Making Sense - Sam Harris - #246 — Police Training & Police Misconduct

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast, this is Sam Harris.

00:00:24.440 Okay, well today is yet another PSA, this time on the topic of police violence and the

00:00:34.720 relevance of jiu-jitsu training to mitigating some of the problems there.

00:00:39.820 Today I'm speaking with Henner Gracie, and Henner, if you don't recognize the name, is a third

00:00:47.300 generation member of the legendary Gracie family that is credited with creating Brazilian

00:00:52.920 jiu-jitsu in large measure, and passing it down through now three generations, where

00:01:00.600 Henner and his brother Huron are some of the best teachers on the planet, and they have

00:01:07.300 focused in recent years on teaching police officers the skills they need to apprehend

00:01:14.680 and control suspects without significantly injuring them, right?

00:01:20.460 And jiu-jitsu, as you'll hear, is uniquely good for this, and this training is being made

00:01:25.480 available to police departments all over the country, and Henner and Huron are at the forefront

00:01:31.140 of this.

00:01:32.180 They're not the only people doing it, but they are amazingly effective at what they do.

00:01:36.720 So, as you'll hear, this conversation is a true PSA and almost an infomercial for this

00:01:44.460 kind of training, and that's not an accident.

00:01:47.340 We're at a moment now in the public perception of policing that is nothing short of calamitous.

00:01:55.640 As I record this, we're getting to the end of the Derek Chauvin trial.

00:02:00.080 It's, of course, not yet clear what the verdict will be there.

00:02:02.660 However, as you'll hear, Henner and I are both quite clear in leaving aside the Chauvin

00:02:09.060 case for the purposes of today's discussion.

00:02:12.160 It is certainly not an example of pervasive misunderstanding of police procedure.

00:02:19.120 I think anyone who saw the killing of George Floyd recognized that we were witnessing a shocking

00:02:26.260 instance of police misconduct, and at just what level a jury will soon decide.

00:02:32.660 But, for instance, in recent days, since I recorded this conversation with Henner, there's

00:02:37.440 been the case of Daunte Wright, a motorist who was shot and killed by a police officer in

00:02:43.860 Minnesota.

00:02:44.860 And this, if you've seen the video, it's about as clear as it can be that the police officer,

00:02:51.680 Kimberly Ann Potter, thought she was drawing her taser when she was, in fact, drawing her

00:02:57.020 firearm.

00:02:58.020 And when she shot Daunte Wright, she was horrified to discover that she had her gun in hand.

00:03:05.820 As you'll hear, this is relevant because the police reliance on tasers is not without significant

00:03:11.940 risk.

00:03:13.540 In this case, risk of the extremely negative outcome of drawing your firearm by accident.

00:03:19.480 But the overall picture here is that our police officers are shockingly ill-equipped to deal

00:03:27.940 with the challenges they face.

00:03:30.180 So when members of the general public believe they're witnessing the murderous sadism and

00:03:36.580 racism of an oppressive police force, in many cases, that's not at all what's on display.

00:03:44.840 What we're seeing are people who are poorly trained and very much in over their heads once

00:03:52.020 things turn violent.

00:03:54.400 And I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the pervasive misunderstanding of

00:04:01.400 what's happening here is tearing our country apart.

00:04:06.000 So in the hopes of doing some small thing to help rectify that, I wanted to have a full

00:04:12.820 discussion with Henner on this point of just what it takes for a police officer to arrest

00:04:20.640 someone who is resisting arrest.

00:04:24.800 So Henner and I break that down here, and we talk about the kind of training that should

00:04:28.900 be available more and more to police officers.

00:04:31.560 And there are a few people who are working harder to make that happen than Henner and

00:04:37.100 his brother Huron.

00:04:38.860 They are the chief instructors at Gracie University, which is a global jiu-jitsu organization that's

00:04:44.860 headquartered in Southern California.

00:04:46.720 They have over 180 brick-and-mortar locations worldwide affiliated with them, and over 300,000

00:04:54.000 students learning online at gracieuniversity.com.

00:04:58.260 And they have over 20 years of experience teaching law enforcement professionals.

00:05:03.000 And we talk about some of the recent successes here, which hopefully will be a sign of things

00:05:08.140 to come.

00:05:09.740 And now, without further delay, I bring you Henner Gracie.

00:05:19.020 I am here with Henner Gracie.

00:05:20.860 Henner, thanks for joining me.

00:05:22.660 Sir, how are you, man?

00:05:24.060 My pleasure.

00:05:24.680 Thanks for having me.

00:05:25.700 And yeah, how's it going?

00:05:27.660 Yes, I was telling my producer, Stacey, that this is the marriage of one of the lower energy

00:05:35.420 voices on Earth, my own, and one of the higher energy voices on Earth, yours.

00:05:40.640 And so I'm going to have to snort cocaine over here or do something to bridge the distance

00:05:45.700 between us, or you're going to have to slow it down.

00:05:48.300 Yeah, I think it'll create the...

00:05:49.260 Or it's a perfect marriage, and all your listeners and fans will be in for a delightful,

00:05:53.640 perfectly balanced conversation about the state of law enforcement, jiu-jitsu, and whatever

00:05:59.580 else you want to talk about.

00:06:00.800 Yeah.

00:06:01.180 Yeah.

00:06:01.340 So let's set this up properly.

00:06:04.140 So first, I've spoken about self-defense and martial arts and jiu-jitsu in various places

00:06:11.680 on the podcast before, but you contacted me because, I mean, many of us are seeing kind

00:06:19.180 of troubling signs in, you know, police behavior and training and ideas about what should be

00:06:26.860 legal and illegal in terms of kind of the escalation of force procedure on the side of

00:06:32.560 the cops, and there's just so much confusion about what is going on in the world with respect

00:06:37.640 to the cops and violence, both warranted and unwarranted.

00:06:42.100 And so you do a lot of training, you and your brother, Huron, who's been my main jiu-jitsu

00:06:46.300 teacher, do a lot of training with the police.

00:06:49.280 And so we really want to jump into that and talk about it, and it's obviously an incredibly

00:06:54.380 timely conversation given that, you know, we are now recording this during the trial of

00:06:58.660 Derek Chauvin for the killing of George Floyd.

00:07:02.560 And so there's a lot to say there, but before we jump into police procedure and violence

00:07:09.540 per se, let's just talk about jiu-jitsu and grappling generically and introduce us to how

00:07:16.660 you come to know so much about this.

00:07:19.300 And I'll just set it up by saying that you and your brother are part of the Gracie family,

00:07:23.800 which is this, you know, legendary, isn't too strong a word, family in the martial arts

00:07:29.880 community, and you can talk briefly about the history there.

00:07:32.840 But I just want to say that the conversation we're going to have here is not really adequate

00:07:39.080 to the topic if people don't then go look at some of the video that we might reference

00:07:45.140 of you guys training cops and you really teaching anything on the mat.

00:07:51.540 I mean, the two of you are two of the most gifted teachers of anything I've ever come

00:07:57.580 across.

00:07:58.380 So people really, we'll link to some videos that will be relevant on my website where

00:08:03.200 we embed this podcast.

00:08:04.440 But, you know, this is an audio document that really requires some visual aids in the end.

00:08:11.800 So I just want to say that as a preamble.

00:08:14.760 And perhaps you can just briefly talk about the history of jiu-jitsu and how you come

00:08:20.800 to be talking about this.

00:08:22.840 I appreciate it.

00:08:23.440 And I always appreciate the opportunity to share, you know, really my family's legacy

00:08:29.740 of self-defense and martial arts with a new audience.

00:08:32.140 So thank you, Sam, for having me on and for your dedication to this amazing martial art for

00:08:37.700 so many years.

00:08:38.300 And yeah, it's wise of you to kind of give some framework for the listeners to understand

00:08:43.800 what's going on here because you, as someone who practices the art, it's as what we're

00:08:48.760 going to talk about today is as common sense and logical in terms of the major advancements

00:08:52.900 that have been made in the recent months and years in law enforcement training as a result

00:08:56.240 of jiu-jitsu.

00:08:57.040 For you, it absolutely makes sense because you have all that kind of that frame that is

00:09:00.580 that frame as a practitioner of the art.

00:09:02.540 But for listeners who do not have a history or even knowledge of jiu-jitsu and maybe the

00:09:07.400 exposure, because it's such a pop culture phenomenon now is mixed martial arts, maybe

00:09:12.140 your exposure is literally hearing about a UFC title fight and a technique or an arm bar

00:09:17.460 or a neck restraint or a chokehold being used.

00:09:19.380 That might be someone's exposure.

00:09:20.780 So understanding that that's the case, I can give a brief breakdown of the family history

00:09:24.620 and, you know, how we got into jiu-jitsu and what it was intended for.

00:09:27.340 And then how, when the time comes, how that translates perfectly into the use of force

00:09:32.740 in law enforcement today, which we're absolutely involved in for the last 25 plus years.

00:09:38.320 So, you know, the Gracie family, my grandfather, Elio Gracie, was the co-creator of Brazilian

00:09:42.500 jiu-jitsu.

00:09:43.120 They learned it from his brother, Carlos, who learned from Japanese men in Brazil.

00:09:47.460 This is in the early 1900s.

00:09:49.620 And eventually when my grandfather started practicing, he had difficulties with the Japanese rendition

00:09:55.200 of the art and because he was a very small, very frail, very weak young man as a teenager.

00:10:00.720 So because of his physical frailties, he had no choice but to modify the techniques over

00:10:04.960 several years to adapt his frail physique.

00:10:07.240 And those adaptations to the Japanese predecessor are what gave birth to what is known today as

00:10:12.600 Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Gracie jiu-jitsu, depending who you're learning it from.

00:10:16.000 And, you know, that happened in Brazil in the early 1900s.

00:10:18.420 And to test the efficacy of these techniques, my grandfather started engaging in challenge matches,

00:10:22.280 fights with other representatives of other martial arts.

00:10:25.060 Think mixed martial arts, but before it was called that.

00:10:27.080 These are just, you know, no rules fights between two masters of their crafts, really

00:10:31.040 from a scientific perspective to understand what works and what doesn't.

00:10:34.980 That happened in Brazil for decades.

00:10:37.160 And my grandfather, you know, fought all comers and so did some of his brothers.

00:10:40.660 So these are Gracie challenge matches started in Brazil.

00:10:42.900 And then my father brought the art to America in 1978, got established in his garage here in

00:10:47.360 Southern California, in Hermosa Beach, and continued teaching at his garage and also having these

00:10:52.520 challenge matches in the garage where, you know, he would meet a karate master through

00:10:56.240 a student of his in the garage, was introduced to a karate master or a taekwondo master.

00:11:00.320 And then these challenge matches would happen between two arts. 0.85

00:11:02.960 And there was really no rules.

00:11:04.200 It was, listen, you do you, I do me.

00:11:05.720 When you're knocked out or passed out or tap out, we stop.

00:11:08.960 Until then, we keep fighting.

00:11:10.540 And again, these were professionals really believing in their crafts, going there.

00:11:14.380 And invariably, these representatives of these other disciplines would get submitted and

00:11:19.040 neutralized very quickly, minutes, sometimes less than a minute.

00:11:22.820 And it was almost unbelievable to them how effective jujitsu was.

00:11:26.100 And the reason why jujitsu was so effective, if I had to summarize it in a nutshell, why jujitsu

00:11:31.480 is so good is because where other martial arts rely on speed, strength, power, and explosiveness

00:11:37.400 and surprise attack and violence in that manner, jujitsu, above everything else,

00:11:43.120 violates the distance from which traditional fights are fought, right?

00:11:48.200 Rather than standing toe-to-toe and swinging to see who knocks the other person out, jujitsu

00:11:51.700 aims to close the distance, control the subject, take the person to the ground or surface where

00:11:57.140 their strikes no longer have power because they don't have their feet planted and the 0.93

00:12:01.020 proper distance to deliver that strike.

00:12:02.880 They're now on their ground flailing, don't know what to do.

00:12:05.400 And then the jujitsu person who's more comfortable in that grappling distance controls them until

00:12:10.000 they exhaust and invariably the opponent or the untrained adversary, the non-jujitsu opponent

00:12:15.340 in that case, will make a mistake by exposing a limb or a neck, a joint of some sort.

00:12:20.220 And then the jujitsu practitioner will use leverage, not strength, but leverage, full body

00:12:24.420 mechanics to isolate one of the limbs or neck of the subject and then apply a submission

00:12:29.460 that will render them into submission.

00:12:32.500 At that point, they have no choice but to tap out or suffer extreme bodily harm if the pressure

00:12:37.580 were to be applied to his max capacity or capability, which 99 times out of a hundred isn't necessary

00:12:44.320 because the jujitsu trained expert there knows that they have full control, they get compliance

00:12:49.140 or they get cooperation, or in this case, a tap out during a challenge match and the fight's

00:12:52.780 over.

00:12:53.780 And in many cases, it's, you know, and you see these, these are videos are online.

00:12:57.140 If you look up Gracie challenge matches, they're on YouTube from the garage days, from random

00:13:01.080 colleges and dojos.

00:13:02.400 And that's kind of how the West was won.

00:13:03.980 And then my father and his partner, Art Davey, were the co-creators for the UFC.

00:13:08.460 And that's where the whole thing took another form because it was basically using the UFC,

00:13:12.860 using television as a platform to make these challenge matches seen to the world so that

00:13:17.160 everyone around the world could say, wow, how is karate going to do against boxing, against

00:13:21.080 sumo, against judo, against kickboxing, against jujitsu?

00:13:23.880 Like what's going to happen?

00:13:25.640 And no one believed it was possible.

00:13:27.460 They made it happen.

00:13:28.540 It was more successful than they imagined.

00:13:29.960 And, um, and today, you know, fast forward several owners, right?

00:13:34.900 My father sold his interest after the first, I think five installments.

00:13:37.600 And then at that point, it changed hands a couple of times to the Fertitta brothers who

00:13:41.140 then got ahold of it.

00:13:42.040 And with Dana White's help made it a, you know, a spectator sport on a regular television,

00:13:46.460 made it a sanctioned sport.

00:13:47.340 And then it blew up.

00:13:48.220 And today everyone knows jujitsu kind of in that lens.

00:13:51.120 But I think the important part for this discussion is that the people at the, at the core of

00:13:56.420 jujitsu, right, the Gracie family and, you know, people that we've taught and other instructors

00:13:59.800 who've made this their life know that above everything else, jujitsu is the art that gives

00:14:06.200 a smaller, less physically fit, powerful, less athletic person, the ability to defend themselves

00:14:12.840 and control and overcome a larger, more athletic person by way of distance management, by way

00:14:18.300 of alavanca or leverage, and by way of, you know, energy efficiency.

00:14:23.340 And through those processes, control someone in a relatively nonviolent manner, neutralize

00:14:28.660 them, exhaust their energy, and then ultimately win the fight with a leverage-based joint lock

00:14:33.260 or chokehold.

00:14:34.940 And that's what makes this art so special.

00:14:36.740 It's truly the leveler of the playing field for smaller, weaker individuals, which is why

00:14:41.840 it's taken just such a rapid, you know, escalation of popularity here with the assistance

00:14:47.080 of the UFC, it's now becoming the martial art to learn as an adult or as a child, right?

00:14:53.300 Where historically, you know, karate and taekwondo were more associated with children, right, developing

00:14:58.040 confidence and discipline.

00:14:59.720 More historically, you'd see that association.

00:15:01.780 And as someone got older, they would stop doing taekwondo or karate.

00:15:04.420 Well, with jujitsu, it's the opposite, right?

00:15:06.260 You're living proof of that.

00:15:07.600 And every other person who's just a lifelong fan and practitioner of the art, it's so engaging,

00:15:12.820 it's so effective, it's so reliable, and ultimately, it allows people to neutralize

00:15:17.560 violence without violence.

00:15:19.200 And that's what I think has, you know, such pertinence to today's discussion regarding

00:15:22.300 law enforcement.

00:15:23.540 Yeah, I just want to pick up on a couple of points there.

00:15:25.820 One is just for those who are not fans of mixed martial arts and don't really know the

00:15:32.060 significance of what happened in the UFC in the Ultimate Fighting Championship, which

00:15:39.320 launched, it was 1993, right, was the first one?

00:15:42.080 Correct.

00:15:42.240 Yeah, November, yeah, November 12th, 1993.

