Making Sense - Sam Harris - May 26, 2021


#251 — Corporate Cowardice


Episode Stats

Length

39 minutes

Words per Minute

185.25208

Word Count

7,283

Sentence Count

60

Misogynist Sentences

14

Hate Speech Sentences

18


Summary

Antonio Garcia-Martinez joins me to talk about his experience at Apple and why we need a return to the center of ethical coherence in our politics. He also talks about why we ve reached a point where we ve become myopic and myopic, and why it s time for us to find something like a "True North" where ethics can recede to the edges of life and culture, where it belongs. We don t run ads on the podcast, and therefore it s made possible entirely through the support of our listeners, who are the ones making the podcast possible. So if you enjoy what we re doing here, please consider becoming a supporter of the podcast by becoming a subscriber. If you re not a subscriber, you ll need to subscribe to the podcast to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, which is available over at AbsolutelyMental.org. You ll get access to episodes on topics such as: Why Do We Dream, What Makes Something Funny, Will We Be Replaced by Robots? What's the Point? Where Does Morality Come From? What Makes Us Who We Are? How Can Stories Make Us Cry? and How Will Civilization End? by Ricky Gervais? And How Will We End? on the new podcast with Ricky Gerrans. And much more! Subscribe to the Absolutely Mentalist Podcast with Rickie Martinez on his new podcast, which you can find out more about him on his website, wherever you get your news and opinions. . Sam Harris on his podcast, The Making Sense is on all things, including his latest book, How to help you make sense of the world. Sam is on the world and much more. On the road to becoming a better version of The Good Morning, Good Morning and Good Morning Goodness by Sam Harris and Good Things by Good Morning by Good Things Goodness and Good Life by Good Vibes and Good Relationships by Good Gratitude by The Good Thing Good Things, Good Things and Good People by Good People, by Good Thing by Good Life Good Things by Bad Things by Bad Vibez by Good News and Good News by Good Work and Good Thoughts by Bad News by Bad Relationships and Good Problems by Good Coaching by Bad Reel by Bad Coffee by Good Company by Bad Coaching by Mr. Good Coeling and Good Voodoo by Good Neighbor by Good Lord and Good Friends by Good Ol


