Making Sense - Sam Harris - July 23, 2021


#256 — A Contagion of Bad Ideas


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 26 minutes

Words per Minute

146.44797

Word Count

12,711

Sentence Count

544

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

8


Summary

Vaccine hesitancy is a symptom of the general condition of misinformation and disinformation that surrounds vaccines in general, and the controversial COVID vaccines in particular. And as the pace of vaccination has slowed to a crawl in the United States and the need for vaccination globally has slowed down, the problem of misinformation about vaccines has only grown worse. In this episode, I discuss why this is happening, and why we should be worried about it, and how we can do something about it. It's really a simple question: Why are so many people not getting vaccinated? And what can we do about it? And the answer is simple: it's because they don't know what they're talking about, and because they're misinformed. And that's why they're spreading it around, and spreading it in order to spread it to other people, and not in a way that makes sense to them. And if you don't get vaccinated, you're not going to get better at it, because it's going to make you stupid and uneducated, and you're going to be deluged with false information and misinformation, and that's just as bad as it is to you as a result. If you want to support what I'm doing here, you need to subscribe to The Making Sense Podcast, where you'll get access to all the latest episodes and access to the most up-to-date episodes of the most popular podcast on the most important topics in the world, you'll be helping me make sense of it all. You'll get the most out of it! Subscribe to the podcast I've ever heard of it, so you can be part of the conversation, and learn more about the making sense that I've been making sense, and have the most of it . I'm making sense and you'll have the chance to understand the most common things you can do in the most effective way possible, not only by listening to it all, and it'll be the most powerful way to help make sense, not just the most influential people in the best possible way possible so you won't be left feeling smarter, and more informed, and less dumb, and they'll be able to understand it all the more so, and so much more of it in the end, and most of your day to do it all all in less time and less of it will be less of a day, you'll know more about it


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:24.460 This is Sam Harris.
00:00:25.700 Okay, well, today's podcast is yet another PSA.
00:00:32.700 There have been many of them of late.
00:00:35.980 Needless to say, if you want to support what I'm doing here,
00:00:39.780 the way to do that is to subscribe to the podcast at samharris.org.
00:00:45.420 It's really the subscribers that make all of this possible.
00:00:49.620 But given the kinds of topics I touch here,
00:00:52.040 it's with some regularity that I feel the need to put out a podcast
00:00:56.080 in a form where the most people will hear every word of it.
00:01:01.560 And today, the topic that could not suffer a paywall
00:01:05.040 is what is now universally described as vaccine hesitancy
00:01:11.140 and the general condition of misinformation and disinformation
00:01:14.640 that surrounds vaccines in general, but the COVID mRNA vaccines in particular.
00:01:22.740 I think anyone who has listened to the podcast in the last year or so
00:01:26.660 will have no doubt about where I stand on the topic of the COVID vaccines.
00:01:32.120 But I haven't focused on it because it seems like there really has not been
00:01:36.240 all that much to say, and it's just a general air of futility around
00:01:42.740 persuading anyone who has decided for one reason or another
00:01:47.000 that they're really worried about the COVID vaccines
00:01:51.100 and not all that worried about COVID.
00:01:54.460 That's the bifurcation here.
00:01:56.800 We have a very large cohort in our society
00:02:00.200 who think that COVID is not an especially big deal.
00:02:06.540 At minimum, the dangers of it have been exaggerated.
00:02:12.200 Of course, there are many millions of people who think it's a hoax
00:02:14.740 and that there is, in fact, no problem at all.
00:02:18.780 In any case, there's a spectrum of opinion on this side
00:02:22.280 wherein people are really not at all concerned about getting COVID,
00:02:27.660 but they're quite concerned about the dangers
00:02:32.480 or imagined dangers associated with the vaccines for COVID.
00:02:37.960 And then there are the rest of us
00:02:39.580 who have the valence on those terms flipped
00:02:45.240 and were quite concerned about COVID
00:02:47.440 and not especially concerned about the risk of vaccines.
00:02:54.200 Rather, we were incredibly eager to get vaccinated
00:02:57.120 and to get our kids vaccinated.
00:02:59.460 And we are fairly aghast at and increasingly troubled by
00:03:03.520 the thinking and unjustified certainties
00:03:09.380 coming from the other camp.
00:03:12.140 If people agree about anything on this topic,
00:03:14.280 it's that you can't shame the other side into compliance, right?
00:03:20.260 And to talk down to them to cast the vaccine hesitant as stupid or uneducated
00:03:29.680 is generally deemed counterproductive.
00:03:32.760 And it's also, in many cases, just not true
00:03:35.080 because there are many smart people who fall into this camp,
00:03:38.540 as will become obvious.
00:03:39.540 Anyway, the fact that this is possible,
00:03:42.620 the fact that one can be smart and aggressively misinformed
00:03:48.360 and misinforming of others,
00:03:51.720 attests to just how bad the problem of misinformation
00:03:54.800 has grown in our society.
00:03:58.240 Anyway, I was avoiding this topic
00:03:59.940 because, again, I don't think there's that much to say on it.
00:04:02.940 But it's pretty obvious now
00:04:05.520 as the pace of vaccination
00:04:07.380 has slowed to a crawl in the United States.
00:04:11.640 And the need for vaccination globally
00:04:15.320 is fairly excruciating.
00:04:19.000 And the Delta variant
00:04:20.040 has tipped us into a condition
00:04:21.960 where even those of us who are vaccinated
00:04:24.020 can no longer enjoy the light at the end of the tunnel
00:04:28.400 because we have been pushed back into that tunnel
00:04:31.320 by, frankly, the confusion of our neighbors.
00:04:36.440 The tipping point for me the other day
00:04:38.960 was I was eating at a restaurant
00:04:40.960 and noticed that about half of the waiters
00:04:43.660 were wearing masks and half weren't.
00:04:47.620 And I asked one of them,
00:04:50.200 well, what's the policy here?
00:04:51.360 Are we wearing masks or not wearing masks?
00:04:55.060 And he said, well, the policy of the restaurant
00:04:56.880 was that if you're vaccinated,
00:04:58.560 you don't have to wear a mask.
00:05:00.080 And if you're not vaccinated, you do.
00:05:02.820 I chewed on that for a few minutes
00:05:05.380 after he walked away.
00:05:07.200 And then I looked at all of these young men,
00:05:10.600 they were all men,
00:05:12.360 with kind of a fresh set of eyes
00:05:14.280 and realized that there is no reason
00:05:17.960 these guys aren't vaccinated
00:05:20.780 but for the fact that
00:05:24.640 they have some spurious memes
00:05:27.860 and bad ideas bouncing around their brains.
00:05:32.340 And they were very likely put there
00:05:34.120 by some of my friends,
00:05:37.160 some of my fellow podcasters
00:05:38.700 who have either gone down this rapid hole themselves
00:05:43.420 or just platformed people
00:05:46.440 who spread misinformation
00:05:49.980 about vaccines and about COVID
00:05:52.340 and not known enough to push back
00:05:55.940 in real time against these ideas.
00:05:59.400 And in sitting in this restaurant,
00:06:02.040 looking at these waiters
00:06:05.240 who are all podcast listeners,
00:06:08.700 I just know it,
00:06:09.820 I've spoken to a few of them about it,
00:06:12.080 and they're advertising
00:06:14.140 their dangerous confusion
00:06:16.800 on their faces
00:06:18.220 by wearing masks
00:06:19.900 that would otherwise be unnecessary
00:06:21.740 for them.
00:06:23.780 This was before the explosion
00:06:26.020 of the Delta variant in my city.
00:06:29.440 I just figure I have to say something.
00:06:32.220 So, the goal of today's podcast
00:06:34.500 is to present a very simple case
00:06:39.380 which hopefully stands a chance
00:06:42.340 of persuading some number
00:06:45.360 of the vaccine hesitant.
00:06:48.200 And the punchline is this.
00:06:50.240 Even if you accept
00:06:51.800 the worst claims
00:06:53.460 about the risks
00:06:54.720 of the mRNA vaccines,
00:06:56.600 which are almost guaranteed
00:06:59.340 to be false,
00:07:01.600 but even accepting them,
00:07:04.020 the case for getting vaccinated,
00:07:05.340 is absolutely clear-cut
00:07:07.540 given what else we know
00:07:09.440 about the effects
00:07:11.020 of the vaccines
00:07:11.820 in preventing disease
00:07:13.100 and about the effects
00:07:14.620 of COVID itself.
00:07:17.320 Right?
00:07:17.960 It's a very simple argument,
00:07:19.300 but it requires
00:07:20.600 that we get into
00:07:21.980 some of the details here
00:07:24.100 about what's being claimed
00:07:25.320 and about what we know
00:07:26.920 thus far
00:07:27.920 from what is really
00:07:30.820 one of the largest
00:07:32.180 medical experiments
00:07:33.520 ever performed.
00:07:35.260 We now have over
00:07:36.180 a hundred million people
00:07:37.320 in the U.S. alone
00:07:38.340 who are fully vaccinated.
00:07:40.840 We have an extraordinary
00:07:42.040 amount of information
00:07:43.040 about the dangers here
00:07:45.820 or lack thereof.
00:07:48.120 So, anyway,
00:07:48.820 I wanted to produce
00:07:49.600 a document
00:07:50.320 that could be spread around
00:07:52.060 to the people in your life
00:07:53.720 who may still be hesitating
00:07:56.100 to get vaccinated.
00:07:58.060 And to help me do this,
00:07:58.960 I decided to speak with
00:08:00.080 Dr. Eric Topol.
00:08:01.680 Eric is a truly
00:08:04.360 world-renowned cardiologist.
00:08:07.200 He's also the executive
00:08:08.740 vice president
00:08:09.400 of Scripps Research
00:08:11.540 and one of the top ten
00:08:13.600 most cited
00:08:14.580 medical researchers.
00:08:16.740 He's the author
00:08:17.640 of several books,
00:08:19.420 The Patient Will See You Now,
00:08:21.600 The Creative Destruction
00:08:22.700 of Medicine,
00:08:24.120 and Deep Medicine,
00:08:25.880 How Artificial Intelligence
00:08:26.900 Can Make Healthcare
00:08:27.700 Human Again.
00:08:28.380 And even more relevantly,
00:08:31.060 for our purposes,
00:08:32.720 he's been very active
00:08:33.560 on Twitter
00:08:34.060 for the last
00:08:35.380 year and a half or so,
00:08:37.600 countering
00:08:38.180 some of the crazy ideas
00:08:39.880 that have been spread
00:08:40.840 around COVID
00:08:41.860 and around vaccines.
00:08:43.860 And you can follow him
00:08:44.820 on Twitter
00:08:45.180 at
00:08:45.720 Eric Topol,
00:08:47.300 E-R-I-C-T-O-P-O-L,
00:08:50.520 and I recommend you do that.
00:08:52.400 He's continually surfacing
00:08:53.680 useful articles.
00:08:54.780 But I thought Eric
00:08:56.580 was one of the best people
00:08:57.560 I could find
00:08:58.740 to walk me through
00:08:59.780 what we currently know
00:09:01.360 or have every reason
00:09:02.480 to believe
00:09:03.000 about vaccines
00:09:04.640 and about the state
00:09:06.060 of our response
00:09:07.060 to COVID.
00:09:08.640 We discuss
00:09:09.600 the general problem
00:09:11.380 of misinformation,
00:09:13.300 the political
00:09:14.260 and social siloing
00:09:15.740 that people experience
00:09:17.580 in our society.
00:09:19.020 We cover concerns
00:09:20.620 about mRNA vaccines,
00:09:22.900 the emergency use
00:09:23.720 authorization by the FDA,
00:09:25.720 what that means
00:09:26.460 and what it doesn't mean,
00:09:28.160 and the false claims
00:09:29.760 made about it.
00:09:31.340 We talk about
00:09:31.740 the effectiveness
00:09:32.300 of the vaccines
00:09:34.000 and differentiate
00:09:35.480 vaccine efficacy
00:09:36.540 from effectiveness.
00:09:38.580 We discuss
00:09:39.580 the Delta variant,
00:09:41.220 the misuse
00:09:41.980 of the Vaccine
00:09:42.920 Adverse Event
00:09:43.580 Reporting System,
00:09:44.920 the VAERS database.
00:09:46.720 We discuss concerns
00:09:48.540 about the long-term
00:09:49.420 side effects
00:09:50.060 of the COVID vaccines,
00:09:51.460 bad incentives
00:09:53.140 in medicine,
00:09:54.540 ivermectin,
00:09:55.980 government and corporate
00:09:57.000 censorship,
00:09:58.900 and touch upon
00:10:01.000 vaccine mandates
00:10:02.440 and other topics.
00:10:05.200 Anyway,
00:10:06.280 as you'll hear
00:10:06.760 in the discussion,
00:10:08.500 neither I
00:10:09.260 nor Eric
00:10:09.880 have any conceivable
00:10:11.740 conflict of interest
00:10:13.160 here.
00:10:14.440 In fact,
00:10:15.180 Eric has distinguished
00:10:16.020 himself in the past
00:10:17.100 for going after
00:10:18.780 big pharma.
00:10:20.480 He had his career
00:10:21.820 fairly derailed
00:10:23.240 at one point
00:10:23.940 in his battle
00:10:25.620 against Merck
00:10:26.400 over Vioxx,
00:10:28.380 and he was very much
00:10:30.060 on the heroic side
00:10:31.240 of the good
00:10:32.460 in that battle.
00:10:34.420 Neither of us
00:10:35.560 have an idealized
00:10:37.140 picture of
00:10:38.300 the pharmaceutical
00:10:39.320 industry
00:10:40.020 or the incentives
00:10:41.220 that might drive
00:10:42.680 any specific decision
00:10:44.240 there.
00:10:44.540 the only reason
00:10:46.780 for this podcast
00:10:48.160 is I'm growing
00:10:50.600 increasingly concerned
00:10:51.760 about misinformation
00:10:53.860 leading to
00:10:56.340 needless
00:10:57.140 illness,
00:10:58.600 disability,
00:10:59.480 and even death
00:11:00.740 in our society
00:11:01.940 and the world over.
00:11:04.100 So,
00:11:04.540 with that said,
00:11:06.020 I hope you find
00:11:06.580 this podcast useful,
00:11:08.060 and now I bring you
00:11:09.140 Eric Topol.
00:11:10.280 I am here
00:11:17.400 with Dr. Eric Topol.
00:11:18.960 Eric,
00:11:19.300 thanks for joining
00:11:19.760 me again.
00:11:20.740 Great to be with you,
00:11:21.560 Sam.
00:11:22.680 So,
00:11:23.360 let's say you've been
00:11:24.420 on the podcast,
00:11:25.120 I forget when that was,
00:11:26.120 it was a while back,
00:11:26.940 but let's briefly
00:11:28.300 introduce you
00:11:29.740 properly.
00:11:30.880 How do you describe
00:11:31.700 your background
00:11:33.380 and current
00:11:34.420 perch
00:11:34.960 in medicine?
00:11:36.380 Well,
00:11:36.900 I'm an old dog.
00:11:38.060 I've been around
00:11:38.920 for a while now.
00:11:41.240 You know,
00:11:41.460 in the early years,
00:11:43.460 well,
00:11:43.920 I was a cardiologist,
00:11:44.920 but research was more
00:11:46.680 in clinical trials,
00:11:47.820 and then in the mid-90s
00:11:49.320 it switched to genomics
00:11:50.680 and digital medicine,
00:11:52.640 and so I'm at
00:11:54.280 Scripps Research,
00:11:55.380 I'm a professor
00:11:56.200 of molecular medicine
00:11:57.400 here,
00:11:58.760 and also executive
00:12:00.260 vice president
00:12:00.920 of the Scripps Research
00:12:01.920 Institution.
00:12:03.220 Nice,
00:12:04.000 nice.
00:12:04.320 Well,
00:12:04.460 so I'm talking
00:12:05.720 to you today
00:12:06.400 just because,
00:12:07.000 you know,
00:12:07.180 I know you're
00:12:07.960 a wonderful communicator
00:12:09.880 of science
00:12:10.920 and medicine,
00:12:12.980 and just,
00:12:13.340 you know,
00:12:13.480 you can just help
00:12:14.580 people think about
00:12:15.420 what is rational
00:12:16.480 on this topic,
00:12:18.200 and also you've been
00:12:19.680 very active
00:12:20.480 on Twitter
00:12:21.620 throughout the pandemic,
00:12:23.320 just forwarding articles
00:12:25.120 which you helpfully
00:12:26.680 highlight for people,
00:12:28.000 and just,
00:12:29.380 you know,
00:12:30.040 cutting through
00:12:30.820 what has become
00:12:32.380 a,
00:12:33.060 truly a deluge
00:12:34.240 of misinformation
00:12:35.040 and disinformation
00:12:36.200 and conspiracy
00:12:38.440 thinking,
00:12:40.500 you know,
00:12:40.940 malignant fantasies,
00:12:42.400 it was just that
00:12:42.880 we're now dealing
00:12:44.420 with a,
00:12:45.500 an information space
00:12:46.480 that is so contaminated
00:12:47.900 by,
00:12:49.340 you know,
00:12:50.400 the digital
00:12:51.340 entrepreneurship
00:12:52.140 of people
00:12:53.720 with,
00:12:54.080 you know,
00:12:54.340 various convictions
00:12:55.880 that it's just
00:12:57.400 very difficult
00:12:58.200 to get to anything
00:12:59.540 like ground truth
00:13:00.580 around COVID
00:13:02.180 and vaccines
00:13:03.100 and,
00:13:04.100 you know,
00:13:04.800 sound public health
00:13:06.400 advice,
00:13:07.500 and this is
00:13:08.240 coupled to a
00:13:09.440 pervasive distrust
00:13:11.320 in institutions
00:13:13.540 now,
00:13:14.420 people,
00:13:14.900 people distrust
00:13:16.160 the government,
00:13:16.820 they distrust
00:13:17.300 the media,
00:13:18.520 they distrust
00:13:19.460 science
00:13:20.740 and scientists,
00:13:23.640 you know,
00:13:23.860 our medical journals
00:13:25.120 have,
00:13:25.860 have lost
00:13:26.840 standing,
00:13:28.600 certainly organizations
00:13:29.500 like the CDC
00:13:30.280 and the WHO
00:13:31.420 have,
00:13:32.780 you know,
00:13:33.280 fairly immolated
00:13:34.120 their reputations
00:13:35.360 over the last
00:13:36.160 18 months or so
00:13:37.020 and some of this
00:13:38.100 is understandable,
00:13:38.900 I mean,
00:13:39.000 there really has been
00:13:39.620 some terrible failures
00:13:40.940 of public health messaging
00:13:42.520 and instances of
00:13:44.500 hypocrisy
00:13:45.540 and double-think
00:13:46.320 but,
00:13:47.020 you know,
00:13:47.220 rather than
00:13:47.740 perform an autopsy
00:13:49.900 on all of that,
00:13:51.320 I want us to
00:13:51.920 see if we can have
00:13:53.020 a conversation
00:13:53.680 about
00:13:54.300 vaccines
00:13:56.180 and vaccine
00:13:57.180 hesitancy
00:13:57.980 and starting
00:13:59.020 pretty much
00:14:00.040 from first principles
00:14:01.160 and from what
00:14:01.860 we can
00:14:02.300 be reasonably
00:14:03.540 sure about
00:14:04.360 in the current
00:14:05.620 environment.
