Making Sense - Sam Harris - #242 — Psychedelics and the Self

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.860 This is Sam Harris.

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00:00:52.280 Okay, a lot going on out there in the world.

00:01:05.380 Lots of shootings and other chaos,

00:01:08.400 and just absolutely abysmal coverage of seemingly everything in the media.

00:01:17.480 If ever we needed a sign that journalism was broken,

00:01:23.280 my God, some of the stories we're telling ourselves now.

00:01:27.700 But rather than get pulled into that morass,

00:01:32.500 I will press on here.

00:01:34.260 But I'll be doing some more AMAs.

00:01:36.700 That might be the context in which to process a lot of this topical stuff.

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00:02:22.640 Okay.

00:02:25.020 Today I'm speaking with James Fadiman.

00:02:28.760 Jim is a psychologist who has degrees from Harvard and Stanford.

00:02:34.320 He's also taught at four different universities.

00:02:37.180 And has had a very long-standing influence on the topic of psychedelics.

00:02:43.780 He is one of the early researchers here.

00:02:46.640 And is probably more responsible than anyone for the phenomenon of microdosing.

00:02:52.220 He's written several books.

00:02:54.680 Most relevantly here, The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide.

00:02:58.100 He also has a new book on the structure of the self that he co-authored with Jordan Gruber,

00:03:06.420 titled Your Symphony of Selves.

00:03:09.300 And in today's conversation, we cover the terrain in both those books, to some degree.

00:03:15.100 The first half is entirely on psychedelics.

00:03:17.560 How to think about taking them.

00:03:20.440 Who should take them.

00:03:21.280 Who shouldn't take them.

00:03:22.980 Considerations of set and setting.

00:03:25.240 The role of a guide.

00:03:27.120 The effects of microdosing.

00:03:28.780 The difference between MDMA and other proper psychedelics.

00:03:32.580 So-called good and bad trips.

00:03:35.280 The power of thought.

00:03:37.480 And then we move on to a discussion about the nature of the self.

00:03:41.360 And the fiction of there being a unified self.

00:03:44.660 And so we talk about the self in its multiple forms.

00:03:49.120 As states of self and even multiple selves, per se.

00:03:54.560 And how all this might relate to compassion and an understanding of and acceptance of what

00:04:03.100 we are as people.

00:04:05.540 Anyway, if this is your cup of tea, Jim is a very wise companion for this terrain.

00:04:11.480 Apologies for the audio quality.

00:04:14.660 This was one of those conversations during COVID where the local recording failed.

00:04:21.200 So all we had in the end was the backup recording of the actual Zoom conversation.

00:04:26.380 So there are some dropouts on Jim's side.

00:04:30.020 Everything of importance is intelligible.

00:04:32.360 But the audio is certainly less than ideal.

00:04:35.100 So I think your ear will get used to it.

00:04:37.520 And now I bring you James Fadiman.

00:04:39.840 I am here with James Fadiman.

00:04:48.600 Jim, thanks for joining me.

00:04:50.660 It's a great pleasure.

00:04:52.220 We could spend a lot of time trying to figure out our, where our mutual history intersected.

00:04:57.320 I'm about 95% sure that you and I once met face-to-face, at least once.

00:05:04.060 And I'm sure we know many people in common.

00:05:05.880 But perhaps we'll get there organically.

00:05:10.180 But perhaps you can summarize your background here.

00:05:14.420 How do you describe what you've focused on, lo, these many decades that you've been covering the topics we're about to touch?

00:05:23.100 Well, I got involved in psychedelics before I entered graduate school, because Richard Alpert turned me on.

00:05:31.520 And I was living in Paris, writing a very bad novel.

00:05:35.720 And my draft board said, would you like to go to graduate school or Vietnam?

00:05:39.520 And I took the obvious choice and then worked with a clinical group in Menlo Park.

00:05:49.160 And just as I had completed my dissertation on psychedelic therapy, and by the way, I said it was good.

00:05:56.120 The government said, we don't want to know anything more.

00:05:58.920 Thank you very much.

00:05:59.860 And closed us down in the midst of a research project where people were using psychedelics to solve absolutely linear, rational, physical, scientific problems.

00:06:15.100 And then I had another few careers outside of psychedelics, since the government didn't want us to know much.

00:06:22.280 And a number of years ago, got back involved in psychedelic research, particularly in microdosing.

00:06:27.960 And in between, I've worked with and taught a number of psychology systems or life-changing systems like affirmations, psychosynthesis.

00:06:41.780 And I recently just completed a book on internal healthy multiplicity, which was apparently from the outside, like, where did that come from, given what I just told you?

00:06:56.060 And I've been working on that quietly for 25 years and finally got it out.

00:07:01.520 So I'm at a place of feeling a lot of life ambitions, perhaps, or inclinations or directions are in a completed state.

00:07:13.660 So I have a couple of turns left and a lot of things I'm intending to do.

00:07:19.100 And it's a pleasure to be with you.

00:07:22.160 And several of my relatives are very excited because they are long-term fans of yours.

00:07:28.780 And I'm a short-term fan of yours.

00:07:32.340 Nice.

00:07:32.900 Well, the admiration is mutual.

00:07:34.920 I found your books very useful and illuminating.

00:07:40.320 And I want to cover them somewhat systematically here.

00:07:43.620 I think that the focus will be on this first book that—not your first book, but this first book I want to touch, the Psychedelic Explorer's Guide.

00:07:53.960 And I want to have a fairly structured conversation that can be useful to people who are thinking about taking psychedelics, that they are taking them, and how that can be done safely, you know, who should do it, who shouldn't do it, you know, all the related questions here.

00:08:12.740 And then we can—

00:08:14.180 Happy to do those.

00:08:14.940 Yeah, and then we can touch your latest book, which is titled Your Symphony of Selves, which you wrote with co-author Jordan Gruber, and talking about, you know, just how you think about the self or selves, plural, and that could be interesting.

00:08:31.860 But just to get a little more of your backstory, so when were you—you were—you did your graduate work at Stanford, correct?

00:08:39.140 Yeah, that's correct.

00:08:39.920 So you weren't at Harvard getting dosed by Richard Alpert and Tim Leary.

00:08:45.520 How did you—how did you come to—

00:08:46.680 No, I—I—I was just before that, and they—Richard—Richard—Richard—Dick Alpert and I had become friends.

00:08:53.200 I was an undergraduate, and I worked for a summer for him in a research project in California, so—and we actually shared a house.

00:09:00.660 So we were really genuine friends, and I was living in Paris, truly writing a novel, and he showed up on his way to Copenhagen, where he was to present with Aldous Huxley and Tim Leary the first major presentation about psychedelics to the World Council of Psychologists.

00:09:22.580 We met, and I took him to a little cafe on the—Richard Alpert and I are sitting there, and he's—he's really looking and feeling a lot—a lot less neurotic than I knew him to be.

00:09:37.900 He was brilliant, neurotic, ambitious, charming, a lot of wonderful things.

00:09:41.540 And he said, the greatest thing in the world has happened to me, and I want to share it with you.

00:09:46.220 And I thought, well, how bad can that be?

00:09:49.520 And then he took out of his breast pocket a little bottle of pills, and I—I didn't freak out, but I certainly withdrew emotionally.

00:09:57.740 I was so straight, I was not drinking coffee.

00:10:01.180 But he said, here, try this.

00:10:04.220 So I took a pill, which I now would say would be a moderate dose of psilocybin.

00:10:09.180 Mm-hmm.

00:10:10.300 Oh, you said this was synthetic psilocybin.

00:10:12.240 This is not the LSD.

00:10:14.080 Right.

00:10:14.440 Yeah.

00:10:14.760 So this was—they had not—they had not discovered LSD at this time.

00:10:18.000 They started with psilocybin.

00:10:20.300 And after a while, the colors got brighter, and everything began to, you know, jiggle a little with energy.

00:10:29.040 And that was all new to me.

00:10:30.420 And then I was also aware of the conversations behind me as people were walking by, as one does.

00:10:36.840 And then I suddenly realized that my French isn't that good, wasn't that good.

00:10:41.600 And I could never hear those conversations prior to this.

00:10:45.840 And I looked at Dick, and I said, this is really too much for me.

00:10:49.760 And he said, well, why don't we go back to your hotel room?

00:10:52.560 And that was great.

00:10:53.960 And he said, it's too much for me, too.

00:10:55.660 And I said, what do you mean?

00:10:56.640 You haven't taken anything.

00:10:57.780 He said, this is my first night in Paris.

00:10:59.720 So we both withdrew to my sixth-floor walk-up, and some of my cherished beliefs were disassembled about what was valuable and not valuable in my life.

00:11:12.500 Nothing therapeutic breakthrough, but just an awareness that there was a more to the way the world was.

00:11:20.360 But I was still me, and it was still my personality and my issues.

00:11:26.000 And a week later, I had followed Dick to Copenhagen, and where I had another session with him, which was really about human closeness and connection and kindness and support of one another at a level that the words don't handle too well.

00:11:44.640 If we had one more notch up in value of each of those words, that's what it was.

00:11:51.180 Life went on, and a few weeks later, I was at Stanford, and I discovered in one little tiny corner of Stanford a professor who was working with psychedelics.

00:12:03.640 And experience that has forever shifted my awareness, my belief system, and also shifted my career.

00:12:15.300 So that's a little more backstory.

00:12:18.000 When would this have been?

00:12:18.820 Around the early 60s?

00:12:21.220 1961.

00:12:22.600 Yeah.

00:12:22.800 Yeah.

00:12:23.100 Yeah, well, it's, yeah, so I'm sure that you and I met with Richard Alpert, who was then later known as Ram Dass, at some point in the late 80s, somewhere near Stanford.

00:12:40.300 So anyway, it's great to meet again.

00:12:41.840 Before we dive into this, I just want to offer the obligatory disclaimer to our listeners that, you know, we're not giving medical advice.

00:12:49.600 We're not recommending that you personally take psychedelics, and we, obviously, we don't know your personal situation, dear listener.

00:12:59.420 So you just have to read the lines and between the lines in this conversation to extract anything that might be useful to you in your specific situation.

00:13:09.780 I mean, obviously, we're not going to soft-pedal the underlying truth here, which is that psychedelics have been incredibly useful to each of us personally, and the resurgence of research on them holds great promise for everyone, really.

00:13:28.000 And it's one of the happier developments in recent years in psychological science.

00:13:33.900 But obviously, where most people are living, these drugs are likely to be illegal, and therefore you encourage some risk just taking them, however benign your experience on them might be.

00:13:47.060 And, you know, some people can have bad experiences, which we'll get into.

00:13:51.820 So with that caveat out of the way, let's start with general considerations here, Jim.

00:13:59.420 Who should and shouldn't think about taking psychedelics?

00:14:05.080 Well, one of, obviously, the questions I get a lot over the years is, I'm thinking of taking LSD, but, and I say, don't do it.

00:14:15.300 And they say, but I haven't told you my reasons.

00:14:17.560 I said, no, if you feel there's a reason you shouldn't take a psychedelic, you have to listen to that.

00:14:23.080 So my caveat is much stronger than yours, Sam, in that way.