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:08.840 This is Sam Harris.
00:00:10.900 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this,
00:00:13.040 you are not currently on our subscriber feed
00:00:15.160 and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation.
00:00:18.440 In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast,
00:00:21.580 you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org.
00:00:24.160 There you'll find our private RSS feed
00:00:25.960 to add to your favorite podcatcher,
00:00:27.980 along with other subscriber-only content.
00:00:30.220 We don't run ads on the podcast,
00:00:32.400 and therefore it's made possible entirely
00:00:33.940 through the support of our subscribers.
00:00:35.820 So if you enjoy what we're doing here,
00:00:37.680 please consider becoming one.
00:00:47.000 Okay, well, like many of you,
00:00:49.700 I'm feeling the tractor beam of normal life
00:00:53.320 pull me back into the world.
00:00:56.820 It's quite a feeling
00:00:57.940 to have civilization reboot
00:01:00.500 on the wings of a successful vaccine campaign.
00:01:06.580 Pretty amazing.
00:01:08.420 One thing the United States
00:01:10.120 appears to have gotten right
00:01:11.780 is the last-minute vaccination
00:01:14.920 of a society that
00:01:17.140 couldn't even agree
00:01:18.760 we had a pandemic.
00:01:19.960 what an incredible situation
00:01:22.700 we've been in.
00:01:24.780 I can imagine many of you
00:01:26.260 share my sense that
00:01:27.860 whatever was good
00:01:29.420 in the great reset
00:01:32.260 of the last year
00:01:34.160 should be maintained.
00:01:36.620 A sense of
00:01:37.760 greater clarity
00:01:39.340 with respect to one's priorities.
00:01:41.900 but
00:01:43.040 it's worth observing
00:01:44.960 that it will be
00:01:45.840 hard to maintain
00:01:47.240 without some ongoing attention.
00:01:50.440 Anyway, I wish you all
00:01:51.360 the best of luck
00:01:52.020 as things
00:01:53.400 return to normal
00:01:54.500 here.
00:01:56.060 And we find ourselves
00:01:57.200 eating
00:01:57.620 inside restaurants
00:01:59.160 once again.
00:01:59.860 No Real Housekeeping
00:02:03.140 just a reminder
00:02:04.360 about the new podcast
00:02:05.140 with Ricky Gervais
00:02:06.680 that is available
00:02:08.380 over at
00:02:09.120 AbsolutelyMental.com
00:02:11.020 There are 11 episodes
00:02:12.960 on various topics
00:02:14.920 three of which you
00:02:16.060 heard on this podcast
00:02:17.320 some months back.
00:02:19.380 The titles are
00:02:20.060 Why Do We Dream?
00:02:21.700 What Makes Something Funny?
00:02:23.600 Will We Be Replaced
00:02:24.460 by Robots?
00:02:26.080 Would You Rather?
00:02:27.700 What's The Point?
00:02:28.640 Where Does Morality
00:02:30.580 Come From?
00:02:31.860 What Makes Us Who We Are?
00:02:34.160 Why Do We Fear Death?
00:02:36.140 How Can Stories
00:02:37.220 Make Us Cry?
00:02:39.040 What's So Great
00:02:39.880 About Life?
00:02:41.180 And How Will
00:02:42.040 Civilization End?
00:02:44.100 These are episodes
00:02:45.100 organized around
00:02:45.780 questions that
00:02:46.520 Ricky poses to me
00:02:47.980 and I endeavor
00:02:49.300 to answer them
00:02:49.960 but then chaos
00:02:51.460 ordinarily ensues.
00:02:53.560 Anyway,
00:02:54.180 it was a lot of fun
00:02:54.700 to make.
00:02:55.700 People really seem
00:02:56.480 to love it
00:02:56.920 so it is there
00:02:58.240 if you want to
00:02:58.960 hear it
00:02:59.360 at
00:03:00.080 AbsolutelyMental.com
00:03:01.400 Today I'm speaking
00:03:04.020 with Antonio
00:03:04.800 Garcia Martinez.
00:03:06.900 Antonio worked
00:03:08.020 at Facebook
00:03:08.600 and other companies
00:03:10.320 in tech
00:03:10.900 and was recently
00:03:12.280 hired by Apple
00:03:13.340 and then quickly
00:03:14.880 fired over the
00:03:16.520 discovery that he
00:03:17.500 had written a
00:03:18.100 best-selling book
00:03:18.980 which Apple
00:03:20.360 already knew about
00:03:21.100 and there were
00:03:23.680 some lines in there
00:03:24.520 that 2,000 of his
00:03:26.200 fellow employees
00:03:27.020 at Apple
00:03:27.580 thought made them
00:03:29.980 actually unsafe
00:03:31.620 to work in his
00:03:33.980 company.
00:03:34.760 This is yet another
00:03:35.700 cancellation
00:03:36.220 coming from the
00:03:38.460 identitarian moral
00:03:39.860 panic that has
00:03:40.940 engulfed the left
00:03:42.020 side of our
00:03:42.760 political spectrum
00:03:43.660 and I wanted to
00:03:46.680 talk to Antonio
00:03:47.300 because this was
00:03:49.140 really just such a
00:03:50.180 clear-cut case of
00:03:51.640 us having reached
00:03:54.240 a precipice that
00:03:56.100 we really must
00:03:57.000 pull back from.
00:03:59.480 This was a case
00:04:00.480 where he had
00:04:01.120 written a book
00:04:02.400 which as you'll
00:04:03.400 hear was widely
00:04:06.320 vetted by liberal
00:04:07.900 journalists and
00:04:09.300 widely admired
00:04:10.300 and was published
00:04:11.540 in 2016
00:04:12.700 which though it is
00:04:15.080 only five years
00:04:15.840 ago in calendar
00:04:17.360 time might as
00:04:18.920 well have been in
00:04:19.380 the Middle Ages
00:04:20.060 with respect to
00:04:21.800 current attitudes.
00:04:24.000 Anyway, I know
00:04:24.560 some of you are
00:04:25.260 still struggling to
00:04:26.640 convince yourselves
00:04:27.340 this is even a
00:04:28.100 problem.
00:04:29.300 I will admit that
00:04:30.540 it's possible to
00:04:31.400 be too online and
00:04:32.920 to magnify this
00:04:34.920 problem and many
00:04:36.700 of the people who
00:04:37.200 are focused on it
00:04:38.120 I have criticized
00:04:39.220 for becoming too
00:04:41.220 myopic but I do
00:04:43.020 think we've reached
00:04:43.560 a point where
00:04:44.420 there's a level
00:04:46.120 of activism
00:04:47.860 and capitulation
00:04:50.140 to the mob
00:04:50.860 that we just
00:04:51.900 can't sustain
00:04:52.940 and certainly
00:04:53.860 shouldn't want
00:04:54.540 to sustain.
00:04:56.180 Politics has
00:04:57.420 invaded everything.
00:05:00.140 It's just crazy
00:05:01.460 that we have to
00:05:02.940 think about politics
00:05:04.040 this much.
00:05:05.560 This has become
00:05:06.380 absolutely stifling
00:05:08.000 to our intellectual
00:05:09.320 lives and if you
00:05:11.180 were privy to
00:05:11.800 some of the
00:05:12.160 closed-door
00:05:12.740 conversations I've
00:05:13.700 had about this
00:05:14.420 you would be
00:05:15.680 aghast at how
00:05:17.380 paralyzed even
00:05:19.300 the most powerful
00:05:20.040 people in our
00:05:20.720 society are at
00:05:22.540 the moment.
00:05:23.900 Politically
00:05:24.380 speaking this
00:05:25.340 will be the
00:05:25.700 ruination of
00:05:26.440 the Democratic
00:05:26.920 Party which you
00:05:28.680 might think
00:05:29.300 deserves to be
00:05:30.080 ruined but what
00:05:31.480 does it leave us
00:05:32.080 the Republican
00:05:32.660 Party and the
00:05:34.780 pendulum will
00:05:35.940 swing back and
00:05:38.020 perhaps not land
00:05:39.140 in the center.
00:05:40.920 We don't want
00:05:41.800 an over correction
00:05:42.740 to this either.
00:05:44.700 Anyway I think
00:05:45.380 this has all
00:05:46.100 been taking us
00:05:47.120 to a very
00:05:47.820 ugly place
00:05:49.180 and it's time
00:05:50.900 for all of us
00:05:51.340 to find something
00:05:52.240 like a true
00:05:53.080 north where
00:05:54.220 real ethical
00:05:55.940 coherence can
00:05:57.460 underpin our
00:05:58.720 politics and
00:06:00.360 politics can
00:06:01.220 recede to the
00:06:02.440 edges of life
00:06:03.920 and culture
00:06:04.900 where it belongs.
00:06:07.600 Anyway I feel
00:06:08.420 like I have to
00:06:08.860 pick my moments
00:06:09.560 on this topic
00:06:10.300 but the
00:06:11.760 instantaneous
00:06:12.460 capitulation of
00:06:14.060 the richest
00:06:14.540 company on
00:06:15.220 earth Apple
00:06:16.140 just needed to
00:06:17.440 be talked
00:06:18.140 about.
00:06:19.600 And now I
00:06:20.340 bring you
00:06:20.760 Antonio Garcia
00:06:21.720 Martinez.
00:06:29.200 I am here
00:06:30.140 with Antonio
00:06:30.760 Garcia Martinez.
00:06:32.160 Antonio thanks
00:06:32.840 for joining me.
00:06:34.400 Hey Sam thank
00:06:35.180 you for having
00:06:35.700 me on.
00:06:36.080 So this is
00:06:38.320 an interesting