00:14:06.780 So,
00:14:07.260 you know,
00:14:07.960 I have a few
00:14:08.860 other things
00:14:09.380 I want to say
00:14:09.860 by way of
00:14:11.280 getting us started
00:14:11.860 here,
00:14:12.160 but is there
00:14:12.560 anything you
00:14:12.920 want to say
00:14:13.640 just to kick
00:14:14.640 this off?
00:14:16.320 Well,
00:14:16.760 your points
00:14:17.640 in the intro
00:14:18.700 here are
00:14:19.540 spot on,
00:14:20.480 Sam.
00:14:21.420 The vaccine
00:14:22.480 progression
00:14:23.540 from the
00:14:24.400 sequence
00:14:24.940 of the
00:14:25.980 SARS-CoV-2
00:14:27.600 in January,
00:14:28.840 January 10th
00:14:29.780 to the
00:14:30.800 clinical trial
00:14:31.800 executed,
00:14:33.820 completed
00:14:34.240 in November
00:14:35.820 and rolling
00:14:37.800 out vaccines
00:14:38.680 all in a
00:14:39.360 matter of
00:14:39.760 months
00:14:40.140 is of
00:14:40.780 historic
00:14:41.300 significance.
00:14:42.860 There's never
00:14:43.280 been a vaccine
00:14:44.120 that's been
00:14:44.960 short of
00:14:45.380 eight years
00:14:46.000 as the
00:14:46.320 average
00:14:46.740 and many
00:14:47.900 fail.
00:14:48.880 So,
00:14:49.340 what we have
00:14:50.000 here is
00:14:50.480 one of the
00:14:51.100 greatest triumphs
00:14:52.040 in biomedicine
00:14:53.420 in history
00:14:54.140 and it's
00:14:54.940 very sad
00:14:55.700 to see
00:14:56.080 that being
00:14:56.540 compromised
00:14:57.120 by
00:14:58.160 mis-
00:14:59.500 and
00:14:59.760 dis-
00:15:00.200 information.
00:15:02.160 Okay,
00:15:02.800 so let's
00:15:03.240 just talk
00:15:03.600 about a
00:15:04.160 few
00:15:04.460 background
00:15:05.380 facts
00:15:05.840 here.
00:15:06.140 So,
00:15:06.360 first,
00:15:07.540 despite
00:15:07.940 that
00:15:08.400 triumph
00:15:09.320 of rolling
00:15:09.980 out
00:15:10.320 these
00:15:10.800 vaccines
00:15:11.440 at record
00:15:12.700 pace,
00:15:13.820 the
00:15:14.080 vaccination
00:15:14.500 rates
00:15:15.000 in the
00:15:15.260 U.S.
00:15:15.720 have
00:15:16.000 now
00:15:16.420 plummeted.
00:15:17.080 We're
00:15:17.160 around
00:15:17.620 250,000
00:15:19.100 shots,
00:15:20.280 first shots
00:15:21.360 given a
00:15:22.000 day now,
00:15:22.560 which is
00:15:22.840 like
00:15:23.160 something
00:15:24.160 like
00:15:24.360 one-tenth
00:15:25.000 of where
00:15:25.420 we were
00:15:25.860 at our
00:15:26.240 highest
00:15:26.720 rate.
00:15:28.040 And
00:15:28.240 we'll
00:15:29.680 focus on
00:15:30.100 the U.S.
00:15:30.600 here,
00:15:31.120 but anything
00:15:31.580 we say
00:15:32.060 will apply
00:15:32.520 to other
00:15:32.860 countries
00:15:33.260 where
00:15:33.560 vaccines
00:15:34.200 are
00:15:34.380 available
00:15:34.760 and
00:15:35.180 where
00:15:35.760 a
00:15:36.220 significant
00:15:36.500 percentage
00:15:36.840 of
00:15:37.020 people
00:15:37.280 don't
00:15:37.920 want
00:15:38.100 to
00:15:38.240 get
00:15:38.640 them.
00:15:39.640 But
00:15:39.800 I think
00:15:40.800 we have
00:15:41.420 to
00:15:41.560 recognize
00:15:42.080 that
00:15:42.660 everyone
00:15:43.200 is very
00:15:44.300 likely
00:15:44.560 to be
00:15:44.800 in a
00:15:45.000 bubble
00:15:45.300 of
00:15:46.140 sorts
00:15:46.520 here.
00:15:46.900 So,
00:15:47.120 I think,
00:15:48.800 I mean,
00:15:49.080 I honestly
00:15:49.740 think I
00:15:50.140 only know
00:15:51.180 a few
00:15:52.560 people
00:15:53.040 out of
00:15:53.500 the
00:15:53.740 hundreds
00:15:54.640 of
00:15:54.920 people
00:15:55.140 I
00:15:55.340 know
00:15:55.680 personally,
00:15:57.020 I think
00:15:57.500 I'm only
00:15:57.940 aware of
00:15:58.520 knowing
00:15:58.940 one or
00:15:59.880 two
00:16:00.340 who
00:16:01.080 aren't
00:16:01.380 vaccinated.
00:16:02.840 And I'm
00:16:03.680 sure that
00:16:04.200 anyone who
00:16:04.680 isn't
00:16:04.940 vaccinated
00:16:05.520 is very
00:16:06.600 likely
00:16:06.880 surrounded
00:16:07.440 by people
00:16:08.140 who are
00:16:08.400 not
00:16:08.580 vaccinated.
00:16:09.240 So,
00:16:09.680 this is
00:16:10.120 analogous
00:16:10.720 to what
00:16:11.760 happens
00:16:12.180 with
00:16:12.560 smokers.
00:16:13.940 I think
00:16:14.380 I only
00:16:14.720 know
00:16:15.180 one or
00:16:16.100 two
00:16:16.220 people
00:16:16.520 who still
00:16:16.960 smoke
00:16:17.240 cigarettes,
00:16:18.320 whereas
00:16:18.620 if you
00:16:18.920 smoke
00:16:19.120 cigarettes,
00:16:19.720 I imagine
00:16:20.560 many of
00:16:21.700 your
00:16:21.800 friends
00:16:22.120 are
00:16:22.280 smokers.
00:16:23.420 So,
00:16:23.680 we're
00:16:24.260 impressively
00:16:24.940 siloed
00:16:25.780 here,
00:16:26.460 and this
00:16:27.500 is all
00:16:28.140 making it
00:16:29.380 very difficult
00:16:29.860 to talk
00:16:30.380 about
00:16:30.760 what is
00:16:31.960 rational
00:16:32.440 and
00:16:33.220 responsible,
00:16:34.940 because
00:16:35.520 the siloing
00:16:36.980 is not
00:16:37.880 just
00:16:38.080 social,
00:16:38.600 it's
00:16:38.680 with respect
00:16:39.120 to
00:16:39.360 information
00:16:40.440 and sources
00:16:41.380 of information
00:16:41.960 that one
00:16:42.420 deems
00:16:42.860 credible.
00:16:44.280 There's
00:16:44.420 one
00:16:44.640 difference
00:16:45.080 though about
00:16:45.560 that,
00:16:46.020 Sam.
00:16:46.140 I think
00:16:47.240 you're
00:16:47.940 making
00:16:48.740 an apt
00:16:49.220 comparison
00:16:49.900 to the
00:16:51.000 smoker
00:16:51.440 circle
00:16:52.380 versus
00:16:53.520 the
00:16:53.800 non-smokers,
00:16:54.580 but
00:16:54.740 the
00:16:55.400 difference
00:16:55.780 is that
00:16:56.440 the
00:16:56.640 smoker
00:16:57.080 circuit
00:16:58.040 isn't
00:16:58.540 directly
00:16:59.040 trying
00:16:59.540 to hurt
00:17:00.040 the
00:17:01.080 non-smokers,
00:17:02.280 whereas
00:17:03.100 here we
00:17:03.800 have a
00:17:05.040 harm
00:17:05.480 that's
00:17:06.320 serious,
00:17:06.900 unfortunately.
00:17:08.020 Yeah,
00:17:08.220 it's worse
00:17:08.860 than
00:17:09.120 second-hand
00:17:09.680 smoke
00:17:10.060 coming from
00:17:11.260 the unvaccinated
00:17:13.240 here.
00:17:13.960 It's a
00:17:14.300 flip of the
00:17:14.800 model,
00:17:15.320 you know,
00:17:15.560 the way
00:17:15.920 it was
00:17:16.160 supposed
00:17:16.360 to work,
00:17:16.820 Sam,
00:17:17.140 was that
00:17:17.540 there was
00:17:17.840 this
00:17:18.080 famous
00:17:18.980 herd
00:17:19.400 immunity,
00:17:20.200 which a
00:17:20.500 lot of
00:17:20.700 people had
00:17:21.160 never heard
00:17:21.660 of until
00:17:22.220 they heard
00:17:23.160 of herd
00:17:23.660 immunity.
00:17:24.780 And then
00:17:25.160 that idea
00:17:26.360 was if we
00:17:26.940 could just
00:17:27.280 get 70%
00:17:28.180 of people
00:17:28.660 vaccinated,
00:17:29.960 then the
00:17:30.360 other 30%
00:17:31.700 would benefit
00:17:32.640 because the
00:17:33.240 virus wouldn't
00:17:33.840 be able to
00:17:34.340 find hosts,
00:17:35.520 so that
00:17:35.960 there,
00:17:36.780 the majority,
00:17:38.060 the one
00:17:38.420 bubble,
00:17:39.220 would help
00:17:39.780 the smaller
00:17:40.780 one.
00:17:41.320 But what's
00:17:41.760 happened,
00:17:42.440 unfortunately,
00:17:43.560 is that we
00:17:44.200 have a much
00:17:45.340 more transmissible,
00:17:47.720 contagious version
00:17:49.120 of the virus
00:17:49.680 with Delta.
00:17:50.840 So we've seen
00:17:51.520 a flip of that
00:17:52.260 model where
00:17:53.340 the unvaccinated,
00:17:54.860 because it's
00:17:55.460 substantial minority,
00:17:57.200 are now leading
00:17:58.300 to infections in
00:17:59.560 the vaccinated.
00:18:00.500 And that's not
00:18:01.000 the way it was
00:18:01.480 supposed to work.
00:18:02.140 Yeah, so
00:18:03.780 this is a bit
00:18:04.800 of a stretch
00:18:05.560 psychologically
00:18:06.920 to build a
00:18:08.100 bridge between
00:18:09.040 where we are
00:18:10.380 and where
00:18:11.020 the unvaccinated,
00:18:13.360 the resolutely
00:18:14.360 unvaccinated,
00:18:15.660 are, right?
00:18:16.480 So, I mean,
00:18:17.500 you know,
00:18:17.760 I'm living in a
00:18:18.340 world where
00:18:19.000 I and all
00:18:20.800 of my friends
00:18:21.720 were profoundly
00:18:23.440 impatient
00:18:24.300 to get vaccinated,
00:18:25.540 and many of us
00:18:26.760 were going to
00:18:27.620 vaccine centers
00:18:28.720 early on
00:18:30.140 and lining up
00:18:30.860 for hours,
00:18:32.240 you know,
00:18:32.380 even whole days,
00:18:33.520 hoping to get
00:18:34.280 some overflow
00:18:34.880 vaccine, right?
00:18:35.900 This is now
00:18:36.480 months ago.
00:18:37.680 And now
00:18:38.240 vaccines are
00:18:39.880 ubiquitously
00:18:41.080 available,
00:18:41.560 and we have
00:18:43.260 people who
00:18:44.320 don't want
00:18:44.780 them, right?
00:18:46.020 Right, right.
00:18:47.300 So, but I do
00:18:48.240 think, you
00:18:48.740 know, rather
00:18:49.160 than stigmatize
00:18:51.120 the unvaccinated
00:18:52.220 or put the
00:18:53.400 onus on them
00:18:54.160 in very
00:18:56.340 judgmental
00:18:57.040 terms, I
00:18:57.600 just want to
00:18:58.340 see if we
00:18:58.780 can, I mean,
00:19:00.260 this is a
00:19:00.840 pointless
00:19:01.100 exercise if we
00:19:02.080 can't say
00:19:02.740 something that
00:19:04.060 stands a
00:19:04.480 chance of
00:19:05.020 being persuasive
00:19:06.200 for these
00:19:06.960 people.
00:19:07.580 So, I mean,
00:19:09.160 first, I think
00:19:09.840 to understand
00:19:10.400 who these
00:19:10.740 people are,
00:19:11.380 there's been
00:19:11.680 a fair amount
00:19:12.220 of polling
00:19:12.660 on this.
00:19:13.300 I'm drawing
00:19:14.160 these comments
00:19:15.520 from the
00:19:16.220 Kaiser Family
00:19:16.900 Foundation
00:19:17.440 vaccine
00:19:18.180 monitoring
00:19:18.760 website.
00:19:20.740 So, there
00:19:21.600 are a few
00:19:22.820 ways in which
00:19:23.360 our society
00:19:23.940 is segmented
00:19:25.180 here.
00:19:26.220 The first
00:19:26.760 is obviously
00:19:27.400 political,
00:19:28.240 right?
00:19:28.380 So, there's
00:19:28.640 a left-right
00:19:29.420 divide
00:19:30.220 politically
00:19:30.840 that accounts
00:19:31.980 for a lot
00:19:32.400 of this
00:19:32.660 difference.
00:19:33.180 So, 2%
00:19:34.340 of Democrats
00:19:35.200 say they
00:19:36.200 definitely
00:19:36.740 will not
00:19:37.260 get the
00:19:37.900 vaccine,
00:19:39.000 whereas 23%
00:19:40.280 of Republicans
00:19:40.920 say that.
00:19:41.880 So, there's
00:19:42.180 a, you know,
00:19:42.640 it's a
00:19:42.900 very significant
00:19:43.760 effect, and
00:19:44.340 no surprise
00:19:45.140 there's about
00:19:46.460 a 30%
00:19:47.220 difference in
00:19:48.160 vaccination rates
00:19:49.160 among Democrats
00:19:49.920 and Republicans.
00:19:51.120 86% of
00:19:52.020 Democrats have
00:19:52.680 received at
00:19:53.180 least one
00:19:53.940 dose, and
00:19:55.340 only 52%
00:19:56.880 of Republicans
00:19:57.420 have.
00:19:58.480 And, you
00:19:59.520 know, there
00:19:59.720 have been
00:20:00.040 exceptions to
00:20:00.760 this with
00:20:01.400 respect to
00:20:01.840 public
00:20:02.140 messaging.
00:20:02.980 I mean,
00:20:03.120 some Republicans
00:20:04.740 and right-wing
00:20:06.080 media figures
00:20:07.000 have said,
00:20:08.440 you know,
00:20:08.800 what I would
00:20:09.460 consider the
00:20:10.020 reasonable thing,
00:20:11.620 but many
00:20:12.500 have tended
00:20:13.420 to amplify
00:20:14.040 the message
00:20:14.800 that COVID
00:20:16.020 itself is
00:20:17.580 not really
00:20:18.060 bad.
00:20:18.580 It's, you
00:20:18.860 know, just
00:20:19.180 a flu or
00:20:19.820 maybe even
00:20:20.640 a hoax,
00:20:21.700 but these
00:20:22.200 newfangled
00:20:22.940 COVID vaccines
00:20:24.060 are dangerous.
00:20:25.420 And then you
00:20:26.260 have people
00:20:26.700 like Trump
00:20:27.320 slinking off
00:20:28.500 to get
00:20:28.740 vaccinated in
00:20:29.500 secret without
00:20:30.180 using it as
00:20:30.920 an opportunity
00:20:31.420 to actually
00:20:31.980 send a helpful
00:20:33.380 public health
00:20:34.180 message.
00:20:35.060 So, politics
00:20:35.600 are definitely
00:20:36.440 part of it,
00:20:37.000 but it's not
00:20:37.780 the whole story.
00:20:39.180 Age is also
00:20:39.960 a major variable.
00:20:41.180 So, people
00:20:41.580 over 65 are
00:20:42.620 much more likely
00:20:43.240 to be vaccinated
00:20:43.900 than the young.
00:20:45.240 This is actually
00:20:45.820 fairly rational
00:20:47.000 because, you
00:20:47.640 know, people
00:20:47.940 over 65
00:20:48.760 understand their
00:20:50.580 much greater
00:20:51.080 risk for serious
00:20:52.700 illness or death
00:20:53.780 from COVID.
00:20:55.020 And there's also
00:20:55.520 a rural-urban
00:20:56.880 divide, which
00:20:58.400 is, again,
00:20:58.940 somewhat, if not
00:21:00.700 rational,
00:21:01.340 understandable,
00:21:01.860 because the
00:21:03.300 people living in
00:21:04.260 crowded cities
00:21:05.080 are more likely
00:21:05.960 to get exposed
00:21:07.160 to COVID,
00:21:08.040 and they're more
00:21:09.800 likely to be
00:21:10.240 vaccinated as well.
00:21:11.900 And there's, you
00:21:12.960 know, there are
00:21:13.200 other cuts you
00:21:13.860 can make at this.
00:21:14.560 Education is a
00:21:15.600 variable.
00:21:16.100 College graduates
00:21:16.840 are more likely
00:21:17.440 to be vaccinated
00:21:18.080 than those who
00:21:19.720 haven't finished
00:21:20.380 college or never
00:21:21.580 went.
00:21:22.460 And there's some
00:21:23.300 stratification by
00:21:24.320 race.
00:21:25.180 Whites are more
00:21:25.860 likely to be
00:21:26.300 vaccinated than
00:21:27.100 blacks or
00:21:28.020 Hispanics, but
00:21:29.380 the effect is not
00:21:30.380 that great.
00:21:31.720 And then there are
00:21:32.240 weird pockets where
00:21:34.440 there's a very
00:21:34.880 strong anti-vax
00:21:36.760 sentiment, like the
00:21:38.000 yoga community
00:21:38.920 apparently is very
00:21:40.340 wary of getting
00:21:41.080 vaccinated for
00:21:42.060 COVID.
00:21:43.120 And the reasons,
00:21:43.920 when you poll
00:21:44.600 people in these
00:21:45.520 various groups, the
00:21:47.280 reasons they give
00:21:48.440 for not being
00:21:49.280 vaccinated tend
00:21:51.280 to focus on
00:21:52.700 concerns about
00:21:54.220 the newness of
00:21:55.420 the vaccines,
00:21:56.680 right, and fear
00:21:57.560 of side effects.
00:21:58.780 You know, these
00:21:59.080 are new vaccines,
00:22:00.040 they could not
00:22:01.060 have been fully
00:22:01.640 tested because they
00:22:02.440 were produced so
00:22:03.920 quickly, and
00:22:05.320 therefore they're
00:22:05.960 likely to be
00:22:06.640 dangerous, right?