00:15:45.480 Yeah, so your father, Horian, launched that, and, you know, it's become this major sport,

00:15:52.000 which is great, but we should recall that it really was in the beginning and for the longest

00:15:58.100 time remained a virtual science experiment to discover which martial art was the best, really.

00:16:06.540 I mean, it's like, so under conditions of minimal rules, I mean, there are now more rules than

00:16:11.460 there were back in the day, but, you know, virtually no rules apart from eye gouging.

00:16:17.140 I mean, you could even, if memory serves, you could even strike to the groin in some of those

00:16:21.880 first competitions, or at least people did.

00:16:24.760 I mean, it was just, it was as close to a street fight in a ring as anyone had ever seen,

00:16:29.800 and there were no weight classes and no time limits, right?

00:16:34.160 And, if I add, it was a single elimination, eight or 16-man tournament in the same night.

00:16:41.080 Yeah.

00:16:41.440 So you had to fight three times to win in the same night with no time limits.

00:16:45.820 Yeah, it's like the movie The Game of Death, where Bruce Lee has to fight someone on every

00:16:49.600 floor.

00:16:50.020 If you're going to win that thing, you have to just keep advancing through opponents.

00:16:54.700 And so your uncle, Hoist Gracie, won, to the astonishment of virtually everyone who didn't

00:17:02.740 understand what was likely to happen here, the dominance that he showed in those initial

00:17:10.340 bouts over people who were, you know, obviously bigger and stronger and obviously thought they

00:17:16.160 were going to crush him.

00:17:18.320 And the fact that he did it all by, as you say, closing the distance and, you know, essentially

00:17:23.920 strangling people, it was mystifying and it created a total reset of the thinking around

00:17:33.120 martial arts and martial arts competition.

00:17:36.260 And, I mean, since things have moved on, I mean, the primacy of jiu-jitsu is less noticeable

00:17:43.480 now because people from every discipline, whether they start out as a college wrestler or even

00:17:49.780 just a stand-up striker, if they're going to get into mixed martial arts, they're going

00:17:54.560 to learn a lot of jiu-jitsu, whether they call it that or not, because it is the necessary

00:18:00.660 foundation for grappling and certainly submission in the sport now.

00:18:07.180 So it's, we shouldn't give the false sense that jiu-jitsu is all a person needs to know

00:18:11.540 now to succeed in mixed martial arts.

00:18:13.880 Obviously, there's a lot of striking and specialization in that space, but it has unique relevance to

00:18:20.580 the topic at hand, which is so much a matter of understanding how to control people.

00:18:29.740 When you're talking about the tools that are available to police officers to, with a minimal

00:18:36.160 amount of violence, arrest somebody who they've decided to arrest, the tools they have are quite

00:18:43.120 limited, and there's certainly no tool that is better than being a true expert in how to

00:18:51.980 physically control people without inflicting lasting injury on them.

00:18:57.400 And if you don't know jiu-jitsu, if you don't know, you know, call it grappling more generically,

00:19:02.520 if you're not an expert grappler, and there's so many videos that attest to how poorly trained

00:19:07.960 most cops are in this space, you resort to the use of other tools that are synonymous

00:19:14.500 with inflicting lasting injury on a subject.

00:19:18.540 So the moment you take out a baton and start cracking someone over the head with it,

00:19:22.720 right, that is going to work by a principle that is synonymous with neurological injury.

00:19:29.060 We can transition to talking about

00:19:31.060 cops here, but I guess there's two sides of this that are very interesting to me.

00:19:35.540 There's what the cops are trained to do and should be trained to do and how they can

00:19:40.060 play their game more or less impeccably.

00:19:42.960 But then there's also the immense amount of confusion people have over the significance

00:19:49.020 of how the people getting arrested can behave or misbehave.

00:19:55.320 When I see videos of these botched arrests, you know, where cops use or, you know, for one

00:20:00.840 reason or another, provoke to using, you know, inordinate violence, so often I'm seeing people

00:20:07.000 resisting arrest in obviously dangerous ways, obviously provocative ways, obviously doing

00:20:13.600 things with their hands that, you know, in another context a cop has to expect is an effort 0.98

00:20:21.760 to produce a weapon to kill them.

00:20:23.720 And these things are going off the rails because so many people just do not understand the cop's 0.99

00:20:29.480 eye view of this encounter.

00:20:31.760 So I think we should talk about both sides of this, but that's just to set you off and

00:20:36.220 running in the direction of what cops should and should not be doing here.

00:20:39.900 So we have to start with, by clarifying some of the misunderstandings around police training

00:20:48.380 policing because, right, what we have today at the core, what we have right now is an

00:20:53.640 incredible level of disappointment, right?

00:20:56.400 Like an unmatched level of disappointment from the general public on police performance

00:21:02.760 when it comes to use of force, right?

00:21:04.340 It's fair to say that there's just, it's never been such a high degree or such a large

00:21:10.720 gap between what level of force the police officers are using and what the general public

00:21:16.340 believes the police officers should be using, okay?

00:21:19.740 And I want to kind of start with that position.

00:21:21.720 That's the gap, right?

00:21:22.820 The police disappointment gap.

00:21:24.100 I call it the PD gap.

00:21:25.780 And that gap is larger than it's ever been.

00:21:27.620 I want to talk about how we got to that point and where we actually started.

00:21:31.320 So the most shocking information I give people when I talk about this subject is the fact

00:21:37.560 that the average police officer in California, okay, and other states, some more, some less,

00:21:43.840 but on average, in California, receives four hours of control, arresting control training

00:21:49.200 every two years.

00:21:52.740 Now, just to be clear, arresting control includes jujitsu type grappling, restraint devices,

00:22:00.360 cuffing, right?

00:22:01.680 It includes use of force policy law.

00:22:04.560 So they have to have the refresher on what the law is regarding use of force and certain,

00:22:08.120 you know, case studies that they kind of revert to when they talk about use of force and law

00:22:12.080 enforcement. So in four hours, it's not uncommon.

00:22:14.660 And this is not me guessing.

00:22:15.960 This is the actual trainers here at local California agencies telling me this.

00:22:20.000 They said, Henry, in four hours, it's not uncommon that only one of those hours at most

00:22:24.200 is physical control tactics that the officer can use when they're taking someone down and

00:22:30.480 controlling them in a violent resisting of arrest situation, right?

00:22:34.840 So when you hear that, four hours every two years, which means basically two hours a year,

00:22:43.360 but you split those four hours up and there's only an hour of grappling, which gives you an

00:22:45.940 average of 30 minutes potentially of grappling jujitsu type training annually for an officer.

00:22:52.260 It gives some framework to what we're dealing with here.

00:22:55.360 So when I see the state of the country right now and people are like pissed that cops are using

00:22:59.720 too much force and defund the police, there's a lot of things going on there, I'm torn because

00:23:05.660 I'm going, I don't think the general public knows how little training we're talking about

00:23:12.320 them starting with.

00:23:14.360 And then, so then the question, when you see an excessive use of force, it's for one of

00:23:18.180 two reasons.

00:23:19.380 It could either be the cop was incredibly well-trained and they're abusing their power deliberately,

00:23:25.140 right?

00:23:25.600 For any number of reasons, they're flexing their power and they're going above and beyond

00:23:29.860 and they just want to show how they can hurt people and they go and they do it.

00:23:32.980 There's another possibility here though, that the cop is so disastrously under-trained, the

00:23:39.280 actual end user street cops are so disastrously under-trained that when they enter into these

00:23:44.520 violent, incredibly intense, life-threatening altercations, even when there is no weapon present

00:23:49.860 from the subject, there's always a weapon on the officer's hip.

00:23:52.540 So every engagement is a life or death engagement when there's a gun on the officer's hip that

00:23:56.720 can be taken from them, which does, which is not uncommon.

00:23:59.220 So when they're in these life and death physical altercations or arrest scenarios and they,

00:24:05.060 and this is your expertise, so you can correct me here.

00:24:06.980 And they experienced the amygdala hijack, right?

00:24:10.240 Where their, their, their survival response takes over because they're so under-trained that

00:24:15.600 they do not know how to handle the situation.

00:24:17.440 And as a result, when the amygdala hijack happens and they lose prefrontal cortex control,

00:24:22.980 now all of their decisions are fight or flight or freeze or survival mode, fear-based responses

00:24:27.400 that are really automatic and they don't have much of a choice in the matter.

00:24:30.880 They're no longer themselves.

00:24:32.080 And the level of force they use at that point, it's a complete toss in the air of what's

00:24:37.060 going to happen.

00:24:37.580 Nobody really knows.

00:24:38.520 And that's why we get so many uses of force that are so disastrous.

00:24:40.880 So the point I'm making is that my experience and every single time, Sam, that I go to a

00:24:47.460 GST, Gracie Survival Tactics, is our law enforcement week-long 40-hour certification course where

00:24:53.940 these cops learn the Gracie tactics and they become trainers that then go back to their

00:24:57.920 agencies and teach their colleagues. 0.96

00:24:59.780 The problem is in those courses, we teach them for a whole week and they learn a ridiculous

00:25:04.320 amount of information and they become proficient when they test out of that course.

00:25:07.520 When they go home and the California agency, the chief says, yes, you can train our officers.

00:25:12.640 They call them in-service officers, the ones that are the street cops.

00:25:15.860 You can do an in-service class for four hours.

00:25:18.220 And out of those four hours, this every two years, you can teach one hour of GST.

00:25:22.480 So the fact that we're teaching the cops great techniques that are nonviolent is really

00:25:26.560 insignificant because when they go home and teach it one hour every two years, really on

00:25:31.040 average or less, there's no recall capability.

00:25:34.180 There's no reflex development in that amount of time.

00:25:36.260 I have students that train one hour a week, two hours a week, and there's still white 1.00

00:25:39.440 belts after a year who could finally put this stuff together.

00:25:42.360 So the level of undertraining cannot be overstated.

00:25:45.800 And the fact that we train instructors at a high level, but they go back and get blocked

00:25:49.240 by the state mandated requirements is where this entire thing falls flat on its face.

00:25:53.960 So GST, as great of a course that it's been, and as much as a great review we get from the

00:25:58.060 students that we teach, those are the instructors.

00:26:00.880 So they go back and teach these end users and everything falls apart.

00:26:03.980 And I would go so far to say that based on my knowledge, because I ask them, Sam, every

00:26:07.700 class we survey them, and I ask, how many hours on average annually do your in-service

00:26:14.200 officers get at your agency?

00:26:16.260 And I'm in the room with 100 officers from sometimes 50 to 80 agencies, right?

00:26:20.300 Two or three cops from a different agency.

00:26:21.840 So I'm teaching a massive room full of people of all these instructors, and the average answer

00:26:26.160 is four to eight hours a year.

00:26:27.740 But that includes all those other things that we're talking about, right?

00:26:30.840 Some other states have more, some states have less, but all of them know that even if it

00:26:34.920 were eight hours, Sam, and it was all eight hours were GST techniques, it would not be

00:26:40.600 enough.

00:26:41.200 Yeah, not even close.

00:26:42.660 Not even close.

00:26:43.740 And my recommendation for the country is it has to be at least one hour a week of jujitsu

00:26:50.320 practice, right?

00:26:52.220 Preferably jujitsu adapted for law enforcement scenarios, because it is different.

00:26:55.940 You know that.

00:26:56.400 Like when there's a gun involved and this person can grab your gun, you got to do the

00:26:59.920 Americana arm lock is different when someone's reaching for your gun.

00:27:03.120 But the point is, I would go so far to say, and I've said this publicly already, that based

00:27:07.920 on what information I know about how under-trained the end users are, which is not public knowledge,

00:27:12.040 right?

00:27:12.180 The people typically don't, they think they're trained like Navy SEALs, which is why you

00:27:15.200 get such a high degree of disappointment.

00:27:16.620 Because if they were trained like Navy SEALs, where they trained six months for an eight-week

00:27:20.320 deployment, if they were trained like Navy SEALs, we wouldn't see this level of poor

00:27:24.000 performance and bad judgment.

00:27:26.160 But I'd go so far to say, and I have, that police officers in America are the most under-trained

00:27:34.280 professionals in the country.

00:27:37.140 There is no profession in America where we ask the professional to do more with less training

00:27:46.540 invested in them than when we ask a police officer, which is a regular human being, like

00:27:52.780 you or I or any other person off the street, we ask a regular human being to arrest a violently

00:27:59.240 resistant and in many cases, assaultive subject with four hours, let's just call it, of training

00:28:06.320 every year or two.

00:28:08.360 You're not, you couldn't create a worse scenario for someone asked to do a harder job.

00:28:13.180 Yeah, I'll simply add, I don't actually know the exact numbers, but I know that the story

00:28:18.580 with respect to firearms training isn't much rosier.

00:28:22.580 I mean, the assumption is that cops are very well trained with guns and have all the scenario

00:28:30.020 training that tunes their intuitions with respect to when to draw a gun and when to fire

00:28:36.580 it.

00:28:36.820 And it's just amazing how little, little effect of firearms training cops have.

00:28:42.580 Six hundred and sixty-four hours, Sam, is the state mandated requirement of training by

00:28:47.660 California Post, peace officer standard of training, to be a police officer in California.

00:28:52.920 Every state has its own.

00:28:54.000 In California, it's six hundred and sixty-four hours to become a cop.

00:28:56.800 Just for comparison, it's sixteen hundred hours to become a cosmetologist and fifteen hundred

00:29:03.500 hours to become a barber.

00:29:05.440 So both of those require more than double the training that it takes to become a police

00:29:09.720 officer in the United States of America, California state of the United States.

00:29:15.040 And every other state has slight deviations from that.

00:29:17.700 But the point is, to your point, that includes firearms, that includes hand-to-hand combat,

00:29:22.240 that includes arrest and control, that includes legal policy and everything else in between.

00:29:25.720 So even on a macro level, what it takes to become a cop, I was talking more on the micro

00:29:30.440 annual arrest and control four hours a year.

00:29:32.800 On the macro level, we're setting these cops up for disasters because you're taking a regular

00:29:39.740 human who, in many cases, has never been in a fight in their life.

00:29:43.080 You're giving them six hundred and sixty-four hours of training that include everything under

00:29:45.820 the sun, but not nearly enough of everything, right?

00:29:48.020 So they learn a little bit about everything, but they're masters of nothing.

00:29:50.900 And then you give them a gun and a badge and say, go enforce the law.

00:29:53.400 And they think that because they have a gun, that people are going to listen to them.

00:29:56.740 So the moment that someone says, I'm not going to jail, spits on the cop and starts walking

00:30:00.520 away.

00:30:01.140 And now you're asking this regular human who played high school, graduated high school,

00:30:05.280 played video games every day, all day, four hours a day, got it, went in, joined a police

00:30:09.300 department and became a police officer.

00:30:11.180 Not all of them, but I'm just saying, this is possible, right?

00:30:14.160 You're getting a kid who's never played a sport, never been in a fight in his life or her,

00:30:17.400 and now is being asked to arrest a violent person without any substantial training

00:30:23.100 in the skill, right?

00:30:25.060 The grappling and or jujitsu skill set that will allow them to do that in a way that A,

00:30:29.460 protects themselves, right?

00:30:31.260 First and foremost, protect the officer, but secondarily, and very importantly, protects

00:30:36.320 the subject in the process.

00:30:38.440 So because, listen, the amygdala hijack happens, as you know, when there's an actual or perceived

00:30:44.500 loss of control.

00:30:46.140 And in law enforcement, a high stress law enforcement situation where someone resists arrest, an officer

00:30:51.440 can very quickly go into the mental framework of, oh my gosh, I can't control them, they're

00:30:55.680 not listening to me, they get very quickly elevated anxiety, and soon they're in the

00:31:00.400 amygdala hijack, and now it's fight or flight, and now they're going to quickly resort to

00:31:03.540 their pepper spray, taser, baton, or any, you know, firearm, worst case scenario, in very

00:31:08.640 rapid succession.

00:31:09.800 What jujitsu does, look at you or me, Sam, for example, who've invested years in a skill

00:31:16.540 set that allows us to be in close quarters with someone, control them against their will,

00:31:20.280 and do so without hurting them or ourselves.

00:31:23.240 Think about how we would respond in a situation where there's an officer, or sorry, a suspect

00:31:28.260 who's behaving erratically and violently and not cooperating, and we decide we have to take

00:31:32.580 this person down.

