Making Sense - Sam Harris - #250 — Broken Conversations

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.860 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.900 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this,

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00:00:52.280 No housekeeping today,

00:01:04.940 apart from reminding you that I have released a new podcast series with Ricky Gervais.

00:01:10.280 That can be found over at AbsolutelyMental.com.

00:01:15.500 And people really seem to like it.

00:01:18.640 And it was a lot of fun to make, so enjoy.

00:01:20.780 Anyway, okay.

00:01:23.420 Today, I'm speaking with Jesse Singel.

00:01:27.920 Jesse's the former editor of New York Magazine's The Science of Us.

00:01:33.200 He has written for The New York Times, The Atlantic, Slate, The Boston Globe,

00:01:39.300 The Daily Beast, and other outlets.

00:01:41.380 And he has his own podcast with Katie Herzog,

00:01:45.520 Blocked and Reported, which I recommend.

00:01:48.480 And he has a new book, The Quick Fix,

00:01:51.660 Why Fad Psychology Can't Cure Our Social Ills.

00:01:55.540 We really don't discuss the book much in this podcast.

00:01:59.360 Electing instead to touch a wide variety of controversial issues,

00:02:03.320 from racial inequality to trans activism to the conflict in the Middle East,

00:02:09.500 we really make a fair amount of trouble for ourselves.

00:02:13.440 Anyway, I hope you enjoy it.

00:02:15.560 Now I bring you Jesse Singel.

00:02:23.440 I am here with Jesse Singel.

00:02:25.600 Jesse, thanks for joining me.

00:02:27.140 Hey, thanks for having me on, Sam.

00:02:28.880 I will have properly introduced you, but to remind people,

00:02:31.560 you've got a new book, The Quick Fix,

00:02:34.480 Why Fad Psychology Can't Cure Our Social Ills.

00:02:37.340 And you have a very enjoyable podcast,

00:02:41.000 Blocked and Reported, which you do with Katie Herzog.

00:02:43.740 And you have a Substack newsletter,

00:02:46.180 which is also a great read.

00:02:48.740 So I guess there are many intersecting things here

00:02:51.820 I want to speak about with you.

00:02:53.800 I think one thing we should cover

00:02:56.760 is something that I think you and I both typify at the moment,

00:03:02.500 which is the fragmentation of media

00:03:04.700 and how this relates to all of our other cultural problems.

00:03:09.240 Maybe that's the lens through which we could focus this conversation.

00:03:12.520 But before we jump in,

00:03:14.280 perhaps you can give a potted history of how you got here.

00:03:19.000 How do you think of yourself as a journalist

00:03:21.500 and what has been your career

00:03:24.880 prior to the properties and platforms I just mentioned?

00:03:29.060 Yeah. So in my 20s, I was sort of just mostly a liberal opinion writer.

00:03:34.620 And by mid to late 20s, I became more interested,

00:03:38.140 not just in arguing that people were wrong,

00:03:41.160 but trying to understand the roots of disagreement.

00:03:43.740 And John Haidt was a big influence on me on that front.

00:03:47.820 I ended up getting a public policy master's in a program

00:03:51.400 with a pretty heavy psychology component for a public policy program.

00:03:55.980 But yeah, I was sitting in a coffee shop on a fellowship in Berlin

00:03:59.640 trying to figure out what the hell to do when I got back to the States.

00:04:02.540 And I saw New York Magazine was launching a whole behavioral science vertical.

00:04:07.460 So I was the first editor of what was called Science of Us.

00:04:11.680 And that sort of brought me more into that stuff,

00:04:16.000 just writing and editing stories about human behavior every day.

00:04:19.480 And along the way,

00:04:20.800 I learned that a massive amount of social psychology

00:04:24.260 is probably complete bunk, which was disappointing.

00:04:26.960 But the bright side is it provided good fodder for a book.

00:04:32.500 And yeah, I'm condensing a lot of stuff.

00:04:35.360 But I also, I became slightly controversial

00:04:38.160 among some people along the way,

00:04:39.760 which I think probably helped me gain a platform

00:04:42.140 on Substack and Patreon.

00:04:44.200 So now, like an increasing number of journalists,

00:04:47.200 most of my income comes just from direct subscribers,

00:04:51.280 which if you told me that would happen, you know, three years ago,

00:04:54.420 I would have said that probably means there was some sort of catastrophe.

00:04:58.260 And I had to go that way.

00:04:59.580 But it just turned out that's the better approach for a lot of people.

00:05:02.880 Yeah, let's start with the fragmentation of the media.

00:05:06.640 I think this individually, it's clearly the right choice.

00:05:10.680 And as we get into some of the controversies here,

00:05:14.220 I think, well, it'll become explicit

00:05:15.880 why it is the right choice for you.

00:05:18.320 It is certainly the right choice for me.

00:05:20.480 But ultimately, it's a choice that I'm still worried about.

00:05:25.100 It's a choice that doesn't really scale.

00:05:28.060 It's a, I mean, we just cannot devolve

00:05:31.300 into a wilderness of competing Substack, 0.97

00:05:35.680 newsletters, and podcasts, right?

00:05:37.700 I mean, we need institutions.

00:05:38.780 We need a New York Times and other media properties

00:05:43.960 that function by intellectual standards

00:05:47.700 and journalistic standards that we can all rely on and defend.

00:05:52.240 And so this flight to the suburbs of media

00:05:55.800 is troubling even when we're really succeeding at it, right?

00:06:01.080 And it also has a kind of winner-take-all dynamics to it,

00:06:04.040 which is worrisome.

00:06:05.640 Now, it seems to me there are many points of contact

00:06:08.400 between the kinds of things that are so difficult to talk about

00:06:12.200 that are forcing this fragmentation of media

00:06:15.240 and some of what you discuss in your book.

00:06:18.520 I mean, your book kind of rolls over social psychology

00:06:21.240 in a fairly devastating way.

00:06:24.780 And so you take on the self-esteem industry and grit

00:06:29.420 and the implicit association test,

00:06:33.160 which purports to reveal unconscious bias.

00:06:37.300 And there are many other exports from social psychology of late

00:06:42.640 that don't withstand all that scrutiny.

00:06:45.860 And some of them are directly related to some of the problems

00:06:50.840 with wokeism and cancel culture that we'll talk about.

00:06:54.400 I guess as I just have a first step in this direction,

00:06:58.420 what is it that you are most concerned about now

00:07:03.100 with respect to the state of media

00:07:05.660 and the career of a journalist

00:07:07.980 and the bad incentives that seem to be reliably pushing us

00:07:15.040 in the direction of being less and less competent

00:07:18.200 to talk about socially polarizing issues?

00:07:21.780 Yeah, I think there's two issues here that sort of overlap

00:07:26.980 but are useful to separate out.

00:07:28.820 One is just the general collapse of funding models for media

00:07:33.500 and for newspapers in particular.

00:07:35.620 So, you know, in this conversation, we have shared interests.

00:07:39.560 We're probably not going to talk a lot about this,

00:07:41.400 but we should keep in mind that America as a country

00:07:44.760 has an interest in us knowing what's going on

00:07:47.340 in the Baltimore City Council or the Nashua courts.

00:07:51.540 All these areas of life where unless there is a local newspaper

00:07:55.260 that is well-funded, they will just not be covered

00:07:57.600 and there'll be no incentive for, you know,

00:08:00.220 people to not be corrupt, basically.

00:08:02.420 That's just gone.

00:08:03.720 So the bigger story here that sometimes gets obscured

00:08:06.240 and I'm sure I've helped to obscure it

00:08:08.660 because I have my own interests,

00:08:09.620 is just a steamroller devastating the American media ecosystem.

00:08:13.800 So that's one thing.

00:08:15.680 Then there's what's going on at the elite outlets,

00:08:18.260 at the New York Times or the Atlantic or the Voxosphere.

00:08:21.540 And there, I think in part because when your livelihood

00:08:27.600 feels more precarious and like it's collapsing

00:08:30.480 and then you have Trump,

00:08:32.480 I think all of this has combined to create

00:08:34.540 a mainstream media ecosystem that, as you said,

00:08:37.240 is having a harder and harder time talking seriously

00:08:39.960 about complicated issues.

00:08:42.020 And I think it's leading to a lot of groupthink

00:08:44.220 and a lot of work that ranges,

00:08:46.580 you know, some of it's just unreadable

00:08:47.980 but fundamentally harmless.

00:08:49.440 It's just bad X-Men analysis or whatever.

00:08:52.240 And then there's stuff that I think causes some harm

00:08:54.160 because it's actively misleading on important policy issues.