00:22:07.780 And then you
00:22:08.300 add to this
00:22:09.120 distrust of the
00:22:10.740 government, and
00:22:12.520 also just a
00:22:14.620 belief that they
00:22:15.980 don't actually need
00:22:16.720 a vaccine because
00:22:17.660 the risk of COVID
00:22:19.140 has been greatly
00:22:20.260 exaggerated.
00:22:21.280 This is basically
00:22:22.220 the picture you
00:22:23.340 get of why people
00:22:24.620 are not getting
00:22:25.960 vaccinated.
00:22:27.320 So I think
00:22:27.680 there's two
00:22:28.460 prominent things
00:22:29.520 that you've
00:22:30.040 mentioned that
00:22:31.300 deserve emphasis,
00:22:32.920 Sam.
00:22:33.600 So first, you
00:22:34.760 did cite the
00:22:35.520 Kaiser Family
00:22:36.760 Foundation survey,
00:22:37.800 a large survey
00:22:38.660 of Americans,
00:22:39.960 and in that,
00:22:40.840 one of the most
00:22:41.400 important reasons
00:22:42.260 that people gave,
00:22:44.160 and you can
00:22:44.660 understand it,
00:22:45.720 is that the FDA
00:22:46.660 didn't give full
00:22:48.380 approval yet,
00:22:49.260 and it's still
00:22:50.060 being categorized
00:22:51.820 as an emergency
00:22:52.660 use.
00:22:53.860 And so that,
00:22:54.500 you know, you can
00:22:55.160 understand people
00:22:55.920 being skeptical
00:22:57.000 without this final
00:22:59.180 blessing by the
00:22:59.980 FDA.
00:23:00.860 Then the other
00:23:01.400 thing I think
00:23:02.560 you've alluded to,
00:23:03.440 but can't be
00:23:04.380 emphasized enough,
00:23:05.300 it isn't so
00:23:06.500 much the
00:23:07.080 problem with
00:23:07.640 the unvaccinated,
00:23:09.280 it's the
00:23:10.160 problem of the
00:23:11.320 information being
00:23:12.380 fed to them,
00:23:13.420 which they
00:23:14.260 actually believe
00:23:15.060 these things,
00:23:16.220 because a lot
00:23:16.860 of this is
00:23:17.300 purposeful.
00:23:18.580 A lot of this
00:23:19.220 is, you know,
00:23:20.180 intentionally
00:23:20.960 trying to
00:23:22.700 prevent the
00:23:24.220 benefit from
00:23:25.300 being actualized.
00:23:26.580 So I think
00:23:27.380 those are factors
00:23:28.300 that I consider,
00:23:29.480 you know,
00:23:29.840 pretty high on
00:23:30.560 the list for
00:23:31.100 where we are
00:23:31.640 right now.
00:23:33.000 But what do
00:23:33.480 you mean
00:23:33.780 intentionally
00:23:34.600 trying to
00:23:35.020 get the
00:23:35.240 benefit from
00:23:35.860 keeping the
00:23:36.520 benefit from
00:23:36.940 being actualized?
00:23:38.680 Well, you
00:23:39.500 know, in the
00:23:40.000 political specter,
00:23:41.320 as you've
00:23:42.060 mentioned,
00:23:42.660 there's such a
00:23:43.500 remarkable
00:23:44.180 dichotomy
00:23:45.020 between the
00:23:45.860 Republicans
00:23:46.360 and the
00:23:47.580 Democrats.
00:23:47.960 And there
00:23:48.480 was a great
00:23:49.040 cartoon by
00:23:50.740 one of my
00:23:51.780 favorite
00:23:52.100 cartoonists,
00:23:53.600 Bill Bramhall,
00:23:55.380 who said,
00:23:56.160 well, Biden,
00:23:57.020 you know,
00:23:57.260 he's out there,
00:23:58.280 you know,
00:23:58.500 in sunglasses,
00:23:59.200 and he says
00:24:00.280 on the cartoon,
00:24:01.100 vaccines are
00:24:02.080 bad, and
00:24:03.420 that's how
00:24:03.780 you get
00:24:04.140 Republicans to
00:24:05.200 go get
00:24:06.280 vaccinated.
00:24:06.980 But there
00:24:07.700 is clearly
00:24:08.660 a movement
00:24:09.820 among many
00:24:11.200 Republican
00:24:11.960 leaders in
00:24:13.080 Congress and
00:24:14.340 states to
00:24:15.480 not be
00:24:15.920 supportive of
00:24:16.620 the vaccine
00:24:17.100 front, and
00:24:17.540 only in
00:24:18.000 recent days,
00:24:18.820 interestingly,
00:24:19.860 have they
00:24:20.240 started to
00:24:20.720 come out,
00:24:21.360 you know,
00:24:22.180 with the
00:24:22.980 message that
00:24:23.640 this is
00:24:23.980 important,
00:24:24.620 and that
00:24:25.040 we're facing
00:24:26.360 a very
00:24:26.820 serious delta
00:24:27.600 wave right
00:24:28.280 now.
00:24:28.580 So this
00:24:29.400 is, of
00:24:29.700 course, very
00:24:30.420 late in
00:24:30.860 the game,
00:24:31.420 where we're
00:24:31.920 now, you
00:24:32.720 know, highly
00:24:33.180 dominant with
00:24:33.940 this very
00:24:35.040 formidable
00:24:35.620 version of
00:24:36.840 the virus.
00:24:37.600 And so
00:24:38.180 the messaging
00:24:39.620 from politicians
00:24:41.260 to buck,
00:24:42.580 you know,
00:24:42.900 a lot of
00:24:43.700 things have
00:24:44.000 been blocked
00:24:44.500 politically,
00:24:45.260 and it's
00:24:45.620 not an area
00:24:46.200 that I want
00:24:47.300 to even get
00:24:47.840 into as far
00:24:48.400 as, you
00:24:49.160 know,
00:24:49.880 politicization
00:24:50.620 of the
00:24:51.160 vaccines,
00:24:51.720 but unfortunately
00:24:52.320 it has
00:24:52.960 happened.
00:24:54.200 And you,
00:24:55.040 the data you
00:24:55.680 cited, I
00:24:56.620 mean, there
00:24:56.860 are other
00:24:57.360 surveys that
00:24:58.540 suggest it's
00:24:59.220 even worse
00:24:59.740 than that.
00:25:00.680 So, you
00:25:01.440 know, never
00:25:01.840 before has
00:25:03.160 vaccination in
00:25:04.360 this country
00:25:05.080 been so highly
00:25:06.920 political.
00:25:07.580 And I remember,
00:25:08.300 you know, as a
00:25:08.840 kid, I know
00:25:09.940 I'm older than
00:25:11.120 you, I think,
00:25:11.700 Sam, but when
00:25:12.320 I was a kid
00:25:13.560 and getting
00:25:13.960 polio vaccine,
00:25:15.520 everybody got
00:25:16.760 the polio
00:25:17.260 vaccine.
00:25:18.180 There was no
00:25:18.660 politics.
00:25:20.980 And, you
00:25:21.560 know, if you
00:25:21.960 go back in
00:25:22.660 time, we've
00:25:23.480 never had
00:25:23.940 anything like
00:25:24.500 this.
00:25:25.320 And the sad
00:25:26.280 part is the
00:25:27.280 people who are
00:25:27.800 not getting the
00:25:28.480 benefit of the
00:25:29.080 vaccine, a lot
00:25:30.400 of it is
00:25:30.720 because they're
00:25:31.180 just, you
00:25:31.760 know, they're
00:25:32.060 on social
00:25:32.580 media, they're
00:25:33.080 getting fed
00:25:33.700 misinformation.
00:25:35.180 And by the
00:25:35.960 way, we also
00:25:36.740 know the
00:25:37.300 Russians are
00:25:38.040 involved.
00:25:38.800 This is part
00:25:39.360 of this, you
00:25:40.000 know, mission
00:25:40.440 of their
00:25:40.820 divisiveness.
00:25:41.940 And we
00:25:42.560 haven't had a
00:25:43.200 counteroffensive
00:25:44.040 in this country
00:25:45.180 to all this
00:25:45.960 misinformation.
00:25:46.740 And in fact,
00:25:47.640 you know, I
00:25:48.000 pleaded with
00:25:48.640 Vivek Murthy,
00:25:49.680 our Surgeon
00:25:50.080 General, back
00:25:50.900 in May to
00:25:51.780 do that.
00:25:52.300 And I think
00:25:52.960 he saw just
00:25:53.680 last week, he
00:25:54.580 did make that
00:25:55.600 announcement.
00:25:56.080 But it
00:25:57.320 hasn't really
00:25:58.460 been aggressive.
00:25:59.560 It isn't
00:26:00.060 calling out the
00:26:01.040 sources of
00:26:01.700 this.
00:26:02.460 So what we
00:26:03.140 have is a
00:26:03.680 problem of
00:26:05.020 lots of
00:26:05.700 misinformation,
00:26:06.640 some of it
00:26:07.060 quite deliberate,
00:26:08.500 and lack of
00:26:09.800 a counter.
00:26:11.040 Yeah.
00:26:11.720 The reason why
00:26:12.460 this is so
00:26:12.900 upside down is
00:26:13.680 you have many,
00:26:15.460 many millions
00:26:15.880 of people who
00:26:17.920 believe some
00:26:19.440 combination of
00:26:20.540 the following,
00:26:21.180 that the
00:26:22.060 risk of
00:26:23.960 COVID, the
00:26:25.160 disease, has
00:26:26.780 been vastly
00:26:27.720 exaggerated,
00:26:29.420 right?
00:26:29.680 COVID is a
00:26:30.520 hoax, or
00:26:31.100 it's just a
00:26:31.640 flu, or it's
00:26:32.880 just not a
00:26:33.620 factor.
00:26:34.680 But the
00:26:35.780 vaccines are
00:26:37.280 scary and
00:26:38.360 dangerous,
00:26:39.240 right?
00:26:39.460 So we just
00:26:40.780 have literally
00:26:41.640 tens of
00:26:42.180 millions of
00:26:42.560 people who
00:26:43.780 are totally
00:26:44.560 sanguine about
00:26:45.340 the prospect of
00:26:46.080 catching COVID,
00:26:47.580 but really
00:26:48.660 averse to the
00:26:49.640 idea of getting
00:26:50.360 vaccinated for
00:26:51.360 COVID.
00:26:52.060 And, you
00:26:52.680 know, obviously
00:26:53.160 from our
00:26:53.500 point of view,
00:26:53.900 that's totally
00:26:54.720 upside down.
00:26:56.000 But this is
00:26:57.040 the balance
00:26:57.900 that has to
00:26:58.420 be, you
00:26:59.180 know, the
00:26:59.340 results of
00:26:59.800 which have
00:27:00.720 to be fairly
00:27:01.860 judged.
00:27:02.560 On the one
00:27:03.100 side, you
00:27:03.660 have the
00:27:04.800 risk of
00:27:05.240 COVID plus
00:27:06.580 the effectiveness
00:27:07.340 of the
00:27:07.820 vaccines weighed
00:27:09.600 against the
00:27:10.600 risks of
00:27:11.280 vaccination.
00:27:12.500 Because, I
00:27:12.880 mean, this is
00:27:13.540 really a
00:27:13.980 forced choice
00:27:14.780 for all of
00:27:16.080 us.
00:27:17.160 Unless you're
00:27:17.940 going to be
00:27:18.540 perfectly in
00:27:19.320 hiding, you're
00:27:20.800 going to be
00:27:21.280 exposed,
00:27:22.060 to the
00:27:23.340 novel coronavirus
00:27:24.120 and is
00:27:25.080 some variant
00:27:25.800 or many
00:27:26.280 variants thereof.
00:27:27.620 And you can
00:27:28.920 either be
00:27:29.240 exposed having
00:27:30.200 been fully
00:27:30.700 vaccinated or
00:27:32.200 not having
00:27:32.900 been fully
00:27:33.320 vaccinated.
00:27:34.280 And this
00:27:35.020 should be
00:27:35.500 simple to
00:27:37.040 talk about
00:27:37.900 and, you
00:27:38.860 know, the
00:27:39.280 comparative
00:27:39.720 risks should
00:27:40.560 be simple
00:27:41.220 to assess
00:27:42.240 now because
00:27:42.720 we have
00:27:43.540 many, many
00:27:44.920 millions of
00:27:45.480 people who
00:27:46.000 have run
00:27:46.480 this experiment.
00:27:47.120 We've got
00:27:47.620 millions of
00:27:48.220 people who
00:27:48.640 have caught
00:27:49.080 COVID without
00:27:50.260 the benefit
00:27:50.740 of a vaccine.
00:27:51.760 We've got
00:27:52.140 millions of
00:27:52.700 people who
00:27:53.040 have been
00:27:53.220 vaccinated and
00:27:54.460 we can assess
00:27:55.080 the negative
00:27:55.920 side effects of
00:27:56.940 getting these
00:27:57.800 vaccines.
00:27:58.580 All of this can
00:27:59.300 be assessed,
00:27:59.960 but again, this
00:28:00.880 is happening in
00:28:01.580 a context where
00:28:03.340 many, many
00:28:04.260 millions of
00:28:04.660 people believe
00:28:05.420 that, for
00:28:06.860 instance,
00:28:07.800 everything that
00:28:08.820 has been going
00:28:09.240 on here has
00:28:10.200 been part of a
00:28:11.020 vast totalitarian
00:28:12.980 conspiracy.
00:28:13.700 I mean, there
00:28:14.060 are people who
00:28:14.420 think that the
00:28:14.980 lockdowns and
00:28:16.080 the masking has
00:28:17.800 been not for
00:28:18.860 the purpose of
00:28:19.620 mitigating real
00:28:20.540 illness.
00:28:21.720 The whole point
00:28:22.620 has been to
00:28:23.140 acclimatize
00:28:24.200 otherwise free
00:28:25.740 societies to
00:28:27.300 regimes of
00:28:28.080 extreme social
00:28:29.180 control, right?
00:28:30.420 And then you
00:28:30.800 add to that
00:28:32.380 paranoia the
00:28:33.200 belief that any
00:28:34.620 emphasis on
00:28:35.340 vaccination rather
00:28:37.160 than treatment
00:28:38.380 of COVID with
00:28:39.680 existing compounds
00:28:40.760 like ivermectin,
00:28:42.120 that's based on a
00:28:43.400 pure profit motive
00:28:44.740 coming from
00:28:45.620 big pharma and
00:28:46.540 the mercenary
00:28:48.420 manipulation of
00:28:49.980 government, right?
00:28:50.660 We're all doing
00:28:51.280 the bidding somehow
00:28:52.160 of Pfizer and
00:28:53.060 Moderna.
00:28:54.520 I mean, so I
00:28:54.920 can say, for
00:28:55.400 instance, someone's
00:28:57.360 going to think
00:28:57.880 that of us in
00:28:58.900 this conversation.
00:29:00.060 I should go
00:29:01.180 without saying
00:29:01.780 that I have
00:29:02.140 absolutely no
00:29:03.020 entanglement with
00:29:03.920 big pharma and
00:29:05.120 there's no pressure
00:29:07.840 on me to do a
00:29:09.000 podcast about the
00:29:09.980 benefits of
00:29:10.420 vaccines.
00:29:10.940 So this is just
00:29:13.380 a pure PSA
00:29:14.360 from my point
00:29:14.880 of view.
00:29:15.220 But that's the
00:29:16.180 environment in
00:29:16.700 which we're
00:29:17.180 having this
00:29:17.680 conversation.
00:29:19.000 Yeah, I would
00:29:19.440 add, I have no
00:29:20.660 connections,
00:29:21.960 conflicts with
00:29:22.640 pharma, but even
00:29:24.140 every day people
00:29:25.100 on Twitter say
00:29:25.920 you're a tool,
00:29:26.960 you're a shill for
00:29:27.680 pharma, when in
00:29:28.700 fact I've been
00:29:29.160 attacking them
00:29:29.920 throughout.
00:29:30.580 In fact, before
00:29:31.840 the vaccines were
00:29:32.720 approved, I was
00:29:33.860 attacking them for
00:29:34.740 not posting their
00:29:35.560 protocols during
00:29:37.100 Pfizer and all the
00:29:38.020 rest of them.
00:29:38.440 And also, you
00:29:39.800 know, more
00:29:40.340 recently for a
00:29:41.820 premature pronouncement
00:29:42.960 of need for
00:29:43.580 boosters.
00:29:44.460 And no, this is
00:29:45.660 all, as you say,
00:29:48.160 just part of that
00:29:49.600 kind of multidimensional
00:29:51.120 conspiracy
00:29:52.240 accusal and
00:29:53.840 theory.
00:29:54.500 And it's really,
00:29:55.200 it's saddening to
00:29:56.560 watch and in a way
00:29:58.620 be part of that.
00:29:59.800 Yeah.
00:30:00.580 Okay, so what do
00:30:01.520 we know about the
00:30:02.980 effectiveness of the
00:30:04.900 vaccines at this
00:30:06.260 point?
00:30:06.460 Right.
00:30:07.600 So, the
00:30:08.640 vaccines, when
00:30:10.060 we had the
00:30:11.280 first trials that
00:30:12.640 came out in
00:30:14.500 November, December
00:30:15.560 was a formal
00:30:17.200 review, we
00:30:18.840 learned that they
00:30:19.940 were 95%
00:30:21.320 effective, both
00:30:22.500 Pfizer and then
00:30:23.980 subsequently
00:30:24.460 shortly after
00:30:25.820 Moderna.
00:30:26.920 That was against
00:30:28.100 any infection,
00:30:29.560 or as it
00:30:30.920 turned out, which
00:30:31.620 wasn't the primary
00:30:32.380 endpoint of the
00:30:33.120 trials, the same
00:30:34.780 was at least
00:30:35.840 against any
00:30:37.140 severe illness
00:30:38.500 like death
00:30:39.840 or hospitalization.
00:30:42.460 So, the
00:30:42.720 trials were just
00:30:43.520 designed, 75,000
00:30:45.760 participants,
00:30:47.920 multi-country,
00:30:50.120 these are the
00:30:50.580 largest trials
00:30:51.280 ever performed
00:30:52.440 in vaccines.
00:30:54.120 And they showed
00:30:54.820 this remarkable,
00:30:56.880 you may recall,
00:30:57.980 Sam, that at the
00:30:58.720 time when the
00:30:59.660 trials were done,
00:31:00.640 the FDA had set
00:31:01.980 the bar for
00:31:02.560 50%, if 50%
00:31:04.800 of narrow enough
00:31:06.180 confidence intervals,
00:31:06.980 that would qualify
00:31:07.760 as approval.
00:31:08.700 Here, we had 95%
00:31:10.180 striking.
00:31:11.520 There's only one
00:31:12.200 other vaccine in
00:31:14.000 history that's been
00:31:14.740 at this level of
00:31:15.780 efficacy.
00:31:16.940 That's efficacy.
00:31:18.540 So, then you have,
00:31:19.780 of course, the
00:31:20.420 different world, which
00:31:21.280 is effectiveness, when
00:31:22.880 you put the vaccines
00:31:23.900 in the real world.
