Making Sense - Sam Harris - #237 — Another Call from Ricky Gervais

00:00:00.000 hey ricky hi quick one i've been thinking about your your dream your joke in your dream and uh

00:00:21.920 as we comedians say i think it deserves more a little bit more yeah yeah no i actually make it

00:00:29.280 funny yeah it is no it is it is sometimes it's funny for the wrong reasons and on a meta level

00:00:34.840 well first of all it's funny that you told me it it's funny that you that you right that i had

00:00:42.800 told me that and uh and i was underwhelmed and it's like you've been through that once because

00:00:48.080 the funniest thing of course is an eminent thinker waking their partner up and going i've just

00:00:52.760 dreamt a great joke but it just clear that's funny already right listen you had annika laughing at

00:00:59.940 the phrase eminent thinker yeah well right but so so it's so it's good this this is what i want to

00:01:07.800 talk about right so it sounds like a joke it sounds like a child's joke even the premise you know what

00:01:14.760 noise does a monster make right now that's a that's a simple you think it's going to be a pun

00:01:19.880 some sort of play on words what noise the moment but it's better than that because there's even a

00:01:25.540 play on there in your in your joke because we think it means a noise a monster consciously makes

00:01:32.320 a roar or a gruh but no it's the it's the involuntary sound it makes because it's big and it's

00:01:39.520 heavy and it's it can't help that noise it doesn't want to make that noise so that's funny already

00:01:44.000 where you've imposed this as this monster making this noise but it's just because he's big and

00:01:50.600 heavy right so that's that's funny right because of course right and you and the other thing is

00:01:58.160 you've learned that noise from cartoons and theater productions because a monster doesn't make that

00:02:04.760 noise you've learned that from cartoons and theater productions okay and here's what's the funny bit

00:02:11.200 for me is that i think you think that's funny in your subconscious sort of dreamy state because i

00:02:19.720 think you invented that i think you think you invented that noise a monster makes even though

00:02:26.260 you've learned it from cartoons and theater that's why i think you think it's so funny because i think

00:02:32.880 subconsciously you think well that's a great play that's a great play on you know what sound does a

00:02:38.040 oh it's this one and you think you invented that i don't know there's some there's something there

00:02:44.100 that you were excited about the cleverness of it i don't know maybe i'm very flattered that you've done

00:02:50.400 an autopsy on my psychosis but i would ascribe it to just the frank psychosis of the dream state

00:02:57.240 literally that was one of the funniest things i had ever heard of course and you can't help it because

00:03:02.160 you just as we said last time you your brain just cut to the emotion of having thought of the funniest

00:03:09.320 joke in the world without the the workings out you know you hadn't gone through that process you just

00:03:14.300 got to and jane reminded me of one that she had 30 years ago she woke up laughing right and she said

00:03:21.740 i just dreamt i told the funniest joke and she was already out of it and knew it wasn't funny but her

00:03:26.720 trying to tell me the funniest joke in the world because she knew how awful it was really made me

00:03:32.460 laugh as well and the joke and again it nearly works right the joke was in her dream that was the

00:03:39.300 funniest joke in the world the joke was if there's two things in a pot of ivy they're both leaves

00:03:45.880 now that that really does almost work yeah it almost works because that's much better than my joke

00:03:52.520 because it's almost a diss on the ivy that's all it's got right if you ask me what ivy's got and

00:03:59.420 it's got two things it's leaves just got more ivy yeah

00:04:02.420 oh dear so yeah that's what i've been that's what i've been thinking about what can't you joke about

00:04:11.840 because you go you go hard i'm surprised that you know occasionally i i recall how edgy you are in

00:04:21.260 certain context i mean like your golden globe stuff is just just murder right i mean you're

00:04:25.760 murdering people in the room and yeah but have you course corrected in recent years is there anything

00:04:32.360 you wouldn't do that you did a few years ago i i sense the things i i have i have a set of rules

00:04:38.880 you know and and that's depending on the the forum as well you know i i wouldn't do a kid's party

00:04:45.220 and talk about the things i talk about live you know in fact i feel uncomfortable live if i'm doing

00:04:50.960 something uh you know i try and make it you know 16 and over so i can relax that i'm not i'm not

00:04:57.860 corrupting the youth right and you know i play by the rules of tv and you know the golden globes is a

00:05:03.920 very good example if you think about it that was network television at peak time 5 p.m that went out

00:05:10.160 across america and i didn't break any broadcast rules so it couldn't have been that bad how could you

00:05:16.120 get away with dame judy dench licking her i forget the right word okay that's a really interesting

00:05:23.600 one so what happens is i think usually i was told by the production team of the golden globes they

