180
gonna have to use a lot of metaphor for me i want to go back to the distinction you made uh quite
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naturally at the beginning that whether they're the dream experience itself is doing something or
00:02:31.460
whether it's just a byproduct of the thing that's doing something and that that i don't think we know
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it's like there's a remaining question why should there be any experiential component to this memory
00:02:44.660
consolidation it seems like the brain should be able to consolidate memories in the dark without
00:02:49.860
there being any experience of it it does most of what it does in the dark or certainly seems to which
00:02:55.100
is to say that you're not conscious at any point of the maintenance it's doing or any of the other
00:03:00.300
things it's doing so why we should have these bizarre experiences every night and whether whether
00:03:07.040
that is necessary you know for memory consolidation or anything else that's i totally accept that i
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totally if if if someone said listen this is this is synapse jumping and and pinging off and and
00:03:20.680
they're hallucinations that don't mean anything because you know you're not you're not engaging
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sort of critical thinking because you're asleep i i could totally accept that but i wonder why
00:03:32.840
after you know millions of years of evolution that they seem to be so important no one doesn't
00:03:41.740
there's no one that doesn't dream we do it every night and also isn't there isn't there a certain
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degree of why is why have okay right this is why i think it might be pseudoscience and nonsense and
00:03:54.840
and um anecdotal evidence that has made me think there's a reason to them because i remember when
00:04:00.240
i was um i was doing chemistry and we were told that kekule when he was trying to work out the
00:04:07.120
structure of benzene had a dream of a snake biting its own tail and he woke up and said it's a ring
00:04:13.760
right now i can i can both accept that it might be giving you cryptic clues because you know a lot of
00:04:21.740
things happen in your brain that are subconscious you know i could also accept that that's nonsense
00:04:26.800
he made it up it's a coincidence he knew the answer he went to sleep with the answer and then you know
00:04:32.140
i i i almost want to know i saw i want to know the magic and the science and i want them to be this
00:04:40.660
i want to be the same thing do you know what i mean well most dreams are like a bad television show
00:04:47.360
that just got greenlit 250 000 years ago and no one has figured out how to get it off the air i mean
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there's they're not producing insights into science right it's just right it's just noise but i think
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what one thing that dreams reveal about our minds is that it's possible for us to be pushed into
00:05:06.460
new circumstances you know suddenly i mean you go to bed having every right to expect to stay in your
00:05:12.980
bed and the next thing you experience is something quite different and you're not even remotely
00:05:21.660
surprised by the transition your conscious mind is suddenly put in relationship to people who
00:05:27.560
aren't actually there you know some people might be dead some people might be you know famous people
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you don't know yeah so so uh you know i could have had a dream i was talking to ricky gervais before i
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met ricky gervais and i wouldn't be surprised at all right unless it's a lucid dream which is its own
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thing well we're getting cartesia now because this obviously could be a dream this this this it could
00:05:49.880
it could be you know i've had i've had this dream i've had a dream where i'm where i'm unaware that
00:05:55.880
it's a dream and i'm talking to dream characters and i'm i'm lecturing them on this very point you
00:06:02.240
realize this could be a dream right now yeah and they're yeah they're all looking at me like i'm
00:06:07.480
an idiot self-awareness yeah i i often have self-awareness in dreams in fact uh so if i have
00:06:13.500
nightmares i now i've got to the point where in my dream i can say jane jane wake me up wake me up
00:06:22.560
and and and and sometimes i think she said i have said her name and obviously in the dream now
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i'm in the nightmare but i'm in bed and i know jane is trying to wake me up right and it takes
00:06:37.440
i don't know how long it takes in reality it probably seems to me like half the night and to
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her like three seconds so well that well that's a lucid dream that's that's the opposite of what i was
00:06:47.800
just confessing i've had a dream where i had no idea i was dreaming and i'm i'm lecturing dream
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characters that this could be a dream i'm having a conversation of the sort that we're having right now
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wow and they're looking at me like i'm a total moron and then i wake up but this this is one
00:07:05.380
thing that reveals actually an example probably closer to your heart is have you ever had someone
00:07:11.820
tell you a joke in a dream yeah and the punchline actually works right like so i think i think so i
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think i've had dreams where i've invented jokes and i've woken up excited and i've remembered it and
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it's absolute bollocks it doesn't make it's not as funny it's not it doesn't make any sense