00:31:33.540 We have so many options before this situation becomes deadly because we've invested in the

00:31:38.940 skill set and we're confident.

00:31:40.440 And as a result of that confidence, the perception of loss of control comes much later.

00:31:45.640 It requires much more violence and chaos for you or I to perceive the loss of control than

00:31:54.020 for an officer who does not know how to control a violent subject with their bare hands.

00:32:00.020 That's what we're fighting for.

00:32:01.400 We're fighting to get more training for officers because when I see these videos go viral and

00:32:07.860 people are so quickly to judge it as an abusive use of power by the police officer.

00:32:13.700 And just because it's on topic, the Derek Chauvin case, I'm not referring to that, right?

00:32:19.340 To me, that was an abusive use of power.

00:32:22.940 That was not a—in my case, I would not classify that as, oh, he's undertrained, therefore he

00:32:28.320 overutilized his force.

00:32:30.000 He had the guy cuffed prone.

00:32:32.080 There was not really any threat to him or other officers.

00:32:34.060 And he kept the knee on the neck for far too long.

00:32:36.460 And the anatomy of how that affected his blood flow, we can discuss later if you want.

00:32:39.840 But the point is, I'm not speaking about that.

00:32:41.560 I'm talking about the 99% of other videos where it just gets out of hand, crazy.

00:32:46.820 And the cop escalates force unreasonably to the public who see it on video.

00:32:51.660 And everyone goes, man, that cop abused, used their deadly force, used their taser way

00:32:55.280 too soon.

00:32:56.060 What I'm speculating and what I feel is often the case is you have a good person who's doing

00:33:00.960 the job for the right reason.

00:33:02.100 But even the best cop, the best character, moral character, best values, the best cop

00:33:08.480 on the planet, let's just say, the second they're in a situation that they are not prepared

00:33:13.980 to handle non-violently, they're going to handle it violently.

00:33:20.620 Yeah.

00:33:21.400 Well, not only that, they have a duty to handle it violently because—I want to come back to

00:33:28.160 that one detail you brought into play here is that when you're dealing with a cop, there's

00:33:34.580 always a gun on the table.

00:33:36.900 And this is something that people just simply do not have intuitions about.

00:33:40.780 So when you see some of these videos where someone starts resisting arrest and they start,

00:33:46.420 you know, pushing a cop or, you know, grabbing, you know, the cop tries to restrain someone,

00:33:52.500 tries to start cuffing someone.

00:33:53.860 They start resisting, they start pushing back, it becomes a grappling match or, you know,

00:33:59.100 the guy's girlfriend runs up and grabs the cop to stop him from trying to cuff the boyfriend 1.00

00:34:03.740 or whatever it is.

00:34:05.120 Whenever you put your hands on a cop, this, in the cop's mind, very, very quickly has to

00:34:13.000 be perceived as a fight for his or her gun.

00:34:16.100 That's what will happen if you overpower the cop.

00:34:19.960 In the cop's universe, that is an absolutely bright line that cannot be crossed.

00:34:25.640 And yet in the thinking of so many people who just think they shouldn't be arrested for

00:34:30.340 whatever reason, it just seems like fair play.

00:34:33.020 You know, it's like if the cop pushes me, I can push him back, I can grab him, I can punch 0.98

00:34:36.720 him.

00:34:37.380 You know, it's like it's completely inappropriate for a cop at that point to draw his gun and

00:34:41.620 shoot somebody, but the cop doesn't know what you're going to do if you knock him out, right?

00:34:48.480 He has to assume the worst at what you're going to do to him and to the rest of the

00:34:52.720 public that he or she's pledged to protect.

00:34:55.680 And so the presence of the cop's firearm changes everything.

00:35:00.840 And then there's the additional fact that people have terrible intuitions for what is truly

00:35:07.280 threatening from the cop's point of view with respect to what a person can be doing with

00:35:11.900 their hands.

00:35:12.560 I mean, it's just the moment someone sticks their hands in the pocket of their hoodie or

00:35:17.700 they turn around and grab something off the front seat of their car and they're not following

00:35:22.060 directions, the moment your hands go out of sight, that is a five alarm fire from the cop's

00:35:29.500 point of view.

00:35:29.940 And it has to be because every cop knows of the case where a half a second later, that

00:35:37.520 hand that just disappeared is now holding a gun and it's shooting a cop in the face,

00:35:43.100 right?

00:35:43.320 And all of those videos exist.

00:35:45.760 Virtually 99% of people are unable to rationally interpret what they see when they see these

00:35:52.740 videos of arrests going haywire.

00:35:55.040 Yeah, I really like that, Sam.

00:35:56.060 And I think that it's a very valid point, 100%.

00:36:00.340 And you kind of touched on two.

00:36:02.040 One of them was the cop has a gun on his hip and the likelihood of that gun being taken

00:36:06.960 from him or her during the altercation is so real that the cop cannot get knocked out.

00:36:12.780 It has to be, in the cop's mind, it has to be impossible that they allow a knockout so

00:36:16.760 they're willing to do anything to prevent that.

00:36:18.620 And the other one is letting the suspect's hands, you know, be out of sight and kind of splitting

00:36:22.660 those two apart.

00:36:23.280 Regarding the cop having the gun on their hip and the risk that that presents in every

00:36:26.380 situation, I agree.

00:36:28.280 And I think that people are completely oblivious to those realities because cops understand

00:36:32.860 and have seen all the videos and have done all the research and have, you know, have

00:36:35.840 had the training and ultimately been told, right? 0.92

00:36:39.520 That, yo, if you get knocked out, they can take your gun, they can shoot you with it.

00:36:42.440 So the cop knows that. 0.88

00:36:43.240 But the general public doesn't know that.

00:36:44.420 So they think they can, you know, rustle and tussle and just kind of grab and push or

00:36:48.580 and be aggressive with an officer, not knowing that the officer can't play that game because

00:36:52.760 of the risks that await them because the stories have happened.

00:36:55.840 But what I will say is that the chance of Henner, if I was a police officer, and I'm not a great

00:37:01.420 example because people are going to say, oh, you're a black belt, you've been doing this

00:37:03.520 your whole life.

00:37:04.000 But let's just, any version of me, let's call the blue belt Henner.

00:37:06.420 Let's call the white belt with four stripes Henner or yourself, right?

00:37:09.700 As a blue belt, that the chance of someone in a ground fight, taking a gun from you or

00:37:14.660 I is significantly lower than taking a gun from a cop who has no ground control and no

00:37:22.740 comfort in that, in that close quarter situation.

00:37:24.860 So even though what you're saying is true, that the people have to understand what I'm

00:37:29.280 saying is, listen, we can only control so much what the world thinks of law enforcement.

00:37:35.340 We can, we can only, you know, it's like, it's like regarding bullying, right?

00:37:38.780 Like parents go, yeah, well, kids shouldn't bully.

00:37:40.380 I go, well, yeah, you can't control what bullies do, but you can control the preparation you

00:37:44.820 give your child so that when they go to school, if they're bully proof with jujitsu, they can

00:37:50.040 put up a barrier and they can behave in a different way.

00:37:51.780 So what I'm saying is I agree that there's a huge problem regarding the public's perception

00:37:55.880 of understanding the reality surrounding law enforcement and the uses of force that they

00:37:59.400 have to go through.

00:37:59.920 They're just, they're not professionals.

00:38:01.000 They don't know, right?

00:38:01.860 We can't, they just don't know, right?

00:38:03.100 But what I can say is that an officer is exponentially less likely to have to resort to deadly force

00:38:09.720 when the feeling of threat against the officer is reduced by the increased training that they

00:38:15.280 invest in.

00:38:15.940 So the more trained an officer is, the less likely that their gun be taken from them

00:38:20.540 or that they're, they be knocked out.

00:38:22.640 A simple example happened in Kansas City a few years back.

00:38:26.160 We did a Gracie breakdown on this.

00:38:27.360 You may link to it.

00:38:28.600 Officer Donald Hubbard, Kansas City police officer, Officer Donald Hubbard, you know,

00:38:33.400 approached a scene where there had been a man who attacked a cab driver and the man

00:38:37.240 attacked a cab driver, was pissed off and was drunk, punched him.

00:38:39.980 Officer Hubbard shows up, tries to take the man down.

00:38:42.680 And in doing so, tries to control, puts him on the ground, puts a knee on his back, like

00:38:46.040 on his torso.

00:38:47.340 And then Officer Hubbard ends up on his back.

00:38:49.760 Now you have Anthony Bruno was the suspect's name.

00:38:52.760 Anthony Bruno was on top of Mr. Hubbard and was hitting him in the face.

00:38:56.300 Like imagine a side control position, Sam, like, you know, bottom of side control, like 0.64

00:38:59.880 kneeling next to you and then hammer fisting you in the face and like scratching you. 0.70

00:39:03.460 That's kind of what it was. 0.58

00:39:04.480 So he was just kneeling on the ground over the top of Officer Hubbard, punching, scratching.

00:39:08.720 Officer Hubbard on his back had no clue what to do, draws his firearm, fires one round

00:39:14.660 and kills the suspect from the bottom of the fight, shooting upward into his torso.

00:39:19.620 The suspect was off-duty firefighter Anthony Bruno.

00:39:22.980 On his wedding night, was drunk, had a debate with the cab driver, and got killed at the

00:39:30.160 hands of a police officer from the same Kansas City.

00:39:33.580 And therein lies the tragedy.

00:39:35.060 Where when I look at that situation, right, because that Officer Hubbard wasn't wrong in

00:39:39.280 his use of force because his life was in danger.

00:39:42.180 But the danger to his life was a function of the four hours every year or two that he receives

00:39:47.340 in ground fighting to where he did not know how to recuperate guard, use his legs to manage

00:39:52.180 the distance, neutralize the strikes that were reaching his face.

00:39:55.920 Had he known how to do any one of those skills, right, he would not have had his life in danger

00:40:00.180 and therefore he could have waited there, waited for help to arrive just by holding a position

00:40:04.000 of guard in Punch Block Series stage one, as we learn as a beginner here in your first

00:40:08.620 five classes, you would learn that.

00:40:10.300 If he were just to hold that position, he would have retained his firearm.

00:40:13.480 He would have not had to use deadly force.

00:40:14.760 But that requires the training.

00:40:16.160 And I don't even blame the officer, Sam.

00:40:18.220 I blame the department who ultimately is at the mercy of the state because the state sets

00:40:24.400 the annual training requirements and chiefs don't like to operate out of bounds.

00:40:28.420 They typically will stay within the state's requirement and say four hours is what the

00:40:31.600 state prescribes.

00:40:33.420 That's what we're going to do for every in-service officer every year.

00:40:36.120 So everyone ultimately is a victim of the state.

00:40:39.160 And there's not really a federal law enforcement requirement.

00:40:42.460 It really is state by state.

00:40:43.780 And then within the state requirements, the agencies have the right to do more or less,

00:40:47.560 but generally they try to stick within the state's requirements just to be safe.

00:40:50.920 So who's to blame in the fact that Officer Hubbard had to shoot off duty firefighter Anthony

00:40:55.480 Bruno because Officer Hubbard reached an amygdala hijack, a perceived loss of control.

00:41:01.840 Well, really actual, I guess, in his case, because he did not know what to do.

00:41:04.900 An actual loss of control in a violent altercation and had to use deadly force because had he got

00:41:10.820 knocked unconscious, for all he knows, the suspect could have used the gun against him.

00:41:15.200 Whether he did or whether he would or would not have, we don't ever know.

00:41:17.860 But they have to presume that that is going to be the case.

00:41:21.200 So this is what we're dealing with.

00:41:22.960 So he shoots that, he shoots officer, he shoots the firefighter, Anthony Bruno.

00:41:27.600 And then people could look and say, oh man, you know, why did he shoot him?

00:41:30.440 He should have just done X, Y, or Z.

00:41:32.020 And my point is, you don't have a choice to use techniques you never learned.

00:41:35.420 And that's where the whole system is failing these officers.

00:41:38.700 We're putting them in situations to expecting much more from them than what we're giving

00:41:43.840 them the skills to do.

00:41:45.280 And then the whole country's on fire because these excessive uses of force.

00:41:50.040 And I'm like, man, of course, there are some of these that are not training issues, right?

00:41:55.020 Their character, their moral issues on behalf of the officers that, you know, are not the

00:42:00.200 best humans, right?

00:42:01.020 The same way there are corrupt and there are criminal jujitsu teachers, there are bad people

00:42:07.060 in every segment of society, in every demographic, and in every profession, there are terrible

00:42:11.240 doctors, there are terrible police officers, there are terrible jujitsu.

00:42:14.340 They're not, no one's perfect.

00:42:15.260 No population is perfect.

00:42:16.700 So you're going to get those officers who are just, shouldn't be police officers, you

00:42:20.560 know, and we'll leave it at that.

00:42:22.120 But the majority are good people who want to do the job the right way.

00:42:26.840 But if they're under-equipped and they underperform as a result of that, who do we blame?

00:42:34.900 And that's where we sit.

00:42:37.380 Actually, Henry, I remember that video.

00:42:40.300 I think I probably saw it first circulated in an email from you.

00:42:45.640 And one of the things that disturbed me about that, I recall, is that this is one of these

00:42:48.960 cases where you have to reflect on how you have the video in the first place.

00:42:52.560 You've got members of the public videotaping this altercation between a cop and somebody

00:42:58.300 else.

00:42:58.700 And the bias, the default bias from the public is that the use of force by the cop is often

00:43:06.120 illegitimate.

00:43:06.920 So in many of these videos, I don't remember in that one in particular, but in many, you're

00:43:11.360 seeing people basically, you know, take the suspect's side of whatever this altercation

00:43:16.780 is and they're shouting at the cop, you know, just leave him alone.

00:43:19.040 But what's not happening in these videos and what certainly wasn't happening in that one

00:43:25.020 were members of the public helping the cop.

00:43:29.300 It would have just taken a few other people to help.

00:43:32.520 You know, granted, in an ideal world, this wouldn't ever be necessary because the cops

00:43:37.180 would be sufficiently well-trained and in sufficient number to meet any challenge that

00:43:42.160 they're dealing with.

00:43:43.420 But I mean, here you have a very clear case of this thing is escalating to a lethal use

00:43:49.040 of force and it would have been rendered totally unnecessary if you just had a few other people

00:43:54.320 grab an arm and a leg and help the cop de-escalate the situation. 0.67

00:43:59.660 Well, I agree 100%.

00:44:01.260 And listen, every single time we see a video that goes viral, you always get people in the

00:44:05.980 comments will say, why are you filming and not helping?

00:44:07.800 So there is an awareness of that.

00:44:09.220 But we have to understand, Sam, that people can only help in situations where they perceive

00:44:13.960 themselves to be capable of helping, right?

00:44:16.580 Like it's easy for you and me to say, hey, trust me, I walk around the streets like looking

00:44:21.840 for an opportunity to help, but it just doesn't happen around me for one reason or another.

00:44:25.380 But I'm here.

00:44:26.140 Like if I saw something, I'm getting in because I would hate for an incident to happen in front

00:44:31.140 of me and to someone to die because I did not intervene.

00:44:34.760 And as a result of my non-intervention, the officer had to escalate a level of force that

00:44:39.180 was probably unnecessary had I otherwise intervened.

00:44:43.040 Now, to be clear, there are also videos of people intervening and they're always glorious

00:44:47.000 to see.

00:44:47.380 And we do breakdowns on them and we highlight them.

00:44:49.440 And I've even asked officers, Sam, I say, guys, if you're having a troubling arrest situation,

00:44:54.540 do you want the assistance of the public?

00:44:57.020 I've actually asked them this on video and they publicly said yes.

00:45:00.120 Like I had a hundred cops in the room and I just did a big video on it one time.

00:45:02.780 And I said, yes or no, do you guys want help if the public is there and you're having trouble?

00:45:06.620 Yes.

00:45:07.300 Enthusiastic.

00:45:07.800 Like they want the help.

00:45:08.900 They're regular people.

00:45:09.880 They would rather have help and not have to escalate level of force.

00:45:12.600 But if they have to do it by themselves and they're outweighed or, you know, someone who's

00:45:15.620 much more athletic than them or they're exhausted or any number of variables that gives the suspect

00:45:20.280 an advantage there, then they have no choice but to use the level of force necessary to neutralize

00:45:25.160 the threat.

00:45:26.140 And the whole point is we still, I agree that people could help.