00:14:28.860 And the question of who and who shouldn't take it is only one that can be answered by an individual.

00:14:35.920 I can tell you that if you read the literature, there's a lot of discussion about not having a psychedelic.

00:14:43.960 These are all high-dose discussions we're having right now.

00:14:46.900 Yeah, we'll talk about microdosing later.

00:14:49.160 But for high doses, the science world says, not if you've had a psychotic episode, not if you've been a schizophrenic, not if you're bipolar, and not if you've had a serious mental, you know, something like that.

00:15:03.600 Now, I used to wonder about that, is where did we get that information?

00:15:08.160 So I started searching around, and I asked some of the senior researchers who were friends, and the answer was, actually, there isn't any information like that out there.

00:15:19.100 What there is is people doing research don't want those people in the research, because if they have a bad experience or six months later they have a bad experience that has nothing to do with psychedelics, they will blame it on psychedelics.

00:15:35.440 Now, I follow this a little bit more with bipolar, because that's one of the groups that can never get in any research projects.

00:15:45.620 And if you go online, of course, if you go to the web, of course, there's a group of people who are bipolar who talk to each other.

00:15:52.400 And so I asked them, would you comment, if any of you have had any psychedelic experience, do you have any advice for the other people on this group?

00:16:05.040 And the general advice was from people who had used psychedelics, and I don't know how and under what conditions, but they said, on the manic phase of being bipolar, don't take anything.

00:16:20.020 And on the depressive phase of bipolar, a number of them said that psychedelics had been very helpful.

00:16:27.240 So that's not published, and that's not science, but that's what I call citizen science, which is what's actually happening out there.

00:16:35.640 And it's important to keep, there are a lot of research studies, and most of them are very favorable and exciting.

00:16:40.760 But behind that, since psychedelics were made illegal in the late 60s, early 70s, in the United States, and just the United States, 30 million people have tried high-dose psychedelics, or just LSD, not all psychedelics.

00:16:59.360 And as of yet, we have no deaths, and we have a lot of people who had very unhappy and difficult experiences.

00:17:09.320 But in some senses, it's a very safe, these are safe substances physiologically, and if you don't know what you're doing, you can have a terrible experience, even on a moderate dose.

00:17:21.540 So the variable is having some understanding of what you're doing and what you're learning.

00:17:29.580 And so recommending or not recommending is not something I do except to not recommend unless you know what you're doing.

00:17:36.000 Yeah, this is a bit of a conundrum, however, because even very experienced psychonauts, as you know, can feel significant trepidation when thinking about taking a high dose of anything.

00:17:52.340 I mean, it's just that even knowing what you're in for, even having experiences under your belt that you consider to be not only benign, but incredibly transformative, you still approach this howling abyss with the appropriate awe and concern, you know, often.

00:18:12.120 And even someone as seasoned as Terrence McKenna would talk about the feeling of fear he would live with around this consideration of whether he should trip again.

00:18:25.380 And so if your prescription or non-prescription is, if you feel any hesitation about doing this, don't do it, it's a little hard to apply.

00:18:36.400 Well, that's probably why I put it out there, because it gives people a hesitation.

00:18:40.780 And the image that came to mind, as you were saying it, is skydiving.

00:18:45.120 No matter how many times you skydive and how carefully you check your gear, you know that sometimes people fall out of the sky and the chute doesn't open.

00:18:58.640 And it's not a matter of skill or experience.

00:19:02.340 It's a matter of the facts are that these substances will take you places you do not intend.

00:19:09.460 And I think that's part of the reason why I've backed off from high-dose work and high-dose research, because it can be, it can always be not only a scary experience, which is fine.

00:19:25.620 People, you know, pay a lot of money to be frightened if you've ever been to what's called an amusement park.

00:19:31.480 But the question of benefit is really where I'm looking at.

00:19:37.420 I'm not really that interested in people who kind of are tripping because their streaming service is down.

00:19:46.740 I'm very interested in people who are saying,

00:19:50.420 I really want to learn something important that will perhaps change my life, and therefore I'm preparing appropriately.

00:19:58.780 Hmm.

00:19:59.860 Yeah, I should say, I've said before, that I didn't take any psychedelics for at least 25 years based on the kinds of concerns we've just sketched here.

00:20:11.060 I mean, just a growing awareness of what a colossal spin of the psychological roulette wheel it was.

00:20:20.340 And having had some scary experiences, I decided, you know, meditation was a much more governable game.

00:20:28.960 And so, you know, it wasn't until very recently, about a little over a year ago, that I had my first in several decade significant trip, which I found incredibly useful.

00:20:41.740 But the seriousness of intent that should frame this project is worth emphasizing, because there really is a distinction between a recreational approach to these things.

00:20:54.020 I mean, you're just bored and you want to have fun, and you might do this at a party or do it at a concert or, you know, under conditions where those things exist.

00:21:04.340 Obviously, we're having this conversation during the COVID pandemic, and there's not a lot of either of those things.

00:21:09.360 But people tend to approach this frivolously, and it's not that, you know, that doesn't, certainly doesn't guarantee a bad experience.

00:21:18.800 You can have a great experience doing that, but it's not really the appropriate orientation, in my view.

00:21:27.900 And it sounds like you agree, Jim.

00:21:29.260 It's just that there really is, these are incredibly powerful tools.

00:21:33.560 Well, as my favorite kind of, what, why you have to, why recreational, it may be a little more risky than you think,

00:21:40.120 is my kind of young people who said to me once, we were having this fabulous trip until the car caught on fire.

00:21:49.260 That really shifted everybody's reality in a way that they weren't able to cope.

00:21:53.620 So, we're really looking at something, and actually, in terms of my being conservative,

00:22:00.780 and it's wonderful that psychedelics have moved so far that I'm conservative,

00:22:04.820 is if you're going to have a high-dose experience and you intend to get anything from it,

00:22:11.600 it's very important to have a guide, a companion, a designated driver, so to speak,

00:22:19.020 somebody who knows more than you do and cares about you,

00:22:24.560 that turns out to be a way of preventing almost all strongly negative experiences.

00:22:30.360 Because when you're caught in a negative experience and you're on your own

00:22:33.460 or you're with other people who are off on their own trips, it's very hard to get out.

00:22:39.540 When there's a guide, it's very easy to get out.

00:22:43.000 So, let's talk about that, each of those in chapters.

00:22:46.700 So, I want to talk about the role of a guide here, but this section might be called set and setting.

00:22:54.600 How do you recommend, and again, we're talking about large effective doses here,

00:23:00.000 not micro doses, which we'll talk about later.

00:23:03.080 How do you think about people preparing for a significant trip,

00:23:08.640 whether it's psilocybin or LSD or ayahuasca,

00:23:13.200 or we can talk about specific compounds in a moment.

00:23:16.700 How do you think about the concept of set and setting?

00:23:21.140 Well, what we know is that psychedelics are incredibly sensitive to set or your mental attitude

00:23:28.600 and setting, the literally physical situation you're in,

00:23:32.400 and that includes the other people who are around.

00:23:34.680 And the main reason that I wrote that book, The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide,

00:23:40.780 is for the first two chapters, which detail how to become a good journeyer,

00:23:46.420 how to set yourself up the best way possible,

00:23:50.880 and also how a guide should behave and what knowledge they should have.

00:23:57.780 Because it's not a simple question.

00:24:00.600 But fundamentally, the question is always,

00:24:04.480 do you feel safe?

00:24:05.900 Is it truly safe?

00:24:07.840 Is it private so you won't be disturbed?

00:24:11.160 And do you have some idea of what you,

00:24:14.040 do you understand the substance?

00:24:15.780 Do you understand what the doses are like?

00:24:19.380 And do you have some intentions?

00:24:22.580 And perhaps that's what set is about,

00:24:24.860 which is what do you intend?

00:24:27.220 And it is likely that you will have what you intend,

00:24:32.200 but you'll have something else that goes with it.

00:24:35.880 So all of those are important.

00:24:38.260 And I think the way I've said it is it's set and setting and situation,

00:24:41.600 which is what's your life situation?

00:24:44.020 If your life situation is very difficult,

00:24:46.500 even if you're in a lovely set and setting,

00:24:49.380 it's not going to,

00:24:50.140 your life situation is going to impinge on that

00:24:52.520 and you're going to be in trouble.

00:24:54.060 What's the substance?

00:24:55.300 Do you know what you're taking?

00:24:56.780 If you bought it illegally,

00:24:58.420 has it been tested?

00:25:00.620 The word I use then is sitter,

00:25:02.680 because I'm actually trying just to use S's,

00:25:04.800 because you do that when you write books.

00:25:07.780 But a sitter is almost like a coach.

00:25:11.060 And a coach doesn't bother you

00:25:12.880 unless something is needed to be helped.

00:25:16.980 So if you, for instance,

00:25:18.200 you're lying on a couch,

00:25:20.180 you have music,

00:25:20.980 you take off the headphones,

00:25:22.160 you sit up and you said,

00:25:23.300 I think I'm dying.

00:25:25.520 And you do.

00:25:26.840 You think you're dying

00:25:27.840 and everything in your mind is telling you that.

00:25:32.040 And the guide, friend, sitter,

00:25:34.660 looks over at you and said,

00:25:35.940 oh, that's great.

00:25:37.820 And reaches out his hand or her hand.

00:25:40.320 And part of you says,

00:25:42.800 wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:25:43.420 I just said I'm dying.

00:25:44.500 And this person who I know and love says it's great.

00:25:48.120 And then another part of you said,

00:25:49.260 oh,

00:25:49.600 I took this substance

00:25:51.960 and it's taking me in a different,

00:25:54.380 and I'll just see what,

00:25:56.240 what actually is being,

00:25:58.100 by the notion that I'm dying.

00:25:59.280 And what people then find out,

00:26:01.360 and this is more on reflection later,

00:26:03.240 is as your ego is noticing

00:26:05.560 that it's about to be demoted

00:26:07.320 from amazingly important

00:26:10.000 to something that is useful,

00:26:13.080 it often will come up

00:26:14.960 with these amazing scenarios

00:26:16.580 of what a bad idea it is

00:26:19.060 for the rest of you

00:26:20.740 to discover the correct placement

00:26:23.680 or the correct kind of status

00:26:25.780 of your so-called identity.

00:26:28.420 Remember,

00:26:29.900 Alan Watts had a wonderful comment

00:26:31.560 as he would look in the mirror

00:26:32.640 and he'd say,

00:26:34.280 what percentage of me

00:26:35.800 has ever heard of Alan Watts?

00:26:39.220 If you just look at yourself physiologically,

00:26:41.440 the answer is a tiny amount of your brain

00:26:43.700 has to do with your identity.

00:26:45.400 And the rest of it really has other,

00:26:46.940 other preoccupations.

00:26:49.680 So that's part of what I'm suggesting

00:26:52.980 is why preparation is important.

00:26:55.800 Do you want to say any more

00:26:57.840 about the role of a guide?

00:26:59.160 I mean, can a guide be simply

00:27:01.640 any well-intentioned person

00:27:03.420 who's not tripping along with you

00:27:06.300 or does it require some special experience?