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and then but what what i have had that's worked i've dreamt tunes and i've gone down and i've worked
00:07:40.400
them out and they're pretty good right and so that's the so that's because i think the reason is
00:07:47.460
that a tune is one thing but a joke is a misdirection it's a magic act in it and it plays with
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it plays with expectation and logic and surprise and and i think that dreams if i've got this right
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you they sort of they sort of take critical thinking out of it they take out logic so it's purely your
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emotions firing and practicing and just being spilt so that would make sense that uh you'd wake up
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laughing that you've just invented the funniest dream in the world but the logic and the critical
00:08:21.540
thinking part of it says well it was actually bollocks you just felt the fun so i get that yeah
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i have an embarrassing example of that but i was going for the opposite of that but my example of that
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just to show you how insane one can be in the mere feeling without any anchor to logic or kind of
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reality testing i once woke up beside my wife laughing my head off from a joke told in a dream
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and i turned to her and i said i just dreamt the funniest joke and she being wiser in the ways of
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science said it's not going to be funny i said no no it's it and she said it's not going to be funny
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and i said here's the joke what sound does a monster make and she said she says i don't know
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what sound does a monster make and then i drum on the end table the sound in the dream it was something
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like this and then i actually go one further round i say no no that's not it it's
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and then my psychosis lifted right i actually thought i thought i could deliver the punch line
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a second time and it would land and it was just me drumming on the end table you were still close
00:09:36.360
to your subconscious dream state where you were convinced that this was so your so your emotional
00:09:41.640
side outweighed your logic your logic had to get back your your logic had to get up and rub its eyes
00:09:47.400
and put its clothes on and go sam that's that doesn't work and you go oh no it doesn't work but
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i quite like that because that's like a child's dream yeah that's like a that's sort of like a
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child's dream because dreams that they they knit they've nearly got it right they it nearly works
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it's got the rhythm of the joke but it doesn't quite work on a comedic level and that is the same as
00:10:09.520
that they want they yeah that's interesting but i'm wondering if have you ever had the opposite
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experience where something actually quite rational and and logical and fit for export into waking life
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has been communicated to you in a dream like the punchline actually works i can't remember i can't
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remember and i know i i uh i can't remember which is disappointing isn't it i could imagine
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that dreams could almost be like a simulator where there were no distractions you you you're close
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you obviously you're you're unconscious your brain's doing its thing and it's taking you through
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scenarios almost that you could do when you're daydreaming and using logic but obviously it's
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only on an emotional level which is still good if you know that there could be an argument or there
00:11:03.800
might be research done that the reason why logic's kept out of it is because it can be stifling
00:11:09.880
in art that you know your imagination is bigger than your your your critical thinking so you know
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that that it's it's it's sort of like it's an infinite world emotion isn't it it it can take you
00:11:26.780
anywhere it can take you anywhere you can fly you can you can shoot people you can you can do anything
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that you know you you can't practice in real life so maybe it's maybe it's only preparing you it could
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be that it's only a strengthening you up emotionally like does a kid dreams of their grandfather dying
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and then it's not quite as bad when it happens could that could that could that could that have any sort
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of value there that it strengthens you emotionally in the sense that it it takes it takes your mind
00:12:01.960
where your body hasn't been yet you know i i don't know because it is so discontinuous with what
00:12:08.940
tends to happen in the waking state i mean that is if you're sane right i mean because insofar as the
00:12:14.140
waking state begins to resemble what you experience in dreams it becomes pretty dysfunctional like you
00:12:21.360
know thinking that this is the funniest joke you've ever heard and it actually makes no sense i mean that
00:12:25.540
is that is madness what's very interesting about that is is that it shows that