00:08:57.720 Yeah, well, it relates.

00:08:59.040 I guess this is a direct point of contact with your book.

00:09:01.560 It relates to concerns about inequality

00:09:03.840 and meritocracy at this point.

00:09:06.240 And, you know, much of the stuff in social psychology

00:09:11.040 that hasn't held up very well

00:09:12.880 relates to this notion that inequality

00:09:16.680 can be fixed in ways that would be wonderful if true

00:09:23.780 but like boosting people's self-esteem

00:09:26.720 or understanding and improving grit

00:09:31.380 and whether or not that's just a synonym

00:09:33.880 for conscientiousness is another matter.

00:09:37.020 But, you know, whether or not that's the case,

00:09:39.480 whether improving those things,

00:09:40.900 if you could improve them,

00:09:42.060 would really fundamentally address

00:09:44.800 the inequality that is becoming a greater concern

00:09:47.840 and more and more difficult to speak about

00:09:49.780 in so far as it interacts with variables like race.

00:09:52.460 And maybe we should get your own misadventures

00:09:56.820 with cancel culture out of the way

00:09:58.240 before we jump in.

00:09:59.700 So you have, you come trailing a fair amount

00:10:02.460 of cancellation-related debris in your orbit.

00:10:06.220 What has been your experience here?

00:10:09.420 Yeah, we should say attempted cancellation

00:10:10.960 because I think some people rightly point out like, 0.72

00:10:13.860 you know, screw you, you're not canceled. 0.98

00:10:15.960 You make a good living doing this, which is true. 0.98

00:10:18.260 But most of it stems from a 2018 cover story

00:10:21.500 I wrote for The Atlantic about trans youth

00:10:24.760 and about the question of what you should do

00:10:27.400 when a 12- or 13-year-old wants to go on puberty blockers,

00:10:31.300 which pause puberty, or cross-sex hormones,

00:10:34.700 which, you know, if you're a natal male

00:10:36.260 and you go on estrogen,

00:10:37.520 you'll develop some female secondary sex characteristics, 1.00

00:10:40.320 and that is generally not reversible.

00:10:43.360 It's a 13,000-word article.

00:10:45.460 It goes to great lengths to explain

00:10:47.520 why transition is important for people with gender dysphoria

00:10:50.240 because it is.

00:10:51.600 The science on that isn't great

00:10:53.020 because this is a difficult thing to study,

00:10:54.560 but I think it's fairly solid.

00:10:56.400 But it points out that for kids,

00:10:58.740 there are reasons to maybe be a little bit more cautious

00:11:01.040 and to ask more questions.

00:11:02.880 It's not an anti-transition piece.

00:11:05.300 It's not a pro-conversion therapy piece,

00:11:07.300 but it sort of launched a firestorm

00:11:10.300 that's continued to this day.

00:11:11.960 And it sort of occupies so much real estate

00:11:16.620 in the minds of a group of people

00:11:18.900 where, like, whenever,

00:11:20.720 when Donald Trump did something bad in anti-trans,

00:11:23.360 or more recently,

00:11:24.420 these states trying to pass these laws

00:11:27.500 banning transgender healthcare for minors,

00:11:30.300 which I'm very much against,

00:11:31.340 this is, everything just traces back to my article.

00:11:33.380 My article is sort of the cause

00:11:34.720 of all transphobia in the states.

00:11:37.800 And I just think that's a result of people

00:11:39.280 spending too much time online.

00:11:40.740 But it's been a weird experience

00:11:42.900 because if you told me, you know, 15 years ago,

00:11:45.460 I'd be added to, like,

00:11:47.140 a glad-their-enemy list

00:11:48.880 of supposedly transphobic thinkers,

00:11:51.080 that stuff like that would happen to me.

00:11:52.380 I would not have believed you.

00:11:53.980 It's been strange,

00:11:54.860 but at the end of the day,

00:11:56.020 I stand by the article

00:11:56.960 and no one has pointed out any factual flaws in it.

00:12:00.660 In the interest of not creating more hassle for you,

00:12:03.640 it was grammatically ambiguous

00:12:05.200 as to whether or not you were saying

00:12:06.720 you were against the laws

00:12:09.220 against transgender healthcare 1.00

00:12:12.360 or you were against transgender healthcare for minors.

00:12:16.380 Yeah, these laws are attempting to ban 0.96

00:12:18.560 puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for minors.

00:12:21.680 I'm very much against those laws.

00:12:23.500 I think there are serious gaps in the research

00:12:25.400 that I'd be happy to talk about,

00:12:26.740 but saying there's gaps in the research

00:12:28.700 is not the same as saying,

00:12:30.100 I trust the Tennessee legislature

00:12:32.900 to weigh these issues in a way

00:12:34.920 that would take the right out of parents' hands

00:12:37.380 or doctors' hands to weigh that issue

00:12:38.900 in a different way.

00:12:39.580 I think they're terrible laws,

00:12:40.940 and I've tried to be outspoken

00:12:42.720 in my opposition to them.

00:12:44.400 So was there anything truly controversial

00:12:47.440 or that you understand to be,

00:12:49.640 why it would be controversial

00:12:50.920 that you put forward in that piece?

00:12:52.400 Or is this really a case

00:12:56.300 where there's just a fairly concerted effort

00:13:00.660 to demolish you with bad faith

00:13:03.580 misconstruals of what you actually said?

00:13:07.340 A lot of it was bad faith.

00:13:09.480 In some cases,

00:13:10.260 just sort of making up things

00:13:12.000 about the content of the piece.

00:13:13.300 The genuinely, to me,

00:13:15.300 the fair points are,

00:13:16.600 there's two of them.

00:13:17.200 One is,

00:13:18.440 why focus on detransition?

00:13:20.560 People have argued,

00:13:21.740 basically, I talked to some people

00:13:22.920 who transitioned,

00:13:24.260 regretted it,

00:13:24.980 and then said that they felt

00:13:26.200 they were sort of

00:13:27.060 led too quickly down the road

00:13:28.980 of taking hormones

00:13:29.780 or getting surgery

00:13:30.540 by what they saw

00:13:31.880 as incompetent therapists

00:13:33.340 and healthcare providers.

00:13:35.480 You could make a good faith case,

00:13:37.520 like, you know,

00:13:37.960 why focus on that?

00:13:39.440 People often say detransition is rare.

00:13:42.020 We don't know that it's rare

00:13:42.960 in an American context

00:13:44.200 because in the American context,

00:13:46.100 there's basically no binding guidelines

00:13:48.540 for things like mental health assessment

00:13:51.140 and how long,

00:13:52.760 you know,

00:13:53.080 before you get surgery,

00:13:54.440 stuff like that.

00:13:55.360 So that's fair.

00:13:56.100 The other fair critique is

00:13:57.880 I presented sympathetically

00:14:00.040 the idea that some teenagers

00:14:01.820 who have other mental healthcare problems

00:14:04.100 going on

00:14:04.760 might, you know,

00:14:05.980 become convinced

00:14:06.720 through peer influence

00:14:07.640 that really their issues

00:14:09.160 come down to the fact

00:14:09.960 that they're trans

00:14:10.540 and they haven't transitioned yet.

00:14:11.820 I didn't sort of say as myself,

00:14:15.040 I think this is happening,

00:14:16.080 but I presented parents

00:14:18.120 and cases of kids

00:14:19.180 where it does appear

00:14:20.180 to have happened.

00:14:21.080 So the thesis there

00:14:22.560 is that there's a social contagion

00:14:24.060 component to this,

00:14:25.480 the trans phenomenon,

00:14:26.460 which if true

00:14:28.220 would be something

00:14:29.640 that many people

00:14:30.680 would be concerned about.

00:14:32.760 Yeah.

00:14:33.220 And so one thing

00:14:34.800 no one disagrees about

00:14:36.180 is that the number of kids

00:14:37.360 being referred

00:14:37.980 to youth gender centers

00:14:39.480 around the world

00:14:40.160 has skyrocketed.

00:14:41.420 And the question is

00:14:42.620 whether that's just people being

00:14:44.940 the reduction of stigma,

00:14:47.280 more people feel like

00:14:48.740 they can go to their parents

00:14:49.560 and say,

00:14:49.900 I think I'm trans.

00:14:50.700 Can we go to a gender clinic? 1.00

00:14:51.780 Surely that is part of it.

00:14:53.020 The question is

00:14:53.620 whether in some cases

00:14:55.120 it's kids who are,

00:14:56.720 you know,

00:14:57.220 a little bit going through a phase

00:14:58.680 or slightly confused.