00:05:29.500 like me doing it because i'm easy i turn up with a scrap of paper with 20 jokes on it and they said

00:05:35.720 usually presenters have like a team of 20 writers for like six weeks before and you know they have to

00:05:41.340 they're worried about it and they keep changing it and things happen it's i turn up and go i'm doing

00:05:45.880 these are these all right but what you have to do is the day before it has to be lawyered and uh i

00:05:53.100 what do you call it you we call it taste and decency you call it something else standard and practices

00:05:59.040 yes exactly and what that usually means is you know that you can't do uh gross things that people

00:06:06.740 might find offensive language libel i don't want to libel anyone anyway i think i i think i can work

00:06:13.040 around the language thing if you can't then there's probably something missing although we talk about

00:06:18.220 that as well i want to i want to address the people that say anyone can get a laugh swearing i want to

00:06:23.280 go all right okay uh let's sell the tickets go out go out on wember the arena and just swear see how

00:06:28.180 funny it is mate and usually it's uh i've done it when there's one person one lawyer just looks down

00:06:34.300 yeah that's all right that's all right that's all right this time i don't know why i don't know

00:06:38.660 whether it was a a reflection of the times they had they had the dream team of lawyers oh there was

00:06:44.020 17 people in the room 17 people in the room but it was you know it was execs some of the writers

00:06:48.740 wanting to come down just to see what i'd done well you know you know you had scared the shit out of

00:06:53.640 them from previous years right this is your like third year running or something yeah for fifth year it

00:06:59.140 was the fifth year running over a 10 year period so i think some of them were sort of

00:07:03.740 excited at the prospect you know because it all it usually always gets quite a reaction

00:07:08.340 and uh you know there were there were the people who who write the other stuff because there's apart

00:07:15.200 from me um there's people who write all the other intros if you know what i mean so there was those

00:07:20.900 guys there there was the exec producers producers and lots of lots of lawyers nothing there's about 15

00:07:27.640 people in the room and um so uh tough crowd so i did my monologue exactly as it went out so you

00:07:37.840 actually you perform for that room full of lawyers yeah i mean i'm not i'm i'm not giving it everything

00:07:43.900 but yeah i do it i read the jokes as well as i can so they get them that there's you know there's

00:07:48.680 there's a there's a mild performance but that's the other thing about the golden globes unlike my

00:07:54.480 stand-up and uh obviously the the narrative stuff i do it's much more about the gag they have to work

00:08:02.120 i haven't got time to work it in over six weeks that i can't it's got a it's more like a piece of

00:08:08.820 you know poetry it's more like a you know a formula it's got to be fast it's got to be set up punchline

00:08:15.460 laugh you know right otherwise it's it's too it's too nebulous it won't get the laughs that you do when

00:08:22.940 you've got a worked routine so you want 20 zingers really even then i still try and do a little bit

00:08:29.980 of a narrative i still try and you know the you know how i edit my jokes for that oh i've done two

00:08:35.740 about him that's not fair or that looks like i've got something against that person because you know

00:08:40.220 you might have three jokes about someone you go what's the best one you know so you try and keep

00:08:44.200 it fair i try and make it about the people in the room and that event i try and make it like

00:08:49.940 it couldn't be in in any other place at any other time in any other room right i try and do the

00:08:56.360 classic court jester of of punching up i have a go against the you know the broadcaster the hollywood

00:09:02.480 foreign press and the the richest most powerful people in in the room right but i mean the place

00:09:09.580 where you really just eviscerated the whole room and one person in particular was the the the uh when you

00:09:18.420 went after tim cook and apple for running sweatshops you know and you know they obviously

00:09:23.260 cut to tim cook just sitting there at a banquet table and and then you pivoted to telling everyone

00:09:29.480 in the room that they had no they were in no way entitled to be sanctimonious because if isis

00:09:34.540 created a streaming service they would call their agents immediately i did that on purpose because

00:09:39.540 that was the sort of theme of the year i think i thought it was quite zeitgeisty that it felt right

00:09:45.760 that people had had enough of hollywood and you know and uh and being lectured to and i i even

00:09:51.380 think i think we've talked about this before that i even think trump getting in was was almost a

00:09:55.760 protest vote against that authoritarian liberalism for the last 10 years so i i i i sort of addressed

00:10:03.760 that without again without taking a side i don't think i took a side but for instance you're you're

00:10:09.260 slamming tim cook there was was that actually a lawyered line they knew you were going to do that

00:10:13.920 uh yeah but don't forget i i i don't think i mentioned his name i don't think i knew he was

00:10:20.160 going to be there and i certainly didn't know they were going to cut to him so they made it oh i don't

00:10:24.260 know who they're going to cut to i don't know i don't i don't plan that but no the the the joke was