00:06:39.180 topical moment
00:06:40.600 it's interesting
00:06:41.680 for me I'm
00:06:42.800 sure painful
00:06:43.660 and chaotic
00:06:44.160 for you but
00:06:45.680 before we jump
00:06:46.600 into the matter
00:06:47.660 at hand maybe
00:06:48.940 you can summarize
00:06:49.640 your background.
00:06:52.040 What is your
00:06:52.680 potted
00:06:53.340 intellectual and
00:06:54.860 tech biography?
00:06:56.740 Yeah it's
00:06:57.280 slightly strange
00:06:58.620 so I guess it
00:06:59.300 all started
00:06:59.820 when I read
00:07:01.580 Michael Lewis's
00:07:02.520 Liar's Poker
00:07:03.260 when I was
00:07:03.840 working on a
00:07:04.400 PhD in
00:07:04.940 physics at
00:07:06.000 Berkeley and
00:07:07.360 it just
00:07:08.720 convinced me
00:07:09.200 that I had
00:07:09.660 believe it or
00:07:10.080 not that I
00:07:10.500 had to go
00:07:10.820 work on
00:07:11.120 Wall Street.
00:07:12.300 And so I
00:07:12.920 dropped out
00:07:13.680 and got a
00:07:14.020 job at
00:07:14.320 Goldman Sachs
00:07:15.040 as a
00:07:15.840 credit
00:07:17.020 derivatives
00:07:17.460 pricing quant
00:07:18.200 basically on
00:07:18.820 the trading
00:07:19.140 floor right
00:07:20.660 when the
00:07:20.940 credit bubble
00:07:21.360 was going
00:07:21.580 to explode
00:07:21.960 and I saw
00:07:22.460 that whole
00:07:22.900 fire sort
00:07:23.580 of play
00:07:23.980 out.
00:07:24.520 What year
00:07:24.980 was that?
00:07:25.900 I left
00:07:26.520 Berkeley in
00:07:27.240 2005 and
00:07:28.800 left
00:07:29.480 Goldman in
00:07:30.040 2008.
00:07:31.320 Yeah okay.
00:07:32.100 So you
00:07:33.560 were there
00:07:33.860 when the
00:07:34.220 wheels fully
00:07:36.320 came off.
00:07:37.400 Oh yeah I
00:07:37.860 had front you
00:07:38.780 know as a
00:07:39.480 wet behind the
00:07:40.140 ears you
00:07:41.360 know Berkeley
00:07:41.800 former Berkeley
00:07:42.460 grad student I
00:07:43.460 had a front
00:07:43.800 row seat on
00:07:44.660 the incineration
00:07:45.980 of the American
00:07:46.400 financial system
00:07:47.140 which formed
00:07:49.380 a chapter in
00:07:50.380 my later book
00:07:51.160 which we're
00:07:51.480 going to get
00:07:51.780 to but
00:07:52.180 anyhow the
00:07:52.960 financial world
00:07:53.580 was blowing
00:07:53.920 up.
00:07:54.820 One good
00:07:55.440 intuition I
00:07:55.980 had in my
00:07:56.300 life was that
00:07:57.220 this whole
00:07:57.940 finance thing
00:07:58.420 was kind
00:07:58.720 of you know
00:07:59.660 be kind of
00:08:00.360 over for a
00:08:01.160 number of
00:08:01.440 years.
00:08:02.120 And that
00:08:02.320 tech would
00:08:02.820 be sort
00:08:03.120 of an
00:08:03.320 oasis from
00:08:03.860 the coming
00:08:04.260 catastrophe which
00:08:05.040 it sort of
00:08:05.360 was.
00:08:06.320 And so I
00:08:06.560 moved back
00:08:06.980 west actually
00:08:07.560 to the Bay
00:08:08.000 area where
00:08:08.440 I'd been a
00:08:09.360 grad student
00:08:09.780 and worked
00:08:10.740 at a big
00:08:11.400 tech startup.
00:08:12.180 That startup
00:08:12.840 was run by
00:08:13.300 a sociopath
00:08:13.820 didn't actually
00:08:14.740 do very well
00:08:15.220 but I did
00:08:15.540 meet co-founders
00:08:16.380 and I got
00:08:16.940 into what's
00:08:17.400 called Y
00:08:17.860 Combinator
00:08:18.320 which as
00:08:19.100 many of
00:08:19.420 your listeners
00:08:19.800 probably know
00:08:20.460 it was the
00:08:21.820 original sort
00:08:23.240 of tech
00:08:23.580 incubator
00:08:24.100 accelerator
00:08:24.580 that takes
00:08:26.060 you know
00:08:26.700 founders who
00:08:27.140 don't know
00:08:27.340 what they're
00:08:27.520 doing and
00:08:28.380 hopefully takes
00:08:28.920 them to a
00:08:29.180 point where
00:08:29.400 they know
00:08:29.620 slightly more
00:08:31.660 started a
00:08:32.240 company ran
00:08:32.900 for about a
00:08:33.260 year sold
00:08:34.260 it to
00:08:34.480 Twitter and
00:08:35.560 through a
00:08:35.820 bunch of
00:08:36.060 drama I
00:08:36.740 ended up
00:08:37.120 as an
00:08:37.940 early member
00:08:38.420 of Facebook's
00:08:39.320 ads team
00:08:40.040 specifically
00:08:40.480 working on
00:08:41.280 data and
00:08:42.460 targeting and
00:08:43.160 privacy around
00:08:44.440 2011.
00:08:47.060 How big was
00:08:47.880 Facebook at
00:08:48.400 that point?
00:08:49.380 Well the
00:08:50.080 company as a
00:08:50.640 whole I think
00:08:50.980 I was like
00:08:51.320 employee 2000
00:08:52.220 but given
00:08:53.240 given that the
00:08:54.040 ads team
00:08:54.460 started relatively
00:08:55.080 late or that
00:08:56.140 the entire ads
00:08:56.900 product started
00:08:58.640 rather late in
00:08:59.240 Facebook's life
00:08:59.860 the entire ads
00:09:01.040 team at the
00:09:01.440 time in terms
00:09:02.040 of engineers
00:09:02.620 was maybe
00:09:03.560 25 or
00:09:05.000 30 at
00:09:05.800 most with
00:09:07.300 five or six
00:09:08.140 what are called
00:09:08.560 product managers
00:09:09.340 i.e. sort of
00:09:10.300 you know the
00:09:10.820 product leader who
00:09:11.560 kind of defines
00:09:12.220 what gets built
00:09:13.060 and I was the
00:09:13.920 one for targeting
00:09:14.600 so it was it
00:09:15.420 was super early
00:09:16.120 days there had
00:09:17.420 never been a
00:09:17.960 targeting roadmap
00:09:18.740 of any sort
00:09:19.380 at Apple that
00:09:20.360 was my first
00:09:20.980 mandate when I
00:09:21.620 got there so
00:09:22.500 it was very and
00:09:23.140 you know the
00:09:23.600 cool thing about
00:09:24.180 it and why I
00:09:24.700 thought it sort
00:09:25.180 of merited a
00:09:25.700 book which we're
00:09:26.460 going to get to
00:09:26.800 in a second
00:09:27.180 you know was
00:09:28.580 watching Facebook go
00:09:30.020 from that sort
00:09:30.660 of very
00:09:31.020 embryonic
00:09:31.860 you know almost
00:09:33.660 slightly frat
00:09:34.360 boyish culture
00:09:35.000 to you know a
00:09:36.380 proper public
00:09:37.080 company I was I
00:09:38.060 was there
00:09:38.440 overlapping that
00:09:39.360 that that
00:09:40.260 period the
00:09:40.940 company went
00:09:41.320 public when I
00:09:41.680 was there it
00:09:42.160 forms kind of
00:09:42.800 the the crowning
00:09:43.600 part of my
00:09:44.280 memoir so that
00:09:45.660 that was the
00:09:46.160 sort of interesting
00:09:46.680 part to it and
00:09:47.240 so when I when I
00:09:47.920 left Facebook for
00:09:48.660 a bunch of
00:09:49.020 reasons which I
00:09:49.700 mean we can
00:09:49.960 talk about or
00:09:50.420 not and then
00:09:51.820 you know I
00:09:52.160 held a few other
00:09:52.860 roles I was an
00:09:53.400 advisor Twitter I
00:09:54.260 was a VP of
00:09:55.520 product at a
00:09:56.420 at an advertising
00:09:57.760 company you know
00:09:58.760 it's sort of well
00:09:59.800 and then my
00:10:00.160 mother died was a
00:10:00.860 whole nother story
00:10:01.360 but it sort of
00:10:02.080 struck me that you
00:10:02.960 know I not that my
00:10:04.400 story was actually
00:10:05.220 that unique but it
00:10:06.660 was emblematic of a
00:10:07.600 certain time and
00:10:08.260 period in Silicon
00:10:08.860 Valley and that it
00:10:09.480 was worth sort of
00:10:10.500 recording in a book
00:10:11.440 and that's what I
00:10:12.400 did I I basically
00:10:13.480 sold everything moved
00:10:15.380 to Europe because I
00:10:16.620 assume I'd be
00:10:17.040 canceled for for
00:10:18.920 writing the tell
00:10:19.460 a memoir it turns
00:10:20.200 out I guess I was
00:10:20.760 canceled but for
00:10:21.380 slightly different
00:10:21.880 reasons and wrote a
00:10:23.560 very unvarnished view
00:10:24.940 of my history inside
00:10:26.060 Silicon Valley called
00:10:26.740 Chaos Monkeys which
00:10:27.700 unfortunately is still
00:10:28.980 in the news which
00:10:29.860 is why this
00:10:30.280 conversation is
00:10:30.920 happening yeah so
00:10:32.380 I I will confess I
00:10:33.700 have not finished
00:10:34.280 your book but I
00:10:35.000 you know we we
00:10:36.040 just grabbed this
00:10:36.800 podcast in terms of
00:10:39.200 my workflow pretty
00:10:40.640 much on the fly and
00:10:41.580 so I'm I think I'm
00:10:42.440 about halfway through
00:10:43.740 but certainly enough
00:10:45.120 to get a sense of
00:10:46.160 your point of view
00:10:47.300 there and what kind