00:14:59.780 And I,

00:15:01.000 having sat and talked to kids

00:15:02.580 who that has happened to,

00:15:04.160 I find it impossible

00:15:05.180 to believe

00:15:05.780 that the number of cases

00:15:06.880 of that is zero

00:15:08.200 or close to zero.

00:15:09.400 Now, does that,

00:15:10.080 how much of the increase

00:15:10.860 does that account for?

00:15:11.540 We have no idea.

00:15:13.120 Anyone who claims to know

00:15:14.240 how much of the account

00:15:15.440 the increase is X versus Y

00:15:17.420 I think is lying

00:15:18.660 or is overconfident.

00:15:19.480 We don't know.

00:15:20.180 But I just,

00:15:21.120 there are very compelling

00:15:22.260 anecdotal accounts

00:15:23.280 of kids doing what kids do,

00:15:24.840 which is becoming convinced

00:15:26.080 of something at age 12

00:15:27.360 that they'll look back on

00:15:28.700 at age 20

00:15:29.400 and be like,

00:15:29.940 huh, that's interesting.

00:15:31.120 I thought that.

00:15:32.580 Yeah.

00:15:32.740 And I think the larger problem here

00:15:35.620 is that the conversation

00:15:37.900 around this issue

00:15:38.940 is not a dispassionate,

00:15:42.340 intellectually honest,

00:15:43.920 compassionate approach

00:15:45.840 to get into something

00:15:47.060 like ground truth here.

00:15:48.420 It is a picture of

00:15:50.540 kind of scorched earth activism

00:15:52.960 on the one side

00:15:54.580 and a range of

00:15:57.360 well-intentioned

00:15:59.120 and block-headed approaches

00:16:01.700 to resisting the activism

00:16:03.780 on the other side, right?

00:16:05.380 I would certainly put you

00:16:06.300 in the well-intentioned camp,

00:16:07.960 but then you've got

00:16:08.580 everything that's happening

00:16:09.640 in Trumpistan

00:16:10.320 going on over your shoulder

00:16:11.880 from the point of view

00:16:12.720 of the left.

00:16:14.040 And it's just very difficult

00:16:15.660 to sort out,

00:16:16.320 but it culminates in

00:16:17.920 just culturally bizarre products.

00:16:21.360 Like, I don't know

00:16:21.880 if you recently saw this

00:16:23.060 on Twitter,

00:16:24.500 but Sarah Silverman,

00:16:25.540 the comic who I absolutely love,

00:16:27.820 who's brilliant in so many ways,

00:16:29.400 but she on this topic,

00:16:31.380 I mean, she's clearly drunk

00:16:32.520 the woke Kool-Aid here,

00:16:35.560 and she just attacked 1.00

00:16:38.380 Caitlyn Jenner, of all people,

00:16:40.860 as a transphobe.

00:16:42.740 Did you see this?

00:16:43.940 I did, yeah.

00:16:44.980 I mean, if you're calling

00:16:45.760 Caitlyn Jenner transphobic,

00:16:48.020 at some point you need

00:16:49.080 to check your math along the way

00:16:51.580 and wonder what cul-de-sac

00:16:54.880 you have argued yourself into.

00:16:56.740 Well, but I mean,

00:16:57.600 I could do you one better than that

00:16:58.700 because something like that,

00:16:59.660 you can understand why

00:17:00.540 because she's just trying to stay,

00:17:02.000 she's been criticized in the past

00:17:03.580 for offensive humor,

00:17:05.400 but like CNN in a news article,

00:17:08.100 not an opinion article,

00:17:09.100 a news article recently said

00:17:10.380 there's, quote,

00:17:11.320 no consensus method

00:17:13.040 for assigning sex at birth

00:17:14.460 with a newborn.

00:17:16.860 Like, no, does it,

00:17:18.480 does it help trans people

00:17:20.320 to say that?

00:17:21.060 Does anyone think that's true

00:17:22.640 or that it helps anybody

00:17:24.060 to think?

00:17:24.980 Does anyone, it's just very,

00:17:25.840 That sex is a total mystery 1.00

00:17:26.820 at birth, yeah.

00:17:28.380 Yes, yeah.

00:17:29.180 And this is the kind of thing,

00:17:30.240 where people often jump

00:17:32.500 to the Soviet comparison

00:17:34.440 or the cultural revolution comparison.

00:17:36.400 I obviously don't think we're there.

00:17:37.920 I do think it's completely bizarre

00:17:39.520 that we're at a place

00:17:40.320 where CNN in a news article

00:17:42.280 would try to tell its readers,

00:17:44.260 we just don't know

00:17:44.860 what sex babies are. 0.53

00:17:45.760 Who knows?

00:17:46.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:48.180 Well, so this is an issue

00:17:49.820 that I basically have not touched.

00:17:52.080 I mean, this is, you know,

00:17:52.780 what we've just said.

00:17:54.500 Apologies in advance, Sam.

00:17:55.600 Now is as much

00:17:56.880 as I've ever said about it.

00:17:58.220 I guess I should probably

00:17:59.380 put out a few fires

00:18:01.460 before they start,

00:18:02.420 but I just think that

00:18:03.720 there's no question

00:18:04.980 gender dysphoria

00:18:06.740 is a real phenomenon

00:18:07.840 that isn't merely

00:18:09.400 a product of

00:18:10.980 cultural contagion

00:18:12.640 or propaganda, right?

00:18:15.060 I mean, there are, you know,

00:18:15.980 I know someone

00:18:17.940 who at the age of four,

00:18:21.720 at least,

00:18:22.620 this, you know,

00:18:23.100 was just obviously

00:18:24.060 identifying as the opposite gender

00:18:26.760 and alleging any brainwashing

00:18:29.960 from the parents

00:18:30.680 or the culture

00:18:31.360 just doesn't make any sense

00:18:32.700 when you get close to this case.

00:18:35.400 And clearly,

00:18:36.820 there needs to be some path

00:18:38.080 for her to live

00:18:40.180 as happy a life as possible.

00:18:41.740 And, you know,

00:18:42.020 whether that requires

00:18:43.760 transitioning

00:18:44.920 through hormones

00:18:46.080 and surgery

00:18:46.620 at some point,

00:18:47.280 you know,

00:18:47.460 that's for the parents

00:18:49.280 and the child

00:18:49.740 to figure out

00:18:50.420 and only a,

00:18:52.780 someone who's really

00:18:54.780 just not sensitive

00:18:56.400 to the difference

00:18:58.200 between happiness

00:18:58.880 and suffering here

00:18:59.780 could doubt

00:19:01.420 that we would want

00:19:02.540 some process

00:19:03.440 to make that

00:19:04.220 as orderly

00:19:05.220 and as sensible

00:19:05.900 and as compassionate

00:19:07.100 as possible.

00:19:08.260 I mean,

00:19:08.540 and you want it

00:19:09.480 to terminate

00:19:10.300 whatever someone

00:19:11.180 winds up doing

00:19:11.980 in this space,

00:19:12.880 you want a political

00:19:14.080 environment

00:19:14.600 where there's just

00:19:15.320 no question

00:19:15.880 that there's

00:19:17.000 political equality

00:19:18.020 whatever one's

00:19:19.320 self-identified gender.

00:19:21.600 But around cases

00:19:23.480 like that,

00:19:24.460 there's an activist culture

00:19:25.960 that is just

00:19:27.720 not at all committed

00:19:29.840 to having a sane

00:19:32.180 conversation about this

00:19:33.620 and the trade-offs

00:19:34.440 between women's interests 0.99

00:19:36.680 and trans interests

00:19:37.920 and the interests

00:19:38.860 of the gay community

00:19:39.700 and trans interests

00:19:40.600 now are increasingly

00:19:41.840 zero-sum

00:19:42.640 in ways that are

00:19:43.940 pretty weird

00:19:44.720 and, you know,

00:19:46.160 the J.K. Rowling affair

00:19:47.460 was a flashpoint

00:19:49.040 around this.

00:19:49.940 I think the argument

00:19:51.000 here is that

00:19:51.660 we want to be able

00:19:53.060 to talk about this

00:19:54.520 but it does seem

00:19:56.100 like the controversy

00:19:56.840 here is completely

00:19:58.840 out of proportion

00:19:59.700 to the numbers

00:20:00.780 of people

00:20:01.340 who are actually

00:20:02.100 implicated

00:20:02.740 in this issue.