00:45:31.200 I agree that people could know not to grab a cop's gun or not to push back when a cop

00:45:34.560 does X, Y, or Z.

00:45:35.600 So there are things we can teach the public.

00:45:37.680 But again, the whole proposition and my whole position in all of this is that may happen

00:45:42.800 over time, but I don't know what the right solution is to get to all of the people of

00:45:45.960 the world.

00:45:46.580 But I do have access to most of the law enforcement organizations and departments in the country.

00:45:51.800 And if we can simply increase their capabilities, we will lower the level of force across the entire

00:45:58.920 country.

00:45:59.840 We will see less viral videos.

00:46:01.760 We will see less rapid escalations of force.

00:46:04.380 We will see less amygdala hijacks.

00:46:06.480 And ultimately, cops will eventually, with proper amount of training, perform at a level

00:46:12.500 that the general public expects them to, Sam.

00:46:15.980 That's the whole key in all of this.

00:46:17.780 Because when expectations are met with reality or when reality meets expectations and vice versa,

00:46:23.660 nothing is remarkable.

00:46:25.160 Do you understand?

00:46:25.660 That's just the definition of expected.

00:46:27.380 It's just normal.

00:46:28.600 So when a cop takes someone down, ties them up beautifully, maintains the mount, twists

00:46:32.260 them into a handcuffing procedure, and then cuffs them and walks them into the car, people look

00:46:36.120 at that and go, hmm, that was unremarkable.

00:46:38.540 But what's wild, Sam, is today's day and age, the unremarkable arrests that just happened

00:46:44.060 seamlessly and no problem are remarkable.

00:46:46.720 Yeah, it's like Batman to the rescue.

00:46:48.960 Yeah, but they're so unusual because the training is so disastrous.

00:46:52.920 So it kind of begs the question of like, man, have cops always been this bad?

00:46:57.620 Why is it such a big deal now, right?

00:47:00.040 Why is this becoming such a big deal now?

00:47:01.780 And I will say with confidence, and cops have verified this kind of off the record with

00:47:05.800 me, is I say, guys, why is the public and the cop law enforcement relationship in America

00:47:10.380 right now as bad as it's ever been?

00:47:12.860 Worst ever is right now.

00:47:14.380 Why?

00:47:15.200 And they said, and ultimately the conclusion is this, the public visibility of police performance

00:47:20.800 and uses of force has never been so high, right?

00:47:23.260 The public account, opportunity for accountability by the public has never been so high because

00:47:27.340 every incident is recorded with 17 different cameras, dash cam, body cam, security cam,

00:47:31.940 phone cam, phone cams, three phone cams.

00:47:33.540 So you have all these people filming incidents.

00:47:36.220 So while public visibility has gone through the roof, police training standards, Sam, remain

00:47:42.580 where they were in the 1970s.

00:47:45.220 They haven't upgraded nationwide.

00:47:47.900 The states have not said, okay, now that the visibility is so much higher, we probably

00:47:52.780 got to brush up our arrest and control skills to 12 hours a year instead of four hours a

00:47:57.980 year in our state.

00:47:59.300 That hasn't happened yet.

00:48:00.800 So we're literally sitting at the crossroads between archaic training practices and new

00:48:08.800 age accountability and visibility opportunities for the public.

00:48:12.260 That disparity between those two things is why there is such disappointment and why there

00:48:18.220 is such uproar from the public.

00:48:19.660 Now, let me just tell you this, change is happening.

00:48:22.480 It's gradual, but the fact that that disappointment gap is so large and the public outcry is so substantial

00:48:29.000 right now for better policing and reform, we'll call it, of some sort, some defunding, some

00:48:33.960 agree that better training is the way.

00:48:36.040 Some just want to cancel police altogether.

00:48:37.760 I mean, you have the full spectrum, right?

00:48:39.640 But where I sit, here's my thing, right?

00:48:42.780 Because at everyone, at the core for everyone is they don't want bad cops.

00:48:46.160 They don't want to give a gun and a badge, Sam, to someone who's going to abuse that power.

00:48:50.500 Or that's the general, right?

00:48:52.980 People don't mind a good cop, right?

00:48:54.480 And people don't mind call, even people who are anti-police and want to defund will call

00:48:58.660 the police if they're getting robbed, right?

00:49:00.280 So people want a good officer with good intentions to come do the job and protect and serve and

00:49:06.940 have a high, you know, reverence for human life.

00:49:09.460 Like that's what they want, right?

00:49:11.020 The challenge is, how do you differentiate between good cops and bad cops?

00:49:19.060 And I have a formula that I like to propose as one way that we can arrive towards a better

00:49:25.900 decision on that one key variable that I think every civilian and every police department even

00:49:30.400 would like to identify.

00:49:32.220 And here's my proposition for that.

00:49:33.780 In order to tell the difference between good cops and bad cops, we have to give all cops

00:49:41.080 sufficient training for the challenges they face.

00:49:45.560 And then you see which cops adhere to that training and which cops deliberately deviate

00:49:53.040 and abuse their power.

00:49:55.000 That's it.

00:49:56.020 Because Sam, if I were to arrest grandma, let's just say, Henner were to arrest grandma,

00:49:59.540 I had a gun and a badge, Torrance police officer, Henner Gracie, and I'm not a cop,

00:50:03.840 for the record.

00:50:04.340 I'm just hypothesizing.

00:50:05.820 If I were to go arrest grandma and Sam, I took her down for a traffic violation and

00:50:11.120 I pulled her down, I trip her, throw her on the ground, get on top of her, and I start 0.99

00:50:14.840 blasting her with punches in the skull. 0.97

00:50:17.980 And you saw a video and you knew my record, you knew my training, and you knew all the backstory

00:50:22.640 of why I took her down.

00:50:24.060 Everything was perfectly clear. 0.97

00:50:25.680 And you assess that, you would say, man, Henner's a freaking bad police officer. 0.51

00:50:31.660 Because for everything that I know about this case and everything I know about him, 0.75

00:50:34.700 that was not necessary for him to use that level of force.

00:50:38.600 And it's not like he doesn't have the training to accomplish the objective of neutralizing

00:50:42.820 the threat and taking her into custody with lower level of force.

00:50:46.320 So you would be accurate in your assessment that I was abusing my power.

00:50:51.460 This is the same reason why a black belt in a martial art, right, when they use their martial

00:50:55.780 arts in a street fight, let's say, and they have to, you know, this whole idea of you're

00:50:59.320 a lethal weapon, right?

00:51:00.580 Like you have, because you have lethal training in martial arts, you are judged in a different

00:51:06.640 realm of use of force as a civilian than someone who had no training, right?

00:51:11.100 So I could be, my black belt is almost a liability when it comes to use of force, because

00:51:16.620 a judge or a jury might say, no, Henner, because of your training, you didn't need to

00:51:20.960 use that much force in a street fight over a, you know, a road rage incident.

00:51:24.700 You beat the guy up and you broke both of his arms.

00:51:27.240 Based on your training, we have reason to believe that you should not have used that

00:51:30.660 level of force.

00:51:31.420 It was unnecessary, the level of force that you applied in this street fight that you

00:51:35.320 were in.

00:51:35.960 Yeah.

00:51:36.020 So the same reason that that's an accurate assessment, because I have the training, I'm

00:51:40.180 held to a higher standard, and my deviation from that training is a reflection of my character

00:51:45.320 more than my ability to handle or not handle that situation.

00:51:49.020 So that's my proposition, is the whole country needs to be brought up in terms of a reasonable

00:51:53.740 amount of training, so then when deviations happen, we have nothing to blame other than

00:51:58.380 the character of the officer, because their training and their muscle memory did give them

00:52:03.020 the quality and the skills necessary to perform and neutralize that situation with a lower

00:52:07.000 level of force than what was captured on that video.

00:52:10.160 Yeah.

00:52:10.540 Yeah.

00:52:10.860 No, I fully agree.

00:52:12.700 I mean, it's, there's no argument for the status quo.

00:52:18.260 I mean, I guess someone must be making a resource argument that they don't have the money,

00:52:24.100 the time, they can't spend the resources required to recruit the right people into the ranks of

00:52:29.620 the police force.

00:52:30.240 I got to think, at this point, morale is somewhere near an all-time low in police forces across

00:52:37.220 the country, just given what has happened to public perception since the killing of George

00:52:43.040 Floyd.

00:52:43.640 So it's got to be a very difficult time to recruit good people to the force.

00:52:48.120 Never been harder.

00:52:48.880 Never been harder, Sam.

00:52:49.760 And I have, my best friends are cops.

00:52:51.380 Like, I have, in every state, from all these courses that we've taught and all these relationships

00:52:54.680 we've made, and I've never heard the eagerness towards retirement that I'm hearing right now.

00:53:00.400 They say, Henner, this is not, it's not worth it anymore.

00:53:02.700 Now, you may be aware of what happened in New York recently, right?

00:53:06.520 So the New York, they passed this bill that's kind of like unofficially the diaphragm bill

00:53:10.700 where police officers are, and this was signed into law by Mayor de Blasio, and this was the

00:53:16.520 end of last year, and I fought as hard as I could with all my social media and everything

00:53:20.300 I could to try to resist it, but who am I, right?

00:53:22.780 So it happened.

00:53:23.680 But basically, it says here that never sit, kneel, or stand on the subject's torso, never

00:53:28.560 use a chokehold, sorry, never use a chokehold, neck hold, or headlock on the subject of an

00:53:31.960 arrest.

00:53:32.520 Never sit, kneel, or stand on the subject's torso, including the back, chest, or the abdomen.

00:53:37.220 So they've criminalized this, and now what they've said is that if you do one of these

00:53:41.580 things in New York City, right?

00:53:42.920 In New York, if you do one of these things, even if it was unintentional and no harm was

00:53:48.620 caused to the suspect in its use, you may be subject to criminal prosecution, personal

00:53:56.360 criminal liability for the officer.

00:53:59.500 So this is probably one of the worst things that ever happened in law enforcement.

00:54:02.320 Now, in this bill, just to be clear, there were things that were proposed that got passed

00:54:06.280 that were good things, more accountability, better reporting, different things, certain

00:54:10.900 use of X, Y, and Z.

00:54:11.780 So there were other kind of logistical things, but when it comes to use of force, and I'll

00:54:15.620 even go so far to say, hey, the removal of neck restraints, chokeholds, or vascular neck

00:54:19.760 restraints, more accurately described, in law enforcement, there's been a lot of debate

00:54:24.380 about taking those out.

00:54:25.220 New York has gotten rid of it.

00:54:26.160 Several other states are doing the same thing.

00:54:27.460 I'm even okay with that, Sam, because a police officer who does not know how to use the neck

00:54:31.400 restraint, and they only get trained four hours every two years, they're probably going

00:54:34.860 to use it incorrectly.

00:54:35.700 So even though you and I both know that they're very safe and very effective as a method of controlling

00:54:41.040 someone, and in lieu of deadly force, right?

00:54:43.480 So in a situation where you might otherwise have to use your weapon, there have been many

00:54:47.000 lives saved when the officer instead opted for a vascular neck restraint that neutralized

00:54:50.960 the threat, and let's say a firearm malfunction, they used a vascular neck restraint, and the

00:54:55.200 life was saved because of a neck restraint.

00:54:57.840 So there are many more of those cases than the alternative when the suspect ends up dying

00:55:01.840 as a result of a misuse of a neck restraint against the suspect.

00:55:05.220 But the point is, if you're going to get rid of neck restraints, or let's just put them

00:55:08.820 at lethal force or get rid of them altogether, fine.

00:55:11.800 But Sam, what they're doing in New York, they've criminalized the mount position, side mount,

00:55:18.040 side control, back mount.

00:55:19.900 These are now criminalized for the officers.

00:55:23.580 So this happened last year.

00:55:24.680 When this got signed into law, the head instructors, the main guys in NYPD who run the defensive

00:55:30.300 tactics contacted me privately, obviously, right?

00:55:33.420 And I'm not going to share any names, but they said, Henner, we fought as hard as we

00:55:36.780 could to keep the mount and the side mount.

00:55:39.160 And they sent me the internal videos showing what they're no longer allowed to do and the

00:55:43.160 number of retirement requests, right?

00:55:46.420 In New York City last year, I think it broke all records.

00:55:49.020 Like for sure, it broke all the trends, but it was astronomical.

00:55:51.860 And I'm getting DM'd and Twitter'd and message and email from all over New York.

00:55:55.900 People say, Henner, it's lost over here.

00:55:57.880 It's a lost cause.

00:55:58.780 They've disincentivized us from now controlling suspects, violent criminals.

00:56:03.640 We cannot put the knee on their torso.

00:56:05.880 We cannot put our hips.

00:56:06.980 We cannot sit in the most gentle, effective ground control positions.

00:56:10.300 And here's what I said.

00:56:11.120 And as this is all public, I said, New York, watch what's going to happen.

00:56:15.140 By criminalizing the least violent ground control positions that have been used for thousands

00:56:21.380 of years in martial arts of all grappling kinds, by criminalizing the least violent control

00:56:26.180 methods, you are now encouraging and incentivizing the use of more violent control tactics.

00:56:33.260 Taser, baton, firearm, punches, closed fists, blunt object strikes.

00:56:38.120 So these things are now, and there are videos that have happened since this bill has been

00:56:44.000 written into law.

00:56:45.120 Videos have come out, Sam, of arrest situations.

00:56:47.580 And I did a breakdown recently, you may have seen it, of this exact dilemma now.

00:56:51.260 You have four cops trying to control one person by their limbs because they're not allowed

00:56:55.640 to put any contact on the torso and controlling someone by the limbs.

00:56:59.300 Imagine trying to get a little kid who doesn't want to go to bed and trying to drag them by

00:57:03.160 their arm or leg and they're twisting and turning.

00:57:05.300 Now they're violently twisting and turning.

00:57:06.840 You can't just grab their torso, pick them up and walk them to the bedroom and put them

00:57:10.540 to sleep.

00:57:11.340 Do you understand?

00:57:12.040 So as a result, in this particular video that I'm talking about, the cops start punching

00:57:15.880 the guy excessively.

00:57:17.820 And then the video goes viral because of the excessive punches.

00:57:21.080 But the general public sees that video and they don't realize the reason all those punches

00:57:25.680 were necessary was because the officers were legally prevented from using more gentle mount

00:57:32.220 controls.

00:57:32.960 It wouldn't have required five officers if they knew basic mount.

00:57:36.140 So anyways, New York is pretty much a lost cause in terms of arrest and control tactics.

00:57:42.780 And the police department would agree with this.

00:57:44.460 So this is all, this is city council.

00:57:46.720 This is like, you know, representatives, right?

00:57:50.000 Of the city who have never been in a fight, wear a suit, are not cops, don't know what it's

00:57:54.300 like to hold someone down who doesn't want to be arrested, who are making these laws.

00:57:57.520 And then Mayor de Blasio wrote it into law.

00:57:59.340 And like I said, it's been a downhill slope from there.

00:58:01.440 And I rest in peace, New York City, you know, and sadly, sadly, the civilians think this

00:58:06.520 is good for them, but it's not.

00:58:08.400 I would much rather an officer.

00:58:10.300 What's that?

00:58:11.040 It's a disaster.

00:58:12.340 I mean, it could not be worse.

00:58:14.240 It could not be worse.

00:58:15.080 It was an accident.

00:58:15.880 It messed up.

00:58:16.380 And now, because New York City is a lost cause, I'm setting my sights on being very vocal

00:58:20.960 about how disastrous and how counterproductive this new bill has become and warning other

00:58:27.280 states that if they engage in this same type of reform, where you just strip officers from

00:58:33.580 these nonviolent control tactics as really a gross overreaction to their aversion to neck

00:58:40.140 restraints, really, it kind of all started with neck restraints, right?

00:58:42.360 Oh, neck restraints.

00:58:43.020 And then, you know, things happen and there's videos go viral.

00:58:45.080 And they say, okay, let's not do anything, even touch their torso because the diaphragm,

00:58:50.180 they can't breathe as easily when you're laying on their hips. 0.73

00:58:52.180 And as a result of that, you know, it's all downhill from there and it's only going to

00:58:56.000 get worse.

00:58:56.480 It's only going to get worse before it gets better.

00:58:58.100 And in New York, it's going to get way worse.

00:58:59.920 And then eventually, they're going to have to undo certain elements of this new law in

00:59:04.940 order for the police to be able to do their jobs again.