00:31:25.140 And what's striking,
00:31:27.120 wherever you look,
00:31:28.340 whether it's Israel
00:31:29.360 or the UK or,
00:31:31.340 you know, the
00:31:32.440 various centers that
00:31:34.240 are reported in
00:31:35.400 the US, we see the
00:31:37.300 same effectiveness
00:31:38.720 as efficacy.
00:31:40.500 Now, that's unusual
00:31:41.460 too, because what's
00:31:42.800 happened there is the
00:31:43.640 real world isn't like
00:31:45.080 that ideal situation
00:31:46.680 of, you know, the
00:31:47.720 inclusion criteria,
00:31:49.560 the exclusion
00:31:50.200 criteria, exactly the
00:31:51.940 right way that the
00:31:52.980 vaccines were given
00:31:53.920 and, you know,
00:31:54.780 they're frozen into
00:31:55.840 the moment and, you
00:31:56.800 know, all the perfect
00:31:57.580 things.
00:31:58.220 Usually, you see a
00:31:59.440 drop-off in
00:32:00.340 effectiveness.
00:32:01.500 And, in fact, it's
00:32:02.540 held up.
00:32:03.140 Now, that was with
00:32:04.300 the original strain
00:32:05.460 and, of course,
00:32:07.660 there's been some
00:32:08.420 evolution.
00:32:09.440 First, you know,
00:32:10.600 from what is called
00:32:12.400 the ancestral or
00:32:13.400 Wuhan strain to the
00:32:14.640 D614G, which had a
00:32:16.740 little bit more
00:32:17.380 transmission.
00:32:18.760 And then we went
00:32:19.300 through this alpha,
00:32:20.220 beta, gamma, and
00:32:21.680 finally now to
00:32:22.780 delta.
00:32:23.100 Now, delta, there
00:32:24.460 is a small drop-off
00:32:26.580 in effectiveness.
00:32:28.540 We don't have an
00:32:29.200 efficacy trial.
00:32:30.380 We have now
00:32:30.920 effectiveness in the
00:32:32.080 real world.
00:32:33.280 And what we're seeing
00:32:34.000 now is like a five or
00:32:35.360 six point drop.
00:32:36.680 So, instead of 95%,
00:32:38.560 it's like 88, 90%
00:32:41.540 effectiveness.
00:32:42.200 That's exceptionally
00:32:43.260 good against any
00:32:45.040 symptomatic infection.
00:32:46.380 And 96% against death
00:32:49.780 or hospitalization,
00:32:51.320 which is
00:32:52.460 extraordinary.
00:32:53.700 So, here we have,
00:32:55.160 you know, what
00:32:56.120 would most would
00:32:57.340 consider the best
00:32:58.360 vaccine and
00:33:00.520 data sets
00:33:01.480 in history.
00:33:03.420 And it's ironic
00:33:05.020 that we have such
00:33:06.080 a substantial
00:33:07.660 number of people
00:33:09.360 or, as you
00:33:10.200 position it,
00:33:10.960 bubble,
00:33:11.720 that just are still
00:33:13.180 not believing this.
00:33:14.160 And, of course,
00:33:15.100 the safety has
00:33:16.060 gone along with
00:33:16.700 that.
00:33:17.700 Yeah, so there
00:33:18.040 are many kind of
00:33:19.240 natural experiments
00:33:20.220 happening here.
00:33:20.980 So, I mean,
00:33:22.020 one thing you can
00:33:22.800 do is compare
00:33:23.860 the rates of
00:33:25.340 hospitalization and
00:33:26.320 death for the
00:33:27.860 vaxxed and
00:33:28.600 unvaxxed.
00:33:29.900 I mean, granted,
00:33:30.480 there are contexts in
00:33:31.620 which this can be
00:33:32.200 misleading.
00:33:32.800 So, I mean,
00:33:33.280 obviously, in a
00:33:34.260 society where
00:33:35.180 100% of people
00:33:36.900 are fully
00:33:37.420 vaccinated,
00:33:38.760 well, then 100%
00:33:39.700 of people who are
00:33:40.380 hospitalized or dead
00:33:41.540 from COVID will
00:33:42.300 also be fully
00:33:43.020 vaccinated, right?
00:33:44.080 But presumably
00:33:45.140 there'll be very
00:33:45.580 few of them if
00:33:46.220 the vaccines
00:33:46.700 actually work.
00:33:48.060 But we have
00:33:48.520 many situations
00:33:49.420 where around
00:33:51.000 50% of people
00:33:52.320 are fully
00:33:53.120 vaccinated and
00:33:54.420 50% aren't.
00:33:56.240 And we can
00:33:57.640 compare what's
00:33:58.380 happening at the
00:33:59.440 hospitals and in
00:34:00.900 the morgues.
00:34:02.180 And, I mean,
00:34:02.860 you take a place
00:34:03.480 like Virginia where
00:34:04.640 about just under
00:34:05.740 54% of the
00:34:06.720 population is fully
00:34:07.560 vaccinated.
00:34:08.660 If you look at
00:34:09.560 the hospitalization
00:34:10.920 data,
00:34:11.540 over 98% of
00:34:13.920 the people
00:34:14.260 hospitalized are
00:34:15.500 not fully
00:34:16.520 vaccinated.
00:34:17.360 And over 99%
00:34:18.960 of the deaths
00:34:19.640 are for people
00:34:20.820 who are not
00:34:21.200 fully vaccinated.
00:34:22.060 So, it's just
00:34:23.100 that our hospitals
00:34:23.960 are not filling
00:34:25.080 with the
00:34:26.440 vaccinated in
00:34:27.540 places where
00:34:28.460 there's a,
00:34:29.860 you know,
00:34:30.220 comparable
00:34:31.240 cohorts of
00:34:32.460 vaccinated and
00:34:33.640 unvaccinated
00:34:34.320 people.
00:34:35.060 So, what we
00:34:35.700 have is, what we
00:34:36.620 appear to have
00:34:37.180 now is a
00:34:37.900 raging pandemic
00:34:40.140 among the
00:34:41.000 unvaccinated.
00:34:42.560 And, of course,
00:34:43.360 some number of
00:34:44.120 vaccinated people
00:34:44.900 will experience
00:34:46.400 breakthrough illness
00:34:47.440 and even severe
00:34:49.260 illness and death,
00:34:50.600 but the numbers
00:34:51.740 are minuscule
00:34:53.360 by comparison.
00:34:54.520 Is there any way
00:34:55.580 in which this
00:34:56.080 doesn't speak to
00:34:57.880 the effectiveness
00:34:58.680 of the vaccines?
00:34:59.740 I mean, is this
00:35:00.880 a...
00:35:01.220 Well, yeah.
00:35:02.540 I mean, I think
00:35:03.200 you're bringing up
00:35:04.900 what has been
00:35:06.220 used, again,
00:35:07.740 by the same
00:35:08.300 people who are
00:35:09.140 the anti-vaxxers,
00:35:10.840 anti-science.
00:35:12.460 But what is
00:35:13.840 being used is
00:35:14.800 the increasing
00:35:15.700 number of
00:35:16.680 breakthrough
00:35:17.140 infections with
00:35:19.780 Delta.
00:35:20.680 So, in
00:35:21.980 prior, you know,
00:35:23.200 Delta, we know,
00:35:24.380 has a viral load
00:35:26.500 or the number of
00:35:27.660 copies of
00:35:28.600 replicant virus
00:35:30.820 that is a
00:35:31.740 capable replication,
00:35:33.300 a thousandfold
00:35:34.140 or more
00:35:34.660 compared with
00:35:35.660 the ancestral strain.
00:35:36.700 So, we know
00:35:37.180 it's a more
00:35:37.860 challenging virus,
00:35:39.040 much more
00:35:39.600 contagious,
00:35:40.380 transmissible.
00:35:41.420 Now, with that,
00:35:43.160 the breakthrough
00:35:43.720 infections of
00:35:44.860 people winding up
00:35:45.640 in the hospital
00:35:46.220 with the prior
00:35:47.640 variant versions
00:35:49.960 of the virus
00:35:50.700 was less than
00:35:52.120 1%,
00:35:53.320 and even less
00:35:54.960 than a fraction
00:35:55.640 of 1%,
00:35:56.500 and something
00:35:57.580 like 0.1%
00:35:58.680 for death.
00:35:59.640 Now, it has
00:36:00.380 gone up some
00:36:01.440 for Delta.
00:36:03.200 That is, you know,
00:36:03.960 now it's a couple
00:36:05.200 of percent,
00:36:06.100 you know,
00:36:06.440 few percent
00:36:07.160 hospitalizations,
00:36:08.220 and, you know,
00:36:10.000 perhaps it will
00:36:11.360 approach 1%
00:36:12.360 in death.
00:36:13.040 But the point
00:36:13.660 here is that
00:36:14.820 this is a
00:36:15.500 formidable
00:36:15.960 now version
00:36:17.740 of the virus,
00:36:18.560 and what we have
00:36:19.940 is a problem
00:36:20.420 with mathematics,
00:36:21.180 because people
00:36:22.660 who don't
00:36:23.100 understand that,
00:36:24.480 like, for example,
00:36:25.360 let's say in Israel
00:36:26.220 where you have
00:36:26.920 more than half
00:36:28.160 of the current
00:36:29.420 breakthrough
00:36:30.400 infections,
00:36:32.140 people are in
00:36:32.700 the hospital,
00:36:33.880 and say,
00:36:34.340 oh, well, look,
00:36:34.920 the vaccines
00:36:35.440 aren't working.
00:36:36.500 Well, that's just
00:36:37.420 because in Israel,
00:36:39.820 among these people
00:36:40.700 that are being
00:36:41.680 looked at,
00:36:42.660 you know,
00:36:43.220 89%
00:36:44.860 of adults
00:36:46.080 have been
00:36:48.460 vaccinated.
00:36:48.980 There's no one
00:36:50.620 left to get
00:36:51.860 sick.
00:36:52.860 Right, right.
00:36:53.640 It's that whole
00:36:54.080 point.
00:36:54.440 If 100% of the
00:36:55.300 people are
00:36:55.620 vaccinated,
00:36:56.260 then everybody
00:36:56.680 has, you know,
00:36:57.840 and anybody
00:36:58.540 who's in the
00:36:59.000 hospital,
00:36:59.520 obviously,
00:37:00.020 that defined
00:37:00.440 a breakthrough
00:37:00.920 illness.
00:37:01.440 So people
00:37:02.200 are missing
00:37:02.980 the point
00:37:03.760 about denominators
00:37:04.980 and fractions,
00:37:06.540 but if you
00:37:07.480 calculate the
00:37:08.240 vaccine efficacy,
00:37:09.720 as has been
00:37:10.300 done in the
00:37:11.340 UK and in
00:37:12.520 Israel,
00:37:13.340 effectiveness,
00:37:14.220 I should say,
00:37:15.260 it stays at
00:37:16.220 the 90%
00:37:16.960 level.
00:37:17.640 It has never
00:37:18.280 changed.
00:37:18.980 With Delta.
00:37:20.300 So here,
00:37:21.320 I think,
00:37:21.820 is, again,
00:37:22.900 whenever there's
00:37:23.520 just a sleight
00:37:25.060 of hand with
00:37:25.820 statistics,
00:37:26.700 it's being used
00:37:27.640 in a way by
00:37:29.460 anti-vaxxers,
00:37:31.360 what I consider
00:37:32.560 to be deliberate.
00:37:34.500 A lot of these
00:37:35.020 people are
00:37:36.120 intelligent,
00:37:37.280 they know
00:37:37.840 better,
00:37:38.560 but this feeds
00:37:39.700 their narrative.
00:37:41.440 Yeah,
00:37:41.860 there's another
00:37:42.440 comparison here
00:37:43.240 which should be
00:37:44.740 pretty straightforward.
00:37:45.900 I mean,
00:37:46.020 we have
00:37:46.860 something like,
00:37:48.980 159 million
00:37:51.720 people now
00:37:52.580 who have been
00:37:53.100 fully vaccinated
00:37:54.000 in the U.S.,
00:37:55.640 right?
00:37:56.140 And we have
00:37:57.360 probably a similar
00:37:58.500 number of people
00:37:59.840 who have been
00:38:00.700 exposed to the
00:38:02.220 coronavirus.
00:38:02.960 I mean,
00:38:03.180 there's only 34
00:38:04.240 million confirmed
00:38:05.320 cases,
00:38:06.040 according to the
00:38:06.580 CDC,
00:38:06.900 but we know
00:38:07.960 it's got to be
00:38:08.380 higher than that.
00:38:09.680 So we can compare,
00:38:10.800 and we have,
00:38:11.320 you know,
00:38:12.240 tens of millions
00:38:13.160 of people in
00:38:14.680 each cohort,
00:38:15.580 people who've been
00:38:16.080 vaccinated and people
00:38:17.060 who've gotten
00:38:17.720 COVID.
00:38:19.300 Now,
00:38:19.600 if the people
00:38:19.940 have gotten
00:38:20.220 COVID,
00:38:21.040 we have around
00:38:21.740 600,000 who
00:38:23.120 have died.
00:38:24.280 For the people
00:38:24.880 who've gotten
00:38:25.200 vaccinated,
00:38:26.120 when we ask
00:38:27.020 how many people
00:38:27.500 have died
00:38:28.240 as a result
00:38:28.960 of getting
00:38:29.300 vaccinated,
00:38:30.420 this is just
00:38:31.180 a comparison
00:38:32.040 of just how
00:38:32.580 dangerous is
00:38:33.180 COVID compared
00:38:33.960 to the danger
00:38:34.980 of getting
00:38:35.440 vaccinated,
00:38:36.400 these data
00:38:37.380 are kind of
00:38:37.800 hard to get
00:38:39.400 your hands
00:38:40.620 around because
00:38:41.120 it seems like
00:38:42.240 there's just,
00:38:43.340 there are reports
00:38:44.420 of people
00:38:44.840 dying after
00:38:45.760 getting vaccinated
00:38:46.580 without there
00:38:47.320 being any real
00:38:48.640 assessment of
00:38:50.000 whether the
00:38:50.480 vaccine was
00:38:51.380 causally responsible
00:38:52.860 for their death.
00:38:53.820 I mean,
00:38:53.980 there's just people
00:38:54.380 who happen to
00:38:54.920 drop dead from
00:38:55.600 something after
00:38:56.280 being vaccinated.
00:38:57.740 And the highest
00:38:58.560 number I've seen
00:38:59.260 there is 12,000.
00:39:02.340 Yeah,
00:39:02.480 but that is
00:39:03.740 probably 12.
00:39:05.280 Right.
00:39:05.720 That's probably
00:39:06.220 how many.
00:39:06.800 Yeah.
00:39:07.160 If it's that many.
00:39:08.700 But I think
00:39:09.380 this is the problem
00:39:10.180 you're bringing up
00:39:11.120 is this is this
00:39:12.580 unfortunate situation
00:39:14.040 you know,
00:39:14.920 we all like
00:39:15.580 open science,
00:39:16.600 open data,
00:39:17.460 but the CDC,
00:39:19.020 when they set up
00:39:20.120 the VAERS,
00:39:22.580 this is the
00:39:23.280 adverse event
00:39:24.440 reporting system.
00:39:26.640 They didn't
00:39:27.320 recognize that
00:39:28.800 this was going
00:39:29.420 to be used
00:39:30.380 by anti-vaxxers
00:39:31.840 because these
00:39:33.260 cases are
00:39:34.680 not adjudicated.
00:39:36.400 They've not,
00:39:36.840 as you say,
00:39:37.300 not been reviewed.
00:39:38.640 They have no idea
00:39:39.800 whether the death
00:39:40.600 has any linkage
00:39:41.420 because we know
00:39:42.380 you know,
00:39:43.040 people,
00:39:43.300 when you have
00:39:44.220 162 million
00:39:45.560 Americans,
00:39:46.040 which we have
00:39:46.740 as of today,
00:39:48.420 who are fully
00:39:49.080 vaccinated,
00:39:50.220 you know,
00:39:50.440 some people
00:39:50.860 are going to die
00:39:51.700 naturally
00:39:52.460 with vaccination.
00:39:54.820 And so,
00:39:55.220 these are people
00:39:55.900 part of the VAERS
00:39:56.900 reporting system.
00:39:57.960 Now,
00:39:58.480 what is extraordinary
00:39:59.700 here is that
00:40:00.600 this is used
00:40:01.800 on a daily basis.
00:40:03.360 The likes of,
00:40:04.020 you know,
00:40:04.280 Fox News,
00:40:04.960 Tucker Carlson,
00:40:06.120 Laura Ingraham,
00:40:07.280 you know,
00:40:07.680 mainstream television
00:40:09.240 stations
00:40:10.120 and lots
00:40:11.180 of other
00:40:11.800 entities
00:40:12.480 are using
00:40:13.300 this data
00:40:14.380 and it's
00:40:15.580 obvious
00:40:16.160 misuse
00:40:17.220 because
00:40:17.820 unlike the
00:40:18.900 clinical trials
00:40:19.740 where no one
00:40:21.100 died of a
00:40:22.180 vaccination,
00:40:23.420 the safety
00:40:24.120 was,
00:40:24.760 I mean,
00:40:25.420 it was just
00:40:26.280 extraordinary.
00:40:27.240 No one died
00:40:28.040 of the vaccine
00:40:29.040 in either
00:40:30.240 Moderna
00:40:30.780 or Pfizer,
00:40:31.740 you know,
00:40:31.980 when the 75,000
00:40:33.040 patient trials
00:40:33.620 because every
00:40:34.660 case,
00:40:35.600 every potential
00:40:36.580 side effect
00:40:37.400 is reviewed
00:40:39.300 by an events
00:40:40.440 committee.
00:40:41.300 Now,
00:40:42.000 you know,
00:40:42.560 we have,
00:40:43.180 one of the ways
00:40:43.700 you could die
00:40:44.440 of a vaccine
00:40:45.600 would be if you
00:40:46.200 had anaphylaxis,
00:40:47.980 just profound
00:40:49.120 allergic reaction
00:40:50.220 but there's been
00:40:51.360 multiple reports
00:40:52.300 of the people
00:40:53.020 who had
00:40:53.740 anaphylaxis
00:40:55.180 with the,
00:40:56.060 specifically with
00:40:56.780 the mRNA vaccines
00:40:57.780 and they haven't
00:40:58.880 died.
00:40:59.580 I mean,
00:40:59.760 they got treated
00:41:00.440 and a few,
00:41:01.160 you know,
00:41:01.400 a small number
00:41:02.000 had to get
00:41:02.400 hospitalized but
00:41:03.020 that would be
00:41:03.960 the one thing
00:41:04.980 you could link
00:41:05.500 with death.
00:41:05.860 Now,
00:41:06.100 there are these
00:41:06.640 exceptionally
00:41:07.640 rare,
00:41:08.660 rare side effects
00:41:10.440 like,
00:41:11.140 you know,
00:41:11.420 with the J&J
00:41:12.760 and AstraZeneca,
00:41:13.800 this blood clotting
00:41:14.700 issue which is
00:41:15.740 called vaccine-induced
00:41:16.980 thrombocytopenic
00:41:18.500 thrombosis
00:41:19.500 or what we,
00:41:21.200 you know,
00:41:21.420 we have seen
00:41:22.160 very rare
00:41:23.640 myocarditis
00:41:25.200 in young people,
00:41:27.260 particularly men
00:41:28.060 with mRNA vaccines.