00:27:09.320 Well, the fact of the matter

00:27:11.380 is that most people

00:27:12.440 do not have access

00:27:13.560 to highly trained,

00:27:15.100 sophisticated guides

00:27:16.500 who participated in research studies,

00:27:19.560 et cetera.

00:27:21.020 So the reality of it,

00:27:23.180 what my opinion or not,

00:27:24.520 is that very kind, loving people

00:27:26.840 who've had prior psychedelic experiences

00:27:30.020 that are positive

00:27:30.880 often can be very healthy, safe guides.

00:27:35.600 Again, the term is close

00:27:39.820 to designated driver

00:27:41.100 where you don't need someone

00:27:43.380 who is an auto mechanic

00:27:44.600 and a race car driver

00:27:45.700 to be your designated driver.

00:27:47.160 You need someone

00:27:47.680 who has control of their feelings

00:27:50.060 and emotions,

00:27:51.040 is physiologically sound,

00:27:52.940 and who knows how to drive.

00:27:55.240 So it would be,

00:27:56.680 there is a whole class of people

00:27:59.020 known as guides.

00:28:02.140 According to Michael Pollan

00:28:03.580 in his work for his book,

00:28:05.280 he says there are hundreds of them

00:28:06.440 across the country.

00:28:08.460 There is even an international guild of guides

00:28:11.580 which has been formed

00:28:13.280 in the Netherlands.

00:28:14.760 So there is an occupation

00:28:16.380 where you can actually,

00:28:19.700 in many locations,

00:28:20.960 find people who will,

00:28:23.120 who have a lot of experience

00:28:24.360 in sitting with people.

00:28:25.860 And so that's a kind of in-between place.

00:28:28.600 And I was struck a few years ago

00:28:31.900 in Berkeley on a,

00:28:33.680 you know, on a power pole,

00:28:36.200 there was stapled a little notice

00:28:38.340 that said trip sitter,

00:28:40.180 which is someone who will sit with you

00:28:41.800 while you are tripping.

00:28:43.140 And it basically gave a phone number.

00:28:45.320 And this was someone

00:28:46.500 who you could hire

00:28:47.660 to come to your house

00:28:49.480 and sit with you.

00:28:50.440 So we are creating

00:28:52.240 a kind of new occupational

00:28:54.380 grouping here

00:28:56.800 of people who know

00:28:58.300 not only a lot more than you do,

00:29:00.340 but consider it,

00:29:01.400 consider it usually

00:29:02.760 more than a vocation

00:29:03.880 to help you.

00:29:05.620 And I guess a final question

00:29:06.600 on setting,

00:29:07.800 how do you think about

00:29:08.520 the difference between

00:29:09.680 taking one of these compounds,

00:29:12.760 let's say LSD or psilocybin,

00:29:14.900 out in nature

00:29:16.360 or, you know,

00:29:17.120 with senses directed outward

00:29:19.660 versus an internal journey,

00:29:23.140 whether you're blindfolded

00:29:25.000 or just in a dark room?

00:29:28.420 Well, I think it's the same discussion

00:29:30.560 you have about mysticism.

00:29:32.400 There's internal mysticism

00:29:34.080 where you go inside,

00:29:35.500 then you find that everything

00:29:36.600 in the universe is inside,

00:29:38.300 or you go outside

00:29:40.040 and you find that everything

00:29:41.560 in the universe is outside.

00:29:43.960 The difference is that

00:29:45.880 if you have,

00:29:47.020 if you're interested more

00:29:48.240 in your own psychodynamics

00:29:49.640 and you have, say,

00:29:52.340 therapeutic intentions,

00:29:54.040 probably you will do better

00:29:55.520 staying inside

00:29:57.440 where you are less

00:30:00.300 literally likely

00:30:01.040 to be distracted

00:30:02.180 by the amazing beauty

00:30:04.560 of the 10,000 things.

00:30:06.640 If you wish to blend more,

00:30:11.580 to become more aware

00:30:13.560 of your continuity

00:30:14.840 with the natural world,

00:30:16.180 then outside is fantastic

00:30:18.600 and will give you

00:30:21.040 a recognition

00:30:22.700 of your continuity

00:30:24.600 with the natural world

00:30:25.720 that is not,

00:30:26.920 that you don't lose,

00:30:28.160 you don't forget.

00:30:30.040 Now, let's talk about dosage

00:30:31.900 and here we can talk about

00:30:33.600 microdosing as well.

00:30:35.160 And am I right in thinking

00:30:36.740 that you're essentially

00:30:37.860 the father of microdosing

00:30:39.420 at this point?

00:30:39.920 I think at the moment

00:30:41.920 I'm probably the person

00:30:44.120 who has the largest number

00:30:47.240 of cases in his research base

00:30:50.540 and has talked the most about it

00:30:52.820 and is probably the most quoted.

00:30:55.920 There's a generation 0.88

00:30:56.880 of researchers coming up

00:30:58.280 fast behind me

00:30:59.840 and will soon push me aside,

00:31:02.380 but for right now,

00:31:05.100 yeah, I'm probably

00:31:06.440 the most well-known person

00:31:09.900 and has done

00:31:11.360 and has reported

00:31:12.720 on microdoses

00:31:13.580 in ways that other people

00:31:15.080 haven't, yeah.

00:31:16.760 Okay, well,

00:31:17.260 that was a walk around

00:31:18.560 what was an attempt

00:31:20.260 at humility

00:31:20.800 and I think it failed.

00:31:22.700 Well, you're going to have

00:31:24.020 to boost the dosage

00:31:25.120 then, I think, Jim.

00:31:26.540 That's always,

00:31:27.560 that's not necessarily

00:31:29.120 always the best suggestion, Sam.

00:31:31.940 So, let's differentiate

00:31:34.040 these two projects

00:31:35.000 because they really are distinct.

00:31:36.640 So, let's talk about

00:31:37.860 macro dosing first.

00:31:40.240 Yeah, let me just go

00:31:40.940 right up the line.

00:31:42.160 Sure.

00:31:42.600 And let's start

00:31:43.900 at around 25 micrograms

00:31:46.460 where people report

00:31:47.640 some psychedelic effects

00:31:49.900 very mild.

00:31:51.740 Of LSD.

00:31:53.320 We're just talking LSD

00:31:54.740 and I'll do it in micrograms.

00:31:56.240 Okay.

00:31:57.280 Around 50 micrograms

00:31:59.160 is a,

00:32:01.020 what was called

00:32:02.120 originally a museum dose

00:32:03.620 and now is called

00:32:04.460 a concert dose

00:32:05.220 and if you've ever wondered

00:32:07.280 when you go to a concert

00:32:08.260 why there's that

00:32:08.980 unbelievably

00:32:09.720 huge light show,

00:32:11.660 it's because

00:32:12.520 such a large percentage

00:32:13.780 of the patrons

00:32:14.420 have come

00:32:15.120 intending to get

00:32:17.200 as much out of the light show

00:32:18.260 as the music

00:32:18.880 and that maybe

00:32:20.720 is 50

00:32:21.440 to 100.

00:32:24.780 At

00:32:25.340 100 micrograms,

00:32:27.200 one can do

00:32:27.940 very hard-nosed

00:32:28.700 scientific research

00:32:29.780 and there's

00:32:31.540 a great many

00:32:32.160 companies around

00:32:33.020 the world

00:32:33.520 some of which

00:32:34.900 admit to it

00:32:35.660 where

00:32:36.240 a number of

00:32:37.460 breakthroughs

00:32:38.100 are attributed

00:32:38.780 to working in that way

00:32:40.720 with that dosage.

00:32:42.060 When you get into

00:32:43.160 the 100 to 200

00:32:44.280 microgram range,

00:32:45.560 it's

00:32:46.180 psychotherapeutic

00:32:47.380 which is

00:32:48.960 you can

00:32:49.640 work with

00:32:50.560 a therapist

00:32:51.300 somewhat the way

00:32:53.060 the therapist

00:32:53.660 wants to,

00:32:54.700 meaning you're still

00:32:55.380 in communication,

00:32:57.600 you will

00:32:58.180 trip off

00:33:00.100 into

00:33:00.700 kind of

00:33:01.460 thought loops

00:33:02.120 if someone,

00:33:02.920 if your therapist

00:33:03.580 says,

00:33:04.360 do you want to

00:33:04.960 look at the

00:33:05.940 death of your mother?

00:33:07.880 10 minutes later

00:33:08.660 you may return

00:33:09.560 to the room

00:33:10.460 and say,

00:33:11.440 yes,

00:33:11.860 thank you

00:33:12.300 for that,

00:33:14.080 I understand it

00:33:14.780 much better

00:33:15.300 and I understand

00:33:15.960 my reactions.

00:33:17.660 Once you go

00:33:18.440 above 200

00:33:19.300 and

00:33:20.340 up to,

00:33:21.620 say,

00:33:22.080 400,

00:33:23.220 then you're

00:33:23.820 usually talking

00:33:24.660 about what

00:33:26.000 is called

00:33:26.460 a transcendent

00:33:27.260 or a mystical

00:33:27.920 or a unity

00:33:28.660 experience.

00:33:29.760 That's when

00:33:30.480 you

00:33:31.380 lose

00:33:33.100 your primary

00:33:33.940 identification

00:33:34.780 with your

00:33:36.860 own

00:33:37.400 physical

00:33:38.980 identity

00:33:40.360 and your

00:33:40.900 own psychological

00:33:41.840 identity.

00:33:42.560 So you are

00:33:42.940 no longer,

00:33:43.620 if I'm

00:33:43.900 taking

00:33:44.980 400 micrograms,

00:33:47.160 at some point

00:33:48.040 Jim Fadiman

00:33:49.920 becomes

00:33:51.060 a subset

00:33:52.160 of the

00:33:53.260 larger being

00:33:54.260 that I

00:33:55.460 feel myself

00:33:56.020 to be.

00:33:56.980 And in

00:33:57.260 that state

00:33:57.920 people report

00:33:59.060 things like

00:34:01.140 experiencing

00:34:02.600 the birth

00:34:03.120 of the

00:34:03.460 universe

00:34:03.840 or

00:34:05.000 physically

00:34:05.560 their own

00:34:06.280 birth

00:34:06.660 or

00:34:07.480 memories

00:34:08.980 of past

00:34:09.780 identities.