00:10:48.320 of read it is and
00:10:50.320 we'll we'll get to
00:10:52.140 that because you
00:10:53.240 know the reception
00:10:53.860 that the book got
00:10:54.760 when it came out
00:10:55.700 was I'm sure there
00:10:58.220 were people who
00:10:59.400 wrote some hit
00:11:00.280 pieces but there
00:11:01.560 are an incredible
00:11:02.380 number of effusive
00:11:03.260 responses to the
00:11:05.200 book as a an
00:11:07.100 insider tell all of
00:11:08.680 Silicon Valley and
00:11:10.900 it's very well
00:11:12.480 written it's very
00:11:14.080 entertaining it's
00:11:15.700 easy to see however
00:11:16.720 how someone might
00:11:18.200 not like you on
00:11:20.880 the basis of reading
00:11:21.640 it I mean it's like
00:11:22.220 the persona you
00:11:23.020 adopt is extremely
00:11:25.840 catty and I
00:11:27.820 mean and
00:11:28.180 contemptuous I
00:11:28.940 mean you're
00:11:29.080 basically contemptuous
00:11:29.860 of everyone including
00:11:30.900 yourself at least for
00:11:32.560 the first half of the
00:11:33.200 book I don't know if
00:11:34.000 there's some downpour of
00:11:35.780 gratitude and
00:11:36.520 generosity that I'm
00:11:37.580 going to encounter at
00:11:38.180 the end but you know
00:11:39.340 up until the midpoint
00:11:41.340 everyone I think with
00:11:43.880 the exception of Paul
00:11:44.760 Graham at Y
00:11:45.980 Combinator gets
00:11:47.520 fairly crucified by
00:11:49.500 you but I think I'm
00:11:51.980 we're getting ahead of
00:11:52.800 ourselves here so
00:11:54.080 you've written this
00:11:54.720 book which is now
00:11:56.280 poised to detonate
00:11:57.880 like a time bomb in
00:11:59.620 your life what
00:12:00.920 happens next I hear
00:12:03.060 Apple hired you for a
00:12:04.740 job recently yeah
00:12:06.540 indeed they did well
00:12:07.840 I would pause maybe
00:12:08.840 and I think the
00:12:09.640 launching of the book
00:12:10.280 is maybe worth
00:12:11.140 commenting on for a
00:12:11.880 moment as you said
00:12:13.180 it was widely
00:12:13.820 reviewed I mean I
00:12:14.540 don't like tooting my
00:12:15.300 own horn but you
00:12:17.100 know whether Apple
00:12:18.540 knew or not is one of
00:12:19.420 these questions so I
00:12:20.300 feel I feel I need to
00:12:22.300 cite the fact that it
00:12:23.100 was like a month on the
00:12:23.840 bestseller list of the
00:12:24.600 Wall Street Journal of
00:12:25.200 the New York Times it
00:12:26.200 was reviewed by
00:12:26.760 everybody it made a big
00:12:27.840 splash I announced it
00:12:28.940 on like CBS America this
00:12:30.820 morning whatever it's
00:12:31.480 called that show with
00:12:32.080 Gayle King you know it
00:12:33.260 it made a splash when it
00:12:34.520 came out by by any
00:12:35.480 objective standard and
00:12:36.740 if you go to like the
00:12:37.760 you know the Amazon page
00:12:38.640 for it you'll see this
00:12:39.640 wall of positive blurbs
00:12:41.580 from every major you
00:12:43.220 know elite reviewer media
00:12:45.020 organization in the
00:12:45.740 country you know
00:12:46.660 commenting on it and
00:12:47.480 all the rest of it so I
00:12:48.160 mean this book was
00:12:48.840 about a secret as
00:12:49.640 Christmas Day really
00:12:51.340 and I would just
00:12:52.380 point out that this is
00:12:53.100 relevant because you
00:12:54.500 some people will
00:12:55.880 anticipate where we're
00:12:56.620 going here you have
00:12:57.780 been fired over the
00:12:59.080 by Apple over the
00:13:00.600 discovery of this
00:13:01.840 unhidden book for
00:13:03.980 reasons that have
00:13:04.940 everything to do with
00:13:05.680 the the the
00:13:07.140 the identitarian moral
00:13:08.300 panic that's occurring
00:13:09.140 on the left here but
00:13:10.600 the thing to point out
00:13:12.020 it's not gratuitous to
00:13:13.480 cite all these great
00:13:14.620 reviews because they're
00:13:16.600 coming from the
00:13:18.900 highest echelons of
00:13:20.480 liberal media a
00:13:22.700 mere what is it four
00:13:24.880 years ago five years
00:13:25.740 ago when did this book
00:13:26.480 come out yep 2016
00:13:28.080 yeah so maybe it was
00:13:29.940 an NPR best book of
00:13:31.320 the year you have
00:13:32.860 multiple positive
00:13:34.700 citations from the
00:13:36.060 New York Times
00:13:36.780 Andrew Ross Sorkin is
00:13:37.980 one of them you know
00:13:39.320 it looks like you had
00:13:40.460 independent separate
00:13:41.540 reviews in the in the
00:13:43.060 weekly paper and in
00:13:44.080 the book review I
00:13:45.980 mean to call this
00:13:46.840 effusive is to
00:13:48.240 understate it from a
00:13:49.340 publishing point of
00:13:50.040 view and these are
00:13:52.360 liberal voices who if
00:13:54.960 anyone was going to
00:13:55.780 discover that you were
00:13:56.900 a right-wing monster it
00:14:00.060 would have been
00:14:00.400 discovered here we got
00:14:01.580 Leonard Lopate loving
00:14:03.460 the book we have you
00:14:04.740 did an interview with
00:14:06.020 Kara Swisher at the
00:14:07.840 time and while she
00:14:08.980 pushed you on topics
00:14:10.360 of related to sexism and
00:14:12.400 misogyny she completely
00:14:15.180 got the context in
00:14:17.700 which this was
00:14:18.320 appearing and I mean
00:14:20.380 as we'll get to the
00:14:21.740 context is everything
00:14:23.440 so it's um deeply
00:14:25.820 ironic that every
00:14:28.060 liberal voice in sight
00:14:31.260 seems to have not
00:14:33.300 noticed the problem
00:14:34.720 that uh and again I'm
00:14:36.640 I'm getting ahead of
00:14:37.560 the story here but that
00:14:38.800 2,000 employees at
00:14:40.600 Apple based on on
00:14:42.700 their clairvoyance
00:14:43.520 one must imagine
00:14:44.620 without having opened
00:14:45.420 your book read into
00:14:47.320 the the depths of your
00:14:48.280 soul and realized that
00:14:49.280 you needed to be
00:14:49.860 canceled yeah and um
00:14:52.180 it you know it's funny
00:14:53.240 a female reader
00:14:54.660 actually dm me
00:14:55.720 yesterday I won't I
00:14:56.420 won't name who it is
00:14:57.320 but I I screenshotted
00:14:58.220 her her dm said you
00:15:00.120 know I I really think
00:15:02.160 99% of your detractors
00:15:03.380 have never even read
00:15:04.040 the book because you
00:15:05.920 know again 99% of the
00:15:07.420 book has nothing to do
00:15:08.520 with you know dating in
00:15:10.340 San Francisco any of
00:15:11.940 that stuff it really
00:15:12.480 has to do about
00:15:13.220 technology entrepreneurship
00:15:14.420 and all the rest of
00:15:15.020 it and and speaking of
00:15:16.120 being right-wing Sam you
00:15:17.500 know it's funny because I
00:15:18.340 went back and reread some
00:15:19.180 of my passages by the
00:15:19.860 way authors I at least
00:15:21.720 don't go back and reread
00:15:23.020 chaos monkeys on a
00:15:23.800 regular basis I had to
00:15:24.600 remind myself of a lot
00:15:25.880 of the tone and stuff
00:15:26.500 because you know you
00:15:27.040 just leave a book
00:15:27.580 behind and you know
00:15:29.060 get on with life but I
00:15:29.980 was rereading the
00:15:30.680 chapters and I
00:15:31.120 realized I come off like
00:15:32.400 this radical Bernie
00:15:34.420 bro because my my
00:15:36.080 criticisms of of the
00:15:37.340 sort of pageant of
00:15:38.060 capitalism involved and
00:15:40.080 for example the IPO
00:15:41.060 which was a major event
00:15:42.200 at Facebook and I was
00:15:42.960 right there in the
00:15:43.480 courtyard right in front
00:15:44.260 of Zuck when he pushed
00:15:44.980 the buzzer you know all
00:15:46.280 that stuff you know
00:15:47.100 front row seat on the
00:15:47.840 whole thing and you
00:15:49.220 know I kind of objected
00:15:50.160 to it I saw the cult
00:15:51.160 like elements of it I
00:15:52.220 saw how at their
00:15:53.440 extremes hyper capitalism
00:15:54.760 and communism sort of
00:15:55.800 meet my parents are
00:15:57.060 Cuban exiles they they
00:15:58.140 fled the communist
00:15:58.680 revolution I've been
00:16:00.420 back to Cuba actually
00:16:01.300 reporting for wired on
00:16:02.500 the underground internet
00:16:03.280 so you know it's it but
00:16:04.900 it's and obviously
00:16:06.180 there's differences
00:16:06.660 there I'm not saying
00:16:07.380 obviously Facebook equals