00:59:07.280 But I'm just hoping that more states don't follow suit because you could quickly have a

00:59:10.560 situation where it's way worse than we currently see.

00:59:13.500 So this is literally, and this is my whole point, Sam, is that writing a bill into law

00:59:19.500 that says you cannot use the mount and many other things, but let's just keep it basic

00:59:24.040 because that's part of it.

00:59:24.840 You cannot sit on someone's abdomen in a mount.

00:59:27.280 Writing that bill into law is done by a group of people who mistakenly believe, Sam, that the

00:59:33.640 cops were sufficiently trained in empty hand control tactics to begin with.

00:59:39.380 That's the whole point.

00:59:41.740 If you believed that every one of these cops in New York was trained like Navy SEALs, and

00:59:46.800 even with that sufficient amount of training, that excessive amount of training, they performed

00:59:51.300 as poorly as they do.

00:59:52.640 It's understandable that you say, let's take away all their ground control skills because

00:59:58.000 clearly they're abusing them.

00:59:59.200 But if you start from the premise that cops get four hours in New York City is probably

01:00:03.120 way worse every year or two, then the starting position has to be, wait a minute, let's give

01:00:08.480 them better training before that we take away their least violent options. 0.96

01:00:13.340 Yeah, perhaps we should say something to make this a little clearer to people who are probably

01:00:19.760 no more informed than many of the people who passed this law about the details here.

01:00:24.720 But I mean, you imagine someone's violently attacking you, right?

01:00:29.360 Somebody who is at least as strong as you are, and your job now is to stop them from

01:00:37.540 overwhelming you or getting away and hurting a member of the public.

01:00:41.240 So you have to figure out how to bring this person under control.

01:00:45.500 This is the situation we're putting cops in.

01:00:48.560 And they have various tools.

01:00:50.560 They have, you know, a gun on their belts.

01:00:52.280 They've got a baton, they've got a taser, and then they've got whatever hand-to-hand

01:00:57.320 skills that they have or have been given.

01:01:00.120 They've got their own strength and athleticism, such as it might be.

01:01:04.960 And some of these tools are, by definition, synonymous with death or significant injury,

01:01:13.640 right?

01:01:13.820 The way you bring someone under control by hitting them in the head repeatedly is, as I

01:01:21.360 said before, synonymous with neurological injury, right?

01:01:24.960 If you punch them in the face and knock them out, that is... 0.71

01:01:28.180 And they fall down and they hit their head on the concrete. 1.00

01:01:30.280 Exactly.

01:01:31.020 You're not in a ring that is designed for the safety of the contestants.

01:01:36.120 You're on the street.

01:01:37.340 And if you tase them, they rather often, if the taser works, I mean, tasers are by no means

01:01:44.640 foolproof, but when it works, this person is also falling to the concrete, not under their

01:01:52.880 own control, and very likely hitting their head, right?

01:01:57.100 So all of this is extremely risky in terms of the continuum of force, and far riskier than

01:02:06.380 any of these things that have been outlawed.

01:02:08.800 And in fact, everything that was just outlawed in New York is practiced in every single jiu-jitsu

01:02:15.480 school on earth, every single day, ad nauseum.

01:02:20.240 And I'm sure that if you survey...

01:02:23.740 And no death.

01:02:24.320 And nobody dies from that, from this practice, in an under-controlled setting, when you actually

01:02:28.480 know what you're doing.

01:02:29.520 So I want to ask you, Hanner, the most provocative of these maneuvers is what we call the rear

01:02:37.040 naked choke or the neck restraint.

01:02:39.380 And so this is when a person grabs someone, reaches around their throat with their arm

01:02:47.240 from behind, and the elbow, the crook of the elbow is now aligned kind of with the subject's

01:02:52.880 chin, and they are squeezing, it's called, as you say, it's somewhat erroneously called

01:02:59.080 a choke, it's actually a vascular blood restraint, you're cutting off the circulation through the

01:03:04.620 carotid arteries, and after about six seconds or so, the person loses consciousness.

01:03:10.440 How dangerous has that proved to be over the course of, I mean, given what you know, and

01:03:16.200 I mean, you now have tons of experience teaching this, you have how many, I don't know, how many

01:03:21.460 schools affiliated with your school who teach this.

01:03:24.600 There are thousands upon thousands of martial artists training in this, and they all experience

01:03:30.600 both sides of this choke, I'm sure someone somewhere has died, because someone somewhere

01:03:36.780 has died from virtually everything, but what is your perception of the risk and the variables

01:03:43.080 that govern risk with this move?

01:03:46.360 Listen, you know, like you said, every single day, millions and millions of vascular neck

01:03:51.940 restraints are applied at the, you know, hundreds of thousands of schools around the world

01:03:56.760 that teach jiu-jitsu, like there's, this is, this is, this is the safety, from a statistical

01:04:01.340 point, you know, you could not, I mean, I don't know, 0.0000001%, I don't know, it doesn't

01:04:06.500 mean that it hasn't happened, of a reported death in practice, right, by someone who knows

01:04:11.020 what they're doing, who has any degree of training with this, right, this is, normally

01:04:14.660 we hear of death when it's used egregiously by someone who doesn't know when to let go,

01:04:18.980 or they squeeze a neck restraint, someone passes out, and then you maintain pressure on

01:04:22.820 an unconscious person's body or neck, you maintain additional vascular pressure for, in many cases,

01:04:28.500 what needs to be about 30 to 60 seconds after loss of consciousness is reached, so the amount

01:04:33.300 of pressure and the duration of time that is necessary for someone to, to die from the

01:04:38.720 use of a vascular neck restraint is, is substantial.

01:04:41.700 Now, of course, when you consider drug, alcohol use, other medical conditions, those can play

01:04:46.260 a part, but by and large, the, the technique has been deemed safe, right, in, in all the studies

01:04:51.800 that have taken place, and just anecdotally, throughout the country, and throughout the

01:04:55.420 world, in regular practice of martial arts, these are used all the time, so, you know,

01:04:59.400 but I think that pointing back to the New York situation, Sam, and you were kind of alluding

01:05:03.520 to the, the, the violence of taser, a baton, right, these blunt force, and that's kind of

01:05:09.180 just, for the listeners out there, what you have to understand is that all the techniques

01:05:13.040 that were outlawed are, you know, monumentally safer than what is being encouraged now for

01:05:20.200 these officers, because they can't do it, and you started with the example that you

01:05:22.860 were kind of painting of a violent criminal, just committed a crime, wants to flee the

01:05:26.440 scene, or wants to assault an officer, now you have, the officer has the burden of not

01:05:30.300 just neutralizing that person and, and, and taking them into custody for their own protection

01:05:34.440 and for the protection of the public, the officer has the burden of doing that without

01:05:38.420 applying any body-to-body contact on their torso, chest, back, or abdomen.

01:05:44.580 Listen, this, this is unheard of, there is no way, there's no way.

01:05:48.600 It literally rules out, if you have, if you have someone who's violently resisting, if you

01:05:54.140 imagine all the scenarios where you're able to take them down to the, to the ground and

01:05:59.380 control them so that they can be arrested, and you, you add to that picture the criterion

01:06:05.920 that you have to do this without hurting them.

01:06:09.560 You have basically ruled that out in virtually every case, the moment you, you make those

01:06:16.720 specific moves illegal.

01:06:19.340 Yes, absolutely.

01:06:20.280 There is no way to do it without hurting them.

01:06:21.980 There is no way to do it without, without, exactly.

01:06:23.980 And that's the, that's the whole, that's the kind of the, the, the, the entire, the confusion

01:06:28.240 here is that they did something, Sam, hoping to lower the level of force that officers would

01:06:35.340 use on suspects, not realizing that now because of the impossible equation you've painted for

01:06:40.480 this officer of having to subdue someone without using their body to do it, they can only use

01:06:45.700 their hands, but a violent criminal cannot be held down by someone's two hands if you cannot

01:06:50.600 lay on their body.

01:06:51.720 And I'm telling you this as a black belt, lifelong practitioner, if you, Sam, did not want to

01:06:57.060 be taken into custody and someone said, Henner, take Sam and put handcuffs on him right now.

01:07:01.440 But the condition was, I'm not allowed to lay on your body, Sam.

01:07:04.840 I could not put, I could not put any pressure on your torso, chest, back, or abdomen.

01:07:09.240 Literally, my body could not lay on your body.

01:07:11.300 If that was the requirement, I do not feel capable of subduing you and I'm a master.

01:07:19.020 And I'm not saying you like Sam, the blue belt. 0.98

01:07:20.580 I'm talking about Sam, the regular civilian, a regular person, just a man or woman who does 0.99

01:07:24.920 not want to be taken into custody, I would not be able to do that by myself.

01:07:28.880 I would need four or five other officers to hold one on each limb and then a third person

01:07:33.520 punching you in the face. 0.64

01:07:34.620 So we've literally created a fifth person punching you in the face. 0.98

01:07:37.720 We've literally created an impossible equation where a single officer is no longer capable,

01:07:43.740 even if that officer, Sam, is well-trained.

01:07:47.200 Even if they had a black belt in jujitsu, a single officer to take a single suspect into custody

01:07:51.740 who is determined not to go is very, very unlikely to pan out in a way that is both suitable

01:07:59.700 or acceptable to the general public, acceptable to the police force, and acceptable to the

01:08:04.140 civilian in that they hopefully don't have to die while they're getting arrested.

01:08:07.800 But you're forcing the cop to escalate their level of force unnecessarily because you took

01:08:12.820 away their lowest and most effective control options.

01:08:15.420 It's unbelievable, Sam.

01:08:16.580 It's literally the worst thing I've ever seen from a police training and tactics change across

01:08:22.680 law enforcement, across the whole country.

01:08:24.240 It's the most negative backwards step that has ever been taken.

01:08:27.940 Now, again, the rest of the bill had some good things.

01:08:30.040 It's the diaphragm contact aspect that literally throws away all judo techniques, all wrestling

01:08:36.540 controls, all jujitsu standard controls that have been used for thousands of years and

01:08:40.720 effectively and safely to control.

01:08:42.180 Forget the neck restraints.

01:08:43.060 I'm talking about just laying on someone, like two kids wrestling in the backyard.

01:08:46.580 Or like, you know what I'm saying?

01:08:47.980 Like we do every single day here in practice.

01:08:49.660 So it's frustrating.

01:08:51.140 It's sad.

01:08:51.540 And like I said, it's such a lost cause.

01:08:53.080 And it's so sad for those officers who are now basically, literally, it was already hard

01:08:58.800 enough.

01:08:59.600 Arresting someone on four hours a year of jujitsu training was already hard enough.

01:09:03.480 Now saying, hey, not only are you going to get that minimum four hours, but you're not

01:09:06.800 allowed to touch their torso with any part of your body or you're going to be criminalized.

01:09:10.440 You're basically saying either be ready to use lethal force to stop the subject from fleeing

01:09:15.660 the scene, right?

01:09:16.520 Because at the end of the day, you have to arrest the person or simply don't arrest them.

01:09:21.220 Actually, this may be of interest only to martial arts nerds, but perhaps we can say something

01:09:27.020 about why the often touted pain compliance kind of wrist locks are so hard to use when

01:09:36.900 you have a violently resisting opponent.

01:09:39.820 Why can't you just teach a bunch of wrist locks and get past all of this?

01:09:43.960 Sure.

01:09:44.620 Yeah.

01:09:45.220 Any pain compliance technique requires healthy neurological processing to take place, right?

01:09:52.480 So the second that someone is either drugged, intoxicated, or high on adrenaline in any way,

01:09:57.860 shape, or form where their pain tolerance, right, as we know, goes through the roof, then

01:10:01.720 a wrist lock simply doesn't have the desired effect.

01:10:04.320 And often instead of pain compliance, you get what's called pain defiance, right?

01:10:08.680 Which is a threshold because imagine if I was like, imagine if I grabbed one of your fingers,

01:10:12.200 Sam, and I started bending it backwards.

01:10:13.880 And I got to a point where it was uncomfortable and your logical brain said, yeah, he's going

01:10:17.080 to keep going.

01:10:17.480 I better listen to him.

01:10:18.760 Imagine if instead of stopping at that point, I just tripled my level of force on your finger.

01:10:24.120 Do you think that your processing would be, okay, I really better listen now?

01:10:27.280 Or would you suddenly be tricked?

01:10:30.380 Your brain would essentially be flicked into survival, amygdala hijack, and you would literally

01:10:35.340 do anything on the earth to free yourself from that about-to-be-broken limb.

01:10:42.120 You're about to lose a finger or a broken joint.

01:10:44.220 And the same is true for an elbow or a shoulder.

01:10:46.740 You can go pain compliance while they're healthily processing the encounter.

01:10:49.960 But the second the person's drugged or alcohol or their pain tolerance simply goes through the

01:10:53.540 roof because of any one of these outside variables, you simply cannot do it.

01:10:56.940 So my point is, what officers need to do is they need to control body-to-body control

01:11:02.920 for the first 100 seconds is what we teach.

01:11:06.640 Not knee on the neck, not neck restraint.

01:11:09.040 That would be crazy, right?

01:11:09.960 I'm talking about basic side mount, basic mount control, basic back mount, 100 seconds

01:11:15.460 to literally slow everything down.

01:11:22.480 And to teach the- remember UFC 1 when Hoist fought Art Jimmerson, Sam, when he mounted

01:11:27.400 on Art Jimmerson and Art, excuse me, was trying to bump, twist, and push him off, and Art could

01:11:31.700 not escape Hoist's mount.

01:11:33.180 And as a result of several seconds going by where Art could not escape his mount, this

01:11:37.300 is one of his opponents in UFC 1, Art just tapped out.

01:11:41.340 Yeah, yeah.

01:11:42.240 What happened there?

01:11:42.980 There was no submission.

01:11:44.160 There was no knockout.

01:11:45.760 Why did Art tap out?

01:11:47.140 Because he couldn't get off his back.

01:11:48.860 Like, he was trying as hard as he could, and he was ineffective at escaping from a superior

01:11:53.620 supine back mount position.

01:11:56.240 Hoist just laid on him.

01:11:57.340 And at that point, Art was able to process that since he could not get out with all of

01:12:01.560 his might, that it was only going to be downhill from there on out.

01:12:05.160 It wasn't going to go well.

01:12:06.160 Yeah.

01:12:06.300 It wasn't going to go well.

01:12:06.880 So that right there, Sam, is the number one recommended law enforcement arrest and control

01:12:12.440 strategy.

01:12:12.900 Get the suspect on their back, not on their belly, on their back, and hold them there

01:12:17.760 for 100 seconds with body-to-body control once the suspect has a chance to process that

01:12:23.660 they are not going to get out at will.

01:12:26.200 A whole processing happens in their mind, and they go, wow, I'm not going to get out.

01:12:30.200 I can't get a hold of their gun because they have good underhooks and weapon retention.

01:12:33.300 I'm not getting this officer off.

01:12:34.640 Other officers are coming.

01:12:36.220 At this point, they can kind of go into the process of, maybe I should comply and just get

01:12:39.760 this over with.

01:12:40.320 But as long as there's hope of escape, there is going to be savagery from the suspect.

01:12:45.380 And what I'm saying is to kill the hope, you have to use the 100-second rule and maintain

01:12:49.320 that top position on a supine suspect until help gets there or until their spirit is sufficiently

01:12:54.420 broken that they will comply with the pain compliance technique or simply verbal commands,

01:12:58.800 which often work once the spirit is broken and they realize that they're really not going

01:13:02.560 to get away.

01:13:03.320 It's a whole different human that you're dealing with.

01:13:05.700 So to answer your question, it's not as easy as it looks.

01:13:08.540 And if you can't control body-to-body supine for 100 seconds, if that's not legal, there

01:13:14.360 is no guarantee that you're going to get this person into custody off wrists, twists, fingers,

01:13:18.380 joints, shoulders, elbows.

01:13:19.820 Someone will let their arm break and then free themselves from this situation because they're

01:13:23.700 high on some drug.

01:13:25.200 It really is.

01:13:26.140 You have to experience it to understand.

01:13:28.440 But when you have someone who has much better training than you have in grappling, I mean,

01:13:33.820 again, the mystifying thing is that they don't even have to be bigger than you.

01:13:37.920 They could be smaller than you.