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the comedy is an intellectual pursuit as opposed to an emotional one and i've always thought that
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as soon as you start putting emotion into comedy it fails on a certain level even down to the point
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that if you're saying things that that's the audience don't agree with or don't like or it's a
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contentious thing or it's a dark subject they they won't allow themselves to like the joke as much
00:12:56.140
as if it's just syntax or you know a pun or something you know that works for everyone if
00:13:02.980
they understand the language whereas not puns not puns spare me that puns aren't no i don't think
00:13:08.900
puns are funny but what i mean is it it shows that you understand if you understand you have to understand
00:13:14.780
that language and therefore you have to get the joke so it's quite a good a pun is quite a good vehicle
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to to so that you've understood language and also it shows the misdirection very clearly a pun again
00:13:27.560
not funny so let's linger there for a second why some people obviously think puns are funny
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why are some people allergic to puns i mean that difference of opinion comedically what do you have
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any thoughts about that yeah because i i think that once you've done one you know you you've you've
00:13:46.880
seen them all really they're they're the same thing it's it's it's almost like a nod of the head
00:13:51.960
i i understand those two words have different meanings i saw the misdirection it was a surprise
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it's a release there's no way that you could be crying with laughter on the floor a pun like you could
00:14:05.140
with something that you know that that's fascinating though is it too brief or it's just too it's it's
00:14:11.660
object being i think language superficial or what no i i think on a couple levels i i think really
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one thing is that it's only discovered it was always there a pun was always there because the
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dictionary was always there so with a pun it takes someone to suddenly stumble across those two words
00:14:32.080
and put them into a sentence and you know it's it's almost like you couldn't claim if one comedian
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did a pun and another people comedian who was a punster did a pun he couldn't claim you couldn't
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say no you heard me say that you'd go well no it was in the dictionary it was there it's it's almost
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like it's it's not so creative it's more like a found object a pun and you can be clever with it
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and you know what there are some amazing punsters but i still think it's it's not like it's not as funny
00:15:02.820
as someone falling over because it's not visceral you know anthropologists say that the first bit
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of comedy was one caveman laughing another caveman hit his head why empathy that caveman knew that
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that hurt because he's done it and he knew that that other caveman didn't want to do it and that's
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funny that's actually funny okay because we feel it as well i've almost contradicted myself saying
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it's an intellectual pursuit as opposed to an emotional one that's interesting well yeah that
00:15:33.280
well i mean obviously that's there's other types of humor i'm gonna stick to my initial premise that
00:15:39.760
comedy is an intellectual pursuit because i think my examples that are emotional aren't comedy
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they're they're hardwired visceral they're funny but they couldn't be called comedy because i think
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comedy is some sort of created framework to tickle your funny bone whereas you know having a sense
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of humor you can look at the sky and smile that you wouldn't call it comedy but we have this phrase
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physical comedy you got charlie chaplin and you know everyone on up from there yeah making us laugh
00:16:12.120
or often making us laugh by falling in the right yeah but there are physical jokes i think the difference
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if you're walking along the street and someone slips and it's their head and says fucking out
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that's funny right that's funny for the caveman reason right that's funny we empathize it's not us
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right they didn't want to do it i think with someone like keaton and chaplin there are built-in jokes there
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are actual built-in jokes like someone bending down missing the plank getting up tipping hat seeing a
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a lady getting hit in the plank that's a that's a constructed physical they're using physicality
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there like like we'd use like words and sentences and surprises and a joke i still think that's
00:16:56.300
different to just seeing i someone falling over you couldn't call comedy but it can be the funniest
00:17:02.880
thing you know well it's the mismatch between you know having a you know a sick old person fall over
00:17:10.100