00:16:08.620 communist Cuba but
00:16:09.840 there's elements of the
00:16:10.600 culture that are very
00:16:11.260 similar in sort of
00:16:13.160 disturbing ways and so
00:16:14.440 I actually do get into
00:16:15.300 that a lot but again
00:16:15.900 that's wholly and
00:16:17.040 completely uncommented
00:16:17.860 on most of the
00:16:19.020 context or sorry most of
00:16:20.420 the quote is about one
00:16:21.380 sentence quoted out of
00:16:22.380 context in which in a
00:16:23.720 very you know ham
00:16:25.600 fisted in an awkward
00:16:26.280 way I make this sort of
00:16:27.660 pee into my to the then
00:16:28.860 mother of my child and
00:16:29.760 you know the pair I
00:16:31.060 don't think I need to
00:16:31.440 repeat it but you know
00:16:32.140 there was a certain
00:16:32.500 passage there that
00:16:33.120 everyone's talking about
00:16:33.740 but again the you know
00:16:34.640 the other the other
00:16:36.300 512 pages of the book
00:16:37.680 are not about that and
00:16:39.220 so if there's one thing
00:16:40.480 in particular that
00:16:41.320 peeves me it's it's
00:16:42.480 kind of that completely
00:16:43.620 you know bias parsing of
00:16:45.700 of the book
00:16:46.360 okay so let's let's
00:16:48.100 start at the moment
00:16:48.700 where you get recruited
00:16:49.860 by Apple and what
00:16:51.260 happens next
00:16:51.880 right so I you know I
00:16:53.580 was working at a large
00:16:55.740 venture backed startup
00:16:57.160 before and I was
00:16:59.940 fairly comfortable
00:17:00.580 there I had invested a
00:17:01.700 lot of time and sweat
00:17:02.420 there well let me let
00:17:03.620 me just maybe fill in
00:17:04.380 the gaps because people
00:17:05.140 might be wondering like
00:17:05.940 what's the deal here
00:17:06.680 how do you go from a
00:17:07.360 writer back to tech I
00:17:09.080 think it's relevant to
00:17:09.960 the story so you know
00:17:11.360 after the book came out
00:17:12.000 2016 you know one of
00:17:13.440 the things I didn't
00:17:13.860 realize and not as an
00:17:14.700 author I'm sure Sam you
00:17:15.700 know you know this now
00:17:16.480 more way more than than
00:17:18.320 I do you know the
00:17:19.420 author is part of the
00:17:20.160 product that's sold with
00:17:21.120 the book right and I
00:17:22.140 didn't quite understand
00:17:23.660 that I I thought I
00:17:24.760 could sort of sell this
00:17:25.340 book you know crazy
00:17:26.860 gonzo journalist thing
00:17:27.900 and then kind of go on
00:17:28.600 with life or whatever I
00:17:30.040 ended up staying in
00:17:30.800 writing I became a
00:17:31.880 columnist at Wired I
00:17:32.940 wrote I wrote book
00:17:34.340 reviews for the
00:17:34.800 Washington Post you
00:17:35.680 know I became your
00:17:36.260 standard ambiguous media
00:17:38.880 figure who spends too
00:17:39.980 much time on Twitter and
00:17:41.000 writes here and there
00:17:41.840 and tries to make a
00:17:43.140 spectacle of him or
00:17:44.340 herself right and it
00:17:46.140 drove me basically crazy
00:17:47.380 I literally went into a
00:17:48.680 deep depression and we
00:17:49.580 don't have to turn this
00:17:50.060 into a soft story but it
00:17:51.260 just became untenable
00:17:52.160 right around 2019 I
00:17:53.560 understood that I just I
00:17:54.600 can't keep on doing
00:17:55.260 this and so I I came
00:17:56.820 back to tech which to me
00:17:57.920 I didn't know again like
00:17:59.240 I had written you know
00:18:01.060 I there's a sort of
00:18:01.940 code of silence that
00:18:02.800 exists inside tech like
00:18:03.880 you're not supposed to
00:18:04.560 everything's always up
00:18:05.360 and to the right
00:18:05.800 everything is positive
00:18:06.620 and no one ever talks
00:18:08.020 about the reality of it
00:18:09.600 which is often a little
00:18:10.280 bit darker than that and
00:18:11.180 I had and so I thought I
00:18:12.640 was canceled from the
00:18:13.800 employment perspective
00:18:14.700 about that alone but it
00:18:16.360 turns out I I managed to
00:18:18.100 to wangle a job at a
00:18:19.440 very respected successful
00:18:21.240 startup and spent a year
00:18:23.080 and a half there I'm like
00:18:23.720 okay I'm back in business
00:18:24.780 like I I'm a tech guy
00:18:25.780 again I've left the
00:18:26.620 writing world behind
00:18:27.440 it's a shame but
00:18:28.680 whatever right so then
00:18:30.400 you know Apple through a
00:18:33.520 former colleague who
00:18:34.320 worked there you know
00:18:35.000 reached out and said
00:18:35.800 look we've got X Y and
00:18:38.180 Z going on we think
00:18:39.100 you'd be a real fit here
00:18:40.040 let's start talking and
00:18:41.460 yeah it took a couple
00:18:42.320 months but basically
00:18:43.960 they yeah they
00:18:44.980 persuaded me to come
00:18:46.480 in interview I spoke
00:18:48.020 to a bunch of their
00:18:48.660 team it's how it works
00:18:49.440 in tech you do a quote
00:18:50.420 you know a loop in
00:18:51.700 which you sit there and
00:18:52.700 talk to a half dozen
00:18:54.320 people all day and
00:18:55.640 they made an offer
00:18:56.480 and you know people
00:18:58.580 often ask me and I'm
00:18:59.700 guessing this is I
00:19:00.840 might be preempting
00:19:01.440 your next question Sam
00:19:02.240 which is like well did
00:19:03.140 like Apple know about
00:19:04.340 the book or what and
00:19:06.240 they absolutely did I
00:19:07.720 mean when when you
00:19:08.940 apply to get back into
00:19:10.100 the tech fold right
00:19:11.380 like this writer this
00:19:12.720 writerly period is
00:19:13.660 almost like a gap in
00:19:14.340 the resume you have to
00:19:15.160 explain right at least
00:19:16.480 that's how I felt about
00:19:17.260 it and so I put it on
00:19:19.100 my CV it's on my
00:19:19.860 LinkedIn practically
00:19:21.440 every interviewer I
00:19:22.460 brought up so like hey
00:19:23.360 I know it's kind of
00:19:23.980 weird but there was
00:19:25.320 this like three-year
00:19:26.080 gap where I spent
00:19:27.740 too much time on
00:19:28.300 Twitter and wrote and
00:19:29.820 that's it but I'm back
00:19:31.100 in business I'm a tech
00:19:31.960 guy now that's what it
00:19:32.840 is and so of course
00:19:34.320 they knew about it and
00:19:34.920 then in addition you
00:19:36.360 know you provide
00:19:36.900 professional references
00:19:37.680 when you apply to tech
00:19:38.800 companies and you know
00:19:40.160 Apple actually checked
00:19:40.980 them and did their
00:19:42.060 due diligence and spoke
00:19:42.940 to all of them and I
00:19:44.460 spoke to those
00:19:44.940 references and indeed
00:19:45.820 they they asked
00:19:46.800 specifically about the
00:19:48.340 book and you know is
00:19:49.260 Antonio actually this
00:19:50.060 person can we trust
00:19:51.400 them to like not
00:19:52.540 divulge internal
00:19:53.880 secrets like what is
00:19:54.900 he actually like as a
00:19:55.680 person and the
00:19:56.580 answers were all well
00:19:57.400 look the book is one
00:19:58.160 thing the person is
00:19:58.860 another you're fine we
00:20:00.760 we support him we get
00:20:01.840 behind him I mean some
00:20:03.020 of my references were
00:20:03.840 people at Facebook that
00:20:06.100 I'd actually written the
00:20:06.740 book about and so all
00:20:08.540 systems go was hired and
00:20:10.240 then of course you know
00:20:11.300 what happened happened
00:20:12.140 three weeks later
00:20:12.820 so you moved right you
00:20:14.260 were where were you you
00:20:15.020 were in Washington
00:20:15.540 yeah so one of the
00:20:18.200 among the various
00:20:19.140 imprudent things I did
00:20:20.200 in 2016 in addition to
00:20:23.040 publishing this book I
00:20:24.760 wrote the book in a part
00:20:25.880 of the world called the
00:20:26.840 San Juan Islands which I
00:20:28.320 didn't know about at all
00:20:29.160 and probably most
00:20:30.340 Americans don't know
00:20:30.980 about it's about 130
00:20:32.380 islands northwest of
00:20:33.900 Seattle kind of
00:20:34.880 practically in Canada
00:20:36.180 that's part of the US
00:20:37.920 gorgeous gorgeous
00:20:39.080 beautiful place and I
00:20:41.360 randomly quote unquote
00:20:42.520 discovered them and when I
00:20:44.120 got the book deal in 2015
00:20:45.560 they were like oh we