00:20:04.940 I mean,

00:20:05.080 I don't know what the,

00:20:06.020 even with an explosion

00:20:08.700 in gender identity

00:20:10.860 uncertainty

00:20:12.160 in the culture

00:20:13.580 for, you know,

00:20:14.060 whatever its origin

00:20:14.960 whether it's just,

00:20:16.000 you know,

00:20:16.300 exposing the level

00:20:17.980 that was always there

00:20:18.880 or there's some

00:20:19.700 component of social contagion

00:20:21.360 it's still a,

00:20:23.200 it has to be a sub-1%

00:20:25.020 of the population

00:20:25.980 phenomenon

00:20:27.060 and yet

00:20:27.680 it has a presence

00:20:29.140 online in particular

00:20:31.060 that, I mean,

00:20:31.640 you would think it's

00:20:32.700 as big as

00:20:34.020 wealth inequality

00:20:35.480 or racial inequality

00:20:37.200 in our society.

00:20:38.800 Do you regret

00:20:39.800 touching this topic

00:20:41.040 at all?

00:20:42.880 I do sometimes.

00:20:44.680 It's just,

00:20:45.280 it's sort of,

00:20:46.280 when this gets

00:20:47.260 its craziest

00:20:48.060 it gets very crazy

00:20:49.160 and, you know,

00:20:50.580 I'm not,

00:20:51.180 I'm not trying

00:20:52.540 to report from Syria.

00:20:53.760 I don't feel my life

00:20:54.520 is at risk

00:20:55.000 but, you know,

00:20:56.020 there's a subset

00:20:57.500 of people

00:20:57.880 who really try

00:20:58.540 to inflict

00:20:58.960 as much reputational

00:21:00.060 damage as possible

00:21:01.020 and it's not,

00:21:01.540 it's not fun

00:21:02.180 to go through.

00:21:03.160 That said,

00:21:03.920 I'm confident

00:21:05.440 in my work

00:21:06.140 and I'm confident

00:21:06.780 in the Atlantic's

00:21:07.420 editing and fact-checking

00:21:08.440 and I would still

00:21:09.680 point people

00:21:10.180 to this article

00:21:10.780 as a good way

00:21:11.960 to understand

00:21:12.800 this issue

00:21:13.400 and it includes

00:21:14.720 the voices

00:21:15.140 of happily transitioned

00:21:16.200 young people

00:21:16.900 so I can't really

00:21:18.800 say I regret it.

00:21:19.560 I also,

00:21:19.980 on net,

00:21:20.340 I've benefited

00:21:20.800 from the controversy

00:21:21.640 because controversy

00:21:22.440 attracts eyeballs

00:21:23.580 and then people see

00:21:24.620 the article,

00:21:25.620 read the article itself

00:21:26.460 and are baffled

00:21:27.040 as to what's

00:21:27.800 controversial about it.

00:21:29.240 And the question

00:21:30.060 of why the issue

00:21:31.120 is so big,

00:21:31.680 I do think

00:21:32.560 it's complicated.

00:21:33.340 There's a subset

00:21:34.660 of people

00:21:35.040 who from a very young age

00:21:36.160 are deeply dysphoric

00:21:37.180 and when I first

00:21:39.140 started learning

00:21:39.620 about this issue,

00:21:40.240 the idea of forcing

00:21:41.240 people to live

00:21:42.300 as men

00:21:43.620 or as males

00:21:44.640 when this is just

00:21:45.940 going to bring them

00:21:46.500 tremendous misery

00:21:47.520 and when in 99%

00:21:49.120 of cases

00:21:49.640 this won't hurt

00:21:50.460 anyone else

00:21:51.080 for them to transition,

00:21:52.160 I find there is

00:21:53.500 a genuine level

00:21:54.300 of cruelty there

00:21:55.120 or a level of maybe

00:21:56.340 rigidity of thinking

00:21:58.420 where at a certain

00:21:59.460 point it really is,

00:22:00.700 there should be

00:22:01.200 a little bit

00:22:01.640 of who cares

00:22:02.260 to this discussion.

00:22:03.100 Who cares

00:22:03.500 if people transition

00:22:04.220 if they're not

00:22:05.180 hurting others?

00:22:05.840 And then there's

00:22:06.780 that 1% 0.53

00:22:07.740 or 5%

00:22:08.500 or 10%

00:22:09.060 of the issue

00:22:09.500 when you're

00:22:10.080 talking about kids

00:22:11.120 and diagnostic

00:22:12.240 procedures

00:22:12.800 or when you're

00:22:13.560 talking about sports

00:22:14.660 or sort of

00:22:15.920 non-everyday

00:22:16.640 but still important

00:22:17.440 issues like prison,

00:22:19.180 stuff like that,

00:22:20.400 where we need

00:22:20.940 to be able

00:22:21.220 to have a sane

00:22:21.720 conversation

00:22:22.300 or there's

00:22:23.040 just going

00:22:23.360 to be

00:22:23.680 endless

00:22:24.000 culture warring

00:22:24.820 and backlash.

00:22:25.780 But there's

00:22:26.740 absolutely

00:22:27.360 a subset

00:22:28.360 of people

00:22:28.700 who I do

00:22:29.100 not think

00:22:29.500 will be able

00:22:29.820 to live

00:22:30.120 authentic

00:22:30.580 happy lives

00:22:31.220 unless they're

00:22:31.720 allowed to

00:22:32.060 transition.

00:22:33.020 The percentages

00:22:33.580 are tricky

00:22:34.140 because a lot

00:22:35.540 of social science

00:22:37.180 institutions

00:22:37.800 and media outlets

00:22:38.680 have sort of

00:22:39.160 taken cues

00:22:40.640 from activists

00:22:41.680 who are trying

00:22:42.260 to lump together

00:22:42.880 very different

00:22:43.440 cases.

00:22:44.280 So basically

00:22:45.000 the definition

00:22:45.640 of someone

00:22:46.020 who's transgender

00:22:46.500 at this point

00:22:47.040 is someone

00:22:47.380 who identifies

00:22:47.940 as transgender

00:22:48.660 and that ranges

00:22:49.800 from people

00:22:50.340 who don't have

00:22:50.880 any dysphoria

00:22:51.680 who will never

00:22:52.340 need medical

00:22:52.880 health care

00:22:53.380 to people

00:22:54.120 who are

00:22:54.360 deeply dysphoric.

00:22:55.660 So that sub

00:22:56.460 one percent

00:22:57.100 figure I think

00:22:58.100 is actually

00:22:58.600 not true.

00:22:59.840 I mean some

00:23:00.240 polling shows

00:23:01.160 much higher

00:23:02.460 numbers especially

00:23:03.200 among young

00:23:03.740 people but that's

00:23:04.540 because no one's

00:23:05.100 ever bothered

00:23:05.600 to really define

00:23:07.340 gender as it's

00:23:08.400 used today

00:23:08.820 in a coherent

00:23:09.360 way.

00:23:09.760 Gender seems 0.96

00:23:10.300 to mean a

00:23:10.760 million different

00:23:11.600 things.

00:23:12.220 So when we

00:23:12.500 talk about a

00:23:13.020 gender revolution

00:23:13.740 which is

00:23:14.300 language you

00:23:14.920 often hear

00:23:15.400 sometimes that

00:23:16.380 really is just

00:23:17.180 you know

00:23:17.520 14 year old

00:23:18.220 saying I

00:23:19.540 painted my

00:23:20.040 nails so I'm

00:23:20.640 non-binary

00:23:21.460 which is fine

00:23:22.300 and doesn't

00:23:22.660 hurt anyone

00:23:23.060 but that's

00:23:23.360 not the same

00:23:23.840 as having

00:23:24.320 dysphoria

00:23:24.820 and needing

00:23:25.340 medical help.

00:23:27.280 What would

00:23:27.500 you put the

00:23:28.320 percentage at?

00:23:29.800 Well I mean

00:23:30.220 the UCLA's

00:23:31.480 Williams Institute

00:23:32.200 I think puts

00:23:33.140 it at around

00:23:33.920 one percent

00:23:34.520 but I do

00:23:35.000 think especially

00:23:36.340 in the rise

00:23:37.000 of people

00:23:37.500 kids especially

00:23:38.540 identifying as

00:23:39.340 non-binary

00:23:39.760 any chunk

00:23:41.380 of the younger

00:23:41.820 population

00:23:42.440 it's probably

00:23:43.740 significantly higher

00:23:44.800 than that

00:23:45.200 and it doesn't

00:23:46.620 matter.

00:23:47.160 This is not

00:23:47.500 a threat to

00:23:48.380 anyone.