00:41:30.320 These are
00:41:30.740 exceptionally rare.
00:41:32.140 Guillain-Barre
00:41:32.720 with,
00:41:33.500 you know,
00:41:34.080 Johnson & Johnson
00:41:34.880 100 cases
00:41:36.180 among 12 million
00:41:37.200 people vaccinated.
00:41:38.320 So,
00:41:38.760 if you just
00:41:39.300 look at these
00:41:39.760 rare things,
00:41:40.380 first of all,
00:41:41.400 they don't die.
00:41:42.460 Most of these
00:41:42.800 people don't die.
00:41:43.720 They recover.
00:41:45.640 Myocarditis,
00:41:46.300 almost all recover
00:41:47.420 and it's very mild.
00:41:49.260 With the blood
00:41:50.040 clotting issue,
00:41:51.020 well,
00:41:51.340 if it does occur
00:41:52.340 where there's
00:41:52.940 a cerebral
00:41:53.600 sinus thrombosis,
00:41:55.360 yes,
00:41:55.620 that has a high
00:41:56.220 fatality,
00:41:56.820 but it's incredibly
00:41:58.300 rare.
00:41:59.120 You know,
00:41:59.320 one in hundreds
00:42:00.740 of thousands
00:42:01.360 of people
00:42:02.060 with AstraZeneca
00:42:03.080 or with J&J
00:42:04.100 not seen
00:42:04.940 with mRNA.
00:42:05.820 So,
00:42:06.200 just to review
00:42:06.900 the composite here,
00:42:08.480 the safety
00:42:09.020 is overwhelming,
00:42:11.160 but the VAERS
00:42:12.100 open data
00:42:13.740 registry
00:42:14.720 of unadjudicated
00:42:16.420 data
00:42:16.860 is what's causing
00:42:17.680 the problem
00:42:18.280 because it's being
00:42:19.260 basically
00:42:20.280 used by people
00:42:21.880 who either
00:42:22.740 don't know
00:42:23.420 or unknowingly
00:42:24.840 are using it
00:42:25.780 to spread
00:42:27.100 false information.
00:42:28.680 Right.
00:42:29.420 Right.
00:42:30.020 Yeah,
00:42:30.200 so I take
00:42:31.100 all those points
00:42:31.820 and undoubtedly
00:42:32.680 that's the correct
00:42:34.460 way to look at it,
00:42:35.260 but even if we
00:42:36.520 took the VAERS
00:42:37.540 numbers at face value,
00:42:39.460 even if we
00:42:40.060 acknowledge that
00:42:40.820 12,000 people
00:42:42.140 have been killed
00:42:43.040 outright
00:42:43.540 by these vaccines,
00:42:46.200 it still makes
00:42:47.940 COVID look
00:42:49.220 a hell of a lot
00:42:50.040 more dangerous
00:42:50.680 than the vaccine
00:42:51.940 for COVID.
00:42:53.340 Right.
00:42:53.540 I mean,
00:42:53.680 it's like,
00:42:54.520 you're still talking
00:42:55.260 about when you
00:42:56.300 have on the order
00:42:57.780 of 160 million
00:42:58.840 people
00:42:59.340 who have been
00:43:00.840 fully vaccinated,
00:43:02.440 12,000 people
00:43:03.260 dying,
00:43:03.700 I mean,
00:43:03.760 that's less than
00:43:04.460 1 in 10,000
00:43:05.540 people dying
00:43:07.020 based on this
00:43:07.800 intervention.
00:43:08.860 It would be
00:43:09.540 a depressing number,
00:43:10.620 but it's so much
00:43:11.380 better than the
00:43:12.100 number for
00:43:12.620 getting COVID
00:43:13.960 without having
00:43:15.340 the benefit
00:43:15.800 of the vaccine
00:43:16.540 that people
00:43:18.140 still have this
00:43:18.900 upside down,
00:43:19.760 even taking
00:43:20.840 those numbers
00:43:21.440 at face value,
00:43:22.260 which of course
00:43:22.700 we can't do.
00:43:23.940 I couldn't agree
00:43:24.440 with you more.
00:43:25.820 In fact,
00:43:26.580 you're looking
00:43:26.980 at overall
00:43:27.780 with respect
00:43:28.760 to the
00:43:29.320 exceptionally
00:43:30.120 rare side
00:43:30.880 effects
00:43:31.200 that I've
00:43:31.620 mentioned,
00:43:32.540 the chance
00:43:33.060 of you having
00:43:33.580 any of those
00:43:34.540 from COVID
00:43:35.820 is considerably
00:43:37.840 higher,
00:43:39.060 orders of magnitude
00:43:40.280 higher.
00:43:41.180 So yes,
00:43:41.720 across the board,
00:43:43.400 the relationship
00:43:44.300 between getting
00:43:45.540 COVID risk
00:43:46.900 versus any
00:43:48.280 risk of the
00:43:48.960 vaccine,
00:43:49.920 it is overwhelming
00:43:51.300 that the vaccines
00:43:53.100 are providing
00:43:54.140 an exceptional
00:43:55.440 net benefit,
00:43:56.120 and that can't
00:43:56.760 be questioned.
00:43:57.460 That's real data.
00:43:58.620 That's the most
00:43:59.080 solid evidence
00:43:59.900 data set that
00:44:01.080 I've known in
00:44:02.300 my 35 years
00:44:03.480 in academics.
00:44:05.680 And it's important
00:44:06.880 to realize that
00:44:07.380 when you're talking
00:44:07.860 about numbers
00:44:08.560 this large,
00:44:09.740 when you're talking
00:44:10.080 about 160 million
00:44:11.840 people being
00:44:13.080 exposed to any
00:44:14.180 intervention,
00:44:15.580 there will always
00:44:16.520 be some number
00:44:17.420 of bad reactions
00:44:19.260 that if you focus
00:44:20.860 on those
00:44:21.620 vaccines without
00:44:22.460 understanding the
00:44:23.900 background statistics
00:44:25.580 could make a
00:44:27.700 rational person,
00:44:29.400 an otherwise
00:44:29.900 rational person,
00:44:31.340 nervous about
00:44:32.400 that intervention.
00:44:33.440 But the truth
00:44:34.180 is, if we were
00:44:35.840 giving people
00:44:36.340 peanut butter
00:44:37.120 as a prophylactic
00:44:38.980 against COVID,
00:44:39.560 if peanut butter
00:44:40.260 were 100%
00:44:41.320 effective against
00:44:42.520 COVID,
00:44:43.400 some number of
00:44:44.200 people would die
00:44:44.760 outright from
00:44:45.560 peanut butter.
00:44:46.300 That's right.
00:44:47.240 I mean, that's
00:44:47.700 just, that's the
00:44:48.480 nature of human
00:44:49.920 biology.
00:44:50.920 But, you know,
00:44:51.440 obviously it would
00:44:51.980 be, we would
00:44:52.500 consider it an
00:44:53.380 absolute gift
00:44:54.420 beyond words if
00:44:55.980 peanut butter could
00:44:56.820 prevent this disease.
00:44:58.760 Well, one other
00:44:59.680 thing I just want to
00:45:00.840 mention because
00:45:01.860 what you're saying
00:45:03.280 is so spot on,
00:45:04.600 but the issue
00:45:06.380 about the concerns
00:45:07.520 of long-term
00:45:08.660 effects of the
00:45:10.080 vaccine.
00:45:10.760 I do want to
00:45:11.660 address that because
00:45:12.440 a lot of people
00:45:13.080 say, well, you
00:45:14.180 know, I think the
00:45:16.120 data look good,
00:45:16.800 but what about
00:45:17.300 could something
00:45:17.820 happen later?
00:45:19.480 You know, and
00:45:20.260 the answer there
00:45:21.140 is, I think,
00:45:22.800 pretty astounding
00:45:23.640 in that in the
00:45:24.760 history of vaccines,
00:45:26.060 there has never
00:45:27.600 been something
00:45:28.360 that showed up
00:45:29.440 beyond two months
00:45:31.320 after the vaccines
00:45:32.400 were in common
00:45:33.940 use.
00:45:34.960 Okay.
00:45:35.600 We're now, you
00:45:36.740 know, beyond
00:45:37.160 seven months.
00:45:38.580 So there is never,
00:45:39.440 there is no reason
00:45:40.320 to think that these
00:45:41.860 vaccines are going
00:45:42.740 to be different
00:45:43.280 than vaccines that
00:45:44.520 have been going
00:45:45.100 on for, you
00:45:45.880 know,
00:45:46.120 many, many
00:45:46.860 decades and so
00:45:48.380 many different
00:45:49.120 diseases and
00:45:50.720 platforms.
00:45:51.880 So the long-term
00:45:53.200 people should have
00:45:53.880 confidence in
00:45:54.640 vaccines because
00:45:55.480 we're not going to,
00:45:56.240 there's no more
00:45:56.800 surprises.
00:45:58.340 You know, the
00:45:58.800 surprises have been
00:45:59.720 unveiled either in
00:46:00.920 the clinical trials
00:46:01.820 or the first two
00:46:02.940 months.
00:46:03.300 When they get into,
00:46:04.540 you know, you have
00:46:04.920 190 million Americans
00:46:06.640 who've been exposed
00:46:07.460 to at least one
00:46:08.420 dose.
00:46:09.060 We have hundreds
00:46:10.060 of more millions
00:46:11.220 around the world.
00:46:12.360 We know what
00:46:13.460 these vaccines do.
00:46:14.280 There's no long-term
00:46:15.960 surprises that we
00:46:17.280 could see at this
00:46:18.400 point.
00:46:18.900 Right.
00:46:19.340 But even if we were
00:46:20.340 going to give a
00:46:21.920 hostage to paranoia
00:46:24.260 here and grant that
00:46:25.720 we just, we don't
00:46:26.640 understand the long-term
00:46:28.020 implications of the
00:46:29.020 vaccines, you still
00:46:30.520 have this head-to-head
00:46:31.900 comparison with the
00:46:33.440 actual disease of
00:46:35.400 COVID, which makes the
00:46:37.660 vaccines look
00:46:38.900 comparatively benign,
00:46:40.280 right?
00:46:40.400 Like, so if you're
00:46:41.700 worried about the
00:46:42.340 long-term possibilities
00:46:43.720 of vaccines, you
00:46:45.720 should be doubly
00:46:46.500 worried about the
00:46:47.300 long-term possibilities
00:46:48.780 of having caught
00:46:49.800 COVID without the
00:46:51.040 benefit of having been
00:46:52.120 vaccinated.
00:46:53.300 You know, if you're
00:46:53.700 worried about, you
00:46:54.740 know, people, you
00:46:55.500 know, there's people
00:46:56.060 circulating an article
00:46:57.100 that suggests that the
00:46:58.940 spike protein born of
00:47:00.720 the mRNA vaccines could
00:47:03.360 be bad for the blood
00:47:05.040 brain barrier, right?
00:47:06.340 But, you know, what
00:47:07.360 does COVID do to the
00:47:08.700 blood brain barrier,
00:47:09.540 right?
00:47:10.100 Well, yeah, I mean,
00:47:11.420 firstly, that that is
00:47:13.180 absurd.
00:47:14.480 You know, I saw this
00:47:15.600 through commentary that
00:47:18.680 Brett Weinstein put out
00:47:20.560 that people who get a
00:47:22.800 headache as a side
00:47:24.160 effect of a COVID
00:47:26.060 vaccine, which is not
00:47:27.420 uncommon to get a
00:47:28.320 headache, that that
00:47:29.820 could be a brain fog
00:47:31.760 from the mRNA getting
00:47:33.780 into the brain.
00:47:34.500 This is totally
00:47:35.780 unsubstantiated, totally.
00:47:37.560 And to try to make a
00:47:39.640 parallel where the
00:47:40.820 true brain fog, that
00:47:42.340 is, the cognitive
00:47:43.560 effect, a hit to
00:47:45.220 people who do get
00:47:46.100 COVID, so-called long
00:47:48.000 COVID or long
00:47:48.820 haulers, which is
00:47:49.960 happening in at least
00:47:50.900 10% of the people
00:47:52.020 with confirmed
00:47:52.720 infections.
00:47:54.040 And, you know, I know
00:47:55.080 many people, colleagues,
00:47:56.360 people I work with who
00:47:57.400 are affected by long
00:47:58.420 COVID, who have a brain
00:48:00.440 fog and have profound
00:48:01.860 fatigue, have difficulty
00:48:03.060 breathing, you know,
00:48:04.120 can't even go on a
00:48:05.520 long walk that they
00:48:06.380 used to be, you know,
00:48:07.280 healthy and athletic.
00:48:09.120 So for anyone to
00:48:11.060 posit that people who
00:48:12.980 get a headache is
00:48:14.200 having mRNA going into
00:48:15.660 the brain, that is
00:48:16.880 totally irresponsible.
00:48:18.580 It's reckless, it's
00:48:20.520 sick, and it casts
00:48:22.640 unnecessary doubts to
00:48:25.120 these people, the
00:48:25.900 innocent.
00:48:26.700 You know, it's, in a
00:48:28.120 way, Sam, I have to
00:48:29.360 say it's predatory.
00:48:30.600 It's taking people who
00:48:32.640 want to believe in a
00:48:33.920 conspiracy or don't
00:48:35.080 know what to believe
00:48:35.960 and making vaccines
00:48:37.960 look like they're
00:48:39.440 intended to harm with
00:48:41.360 no evidence whatsoever.
00:48:44.180 It's really sad.
00:48:46.440 Yeah, well, so there's a
00:48:47.700 conspiratorial frame of
00:48:49.460 mind here, which is
00:48:50.660 given just enough
00:48:52.680 Pavlovian reinforcement
00:48:54.520 to be almost impossible
00:48:56.880 for people to break out
00:48:58.080 of because, you know,
00:48:58.940 there are occasional
00:49:00.160 conspiracies.
00:49:01.480 There are certainly
00:49:02.180 bad incentives that
00:49:04.860 can be detected where
00:49:06.740 it's easy to allege a,
00:49:08.380 you know, a profit
00:49:09.100 motive on the part of
00:49:10.400 Pfizer.
00:49:10.860 I mean, so you
00:49:11.360 referenced the fact
00:49:12.620 that Pfizer was
00:49:14.140 prematurely recommending
00:49:15.440 booster shots, right?
00:49:16.900 Well, the reason for
00:49:18.100 that is, you know, the
00:49:19.320 cynical reason for that
00:49:20.640 is fairly obvious to
00:49:22.740 see because this would
00:49:24.320 mean literally billions
00:49:26.420 of dollars falling to
00:49:27.700 their bottom line if
00:49:29.380 that were our health
00:49:31.080 policy.
00:49:32.200 And so there's this
00:49:33.260 background concern about
00:49:34.900 a profit motive in
00:49:36.880 medicine that is
00:49:38.300 deranging people's
00:49:39.580 thinking here.
00:49:40.220 And I mean, so Brett
00:49:41.160 Weinstein is an example
00:49:42.500 of this.
00:49:43.000 I know that he's very
00:49:45.420 concerned that the
00:49:47.840 emergency use
00:49:48.860 authorization for these
00:49:50.500 vaccines required that
00:49:53.120 there be no valid
00:49:54.760 therapeutic for COVID
00:49:57.260 in order to get
00:49:58.540 triggered.
00:49:59.840 And so, you know, by
00:50:00.560 definition, this is on
00:50:01.480 his account, by
00:50:02.620 definition, it had to
00:50:04.180 be judged that there
00:50:05.000 was nothing in the
00:50:06.580 armamentarium of
00:50:07.640 medical science that
00:50:09.360 could treat COVID in
00:50:10.540 principle in order to
00:50:11.960 fast track these
00:50:12.820 vaccines.
00:50:13.960 And therefore, we
00:50:15.020 overlooked the near
00:50:16.940 panacea of
00:50:18.860 ivermectin, an old
00:50:22.680 compound that is
00:50:24.280 generically available
00:50:25.660 and from which no
00:50:27.500 pharmaceutical company
00:50:28.980 stands a chance of
00:50:29.900 profiting.
00:50:31.020 And so there, in
00:50:32.240 Brett's mind, you have
00:50:34.180 the perfect storm of
00:50:36.080 bad incentives and
00:50:37.980 greedy pharmaceutical
00:50:39.620 executives driving
00:50:41.340 policy toward a, you
00:50:43.860 know, windfall profits
00:50:45.100 and disregarding the
00:50:47.220 life-saving opportunity
00:50:48.500 of handing out
00:50:50.760 ivermectin to
00:50:52.120 one and all
00:50:52.800 and driving us
00:50:54.400 toward some
00:50:55.620 kind of
00:50:56.640 abyss of
00:50:57.840 novel risk,
00:50:59.840 right?
00:51:00.120 Because on his
00:51:00.680 account, these
00:51:01.680 mRNA vaccines are
00:51:03.320 new and
00:51:04.780 therefore
00:51:05.240 have to be
00:51:06.760 assumed
00:51:07.200 to be
00:51:08.300 dangerous
00:51:09.000 because they,
00:51:10.780 by definition,
00:51:12.200 are, you know,
00:51:13.240 untested
00:51:13.840 or we're testing
00:51:15.840 them on ourselves
00:51:16.500 now, on his
00:51:17.460 account.
00:51:17.740 So this is
00:51:19.000 where we have
00:51:19.420 to deal with
00:51:19.980 the claim
00:51:20.980 about ivermectin
00:51:22.040 and how,
00:51:24.060 why it's not
00:51:24.840 a rational
00:51:26.360 alternative
00:51:27.060 to these
00:51:27.980 vaccines.
00:51:29.720 Yeah, well, I
00:51:30.420 do want to go
00:51:31.040 over this
00:51:31.580 because the
00:51:32.880 notion about
00:51:33.800 the emergency
00:51:34.420 use authorization
00:51:35.360 is incorrect.
00:51:37.120 Firstly,
00:51:38.540 that is
00:51:39.380 the definition
00:51:40.600 in the setting
00:51:41.940 of a pandemic
00:51:43.040 or a crisis
00:51:43.920 for the FDA
00:51:44.880 is may be
00:51:46.880 effective.
00:51:47.740 That's all
00:51:48.400 it takes.
00:51:48.940 It may be
00:51:49.480 effective.
00:51:50.180 It doesn't
00:51:50.620 have to be
00:51:51.220 that there's
00:51:51.940 no other
00:51:52.560 treatment.
00:51:53.960 As long as
00:51:54.540 something may
00:51:55.200 be effective
00:51:55.620 in an emergency
00:51:56.380 situation,
00:51:57.700 the FDA
00:51:58.300 has the
00:51:59.320 ability
00:52:00.120 to push
00:52:00.860 forward.
00:52:01.540 As they
00:52:01.920 did,
00:52:02.740 you may
00:52:03.120 recall,
00:52:04.060 they gave
00:52:04.480 an EUA
00:52:05.100 for hydroxychloroquine.