that's not funny unless you're in a sociopathic frame of mind but having a person who's full of
00:17:19.020
pretension about their own of course station in life fall over it gets to the funny and that's and
00:17:25.180
and that's what you know when you create comedy in narrative you you know you do you do allow that
00:17:31.080
because you're almost pandering to the audience that in in fiction we create our own heroes and
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villains as role play for the soul so that you know villains get their comeuppance heroes are
00:17:43.000
rewarded and you make the world perfect and you're right pretension is you know is the opposite of
00:17:49.940
heroic so when someone's smug and hits their head that's funnier than the hero hitting his head in fact
00:17:56.980
uh you could say the difference between comedy and drama is that drama doesn't show people's
00:18:03.000
flaws or rather their inadequacies whereas comedy we embrace them we we comedy at its best says
00:18:11.240
we're all idiots so it's fine it's almost a celebration of being a loser comedy and as soon as you lose that
00:18:19.040
you start getting into drama as soon as as soon as the the people are perfect or heroic or don't do
00:18:26.100
anything wrong that's not funny same as stand-up if someone comes out and tells you how they outwitted the
00:18:32.780
world how brilliant they are how you know what a great day they've had and you know they're infeasibly
00:18:38.880
handsome and you go this isn't funny just like someone showing you holiday snaps of the perfect
00:18:44.320
holiday you want to some you want someone to come out slip bang his head tell you what a terrible day
00:18:50.300
he's had and with your with his blessing you're laughing more because you want to hear you you don't want to
00:18:58.520
hear perfection isn't funny it's just not funny flaws are funny mistakes are funny there's this
00:19:04.400
comedian you might know him if you're a bit of an anglophile called um les dawson he was uh around in
00:19:11.260
like the 50s 70s 80s right and uh it was a great northern comedian he loved language he'd uh he was
00:19:18.540
almost alan bennett like and his um you know he'd tell these these these funny stories but but he used to
00:19:24.540
this thing where he'd play the piano and he'd get and he'd hit the wrong notes but he was very arrogant
00:19:30.400
about it and he'd smile and he'd wink like he was liberarchi and it was it was and it was hilarious
00:19:35.780
and i've i've thought of that for years and and i almost use that as a metaphor for sort of dark humor
00:19:43.160
we're laughing right because we're laughing at the blind spot that he thinks he's brilliant and we know
00:19:49.060
he's not right but we can only laugh if we know that tune if we don't know that tune we don't know
00:19:56.040
the mistakes so i think people laugh at the wrong thing because they know what the right thing is
00:20:02.680
and i've tried to apply that to you know everything in in comedy politics whatever and i think that's a
00:20:10.780
good feeling just like people when they laugh because they get the pun it's almost a celebration
00:20:15.700
of understanding and surprise and i think that's interesting laughing at the wrong thing because
00:20:23.500
you know what the right thing is that those notes are the bits we laugh at when he hits the wrong note
00:20:28.760
we laugh at that wrong note yeah because it sounds bad because we know what the right thing is so and
00:20:34.260
that might be also because there might be an interpersonal understanding of what's right in music because i'm sure
00:20:40.800
there are some avant-garde pieces of music that sound worse where they've explored hitting you know
00:20:47.200
seconds and you know and it sounds to the average person a monstrosity but to you know that people
00:20:53.100
understand it would depreciate it more i make it a point to laugh at those people well of course i'll
00:20:58.360
tell you an anecdote here i was a uh college with a guy and uh he uh he was studying languages and he went to
00:21:08.040
see this foreign film and apparently it was subtitled where the audience they're all students watching
00:21:15.480
this and there was one bit where a russian guy was talking to another russian guy and it wasn't
00:21:23.520
subtitled and so he uh he told a joke in russian and one guy who was studying russian at the back went
00:21:31.100
just to let everyone know and i think right that joke can't be that funny you're just letting
00:21:39.820
everyone know you understood a joke in russian right so there's that celebration as well and
00:21:47.020
that you're right about the pretension of um but maybe not maybe you know because i can't get into
00:21:52.980
jazz i've tried but then there's gateway things oh that's good i get it and slowly right you know and
00:21:58.520
all the things i love now were an acquired taste they were challenging you know i did i didn't like
00:22:04.940
radiohead at first now they're my favorite band you know you're now drinking scotch for breakfast
00:22:10.160
wow that's that's another thing you can't just yeah pure pure quiet probably not good for you yeah
00:22:16.740
but um so i i get it i i understand it but uh i think you sometimes have to work at stuff to
00:22:25.700
appreciate them more um yeah and you know i i i suppose i i've been worried about pretension but
00:22:32.060
now if i believe someone if someone if someone i'll give you another example okay so when i was um
00:22:39.080
uh on the dole do you say what do you say that you know welfare i left college and i didn't have a job
00:22:44.400
and i had no money yeah welfare right so yeah um yeah no money but so what i used to do all day
00:22:52.120
is just run i used to run around london right i thought i'd keep fit and and i couldn't afford
00:22:58.820
you know to use the subway or but you know so and i saved all my money for you know a pint of beer
00:23:05.980
so and i used to go to art galleries because they were free and i remember i went in a one art gallery
00:23:12.120