00:23:48.520 And the

00:23:48.700 only cases

00:23:49.720 I'm concerned

00:23:50.340 about are

00:23:51.040 when medical

00:23:52.360 interventions are

00:23:53.120 on the table.

00:23:54.540 Yeah it's

00:23:55.240 difficult and

00:23:56.260 no one should

00:23:58.160 envy anyone

00:23:59.000 parent or

00:24:00.120 child going

00:24:00.840 through it

00:24:01.440 but the

00:24:03.520 style of

00:24:04.920 conversation

00:24:05.560 on this

00:24:06.260 issue and

00:24:06.740 on so many

00:24:07.420 others at

00:24:07.800 the moment

00:24:08.180 is so

00:24:08.680 poisonous

00:24:09.180 and so

00:24:11.020 explicitly

00:24:11.680 aimed at

00:24:13.220 defenestrating

00:24:14.960 people and

00:24:16.280 the people

00:24:16.660 who survive

00:24:17.760 the mobbing

00:24:19.400 are either

00:24:20.400 very lucky

00:24:21.900 or they've

00:24:23.880 been previously

00:24:25.460 insulated from

00:24:26.560 the consequences

00:24:27.220 of this.

00:24:27.660 I mean someone

00:24:27.920 like J.K.

00:24:28.520 Rowling is

00:24:29.080 probably the

00:24:30.540 best example

00:24:31.160 because in

00:24:32.120 her case I

00:24:32.640 think it's

00:24:33.100 pretty obvious

00:24:34.380 that had she

00:24:35.580 not been J.K.

00:24:36.700 Rowling she

00:24:38.120 would have been

00:24:38.980 cancelled.

00:24:40.200 I mean her book

00:24:40.800 would have been

00:24:41.360 too much money

00:24:41.920 is on the line.

00:24:42.380 Yeah I mean

00:24:43.120 she is a 0.62

00:24:43.840 you know

00:24:44.360 literally a

00:24:45.220 billion dollar

00:24:46.100 colossus in

00:24:47.380 the publishing

00:24:48.080 industry opening

00:24:49.420 theme parks

00:24:50.360 based on her

00:24:51.000 novels.

00:24:51.900 It's impossible

00:24:52.760 to cancel her

00:24:53.560 but it seems

00:24:54.900 that even

00:24:55.340 there they

00:24:56.300 got fairly

00:24:56.860 close given

00:24:58.420 I mean when

00:24:59.040 you know the

00:24:59.840 Hollywood actors

00:25:00.920 whose careers

00:25:02.180 were entirely

00:25:03.120 defined by

00:25:05.080 her intellectual

00:25:06.380 property come

00:25:07.720 out and

00:25:08.660 disavow her

00:25:09.640 that's a big

00:25:10.800 deal especially

00:25:11.600 given how

00:25:13.180 anodyne the

00:25:14.740 things were

00:25:15.360 that she

00:25:15.700 said on

00:25:16.220 this issue.

00:25:18.000 Yeah I mean

00:25:18.560 you know it

00:25:19.260 gets complicated

00:25:19.840 because they're

00:25:20.520 expressing their

00:25:21.380 opinions they

00:25:22.060 have every

00:25:22.500 right to.