00:52:07.020 They gave
00:52:07.680 an EUA
00:52:08.320 for convalescent
00:52:09.400 plasma.
00:52:10.760 There already
00:52:11.220 were other
00:52:12.140 things,
00:52:13.180 like, for
00:52:13.680 example,
00:52:14.000 when the
00:52:14.260 convalescent
00:52:14.780 plasma was
00:52:15.520 granted,
00:52:15.980 which was
00:52:16.280 wrong and
00:52:16.720 had to be
00:52:17.100 withdrawn,
00:52:17.680 as was
00:52:18.060 a hydroxychloroquine.
00:52:19.660 Both of
00:52:20.080 those were,
00:52:21.260 there were
00:52:21.640 other things
00:52:22.420 out there
00:52:23.020 for treatment.
00:52:24.320 That is,
00:52:24.820 when the
00:52:25.240 plasma,
00:52:26.220 they were
00:52:26.500 already,
00:52:26.940 so, you
00:52:27.720 know,
00:52:28.000 we've been
00:52:28.700 through this,
00:52:29.440 where there
00:52:29.800 were all
00:52:30.720 sorts of
00:52:31.620 scents,
00:52:32.780 whether it
00:52:33.220 was then
00:52:34.380 president or
00:52:35.460 other people
00:52:36.600 following the
00:52:37.700 president,
00:52:38.200 that hydroxychloroquine
00:52:39.380 was, you
00:52:40.320 know, some
00:52:40.680 magical drug,
00:52:42.100 and it proved
00:52:42.700 not only to not
00:52:43.500 have an effect,
00:52:44.180 but to also
00:52:44.900 have some
00:52:45.860 dangers.
00:52:46.820 The
00:52:46.940 convalescent
00:52:47.500 plasma,
00:52:48.440 where over
00:52:49.000 600,000
00:52:50.240 Americans got
00:52:51.080 convalescent
00:52:51.680 plasma because
00:52:52.880 of a tortured
00:52:53.520 data analysis
00:52:54.420 without a
00:52:54.980 randomized trial.
00:52:56.280 That was
00:52:56.660 given an
00:52:57.100 emergency use
00:52:57.800 authorization,
00:52:58.200 which promoted
00:52:59.120 hundreds of
00:52:59.900 thousands to
00:53:00.480 get the
00:53:01.260 treatment,
00:53:01.880 and may have
00:53:02.400 actually helped
00:53:03.460 to spur on
00:53:04.300 these variants,
00:53:05.160 because they
00:53:05.940 were getting
00:53:06.360 these polyclonal
00:53:07.420 antibodies that
00:53:08.800 certainly wasn't
00:53:09.500 helping the
00:53:10.020 situation,
00:53:10.840 helping them.
00:53:12.020 So, you
00:53:12.620 know, then
00:53:13.080 comes ivermectin.
00:53:14.640 Now, I've
00:53:14.980 reviewed that
00:53:15.460 data carefully,
00:53:17.080 because, you
00:53:18.200 know, on
00:53:19.160 Twitter, if I
00:53:19.820 put anything on
00:53:20.900 Twitter, you
00:53:21.520 know, I usually
00:53:22.100 get at least some
00:53:22.800 comments about,
00:53:24.060 did they get
00:53:24.460 ivermectin, or
00:53:25.440 if only they
00:53:26.120 had ivermectin.
00:53:26.820 They all had
00:53:27.400 ivermectin, no
00:53:28.120 one needs a
00:53:28.660 vaccine, this
00:53:29.320 kind of stuff,
00:53:30.120 right?
00:53:30.680 And so, where
00:53:31.440 did this come
00:53:32.140 from?
00:53:33.100 So, it turns
00:53:33.760 out, you
00:53:34.240 know, there are
00:53:35.340 a bunch of
00:53:36.020 small studies,
00:53:37.480 right?
00:53:38.420 And they've
00:53:38.880 been meta-analyzed
00:53:40.120 multiple times
00:53:41.420 by different
00:53:42.060 parties.
00:53:43.360 And, you
00:53:43.920 know, I
00:53:44.240 think the
00:53:44.620 best raking
00:53:45.940 over of the
00:53:46.780 data was by
00:53:48.040 this fellow
00:53:48.600 Gideon Meyerowitz
00:53:49.920 Katz, who
00:53:51.240 put together,
00:53:52.800 is ivermectin
00:53:53.560 for COVID-19
00:53:54.720 based on
00:53:55.440 fraudulent
00:53:56.260 research?
00:53:57.920 And that was
00:53:58.380 just, you
00:53:58.940 know, earlier
00:53:59.380 this month on
00:54:00.540 a medium.
00:54:01.860 Now, in it,
00:54:02.760 he takes an
00:54:03.660 unbiased view
00:54:04.660 and very careful
00:54:06.320 view of
00:54:07.920 ivermectin,
00:54:08.600 which is an
00:54:09.360 anti-parasitic
00:54:10.300 medicine, as
00:54:10.960 you mentioned.
00:54:11.640 It has been
00:54:12.520 used for
00:54:12.940 river blindness,
00:54:14.080 it is used
00:54:14.820 for lice,
00:54:15.780 it is used
00:54:16.220 for various
00:54:17.120 parasitic
00:54:17.940 diseases, and
00:54:19.360 it's relatively
00:54:19.940 safe.
00:54:20.460 I mean, there
00:54:20.720 are some
00:54:21.180 serious side
00:54:21.980 effects, but
00:54:22.500 they're uncommon.
00:54:24.140 Now, the
00:54:24.700 point here is
00:54:25.300 that, what
00:54:25.960 about these
00:54:26.440 trials?
00:54:27.360 Do we have
00:54:27.900 any large
00:54:28.580 trials?
00:54:29.200 The trials
00:54:29.600 like, you
00:54:30.440 know, I
00:54:31.120 did one of
00:54:32.120 the largest
00:54:32.520 clinical trials
00:54:33.420 in medicine
00:54:35.340 with 41,000
00:54:37.640 patients in
00:54:38.920 18 countries
00:54:40.120 around the
00:54:40.960 world for
00:54:41.580 heart attack.
00:54:42.940 And, you
00:54:43.580 know, I
00:54:43.740 know what a
00:54:44.600 large trial is
00:54:45.440 when I see
00:54:46.300 it, mega
00:54:46.900 trials, over
00:54:47.560 10,000, which
00:54:48.740 is what you
00:54:49.180 want and what
00:54:49.900 the UK has
00:54:50.980 done in the
00:54:51.680 recovery trials.
00:54:53.100 You know, we
00:54:53.400 haven't had one
00:54:54.140 large trial in
00:54:55.040 the whole COVID-19
00:54:56.420 pandemic done in
00:54:57.960 the United States,
00:54:59.020 but these
00:54:59.760 trials, these
00:55:01.100 trials of
00:55:01.640 ivermectin are
00:55:03.040 exceptionally
00:55:03.720 small.
00:55:05.220 And the
00:55:05.480 largest one
00:55:06.240 was this
00:55:06.920 one from
00:55:07.320 Egypt, which
00:55:08.140 Gideon
00:55:09.240 Meyerowitz
00:55:09.940 Katz shows
00:55:11.540 was highly
00:55:12.460 irregular.
00:55:13.600 One-third of
00:55:14.100 the people who
00:55:14.640 died from COVID
00:55:15.460 in the trial
00:55:16.320 were already
00:55:16.760 dead when the
00:55:17.980 researchers started
00:55:18.660 to recruit
00:55:19.160 them.
00:55:19.600 I mean, you
00:55:20.540 just don't see
00:55:21.100 this kind of
00:55:21.500 stuff.
00:55:21.620 You need a
00:55:22.060 time machine
00:55:22.580 to run that
00:55:23.400 trial.
00:55:24.540 You have,
00:55:26.100 quote, if
00:55:26.720 this is an
00:55:27.220 outright fraud,
00:55:28.220 the ethical
00:55:28.660 concerns of
00:55:29.340 randomizing people
00:55:30.240 into a clinical
00:55:30.820 trial before the
00:55:31.720 ethical approval
00:55:32.840 comes through
00:55:34.140 is enormous.
00:55:35.120 And, you
00:55:35.480 know, his
00:55:36.080 piece, you
00:55:36.740 know, takes
00:55:37.100 this part in
00:55:38.280 terms of the
00:55:39.140 fact that this
00:55:39.860 trial from
00:55:40.700 Egypt, the
00:55:41.280 largest, which
00:55:41.940 isn't large at
00:55:42.700 all, I mean,
00:55:43.320 this, you
00:55:44.020 know, few
00:55:44.360 hundred people
00:55:45.100 in either arm
00:55:45.960 of ivermectin,
00:55:47.500 this is not
00:55:48.460 what you would
00:55:48.980 call any
00:55:49.940 evidence for
00:55:51.260 making ivermectin
00:55:52.380 a standard
00:55:52.900 drug.
00:55:53.360 Now, I see a
00:55:55.260 signal there that
00:55:56.260 ivermectin could
00:55:57.440 be beneficial.
00:55:58.320 I don't know
00:55:58.800 why.
00:55:59.360 I don't know
00:55:59.760 the mechanism.
00:56:00.820 And I would
00:56:01.180 also hasten to
00:56:02.080 add that
00:56:02.840 you know, our
00:56:03.620 place and many
00:56:04.360 others have
00:56:05.140 raked through
00:56:05.980 every drug
00:56:06.780 known to
00:56:07.160 mankind for
00:56:08.040 repurposing.
00:56:09.440 That is, most
00:56:11.120 molecules, drugs
00:56:12.300 have been
00:56:12.760 characterized.
00:56:14.100 We know their
00:56:14.500 structure and we
00:56:16.040 can match up
00:56:17.000 whether it would
00:56:17.640 work against
00:56:18.220 this virus.
00:56:18.960 And ivermectin
00:56:19.580 has never shown
00:56:20.360 up despite
00:56:20.920 hundreds of
00:56:21.820 others that
00:56:22.400 have for
00:56:23.320 having an
00:56:24.220 antiviral
00:56:25.040 specific qualities.
00:56:26.440 But putting the
00:56:26.980 biology aside, it
00:56:28.760 looks like there's
00:56:29.340 a signal.
00:56:29.840 But for
00:56:30.740 anyone to
00:56:31.480 say that
00:56:32.340 this should
00:56:32.760 be given
00:56:33.120 universally, and
00:56:34.220 as Brett
00:56:35.660 Weinstein has
00:56:36.420 said, and
00:56:37.280 others, that
00:56:37.860 it's 99%
00:56:39.200 effective, there
00:56:41.980 is no drug
00:56:42.880 that's 99%
00:56:43.940 effective, known
00:56:45.100 to man.
00:56:46.200 And then to
00:56:46.780 say it reduces
00:56:47.620 mortality or
00:56:48.940 improves survival
00:56:49.700 by 70, 80,
00:56:51.080 90%, these are
00:56:52.440 impossible, they
00:56:53.880 have never
00:56:54.400 occurred, this
00:56:55.900 is just not
00:56:57.120 acceptable.
00:56:58.660 Yeah, well,
00:56:59.140 what's conspicuous
00:57:02.020 here is what I
00:57:02.980 am not saying
00:57:03.940 in Brett's
00:57:04.940 defense.
00:57:05.680 I mean, Brett
00:57:06.120 is somebody who
00:57:06.840 I consider a
00:57:07.780 friend, he's
00:57:08.440 definitely a
00:57:08.980 colleague, he's
00:57:09.800 moderated some
00:57:10.620 of my debates,
00:57:11.720 I know his
00:57:12.280 brother, Eric,
00:57:13.380 very well, he's
00:57:14.540 a fellow
00:57:14.800 podcaster, we've
00:57:16.320 been on each
00:57:16.680 other's podcasts.
00:57:18.160 I guess I would
00:57:18.780 say that I
00:57:19.200 haven't heard
00:57:20.100 everything he
00:57:20.840 has said on
00:57:21.260 this topic, and
00:57:22.400 he's gone on
00:57:22.960 for many, many
00:57:23.620 hours, I know,
00:57:24.760 but I've
00:57:25.760 heard enough
00:57:26.360 to be very
00:57:27.480 uncomfortable
00:57:27.960 with what he
00:57:28.900 has put out
00:57:29.500 there, and I
00:57:30.840 do consider it
00:57:31.720 dangerous, what
00:57:33.820 strikes me as
00:57:34.700 just frank
00:57:35.640 misinformation
00:57:36.220 getting pushed
00:57:37.800 out there to
00:57:38.340 millions and
00:57:38.960 millions of
00:57:39.340 people.
00:57:40.300 But it is,
00:57:40.880 in Brett's
00:57:42.480 case, born of
00:57:43.860 almost a
00:57:45.140 characterological
00:57:46.980 bias against
00:57:49.580 institutions at
00:57:51.740 this point,
00:57:52.980 some of which I
00:57:53.740 do understand,
00:57:54.760 I mean, so
00:57:55.560 like, for
00:57:56.100 instance, one
00:57:56.640 thing that's
00:57:57.360 really animating
00:57:58.260 him is the
00:57:59.940 response to
00:58:01.900 what he's
00:58:02.880 doing from
00:58:04.180 the big tech
00:58:05.660 companies, right?
00:58:06.480 So the fact
00:58:06.880 that YouTube
00:58:07.440 will demonetize
00:58:09.080 the episodes of
00:58:10.000 his podcast,
00:58:11.240 where he
00:58:11.540 discusses
00:58:12.080 ivermectin,
00:58:13.460 I'm torn even
00:58:14.280 here, I don't
00:58:14.720 know what
00:58:15.480 YouTube and
00:58:16.440 Facebook and
00:58:17.080 all of these
00:58:17.420 companies should
00:58:18.360 be doing.
00:58:18.980 I mean, there's
00:58:19.360 certainly a
00:58:20.000 straightforward
00:58:20.320 argument that
00:58:21.440 they should be
00:58:22.000 censoring what
00:58:23.860 is obviously
00:58:24.380 misinformation.
00:58:25.760 But the
00:58:26.140 problem here is
00:58:26.820 that many
00:58:28.060 things that
00:58:28.560 were wrong
00:58:29.380 yesterday are
00:58:31.000 considered good
00:58:32.040 information today,
00:58:33.200 right?
00:58:33.500 And it's like,
00:58:34.040 they're very
00:58:34.400 unlikely to get
00:58:35.260 censorship right.
00:58:37.000 You know, what
00:58:37.620 is outlier
00:58:38.260 thinking and can
00:58:39.800 be deemed
00:58:40.360 dangerous or
00:58:41.240 irresponsible can,
00:58:42.780 in the fullness
00:58:43.120 of time, prove to
00:58:44.520 be the only
00:58:45.400 correct view.
00:58:46.220 So it's just a
00:58:47.500 difficult problem
00:58:48.320 that they show
00:58:49.140 no sign of
00:58:50.300 being able to
00:58:51.200 solve.
00:58:52.600 And, you
00:58:52.940 know, Brett
00:58:53.420 and everyone
00:58:54.100 who's listening
00:58:54.840 to him are
00:58:55.920 incredibly
00:58:56.440 animated by
00:58:57.500 their clumsy
00:58:58.960 efforts at
00:58:59.980 censorship, because
00:59:01.080 they can always
00:59:01.840 point to the
00:59:02.380 instance where
00:59:02.940 what they
00:59:03.320 censored was,
00:59:04.940 you know,
00:59:05.140 actually is now
00:59:06.380 CDC policy,
00:59:07.540 right?
00:59:07.720 You know, at one
00:59:08.440 point CDC was
00:59:09.440 against mask
00:59:10.880 wearing, right?
00:59:11.640 And you're
00:59:11.920 going to censor
00:59:12.860 the people who
00:59:13.320 said we should
00:59:13.700 have been wearing
00:59:14.100 masks a year
00:59:15.040 ago.
00:59:15.260 It was just
00:59:16.380 obvious we
00:59:16.860 should have
00:59:17.060 been wearing
00:59:17.340 masks.
00:59:18.280 It's a hard
00:59:19.020 problem to
00:59:19.500 solve in terms
00:59:20.280 of a response,
00:59:21.380 and it's easy
00:59:22.120 to see how
00:59:22.700 people get
00:59:24.120 freaked out by
00:59:25.660 the authoritarian
00:59:27.300 implications of
00:59:29.520 having these
00:59:30.580 virtually monopolistic
00:59:31.940 companies close
00:59:33.180 down conversation
00:59:34.420 on specific
00:59:35.240 topics.
00:59:36.540 But it's a
00:59:37.920 nightmare what's
00:59:38.620 happening in
00:59:39.120 terms of how
00:59:39.840 friction-free the
00:59:41.360 spread of
00:59:42.220 misinformation has
00:59:43.320 become.
00:59:43.960 So I don't
00:59:44.420 know what your
00:59:44.780 thoughts are on
00:59:45.920 the front of
00:59:46.380 what we should
00:59:47.380 be doing.
00:59:47.940 And also just
00:59:48.560 to close the
00:59:49.020 loop on
00:59:49.400 Brett's concern
00:59:50.680 here, it's not
00:59:52.360 just that the
00:59:52.800 big tech
00:59:53.360 companies are
00:59:53.940 doing it, but
00:59:54.620 there really is
00:59:55.460 a conspiracy
00:59:56.360 that's happening
00:59:57.160 out in the
00:59:57.620 open where
00:59:58.720 you have the
00:59:59.160 government asking
01:00:00.700 the big tech
01:00:01.620 companies to do
01:00:02.480 this.
01:00:03.320 Right, right.
01:00:04.080 It's not that no
01:00:04.680 one ever conspires,
01:00:06.180 even in this
01:00:06.700 case they even
01:00:07.360 admit that they're
01:00:08.260 conspiring, but
01:00:09.800 certainly viewed
01:00:11.520 from one side
01:00:12.300 it seems
01:00:13.060 counterproductive,
01:00:14.420 as bad as the
01:00:15.420 misinformation and
01:00:16.620 disinformation
01:00:17.080 problem has
01:00:18.080 become.
01:00:19.500 Yeah, no, I
01:00:20.180 am sympathetic
01:00:20.820 to the point
01:00:22.280 that everyone
01:00:23.800 should be heard
01:00:24.720 and things
01:00:25.540 shouldn't be
01:00:25.960 censored.
01:00:27.020 That I think
01:00:27.700 is clear.
01:00:28.400 However, when
01:00:29.900 it has come to
01:00:30.860 a point where
01:00:31.680 it leads to
01:00:33.580 harm of
01:00:34.300 people, then
01:00:35.840 you have to
01:00:36.240 say, well, is
01:00:37.360 this crossing the
01:00:38.440 line when you're
01:00:39.600 harming a lot
01:00:40.200 of people?
01:00:40.840 Now, I think
01:00:42.380 the conspiracy
01:00:43.040 theories and
01:00:44.860 theorists get
01:00:45.900 tremendous amount
01:00:46.860 of fuel when
01:00:47.780 this happens.