00:34:11.560 It's what

00:34:12.420 we called

00:34:13.040 in an

00:34:13.340 original

00:34:13.740 report

00:34:15.100 in the

00:34:15.400 60s

00:34:15.840 the

00:34:16.060 psychedelic

00:34:16.740 experience

00:34:17.500 which is

00:34:18.480 experiencing

00:34:19.340 that your

00:34:20.700 that your

00:34:22.340 Alan Watts

00:34:23.140 said it

00:34:23.420 nicely

00:34:23.720 is you

00:34:24.260 exist

00:34:25.080 your body

00:34:25.920 doesn't end

00:34:26.440 at your

00:34:26.680 fingertips

00:34:27.080 and that

00:34:29.140 is a

00:34:30.320 revelation

00:34:30.940 to people

00:34:31.860 and on

00:34:32.820 their return

00:34:33.680 from that

00:34:34.620 higher dose

00:34:35.580 they often

00:34:36.880 will see

00:34:37.680 that parts

00:34:38.540 of their

00:34:38.940 own

00:34:39.420 emotional

00:34:40.600 physical

00:34:41.100 social system

00:34:42.020 are really

00:34:42.500 defective

00:34:43.180 and they

00:34:44.840 make massive

00:34:45.640 change

00:34:46.160 I recall

00:34:47.420 working with

00:34:47.880 several

00:34:48.180 alcoholics

00:34:48.960 and they

00:34:49.940 were referred

00:34:50.820 by the

00:34:51.160 court

00:34:51.360 so they

00:34:51.680 were not

00:34:52.000 exactly

00:34:52.460 eager to

00:34:52.980 have a

00:34:53.240 psychedelic

00:34:53.780 experience

00:34:54.200 this is

00:34:54.600 the early

00:34:54.960 60s

00:34:55.520 and all

00:34:56.600 of this

00:34:56.820 was not

00:34:57.420 known

00:34:57.780 and each

00:34:59.240 one of

00:34:59.580 them a

00:35:00.120 week later

00:35:00.580 went out

00:35:01.040 and drank

00:35:01.540 and then

00:35:02.800 came back

00:35:03.380 to us

00:35:03.820 and said

00:35:04.180 what have

00:35:04.520 you done

00:35:04.860 to me

00:35:05.280 and we

00:35:05.820 said

00:35:06.140 you know

00:35:06.700 we gave

00:35:07.240 you a 0.57

00:35:07.480 psychedelic

00:35:08.040 and they

00:35:08.740 said but

00:35:09.040 I don't

00:35:09.860 like drinking

00:35:10.560 it doesn't

00:35:11.920 feel good

00:35:12.520 it feels

00:35:12.980 like it

00:35:13.420 shrinks

00:35:13.840 my

00:35:14.220 expanded

00:35:16.100 awareness

00:35:16.500 so

00:35:18.580 there's a

00:35:19.740 wonderful

00:35:20.140 bit of

00:35:20.760 video footage

00:35:21.940 from some

00:35:22.620 work done

00:35:23.580 at Spring

00:35:24.040 Grove

00:35:24.240 Hospital

00:35:24.680 again in

00:35:25.120 the late

00:35:25.360 60s

00:35:25.880 this was

00:35:26.700 40 years

00:35:27.260 later

00:35:27.640 one of

00:35:28.500 these

00:35:28.880 overnight

00:35:30.060 recovered

00:35:30.540 alcoholics

00:35:31.360 and the

00:35:32.500 filmmaker

00:35:32.980 is saying

00:35:33.600 well

00:35:33.880 can you

00:35:35.320 talk about

00:35:35.760 your

00:35:35.900 drinking

00:35:36.180 he says

00:35:36.420 I haven't

00:35:36.720 had a

00:35:36.980 drink

00:35:37.240 in 40

00:35:38.220 years

00:35:38.600 and the

00:35:39.700 filmmaker

00:35:40.600 talks about

00:35:41.560 willpower

00:35:42.180 and the

00:35:42.940 man laughs

00:35:43.800 and says

00:35:45.240 it has

00:35:45.880 nothing to

00:35:46.180 do with

00:35:46.400 willpower

00:35:46.880 I've

00:35:47.400 never had

00:35:48.140 any interest

00:35:48.720 in drinking

00:35:49.280 ever since

00:35:50.000 so a

00:35:52.100 high dose

00:35:52.760 or a

00:35:53.260 mystical

00:35:53.600 experience

00:35:54.380 level dose

00:35:56.140 has a

00:35:57.300 number of

00:35:57.820 additional

00:35:58.280 effects

00:35:58.820 that will

00:35:59.720 not be

00:36:00.200 found at

00:36:00.840 lower doses

00:36:01.400 and that's

00:36:02.060 pretty much

00:36:02.440 all the way

00:36:02.940 down

00:36:03.720 the 200

00:36:05.000 psychotherapeutic

00:36:06.320 dose

00:36:06.580 you have

00:36:06.780 things

00:36:07.160 what will

00:36:07.540 happen

00:36:07.900 at a

00:36:08.260 lower

00:36:08.440 dose

00:36:08.760 etc

00:36:09.120 does

00:36:10.260 that

00:36:10.480 answer

00:36:11.020 what

00:36:11.460 do you

00:36:12.480 consider

00:36:12.800 an

00:36:12.980 analogous

00:36:13.480 dose

00:36:13.760 of

00:36:14.120 mushrooms

00:36:15.000 and or

00:36:17.100 synthetic

00:36:17.540 psilocybin

00:36:18.160 well

00:36:19.540 yeah

00:36:21.540 in the

00:36:22.000 couple of

00:36:22.500 thousand

00:36:22.940 cases

00:36:23.640 I have

00:36:24.320 we have

00:36:24.860 I think

00:36:25.080 one person

00:36:25.760 with synthetic

00:36:26.480 psilocybin

00:36:27.200 so

00:36:27.520 that's

00:36:28.540 interesting

00:36:28.800 it's

00:36:29.440 well I guess

00:36:31.540 it's coming

00:36:32.060 back now

00:36:32.800 right into

00:36:33.260 the research

00:36:33.960 but it's

00:36:34.760 not

00:36:34.880 coming back

00:36:35.640 because there

00:36:36.160 are a lot

00:36:36.440 of people

00:36:36.900 who can

00:36:37.220 make money

00:36:37.640 from it

00:36:38.080 it's

00:36:38.920 coming

00:36:39.160 back

00:36:39.500 research

00:36:40.180 because

00:36:40.480 researchers

00:36:41.120 who

00:36:42.880 come out

00:36:44.000 of a

00:36:44.460 psychopharmacology

00:36:46.280 model

00:36:46.800 want something

00:36:48.220 that's as

00:36:48.680 close to a

00:36:49.380 normal

00:36:49.880 psychologically

00:36:51.080 active

00:36:51.580 substance

00:36:52.220 as possible

00:36:52.960 and they

00:36:54.220 love to

00:36:54.660 have accurate

00:36:55.200 measurement

00:36:55.700 even though

00:36:56.360 the amount

00:36:57.860 a person

00:36:58.360 should take

00:36:59.040 should be

00:37:00.900 based on

00:37:01.560 what the

00:37:01.900 person

00:37:02.300 actually

00:37:02.820 needs

00:37:03.400 not on

00:37:04.860 their weight

00:37:05.600 or their

00:37:07.140 age

00:37:07.580 it's a

00:37:09.940 little bit

00:37:10.300 as if

00:37:10.680 people

00:37:11.260 came in

00:37:11.740 for meals

00:37:12.360 and you

00:37:12.760 gave everyone

00:37:13.580 the exact

00:37:14.380 amount

00:37:14.920 of each

00:37:15.960 food

00:37:16.400 carefully

00:37:17.320 measured

00:37:17.820 and they

00:37:18.860 said

00:37:19.040 but hey

00:37:19.420 I want

00:37:19.980 more

00:37:20.180 potatoes

00:37:20.580 and they

00:37:21.020 said

00:37:21.220 no

00:37:21.480 the study

00:37:22.460 says

00:37:22.940 everyone

00:37:23.780 has to

00:37:24.280 have the

00:37:24.660 exact

00:37:25.000 amount

00:37:25.320 of

00:37:25.440 potatoes

00:37:25.760 so

00:37:26.380 I have

00:37:27.100 obviously

00:37:27.600 some

00:37:27.940 biases

00:37:28.320 about

00:37:29.100 some

00:37:29.420 of the

00:37:29.600 scientific

00:37:29.980 research

00:37:30.580 even the

00:37:31.340 best

00:37:31.580 of it

00:37:31.860 but what

00:37:33.540 we're

00:37:33.660 looking at

00:37:34.200 with

00:37:34.400 psilocybin

00:37:35.040 is

00:37:36.160 three

00:37:36.540 to five

00:37:37.300 grams

00:37:39.100 of

00:37:40.120 mushroom

00:37:40.620 will

00:37:41.920 give you

00:37:42.520 a fairly

00:37:43.620 expansive

00:37:44.360 trip

00:37:45.220 people have

00:37:46.680 taken much

00:37:47.240 more than

00:37:47.680 that

00:37:48.020 and at

00:37:49.000 some

00:37:49.260 point

00:37:49.720 they

00:37:50.360 stop

00:37:51.560 bringing

00:37:52.020 back

00:37:52.520 useful

00:37:53.040 information

00:37:53.720 and so

00:37:54.560 in my

00:37:55.200 world

00:37:55.560 that's

00:37:56.160 what too

00:37:56.440 much

00:37:56.660 of a

00:37:56.900 dose

00:37:57.160 is

00:37:57.440 each

00:37:58.740 mushroom

00:37:59.140 has

00:37:59.420 its

00:37:59.640 own

00:38:00.100 level

00:38:01.400 its own

00:38:02.380 amount

00:38:03.000 of

00:38:03.200 psilocybin

00:38:03.840 even if

00:38:04.260 you have

00:38:04.600 mushrooms

00:38:05.060 from the

00:38:05.500 same

00:38:05.920 little

00:38:07.480 patch

00:38:07.980 the same

00:38:08.720 species

00:38:09.180 they'll

00:38:09.500 be

00:38:09.660 different

00:38:10.000 so it's

00:38:11.400 much

00:38:11.580 harder

00:38:12.020 when you

00:38:12.320 get into

00:38:12.720 natural

00:38:13.100 substances

00:38:13.720 and for

00:38:15.120 example

00:38:15.560 what I

00:38:16.040 know

00:38:16.320 is

00:38:16.640 in

00:38:16.980 ayahuasca

00:38:17.920 the

00:38:19.460 ayahuasquero

00:38:20.100 the

00:38:20.480 shaman

00:38:21.680 who's

00:38:22.060 giving

00:38:22.460 the medicine

00:38:24.960 whether

00:38:25.920 they're

00:38:26.260 trained

00:38:26.700 in

00:38:26.880 South

00:38:27.100 America

00:38:27.540 or

00:38:27.940 one

00:38:28.940 of

00:38:29.040 the

00:38:29.180 hundred

00:38:29.480 or so

00:38:29.860 in

00:38:29.980 Los

00:38:30.180 Angeles

00:38:30.580 they'll

00:38:31.660 give

00:38:31.920 you

00:38:32.060 what

00:38:32.280 they

00:38:32.440 think

00:38:32.720 is

00:38:32.880 a

00:38:33.020 good

00:38:33.200 amount

00:38:33.660 and

00:38:34.580 then

00:38:34.800 later

00:38:35.160 on

00:38:35.680 they

00:38:36.520 will

00:38:36.700 give

00:38:36.960 you

00:38:37.120 more

00:38:37.480 if

00:38:37.720 that

00:38:37.900 seems

00:38:38.200 to

00:38:38.420 be

00:38:38.740 useful

00:38:39.480 now

00:38:40.280 how

00:38:40.480 much

00:38:40.840 is

00:38:40.960 a

00:38:41.100 good

00:38:41.260 amount

00:38:41.680 okay

00:38:42.340 it's

00:38:43.120 a

00:38:43.280 quarter

00:38:43.560 cup

00:38:43.900 it's

00:38:44.100 a

00:38:44.200 half

00:38:44.460 cup

00:38:44.780 they're

00:38:46.540 using