01:13:39.460 But if there's simply a very significant mismatch between how you know how to wrestle based

01:13:46.760 on your apish intuitions and the person who's holding you down, it is like there is something

01:13:53.540 supernatural about it.

01:13:55.360 I mean, it is like your adversary, in this case the cop, is functioning with a different

01:14:01.080 physics.

01:14:02.500 Your attempt to get up is completely hopeless.

01:14:04.800 And only sufficient training can create that kind of disparity, and that is the thing you

01:14:12.340 need to ensure that people get arrested in a way that doesn't require a continual escalation

01:14:20.000 of force.

01:14:21.220 So we've been painting a very unhappy picture here, Henner, but I know there are bright spots

01:14:25.720 here.

01:14:26.660 Tell me someplace where this is working better than it is in New York.

01:14:30.440 So I've been advocating, I briefly mentioned it earlier, I've been advocating for quite some

01:14:34.620 time now, that my prescribed solution to this use of force kind of pandemic in America is

01:14:43.780 one hour of jiu-jitsu every week for every officer in America.

01:14:47.920 Boom, done.

01:14:48.740 Logistically, how do we do that?

01:14:49.760 Where does the money come from?

01:14:50.680 Where do they do it?

01:14:51.460 All secondary concerns.

01:14:52.760 I'm just telling you what it needs to be, because I know what one hour a week of jiu-jitsu

01:14:56.920 will create in a regular civilian.

01:14:58.480 I see it all the time.

01:14:59.620 And I know that that's the bare minimum someone needs to be sufficiently trained.

01:15:04.620 To get in a violent altercation and be able to just stay afloat and handle their business

01:15:09.400 and not have the amygdala hijack take over, right?

01:15:12.200 Like that's, to me, that's the key.

01:15:14.100 And of course, that presumes after several months or, you know, six months to a year of

01:15:17.360 one hour a week, someone will be at a place where if they get into a fight, they're going

01:15:21.320 to be able to at least stay focused, stay calm, manage the distance, manage the damage,

01:15:25.260 control the subject.

01:15:26.020 And at the very least, until help arrives, which in many cases, all they need to do, right?

01:15:30.440 It's for an officer.

01:15:31.520 So that being said, I've been touting this loud enough for long enough that one of our

01:15:35.820 agencies that we've been working with since 2009, Marietta Police Department in Marietta,

01:15:41.160 Georgia, one of these agencies who's a GST certified.

01:15:44.260 So they've had their instructor certified in our week-long certification.

01:15:47.420 But like every other agency we work with, they get cut off when they go home and go to teach

01:15:52.720 it.

01:15:52.880 They're only allowed to teach for four hours a year, right?

01:15:55.020 So Marietta, Georgia has been GST for about 11 years and two years ago, almost exactly

01:16:01.240 April 1st, two years ago, what happened was prior to that, a video went viral in Marietta

01:16:06.880 that showcased the officers who, again, are getting their bare minimum annual training of

01:16:13.220 GST and a few other tactics.

01:16:15.040 These officers aggressively striking a subject on the floor in a restaurant.

01:16:18.860 The video goes viral, right?

01:16:20.180 For all the wrong reasons.

01:16:21.120 And at that point, Marietta command staff ultimately say, hey, listen, we're getting,

01:16:26.340 we get upset at these officers for performing so poorly, but we're not giving them any better

01:16:29.900 options.

01:16:30.580 So it's on us to give them better options.

01:16:32.920 And four hours a year clearly isn't cutting it.

01:16:35.340 Look at the performance and look at this viral video.

01:16:37.280 So that was kind of the tipping point there for them.

01:16:40.500 So what happened?

01:16:42.580 Marietta did something unconventional, unexpected, unheard of, and revolutionary all at the same

01:16:49.820 time.

01:16:50.120 They did a test and I'm going to say his name.

01:16:53.220 Major Jake King was kind of the conductor, the man who pulled this whole thing together,

01:16:58.400 right?

01:16:58.680 The conductor of the orchestra here in terms of the Marietta transformation.

01:17:02.180 And he deserves a lot of credit for taking this risk because he believed in jujitsu.

01:17:06.060 Here was the test, Sam.

01:17:08.220 They were going to say, okay, let's get rookies because they've heard this.

01:17:11.600 They've heard this proposition of jujitsu regular weekly practice.

01:17:14.460 So they said, let's do it with the rookies.

01:17:15.700 Rookies in their police academy, the new hires, we can pretty much have them do whatever we

01:17:19.240 want.

01:17:19.820 And they have to do it because it's kind of like the guinea pigs, right?

01:17:22.640 So they said, let's do these rookies and let's get them to do jujitsu, mandatory jujitsu,

01:17:27.260 at a local, carefully vetted, civilian-owned jujitsu school where they go to regular classes

01:17:33.580 of jujitsu with civilians in the classes.

01:17:35.620 Let's get them their uniforms and let's mandate that they go. 0.99

01:17:38.560 I think it was twice a week was the mandated period for the five months while they're in

01:17:42.920 the police academy.

01:17:43.780 So they did it.

01:17:45.080 They did it.

01:17:46.680 And five months later, these rookies came out of the police academy training weekly.

01:17:50.440 They have their academy all day.

01:17:51.860 They go train jujitsu at night.

01:17:53.320 They have their uniform.

01:17:54.200 They're regular jujitsu students.

01:17:55.560 And not surprising to anyone who does jujitsu, but seemingly to the shock of everyone else,

01:18:03.140 these officers came out of the academy.

01:18:05.000 These new rookies, brand new cops came out of the academy.

01:18:07.560 And the number one word they used, this is reported to me by Major King, who I've interviewed

01:18:11.400 extensively about what happened in Marietta in terms of the data there.

01:18:15.800 So Major King says, Heno, the number one word on their exit surveys was confidence.

01:18:18.960 These officers left the academy with a greater degree of confidence than ever had happened

01:18:25.360 before in the history of Marietta Police Department.

01:18:28.000 They go into the field, Sam, and they start applying their techniques.

01:18:31.020 And they're taking people down and they're arresting people.

01:18:33.320 And I have, there's actually a video you guys can link to.

01:18:36.340 It's actually at gracieuniversity.com slash reform.

01:18:39.720 Has all of the Marietta data I'm going to share with you now.

01:18:42.000 And the video showing the use by these officers, their jujitsu skills as rookies.

01:18:46.320 So these guys come out of the academy and girls, and they have these use of force incidents.

01:18:50.400 And Sam, they're taking people down.

01:18:52.460 They're mounting on them.

01:18:53.740 They're patting them on the back.

01:18:55.080 They're verbally saying, hey, you're going to be okay.

01:18:57.960 You know, I got you right here.

01:18:59.040 Let's just, you know, we're going to take care of you.

01:19:00.560 There's no cussing.

01:19:01.560 There's no violence.

01:19:02.240 There's no violent punching in the head.

01:19:03.900 All the things we've gotten used to seeing as a country don't exist with these officers

01:19:08.020 who went through the jujitsu program in Marietta.

01:19:11.280 Listen, it was so successful, this program for these rookies,

01:19:13.960 that they decided to open it up to in-service officers, Sam.

01:19:17.800 And this is where everything changed.

01:19:19.920 The agency has 145 officers.

01:19:22.480 Of the 145, 95 of the officers opted into the free jujitsu program

01:19:28.600 sponsored and paid for by the agency at the civilian-owned school

01:19:33.560 where they're allowed to go train weekly for free to them,

01:19:37.420 paid for by the agency as official regular jujitsu students.

01:19:40.560 And this went down.

01:19:42.600 95 officers opted in, 50 officers did not.

01:19:45.980 So we have a control group against which we can really compare

01:19:49.560 the performance of the BJJ-trained officers

01:19:52.200 and the non-BJJ officers in the agency.

01:19:55.400 And the data is in.

01:19:56.800 It's been 18 months since the program has been initiated

01:20:01.020 for the department permitting this type of use.

01:20:03.420 And we have numbers.

01:20:05.340 And these numbers are, right,

01:20:07.040 these are published by Marietta Police Department.

01:20:08.700 And like I said, they're on our website at the URL I gave.

01:20:11.420 And you can link to it.

01:20:12.740 It's unbelievable.

01:20:14.020 So let me just run through some of the key points here.

01:20:15.800 And you can ask questions.

01:20:16.540 And we can dig a little bit on what the implications are

01:20:18.260 for the rest of the country.

01:20:19.300 Because this is the most promising data

01:20:21.360 in the history of law enforcement arrest and control tactics.

01:20:26.420 So training injuries.

01:20:28.340 Because, of course, the number one concern

01:20:29.560 for a lot of these police departments are,

01:20:31.000 well, how injured would cops get

01:20:32.440 if they're doing jujitsu all the time?

01:20:33.520 What if they get injured while they're training?

01:20:34.720 In 2,600 classes in the 18-month period

01:20:38.800 by 95 officers, one injury in the dojo.

01:20:43.240 A single injury.

01:20:44.120 A nose got cracked on a takedown attempt.

01:20:45.700 That was it.

01:20:46.500 And this, remember, be clear.

01:20:47.640 These 95 officers, some of them are young rookies.

01:20:50.000 Many of them are old and out of shape

01:20:52.160 and have never seen the inside of the gym in their lives

01:20:54.240 for the last however many years.

01:20:56.160 And they're now starting jujitsu for the first time.

01:20:58.380 So we're talking about a large population here

01:21:00.280 of officers of all types of demographics

01:21:03.040 and all types of shapes and sizes.

01:21:05.680 Taser deployments reduced by 23%

01:21:07.940 in the population that does jujitsu.

01:21:10.980 So 77% in the non-BJJ group,

01:21:13.980 54% taser deployments in the use of,

01:21:17.260 in the BJJ trained group,

01:21:19.260 85% of which were to stop a foot pursuit.

01:21:21.840 So they aren't using the tasers, right?

01:21:23.940 In all cases, they aren't using the tasers

01:21:25.820 in the fight because they can't handle it.

01:21:27.760 They're using it when someone's running away

01:21:29.080 and they're chasing them

01:21:30.220 and they have to stop the person from fleeing the scene.

01:21:32.540 Use of force injuries to officers.

01:21:34.560 So this is actually in the field now.

01:21:36.980 Injuries to officers.

01:21:39.000 In the 18 months prior to the instituting of this program,

01:21:42.060 there were 29 injuries to officers in the field,

01:21:46.420 18 months prior.

01:21:47.240 In the 18 months after the program,

01:21:49.060 there were 15 injuries to officers in the field.

01:21:52.620 That's a 48% reduction department-wide of officer injuries.

01:21:57.720 Now here's the kicker, Sam.

01:22:00.140 Zero of the reported injuries

01:22:02.740 were in the BJJ trained population.

01:22:07.860 Zero.

01:22:08.560 So 15 injuries in the four,

01:22:11.100 in the 50 people that had not done jujitsu,

01:22:14.160 that have not started this program of weekly practice.

01:22:16.640 Sam, this makes the most sense in the world

01:22:19.020 because a fight is a very scary and dangerous thing

01:22:22.460 to someone who does not do this regularly.

01:22:24.700 But to someone who does jujitsu weekly,

01:22:26.620 like you or I,

01:22:27.920 getting into a fight,

01:22:28.880 we might bump our elbow or bruise our knee,

01:22:30.720 but this does not turn into

01:22:31.960 a serious six months off-duty workers' comp claim

01:22:35.960 because I simply,

01:22:37.700 taking someone down and holding them down

01:22:38.880 is what I do every day in practice.

01:22:40.660 And here's what's wild.

01:22:41.560 That's exactly what is being said by these rookies.

01:22:44.400 One of them took a suspect down.

01:22:45.520 It was actually a mental patient.

01:22:46.420 They showed me the video.

01:22:47.160 It's on our website there.

01:22:48.600 They take down a mental patient,

01:22:50.520 perfect body fold takedown,

01:22:52.180 mount, back mount,

01:22:53.060 patting him on the back,

01:22:53.840 telling him he's going to be okay.

01:22:54.980 When they got up,

01:22:55.720 the sergeant said,

01:22:56.700 hey, you know, to the rookie,

01:22:58.040 hey, that was one of the best takedowns I've ever seen.

01:23:01.300 And the rookie says,

01:23:02.000 oh no, that was nothing.

01:23:02.920 I've done that a hundred times.

01:23:05.340 So when these officers are doing this

01:23:07.680 on regular everyday practice,

01:23:08.940 it just makes sense that this is what they do.

01:23:10.880 There's no problem.

01:23:12.260 Now here's what the department loved.

01:23:13.700 The department-wide 48% reduction overall

01:23:17.900 in injuries to officers resulted in $66,752

01:23:24.840 saved on workman's comp claims.

01:23:28.400 That never happened.

01:23:30.260 Yeah.

01:23:30.500 So the agency saved money

01:23:32.800 and that's $40,000 more than they spent

01:23:36.140 on the training for these officers

01:23:38.060 in that 18-month period.

01:23:39.740 So the net, right,

01:23:41.520 the net savings for the agency

01:23:43.000 is over $40,000

01:23:44.800 because of the workman's comp claims

01:23:47.780 that never happened

01:23:48.620 when cops simply don't get hurt

01:23:50.320 in their uses of force in the field.

01:23:52.520 So then I asked Major King.

01:23:53.940 I said, Major King,

01:23:54.680 there's one more number that I have to hear.

01:23:56.700 What about injuries to suspects?

01:23:59.040 That's what the world wants to know.

01:24:00.700 Okay, the cops are safer,

01:24:01.900 but what about the people

01:24:02.620 that they're taking down

01:24:04.380 and controlling in these positions?

01:24:06.680 When we talk about serious injuries to suspects,

01:24:08.980 classified as hospitalization.

01:24:10.600 If someone did not need to be cleared at a hospital,

01:24:12.220 then they didn't get classified,

01:24:13.600 but hospitalization was well-documented

01:24:15.220 and when a use of force involved an officer

01:24:18.640 that trained BJJ,

01:24:21.260 the suspect was 53% less likely

01:24:25.820 to sustain serious injury

01:24:28.500 that required hospitalization.

01:24:30.420 Sam, more than twice as likely

01:24:32.020 to get hospitalized

01:24:32.840 if you get arrested by someone

01:24:34.300 who does not do weekly jujitsu.

01:24:36.180 This was the most important number for me.

01:24:38.820 This is the one.

01:24:39.820 If we could reduce the hospitalization by half,

01:24:42.220 or really the serious injuries

01:24:43.480 by half countrywide

01:24:45.680 for every officer in America,

01:24:47.640 what kind of service will we be doing?

01:24:49.760 Half.

01:24:51.080 50% progress.

01:24:53.720 So these are the numbers

01:24:55.700 that I've been dreaming of, Sam,

01:24:56.860 for 25 years.

01:24:58.380 This is it.

01:24:59.380 And I could never do it

01:25:00.300 because I'm not an officer

01:25:01.120 in charge of a department

01:25:02.340 where I could mandate this type of training.

01:25:04.180 I've been advocating for it

01:25:05.340 for 20 plus years, right?

01:25:07.260 But I could not mandate it.

01:25:08.580 So Major King,

01:25:10.060 having been someone

01:25:10.840 who's been around jujitsu,

01:25:12.020 believes in jujitsu,

01:25:13.340 right,

01:25:13.500 is on team jujitsu,

01:25:15.420 bit the bullet and said,

01:25:16.440 man, we just got to do this.

01:25:17.640 Let's see what happens with these rookies.

01:25:19.020 It happened.

01:25:19.720 It was so successful,

01:25:20.700 they rolled it out to in-service.

01:25:22.060 It was so successful in-service,

01:25:23.660 we've published this data on our website.

01:25:25.720 And now Major King

01:25:27.380 is being contacted

01:25:28.180 by dozens of police departments

01:25:29.600 every single week

01:25:30.700 from all over the world

01:25:31.700 because people are seeing

01:25:32.920 the data that we published.

01:25:33.820 And they're asking for his assistance

01:25:35.640 to set up similar programs.

01:25:37.160 And to be clear,

01:25:38.080 the program that we're advocating for now

01:25:39.760 is a partnership

01:25:41.060 between a private,

01:25:43.400 civilian-owned jujitsu,

01:25:45.180 carefully vetted,

01:25:46.140 civilian-owned jujitsu school

01:25:48.080 and a local police department

01:25:50.560 with any number of officers

01:25:51.900 who can send those officers

01:25:53.640 for this supplementary training,

01:25:55.780 weekly training at the agency.