00:10:29.600 real yeah so the i thought the funny joke was this is a lovely program and you know what i don't even

00:10:36.760 know that that's pretty true i don't know that that that it it is up itself or pretentious or

00:10:43.100 anything like that you know i've heard great things about it the joke being that i decided to try and

00:10:49.020 put in a list to make my case to make the joke funnier and of course you know i went after the

00:10:55.640 biggest corporations i've got nothing against those corporations i did check that you know i was

00:11:01.060 faxed right and the lawyer said yeah that's fine you know they they quickly they quickly google it and

00:11:05.800 say have we got a case here but there's no malice i haven't i haven't really got anything against

00:11:11.060 anyone in the room do you know what i mean it's all for the joke if the joke was better the other

00:11:15.780 way around i would have done it the other way around you know this this this this myth that

00:11:22.220 every joke is a window to the comedian's true soul i i'll change that i'll flip it i'll pretend to be

00:11:29.060 left wing right wing no wing i'll pretend to be anything to make that joke better i'll just i'll decide

00:11:35.020 halfway through i should take the other side no but it makes the joke better i do think you were

00:11:39.260 landing a a deadly earnest blow against at least apple there i mean because you know we were aware

00:11:46.480 that they have you know they're they're outsourcing the production of iphones to foxconn and you've got

00:11:51.020 you literally have people jumping to their deaths from the rooftops of those factories because their

00:11:56.140 lives are so intolerable i mean that that story had been in the news and i mean you could in a more

00:12:02.440 recent vein make the point that you know apple is evading taxes by basically running its trillion

00:12:09.120 dollar business through a post office box in ireland right i mean it's just it's incredible

00:12:13.840 and right but i'm sort of saying to people i'm not your man if you think that i'm if i if you think

00:12:20.740 i'm shea gevara of the of the capitalist modern world you're wrong they would they were jokes

00:12:27.140 and my private life might happen to align with the jokes and of course you you you want to be on the

00:12:34.760 you know the right side unless unless uh you're saying the the wrong thing for a funny reason

00:12:41.720 you know um as i say a lot of my stand-up i play the right wing bigot for for comic effect you know

00:12:49.000 irony is a lovely it's a lovely tool to deliver the right message that sounds like the wrong message so

00:12:55.700 it you know you have to really look at look at the joke and look deep and but in general i'm not i'm

00:13:03.680 not this social justice warrior for either side it's how good is that joke and of course the more

00:13:11.160 truth there is to it the more awkward it is or you know it wouldn't be fair if it wasn't true if if

00:13:17.680 none of that was true it would just wouldn't be fair do you know i mean i've put jokes out i've

00:13:23.400 looked into and i go oh it's not true it's an urban myth he didn't do that or that so i don't do it

00:13:28.760 because i don't i don't want to i don't want to add to the to the myth and legend when it's bad or it

00:13:36.280 gives someone a bad day and even if it's a joke that there's there's a certain power particularly

00:13:42.620 on that stage and um people make their own minds up sometimes and what you're trying to do

00:13:50.160 but i i read the jokes out and uh everyone was laughing thought great great uh and the head

00:13:58.600 lawyer went oh just one thing you said um when you say uh so this is the joke they they picked up on

00:14:04.720 i i start off with we got to see james corden as a fat pussy he was also in the movie cats but no one

00:14:13.720 saw that and the reviews oh i saw one that said this is the worst thing to happen to cats since

00:14:20.720 dogs dame judy dench defended the movie saying it was the role she was born to play because she likes

00:14:27.300 nothing better than plonking herself down on the carpet lifting her leg and licking her own minge

00:14:32.460 right so first thing he says is uh that when um when you say pussy there you mean because he was in

00:14:39.660 cats i went yep right i went okay i thought this is easy this is easy god okay right let's have some

00:14:48.200 more of this then any other questions right and then i said uh uh is minge okay i went yeah it's a

00:14:56.800 it's a a funny little euphemism uh it's an english word i said they won't even know what it means i

00:15:01.660 don't think if americans even use it and then someone looked up and said oh it says vulgar term

00:15:07.020 for vagina i went well of course it's a vulgar term for vagina if you're not if you're not a doctor

00:15:14.160 and you're saying of course it's a vulgar term if you want to use this vagina it's going to be a

00:15:20.780 everything's a vulgar term for vagina yeah and they went oh it worried them just because they looked

00:15:26.520 up and it was like you know on the definition vulgar i went right um i said well what can i say for

00:15:33.280 vagina and the lawyer went you could say vagina i went i'm not going to say vagina that's so much

00:15:40.020 worse but i'm actually now literally discussing danger and she's vagina no it's gotta be it's got