01:00:48.660 So, for example,
01:00:49.400 if we go back
01:00:49.960 to the lab leak
01:00:50.980 origin versus
01:00:52.440 the natural
01:00:53.560 zoonotic origin
01:00:54.940 of the virus
01:00:56.440 from zoonotic
01:00:58.440 to human,
01:00:59.920 there were a lot
01:01:00.900 of people who
01:01:02.040 initially in the
01:01:03.520 science community
01:01:04.240 advanced that
01:01:05.660 this had to be
01:01:06.340 a natural, not
01:01:07.400 a leak at the
01:01:08.380 Wuhan Virology
01:01:09.360 Institute, and
01:01:10.420 then as time
01:01:11.000 went on, there
01:01:11.900 were more and
01:01:12.720 more irregularities,
01:01:13.720 still no definitive
01:01:14.860 evidence either
01:01:16.040 way, and we may
01:01:17.280 never get that
01:01:17.960 definitive evidence,
01:01:18.880 but basically, the
01:01:20.420 people's voices who
01:01:22.080 were not being
01:01:22.980 heard regarding the
01:01:24.820 Wuhan Institute
01:01:25.940 lab leak, assuming
01:01:27.800 an accidental
01:01:28.540 lab leak, they
01:01:29.760 got more
01:01:31.900 concerning
01:01:32.840 substance, and
01:01:34.500 then the
01:01:34.760 conspiracy theorists
01:01:35.980 would say, huh,
01:01:36.740 there you go,
01:01:37.640 right?
01:01:37.860 And they were
01:01:38.800 saying that at
01:01:39.800 the beginning, and
01:01:40.960 so now you have
01:01:41.860 another parallel
01:01:42.680 where, you know,
01:01:43.540 whether it's
01:01:44.760 ivermectin or, you
01:01:47.200 know, vaccines, you
01:01:48.960 have people who are
01:01:50.420 pushing these agendas,
01:01:52.920 and you know what?
01:01:54.440 I don't have a problem
01:01:55.420 with pushing ivermectin
01:01:57.040 as advancing it as a
01:01:58.960 candidate drug that we
01:02:00.200 need totally.
01:02:01.300 There's 2,200 people in
01:02:03.660 randomized trials.
01:02:04.480 Most of the randomized
01:02:05.280 trials are, you know,
01:02:06.880 20, 40, 60 people.
01:02:09.200 2,000 people to say it
01:02:10.840 should be given
01:02:11.340 universally and has
01:02:12.240 99% effective?
01:02:14.360 That's not, you can't
01:02:16.320 make that assertion.
01:02:17.520 And, you know, I
01:02:18.080 listened to Brett, a
01:02:20.260 couple of his
01:02:20.900 podcasts, interview with
01:02:22.940 Tess Laurie, one of
01:02:24.360 the UK scientists who
01:02:26.160 he has been aligned
01:02:27.060 with, and I can tell
01:02:28.420 he's an intelligent
01:02:29.220 fellow.
01:02:29.940 I mean, he's a bright
01:02:30.540 fellow, but he doesn't
01:02:32.180 know how to do
01:02:32.800 clinical trials, and
01:02:34.340 he shouldn't be
01:02:34.960 passing himself off as
01:02:36.200 an expert to
01:02:37.360 interpret that data.
01:02:38.780 These are not what we
01:02:39.760 would consider
01:02:40.380 definitive trials.
01:02:41.840 Now, it should be
01:02:42.980 pursued.
01:02:44.060 Ivermectin is a very
01:02:45.240 inexpensive and
01:02:46.200 relatively safe drug,
01:02:47.340 and it may indeed
01:02:48.220 have, you know, very
01:02:49.660 positive effects, but
01:02:51.400 he shouldn't be, you
01:02:53.260 know, having emergency
01:02:54.820 podcasts, and then the
01:02:57.440 people that he brings
01:02:58.380 together, like, for
01:02:59.400 example, the Dr.
01:03:01.180 Kirsch, who said
01:03:02.740 the COVID vaccines
01:03:03.840 have caused more
01:03:04.980 deaths than have
01:03:06.140 all other vaccines
01:03:07.520 combined over the
01:03:08.660 last 30 years.
01:03:09.600 This is somebody he
01:03:10.380 brought on as a
01:03:11.100 guest, okay?
01:03:12.200 And then you have him
01:03:13.220 also lined up with
01:03:14.660 the Frontline COVID-19
01:03:17.340 Critical Care Alliance
01:03:19.040 for an emergency
01:03:20.380 podcast with Joe
01:03:21.740 Rogan, making these
01:03:23.540 claims, there's
01:03:24.540 something serious
01:03:25.480 afoot, the public is
01:03:26.580 largely unaware, they
01:03:28.520 have been placed in
01:03:29.360 kind of danger, 99%
01:03:31.080 effective ivermectin, the
01:03:32.840 pandemic would end in
01:03:34.080 a month, that is
01:03:35.440 complete balderdash,
01:03:37.580 okay?
01:03:37.940 The pandemic will not
01:03:39.200 end in a month, and
01:03:40.040 there is no drug or no
01:03:41.420 vaccine that's 99%
01:03:42.760 effective.
01:03:43.180 So, the problem here,
01:03:44.960 Sam, I see, is that he
01:03:46.940 is overstepped, that is,
01:03:49.120 he's aligned himself or
01:03:50.420 had guests who are
01:03:52.500 saying things that he
01:03:55.280 then has a large
01:03:56.540 following, and instead of
01:03:58.200 taking a critical view,
01:03:59.920 he, this is, I'm sure
01:04:01.940 he's upset with
01:04:02.740 the censoring, I would
01:04:04.480 be too, but it doesn't
01:04:06.020 mean it should go, you
01:04:07.700 know, across the line as
01:04:08.960 to advancing things or
01:04:10.840 people who have, and
01:04:13.540 saying things like, you
01:04:14.600 know, for example, the
01:04:15.400 headache, which is, you
01:04:16.660 know, the mRNA crossing
01:04:18.360 into the brain, these are
01:04:19.640 unfounded things, and
01:04:21.380 they're dangerous things,
01:04:22.560 and that's where I have a
01:04:23.480 concern.
01:04:24.580 What do you make of the
01:04:25.200 fact that some of these
01:04:26.040 people who he's brought
01:04:27.880 on his show, and at
01:04:29.180 least one, I think he
01:04:30.400 was on with Rogan, with
01:04:31.580 at least one other
01:04:32.620 person, these people are
01:04:34.160 MDs with seemingly
01:04:36.580 relevant credentials in
01:04:38.440 caring for people with
01:04:40.360 COVID, and I mean, these
01:04:41.620 are not MDs who have
01:04:42.800 been sidelined from
01:04:44.080 malpractice years ago, and
01:04:45.720 they should be credible
01:04:47.340 sources of information
01:04:48.380 here, and it is, it's
01:04:51.400 genuinely bewildering,
01:04:52.980 even to very smart people,
01:04:54.280 to see an MD who
01:04:57.180 purports to be close to
01:04:58.960 the data, and in one
01:05:00.560 case, one of these
01:05:01.320 people who even claimed
01:05:02.420 to be the originator of
01:05:04.260 mRNA vaccine technology,
01:05:06.320 I don't know how
01:05:06.800 specious that claim
01:05:07.580 was.
01:05:07.680 Yeah, this is actually
01:05:09.980 one of the chief
01:05:10.620 offenders, I'm glad you
01:05:11.740 mentioned it, Sam, is
01:05:12.900 Dr. Malone, Dr. Malone
01:05:14.860 who puts out that he was
01:05:16.320 the inventor of the mRNA
01:05:17.440 vaccines, well, guess
01:05:18.580 what, he wasn't the
01:05:19.620 inventor, and what he
01:05:21.060 does is he's now the
01:05:23.380 person who is leading
01:05:25.200 the charge against the
01:05:26.380 vaccines, and people
01:05:28.400 unknowingly, because he
01:05:29.720 identifies himself as the
01:05:31.040 inventor, this is the
01:05:33.640 perfect fuel for the
01:05:35.780 conspiracy, I mean, it's
01:05:37.020 incredible, you couldn't
01:05:38.280 make this stuff up that
01:05:39.240 person who positions
01:05:40.380 himself as the inventor,
01:05:42.160 having worked, you know,
01:05:43.560 decades ago on a path, but
01:05:46.180 he is not the inventor of
01:05:47.960 either of the mRNA
01:05:49.540 vaccines, okay, and then
01:05:51.680 also, you know, the
01:05:53.480 frontline doctors, the
01:05:55.020 frontline doctors that
01:05:56.700 one of which, one of
01:05:58.480 whom, I should say, was
01:06:00.360 part of this, they are
01:06:01.860 the ones who are suing
01:06:02.980 the government right
01:06:04.020 now that the vaccine
01:06:05.760 should be taken off the
01:06:06.800 market, okay, so we
01:06:08.680 have a problem here, you
01:06:10.180 know, this is a group of
01:06:12.220 people who are either
01:06:14.440 unwittingly or knowingly
01:06:17.220 harming people who don't
01:06:19.380 know better, who, I
01:06:20.600 have to say, you know,
01:06:21.480 their channel of
01:06:23.160 disinformation is, I
01:06:26.220 consider, predatory,
01:06:27.960 because it's not based
01:06:28.960 on the right evidence
01:06:30.040 and data, and I don't
01:06:31.540 want to see it censored,
01:06:32.760 but I also want to see
01:06:33.740 it toned down and stick
01:06:35.160 with the facts, don't
01:06:36.640 make stuff up.
01:06:38.640 Yeah, so, again, people
01:06:39.940 are going to find this
01:06:40.600 hard to adjudicate,
01:06:42.280 because on the one hand,
01:06:43.420 it's you and me talking
01:06:45.040 about this, and, you
01:06:46.160 know, you're an MD with
01:06:48.000 a seemingly relevant
01:06:49.540 background, and we're up
01:06:51.400 against Brett Weinstein
01:06:52.980 and his MDs, and it's
01:06:55.080 a, he said, she said
01:06:56.900 situation where you
01:06:58.880 sort of have to pick the
01:06:59.780 authority who you trust,
01:07:02.600 but that, I mean, there's
01:07:03.720 more information than that.
01:07:06.160 That's a standoff, but
01:07:07.580 we're living in the
01:07:09.100 presence of the largest
01:07:11.600 vaccine and disease
01:07:14.320 experiment ever run,
01:07:16.080 right?
01:07:16.300 We're talking about
01:07:17.140 tens of millions, even
01:07:18.500 hundreds of millions of
01:07:19.600 people getting the
01:07:21.120 disease under conditions
01:07:22.740 of being vaccinated or
01:07:25.060 not, and the disparity
01:07:28.180 in the results is so
01:07:30.540 clear at this point, and
01:07:33.520 again, even if you take
01:07:35.460 the worst numbers from the
01:07:37.300 most vaccine avoidant as
01:07:39.920 the ground truth for
01:07:41.040 what these vaccines do
01:07:42.160 to you, it's still an
01:07:44.000 easy decision to get
01:07:46.080 vaccinated to mitigate
01:07:47.940 your risk.
01:07:48.740 Yeah, I mean, when you
01:07:50.500 have vaccine trials done
01:07:52.620 around the world, you know,
01:07:54.440 the first two, the mRNAs
01:07:55.920 and 75,000 people, and
01:07:57.800 then, you know, since that
01:07:59.000 time, hundreds of
01:08:00.300 thousand more
01:08:01.200 participants in
01:08:02.220 randomized, double-blind
01:08:03.440 trials.
01:08:03.920 I mean, these are the real
01:08:04.560 deal.
01:08:05.140 Then you have, you know,
01:08:06.120 2,200 people in all of
01:08:07.760 the ivermectin trials
01:08:08.780 total, you know, around
01:08:11.280 the world.
01:08:12.140 I mean, there's a little
01:08:12.920 bit difference in the
01:08:13.900 weight of evidence, the
01:08:15.060 totality of evidence, also
01:08:17.640 with the safety, and I
01:08:18.900 think that should drive
01:08:20.820 people, if they truly are
01:08:22.680 data-driven, evidence-based,
01:08:25.340 even if you're not with a
01:08:26.840 medical or science
01:08:28.000 background, you want to see
01:08:29.880 totality of evidence, and
01:08:31.600 you don't want to see
01:08:32.700 things that are just either
01:08:34.880 made up or, you know,
01:08:37.640 fueled by these, I would
01:08:40.940 say, you know, a good
01:08:43.600 example of somebody who I
01:08:45.020 know, known from the past
01:08:46.400 is Alex Berenson, okay?
01:08:48.080 He's a formerly an
01:08:49.660 excellent New York Times
01:08:50.880 journalist.
01:08:52.280 He then wrote a bunch of
01:08:54.060 novels that were highly
01:08:55.220 successful, and spy
01:08:57.120 thrillers, and now he's a
01:08:59.260 regular on Fox News,
01:09:01.160 talking badly about
01:09:02.360 vaccines, and making stuff
01:09:04.820 up, and using data,
01:09:06.500 manipulating data, okay?
01:09:08.060 And of course, you know,
01:09:09.160 he's a hit with this
01:09:10.900 group, right?
01:09:11.980 But he has no background.
01:09:14.240 He has no clinical trials
01:09:15.400 background, no science
01:09:16.740 background, but he is a
01:09:18.860 darling of those who want
01:09:20.940 to be fed with this kind
01:09:22.320 of information.
01:09:22.680 Well, but how do you
01:09:23.520 explain, Eric, the people
01:09:25.600 who do have the relevant
01:09:26.740 background going this far
01:09:29.240 down the wrong rabbit hole?
01:09:30.800 I mean, just the MDs who
01:09:32.100 Brett has in his stable,
01:09:34.820 what are they up to?
01:09:36.540 I mean, what has happened?
01:09:37.500 I mean, one way to explain
01:09:38.760 it, it's a fairly invidious
01:09:40.400 thing to say, but there's
01:09:42.720 some percentage of MDs and
01:09:44.600 PhDs and people who have
01:09:46.340 all the right credentials on
01:09:47.500 paper who snap for one
01:09:50.580 reason or another.
01:09:51.360 I mean, they're just, they're
01:09:52.040 going through, you know,
01:09:53.660 some inordinate stress in
01:09:54.780 their life, or they're
01:09:55.640 actually delusional.
01:09:57.780 We basically have a
01:09:58.680 background level of
01:10:00.120 schizophrenia in any human
01:10:01.680 population of 1%, right?
01:10:03.500 So, you will occasionally
01:10:04.860 find crazy MDs and PhDs who
01:10:07.720 will testify about anything.
01:10:10.100 Now, I'm not making a
01:10:10.980 specific allegation with
01:10:12.040 respect to the people we've
01:10:13.240 named, but you have to
01:10:15.080 expect that you can always
01:10:17.720 find a crackpot PhD or MD
01:10:20.720 for any, I mean, you can find
01:10:22.940 them to defend big tobacco.
01:10:25.320 There are people who will,
01:10:26.300 either cynically or based on
01:10:27.960 some derangement will back
01:10:31.280 any cause and put their
01:10:33.640 credentials to that purpose.
01:10:35.180 But do you have any other
01:10:35.940 sense of what's going on with
01:10:37.660 these guys?
01:10:39.160 Yeah, you're making a really
01:10:40.940 valid point here, and that
01:10:42.820 is we have seen people who
01:10:44.740 have a medical degree who are
01:10:47.640 not supporting the body of data
01:10:50.840 that's so overwhelming regarding
01:10:52.540 safety of vaccines or the lack
01:10:55.320 of adequate proof, for
01:10:57.380 example, in the case of
01:10:58.400 ivermectin.
01:10:59.800 And, you know, the answer for
01:11:01.720 that is difficult to come up
01:11:03.600 with, why?
01:11:05.160 But I think the thing that
01:11:07.240 hasn't been done, I'll go back
01:11:08.660 to something we discussed
01:11:10.120 early in our conversation.
01:11:12.860 If we had a counteroffensive
01:11:14.700 for the facts, that is, if we
01:11:18.460 had said, you know, remember
01:11:20.060 when Trump was very frequently
01:11:22.940 lying and there was a fellow on
01:11:25.100 CNN that was the official
01:11:26.820 fact checker, and he would
01:11:28.400 take them on one by one and
01:11:30.040 get the facts, okay?
01:11:31.200 And he did an exceptional job
01:11:33.480 of that.
01:11:33.780 He was pretty busy, you have to
01:11:35.100 say, throughout the time of
01:11:36.520 the...
01:11:36.760 It was like 20,000 documented
01:11:38.600 lies or something.
01:11:40.280 Right, right.
01:11:41.100 Well, anyway, we don't have
01:11:42.260 that in the pandemic.
01:11:44.660 If the people were called out
01:11:46.520 for lying or for fact-free,
01:11:49.400 you know, they might back
01:11:51.920 off, but when they have a
01:11:53.940 license to just make stuff
01:11:55.660 up or twist things, you know,
01:11:59.060 to not acknowledge that the
01:12:00.400 VAERS registry is, none of it
01:12:03.940 has been adjudicated.
01:12:05.280 None of it we know of any
01:12:06.680 events, or we know that they
01:12:08.560 actually happened and what was
01:12:09.820 the potentially known root cause
01:12:12.400 of these events.
01:12:13.560 But they don't do that.
01:12:14.820 They use this, that's a data
01:12:16.560 that's abused in the highest
01:12:18.940 way.
01:12:19.400 But there's something about
01:12:21.920 being a contrarian, too.
01:12:23.820 I mean, you know, you're a
01:12:24.980 minority, you're in a different
01:12:26.720 circle.
01:12:28.320 The people in this group are
01:12:30.020 very, you know, seem to be
01:12:33.900 close-knit and, you know, kind
01:12:36.760 of spurring each other on.
01:12:39.300 You know, perhaps the
01:12:40.360 fellowship of being in this
01:12:42.360 group is alluring.
01:12:44.120 I just don't know.
01:12:44.920 It's sad to see, though,
01:12:46.520 because I know these people
01:12:48.140 are intelligent, and they
01:12:50.000 must recognize the lapses in
01:12:52.760 what they're pushing.
01:12:55.180 Yeah, what I don't think people
01:12:57.000 recognize, I mean, people who
01:12:58.940 have a conspiratorial style of
01:13:01.840 explaining anomalies don't tend
01:13:04.640 to recognize that their
01:13:06.860 explanations don't actually run
01:13:09.340 through.
01:13:09.980 I mean, there's no plausible
01:13:11.160 background set of incentives
01:13:12.840 that could explain a given
01:13:15.300 conspiracy coming together.
01:13:16.920 I mean, so you take, you
01:13:17.720 know, like the 9-11 truth
01:13:19.080 conspiracy as an analogy.
01:13:21.480 You talk to conspiracy-minded
01:13:23.040 people on that topic, and
01:13:24.360 they'll just toss off one
01:13:26.780 claim after another without
01:13:28.360 acknowledging the truly
01:13:30.980 insurmountable obstacles around
01:13:33.820 getting people whose incentives
01:13:36.360 are not perfectly aligned to
01:13:38.220 collaborate in such an awful
01:13:40.180 project, right?
01:13:41.200 So, like, who rigged the Twin
01:13:43.220 Towers to explode, right?