01:25:57.460 And then the question is,

01:25:58.860 who pays for it? 0.99

01:26:00.140 In Marietta,

01:26:01.460 they're using currently

01:26:02.800 asset forfeiture funds,

01:26:06.020 which are federally controlled.

01:26:08.300 But the agency puts in

01:26:09.260 a grant request

01:26:10.160 or a request

01:26:11.940 to the federal government

01:26:13.160 saying,

01:26:13.480 hey, we have these forfeited assets here.

01:26:15.860 Can we use this for training

01:26:17.040 and or equipment?

01:26:18.480 And the answer is yes.

01:26:19.280 You can use forfeited assets

01:26:20.540 for training or equipment.

01:26:21.860 Okay, we want to use it

01:26:22.520 for this supplementary

01:26:23.280 jujitsu training program.

01:26:24.620 And they permit it.

01:26:25.880 So this is happening

01:26:26.460 at many departments

01:26:27.260 around the country.

01:26:28.580 And now Georgia specifically

01:26:30.520 has approached Major King,

01:26:32.240 who, like I said,

01:26:33.020 orchestrated all of this.

01:26:34.220 And they basically

01:26:35.020 are now talking about

01:26:35.840 state grants funding

01:26:37.560 for departments

01:26:38.420 that want to institute

01:26:39.600 similar programs.

01:26:40.860 So the Georgia Senate

01:26:41.600 is now discussing

01:26:42.500 state grant funding

01:26:44.080 for agencies

01:26:44.900 who want to institute

01:26:45.620 a supplementary

01:26:46.460 jujitsu program.

01:26:47.800 Literally, Sam,

01:26:48.700 this is the best thing

01:26:49.640 that has ever happened

01:26:50.440 to police training ever

01:26:51.920 is that they're now

01:26:53.420 contemplating

01:26:53.980 these private partnerships

01:26:55.080 with local jujitsu schools,

01:26:56.660 right,

01:26:57.440 to make sure these officers

01:26:58.460 get the training

01:26:59.100 that they need.

01:26:59.700 Because the agency

01:27:00.580 could never provide

01:27:01.260 this logistically,

01:27:02.480 the only reason

01:27:03.220 why there's a chance

01:27:03.820 that this becomes

01:27:04.280 a nationwide success

01:27:06.040 is because it's profitable

01:27:08.800 for the agency.

01:27:11.100 Yeah.

01:27:11.260 They're saving

01:27:12.140 over $40,000

01:27:13.120 in 18 months

01:27:13.860 on this one small,

01:27:15.000 150 officer agency alone.

01:27:17.000 Imagine the much larger agencies,

01:27:18.600 how much they're going to save

01:27:19.360 on workman's comp claims

01:27:20.360 from having their officers

01:27:21.800 better trained.

01:27:22.420 We always knew this.

01:27:23.320 We always hypothesized this.

01:27:24.960 But now we have

01:27:26.100 the actual,

01:27:26.840 the numbers,

01:27:27.820 and the numbers

01:27:28.260 simply don't lie.

01:27:29.740 Well, New York,

01:27:30.880 if you're listening,

01:27:31.700 you've got some of the best

01:27:32.580 jujitsu schools in the country.

01:27:34.600 I guess it's too late

01:27:35.260 to walk back from the brink.

01:27:36.400 You're already over the brink,

01:27:37.320 but you can,

01:27:37.800 you can climb back up the cliff.

01:27:40.340 Henner,

01:27:40.560 is there anything else

01:27:41.120 we haven't covered

01:27:41.780 that you think needs to

01:27:43.660 get into people's heads here?

01:27:45.280 Yeah, I just,

01:27:45.800 I'm so excited.

01:27:46.560 Yeah.

01:27:47.260 I'm glad we did such a good job

01:27:48.660 kind of setting up

01:27:49.480 the current state

01:27:50.780 of why police force

01:27:52.420 is such a difficulty

01:27:53.280 here in America.

01:27:54.680 And then,

01:27:55.860 and then segueing into

01:27:56.980 this very promising

01:27:58.960 Marietta case study.

01:28:00.360 And what's wild is

01:28:01.500 as soon as we publish

01:28:02.360 the data,

01:28:02.900 we've had,

01:28:03.680 I think to date,

01:28:04.500 we've already had

01:28:05.060 over 50 departments,

01:28:06.280 Sam,

01:28:06.520 contact us.

01:28:07.540 Nice.

01:28:08.060 Looking for,

01:28:08.940 hey,

01:28:09.140 we want to start

01:28:09.840 this partnership.

01:28:10.380 And we just signed

01:28:11.420 two contracts.

01:28:12.860 Roswell Police Department

01:28:13.960 is being finalized

01:28:14.760 this week.

01:28:15.320 We just signed

01:28:16.100 Peachtree City,

01:28:17.000 Georgia.

01:28:18.000 You know,

01:28:18.420 again,

01:28:18.920 these are actual contracts

01:28:20.300 between the agency,

01:28:22.300 Gracie University

01:28:22.940 Headquarters,

01:28:23.520 and the certified

01:28:24.480 Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

01:28:25.580 Training Center

01:28:26.220 in the region

01:28:26.920 to where they now

01:28:28.280 send their officers

01:28:29.140 and,

01:28:29.680 you know,

01:28:30.560 these officers can go

01:28:31.220 train whenever they want.

01:28:32.340 And it's,

01:28:32.660 like I said,

01:28:33.080 paid for by the agency.

01:28:34.520 The officers love it.

01:28:36.300 And the buy-in,

01:28:37.040 actually,

01:28:37.600 Peachtree City,

01:28:38.260 I was talking to

01:28:38.940 Lieutenant Chris there

01:28:40.300 and he said,

01:28:41.400 Henner,

01:28:41.600 we sent out the email

01:28:42.460 announcing our partnership

01:28:43.700 with the certified

01:28:44.860 Jiu-Jitsu Training Center

01:28:45.840 there.

01:28:46.700 And I didn't expect

01:28:48.020 the buy-in to be

01:28:48.540 as solid as it was.

01:28:49.420 The yeses,

01:28:49.900 the enthusiastic yeses,

01:28:51.360 it's almost like

01:28:52.080 they're dying of thirst,

01:28:53.800 Sam,

01:28:54.360 these officers.

01:28:55.200 They all know

01:28:55.820 they're under-trained.

01:28:56.760 They all know

01:28:57.280 they're being put in

01:28:57.860 life-and-death situations

01:28:58.720 every day.

01:28:59.780 On a cop's budget,

01:29:01.080 a lot of them

01:29:01.440 can't afford,

01:29:02.140 you know,

01:29:02.400 $200 a month

01:29:03.320 Jiu-Jitsu classes.

01:29:04.800 But the way we worked it out

01:29:06.060 with the agencies

01:29:06.760 is the agencies

01:29:07.820 only paying $10

01:29:08.860 per officer

01:29:10.360 per class.

01:29:11.700 And they're invoiced

01:29:12.640 at the end of the month.

01:29:13.800 So they only pay

01:29:14.740 for the officers

01:29:15.220 that show up.

01:29:16.400 And on that model,

01:29:18.280 they're always going

01:29:19.060 to save more

01:29:19.700 and reduce

01:29:20.960 workman's comp claims

01:29:21.960 than they are going to pay

01:29:23.100 for the training.

01:29:23.820 So it'll always be

01:29:24.660 a net profit equation

01:29:26.480 for the agency.

01:29:27.820 And listen,

01:29:28.200 we're not trying to get rich

01:29:29.160 off of these partnerships

01:29:30.160 with the community.

01:29:31.120 I'm just trying to be part

01:29:32.160 of the solution

01:29:32.880 that makes training available

01:29:35.140 at a cost

01:29:35.720 that is acceptable

01:29:37.120 for the city,

01:29:38.620 ultimately,

01:29:38.960 who's paying for it

01:29:39.640 and the department.

01:29:41.040 But the challenge

01:29:41.940 we're having right now

01:29:42.700 is we have more inquiries

01:29:44.140 in locations

01:29:45.620 than we have schools

01:29:47.260 to meet the demand.

01:29:50.600 It's a crazy time.

01:29:52.160 So for me,

01:29:52.980 it's just so remarkable

01:29:54.640 that this is even

01:29:55.260 being contemplated

01:29:56.060 that these government

01:29:57.040 departments,

01:29:58.200 essentially,

01:29:58.460 these institutions

01:29:58.980 of government employees

01:30:00.200 and police officers

01:30:01.220 are being allowed

01:30:02.700 to partner

01:30:03.200 with civilian-owned

01:30:04.160 martial arts schools.

01:30:05.020 This never happened.

01:30:05.660 You never had a police department

01:30:06.860 partner with a taekwondo school.

01:30:09.060 So it never happened before.

01:30:10.680 So it just speaks

01:30:11.320 to A, jiu-jitsu's effectiveness

01:30:12.840 and really remarkable

01:30:13.880 effectiveness in combat,

01:30:15.820 but B,

01:30:16.840 a new wave

01:30:17.880 in police training

01:30:18.740 which has never before

01:30:20.820 even been contemplated

01:30:22.180 before Marietta

01:30:23.080 took the risk

01:30:23.680 and made it happen.

01:30:24.520 So I'm just so excited

01:30:26.380 that we now have the data

01:30:27.340 and that the world

01:30:27.920 can now see that

01:30:28.660 what we've always believed

01:30:29.720 was true,

01:30:30.180 that a cop is less risk,

01:30:31.800 a police officer,

01:30:32.700 and we didn't even speak

01:30:33.280 about the reduction

01:30:34.060 in lawsuits, right?

01:30:35.220 Because when you have

01:30:35.920 less injuries to suspects,

01:30:37.640 you have a reduction

01:30:38.360 in excessive force allegations

01:30:39.840 and subsequent lawsuits.

01:30:41.460 Those savings

01:30:42.060 have not even been

01:30:42.740 factored into, right?

01:30:44.420 And then, of course,

01:30:45.040 the community relations.

01:30:46.480 The community relations nightmare

01:30:48.260 of having a video go viral

01:30:49.820 where Marietta, for example,

01:30:51.640 used their excessive force

01:30:52.560 in the restaurant

01:30:53.060 on that video

01:30:53.580 that I spoke about.

01:30:54.940 Those videos stop happening

01:30:56.540 when cops are well-trained.

01:30:58.080 They don't go viral anymore.

01:30:59.660 And then a department

01:31:00.780 can start to rebuild

01:31:01.920 its relationship

01:31:02.820 with the community

01:31:03.540 because they're at

01:31:04.420 an all-time low right now.

01:31:06.320 And I think ultimately

01:31:07.300 that's all the police want

01:31:08.660 and that's all

01:31:09.180 the community wants

01:31:10.040 is the community wants

01:31:11.120 to believe in law enforcement

01:31:12.040 and law enforcement

01:31:13.200 wants to perform

01:31:14.120 for the community

01:31:15.220 at a standard

01:31:16.280 that meets their expectation.

01:31:18.140 Yeah.

01:31:18.720 Is there a path

01:31:20.900 for jiu-jitsu schools

01:31:22.940 that have no direct affiliation

01:31:24.960 with the Gracie Academy

01:31:26.460 to get certified

01:31:28.180 in this specific

01:31:30.280 police-appropriate training?

01:31:32.300 I mean, because obviously,

01:31:33.360 you know,

01:31:33.640 there are schools

01:31:34.860 that have slightly different

01:31:36.700 training philosophies.

01:31:38.000 They're more geared

01:31:38.580 towards sport

01:31:39.420 than self-defense.

01:31:40.560 And yet,

01:31:41.680 you know,

01:31:41.960 many of them

01:31:42.800 could very quickly

01:31:43.840 learn and adopt

01:31:45.420 the most effective

01:31:47.260 training here.

01:31:48.820 And that's kind of

01:31:49.200 what's happening.

01:31:49.720 I'm glad you pointed it out

01:31:50.480 because when these

01:31:50.980 agencies are contacting us

01:31:53.200 from territories

01:31:53.940 where we don't have

01:31:54.820 a Gracie University

01:31:55.800 certified training center,

01:31:57.680 what we do,

01:31:58.860 they say,

01:31:59.180 hey,

01:31:59.300 we want to partner

01:31:59.900 with you,

01:32:00.220 Gracie University.

01:32:00.760 There's no school here.

01:32:02.040 We are now going out

01:32:03.200 and communicating

01:32:04.100 with the jiu-jitsu schools

01:32:05.280 in the community there

01:32:05.980 and saying,

01:32:06.300 hey,

01:32:06.420 who wants to go

01:32:07.220 through the process

01:32:08.020 to become

01:32:09.080 the certified

01:32:10.140 training center

01:32:10.840 that we could then

01:32:12.140 partner with the agency

01:32:13.600 for a potentially

01:32:14.480 lifelong relationship,

01:32:16.040 right?

01:32:16.180 These are not short-term.

01:32:17.540 These are,

01:32:18.200 once successful,

01:32:18.940 I expect these

01:32:19.620 partnerships with the agencies

01:32:21.240 to be decade-longs

01:32:22.360 if not indefinite,

01:32:23.300 right?

01:32:23.420 There's no end-term

01:32:24.340 to success.

01:32:25.420 Marietta,

01:32:25.960 that's never going to stop.

01:32:27.200 They're never going to

01:32:27.660 pull that program

01:32:28.540 because look how much

01:32:29.200 they're saving.

01:32:30.080 Look how many,

01:32:30.780 you know,

01:32:31.040 the lower level of force.

01:32:32.940 The injuries to officers

01:32:33.760 have gone down substantially.

01:32:35.200 So all the data points to

01:32:36.580 we're never going to end this,

01:32:37.700 right?

01:32:37.940 And it's not cost-efficient

01:32:38.960 for them to do this

01:32:39.960 in the agency.

01:32:40.900 So outsourcing it

01:32:41.660 just makes perfect sense.

01:32:43.600 But the point is,

01:32:44.740 so we're having to go

01:32:45.460 to territories

01:32:46.060 and find schools

01:32:47.160 like you're proposing

01:32:48.240 to say,

01:32:48.880 hey,

01:32:49.040 do you guys want to go

01:32:49.560 through the process?

01:32:50.540 And the answer is yes.

01:32:51.900 Gracie University

01:32:52.840 Certified Training Centers,

01:32:54.340 it's not an affiliation program

01:32:56.260 like you think of,

01:32:57.560 Sam,

01:32:57.760 in traditional martial arts

01:32:59.040 where,

01:32:59.380 you know,

01:32:59.840 we're your master

01:33:00.660 and,

01:33:01.560 you know,

01:33:01.800 you have to have our banner

01:33:03.020 on your storefront.

01:33:04.260 That's not what

01:33:05.100 a Certified Training Center is.

01:33:06.780 Once you undergo

01:33:07.440 the certification process

01:33:08.500 to teach the courses

01:33:09.800 that would make you

01:33:10.800 a suitable partner

01:33:11.520 for a law enforcement agency,

01:33:13.760 you still can be affiliated

01:33:15.320 with any other organization

01:33:16.640 and,

01:33:17.640 or any other master instructor.

01:33:19.480 Becoming a Certified Training Center,

01:33:21.080 it just means

01:33:21.640 that we can recommend you

01:33:22.760 because the operating system

01:33:24.440 for the programs

01:33:25.660 that these officers

01:33:27.080 would be exposed to

01:33:28.140 are vetted

01:33:29.840 and monitored

01:33:31.120 and quality controlled

01:33:32.020 by Gracie University headquarters.

01:33:34.240 So the answer is yes.

01:33:35.480 A school can keep

01:33:36.240 their affiliation

01:33:36.900 and still become

01:33:37.840 a Certified Gracie

01:33:39.540 Jiu-Jitsu Training Center

01:33:40.540 that would make them

01:33:41.480 a suitable partner.

01:33:43.280 And for any Jiu-Jitsu instructors

01:33:44.920 or people out there

01:33:46.060 who are interested

01:33:46.460 in learning more about that,

01:33:47.860 you can go to

01:33:48.820 gracieinstructor.com.

01:33:51.060 And that's the thing

01:33:51.660 is that,

01:33:52.200 you know,

01:33:52.560 we're having,

01:33:53.600 like I said,

01:33:54.200 we just can't meet

01:33:54.860 the demand right now

01:33:55.560 with how many agencies

01:33:56.600 are coming on board.