00:15:47.740 there's got some sort of funny twist to it and silliness to it otherwise it's a funny word too

00:15:53.640 yeah it means it's a funny word it's a it's a it is a euphemism it's like didn't say i didn't say it

00:15:59.600 you know i thought it would be safe because americans would guess what i meant but they

00:16:03.760 wouldn't be offended by it because they just have learned that word if i make up a word for vagina

00:16:08.620 it's not offensive if i suddenly go clabber clab right and you know that means vagina you're not

00:16:14.840 offended by it because you don't use it right so i went oh what can i what can i use then people

00:16:20.780 saying box i was going i'm not going to say box they were coming up with much worse the lawyers

00:16:26.740 are pitching you

00:16:27.660 everyone was chipping in okay i'm not going to say that and so i said what about flange we say that

00:16:37.780 as well and i like that word minge and flange i like those nge words because they're nice and funny

00:16:43.940 and soft and like you know i've used them in my book flanimals for kids i say blunging you know

00:16:50.240 and mung fuddler there it's a funny nge nge is a funny syllable so they went uh yeah that's fine

00:16:59.400 and then someone looked it up one of the execs and went oh it means it's a slang term for something in

00:17:04.880 a sink here so that i confused and i went right okay right and so we went through it right and we're

00:17:11.860 going through all the things i'm not going to say that that's worse i'm not going to say that

00:17:15.340 that's where all this sort of stuff right uh once once it's quim and i went i'm not saying quim that's

00:17:20.860 really horrible i'm not gonna say i don't actually even know that word i've never heard quim yeah i

00:17:26.480 think it's an old i think it's an old anglo-saxon word maybe but anyway it's a no it's our worst

00:17:33.680 connotations it's like a real bro word you know it's horrible right so i wanted a playful silly

00:17:40.420 word for it right the important thing was i was talking about her being a cat and what cats do

00:17:46.480 it's not you know we were getting sidetracked here right and uh so i i convinced them that i said you

00:17:55.200 will not get one complaint for the word minge why would you get a complaint they'd have to they know

00:18:00.160 what i mean right licking their own minge but they won't know exactly what they won't complain right

00:18:05.700 and they went okay okay same minge and i went but you won't bleep it will you because i thought

00:18:11.400 if you bleep it that sort of ruled the joke people go what was that so i went no we won't bleep it

00:18:16.800 so we went with minge they did bleep it anyway they did oh wow they did i heard it online and

00:18:23.340 it was on bleep right no they bleeped it right but i knew they would so i pointed so i thought i still won

00:18:31.400 wow it is quite a game of chess i didn't realize that you had that going on just to get to that

00:18:38.800 podium i often have to talk people down all my career i've i've talked people down through when

00:18:44.460 they're worried about something they go all that and what they're worried about is writing a letter

00:18:48.480 and once you and very often once you explain to them what the joke is because again everyone's human

00:18:54.080 and you know execs and tell you no different they they sometimes mistake the subject of a joke with the

00:19:00.160 actual target and they're nervous because their job's on the line they don't want to complain

00:19:04.600 they don't want to get i've never had a complaint upheld in my whole career what what about personally

00:19:10.640 with respect to the people you and do you know yeah no i don't want to i don't want to uh no but i i'd

00:19:16.320 uh i i'm pretty sure i give her the benefit of the doubt that she'd have a sense of humor

00:19:21.000 what what what what have i what have i said that's so horrible the the joke is she acted like a cat

00:19:27.720 if you like you know and and cats lick their own bits it's as simple as that that's what's funny

00:19:34.060 that you leave those bits out of art you know it's it's quite a it's quite a funny trope i'm sure

00:19:40.320 every cartoon every adult cartoon who's shown a cat or a dog are shown and doing something that cats

00:19:46.180 and dogs do unlike you know children's cartoons you know so it was no big deal for me but yeah i've

00:19:53.540 often had to talk people down and explain to them why it's okay i've said i've offered i've offered to

00:19:59.020 write the letter and sometimes they just want someone to you know take charge and tell them

00:20:04.020 why it's okay if memory serves i think they they cut to tom hanks looking shocked on your punchline

00:20:11.600 there yeah that became a big meme that uh that people thought that he was disgusted enough himself

00:20:18.960 i'm not sure i just thought he thought cool didn't expect that right and did it you know did a nice

00:20:24.720 face when the camera came to him or oh that was a bit that was a bit warm for these nice well i don't

00:20:30.160 think he was being particularly damning of me or i don't know i i have no idea and i don't know you

00:20:36.340 know you see the cut later and you i can't even remember what he actually did it to i think

00:20:41.940 i can't remember what bit he did it to i think it was it was on it was on your delivery of minge

00:20:46.660 that's it he would go go right to go right to hanks there's somebody in the control