00:20:47.300 want it by like next
00:20:48.460 summer which is
00:20:49.340 lightning speed by book
00:20:50.800 standards and they're
00:20:51.540 like so can you get us a
00:20:52.500 manuscript by like
00:20:54.020 Christmas and I'm like
00:20:56.120 oh my god okay I've
00:20:57.420 basically got to go go to
00:20:58.520 a cabin in the woods and
00:21:00.300 live like a hermit and
00:21:01.420 just pump out you know
00:21:02.740 prose and that's it and
00:21:03.680 that's what I did I
00:21:04.680 rented a house on this
00:21:05.960 island called Orcas
00:21:06.580 Island on the northern
00:21:07.460 shore of it I you know
00:21:09.560 drank a lot of IPA and
00:21:11.060 wrote and fumed a lot
00:21:12.260 which I think maybe
00:21:13.340 created part of the
00:21:14.360 tone in the book that
00:21:15.540 is still now an issue
00:21:16.440 in it and it came out
00:21:17.200 and I kind of fell in
00:21:17.880 love with the place and
00:21:18.480 so then when the first
00:21:19.240 advance check sort of
00:21:20.800 hit you know which was
00:21:22.340 nothing amazing nothing
00:21:23.300 enormous by the way I
00:21:24.880 I bought a few acres of
00:21:26.560 bare woodland up there
00:21:28.560 and for the next two or
00:21:29.500 three years became you
00:21:31.400 know what you call a
00:21:31.960 homesteader taming taming
00:21:33.500 the wild putting in a
00:21:34.500 well putting in a solar
00:21:35.820 panel system building
00:21:37.240 structures I mean
00:21:38.220 initially I literally had
00:21:39.440 like I showed up in
00:21:41.100 September of 2016 three
00:21:43.380 months after non-stop
00:21:44.660 book publicity with a
00:21:46.180 backpack and a tent and
00:21:47.420 said I will make this
00:21:48.760 home and so that's that's
00:21:51.040 what I did from about
00:21:51.820 2016 until the end of
00:21:53.500 2019 although I still
00:21:55.600 live there like I
00:21:56.280 particularly under the
00:21:57.040 pandemic I would bounce
00:21:57.900 between San Francisco and
00:21:59.040 there but I stopped
00:22:00.680 building and stopped you
00:22:02.460 know getting calluses on
00:22:04.260 my hands towards the end
00:22:05.660 of 2019 but then I sold
00:22:08.200 that so then when when the
00:22:09.200 Apple thing hit like again
00:22:10.480 I don't know I don't
00:22:12.080 know quite how to stress
00:22:12.680 it but it was really me
00:22:13.460 kind of turning over a
00:22:14.680 new page in life and
00:22:15.560 saying look the writer
00:22:16.520 thing is definitely dead
00:22:17.620 I'm definitely going back
00:22:18.740 to tech Orcas Island I
00:22:20.520 mean the idea was to be
00:22:21.960 this you know eccentric
00:22:24.160 bohemian you know
00:22:26.120 isolated writer that's
00:22:27.080 not going to happen I'm
00:22:27.840 just going to join Apple
00:22:29.220 and be you know a polite
00:22:31.540 loyal worker be inside
00:22:32.920 inside them and that's it
00:22:34.220 I'm just and I've I've
00:22:35.080 got family in San
00:22:35.780 Francisco I've got a
00:22:36.220 child that I have a
00:22:37.260 relationship with I'm
00:22:38.480 just going to sell that
00:22:39.200 it's over I mean it
00:22:39.980 was it was a great
00:22:40.580 saga was an adventure
00:22:41.340 but it's it's time to
00:22:42.560 just put that behind me
00:22:43.680 and literally literally
00:22:45.480 the day that the deal
00:22:46.340 closed like when the
00:22:47.380 broker texted me saying
00:22:49.060 oh great the wire is
00:22:50.320 going to hit everything's
00:22:51.040 great we're all done is
00:22:52.480 when the current scandal
00:22:53.900 actually erupted
00:22:54.640 okay so what was the
00:22:56.560 first reverberation of
00:22:59.480 the scandal how did it
00:23:01.280 first land for you
00:23:02.460 yeah I mean this is
00:23:03.680 where we get a little
00:23:04.340 bit into this is where
00:23:07.880 we get a little bit
00:23:08.340 into a legal minefield
00:23:09.040 I can't I'm you know
00:23:10.200 I'm still under current
00:23:11.140 Apple NDA as any
00:23:12.480 employee is at a tech
00:23:13.360 company and so things
00:23:15.280 that happened internally
00:23:16.560 at Apple when I was
00:23:17.880 there I really can't
00:23:18.520 address what I can say
00:23:19.860 and what I have said
00:23:20.340 publicly is that it was
00:23:21.900 a snap decision it
00:23:22.780 happened very quickly
00:23:23.480 and it you know it was
00:23:25.900 from one moment to the
00:23:27.340 next and and that's how
00:23:28.980 it went down that the
00:23:29.720 rest of it I can't I
00:23:30.520 can't really comment on
00:23:31.220 but as far as what's
00:23:32.580 publicly available it's
00:23:34.620 true to say that your
00:23:36.080 hire came to the
00:23:37.260 attention of your
00:23:38.820 fellow now Apple
00:23:40.120 employees and some
00:23:42.380 petition was circulated
00:23:44.040 and something like
00:23:45.740 2000 Apple employees
00:23:47.620 either called for an
00:23:48.740 investigation or called
00:23:50.160 for your firing or what
00:23:51.900 happened there yeah I
00:23:53.520 mean I'm really quoting
00:23:54.300 from what's publicly
00:23:55.480 reported the verge did a
00:23:56.740 whole big piece on it on
00:23:57.660 Wednesday so I you know
00:23:58.540 again I'm not citing my
00:23:59.580 experience I'm really just
00:24:00.520 quoting the public record
00:24:02.220 but yeah apparently
00:24:03.160 according to that verge
00:24:04.460 reporting yeah there was a
00:24:05.880 petition apparently
00:24:06.500 circulated with a number
00:24:07.480 of signatures that again
00:24:09.160 cited and quoted some of
00:24:11.160 the passages in the book
00:24:12.060 in my opinion out of
00:24:13.080 context and made a lot of
00:24:16.440 allegations there and
00:24:17.380 apparently that's that's
00:24:18.940 what was behind my firing
00:24:20.480 right so and then Apple
00:24:22.980 released a statement about
00:24:24.660 your firing which at least
00:24:26.900 to my eye gave some top
00:24:28.640 spin to it which I gotta
00:24:31.860 think is defamatory in some
00:24:34.620 sense I mean they you know
00:24:35.500 it's clear you're being
00:24:36.760 fired for what they now
00:24:38.880 deem to be the bad optics
00:24:40.000 of your book written several
00:24:42.520 years ago but the language
00:24:45.060 they used to describe this
00:24:46.740 made it sound like you know
00:24:48.620 you had done something
00:24:50.160 untoward as an employee at
00:24:52.540 Apple right like you had I
00:24:54.860 should have the language here
00:24:55.820 I could get it but it's do you
00:24:57.440 know what I'm referring to I
00:24:58.940 do I very much do yeah the
00:25:00.860 language they use the statement
00:25:02.080 they issued on I believe it
00:25:03.520 was Wednesday evening was a
00:25:05.340 statement along the lines of
00:25:06.580 you know I forget exactly but
00:25:08.380 hateful behavior and the word
00:25:10.880 behavior was definitely used
00:25:12.080 because that's what stuck in
00:25:12.740 my head right is not
00:25:13.720 acceptable at Apple in the
00:25:15.620 context of being asked about
00:25:17.340 my situation and I agree with
00:25:19.160 you I think I think it is
00:25:19.920 defamatory because I
00:25:21.920 vigorously allege that that it
00:25:25.760 is categorically false to
00:25:26.820 suggest that my firing was in
00:25:28.560 any way related to my behavior
00:25:30.320 or performance at Apple it
00:25:32.200 absolutely was not I spent you
00:25:34.320 know three and a half weeks on
00:25:35.680 zoom calls with engineers you
00:25:37.480 know doing the job of an
00:25:38.680 engineer and that's it and so
00:25:40.820 yes I I very much disagree with
00:25:43.080 that statement from Apple the big
00:25:45.040 picture here is that you know
00:25:46.080 you're now you are sharing an
00:25:49.360 experience with several people who
00:25:53.460 could be named who have been you
00:25:55.860 fired or otherwise canceled based
00:25:58.860 on things they have written
00:26:01.460 previously and in your case it's
00:26:06.220 especially strange because as we
00:26:07.700 said this what you wrote though you
00:26:09.980 know I can actually see the basis
00:26:11.300 for someone thinking all right this
00:26:13.760 isn't a guy I want to spend a lot
00:26:14.940 of time with given the the angle you