00:25:23.400 In the Rowling

00:25:24.540 case I

00:25:25.220 she was mostly

00:25:27.000 responding to

00:25:27.820 the idea of

00:25:28.800 reforming the

00:25:29.680 Gender Recognition

00:25:30.420 Act in the UK

00:25:31.100 so that self-ID

00:25:32.480 is basically the

00:25:33.300 law of the land

00:25:33.760 meaning you

00:25:34.800 can transition

00:25:35.660 your sex 0.99

00:25:36.240 without much

00:25:36.920 of a process

00:25:37.360 you just sort

00:25:38.020 of announce

00:25:39.420 bureaucratically

00:25:40.300 you sign

00:25:40.780 something and

00:25:41.280 you say I'm

00:25:42.000 now a man

00:25:42.680 I'm now a

00:25:43.120 woman it's

00:25:44.220 just been

00:25:44.540 weird watching

00:25:45.340 watching the

00:25:46.080 conversation over

00:25:46.840 that unfold I

00:25:48.260 generally don't

00:25:49.000 have a strong

00:25:49.360 opinion on it I

00:25:49.960 haven't looked

00:25:50.360 deeply enough

00:25:50.860 into it but

00:25:51.360 but you would

00:25:51.820 think that like

00:25:52.540 we should at

00:25:53.040 least be able to

00:25:53.580 talk about a

00:25:54.320 proposed change

00:25:55.240 to the law but

00:25:56.420 any opposition to

00:25:58.940 that or even

00:25:59.540 questions about it

00:26:00.720 is treated as

00:26:01.860 as though you

00:26:03.140 want trans people 1.00

00:26:04.220 to die and 0.99

00:26:05.360 and I'm only I'm

00:26:06.420 not really

00:26:06.860 exaggerating there

00:26:07.820 and that's

00:26:08.940 just not I

00:26:10.000 don't know

00:26:10.240 watching mage

00:26:11.020 mainstream media

00:26:11.720 outlets go along

00:26:12.540 with that and

00:26:13.140 and pretend that

00:26:14.020 there couldn't

00:26:14.600 possibly be any

00:26:15.700 trade-offs here

00:26:16.500 to the point

00:26:17.000 where the the

00:26:17.920 Guardian wrote

00:26:18.740 an unsigned

00:26:19.620 editorial simply

00:26:21.220 stating there

00:26:21.860 might be some

00:26:22.420 trade-offs here

00:26:23.100 and the US

00:26:23.760 Guardian several

00:26:24.520 staffers there

00:26:25.140 wrote a scathing

00:26:25.900 rebuttal about

00:26:26.960 how transphobic

00:26:27.740 their colleagues

00:26:28.320 across the pond

00:26:29.080 were it's just

00:26:29.720 you sort of you

00:26:31.000 you need to have

00:26:31.780 an actual

00:26:32.100 conversation about

00:26:32.960 a policy issue

00:26:33.760 and that means

00:26:34.580 that those of us

00:26:35.120 participating in it

00:26:36.120 we need to we

00:26:37.160 run the risk

00:26:37.640 maybe 20 years

00:26:38.420 ago 20 years

00:26:39.180 from now will

00:26:39.580 be history's

00:26:40.620 monsters but to

00:26:41.420 not have that

00:26:42.080 discussion at all

00:26:42.760 to skip right

00:26:43.380 ahead to this is

00:26:44.000 the right policy

00:26:44.720 and anyone who

00:26:45.300 questions it should 0.73

00:26:45.900 be destroyed

00:26:46.460 just just isn't

00:26:47.760 a sane way to

00:26:48.500 do business

00:26:49.040 I wasn't even

00:26:50.600 thinking of that

00:26:51.420 aspect of the

00:26:52.380 conversation was

00:26:53.060 more I mean

00:26:53.520 when I saw

00:26:54.760 things kick off

00:26:55.560 against Rowling

00:26:57.100 it was just on

00:26:58.020 her obvious 0.93

00:26:59.420 concern about the

00:27:00.260 the degradation of

00:27:01.960 the English

00:27:02.660 language right

00:27:03.560 she was pushing 0.97

00:27:04.220 back against

00:27:04.820 some I forget

00:27:06.180 who it was

00:27:06.620 but someone was

00:27:07.220 not using the

00:27:07.780 word woman

00:27:08.340 in the context

00:27:09.620 of talking about

00:27:10.560 people who

00:27:11.140 menstruate right 0.99

00:27:12.100 they didn't want

00:27:12.560 to use woman 0.99

00:27:13.100 because that

00:27:13.580 would be would

00:27:14.460 be denigrating 0.56

00:27:15.120 to all of the

00:27:15.840 trans women

00:27:17.100 who don't 0.85

00:27:17.520 menstruate so

00:27:18.620 they they referred

00:27:19.360 to you know

00:27:19.920 menstruators or

00:27:20.740 people who

00:27:21.140 menstruate and

00:27:21.820 and JK Rowling

00:27:22.840 got on Twitter

00:27:23.420 saying in a

00:27:24.840 somewhat snide

00:27:25.440 way well surely

00:27:26.520 there's a there's

00:27:27.140 a word for

00:27:28.080 someone who

00:27:28.560 menstruates and

00:27:29.860 then reap the

00:27:31.480 whirlwind on the

00:27:32.180 basis of that

00:27:32.760 yeah I you

00:27:34.380 know I think

00:27:35.280 there's an extent

00:27:36.140 to which not

00:27:37.900 just among

00:27:38.720 trans activists

00:27:40.320 but activists in

00:27:41.100 general there's

00:27:41.620 been this weird

00:27:42.200 tumblerization or

00:27:43.280 twitterization of

00:27:44.080 everything where

00:27:44.720 the specific

00:27:45.820 fights we have

00:27:47.280 aren't always the

00:27:49.280 most productive

00:27:49.880 ones if your goal

00:27:50.680 is to convince

00:27:51.400 people who aren't

00:27:52.020 yet convinced I

00:27:52.800 mean imagine

00:27:53.260 the difference if

00:27:54.620 you're new to

00:27:55.080 trans activism

00:27:55.700 between hearing an

00:27:56.660 interview with

00:27:57.140 someone who is

00:27:57.880 who is just going 0.99

00:27:58.940 to be miserable

00:27:59.540 unless they have

00:28:00.260 access to transition

00:28:01.100 services and there

00:28:01.840 are a lot of

00:28:02.100 people like that

00:28:02.660 versus versus

00:28:03.840 the your first

00:28:04.500 encounter with it

00:28:05.140 being you can't

00:28:06.200 say pregnant women 0.76

00:28:06.900 anymore they're

00:28:07.460 pregnant people or 0.98

00:28:08.280 they're menstruators 1.00

00:28:09.240 there there seems

00:28:10.840 to be here and

00:28:12.260 elsewhere little

00:28:13.300 people aren't really

00:28:15.140 attending to the

00:28:16.100 idea that maybe

00:28:16.760 they should try to

00:28:17.440 couch the political

00:28:18.660 claims in language

00:28:19.780 the as yet

00:28:21.340 unconverted would be

00:28:22.800 sympathetic to

00:28:23.400 so now how do you

00:28:24.840 pick your battles

00:28:25.660 at this point

00:28:26.520 because you don't

00:28:27.300 shy away from

00:28:28.060 controversy even

00:28:28.920 though you you

00:28:29.980 are battle

00:28:31.140 scarred on this

00:28:32.480 topic what what

00:28:33.480 do you are there

00:28:34.260 are there things

00:28:34.760 that you decline

00:28:36.800 to touch now

00:28:37.760 because of this

00:28:39.240 experience or do

00:28:40.560 you just keep

00:28:42.320 forging ahead

00:28:43.800 toward any

00:28:44.520 culture war issue

00:28:45.640 that interests

00:28:46.280 you I mean so

00:28:48.440 one of the benefits

00:28:49.220 of having a

00:28:49.800 sub stack is when

00:28:50.620 I do write about

00:28:51.320 these issues it's

00:28:52.280 often behind a

00:28:52.940 paywall and

00:28:53.600 there's downsides

00:28:54.240 to that because

00:28:54.960 you know if you'd

00:28:56.260 like to contribute

00:28:56.860 to the public

00:28:57.380 discourse but

00:28:58.180 especially given

00:28:59.460 that my views

00:29:00.020 aren't that that

00:29:00.980 radical I mean I

00:29:02.060 it is you can

00:29:03.400 avoid the Twitter

00:29:04.020 shitstorm which is

00:29:04.820 nice I I do

00:29:07.160 think people who

00:29:07.820 write about

00:29:08.240 cultural issues

00:29:09.000 there is this

00:29:09.820 risk that you

00:29:10.860 get pulled into

00:29:12.000 this black hole

00:29:12.880 where your entire

00:29:14.700 intellectual identity

00:29:16.480 becomes centered on

00:29:17.580 like fighting the

00:29:18.800 SJWs or whatever 1.00

00:29:19.920 or or fighting the

00:29:21.700 worst college

00:29:22.440 professors and I'm

00:29:23.520 I'm worried about

00:29:24.760 that because there

00:29:25.380 is some incentive

00:29:26.140 to do that like if

00:29:26.940 I wanted to

00:29:27.360 maximize my

00:29:28.420 sub stack revenue

00:29:29.540 I would just do

00:29:30.100 culture worship all

00:29:30.940 the time but there

00:29:32.120 really there are more

00:29:33.060 important things in

00:29:33.780 the world so I

00:29:35.120 haven't figured out

00:29:36.020 how to how to

00:29:36.680 strike the right

00:29:37.160 balance but I'm

00:29:37.920 trying to

00:29:38.480 yeah that is a

00:29:40.600 a real liability of

00:29:42.340 touching these

00:29:43.020 topics it's this

00:29:44.700 phenomenon that I've

00:29:45.400 discussed at a few

00:29:46.920 points which goes by

00:29:48.900 the name at least in

00:29:49.760 my brain of audience

00:29:51.300 capture where you if

00:29:53.080 you yes train your

00:29:54.780 audience or you

00:29:56.200 acquire an audience

00:29:57.200 that wants to hear

00:29:59.000 from you on on

00:29:59.940 this hottest of

00:30:01.500 topics yeah you

00:30:03.260 you can kind of

00:30:04.040 self-incentivize to

00:30:05.220 keep doing it and

00:30:06.260 I've certainly done

00:30:07.520 my best to avoid

00:30:08.360 that I mean really

00:30:09.380 not because I

00:30:11.320 mean the main

00:30:12.180 reason for me is

00:30:12.920 just it's just that

00:30:13.700 it's it's too

00:30:15.080 boring right I

00:30:16.600 mean it's just it's

00:30:17.540 just deadly there's

00:30:18.260 there's not that much

00:30:19.340 to think about here

00:30:20.660 once you have a

00:30:23.280 modicum of intellectual

00:30:24.880 honesty and goodwill

00:30:26.420 in hand it's just

00:30:27.300 not this is not it's

00:30:29.820 not rocket science to

00:30:31.440 see what's wrong with

00:30:34.080 with essentially lying

00:30:36.260 and seizing upon