01:33:58.160 And it's just a uniquely

01:34:00.160 exciting time

01:34:01.240 for Jiu-Jitsu,

01:34:02.740 for law enforcement,

01:34:03.940 for the Gracie family

01:34:04.940 who's been kind of fighting

01:34:05.780 for this for 30 years

01:34:06.640 in America.

01:34:07.620 Like we're literally

01:34:08.620 right now

01:34:09.840 at the beginning

01:34:10.620 of a new era

01:34:12.340 in law enforcement training

01:34:13.400 and it's all centered

01:34:14.380 around Jiu-Jitsu.

01:34:15.240 So Jiu-Jitsu

01:34:16.280 was already hot

01:34:16.940 because of the UFC,

01:34:18.020 right?

01:34:18.220 Because it's just

01:34:18.640 this growing sport

01:34:19.320 and it's really effective.

01:34:20.580 To know

01:34:21.260 that the direction

01:34:22.640 American policing

01:34:23.920 is going

01:34:24.460 is towards

01:34:25.480 weekly Jiu-Jitsu

01:34:26.660 for every officer

01:34:27.400 in America.

01:34:28.300 If you've been hesitant,

01:34:29.820 even if you're a civilian

01:34:30.660 who's been questioning

01:34:31.500 the effectiveness

01:34:32.100 of Jiu-Jitsu,

01:34:33.140 know that

01:34:33.660 it's the time

01:34:34.860 is now to learn it

01:34:35.500 just as a practitioner.

01:34:37.100 But if you're someone

01:34:37.740 who already does Jiu-Jitsu,

01:34:39.140 who's on the fence

01:34:39.780 of saying,

01:34:40.140 man,

01:34:40.220 I want to become

01:34:40.640 an instructor potentially,

01:34:42.180 it's the right time

01:34:43.320 to get into the industry.

01:34:44.500 I mean,

01:34:44.720 of course,

01:34:45.160 barring COVID restrictions

01:34:46.140 right now,

01:34:46.540 it's the right time

01:34:47.400 to get into Jiu-Jitsu

01:34:48.380 because the opportunity

01:34:49.760 to partner

01:34:50.220 with a government institution

01:34:51.120 had never existed

01:34:51.940 and now it does

01:34:53.100 and you can learn more

01:34:54.560 about every step

01:34:55.260 that it takes

01:34:55.700 on that process

01:34:56.560 at GracieInstructor.com

01:34:58.520 and what's really cool

01:35:00.620 is that we also

01:35:01.100 create the opportunity

01:35:01.800 for someone

01:35:02.180 to reserve a territory

01:35:03.140 for up to 12 months

01:35:04.220 while they undergo

01:35:05.540 the training

01:35:06.160 they need

01:35:07.240 in order to become

01:35:08.160 a certified training center.

01:35:09.320 They can make sure

01:35:09.980 that their territory

01:35:10.740 remains reserved

01:35:11.560 and that gives them

01:35:12.700 the certainty

01:35:13.100 that while they're

01:35:13.760 moving towards

01:35:14.640 this objective

01:35:15.680 of certification

01:35:16.280 to meet these

01:35:16.960 quality standards,

01:35:18.340 they won't have

01:35:19.500 the territory

01:35:20.000 taken from them

01:35:20.680 because we only allow

01:35:21.380 one certified

01:35:22.280 Gracie Training Center

01:35:23.500 per five-mile radius

01:35:25.420 in the country.

01:35:26.480 So if that territory

01:35:27.200 gets taken by someone else,

01:35:28.260 you're pretty much

01:35:28.700 boxed out.

01:35:29.960 So that's the one thing

01:35:30.920 I would say

01:35:31.300 is that check out

01:35:32.140 that territory reservation

01:35:33.060 program and all the other

01:35:34.560 details regarding certification

01:35:35.760 and you don't have

01:35:36.380 to be a black belt.

01:35:37.300 Someone can be a blue belt, 0.99

01:35:38.740 follow our systems

01:35:39.720 and be able to teach

01:35:41.040 other beginners,

01:35:42.640 relatively speaking,

01:35:43.920 the art

01:35:44.580 and create an amazing

01:35:46.080 learning opportunity.

01:35:47.240 So blue belts, 1.00

01:35:48.500 purple belts,

01:35:48.900 brown belts,

01:35:49.300 black belts,

01:35:49.740 someone who's just

01:35:50.240 getting into jiu-jitsu

01:35:50.720 but fell in love with it

01:35:51.600 and wants to teach it

01:35:52.340 and make their passion

01:35:53.020 their profession,

01:35:54.220 now is the time

01:35:55.020 to join Team Jiu-Jitsu

01:35:56.300 and we've created

01:35:57.200 a perfect path

01:35:57.920 with that territory

01:35:58.900 reservation opportunity

01:35:59.760 and this is what we do.

01:36:00.940 We open schools

01:36:01.640 and we service the community

01:36:02.520 and now we're partnering

01:36:03.980 with these police departments

01:36:05.380 so it's never been

01:36:06.680 so exciting

01:36:07.200 and all thanks to Marietta

01:36:08.420 but it had to get this bad

01:36:10.520 for this change

01:36:11.180 to happen, Sam,

01:36:11.980 because I'll tell you what,

01:36:12.940 law enforcement in America,

01:36:14.220 it's a very slow-moving

01:36:15.760 institution, right?

01:36:17.380 The whole idea

01:36:18.000 of law enforcement,

01:36:18.640 they don't want

01:36:19.380 to change anything

01:36:20.280 so in that sense

01:36:22.560 all the negativity,

01:36:23.580 all the things

01:36:23.920 that have gone wrong

01:36:24.760 in terms of just

01:36:25.980 the public outcry,

01:36:27.500 the excessive uses of force, 0.98

01:36:28.940 it sucks that it happened

01:36:29.880 but I'm telling you

01:36:30.760 the country is changing,

01:36:32.520 law enforcement is changing

01:36:33.680 as a result

01:36:34.640 of that outcry.

01:36:36.140 It's fantastic

01:36:36.740 and we really,

01:36:37.760 as you point out,

01:36:39.300 we're at the bottom

01:36:40.600 of the valley here.

01:36:41.660 I mean we're literally

01:36:42.420 having this conversation

01:36:43.400 during the Derek Chauvin trial

01:36:46.060 and I don't know

01:36:47.720 if you feel the same

01:36:49.560 apprehension that I do

01:36:51.680 around the outcome here

01:36:53.080 but it's easy to see

01:36:55.140 that if some significant justice

01:36:57.420 isn't meted out to him

01:36:58.620 that the nation

01:37:01.820 could erupt over it

01:37:03.140 both for understandable reasons

01:37:04.960 and for reasons

01:37:05.600 that are perhaps in part

01:37:07.880 based on the kind

01:37:09.640 of misunderstandings

01:37:10.920 of police conduct

01:37:13.080 and police training

01:37:14.400 that all the facts

01:37:16.560 aren't in yet

01:37:17.180 and I certainly

01:37:19.140 wouldn't want to say

01:37:19.800 anything exculpatory

01:37:21.760 about Chauvin himself

01:37:22.800 at this point

01:37:23.360 but it's,

01:37:24.600 yeah,

01:37:25.760 I mean it would be

01:37:26.900 quite dramatic

01:37:27.560 if based on some policy

01:37:30.180 that, you know,

01:37:31.420 as yet unexpressed

01:37:32.740 at trial

01:37:33.220 we learn that

01:37:34.560 he's not actually

01:37:35.900 going to serve

01:37:37.260 any significant time.

01:37:38.800 Perhaps we'll close

01:37:39.460 on this real world

01:37:41.280 instance here.

01:37:41.940 How do you view

01:37:43.200 the prospects

01:37:44.040 of a resolution

01:37:45.840 to that case?

01:37:47.760 Listen,

01:37:48.320 yeah,

01:37:48.940 I've been asked

01:37:49.820 and I did a small interview

01:37:51.560 the other day

01:37:51.900 regarding,

01:37:52.440 and they asked me

01:37:53.120 in the realm

01:37:55.200 that I am an expert,

01:37:56.260 right,

01:37:56.440 which is martial arts

01:37:57.420 and I'm a lot of experience

01:37:59.460 with neck restraints

01:38:00.240 and the question

01:38:01.200 was posed to me

01:38:01.760 quite simply,

01:38:02.620 is it possible

01:38:03.280 that the knee

01:38:04.280 on the neck,

01:38:05.280 right,

01:38:05.440 since that's kind of

01:38:05.940 the central topic

01:38:06.840 of discussion

01:38:07.320 there in this thing,

01:38:08.780 is it possible

01:38:09.360 that the knee

01:38:09.780 on the neck

01:38:10.220 caused

01:38:11.380 his death,

01:38:12.500 right?

01:38:12.860 There are many

01:38:13.300 other variables

01:38:13.960 but to what extent

01:38:15.240 was that possible?

01:38:15.960 In my professional opinion,

01:38:19.300 jiu-jitsu founded,

01:38:20.260 again,

01:38:20.440 I'm not the medical examiner,

01:38:21.480 I don't know how much

01:38:22.200 drugs he had

01:38:23.300 in his body

01:38:23.740 and his system,

01:38:24.640 but purely speaking

01:38:25.560 from a jiu-jitsu

01:38:27.020 vascular neck restraint

01:38:27.980 perspective,

01:38:28.840 it is absolutely

01:38:29.920 possible

01:38:31.000 that placing the knee

01:38:32.500 on the neck

01:38:33.300 for the extended period

01:38:34.000 of time

01:38:34.360 that was placed

01:38:35.560 by Mr. Chauvin there

01:38:36.960 could cause

01:38:37.820 enough obstruction

01:38:40.440 to the blood flow

01:38:41.260 to cause someone

01:38:42.060 to lose consciousness

01:38:42.900 and then

01:38:44.240 the continued pressure

01:38:46.260 after unconsciousness

01:38:48.180 was met

01:38:48.600 could absolutely,

01:38:50.500 like any neck restraint

01:38:51.340 that is held

01:38:52.540 after someone

01:38:53.340 loses consciousness,

01:38:54.600 could lead

01:38:55.140 to someone's death.

01:38:56.500 So,

01:38:57.080 I do believe

01:38:57.780 it could have played a part,

01:38:58.820 I don't know

01:38:59.240 what other factors

01:38:59.780 were at play,

01:39:00.280 I don't have all the details,

01:39:01.720 but whether or not

01:39:02.580 he's convicted

01:39:04.440 of that

01:39:05.360 or exonerated

01:39:06.560 for some reason

01:39:07.120 that we don't yet know

01:39:07.860 is yet to be determined,

01:39:09.360 but my belief

01:39:10.640 is that absolutely

01:39:11.700 knowing what I know

01:39:12.980 and people say,

01:39:13.540 oh, because it's on

01:39:13.940 the back of the neck,

01:39:14.760 it wasn't a neck restraint,

01:39:16.060 it wasn't plugging

01:39:16.500 the carotids,

01:39:17.100 nope.

01:39:18.180 You can plug the carotid

01:39:19.500 indirectly

01:39:20.460 by placing a knee

01:39:21.480 on the back

01:39:21.760 of someone's neck

01:39:22.340 and the front part

01:39:23.480 of their neck

01:39:23.960 being so flushly

01:39:25.180 compressed

01:39:26.200 into the ground,

01:39:27.120 into the pavement,

01:39:27.820 which was the case there,

01:39:28.900 that that compression

01:39:30.060 happens,

01:39:31.040 you know,

01:39:31.440 indirectly

01:39:32.580 and I'm very aware

01:39:33.940 of many techniques

01:39:34.560 even in jiu-jitsu

01:39:35.220 where there's a very

01:39:35.840 indirect application

01:39:36.660 of pressure

01:39:37.100 that is still

01:39:38.200 very effective

01:39:38.760 at creating

01:39:39.360 the neck restraint

01:39:40.360 and the loss of conscience

01:39:41.240 or the submission

01:39:41.740 in that case

01:39:42.240 or loss of consciousness

01:39:43.280 if submission

01:39:44.020 isn't achieved

01:39:44.940 or someone doesn't tap out,

01:39:46.460 so I absolutely believe

01:39:47.940 that it was possible,

01:39:48.860 so we'll see what happens

01:39:49.660 and I agree

01:39:50.260 that there may be

01:39:50.800 if he's not convicted

01:39:53.340 that there will be

01:39:54.020 an eruption

01:39:54.500 that may even exceed

01:39:56.520 what we saw previously

01:39:57.360 in all of this,

01:39:58.440 so.

01:39:58.800 Yeah.

01:39:59.800 Well,

01:40:00.580 as always,

01:40:01.200 Henner,

01:40:01.400 thank you for doing

01:40:02.040 what you're doing.

01:40:02.580 You're an inspiration

01:40:03.320 and one of the things

01:40:05.620 I look forward to

01:40:06.400 getting to the full reboot

01:40:09.640 of civilization

01:40:10.220 after COVID

01:40:11.080 is the ability

01:40:12.500 to train

01:40:13.120 without concern,

01:40:15.560 so see you

01:40:16.500 on the other side

01:40:17.060 of everyone

01:40:18.500 getting vaccinated.

01:40:20.240 I appreciate,

01:40:20.780 man,

01:40:21.000 yeah,

01:40:21.200 definitely looking forward

01:40:21.920 to that

01:40:22.240 and I appreciate you,

01:40:24.020 you know,

01:40:24.300 allowing your platform

01:40:25.580 to be used

01:40:26.220 to shed some light

01:40:27.240 and if nothing else,

01:40:28.260 you know,

01:40:28.580 I hope what we accomplish

01:40:29.620 today is that

01:40:30.240 the general public

01:40:31.000 can look at this

01:40:31.560 and go,

01:40:31.900 wow,

01:40:32.440 they are,

01:40:32.980 police officers

01:40:33.560 are asked to do more

01:40:34.740 with less

01:40:35.960 than we ever imagined,

01:40:37.380 right?

01:40:37.600 If the general public

01:40:38.280 simply knows

01:40:39.000 how undertrained

01:40:39.980 police officers are,

01:40:41.240 they'll at least

01:40:41.800 second guess themselves

01:40:43.260 before judging

01:40:43.960 an excessive use of force

01:40:45.060 and know that

01:40:46.280 it wasn't a function

01:40:47.060 of an abusive use of power

01:40:48.280 as much as it was

01:40:49.000 a function of

01:40:49.660 simply under preparation

01:40:51.620 for a very high intense

01:40:53.760 and dangerous situation

01:40:54.760 that these cops

01:40:55.220 are being thrown into

01:40:55.780 every single day

01:40:56.420 and I think that

01:40:57.460 law enforcement officers

01:40:58.280 for all they do,

01:40:59.380 I think they deserve that.

01:41:00.680 They deserve the consideration

01:41:01.460 that look,

01:41:02.100 they're at least

01:41:02.460 not being given the tools

01:41:03.340 and then,

01:41:04.400 you know,

01:41:05.080 that's the bare minimum

01:41:06.660 and in best case scenario,

01:41:08.900 let's keep chugging along

01:41:09.800 until every police officer

01:41:11.360 is just a regular

01:41:13.520 practitioner of the arts.

01:41:16.000 It just makes sense.

01:41:16.960 If what you do

01:41:17.600 is deal with violent

01:41:18.320 physical altercations

01:41:19.120 every day,

01:41:19.920 you should be an expert

01:41:21.040 in violent physical altercations.

01:41:22.860 Stands to reason.

01:41:24.000 Yeah, well,

01:41:24.540 so needless to say,

01:41:25.760 I consider this a PSA

01:41:27.720 and we will link

01:41:29.320 to the videos

01:41:30.440 that you recommend.

01:41:31.420 There was one video

01:41:32.240 of a botched arrest

01:41:34.360 in a McDonald's,

01:41:35.560 if I recall,

01:41:36.340 with a suspect.

01:41:36.940 Yeah, the taser.

01:41:37.580 Yeah, the guy's

01:41:38.060 getting tasered.

01:41:39.040 And if ever you want to see

01:41:41.060 the kind of training

01:41:42.520 cops do not have,

01:41:44.360 that's a great instance.

01:41:45.720 So anyway,

01:41:46.060 we'll link to that

01:41:46.840 and thanks again, Henner.

01:41:49.000 My pleasure.

01:41:49.480 Thank you, Sam.

01:41:50.100 Have a good one.

Making Sense - Sam Harris - April 16, 2021

#246 — Police Training & Police Misconduct

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