00:38:47.020 their

00:38:47.460 clinical

00:38:47.980 their

00:38:48.540 kind

00:38:48.760 of

00:38:48.880 intuitive

00:38:49.300 knowledge

00:38:50.040 rather

00:38:51.160 than

00:38:51.640 a

00:38:52.080 scale

00:38:52.400 so

00:38:53.400 once

00:38:53.660 you

00:38:53.800 get

00:38:53.980 into

00:38:54.200 organics

00:38:54.720 it's

00:38:54.960 much

00:38:55.300 harder

00:38:55.620 to

00:38:55.840 say

00:38:55.980 what's

00:38:56.280 the

00:38:56.420 right

00:38:56.640 amount

00:38:57.000 when

00:38:57.820 you

00:38:57.960 get

00:38:58.520 into

00:38:58.660 micro

00:38:58.940 dosing

00:38:59.380 it's

00:38:59.660 much

00:38:59.840 easier

00:39:00.180 question

00:39:01.380 of

00:39:01.580 dose

00:39:01.900 has

00:39:02.100 always

00:39:02.540 been

00:39:02.960 subjective

00:39:03.860 and

00:39:05.180 the

00:39:05.320 people

00:39:05.660 that

00:39:05.880 I

00:39:06.000 worked

00:39:06.200 with

00:39:06.360 clinically

00:39:06.700 I

00:39:07.500 gave

00:39:07.680 you

00:39:07.760 those

00:39:07.940 numbers

00:39:08.340 but

00:39:08.880 let

00:39:09.180 me

00:39:09.320 show

00:39:10.700 you

00:39:10.880 how

00:39:11.360 it

00:39:11.520 works

00:39:11.960 400

00:39:13.100 micrograms

00:39:14.000 is

00:39:14.300 an

00:39:14.820 amazing

00:39:15.240 amount

00:39:15.680 of

00:39:16.140 psychedelic

00:39:16.780 however

00:39:18.480 when

00:39:20.000 you

00:39:20.180 have

00:39:20.420 an

00:39:20.560 alcoholic

00:39:21.140 you

00:39:22.960 give

00:39:23.180 them

00:39:23.380 400

00:39:23.860 micrograms

00:39:24.780 and

00:39:24.940 an

00:39:25.220 hour

00:39:25.400 and

00:39:25.520 a

00:39:25.580 half

00:39:25.780 later

00:39:26.100 they're

00:39:26.380 walking

00:39:26.720 around

00:39:27.120 the

00:39:27.300 room

00:39:27.540 and

00:39:27.660 saying

00:39:27.960 man

00:39:28.680 something's

00:39:29.040 going

00:39:29.220 on

00:39:29.440 but

00:39:29.560 I

00:39:29.680 don't

00:39:29.820 feel

00:39:30.020 comfortable

00:39:30.460 and

00:39:30.780 what

00:39:31.400 are

00:39:31.480 you

00:39:31.600 guys

00:39:31.880 doing

00:39:32.120 anyway

00:39:32.460 anyone

00:39:33.800 else

00:39:34.180 at

00:39:34.440 that

00:39:34.620 point

00:39:34.920 is

00:39:35.200 on

00:39:35.600 the

00:39:35.760 couch

00:39:36.120 voluntarily

00:39:36.900 asking

00:39:37.760 for

00:39:38.120 headphones

00:39:38.560 and

00:39:39.520 a

00:39:39.900 blindfold

00:39:40.340 because

00:39:40.920 the

00:39:41.540 input

00:39:42.080 is

00:39:42.320 so

00:39:42.500 overwhelming

00:39:42.980 well

00:39:44.260 when

00:39:44.540 you

00:39:44.800 add

00:39:46.140 to

00:39:46.500 the

00:39:46.740 alcoholics

00:39:47.620 cocktail

00:39:48.500 another

00:39:49.020 400

00:39:49.480 micrograms

00:39:50.320 so

00:39:50.420 they're

00:39:50.540 now

00:39:51.140 800

00:39:51.560 micrograms

00:39:52.260 which

00:39:52.400 I

00:39:52.500 don't

00:39:52.640 recommend

00:39:52.960 to

00:39:53.120 anybody

00:39:53.500 they

00:39:54.640 settle

00:39:55.000 down

00:39:55.320 and

00:39:56.360 again

00:39:56.740 behave

00:39:58.000 exactly

00:39:58.620 the way

00:39:59.040 everyone

00:39:59.400 else

00:39:59.660 does

00:39:59.980 on a

00:40:00.280 much

00:40:00.440 lower

00:40:00.680 dose

00:40:01.060 and

00:40:02.900 I

00:40:03.000 looked

00:40:03.220 at that

00:40:03.520 for a

00:40:03.780 long

00:40:03.960 time

00:40:04.280 I

00:40:04.400 actually

00:40:04.620 studied

00:40:05.480 alcoholism

00:40:06.780 and

00:40:07.060 why

00:40:07.580 most

00:40:07.900 treatments

00:40:08.220 don't

00:40:08.500 work

00:40:08.780 and

00:40:10.480 what

00:40:10.620 I

00:40:10.760 realized

00:40:11.200 with

00:40:11.440 psychedelics

00:40:12.140 is

00:40:12.320 alcoholics

00:40:13.120 have

00:40:13.440 learned

00:40:14.180 and

00:40:14.500 have

00:40:14.720 a

00:40:14.900 physiology

00:40:15.380 that

00:40:15.840 cooperates

00:40:16.620 to

00:40:17.420 handle

00:40:18.080 very

00:40:19.000 large

00:40:19.420 doses

00:40:19.840 of

00:40:20.120 substances

00:40:20.680 that

00:40:21.660 distort

00:40:22.060 consciousness

00:40:22.640 so

00:40:23.620 in a

00:40:24.240 sense

00:40:24.460 their

00:40:24.720 ability

00:40:25.120 to

00:40:25.340 hold

00:40:25.660 on

00:40:26.060 and

00:40:26.340 to 0.99

00:40:26.600 hang

00:40:27.200 on

00:40:27.420 to

00:40:27.520 their

00:40:27.680 defenses

00:40:28.200 is

00:40:29.120 far

00:40:29.460 more

00:40:29.740 developed

00:40:30.320 than

00:40:31.140 for

00:40:31.320 the

00:40:31.440 rest

00:40:31.640 of

00:40:31.780 us

00:40:32.020 so

00:40:33.720 so

00:40:33.740 I

00:40:34.000 I'm

00:40:34.180 dancing

00:40:34.940 around

00:40:35.360 the

00:40:35.560 dosage

00:40:35.980 question

00:40:36.500 because

00:40:37.120 it's

00:40:38.100 not

00:40:38.260 quite

00:40:38.640 the

00:40:38.840 appropriate

00:40:39.260 question

00:40:39.780 the

00:40:39.940 appropriate

00:40:40.360 question

00:40:40.880 is

00:40:41.080 what

00:40:41.260 is

00:40:41.420 the

00:40:41.580 correct

00:40:41.940 amount

00:40:42.300 for

00:40:42.520 this

00:40:42.780 person

00:40:43.180 on

00:40:43.440 this

00:40:43.700 day

00:40:44.060 for

00:40:44.780 this

00:40:45.120 intention

00:40:45.640 and

00:40:47.620 that

00:40:47.760 of

00:40:47.920 course

00:40:48.120 is

00:40:48.300 an

00:40:48.420 individual

00:40:48.860 question

00:40:49.400 is

00:40:50.300 there

00:40:50.400 anything

00:40:50.760 in

00:40:51.780 your

00:40:51.920 mind

00:40:52.140 that

00:40:52.360 significantly

00:40:53.540 differentiates

00:40:55.080 the

00:40:55.500 experience

00:40:56.900 on

00:40:57.800 a high

00:40:58.380 dose

00:40:58.620 of

00:40:58.760 LSD

00:40:59.240 versus

00:41:00.500 a high

00:41:00.900 dose

00:41:01.160 of

00:41:01.500 psilocybin

00:41:02.200 that is

00:41:03.680 mushrooms

00:41:04.080 in most

00:41:04.740 cases

00:41:05.060 well

00:41:06.220 the

00:41:07.080 feeling

00:41:07.580 in

00:41:07.980 the

00:41:08.400 underground

00:41:09.680 who takes

00:41:10.280 a lot

00:41:10.540 more drugs

00:41:11.000 than I

00:41:11.320 do

00:41:11.540 is

00:41:12.880 that

00:41:13.120 psilocybin

00:41:13.880 is a

00:41:14.340 kinder

00:41:14.940 experience

00:41:15.460 it's a

00:41:15.940 more

00:41:16.200 emotionally

00:41:16.880 gentle

00:41:17.620 experience

00:41:18.420 and

00:41:19.640 that's

00:41:19.960 partly

00:41:20.360 it is

00:41:21.240 said

00:41:21.480 because

00:41:21.860 there is

00:41:22.220 a plant

00:41:22.620 spirit

00:41:23.080 behind

00:41:23.560 it

00:41:23.940 LSD

00:41:25.240 is

00:41:25.520 considered

00:41:26.020 a little

00:41:26.820 colder

00:41:27.360 a little

00:41:27.900 more

00:41:28.280 powerful

00:41:29.720 it doesn't

00:41:31.620 let you

00:41:32.000 off

00:41:32.300 easy

00:41:32.640 and I

00:41:34.740 know

00:41:34.920 these are

00:41:35.340 all

00:41:35.700 very vague

00:41:36.460 terms

00:41:36.900 unless you

00:41:37.560 know what

00:41:37.780 I'm

00:41:37.920 talking

00:41:38.280 about

00:41:38.700 my

00:41:40.020 research

00:41:40.460 associate

00:41:41.040 doctors

00:41:41.740 fire

00:41:42.060 corb

00:41:42.640 at one

00:41:42.940 point

00:41:43.340 set up

00:41:44.580 a little

00:41:44.860 bot

00:41:45.260 and it

00:41:45.940 asked the

00:41:46.460 little

00:41:46.640 bot

00:41:46.940 to say

00:41:47.460 here's

00:41:48.000 a hundred

00:41:48.780 reports

00:41:49.460 from

00:41:49.760 erowid

00:41:50.240 about

00:41:50.560 psilocybin

00:41:51.220 experiences

00:41:51.920 here are

00:41:52.780 a hundred

00:41:53.040 reports

00:41:53.660 of LSD

00:41:54.280 experiences

00:41:55.140 can you

00:41:56.720 this little

00:41:57.440 learning bot

00:41:58.200 distinguish

00:41:58.960 the two

00:41:59.760 if you

00:42:00.940 can't be

00:42:02.060 told which

00:42:02.560 substance

00:42:02.940 it is

00:42:03.260 so it

00:42:03.460 kind of

00:42:04.120 blinded

00:42:04.920 artificial

00:42:05.740 intelligence

00:42:06.420 and the

00:42:08.380 AI

00:42:08.860 robot

00:42:09.560 said no

00:42:10.160 I actually

00:42:10.680 can't tell

00:42:11.220 the difference

00:42:11.800 between

00:42:12.200 those

00:42:12.520 experiences

00:42:13.220 there's

00:42:14.660 another

00:42:15.080 group

00:42:15.500 of people

00:42:16.060 who are

00:42:17.120 saying

00:42:17.460 the difference

00:42:18.120 between a

00:42:18.640 synthetic

00:42:19.100 psilocybin

00:42:19.940 and a

00:42:20.380 mushroom

00:42:20.800 is also

00:42:22.560 a great

00:42:22.920 difference

00:42:23.420 and

00:42:24.360 that is

00:42:26.260 also not

00:42:27.020 yet

00:42:27.360 particularly

00:42:28.160 we don't

00:42:29.180 know quite

00:42:29.540 what that

00:42:29.940 means

00:42:30.240 but it's

00:42:30.680 probably

00:42:31.160 true

00:42:31.640 since

00:42:32.080 a mushroom

00:42:33.360 has a

00:42:33.820 whole

00:42:33.980 other set

00:42:34.620 of alkaloids

00:42:35.460 in it

00:42:35.800 so it

00:42:36.340 should have

00:42:36.720 a slightly

00:42:37.060 different

00:42:37.400 effect

00:42:37.780 than just

00:42:38.720 the

00:42:38.960 psilocybin

00:42:39.500 molecule

00:42:39.980 yeah

00:42:41.280 but one

00:42:41.840 obvious

00:42:42.620 difference

00:42:42.940 is just

00:42:43.540 the time

00:42:44.040 course

00:42:44.420 of the

00:42:44.840 trip

00:42:45.380 an LSD

00:42:46.060 trip