00:30:39.000 confirmation bias as

00:30:40.920 though it were some

00:30:41.340 kind of virtue and

00:30:42.880 then trying to destroy

00:30:44.160 people who won't play 0.92

00:30:45.240 that game I mean so

00:30:46.660 criticizing that whole

00:30:47.960 tangle of bad form

00:30:50.300 in argumentation

00:30:51.940 again and again and

00:30:53.200 again is just it

00:30:54.240 gets deadly boring

00:30:55.020 but and there are

00:30:55.840 people who do it

00:30:56.780 and they become

00:30:58.060 single issue people

00:31:00.640 to a point where

00:31:02.060 yeah then they then

00:31:03.360 they allow themselves

00:31:04.080 to make alliances

00:31:04.980 that are obviously

00:31:07.260 ethically or

00:31:08.680 intellectually

00:31:09.640 questionable or both

00:31:11.260 right I don't know

00:31:12.740 that we need to name

00:31:13.440 names here but there

00:31:14.260 are people who I

00:31:15.360 think I agree with

00:31:16.580 95% on the topic

00:31:19.660 of what's wrong

00:31:20.900 with wokeism or

00:31:22.280 you know cancel

00:31:23.000 culture or identity

00:31:24.200 politics but the

00:31:25.840 5% of daylight

00:31:27.200 between us opens

00:31:29.420 on to the full

00:31:31.520 horror show of

00:31:32.640 Trumpistan and

00:31:33.760 QAnon and just

00:31:35.720 absolute madness

00:31:36.920 that these people

00:31:38.720 refuse to criticize

00:31:40.320 because those

00:31:41.960 cultural forces are

00:31:43.700 pointing in the same

00:31:44.720 direction against the

00:31:46.780 wokeness on the left

00:31:48.500 and so you know it's

00:31:49.720 just this principle

00:31:50.500 you know the the

00:31:51.220 enemy of my enemy is

00:31:52.180 my friend which

00:31:54.020 really is just it's

00:31:55.440 just a bad heuristic

00:31:56.980 that was like a big

00:31:58.520 moment for me as

00:31:59.320 like a warning sign

00:32:00.280 of what can happen

00:32:01.000 if you're not

00:32:01.480 intellectually careful

00:32:02.420 and don't have some

00:32:03.480 humility humility

00:32:04.480 watching all these

00:32:05.300 sort of anti-woke

00:32:06.840 people either

00:32:08.140 announce they were

00:32:08.940 voting for Trump or

00:32:10.140 claiming there wasn't

00:32:11.240 really a big and

00:32:12.740 meaningful difference

00:32:13.400 between Trump and

00:32:14.140 Biden to claim to

00:32:16.180 speak for liberalism

00:32:17.540 classical or otherwise

00:32:18.620 and then not be

00:32:20.440 outraged by Trump

00:32:21.580 it just it all becomes

00:32:22.820 tribalism and in many

00:32:23.920 cases they take on the

00:32:24.980 characteristics of their

00:32:25.820 enemies you'll see

00:32:26.700 them talk about

00:32:27.540 wokeism in the same

00:32:29.160 way the least

00:32:30.760 thoughtful thinkers on

00:32:31.940 the left talk about

00:32:32.680 white supremacy as

00:32:33.580 this like mystical 0.88

00:32:34.420 force that just

00:32:35.260 infects everything and

00:32:36.420 can't really be

00:32:36.940 explained in normal

00:32:38.300 terrestrial language

00:32:39.260 and you end up

00:32:40.100 sounding like a cult

00:32:40.980 member at the end of

00:32:41.680 the day not not

00:32:42.440 someone capable of

00:32:44.040 intellectual engagement

00:32:45.420 and weighing trade

00:32:46.660 offs I just yeah I

00:32:48.440 can't stand that at

00:32:49.740 all I also um there's

00:32:51.620 a really good book by

00:32:52.320 Todd Gitlin called the

00:32:53.260 twilight of common

00:32:54.140 dreams he wrote in

00:32:55.020 1995 as just as a

00:32:56.560 lefty attempt to make

00:32:57.480 sense of the culture

00:32:58.240 wars and you know

00:32:59.520 he's outraged by the

00:33:00.640 1995 equivalent of

00:33:02.040 wokeness he's also

00:33:02.860 outraged at conservative

00:33:04.360 attempts to sort of

00:33:05.340 um uh piggyback off it

00:33:07.420 in bad faith and it's

00:33:09.040 such a depressing book

00:33:09.920 to read because there

00:33:10.820 are almost other than

00:33:12.640 social media there are

00:33:13.620 no differences between

00:33:14.660 the fights that were

00:33:15.340 going on then and the

00:33:16.240 fights that are going

00:33:16.740 on it's just it's all 0.99

00:33:17.760 the same shit was 0.99

00:33:19.260 slightly different 1.00

00:33:19.920 language and it's just

00:33:20.900 like how many decades

00:33:22.540 of your life do you

00:33:23.180 want to spend doing the

00:33:25.100 culture war thing when

00:33:25.920 when there's not I'm

00:33:27.260 not sure it's gonna be

00:33:28.120 any different 30 years

00:33:29.120 from now but something

00:33:30.900 has changed I mean this

00:33:32.160 may be a difference of

00:33:35.480 view between us in

00:33:36.400 terms of how dire the

00:33:39.340 current moment is

00:33:40.260 because I mean in

00:33:41.540 1995 there hadn't

00:33:43.800 been unless I just

00:33:45.660 slept through it or I

00:33:47.200 was too young to care

00:33:48.460 or something it does

00:33:50.660 not seem that there

00:33:52.600 had been the same

00:33:53.340 kind of institutional

00:33:54.500 capture by what

00:33:56.360 certainly to my eyes

00:33:57.980 seems like a public

00:34:00.060 hysteria and the

00:34:01.960 difference I mean the

00:34:02.860 reason why it makes

00:34:03.880 sense to worry more

00:34:05.420 about the far left

00:34:07.440 and I guess we just

00:34:09.380 can keep calling it

00:34:10.380 wokeness to capture

00:34:12.140 the whole phenomenon

00:34:12.820 the reason why it

00:34:13.900 makes sense to be

00:34:14.680 more worried about

00:34:16.120 wokeness than by you

00:34:18.940 know white supremacy

00:34:20.160 say is because genuine

00:34:23.320 white supremacy is a

00:34:25.380 true fringe phenomenon

00:34:27.620 on the right the people

00:34:29.780 who show up with tiki

00:34:30.700 torches are obviously 1.00

00:34:32.660 retrograde assholes and 1.00

00:34:34.660 they don't I mean apart 1.00

00:34:35.540 from the fact that

00:34:36.540 you know Trump gave

00:34:37.440 them some comfort with

00:34:39.100 his ambiguities we're

00:34:40.940 not talking about real

00:34:43.320 cultural power for the

00:34:45.540 fringe on the right

00:34:46.380 whereas the fringe on

00:34:48.160 the left really does seem

00:34:50.240 to have captured

00:34:51.160 academia and media and

00:34:54.100 tech and Hollywood not

00:34:57.280 every inch of it

00:34:58.160 perhaps and obviously

00:34:59.800 there's a ton of

00:35:00.660 preference falsification

00:35:01.820 I mean there are many

00:35:02.660 many people who are just

00:35:03.480 keeping mum or paying

00:35:05.700 lip service to an

00:35:06.660 ideology that they don't

00:35:07.720 actually share and

00:35:08.560 they're waiting for

00:35:09.120 everyone to wake up so

00:35:10.280 that it'll be safe to be

00:35:11.320 honest again but it

00:35:12.960 still has been captured

00:35:14.240 to an amazing degree so

00:35:17.680 in terms of cultural

00:35:18.740 influence and the

00:35:20.260 stifling of honest

00:35:21.840 conversation that's

00:35:23.720 happening in mainstream

00:35:25.000 really in every

00:35:26.820 mainstream quadrant of

00:35:28.160 culture that is a leftist

00:35:30.360 phenomenon

00:35:31.060 so I agree that that's

00:35:33.860 a difference between

00:35:34.920 then and now I guess

00:35:36.400 part of me I think the

00:35:38.460 preference falsification

00:35:39.260 thing is huge just based

00:35:40.740 on the emails I get from

00:35:41.960 from professors and

00:35:43.060 journalists who think

00:35:43.920 their own department or

00:35:45.180 newsroom has gone crazy

00:35:46.480 if there is capture I'm

00:35:49.300 not sure how sustainable

00:35:50.780 it is because so many

00:35:52.320 people are are quietly

00:35:53.820 freaking out about you

00:35:56.220 know what the Trump

00:35:56.900 years have done to their

00:35:57.760 institutions and there

00:35:59.960 seems to be a steady

00:36:00.820 stream of stories that

00:36:02.840 leak and that outrage

00:36:04.340 every it's just it's a

00:36:05.540 very whatever it is and

00:36:07.280 I agree wokeness is I

00:36:08.680 don't know if that's the

00:36:09.260 best word away but you

00:36:10.260 could fight all day over

00:36:11.400 what to call it it is not

00:36:12.500 a popular ideology it

00:36:13.800 really isn't I mean

00:36:14.620 whatever polling you look

00:36:15.620 at but the people who

00:36:17.400 believe in it you know

00:36:18.860 they're people from

00:36:19.540 backgrounds like mine

00:36:20.280 they're they're they're

00:36:21.080 well-educated they're in

00:36:22.200 media I just I'm not

00:36:23.840 sure you can sort of

00:36:25.300 foist it on on people

00:36:26.880 for that long without

00:36:28.280 there being backlash

00:36:29.140 and I think that does

00:36:29.940 partly explain you know

00:36:32.120 the sub stack thing and

00:36:33.320 the success of of of our

00:36:34.800 podcasts and others so I

00:36:36.960 guess I just what I

00:36:37.740 don't want is like total

00:36:38.700 balkanization where where

00:36:40.460 these outlets keep going

00:36:41.860 down that road and to

00:36:42.840 get the other view but

00:36:44.160 still left of center view

00:36:45.340 your only choice is is

00:36:46.780 sub stack or certain

00:36:47.800 podcasts yeah that I

00:36:50.260 think is totally

00:36:51.480 unsustainable but what to

00:36:53.780 do about it is the

00:36:54.480 question I was recently

00:36:55.760 at a a meeting of very

00:36:59.180 connected people in tech

00:37:01.320 and media and I say I

00:37:04.360 won't name anyone but I

00:37:05.600 mean these are people who

00:37:06.460 are are running or were