and there was a a dali exhibition on and i saw for the first time lobster telephone so it's basically a
00:23:19.900
telephone with a lobster on as the receiver and i saw it and i looked down and it just said
00:23:26.720
lobster telephone and i laughed because i just thought that's so funny and so primitive to do a
00:23:33.160
you know he didn't give a highfalutin title he called he called it lobster telephone and i laughed
00:23:40.680
and a couple of people who were looking at it gave me a dirty look as if to go what are you doing here
00:23:46.680
you you scruffy you sweaty bastard yeah you don't know anything and it really annoyed me and it's
00:23:53.260
that thing in that woody allen film i wanted to get dali out and go were you joking and he go yes of
00:23:58.400
course i was joking i go see fuck off so uh you know i'm very aware of pretension but do you know
00:24:07.000
dolly they're selling out and they're selling out at the end of his life he would just sign blank
00:24:13.020
canvases really they'd pay him i forget what it was but something like you know twenty thousand
00:24:18.680
dollars to just sign away and he would just sign endless numbers of blank canvases for that people
00:24:24.660
could do whatever they wanted with that's amazing i uh i heard an anecdote about picasso which
00:24:29.440
is one of my favorite things ever about getting good at something i guess towards the end he used to
00:24:37.340
do the same for for charity and people would queue up and he'd uh he'd do a little squiggle a little
00:24:44.600
picasso squiggle for 500 or something and one woman queued up and he squiggled a thing and you know
00:24:51.120
she went you're gonna charge me 500 that took you a few seconds and he said no madam it took me all my
00:24:57.420
life yeah and i think that's so good people are people are great at something it doesn't look like
00:25:04.180
they're trying hard it doesn't look like they're you know um so i i i i do like that and i do
00:25:10.020
appreciate you know that that 10 000 hours to be genius and but i i am in awe of things that i can't
00:25:17.520
do like getting back to music i mean i it's like it's like downloading emotions there's i i don't
00:25:25.100
understand why does some pieces of music with no association right it's not you know my gran didn't
00:25:32.520
used to play it a chord can make me feel sick like i want to cry and laugh at the same time because
00:25:38.620
it's so beautiful now that must be that must be some sort of hard wiring mustn't it but why we
00:25:46.720
weren't there weren't orchestras when we were australopithecus why why does that yeah wow yeah well
00:25:54.620
it's um clearly a kind of super stimulus do you know this um concept of a super stimulus no
00:26:02.020
someone who was who was interacting with a a species of um seagull it was raising these seagull
00:26:10.540
chicks and the mother seagull has you know has a kind of a red dot on her beak to which the chicks
00:26:18.240
orient and and bond yeah and so they created a fake mother with a you know especially large red red dot
00:26:27.660
yes yeah and it was even more effective than than the natural version so there's something about there
00:26:34.400
i think there are things in i actually think television and film is a kind of super stimulus
00:26:41.460
for us and it's one of the reasons why we find it so captivating because i can't remember if we
00:26:47.800
spoke about this and when we did a podcast but if it's just makes i just think it makes you're there
00:26:53.140
you can see things you couldn't possibly see it's not like a you know you can't you in a documentary
00:26:59.720
about vikings you don't see marauding vikings with personality whereas when you watch you know a great
00:27:07.340
production it's like you're seeing real life even though it's fiction you're seeing things you shouldn't
00:27:13.800
really have seen well i think the crucial thing is yeah you're seeing things you you shouldn't or
00:27:19.440
couldn't have seen in a condition where you're invisible like i mean this is what's amazing like
00:27:24.500
i can look at your face you know when you're on screen and i'm unimplicated yeah there's nothing
00:27:32.120
you're going to do with your eyes that's going to expose me to your glance and so it's it's this
00:27:36.760
experience of just transcendent voyeurism yeah but i also think it's less to be good because there
00:27:42.700
are things you can know otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as a great film and a terrible film
00:27:47.160
you know and i know that's subjective but that's true of everyone's you know that you turn things
00:27:52.080
off this isn't this isn't doing it for me why am i watching this you know so yeah yeah it is that it
00:27:57.820
is that experience and there's another one we're on that right in the third is when people saw a film
00:28:04.460
they were blown away but when we watch it now we go oh it's black and white it's a bit flickery
00:28:11.480
there's no special effects you know worse than that my daughter i've got a i've got a 12 year
00:28:17.120
old daughter who's not impressed by films i know blew me away when i was 15 or 18 like like she looks
00:28:26.420
at star wars i mean she she notices how bad the acting is in well i think i think you i think you've
00:28:32.960
hit on something with the um participation because that's why video games are bigger than movies because
00:28:38.920
you are participating i think that people want to be part of every causal web they can they want to
00:28:45.540
cause they want to cause the commotion they want to have an effect on the world so i think the next
00:28:50.960
level is a film that's as good as the godfather where you're in it yeah i think that's the next
00:28:56.860
that's the next level you know you you do and say things and those characters react or we can all
00:29:04.340
become as stupid as we are in dreams and just find everything just amazing oh yeah well that got
00:29:10.700
back to the yeah so if so basically you don't know the answer all right thanks bye