00:42:46.400 lasts

00:42:46.920 about

00:42:47.600 twice

00:42:47.960 as long

00:42:48.360 as a

00:42:48.580 mushroom

00:42:48.800 trip

00:42:49.100 that's

00:42:50.160 important

00:42:50.740 because

00:42:51.740 that's

00:42:52.040 one of

00:42:52.320 the reasons

00:42:52.780 that the

00:42:53.380 research

00:42:53.700 has gone

00:42:54.000 the way

00:42:54.200 it has

00:42:54.520 one of the

00:42:55.800 questions

00:42:56.160 is

00:42:56.520 with the

00:42:57.720 psychedelic

00:42:58.240 renaissance

00:42:58.620 why

00:42:59.340 are most

00:43:00.520 of these

00:43:00.820 studies

00:43:01.160 psilocybin

00:43:01.780 why not

00:43:03.060 LSD

00:43:03.540 because

00:43:04.080 with LSD

00:43:04.760 we have

00:43:05.220 a couple

00:43:05.680 of thousand

00:43:06.260 research

00:43:06.840 papers

00:43:07.360 you know

00:43:08.500 to start

00:43:08.960 with

00:43:09.980 and I

00:43:10.640 asked

00:43:10.980 one of

00:43:11.300 the

00:43:11.480 senior

00:43:11.820 researchers

00:43:12.320 and this

00:43:14.140 comes on

00:43:15.720 as a little 0.93

00:43:16.460 ridiculous 0.88

00:43:17.100 but it's 0.98

00:43:17.740 actually quite

00:43:18.380 subtle and

00:43:18.980 sensible

00:43:19.360 he said

00:43:20.580 there are

00:43:20.840 several

00:43:21.300 reasons

00:43:21.760 one is

00:43:23.820 psilocybin

00:43:24.840 will give

00:43:25.800 the same

00:43:26.240 experience

00:43:26.840 but in a

00:43:27.340 shorter amount

00:43:27.880 of time

00:43:28.340 four to six

00:43:29.160 hours

00:43:29.540 LSD

00:43:31.400 eight to

00:43:31.840 twelve

00:43:32.140 if you're

00:43:32.840 working with

00:43:33.460 someone

00:43:33.840 eight to

00:43:34.640 twelve

00:43:34.920 hours

00:43:35.380 in a research

00:43:36.380 setting

00:43:36.780 that's

00:43:37.160 two

00:43:37.480 shifts

00:43:37.980 of

00:43:38.220 personnel

00:43:38.620 that

00:43:39.800 doubles

00:43:40.360 your

00:43:40.760 personnel

00:43:41.180 cost

00:43:41.660 so

00:43:42.700 there's

00:43:43.020 a

00:43:43.300 motive

00:43:44.760 I said

00:43:46.480 there's

00:43:46.820 two

00:43:47.000 things

00:43:47.300 about

00:43:47.580 psilocybin

00:43:48.240 one is

00:43:49.900 it's not

00:43:50.400 called

00:43:50.840 LSD

00:43:51.420 meaning

00:43:52.840 it doesn't

00:43:53.440 there's not

00:43:53.940 a lot

00:43:54.140 of press

00:43:54.500 about it

00:43:54.880 not a lot

00:43:55.180 of research

00:43:55.560 not a lot

00:43:55.980 of

00:43:56.160 not a lot

00:43:57.620 of negative

00:43:58.000 press

00:43:58.460 from the

00:43:59.120 60s

00:43:59.900 yeah

00:44:00.200 the other

00:44:01.780 and this

00:44:02.240 is my

00:44:02.560 favorite

00:44:02.940 is

00:44:03.120 psilocybin

00:44:03.700 is hard

00:44:04.040 to spell

00:44:04.540 what they're

00:44:05.740 saying is

00:44:06.780 that just

00:44:07.780 because it's

00:44:08.540 more

00:44:08.840 sounds more

00:44:09.540 like a

00:44:09.940 scientific

00:44:10.420 term

00:44:11.120 people are

00:44:12.460 more comfortable

00:44:13.060 with it

00:44:14.000 which makes me

00:44:15.960 wonder why

00:44:16.460 there isn't

00:44:16.920 more research

00:44:17.580 on DMT

00:44:18.400 because that's

00:44:19.360 that's over

00:44:19.940 in 15 minutes

00:44:20.780 and dimethyltryptamine

00:44:22.560 is also hard

00:44:23.320 to spell

00:44:23.700 DMT is not

00:44:25.500 on DMT

00:44:28.120 have you

00:44:28.560 do you have

00:44:28.920 experience

00:44:29.540 with

00:44:30.580 pure DMT

00:44:32.220 as opposed

00:44:32.620 to

00:44:32.940 DMT

00:44:34.000 is the

00:44:34.340 one of the

00:44:34.800 active ingredients

00:44:36.100 in ayahuasca

00:44:36.860 as well

00:44:37.440 but

00:44:37.660 that's a

00:44:39.020 very different

00:44:39.600 experience

00:44:40.120 apparently

00:44:40.480 do you have

00:44:41.780 the smokable

00:44:43.280 very short

00:44:44.020 acting experience

00:44:44.820 or the injectable

00:44:45.680 very short

00:44:46.240 acting experience

00:44:46.920 although I may

00:44:48.240 now lose

00:44:48.820 at least

00:44:49.200 half of your

00:44:49.720 audience

00:44:50.060 I have

00:44:50.580 not a

00:44:51.280 great

00:44:51.540 many

00:44:52.100 experiences

00:44:52.920 and I

00:44:54.060 don't

00:44:54.620 seek out

00:44:55.340 new substances

00:44:56.340 to experience

00:44:57.520 it's kind of

00:44:58.880 like people

00:44:59.440 who like

00:44:59.900 wine

00:45:00.340 some people

00:45:01.320 like wine

00:45:01.820 to drink

00:45:02.240 some people

00:45:02.780 like wine

00:45:03.580 to find

00:45:04.780 interesting

00:45:05.540 difficult

00:45:06.040 rare

00:45:06.640 amazing

00:45:07.680 wines

00:45:08.260 the question

00:45:09.880 always for me

00:45:10.760 is what is

00:45:11.520 the take home

00:45:12.280 value

00:45:12.840 now

00:45:14.640 that's a little

00:45:15.820 bit as if

00:45:16.440 someone

00:45:17.100 I say

00:45:17.560 well you went

00:45:18.120 to a concert

00:45:18.780 what's the

00:45:19.200 take home

00:45:19.540 value

00:45:19.880 they said

00:45:20.240 don't be 0.99

00:45:20.640 ridiculous 1.00

00:45:21.160 I went to 0.99

00:45:21.580 the concert

00:45:22.100 for the

00:45:23.060 being there

00:45:24.300 at the

00:45:24.760 time

00:45:25.160 well I

00:45:26.800 have nothing

00:45:27.220 nothing wrong

00:45:28.160 with that

00:45:28.460 and of course

00:45:28.960 do the same

00:45:29.500 thing

00:45:29.900 but because

00:45:31.660 of my

00:45:32.160 background

00:45:32.740 I probably

00:45:33.840 take psychedelics

00:45:34.840 more seriously

00:45:35.700 than most

00:45:36.240 people

00:45:36.620 so the

00:45:38.540 question

00:45:39.060 of all

00:45:41.120 these different

00:45:41.700 substances

00:45:42.300 and all

00:45:42.780 these different

00:45:43.320 forms

00:45:43.920 doesn't

00:45:45.680 it doesn't

00:45:46.640 resonate

00:45:47.000 and I

00:45:47.880 remember

00:45:48.220 when I

00:45:49.140 was sending

00:45:50.320 out little

00:45:50.760 I gave a

00:45:51.300 talk at

00:45:51.680 Santa Cruz

00:45:52.280 UC Santa

00:45:53.240 Cruz

00:45:53.480 some years

00:45:53.900 ago

00:45:54.140 and I

00:45:54.460 asked each

00:45:55.100 of the

00:45:55.280 people there

00:45:55.680 to fill

00:45:56.040 out a

00:45:56.280 little

00:45:56.400 form

00:45:56.780 what's

00:45:58.400 your best

00:45:58.760 trip

00:45:59.000 what's

00:45:59.260 your worst

00:45:59.620 trip

00:45:59.880 why did

00:46:00.340 you come

00:46:00.680 here tonight

00:46:01.320 and what

00:46:02.480 have you

00:46:02.760 used

00:46:03.200 and these

00:46:04.400 were all

00:46:04.820 undergraduates

00:46:05.640 and there

00:46:07.260 was one

00:46:07.720 young man

00:46:08.300 who had

00:46:08.720 tried 24

00:46:09.980 different

00:46:11.160 psychedelic

00:46:12.080 substances

00:46:12.800 and I

00:46:14.420 thought

00:46:14.740 he probably

00:46:16.440 doesn't get

00:46:17.120 much out

00:46:17.640 of it

00:46:18.000 he's a

00:46:19.060 collector

00:46:19.620 of having

00:46:22.340 done

00:46:22.880 experiences

00:46:23.700 and that's

00:46:25.120 very different

00:46:25.820 the other

00:46:27.440 side of that

00:46:28.060 the other

00:46:28.320 way of

00:46:28.620 arguing

00:46:29.060 that is

00:46:29.600 the notion

00:46:30.720 is

00:46:31.160 and this

00:46:31.440 is I

00:46:31.740 think

00:46:31.880 from

00:46:32.140 Jean-Paul

00:46:32.720 Sartre

00:46:33.220 or Camus

00:46:34.440 which is

00:46:35.280 when you

00:46:35.940 ask God

00:46:36.540 a question

00:46:37.200 and he

00:46:38.700 answers it

00:46:39.460 you hang

00:46:40.080 up the

00:46:40.400 phone

00:46:40.660 so for a

00:46:43.800 lot of

00:46:44.100 people

00:46:44.360 they say

00:46:45.760 well I

00:46:46.360 learned what

00:46:47.600 psychedelics

00:46:48.340 had to teach

00:46:49.340 me

00:46:49.620 and my

00:46:51.500 interest then

00:46:52.100 diminished

00:46:52.580 yeah

00:46:54.260 yeah

00:46:54.300 yeah

00:46:55.120 well that's

00:46:56.140 certainly

00:46:57.820 resonates with

00:46:58.480 me

00:46:58.660 I mean I

00:46:59.120 certainly

00:46:59.520 felt that

00:47:00.020 for 25

00:47:00.840 years

00:47:01.260 and it's

00:47:02.220 not something

00:47:02.940 that I

00:47:03.340 imagine doing

00:47:04.800 with any

00:47:05.440 frequency

00:47:05.860 at high

00:47:07.020 doses

00:47:07.340 certainly

00:47:08.000 but

00:47:08.920 I've never

00:47:10.080 taken ayahuasca

00:47:10.880 I've never

00:47:11.300 smoked DMT

00:47:12.420 and I just

00:47:13.160 hearing about

00:47:14.160 the

00:47:14.580 phenomenology

00:47:16.120 of those

00:47:16.420 experiences

00:47:16.900 they sound

00:47:18.000 like they

00:47:19.280 are certainly

00:47:20.560 opening different

00:47:21.960 doors in

00:47:22.920 the mansion

00:47:23.780 of the

00:47:24.860 mind

00:47:25.240 and I'm

00:47:25.900 I do feel

00:47:27.160 like I

00:47:28.240 can attest

00:47:28.840 to a

00:47:29.920 somewhat

00:47:30.180 significant

00:47:30.700 difference

00:47:31.100 between

00:47:31.700 psilocybin

00:47:32.880 and LSD

00:47:33.600 at higher

00:47:34.800 doses

00:47:35.200 what you

00:47:36.240 said about

00:47:36.820 the difference

00:47:37.700 does resonate

00:47:39.160 with me

00:47:39.520 there's always

00:47:39.840 LSD has a

00:47:41.980 kind of metallic

00:47:43.000 quality to it

00:47:44.580 compared to