00:26:17.300 took there it's pretty obviously a
00:26:20.120 persona but the crucial thing to
00:26:22.580 realize is that all of the liberal
00:26:25.080 intelligentsia of the time you know
00:26:27.260 the the distant epoch of five years
00:26:30.020 ago got a chance to process this and
00:26:34.140 this was just a and it was almost
00:26:36.920 universally accepted as a valuable
00:26:40.460 insight into what's going on and what
00:26:42.820 it's like to work on the inside of the
00:26:45.040 tech juggernaut and we're clearly at a
00:26:48.920 moment where this attitude of intolerance
00:26:53.460 to anything remotely edgy is is
00:26:59.100 clearly stifling self-expression in the
00:27:01.860 present and it will stifle it on a go
00:27:03.900 forward basis because everyone can draw
00:27:06.540 the obvious lesson here I mean it's
00:27:08.200 it's pretty clear that a writer like
00:27:10.600 Philip Roth you know were he to still
00:27:13.420 be alive would be probably unpublishable
00:27:16.920 unpublishable now and and even unhireable I
00:27:20.340 mean it's just the distance between him
00:27:21.960 as a person and the various protagonist
00:27:24.380 you know awful protagonists he created
00:27:26.860 one can only speculate about what's the
00:27:29.560 true worldview of Philip Roth but it's
00:27:31.980 easy to see that that kind of artistic
00:27:34.300 expression and granted you're writing
00:27:36.680 you were writing nonfiction but still
00:27:39.260 there's a a shocking liability to anything
00:27:45.100 but the most anodyne kind of expression
00:27:48.060 now and people will draw the obvious
00:27:51.140 lesson it's just it's not worth paying the
00:27:53.720 price if you have aspirations to do
00:27:56.920 anything else other than be a an artist
00:27:59.500 who's going to be vilified by half of
00:28:02.180 society how do you think about this in
00:28:04.420 terms of the effect this kind of thing is
00:28:08.120 likely to have on just people finding their
00:28:10.940 own voice in any kind of creative field
00:28:13.640 you know I agree it is very stifling I
00:28:16.520 mean it's funny I was on I was on with
00:28:18.820 Kara Swisher and other reporters on
00:28:21.560 Twitter spaces last night and they
00:28:22.920 actually had people up to ask me often
00:28:24.760 very pointed and you know somewhat angry
00:28:26.380 questions and you know one of the
00:28:28.500 questions asked me a question it's like
00:28:29.600 how do you defend what you said in other
00:28:32.300 words like do you believe what you wrote
00:28:34.000 in that book and my answer was you know I
00:28:37.000 don't I don't think that's the right
00:28:38.960 question to ask I mean I agreed with her
00:28:40.720 in the sense of like if my book or that
00:28:42.180 passage for example had been an op-ed
00:28:44.080 column in a newspaper in which indeed I
00:28:46.420 am saying Antonio Garcia Martinez
00:28:48.020 believes that the world should be
00:28:49.240 ordered this way then I should be called
00:28:51.040 to account for my beliefs and say well
00:28:52.900 why do you want the world to look that
00:28:54.260 way right but what I was writing a work
00:28:56.580 of literary nonfiction even though it's
00:28:58.420 a memoir and even though in theory it's
00:28:59.960 about real events it's not a claim is
00:29:02.620 not a claim to truth right nor is it a
00:29:05.780 normative claim about how the world
00:29:07.040 should be I mean it's far from that right
00:29:08.960 I mean the example that that comes to
00:29:10.760 mind is less full of broth but somebody
00:29:12.580 like say Tom Wolfe's electric kool-aid
00:29:15.040 acid test which for those who aren't
00:29:16.300 familiar to classic work of what's now
00:29:18.320 called sort of gonzo journalism in which
00:29:20.660 the journalist kind of injects themselves
00:29:22.600 the narrative and it's told in this very
00:29:24.580 hyperbolic voice I mean it's clearly the
00:29:26.380 sort of the sort of tone I was going
00:29:28.160 for and you know it was Tom Wolfe asked
00:29:30.880 at the time by the way the topic of the
00:29:33.180 story is sort of the summer of love and
00:29:34.740 hanging around with Ken Kesey and some
00:29:36.620 of the literary scene a lot of drugs a
00:29:38.820 lot of irresponsible behavior you know
00:29:40.500 would someone have asked Tom Wolfe at
00:29:42.520 the time well do you do you support drug
00:29:44.340 use I mean maybe he would have I mean
00:29:46.460 certainly you know latter-day Puritans
00:29:48.560 and Victorians and sort of deep social
00:29:50.640 conservatives probably did object to the
00:29:52.180 book for those reasons but certainly
00:29:53.520 nobody in the cultural world would have
00:29:55.000 said well Tom Wolfe shouldn't have
00:29:56.100 written in that tone and he should have
00:29:57.820 hedged every mention of every acid trip
00:30:00.380 with a little like mini lecture on why
00:30:02.080 drug use is bad no one would have
00:30:03.640 claimed that right and yet he and yet
00:30:06.260 somehow we've we've lost that right
00:30:07.980 there there is no space between a
00:30:10.800 descriptive and literary description
00:30:12.960 you know approach to something and the
00:30:15.300 normative description like everyone has
00:30:16.960 to be advocating for something all the
00:30:18.640 time and it must be of the utmost moral
00:30:20.660 purity right that is the register in
00:30:22.400 which almost everything is written now
00:30:23.640 and yes I find it deeply stifling
00:30:25.260 because and I tweeted this right there
00:30:27.440 have been ideologies in the past among
00:30:29.440 them communism and Nazism that felt that
00:30:31.600 all art must be in service to a
00:30:33.540 political end that art cannot exist for
00:30:35.500 its own sake to quote the sort of
00:30:37.040 Oscar Wilde cliche and I just don't
00:30:38.940 believe that I don't think I don't think
00:30:40.360 art should always serve a political
00:30:41.360 purpose right if anything it should
00:30:43.240 undermine the current politics but
00:30:45.020 reflexively I think we should probably
00:30:46.460 describe the passage because I don't
00:30:49.380 know what ideas is is forming in the
00:30:51.660 minds of our listeners who who haven't
00:30:53.660 read about this story yet but I think in
00:30:55.980 context it's easily understood to be the
00:30:59.960 voice of a kind of persona so do you
00:31:01.460 want to read it or summarize it or you
00:31:03.520 want me to find it funny I told the
00:31:05.280 story of the passage and cars thing it
00:31:07.020 was one of these there so I had a I had
00:31:08.600 an editor it just so happens a female
00:31:10.620 editor and she improved the book in a
00:31:13.600 huge way and I thank her so much because
00:31:15.240 the book was a mess but this is one
00:31:16.940 place where for whatever reason I put
00:31:18.160 my foot down and said no no come on we
00:31:20.600 have to continue it and she actually
00:31:21.840 wasn't against it necessarily just
00:31:23.300 thought that the joke had sort of run
00:31:24.900 too long and that it was time to wrap
00:31:26.560 it up because I turned in 700 pages for
00:31:28.480 what was supposed to be a 300 page
00:31:30.400 beach read and clearly it wasn't so
00:31:32.380 yeah the context here one of the
00:31:34.320 subthreads and again this is one of
00:31:36.280 these things you don't realize until
00:31:37.460 you write a book is that you can't
00:31:39.220 just write a kind of wonky take on look
00:31:41.300 this is how ad tech and venture you
00:31:43.680 know financing and IPOs work like
00:31:46.920 that's not enough if you want to cross
00:31:48.400 into the mainstream like that's not
00:31:49.560 enough you've got to inject some
00:31:51.260 personal story into it and so rightly
00:31:53.780 or wrongly and I think in retrospect I
00:31:55.320 regret it I inject a lot of my
00:31:57.100 personal life in it to kind of jazz it
00:31:58.800 up and I was literally like my life to
00:32:00.460 be honest is really not that
00:32:01.500 interesting nor that edgy so I was
00:32:03.320 literally milking it for as much as I
00:32:04.760 could and one of the one of the racy
00:32:06.620 bits I guess is that indeed I I had a
00:32:09.960 child with a woman I barely knew we had