00:20:51.920 i get hanks has got something in his mouth

00:20:54.600 it is a good word when i got um i remember after it um i got home and uh james said oh you should

00:21:05.540 have said clunge i thought oh i should have said clunge it's perfect clunge because that's the same

00:21:10.940 it's english it but again they would have probably looked it up and it would have said

00:21:14.880 vulgar term for bits and pieces um but i think it's non-specific clunge as well i think uh it's

00:21:22.480 uh men and women it's just the stuff you shove into your pants whether you're a man that's your

00:21:27.560 clunge yeah these are these are esoteric terms i i don't know half of these you guys you have you

00:21:35.820 you're deep in the euphemism game over there yeah yeah yeah i'm uh i'd be pretty good at euphemisms

00:21:42.360 because um they are a fine tool to get round things and but the best thing is you know make

00:21:48.460 them up make a word up yeah it's just as it's it's just as good if you if you really don't want to get

00:21:53.220 a complaint that you know the english are great at euphemisms because uh and innuendo we're i mean

00:22:00.080 we've got a whole strand of british comedy based on innuendo and that can be anything from bad puns

00:22:07.360 to you know like that we had there's there's a spate of films in the sort of 60s and 70s called

00:22:12.760 carry-on films where it was all that it was all matron you know and uh right um someone would come

00:22:19.520 in and see a building and go what's the unsightly erection you know it's that sort of that sort of

00:22:25.520 bawdy and then there would be things like a door would shut and um you'd hear which was you know

00:22:33.040 euphemistic for them yeah so we we uh and uh we have a thing called pantomime which i don't think

00:22:40.320 you have which is a you know an old cinderella or something but done with modern jokes with you know

00:22:47.940 modern sort of stars and actors and it's all it's all in jokes and puns for the parents that the kids

00:22:54.620 don't get so you know quite a a vaudeville are sort of on two levels you know naughty naughty

00:23:02.240 innuendos that on the face of it don't go so you know yeah all right so back to the question which

00:23:07.280 you've neatly evaded is there anything that you won't do now i mean so for instance you you went

00:23:13.740 after caitlin jenner hard a few years ago well did i though did i have to did i didn't know you know

00:23:19.800 that's the thing because obviously the the thing that was picked up out of that was the possible

00:23:24.980 transphobia but you know again i addressed that in humanity no my point is that i don't go out there

00:23:32.720 and say i'm allowed to be transphobic i deny i am transphobic because i'm not transphobic just like

00:23:39.440 i'm not racist when i joke about race it's like i'm i i'm not i'm not pro-cancer when i joke about

00:23:48.460 cancer see this is the thing people get that they see people in the audience they see a joke

00:23:54.020 they go he's joking about famine he's joking about cancer he's joking about AIDS he's still oh that's

00:23:58.560 my thing you know again in humanity i did a i did a thing on uh jimmy fallon a joke i say i was on a

00:24:07.680 flight and uh the announcement came over someone is fatally allergic to nuts so we're not handing out

00:24:15.680 any nuts on this flight and i go it's talking about me being selfish and i go i never wanted

00:24:21.500 nuts more out that they are infringing on my human right to eat nuts right and i go i wish i bought my

00:24:27.520 own nuts on the joke being that i'm so selfish that if i bought my own nuts on i would eat them and this

00:24:32.720 person would die you know and i go so uh uh and i had to spend a whole a whole day on that plane just

00:24:40.880 because someone would die if i had nuts i go to avoid that having happened again what i do now

00:24:45.000 before i fly is i rub myself down in nuts right so the joke being that i'm that mental

00:24:52.480 so i can't have nuts but i can still kill this person right so clearly a joke and it never happened

00:24:59.700 obviously none of that ever happened and i did it on jimmy fallon and uh you laugh at it the next day

00:25:05.780 on twitter i'll get uh i'd wake up to about 10 tweets this woman how dare you joke about food

00:25:12.220 allergies and i look what goes um i've got a daughter who's fatally allergic to nuts there's

00:25:16.100 no laughing matt it's disgusting do you know how many people die and uh i think ignore it and then

00:25:20.960 she starts adding in jimmy fallon and mbc i'll ignore it and then she said you should never joke

00:25:27.000 about food allergies so that that was a really weird yeah so i sent back i joke about cancer aids

00:25:37.880 famine and the holocaust and you're telling me i shouldn't joke about food allergies and she sent

00:25:43.620 back yes but the holocaust didn't kill children so she's so consumed with how important her thing is

00:25:52.060 which is human we're all like it she can see the jokes she can see the jokes about the holocaust

00:25:59.820 famine as she gets it she gets the joke she gets the irony but she can't see the wood for the trees