00:47:45.160 psilocybin

00:47:45.880 that not to

00:47:46.960 say that it's

00:47:47.420 bad but

00:47:48.000 it's it

00:47:49.380 is different

00:47:49.900 and then of

00:47:51.100 course there's

00:47:51.600 the there's

00:47:52.560 MDMA

00:47:53.120 ecstasy which

00:47:54.140 is not

00:47:54.760 classically a

00:47:55.440 psychedelic

00:47:56.040 which in

00:47:57.380 terms of

00:47:57.680 take-home

00:47:58.140 value you

00:47:59.560 know has

00:47:59.840 offered a

00:48:00.300 tremendous

00:48:00.640 amount to

00:48:01.220 people

00:48:01.500 where do

00:48:02.460 you put

00:48:02.940 MDMA in

00:48:04.020 this

00:48:04.280 conversation

00:48:05.060 well the

00:48:06.140 reason MDMA

00:48:07.100 there are two

00:48:08.220 reasons MDMA

00:48:08.860 isn't a

00:48:09.240 psychedelic one

00:48:09.960 is biochemical

00:48:10.760 which is

00:48:11.280 the other is

00:48:12.880 that you do

00:48:13.400 not go beyond

00:48:14.200 yourself your

00:48:15.320 psyche

00:48:15.660 without the

00:48:17.160 experience

00:48:18.260 only you're

00:48:19.640 you in an

00:48:20.200 incredibly

00:48:20.720 inner safe

00:48:21.440 place where

00:48:22.480 all the parts

00:48:23.120 of you that 0.99

00:48:23.660 are awful 0.78

00:48:24.320 to consider

00:48:25.080 or terrible

00:48:26.320 events or

00:48:27.160 traumas or

00:48:29.080 worse you

00:48:30.920 can objectively

00:48:32.480 look at and

00:48:34.060 move them from

00:48:35.020 the part of

00:48:35.660 your brain that

00:48:36.220 holds them as

00:48:36.940 terrible trauma

00:48:38.240 and disturbs or

00:48:39.980 destroys your 0.83

00:48:40.620 life and

00:48:41.820 puts them into

00:48:43.080 conventional

00:48:44.080 memory where

00:48:45.300 you can

00:48:45.780 remember that

00:48:46.540 you did

00:48:46.900 terrible things

00:48:47.720 but it

00:48:48.060 doesn't

00:48:48.440 dominate your

00:48:49.180 presence so

00:48:50.620 it's a

00:48:51.060 totally different

00:48:51.920 set of

00:48:52.440 experiences and

00:48:54.460 however the

00:48:56.860 way it's

00:48:57.560 given is

00:48:58.360 exactly the

00:48:59.200 way we

00:48:59.640 developed it

00:49:00.400 in the

00:49:00.760 60s with 0.53

00:49:02.000 the comfortable

00:49:03.260 room and the

00:49:04.280 music and the

00:49:05.180 headphones and

00:49:06.600 the male and

00:49:07.840 female guide 0.93

00:49:08.820 all of which

00:49:11.100 are to make

00:49:11.860 it easier for

00:49:13.060 people to look

00:49:14.140 at traumatic

00:49:15.500 experience if

00:49:17.240 you give the

00:49:18.020 same person a

00:49:20.880 very very high

00:49:21.700 dose of lsd

00:49:22.520 they will they

00:49:23.640 will pass right

00:49:24.560 through the

00:49:25.300 trauma area and

00:49:26.960 have perhaps

00:49:27.780 again one of

00:49:28.700 these transcendent

00:49:29.520 experiences which

00:49:30.780 may or may not

00:49:31.980 affect the

00:49:33.420 trauma we

00:49:34.360 haven't really

00:49:34.820 done that kind

00:49:35.540 of research so

00:49:37.020 mdma in a

00:49:38.000 sense is

00:49:38.440 psychologically

00:49:39.140 less threatening

00:49:40.660 because you

00:49:41.300 don't go beyond

00:49:42.420 your own

00:49:43.200 identity and

00:49:44.460 that's a real

00:49:45.560 difference

00:49:46.060 actually this

00:49:47.080 brings up an

00:49:47.580 interesting point

00:49:48.660 about which there

00:49:50.120 may be research

00:49:50.880 that I'm

00:49:51.340 unfamiliar with but

00:49:52.280 just based on my

00:49:53.800 own experience

00:49:54.520 it's often felt to

00:49:56.160 me that not

00:49:57.860 taking enough of

00:49:59.780 a psychedelic is

00:50:01.380 as much of a

00:50:03.700 risk factor in

00:50:05.280 determining having

00:50:06.160 a bad trip

00:50:07.640 we'll talk about

00:50:08.820 good and bad

00:50:09.300 trips next but

00:50:11.160 you know here

00:50:13.100 we're talking about

00:50:13.640 dosage not

00:50:15.260 taking enough not

00:50:16.240 not achieving you

00:50:17.480 know escape

00:50:17.960 velocity of some

00:50:19.020 kind can doom

00:50:20.980 you to an

00:50:22.520 unpleasant experience

00:50:23.580 as much as

00:50:25.060 taking too much

00:50:26.860 if taking too

00:50:27.740 much is in fact a

00:50:28.740 liability I mean

00:50:29.520 there's I've had

00:50:30.480 trips where it's

00:50:31.140 felt like I took

00:50:32.760 just enough to

00:50:34.580 have in my

00:50:35.940 ordinary mental

00:50:37.400 reality good and

00:50:39.000 scrambled or I

00:50:40.480 took just enough

00:50:41.380 to be given an

00:50:43.420 unusual mental

00:50:45.520 energy with which

00:50:46.960 to fixate on my

00:50:48.680 psychological

00:50:49.340 problems but not

00:50:51.040 given enough to

00:50:52.060 fly clear of them

00:50:54.160 for any span of

00:50:55.400 time and so the

00:50:56.900 net result was

00:50:57.820 there was a

00:50:58.280 something considerably

00:50:59.800 more than a

00:51:00.320 micro dose that

00:51:02.100 potentiated my

00:51:04.100 capacity for

00:51:04.840 unhappiness and

00:51:06.720 I believe I

00:51:07.920 believe I've

00:51:08.380 noticed this from

00:51:10.020 both sides because

00:51:11.620 you know I've had

00:51:13.020 trips where you

00:51:13.880 know I've gone

00:51:15.040 you know very far

00:51:16.520 out well beyond

00:51:17.960 any personal

00:51:18.860 reference point to

00:51:19.900 my life and my

00:51:20.820 psychology and then

00:51:22.600 it's only upon

00:51:23.360 re-entry you know

00:51:25.020 as I'm coming

00:51:25.560 down that you

00:51:26.940 begin to punch

00:51:28.500 into the atmosphere

00:51:29.340 of the familiar

00:51:30.320 and begin thinking

00:51:31.940 about your life

00:51:32.760 is it that strata

00:51:34.800 of the mind that

00:51:35.920 there's a sort of

00:51:37.560 a new capacity

00:51:38.600 for chaos and

00:51:39.980 complication and

00:51:40.900 neurosis

00:51:42.080 you're kind of a

00:51:44.060 commercial for

00:51:45.420 guides at this

00:51:46.560 point yeah look

00:51:48.080 at that particular

00:51:49.320 event that happens

00:51:50.980 in a high dose

00:51:51.720 which is you have

00:51:53.540 found that you

00:51:54.560 are immortal or

00:51:56.760 that you are one

00:51:57.780 with whatever your

00:51:59.020 religious tradition

00:51:59.840 teaches you is the

00:52:00.760 highest or you've

00:52:02.480 gone past that

00:52:03.700 into feeling that

00:52:06.700 everything is

00:52:08.480 interconnected and

00:52:09.420 it's all the same

00:52:10.120 stuff and then you

00:52:11.660 come down and you

00:52:12.620 find that there you

00:52:13.860 are there you are a

00:52:15.480 kind of middle-aged

00:52:16.720 physician in a

00:52:18.880 difficult marriage and

00:52:20.180 one of your kids is

00:52:21.380 has some kind of

00:52:22.820 illness and you have

00:52:23.900 economic problems and

00:52:25.860 you love kite surfing

00:52:27.440 that person can

00:52:30.900 with a little bit

00:52:32.180 right into the heart

00:52:35.480 of their issues

00:52:36.540 coming down than

00:52:37.720 they could coming

00:52:38.740 up and one of the

00:52:41.520 methods that we use

00:52:42.780 when we're doing this

00:52:43.620 clinical work this

00:52:44.260 was with a couple of

00:52:44.860 hundred people is we

00:52:46.700 ask them to bring in 0.78

00:52:47.660 important photographs

00:52:48.780 again notice this is

00:52:49.820 visual we also ask

00:52:51.760 them to have a list of

00:52:52.580 questions and I'll

00:52:53.400 mention that but we

00:52:54.980 ask them to bring in 0.78

00:52:55.660 important photographs

00:52:56.660 and this usually

00:52:57.280 would be of important

00:52:58.480 human beings in their

00:52:59.320 lives and we would

00:53:01.920 say would you like to

00:53:02.680 look at your

00:53:03.160 photographs and they

00:53:04.280 would look at us like

00:53:05.880 what's a photograph and

00:53:07.240 who are you but then

00:53:09.300 you hand them a

00:53:10.080 photograph and say it's

00:53:11.540 their it's their spouse

00:53:14.300 now again these are

00:53:16.760 trained guides and what

00:53:18.300 do they do they do

00:53:19.600 nothing the person

00:53:22.460 looks at this

00:53:23.380 photograph and they

00:53:24.200 may look at it for a

00:53:25.520 minute and put it

00:53:26.200 aside they may look at

00:53:27.380 it for 45 minutes and

00:53:30.100 then they say okay I'd

00:53:31.420 like another photograph

00:53:32.200 and you don't know

00:53:34.120 what's going on but when

00:53:35.400 they write a report a few

00:53:36.560 weeks later you find out

00:53:37.820 they spent a huge amount

00:53:39.140 of time therapeutically

00:53:41.780 reworking a lot of their

00:53:44.120 issues around that

00:53:45.460 particular person so it's a

00:53:48.760 method of depth

00:53:50.380 psychological work

00:53:52.060 without form without

00:53:54.600 vocabulary and without

00:53:56.080 theory

00:53:56.620 that was we also gave

00:54:00.740 them a a rose bud

00:54:02.680 a rose just starting to

00:54:04.540 open and almost every

00:54:06.520 religious tradition that

00:54:07.620 had access to roses

00:54:08.820 makes them an important

00:54:10.880 either symbol or active

00:54:12.900 force and we found

00:54:15.020 again that people would

00:54:16.740 have an experience of

00:54:18.940 working with a living

00:54:20.820 expanding beautiful