00:32:11.520 just started dating you know she got
00:32:13.320 pregnant she was gonna have it and we
00:32:15.560 actually made a go of it we moved in
00:32:16.920 together and we're like at the time I
00:32:18.820 was completely in love and yeah on we
00:32:21.420 go like you kind of roll with it it's
00:32:22.720 like okay I'm doing I'm doing all this
00:32:24.240 risky startup stuff and then on top of
00:32:26.120 it there's a kid but I guess I was my
00:32:28.080 mindset was just in that mode of
00:32:29.480 accepting all risk and so this passage
00:32:31.720 comes at the moment in which you know
00:32:34.360 she says she's pregnant and I'm like
00:32:36.680 mulling it over and I'm like well yeah
00:32:38.900 I'm you know I'm infatuated with this
00:32:40.900 woman well we'll try to make a go of
00:32:42.460 it and you know I had just come off like
00:32:45.180 everybody in their 20s and 30s living
00:32:46.900 in some coastal city on the whole online
00:32:49.700 dating thing you know for better or worse
00:32:51.980 right and so the statement is one of
00:32:54.460 these flip saying that we've all said
00:32:55.880 and if someone's gonna claim to me they
00:32:57.220 haven't made a statement of the form
00:32:58.520 you know all men from bloody blah are
00:33:01.140 bloody blah everyone has said that
00:33:02.400 who's been on the online dating trip I
00:33:04.400 just I wrote it in prose in a slightly
00:33:06.340 yeah admittedly offensive way okay I'll
00:33:09.220 just start from like the top of that
00:33:10.940 column of text she had wild green eyes
00:33:13.740 with unnatural red spots in her irises
00:33:15.840 when you pulled close reminiscent of
00:33:17.880 that Afghan girl from the National
00:33:19.180 Geographic cover her personality was
00:33:21.840 flinty and rough and as leathery as her
00:33:23.860 skin she had spent years between
00:33:26.100 various jobs backpacking around the
00:33:27.800 rougher parts of the world she was an
00:33:29.620 imposing broad-shouldered presence
00:33:31.320 six feet tall and bare feet and towering
00:33:34.140 over me in heels most women in the bay
00:33:36.900 are soft and weak cosseted and naive
00:33:38.840 despite their claims of worldliness and
00:33:40.540 generally full of shit I mean that's it
00:33:42.700 I guess oh well our well and so yeah
00:33:44.920 that's basically yeah I mean it goes it
00:33:46.940 goes on and on there's an there's an
00:33:48.120 entire passage here I don't want to bore
00:33:49.800 your listeners but that's that's basically
00:33:51.440 but that's the that's the thing that
00:33:53.040 got you cancelled or fired so you
00:33:55.640 generalizing about most women in the
00:33:58.460 bay area and clearly in this context
00:34:01.660 isn't the service of justifying your
00:34:03.980 admiration for this one woman who's
00:34:07.520 entirely different from the
00:34:09.400 generalization and but again the larger
00:34:13.000 context is of a narrative voice that is
00:34:17.100 just relentlessly taking down everything
00:34:20.740 in sight including yourself right right
00:34:23.300 I mean you you're also an object of
00:34:25.540 derision in the book and I mean there's a
00:34:30.080 liability to all this I mean for a for a
00:34:32.040 journalist or a memoirist to emulate Tom
00:34:36.020 Wolfe in in gonzo mode or Hunter S.
00:34:38.400 Thompson I believe you've you've mentioned
00:34:40.400 that you were you had him in mind as an
00:34:42.360 exemplar it's probably a bad idea in the
00:34:47.840 same way that emulating Nietzsche is a
00:34:49.700 bad idea for a philosopher and it's not
00:34:51.540 that these guys were geniuses and can't
00:34:53.180 be emulated although Nietzsche certainly
00:34:55.820 was a certain type of genius but it's just
00:34:59.320 that much of their rule breaking comes off
00:35:02.140 as silly and self-aggrandizing by turns
00:35:06.020 right it's just it's if someone's not
00:35:08.080 going to like you on the basis of this
00:35:09.620 book if they're going to collapse you the
00:35:11.300 author down to the persona you're
00:35:13.220 presenting it's that you seem too cynical
00:35:16.440 and too willing to break trust with with
00:35:20.080 everything but what you can't honestly
00:35:23.660 read from a passage like this is that this
00:35:27.720 is a a careful statement about what you
00:35:31.900 believe women are like anywhere and the
00:35:36.280 the connection that people at Apple I'm
00:35:39.020 sure we're making and I believe I've seen
00:35:41.340 some statements to this effect since is
00:35:44.180 that this passage is of a piece with you
00:35:46.120 know claiming that women can't be you
00:35:48.620 know good tech entrepreneurs or good
00:35:50.520 software engineers or it's the misreading
00:35:53.720 of the James Damore memo and that wasn't
00:35:55.400 even what was in James Damore's memo and
00:35:57.580 when he was fired from Google but that's
00:36:00.460 how it got summarized for people as a
00:36:02.420 basically a misogynistic statement about
00:36:05.260 the limitations of women and tech and I'll
00:36:08.140 just point out a a further irony here is
00:36:10.420 that one of your your brief colleagues at
00:36:14.000 Apple who I'm sure is still at Apple is
00:36:17.320 Dr. Dre whose whose rap lyrics on the
00:36:21.420 topic of women are quite a bit more
00:36:24.000 pointed than anything in your book and he
00:36:27.700 hasn't been canceled yet I believe he's
00:36:29.860 also trailing some credible allegations of
00:36:33.080 violence against women how has that played
00:36:36.200 out in this aftermath yeah as soon as this
00:36:39.180 thing broke so many people DM me with
00:36:41.540 stuff about Dr. Dre I'll admit I'm not a
00:36:44.060 big rap rap fan or Dr. Dre fan so I had to
00:36:46.660 go look it up but I mean his lyrics are
00:36:48.420 hideous let's let's just be clear right and
00:36:50.820 as far as I understand he's still currently
00:36:53.580 employed at Apple and indeed I think yeah
00:36:56.180 there was credible allegations of actual
00:36:57.940 physical violence toward women when he was
00:36:59.640 younger so yeah I agree there's an element
00:37:02.120 of hypocrisy there I would also stress I
00:37:04.040 think what you what you first mentioned
00:37:05.480 right that if there's a tone and derision
00:37:06.880 in my writing or in this writing that
00:37:09.340 derision is almost universal and in fact
00:37:11.380 the ultimate butt of all the jokes that
00:37:13.940 the fool in chaos monkeys is me at the end
00:37:17.180 of the day like I don't I don't come off
00:37:18.680 writing into the sunset winning in the end
00:37:20.620 right like the persona I created that you
00:37:23.340 you can feel free to think he's an asshole
00:37:25.220 guess what the asshole loses in the end
00:37:27.260 right the moral justice of the universe is
00:37:30.300 restored at the end of the book that's
00:37:32.840 what I think people aren't picking up like
00:37:34.000 oh he's this arrogant asshole yeah the
00:37:36.340 character makes a fool of himself and
00:37:38.360 loses almost everything by the end again
00:37:41.040 but that would require actually reading
00:37:42.300 the book which I don't think many of my
00:37:43.720 critics actually have so where do you go
00:37:46.060 from here and I guess we could just open
00:37:47.520 this conversation to any thoughts you have
00:37:50.320 about what it's going to take to turn the
00:37:52.740 tide in tech and media and culture
00:37:56.280 generally I mean this is all again this is
00:37:58.180 you are a single thread now of a quickly
00:38:04.240 unraveling tapestry of what you know it's
00:38:08.280 hard to know where to point the way back
00:38:10.260 machine but it seems like we're we're
00:38:12.700 devolving with respect to our ability to
00:38:16.580 have a sane conversation about moral and
00:38:19.900 political norms here where everything is
00:38:23.040 being politicized and people's outrage is
00:38:26.040 always turned up to 11 what's happening in
00:38:28.700 your case and what do you think is is and
00:38:31.140 and should happen in the culture more
00:38:33.660 widely I think you're right Sam I mean my
00:38:35.900 my story is nothing it's one little
00:38:37.900 brain
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00:39:16.840 you