00:26:05.960 because it means something to her so her emotions overwhelm the critical aspect of this why you know

00:26:14.260 if she's had her own way all those other jokes are okay but not that one and everyone's a bit like

00:26:21.520 that i've had it before i had a i did a routine on an early thing about anne frank um when i joke

00:26:27.180 about i say i've been watching a lot of discovery channel and the history channel ask me anything

00:26:31.800 about sharks and nazis right and i say about how amazing i'll go uh sharks are amazing nazis

00:26:38.700 horrible sharks are amazing they can they can sense blurred one part in a million they do i'd always

00:26:45.100 think about sharks a shark would have found anne frank like that right but the nazis so stupid

00:26:51.320 every day they go what's that noise what's that tapping and i mime the typewriter i go nothing

00:26:56.920 rats move on right and uh and anyway i do this routine that the nazis can't find anne frank like

00:27:03.840 she's you know up there just typing away and uh i got a letter from a jewish society in america uh

00:27:10.620 saying we enjoyed the show we enjoyed the stand that we enjoyed everything so we were very disappointed

00:27:15.700 about your jokes about um anne frank with the i sent back i said but you know i was joking about

00:27:21.040 famine and cancer yeah i went well i'm joking about that i've got nothing i think it's a terrible

00:27:25.900 fit and i explained to them i go i you know i joke about the terrible things it doesn't mean i condone

00:27:31.080 them i i i you know i'm the same person as you i think and they went oh thank you for your

00:27:37.400 explanation and as and it's like they've never worked that out yeah it's amazing that that would

00:27:42.600 actually have been information to them exactly but i get it i get it it's hard yeah it's hard to

00:27:50.420 you know divorce yourself and what people you know i i've done it on twitter before i um i've i've said

00:27:58.520 uh what should never be joked about what should never be joked about and people it's nice normal

00:28:05.920 people sincerely answer and of course every answer is funny right because they've imposed this with

00:28:13.100 like one person said losing two children right that's well yes setting the the bar at two rather

00:28:21.720 than one yeah and like my brain was asking as he lost two is this this is very specific like he could

00:28:27.920 deal with it you know it's mind-blowing with the confidence that they say losing three children is

00:28:34.040 funnier yeah i know but also but they they listed it between them they listed every disease and any

00:28:40.680 specific disease is funny yeah because they didn't list all the others yeah why didn't they list all the

00:28:47.300 others so no there is no i won't joke about there's a real irony here i guess irony captures the shape of

00:28:58.480 it some of the same people so like when i think about let's say hiring someone and having to worry

00:29:04.700 about their history of tweets right is there something in this person's history that is going to

00:29:10.480 kind of blow back on on me or them and and become a problem arguably you know i i shouldn't think much

00:29:17.680 about that i i don't tend to think much about that but that is something that many people think about

00:29:22.720 now whereas you could hire someone who has been convicted of murder right serve their time yeah and

00:29:33.620 you are now part of their redemption story and the same people who would try to destroy you for having

00:29:40.280 hired someone who's trailing some bad tweets would celebrate you for hiring someone who killed the

00:29:46.800 family and has been brought back into some sphere of redemption and forgiveness well that well that's

00:29:53.060 the thing isn't it that um i think uh same as you i'm i'm an atheist but there's there's a couple of

00:29:59.600 things i quite like in the bible and one is you know let he who is without sin cast the first stone

00:30:04.420 i think people have forgotten that particularly on social media i've never seen such vindictive people

00:30:09.780 wanting blood and wanting to destroy people because they're they're on the wrong side and again it's

00:30:15.160 tit for tat people are doing it well if you're doing that i'm doing this you know and i did a tweet

00:30:20.460 a couple of years ago it was a tweet about um freedom of speech and it was a quote from churchill

00:30:26.500 and uh someone said you know he's a white supremacist and i tweeted back not in that tweet he's not

00:30:33.140 not that's nothing to do with it the quote has nothing to do and it's not enough now that you can't you're

00:30:40.900 if someone doesn't like you liking someone for some reason they'll find a completely different

00:30:46.780 reason why you shouldn't like them because they're not on the right side no one looks at an argument

00:30:50.660 anymore they look at who's saying it and if they're on the wrong side they're discredited there's no

00:30:55.500 nuance you know like i did a tweet you know i'm a typical old-fashioned lefty socialist you know

00:31:04.180 anti-racist anti-sexist anti-homophobic kind of guy but if i tweet about freedom of speech i'm

00:31:11.620 suddenly alt-right and it's true because it's odd that that's become a right-wing thing because

00:31:20.120 some people think that because free speech could allow you to say awful things that the concept of

00:31:28.200 speech is the wrong thing that's what's weird right and you need the only way you fight a horrible