01:13:45.420 Like, just what, just how many
01:13:46.860 hours does it take to go into
01:13:48.480 those buildings unobserved and
01:13:50.140 rig them to explode, right?
01:13:52.180 And, you know, how do you get
01:13:53.820 hundreds or thousands of people
01:13:55.540 to collaborate in that project of
01:13:57.680 murdering their neighbors on a
01:13:59.660 bright fall morning and then
01:14:02.080 never breathe a word of it
01:14:03.500 afterwards?
01:14:03.860 I mean, no one feels guilty, no
01:14:05.840 one divorced their husband and
01:14:08.640 then spilled the beans.
01:14:09.760 I mean, it's just perfect silence,
01:14:11.520 perfect collaboration.
01:14:12.940 And so it is with many
01:14:14.400 conspiracies that get alleged in
01:14:16.880 this context, right?
01:14:18.320 I mean, just like the influence of
01:14:19.600 Big Pharma.
01:14:21.080 The truth is, there is absolutely
01:14:23.820 no conspiratorial explanation for
01:14:28.340 what you and I are doing on this
01:14:29.940 podcast, right?
01:14:31.140 There's no connection, like, I've
01:14:32.860 got no connection to Big Pharma.
01:14:34.400 I will criticize Big Pharma in the
01:14:36.920 next podcast on another topic.
01:14:39.180 Right.
01:14:39.520 You know, with absolute freedom.
01:14:41.480 I've got no fear of YouTube
01:14:43.480 demonetizing me.
01:14:45.000 I mean, it's just, I'm completely
01:14:46.720 free and this is, I'm doing
01:14:48.120 exactly what I want and you're the
01:14:49.760 person I wanted to do it with and
01:14:51.160 this is what we're doing.
01:14:52.060 Right.
01:14:52.500 And as you know, Sam, I almost, my
01:14:55.220 career almost ended back in 2004,
01:14:58.960 2005 because I took on Merck about
01:15:00.800 Vioxx, okay?
01:15:01.640 Right.
01:15:02.180 Yeah.
01:15:02.860 You know, I am the least person in
01:15:04.720 the world that's pro-pharma, okay?
01:15:06.440 And I've taken big risks about
01:15:08.460 taking them on and I still am during
01:15:10.480 the pandemic.
01:15:11.360 So, no, we're trying to play this
01:15:13.420 thing straight.
01:15:14.200 We're trying to, you know, go with
01:15:16.040 what is the body of evidence that
01:15:18.940 is extraordinary.
01:15:21.480 We are in a momentous time in life
01:15:23.920 science where we learned how to,
01:15:25.560 you know, develop vaccines in, at
01:15:29.260 scale, in a time velocity that no
01:15:33.480 one could ever have imagined.
01:15:35.920 And to basically end the pandemic,
01:15:38.320 we could have, had we been able to
01:15:40.040 get vaccines widely distributed
01:15:41.760 throughout the world, potent
01:15:43.800 vaccines throughout the world early
01:15:45.440 on, the pandemic would essentially
01:15:47.660 be over now, okay?
01:15:49.120 We wouldn't have a Delta variant.
01:15:50.800 We wouldn't even have had beta and
01:15:52.160 gamma, right?
01:15:53.260 We probably would have just been
01:15:54.500 able to arrest it largely and
01:15:56.180 contain it at the alpha stage.
01:15:58.760 The problem is, though, we aren't
01:16:01.020 able to make the vaccines at, for
01:16:03.960 seven plus billion people, right?
01:16:07.180 Not fast enough.
01:16:08.880 But the other problem is in the
01:16:10.560 United States, which is far worse
01:16:13.180 than any other place that I know of
01:16:14.860 in the world, we have a very
01:16:16.960 significant proportion of these
01:16:20.340 anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists,
01:16:23.420 anti-science.
01:16:24.380 I mean, this started, of course,
01:16:25.320 before the pandemic, but it's been,
01:16:27.240 you know, gone much higher levels.
01:16:29.460 So we are not reaping the advantages
01:16:31.840 and the protection here that we
01:16:33.580 could.
01:16:34.320 And, you know, I have to say, I was
01:16:35.780 really looking forward to the summer,
01:16:37.840 this time of year, because I thought,
01:16:40.260 you know what, we could get right back
01:16:41.880 to pre-COVID life.
01:16:42.880 I could stop having to put my
01:16:44.880 attention on COVID and get it back to
01:16:46.920 the things that I much more enjoy.
01:16:49.020 And basically, it's been screwed up
01:16:51.680 because of Delta.
01:16:53.020 It's now going to last a lot longer.
01:16:55.440 We'll get through Delta.
01:16:56.620 It'll take a couple of months.
01:16:57.960 We'll get over this wave.
01:16:59.420 But the toll it will take on the
01:17:02.040 deaths, on the hospitalizations, and
01:17:04.440 particularly the large number of cases
01:17:06.100 we're going to see with long COVID,
01:17:08.720 that was unnecessary had we not had so
01:17:11.400 much resistance and hesitancy and
01:17:13.720 anti-vaxxing for the people who will
01:17:16.020 be part of the protection instead of
01:17:18.640 part of the liability and
01:17:20.360 vulnerability group.
01:17:21.500 Right, right.
01:17:22.240 Okay, so let's conclude on some
01:17:25.580 recommendations or confessions of
01:17:28.100 uncertainty about what we should do
01:17:30.120 going forward.
01:17:31.580 Before we talk about vaccine mandates
01:17:34.380 and related matters, what's taking so
01:17:37.520 long with the full FDA authorization
01:17:40.140 of the vaccines?
01:17:41.640 Why is that not already accomplished?
01:17:43.540 Yeah, well, I've been pushing hard on
01:17:46.660 that, and as you saw, I had a New York
01:17:48.500 Times op-ed a few weeks ago, and prior
01:17:51.960 to that, trying to get Dr. Woodcock, who's
01:17:54.700 the acting commissioner, to come out and
01:17:56.940 talk to us, tell us what is going on.
01:17:59.680 So I know the former FDA commissioners
01:18:03.160 well, and some of them, a few of them I've
01:18:05.960 spoken to at some length about this.
01:18:08.000 And as you know, I've been on several FDA
01:18:11.220 advisor committees over the years.
01:18:12.660 So I know the workings, and I understand
01:18:14.660 what's happened here, is that the usual
01:18:17.580 so-called biologic licensing application,
01:18:20.500 that's the full approval, that is 100,000
01:18:23.340 plus pages of documents.
01:18:25.300 It requires plant inspections.
01:18:27.620 It's not just the clinical trials.
01:18:29.420 It's not just, does the vaccine work,
01:18:32.360 and is it safe?
01:18:33.580 It's more than that.
01:18:34.860 But in this case, because of this pandemic
01:18:37.920 crisis, back in December, when the MRNA
01:18:42.440 vaccines were given their emergency
01:18:44.900 authorization, the company started submitting,
01:18:48.420 you know, packet by packet to get FDA review.
01:18:51.700 And so we've had seven months since that time
01:18:55.360 for the FDA to have completed their review.
01:18:58.340 And indeed, in speaking to FDA commissioners,
01:19:00.920 they believe it should have been done by now, okay?
01:19:04.220 In fact, it should have been done in June
01:19:05.640 at the latest.
01:19:07.120 And we now have heard just last week from Dr. Woodcock
01:19:10.560 that this could be, take till January.
01:19:13.740 Well, we can't wait till January.
01:19:16.040 This should have been done.
01:19:16.900 Now, there is no excuse,
01:19:18.740 except that this is not the number one priority.
01:19:22.220 And as you saw, there was an Alzheimer's drug
01:19:24.660 that was approved, highly irregular,
01:19:27.040 concurrent with this.
01:19:29.160 And so it's really unfortunate.
01:19:31.060 We do not have an FDA that's functioning
01:19:34.300 at the level it needs to in the midst of this pandemic,
01:19:39.240 especially as the U.S. is confronting
01:19:41.120 this very formidable version of the virus.
01:19:44.940 Yeah.
01:19:45.760 And in defense of the people who are worried
01:19:48.240 about the quality of our information,
01:19:51.820 the truth is we need institutions we can rely on.
01:19:55.600 And it's pretty clear we don't quite have them.
01:19:58.480 I mean, the FDA, the WHO, the CDC,
01:20:02.780 all of them have at various moments
01:20:05.040 covered themselves in embarrassment
01:20:08.020 in the last 18 months.
01:20:10.620 So, you know, that's, again,
01:20:12.440 there's a rational way to understand that.
01:20:15.000 And then there's the paranoid way
01:20:17.340 to exaggerate the nature of that problem.
01:20:20.380 But it's, yeah, I mean, we do need a rebooting
01:20:23.000 of our institutions here.
01:20:24.740 There's no question.
01:20:26.300 What do you think we should do
01:20:27.840 around requiring vaccination
01:20:32.500 in the public or private sector
01:20:34.780 in various contexts?
01:20:36.280 So, you know, mandates in schools
01:20:38.400 or hospitals or businesses
01:20:40.340 or for travel.
01:20:42.480 I mean, what are your thoughts about that?
01:20:44.800 Yeah, it's really tied in, Sam,
01:20:46.760 to the question you just asked
01:20:48.980 about the full approval.
01:20:50.020 Because general counsel of, you know,
01:20:53.140 our health system and if you talk
01:20:55.480 to private large companies, municipalities,
01:20:59.780 even though there have been some
01:21:01.200 that have said, like, for example,
01:21:03.240 at the University of California,
01:21:04.580 you have to be vaccinated
01:21:05.860 and you can't come on campus.
01:21:08.400 You can't be a student.
01:21:09.440 You can't be on the faculty.
01:21:10.840 But that's the rarity right now.
01:21:12.740 The day that we get full approval,
01:21:15.300 which should have happened by now,
01:21:16.580 all these things open up
01:21:18.400 and there will be a requirement
01:21:20.960 for vaccination
01:21:21.800 or there'll be accommodations
01:21:23.940 for those who don't want
01:21:25.100 to get vaccinated.
01:21:26.140 You have to wear a mask
01:21:27.280 at all times at work
01:21:28.620 and you have to get tested
01:21:30.720 on a frequent basis.
01:21:32.800 And I would submit to you
01:21:34.360 that the people that opt
01:21:36.260 for the non-vaccination
01:21:37.500 after a couple of weeks,
01:21:38.660 they're not going to want
01:21:39.300 to go through all that
01:21:40.240 and they'll go ahead
01:21:41.300 and get vaccinated.
01:21:42.040 So I actually think tens
01:21:43.380 of millions of Americans
01:21:44.540 soon after full approval
01:21:46.980 will be required
01:21:49.380 to be vaccinated
01:21:50.860 or will be given an option
01:21:52.320 that is unpalatable.
01:21:54.280 Yeah, I mean,
01:21:54.520 we should acknowledge
01:21:55.140 that there are some people
01:21:55.820 who actually can't get vaccinated.
01:21:58.180 I mean, there are people
01:21:58.660 in various stages
01:21:59.920 of cancer treatment, I believe,
01:22:01.840 and there are people
01:22:02.260 who just have weird immune systems
01:22:04.320 who go into anaphylaxis
01:22:06.000 over vaccines
01:22:07.660 that are as benign as possible.
01:22:10.000 And so, you know,
01:22:11.400 herd immunity
01:22:12.160 is the only way
01:22:12.660 to protect those people
01:22:13.680 because they can't
01:22:14.840 get vaccinated.
01:22:15.700 And under any regime
01:22:17.320 where vaccines are required,
01:22:19.460 there would still be
01:22:20.180 a medical exemption
01:22:21.140 for certain people, right?
01:22:23.580 Yes, yes.
01:22:24.540 But, you know,
01:22:25.080 those same people
01:22:25.900 want to have protection
01:22:27.040 with masks.
01:22:28.620 They want to have protection
01:22:29.800 from, like, for example,
01:22:31.540 if they did get infected
01:22:33.120 from testing,
01:22:34.760 they were found to,
01:22:35.880 they'd want to get
01:22:36.740 monoclonal antibodies
01:22:37.780 to the virus
01:22:38.920 as soon as possible
01:22:39.820 because they don't have
01:22:40.600 an intact immune system.
01:22:41.900 So, yes,
01:22:42.980 you're absolutely right.
01:22:43.820 Some people can't get vaccinated.
01:22:45.040 It's very rare,
01:22:46.540 but for them,
01:22:48.600 that same option
01:22:49.900 of masks
01:22:50.780 and frequent testing
01:22:51.900 is part of our defense.
01:22:54.480 You know,
01:22:55.040 if we didn't have
01:22:56.300 the anti-force,
01:22:58.800 we would have passports, right?
01:23:01.600 We would know
01:23:02.540 that you had an option.
01:23:03.840 Either you had
01:23:04.360 your vaccination
01:23:05.100 digital proof
01:23:06.720 or you had
01:23:08.720 a rapid antigen test
01:23:10.740 very soon
01:23:12.000 around that time,
01:23:13.780 you had proof
01:23:14.800 that you're good to go,
01:23:15.860 whether it's to a restaurant
01:23:16.900 or to work
01:23:18.100 or, you know,
01:23:18.800 on a plane,
01:23:20.920 whatever.
01:23:21.720 We are against
01:23:22.640 passports in this country,
01:23:24.100 just like we've had
01:23:25.000 the anti-force
01:23:25.860 against masks
01:23:26.800 and, you know,
01:23:28.440 and vaccines
01:23:29.380 and stay at home
01:23:30.880 when things were really rough.
01:23:32.060 So that's unfortunate,
01:23:33.480 but several countries,
01:23:34.640 as you know,
01:23:35.600 are adopting
01:23:36.460 the passport system
01:23:37.980 and it's working well.
01:23:40.000 I mean,
01:23:40.640 there are countries
01:23:42.180 like in Denmark,
01:23:43.280 they rely heavily
01:23:44.200 on rapid antigen tests
01:23:46.240 and while they're getting
01:23:48.660 their vaccinations
01:23:49.380 up to the highest level,
01:23:50.660 it's working extremely,
01:23:51.840 extremely well
01:23:52.420 for suppressing infections
01:23:53.880 and many other places as well.
01:23:55.740 So we aren't taking advantage
01:23:57.360 of the rapid testing side,
01:23:59.840 which we should.
01:24:00.600 I mean,
01:24:00.720 a lot of these companies
01:24:01.540 are U.S. companies,
01:24:04.080 but that's another misfire.
01:24:06.280 I wish we could do that.
01:24:07.680 It would help
01:24:08.220 the situation we're in right now.
01:24:11.300 Well, Eric,
01:24:12.160 I mean,
01:24:12.340 to my ear,
01:24:12.980 I feel like we've covered it.
01:24:14.140 I'm sure not to the satisfaction
01:24:16.020 of the people
01:24:17.160 who are unpersuadable,
01:24:19.480 but is there anything else
01:24:21.120 left to be said
01:24:22.280 in your view
01:24:23.120 on this topic?
01:24:24.720 Well, you know,
01:24:25.220 I just think
01:24:25.820 when we go forward
01:24:27.520 years from now,
01:24:28.920 well after this pandemic
01:24:30.180 is over,
01:24:30.840 and hopefully
01:24:32.080 we'll be at a time
01:24:33.340 when we can really
01:24:34.560 be reflective.
01:24:35.780 We'll think about
01:24:37.180 this momentous
01:24:39.080 science advance,
01:24:41.220 science and medical advance
01:24:42.500 of vaccines
01:24:43.700 and the extraordinary
01:24:45.640 proof,
01:24:46.600 track record
01:24:47.120 of potent efficacy,
01:24:48.800 safety.
01:24:49.140 and we'll wonder
01:24:50.840 what happened.
01:24:52.740 Why did the U.S.,
01:24:54.020 who failed as a country
01:24:55.980 in the early part
01:24:57.740 of a pandemic
01:24:58.320 with, as you said,
01:25:00.060 600,000
01:25:00.940 and more deaths still,
01:25:03.160 why did they not
01:25:04.340 become
01:25:05.060 the world model
01:25:06.380 for blocking
01:25:08.380 the virus's harm?
01:25:11.480 And I think
01:25:12.780 a lot of things
01:25:13.380 we discussed
01:25:13.920 today, Sam,
01:25:15.120 will be written
01:25:17.340 about for years
01:25:18.280 to come
01:25:18.760 because we had
01:25:19.680 the potential
01:25:20.260 to just show
01:25:21.380 the world
01:25:21.840 that we could
01:25:22.820 build the delta
01:25:23.560 wall of immunity,
01:25:25.040 whether it be
01:25:26.040 from the vaccines
01:25:26.980 or, as you mentioned,
01:25:28.500 the 100 million
01:25:29.180 plus people
01:25:29.840 who had prior COVID
01:25:31.100 had had some
01:25:31.800 natural immunity.
01:25:33.420 How did we
01:25:34.380 botch it up?
01:25:36.140 How did we become
01:25:37.300 as vulnerable
01:25:38.080 as we are right now
01:25:39.440 and in the weeks
01:25:40.120 to come?
01:25:41.100 It's really unfortunate.
01:25:42.460 And I, maybe,
01:25:44.220 maybe, after all this,
01:25:46.740 we'll have a movement
01:25:49.760 back to being
01:25:51.280 data-driven,
01:25:52.480 evidence-based,
01:25:53.580 and not allow
01:25:54.680 for the misinformation
01:25:55.960 to propagate,
01:25:57.440 which, something
01:25:58.180 that should be emphasized,
01:25:59.620 we know that
01:26:00.820 the misinformation
01:26:02.720 gets spread
01:26:04.140 far better
01:26:04.860 than the truth,
01:26:05.880 right?
01:26:06.280 That's been documented.
01:26:07.820 So maybe,
01:26:08.580 maybe out of all this,
01:26:10.200 it won't happen now,
01:26:11.320 but in the years ahead,
01:26:12.760 we can get back
01:26:13.540 to where we were,
01:26:15.100 where we were
01:26:15.840 in the old days
01:26:16.720 when the polio vaccine
01:26:18.220 was being rolled out
01:26:19.440 and all the other ones
01:26:20.540 since then.
01:26:21.420 Yeah.
01:26:22.800 As always, Eric,
01:26:23.800 thank you for
01:26:24.480 your wise counsel
01:26:25.900 and your time.
01:26:26.800 I look forward
01:26:27.480 to the next occasion
01:26:28.580 where we'll talk
01:26:29.240 about a happier topic.
01:26:30.340 We'll talk about
01:26:31.240 human health somehow
01:26:32.360 rather than
01:26:33.840 our needless
01:26:35.260 misadventures
01:26:35.960 and own goals
01:26:37.020 around disease.
01:26:38.580 But until then,
01:26:40.060 thank you so much.
01:26:41.260 Thank you, Sam.
01:26:42.060 Real, real pleasure.
01:26:43.040 I look forward
01:26:43.480 to the next chance
01:26:44.340 that we get to talk.
01:26:45.520 Thank you.
01:26:46.520 Thank you.
01:26:47.520 Thank you.
01:26:47.600 Thank you.
01:26:47.620 Thank you.
01:26:47.640 Thank you.
01:26:47.660 Thank you.