00:54:23.240 piece of nature that

00:54:26.260 they felt was important

00:54:27.760 and again people would

00:54:28.900 take a long time just

00:54:31.160 looking into that rose

00:54:32.160 indicating how it opened

00:54:33.160 and they went inside it

00:54:34.480 and how they became a

00:54:36.080 rose and how that that 0.91

00:54:38.080 made sense to them in

00:54:39.580 their usual life so as

00:54:42.600 as one comes down but

00:54:44.220 one is coming down aware

00:54:46.240 that one is more than

00:54:47.720 one's identity and when

00:54:49.660 you had those high

00:54:50.600 experiences Sam the

00:54:52.400 ones as you said coming

00:54:53.720 back into being you

00:54:55.300 it's always a little

00:54:56.660 puzzling like I'm part

00:54:59.340 of everything there is

00:55:00.380 why did I come back into

00:55:01.740 a Sam Harris of all

00:55:03.400 people that's where you

00:55:05.580 then get an opportunity

00:55:07.320 to say probably I came

00:55:09.000 back into the Sam 0.74

00:55:09.940 Harris to clean him up a

00:55:12.440 little bit so that he

00:55:13.940 would get more benefit

00:55:15.080 out of being in this

00:55:15.980 lifetime so let's talk

00:55:19.140 about microdosing which

00:55:20.760 superficially seems like

00:55:24.160 a similar project because

00:55:26.080 we again we're talking

00:55:27.500 about taking LSD or

00:55:30.100 psilocybin generally but

00:55:32.560 the dosage being dialed

00:55:36.500 down as much as you're

00:55:37.980 about to describe really

00:55:39.780 does change things what

00:55:42.820 constitutes a microdose and

00:55:44.400 and what are people

00:55:46.240 microdosing well I have

00:55:49.320 to make this super clear

00:55:50.640 imagine that microdoses

00:55:52.700 have no psychedelic

00:55:54.540 effect so they are not a

00:55:56.620 little bitty high maybe

00:55:59.600 they're the difference

00:56:00.460 between an M dial you're

00:56:01.520 still you know there's

00:56:02.660 still radio frequencies but

00:56:03.860 the microdose is one

00:56:04.900 tenths to one twentieth of

00:56:06.320 what is called a

00:56:06.900 recreational dose with LSD

00:56:09.060 for the original work I did

00:56:12.660 some years ago we it was

00:56:14.840 ten micrograms that seemed

00:56:16.160 to be an appropriate

00:56:17.500 amount for people to have

00:56:20.260 the experiences that I'll

00:56:22.380 talk about a little bit

00:56:23.340 more without having to

00:56:26.940 stop or disturb their life

00:56:29.360 they had their normal day

00:56:31.080 normal activities normal

00:56:33.400 work normal driving normal

00:56:36.260 time with their family etc

00:56:39.560 the dose for mushrooms

00:56:43.540 was about was then about

00:56:46.800 0.2 grams to 0.5 grams

00:56:49.420 now when I say the doses

00:56:52.340 again what we found after you

00:56:55.260 you get a few hundred reports

00:56:57.120 is people say gee 10

00:56:59.900 micrograms was too much I'm

00:57:01.900 taking seven 0.2 was too

00:57:07.000 much I'm taking one tenth of a

00:57:09.140 gram

00:57:09.560 what we found is that

00:57:10.780 people would correct the

00:57:12.400 dose so to speak for their

00:57:13.660 own understanding and

00:57:15.320 experience and we also found

00:57:17.760 in terms of taking it how

00:57:19.880 often which is a huge

00:57:21.400 difference between

00:57:22.280 psychedelics and microdosing

00:57:23.540 microdosing is done

00:57:25.580 repeatedly people found that

00:57:28.160 after taking it one day on

00:57:30.040 and two days off over a full

00:57:31.700 month that's about ten times

00:57:33.760 over a month most people

00:57:36.600 ended up taking it less often

00:57:39.560 so it looked like it was it was

00:57:41.960 not addictive just as all other

00:57:43.500 psychedelics but whatever value

00:57:46.020 it had people seem to to gain

00:57:49.020 basic benefits within the first

00:57:51.400 month and then allow it to

00:57:53.840 continue at its own pace now what

00:57:56.080 are basic benefits okay it's very

00:57:58.940 hard to make this easy to understand

00:58:02.940 but

00:58:03.940 Ailet Waldman did a book called a

00:58:06.560 really good day and it's about her

00:58:08.660 month of microdosing and the best

00:58:11.280 definition of microdosing that I've

00:58:13.080 come across again from one of our

00:58:14.700 people

00:58:15.040 is I did better work than I usually

00:58:21.000 do I made a few more cold calls that

00:58:23.500 were successful I had a few ideas in

00:58:26.640 the meeting that I usually have no

00:58:28.320 ideas when I went to the gym I did

00:58:31.980 one more set of reps and I enjoyed

00:58:35.660 being with my family more than

00:58:37.500 usual and I forgot that I'd taken a

00:58:39.840 microdose one never says at the end of

00:58:44.540 a high-dose session I forgot I took a

00:58:46.600 psychedelic okay well actually that's

00:58:49.080 not quite true if if it's a

00:58:50.640 sufficiently high dose you can

00:58:52.620 completely forget you've taken a

00:58:54.020 psychedelic but then you eventually

00:58:55.280 remember as reality and you've taken

00:58:59.120 a sufficiently high dose you forget

00:59:00.580 that you're a human being on this

00:59:02.940 planet yeah because when you come

00:59:05.960 down you're very surprised to find

00:59:07.500 out that that's true and hopefully

00:59:09.080 you're not attempting any reps at the

00:59:10.740 gym no let alone driving to it oh so 0.94

00:59:15.720 a microdose seems to improve the

00:59:19.720 overall function of the organism and I'm

00:59:23.760 being kind of vague and scientificy

00:59:26.160 because there are so many people who've

00:59:30.160 reported different benefits or different

00:59:32.900 improvements in using microdosing that

00:59:36.240 it's very hard to categorize and we can

00:59:39.360 look at some of the details of that as

00:59:42.560 much as you wish yeah I guess so let me

00:59:45.480 just give you some anecdotal experience

00:59:47.080 here and and then get your reaction so I

00:59:50.320 only have experience microdosing LSD and

00:59:53.980 so I guess first question is is there any

00:59:58.160 reason to differentiate the effects of

01:00:01.220 taking psilocybin versus LSD or are they

01:00:04.580 essentially indistinguishable I mean

01:00:07.620 given the given that a microdose is as

01:00:09.860 close to subliminal as you can get I can't

01:00:14.260 imagine there's much to say about the

01:00:16.280 difference there but well when I was

01:00:18.320 giving the differences in kindness and

01:00:20.880 coldness I was actually quoting someone

01:00:24.340 who said in our microdose community in

01:00:26.740 Los Angeles we've come to that conclusion

01:00:29.360 that psilocybin is a little nicer

01:00:32.020 interesting the important question is how

01:00:35.640 long is it effective and this is where it

01:00:37.600 gets interesting we know that LSD has

01:00:40.480 major effects 10 to 12 hours and and we

01:00:43.780 all say as if that as if it stops at that

01:00:46.480 point we forget that with high doses

01:00:49.460 there's also what's called an afterglow of

01:00:52.460 four to six weeks where you feel better

01:00:55.800 about everything in many ways and you're

01:00:57.840 more creative and and so forth with

01:01:00.220 microdosing very early on what I discovered

01:01:03.940 was what I called a two-day effect which is if

01:01:07.260 it's psilocybin or LSD there's at least a

01:01:11.580 two-day effect and great many people say I

01:01:15.100 actually prefer the second day it's better

01:01:17.740 so we're dealing with something which

01:01:21.520 isn't distinguished in the easy sense of

01:01:24.860 time it may be distinguished in terms of

01:01:28.520 its emotional warmth but because you're

01:01:31.080 taking it as part of your normal life

01:01:33.380 you'll you know if you feel better and

01:01:37.740 you're more effective it's hard to say

01:01:39.660 is that analytic or is that emotional

01:01:41.800 it's simply that my goodness I hadn't

01:01:46.500 noticed a way to work that little niche

01:01:52.340 at the bank that always I'm walking to

01:01:54.500 work I look forward to the flowers

01:01:56.200 particularly on days when I microdosed

01:01:57.760 yeah as far as the emotional valence as

01:02:02.880 far as how microdosing might be recommended

01:02:06.300 or contraindicated for any person I can

01:02:09.320 well imagine that microdosing would have

01:02:12.440 would have antidepressant effects it seems

01:02:15.620 to increase arousal generally it's it may

01:02:19.800 as you say it kind of brightens your

01:02:22.060 attention and it would surprise me if it

01:02:25.440 wasn't functioning as a kind of cognitive

01:02:28.200 enhancer and antidepressant but I could

01:02:30.480 also see that it might be contraindicated

01:02:33.500 for somebody with any kind of anxiety

01:02:35.600 disorder I mean it seems to me that there

01:02:37.640 is a kind of anxiety like valence to mere

01:02:41.040 arousal well I would say Sam as an N of 1.00

01:02:46.160 one you have hit on both of the most

01:02:49.800 important aspects positive and negative

01:02:52.340 that people are aware of and let me let me

01:02:55.280 break that down let's look at depression

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - March 23, 2021

#242 — Psychedelics and the Self

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