00:31:35.220 hateful speech is nice speech proving the hateful speech wrong that's you know if you if you curb

00:31:43.980 free speech it's a fun it's an absolute fundamental right that all other rights rely on yeah and it seems

00:31:52.320 odd to me that people are willing to make exceptions and they come up with strange nebulous terms like

00:32:00.420 yeah not hate speech i want to go what's what what what's hate speech well it turns out that hate

00:32:05.360 speech is something that anyone doesn't like that doesn't want to be they don't want to hear it you

00:32:11.180 know right except there are people so for instance and i've gotten some pushback for my position here but

00:32:17.460 i don't know how closely you followed the um the de-platforming of certain people like obviously

00:32:23.800 donald trump is yeah the big one but before him alex jones you know i was certainly in favor of

00:32:30.640 kicking alex jones off twitter and everywhere else he got kicked off of because of what he was doing

00:32:36.940 i mean the fact that i mean that to be manufacturing lies about parents who have just had their kids

00:32:43.400 well ah hold on wait a minute there now now we're getting into it now because there are loads of

00:32:48.920 caveat already to free speech already there are loads and i agree with them all i i i think i agree

00:32:55.700 with every single one of them as i said from libel to slander to to food additives uh even to watershed

00:33:03.020 and you know private places because i i agree with them all but one the one i don't agree with is

00:33:10.080 someone's right to not hear something they don't like right that's what we can't do so that joke is

00:33:17.100 unpleasant well it might be but you know it's that thing you shouldn't pave the jungle you should put on

00:33:25.520 better boots you know you can walk away you can turn it off the best form of censorship is your right

00:33:31.580 not to listen and people get confused what freedom of speech is they think that freedom of speech is their

00:33:38.340 right to be heard and understood and taken seriously is none of that you know it's it's a

00:33:43.740 very delicate thing but it is written there are rules and all you have to do is look them up and

00:33:49.720 then you'll know but you and you we have different rules too i mean you are governed by things are far

00:33:56.300 more restrictive in the uk and well whenever i hear about these specific cases of people being brought

00:34:01.720 to the attention of the police for having said something that was offensive to public morals or

00:34:07.460 whatever it gets phrased over there it sounds frankly insane to me well america i mean that's

00:34:12.680 the problem with the internet isn't it that it's global but rules are local but it you know it's been

00:34:19.440 going people muddy the water you know there's there's one side that thinks some people want free speech so

00:34:26.820 they can go around saying awful things all the time well that's not true and even if it was let's look at

00:34:32.300 that and then the other side they do want to say awful things all the time to annoy the other side

00:34:37.540 so it's this horrible you know vicious circle and but that's why we're not in charge that's why

00:34:45.780 that's why we can't decide whether someone has the death penalty or not that it goes to a court of law

00:34:53.580 otherwise we do things you know if if one of our friends is murdered and they ask us on the street

00:35:00.700 what should we do with him you go kill him yeah but that's but law takes that out of it takes out this

00:35:06.160 this seeing through you know anger and all those things but the de-platforming taking donald trump

00:35:13.880 i'm still torn about that because i'm the same as you i'm no fan of donald trump never have been

00:35:20.380 and uh but twitter saying uh he's breaking our rules is one thing but then i think the delicate

00:35:29.380 thing about that is is don't they become a publisher as opposed to a platform so aren't they then

00:35:34.800 responsible for everyone can i can i now sue people for saying something horrible to me on twitter

00:35:40.320 can i sue twitter it's very complicated i think it's there are edge cases certainly where it's i mean

00:35:47.700 first of all twitter has for this whole time been de-platforming people for ridiculous things

00:35:54.040 so by that standard donald trump should have been de-platformed years ago i mean he's literally

00:36:00.080 threatened nuclear war on twitter every single case you could go down a rabbit hole and argue about it

00:36:06.340 forever and that's what that's what why we have to have principle and i think people are confused by

00:36:12.840 principle i think it's a genuinely confusing thing i i you know i get it i always get it i get it when

00:36:19.940 someone backs down because they lose their livelihood or their friends or their career or their family

00:36:24.400 you know i you know it's you know integrity can cost that's why it's a valuable sort of asset because

00:36:34.680 integrity can cost people everything and i you know i i i get it i i get it why people are scared to say

00:36:43.780 the wrong thing because they can lose a job and it's easy to say well they shouldn't but then then

00:36:49.360 someone will say what about this guy and you go well that's different that's a different principle

00:36:52.880 people as i say people are confused with principle because they have a million examples and all those

00:36:59.320 examples are wrong but on the face of it they look the same someone got fired why well people don't

00:37:06.700 accept there's a sliding scale of morality i think that's the the problem there's this weird sort of