00:37:08.560 running some of the

00:37:09.940 biggest companies these are

00:37:12.140 people with massive

00:37:13.480 influence and these were

00:37:15.180 people who are you know on

00:37:16.360 the same page with

00:37:17.100 everything we've said

00:37:17.760 here but when when told

00:37:20.240 that they really should

00:37:23.540 just present a united

00:37:24.600 front here and not

00:37:25.780 tolerate these mutinies of

00:37:28.100 their their woke employees

00:37:30.640 so the example I gave in

00:37:32.540 this meeting was you know

00:37:33.980 what happened to Nicholas

00:37:35.180 Christakis at Yale so my 1.00

00:37:37.460 premise was at some point

00:37:39.980 and I think we're at that

00:37:41.020 point there is no substitute

00:37:45.040 for institutional courage

00:37:47.260 right you can have the

00:37:48.300 courage of individuals but

00:37:50.640 at a certain point the

00:37:51.900 institutions themselves have

00:37:53.620 to say okay no more

00:37:55.100 this party of masochism and

00:37:59.060 delusion is over so when

00:38:02.520 you look at what happened at

00:38:04.020 Yale when you watch that

00:38:05.580 video of Nicholas summoning

00:38:08.180 more patients than anyone

00:38:10.280 you know out you know

00:38:11.740 short of you know a

00:38:13.180 Christian saint who has been

00:38:14.300 crucified with a happy

00:38:15.660 smile on his face has

00:38:16.760 has managed to muster and

00:38:18.660 you see the behavior of

00:38:19.920 those students that was

00:38:20.860 borderline physically

00:38:22.680 threatening at points and

00:38:24.780 totally intolerable from an

00:38:27.360 academic point of view it's

00:38:29.100 just it's patently obvious

00:38:30.660 to me what should have

00:38:31.640 happened there that some of

00:38:32.720 those kids should have been 0.92

00:38:33.860 expelled from Yale it was

00:38:36.020 completely beyond the pale what

00:38:38.840 they were up to there and what

00:38:41.920 actually happened is they got

00:38:43.740 awards for activism they were

00:38:46.620 literally given awards right

00:38:49.220 some of them I don't know how

00:38:50.300 many got awards but some some of

00:38:51.980 the principal people in that

00:38:53.380 video got singled out for their

00:38:55.540 their heroic activism which was

00:38:58.100 antithetical to anything a sane

00:39:00.540 university needs to be committed

00:39:02.800 to in terms of a dispassionate

00:39:05.760 search for truth so I floated that

00:39:08.160 example to these captains of

00:39:10.040 industry and I said at what point do

00:39:12.560 your companies just hold the line

00:39:15.400 and say if you feel that way go

00:39:17.300 work somewhere else and everyone

00:39:20.740 in the room agreed that that was

00:39:22.880 not going to happen that there was

00:39:24.700 no way that was going to happen

00:39:26.220 just because of the backlash yeah

00:39:28.180 that it's gone too far it's too

00:39:30.720 scary there's too much money to

00:39:32.540 lose it was a complete not it went

00:39:34.840 over like a lead balloon that was a

00:39:37.140 complete non-starter and I kept

00:39:39.660 pushing it I said listen the people in

00:39:41.940 this room literally know everybody

00:39:43.980 you could have a star chamber

00:39:45.940 meeting where everyone agreed to be

00:39:47.700 on the same page here so that the

00:39:49.960 mutineers from Google couldn't just

00:39:51.840 jump over to Amazon or Facebook or

00:39:53.960 Apple or you could literally get

00:39:55.740 everyone to agree to just wake up

00:40:00.060 simultaneously and they said there's

00:40:04.520 no way it's going to happen it's over

00:40:06.680 it was an incredibly bleak picture

00:40:11.140 coming from people who either are at

00:40:13.860 the top or were at the top of some of

00:40:16.220 the biggest businesses in tech and

00:40:18.320 media right and which suggested to me

00:40:21.280 that this is you know the situation is

00:40:23.720 worse than I thought not better I mean I

00:40:27.640 wouldn't want I saw the video it was

00:40:29.960 terrible but I wouldn't want the kids

00:40:31.300 expelled why can't it be a middle way

00:40:33.020 where you don't expel them but you

00:40:34.680 just explain at a certain point you

00:40:36.620 need to explain like you know you

00:40:38.460 guys don't make the rule something

00:40:39.900 similar happened as Simon and

00:40:41.380 Schuster where you know Mike Pence's

00:40:43.200 book employees wanted to cancel it and

00:40:45.940 the the higher-ups were like you know

00:40:48.320 no we're not canceling it obviously

00:40:49.600 that's another case where a lot of

00:40:50.620 money was involved so it wasn't like

00:40:51.860 doing it out of their out of the good

00:40:54.340 of their liberal hearts but but I mean

00:40:56.520 that's that's a depressing story I just

00:40:58.280 think it it doesn't seem like the

00:41:00.880 places that have just said you know

00:41:03.520 sorry we disagree with you on this

00:41:05.080 have suffered as a result I mean 0.97

00:41:06.540 there's another dumb blow-up involving 0.97

00:41:08.200 Trader Joe or some blogger or Twitter 0.96

00:41:10.340 or tried to say their brand names were

00:41:12.560 offensive and Twitter just Trader Joe's

00:41:14.320 just said said no why why can't more

00:41:16.100 people just say no that's the one

00:41:17.820 example I mean that and Basecamp are

00:41:19.900 the examples of companies standing I

00:41:22.680 don't think Trader Joe's suffered any I

00:41:25.100 don't don't actually know but I

00:41:26.360 hadn't I haven't heard that they

00:41:27.680 suffered much of anything as a

00:41:29.500 consequence but Basecamp lost you

00:41:31.480 know whatever 30 percent of its

00:41:33.520 employees and I think the picture of

00:41:36.640 something like that happening at

00:41:37.720 Facebook or Apple or anywhere else is

00:41:40.480 too terrifying but that that only

00:41:42.780 presumes that they would have

00:41:44.280 somewhere they could go I just think

00:41:46.580 that a certain point institutions have

00:41:48.340 to present a united frontier I mean the

00:41:50.860 problem is that if you flipped it if

00:41:52.960 you flip the to take the variable of

00:41:55.540 race here it is reverse racism well it's

00:41:59.300 creating a completely hostile you mean

00:42:01.280 like the Yale thing no the Yale thing

00:42:03.600 was deranged around this this issue of

00:42:06.380 Halloween costumes and but I mean the

00:42:09.140 thing that is causing so much chaos in

00:42:12.680 most of these instances in these

00:42:15.320 corporations obviously the trans issue 0.90

00:42:17.380 comes up again and again but it's much

00:42:19.820 more common that the issue is born of

00:42:22.180 concerns about racial inequality which you

00:42:24.780 obviously are understandable and need to

00:42:28.260 be addressed in some way throughout our

00:42:31.360 society but there's just a continuous

00:42:34.880 allegation of racism where the allegations

00:42:38.920 not only unwarranted it's obviously

00:42:41.940 unwarranted right like all the participants

00:42:44.700 actually know that it's unwarranted you take

00:42:47.320 the case of there are so many cases here but

00:42:50.160 the one that comes to mind here is what

00:42:52.760 happened at Netflix with the head of

00:42:56.040 communications Jonathan Friedland who got

00:42:58.200 fired you know he for using the n-word in a

00:43:02.520 context that was not a use of the n-word as

00:43:06.020 a slur it was the use of the n-word to tell

00:43:09.120 people just you know what a concern it was

00:43:12.320 that they get their messaging correct I mean

00:43:14.140 for those who don't remember this episode

00:43:17.140 briefly what happened is Tom Segura the comic

00:43:19.760 released a comedy special on Netflix where

00:43:22.860 he used the word retard over and over again

00:43:25.100 and they got a ton of blowback and so

00:43:27.860 Jonathan Friedland who was head of

00:43:30.300 communications in a closed-door meeting at

00:43:33.440 the company said listen this is this is a

00:43:35.560 huge deal it turns out that using this

00:43:38.420 word is like using the n-word for the

00:43:40.760 black community but he didn't say n-word

00:43:42.640 he used the word and for that use of the

00:43:46.260 magic syllables in a context where he's

00:43:48.960 expressing his own you know very liberal

00:43:51.980 opinion that they have to be even more

00:43:53.700 scrupulous about the use of the word

00:43:55.820 retard he wound up getting fired but it 1.00

00:44:00.000 was in a context where literally no one

00:44:03.000 thought that he was actually a racist right

00:44:06.140 this was not a case where there was a

00:44:07.720 that his use of the word suggested to so

00:44:09.980 many people that he really is a closeted

00:44:12.680 racist no he had simply uttered the word

00:44:16.280 Voldemort and it was the taboo is so deep

00:44:21.180 that there was no digging out so there's a

00:44:24.760 couple different things there was another

00:44:26.000 case similar at the New York Times

00:44:27.880 involving Donald McNeil jr that I I found

00:44:30.780 similarly infuriating and you had you had

00:44:32.880 you know 150 times staffers signing a

00:44:35.780 letter demanding he be reinvestigated I I do

00:44:39.000 think there's maybe a difference between

00:44:40.380 cases like that where you know basically

00:44:43.200 what people are trying to do there is

00:44:44.800 establish

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - May 21, 2021

#250 — Broken Conversations

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