00:37:12.600 binary sort that if anyone has done something wrong and you don't like them they're hitler it's a it's as

00:37:19.520 simple as that you know uh you know that there's who has that got in trouble someone got in trouble for

00:37:26.560 what's that that actress who got fired from disney for saying conservatives are like gina carano

00:37:34.600 says they were pretty from the mandalorian she said something like conservatives are are now like the

00:37:41.280 jews under hitler or something like that the jews during yeah in the run-up to the holocaust i actually

00:37:47.660 don't like obviously i don't support that comparison but this idea that you can never make a comparison

00:37:52.740 to nazis or hitler or the holocaust no this was weird because you know people on the other side

00:37:58.520 were saying trump's like hitler so surely that's that's as bad you know um and yeah it is a fucking

00:38:06.320 stupid thing to say also a bad comparison ridiculous exaggeration but that's what metaphor is that's what

00:38:12.860 analogy is you know that's what in poetry people say you know i would die for you and though you know

00:38:19.600 they don't you know if you start taking everything literally there is no poetry anymore or metaphor or

00:38:25.760 you know exaggeration exaggeration comedy is exaggeration comedy is exaggeration so it's very

00:38:32.780 difficult and sometimes it comes down that people aren't smart you know but i think as sometimes there's

00:38:41.540 malice i think people sometimes get it but they don't care they won't defend someone they don't like

00:38:47.840 on principle because they just want to see them go down yeah yeah this is all too common yeah the

00:38:53.700 primary sin i've been seeing now for for years is that the people who don't like you have added a

00:39:03.180 rule to the rule book that they deem ethical and it's obviously yeah unethical if they can figure out

00:39:10.500 the worst possible construal of the thing you said even when it's obviously not the intended meaning

00:39:17.780 they will seek to hold you to that yeah and defame you on the basis of that so for instance you know

00:39:24.420 in this case gina caranos is being reacted to like she's completely disregarding the horror of the

00:39:31.800 holocaust and thinks that what's happening to conservatives in hollywood right now is exactly as bad

00:39:37.700 as yeah rounding people up and putting them in the gas chambers now obviously i mean in our defense

00:39:44.160 stupid yeah but you know it's just lazy and idiotic but no one actually believes she believes that right

00:39:50.240 i know but if stupid was a crime we'd all be in jail you know um yeah but yeah and it's i understand

00:39:57.800 there's degrees of damage and i you know and sometimes all people want to you know it's different

00:40:03.940 with an individual shout out of a window and when people think that they're given a platform if if she

00:40:09.980 was a presenter and she was saying that on the bbc news i think there'd be much more of a case

00:40:15.420 say what you know what what why why is that of course yeah yeah this is irresponsible but i really

00:40:23.500 do think i i'm uncomfortable talking about these issues i'm uncomfortable talking about freedom of

00:40:28.620 speech now i'm uncomfortable because it seems so unjust but if you defend it you're you're labeled right

00:40:36.900 wing and you know i can say you know just you know pointing out whether someone's left or right

00:40:42.340 wing it doesn't win the argument but you know what it does to them someone someone who thinks it's

00:40:48.400 fundamentally wrong and let's not forget the people on all sides think they're right they actually think

00:40:56.520 they're right they they've convinced themselves that you know everything on this side is right and

00:41:01.740 everything on that side is wrong or they've gone and not everything on this side is right but if

00:41:07.020 we can take down one of their generals we'll win the war you know some of it is tactical it is tactical

00:41:13.740 and i don't want to be caught up in it i don't want to you know uh be fired or hated or for something

00:41:20.940 i said that i didn't mean but but as you say it doesn't matter how clear you are they take it out of context

00:41:27.120 and they they decide your motives but the the most frightening one is easily in 10 years time

00:41:34.080 this conversation could get us both fired well i hope to have a good laugh when that happens

00:41:40.940 i'll see you in 10 years i'm gonna have a tea now i mean dinner tea means dinner well it's a i think

00:41:46.680 it's a working class thing i used to say breakfast uh lunch and tea tea was like six o'clock but i think

00:41:53.580 past people say um breakfast luncheon and dinner at eight uh it's funny it's as i get older uh yeah

00:42:02.540 i'll i'll eat at sort of seven i'll be in bed at half 10 we watch some like european dramas and

00:42:09.220 they're saying things like uh we'll see you at dinner tonight yes i'll pick you up at 10 i want to go

00:42:12.940 fuck off will you i'll be in bed then pissed you're not being yeah you and you and p diddy great all right

00:42:19.660 then brilliant see you later

00:42:21.600 you

Making Sense - Sam Harris - February 16, 2021

#237 — Another Call from Ricky Gervais

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