Making Sense - Sam Harris - #266 — The Limits of Pleasure

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.860 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.920 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this,

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00:00:47.400 No housekeeping today,

00:00:49.520 apart from a note to say that

00:00:51.260 Ricky Gervais and I are working on the third season

00:00:53.900 of Absolutely Mental.

00:00:55.900 So if you want to catch up with the first two,

00:00:59.060 you can do that over at AbsolutelyMental.com.

00:01:03.840 And that's been a lot of fun.

00:01:06.960 Okay.

00:01:08.560 Today I'm speaking with Paul Bloom.

00:01:11.700 Paul, I think, holds the record for most appearances

00:01:15.360 on this podcast.

00:01:17.040 I have lost count, but it's been many times.

00:01:20.440 He is now a professor of psychology

00:01:22.380 at the University of Toronto,

00:01:23.580 and remains an emeritus professor of psychology at Yale.

00:01:29.360 His research focuses on the psychology of morality,

00:01:33.360 identity, and pleasure.

00:01:36.100 He has received many awards and honors,

00:01:39.040 including the million-dollar Klaus J. Jacobs Research Prize.

00:01:42.720 He's written for Nature and Science

00:01:45.920 and the New York Times,

00:01:47.440 The New Yorker, The Atlantic.

00:01:49.740 And he's the author or editor of eight books,

00:01:52.580 most recently,

00:01:54.060 The Sweet Spot,

00:01:55.360 The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning.

00:01:59.020 And it's a very fun book,

00:02:00.380 which we discuss in part.

00:02:02.560 We talk about the role that pain and suffering play

00:02:05.980 in living a good life.

00:02:07.300 We discuss the connection between chosen suffering and meaning.

00:02:13.060 The research of Danny Kahneman on well-being.

00:02:17.000 We talk about the possibility of integrating

00:02:19.520 the experiencing and remembering selves

00:02:21.680 that Kahneman differentiated.

00:02:24.820 We discuss moral motivations,

00:02:27.660 the effect of parenthood on happiness,

00:02:30.700 unchosen suffering,

00:02:32.600 the asymmetry between loss and gain,

00:02:34.700 Robert Nozick's experience machine thought experiment,

00:02:38.900 the value of pleasure,

00:02:41.160 the effect of altruism,

00:02:43.040 valuing the future more than the past,

00:02:45.860 the power of contrast,

00:02:47.960 false ideals of happiness,

00:02:50.320 polyamory,

00:02:51.620 money and status,

00:02:53.380 the role of the imagination,

00:02:55.880 boredom,

00:02:56.960 the power of apology,

00:02:58.880 and other topics.

00:03:00.820 Anyway, as many of you know,

00:03:02.240 trying to sort out what it means to live a good life

00:03:04.980 is one of my core interests.

00:03:08.020 And given the nature of the topic,

00:03:09.960 it's probably one of yours.

00:03:12.340 And now I bring you

00:03:13.380 Paul Bloom.

00:03:22.460 I am here with Paul Bloom.

00:03:24.440 Paul, thanks for joining me again.

00:03:26.360 Hey, thanks for having me back, Sam.

00:03:27.580 So you have this habit of writing

00:03:29.900 very interesting books

00:03:31.340 on topics that

00:03:33.680 are sort of hiding in plain sight.

00:03:37.100 The last book,

00:03:38.180 which I'm sure we discussed,

00:03:39.840 I'm not sure it was on our last podcast,

00:03:41.300 because we did several

00:03:42.380 in that period,

00:03:43.840 but your last book,

00:03:45.500 Against Empathy,

00:03:47.300 sort of brought the

00:03:48.080 dark side of empathy,

00:03:50.760 at least empathy as emotional contagion,

00:03:52.920 into focus.

00:03:53.580 And while that's something that

00:03:56.140 it seems like many people

00:03:57.860 should have noticed

00:03:58.640 before you wrote a book about it,

00:04:00.760 you're deciding to

00:04:01.620 focus at book length on it

00:04:04.040 really brought it

00:04:05.460 into the conversation.

00:04:07.180 And I would count your

00:04:08.360 current book

00:04:09.360 to have a similar property here.

00:04:11.720 There's sort of an open secret

00:04:13.040 component to these topics,

00:04:14.500 because it's not like they're

00:04:16.220 totally unobserved.

00:04:17.460 I think many people know

00:04:18.900 much of what you're focusing on here,

00:04:21.320 but they don't know they know it,

00:04:22.640 and they certainly don't,

00:04:23.980 they've never had a chance

00:04:25.120 to see it in the context

00:04:26.280 of current research on the mind.

00:04:29.040 So there's really a pleasure in this.

00:04:31.160 The new book is

00:04:31.980 The Sweet Spot,

00:04:33.360 The Pleasures of Suffering

00:04:34.700 and the Search for Meaning.

00:04:36.720 And I'll let you

00:04:38.060 summarize your thesis there

00:04:39.660 before we jump into it.

00:04:40.900 What is The Sweet Spot?

00:04:42.580 First, thank you.

00:04:43.580 Thanks for having me on.

00:04:44.500 And we did talk about

00:04:45.760 Against Empathy.

00:04:47.040 In some way,

00:04:47.800 you could put these books

00:04:48.660 in sort of a pair

00:04:50.540 of anomalous claims

00:04:53.040 Against Empathy

00:04:54.220 in favor of suffering.

00:04:55.880 This is kind of

00:04:57.140 a different sort of book.

00:04:58.480 Against Empathy

00:04:59.080 was kind of pugnacious,

00:05:01.200 saying that, you know,

00:05:02.600 the way we've been doing it

00:05:03.860 is wrong.

00:05:04.400 We should do morality differently.

00:05:06.520 This is more of an exploration

00:05:08.120 of people's curious appetites

00:05:11.360 and just, you know,

00:05:12.900 a careful look

00:05:14.260 at what we like.

00:05:16.340 The case,

00:05:17.360 when I started writing this book,

00:05:19.060 I was just preoccupied

00:05:20.220 of certain puzzles,

00:05:21.240 which is,

00:05:22.180 why do people get pleasure

00:05:23.220 from certain forms

00:05:24.080 of controlled suffering?

00:05:25.420 Why do we take hot baths,

00:05:27.100 go to saunas,

00:05:28.320 you know,

00:05:28.780 do martial arts,

00:05:30.300 run marathons,

00:05:31.640 go to scary movies,

00:05:32.880 go to, you know,

00:05:33.360 listen to sad songs?

00:05:34.820 And I was really interested

00:05:36.200 in the role of suffering

00:05:37.040 for pleasure.

00:05:38.000 And I was going to call the book

00:05:39.280 The Pleasure of Suffering,

00:05:40.520 but as I sort of got into it

00:05:42.020 more and more,

00:05:43.200 I realized that some suffering

00:05:44.900 is actually not in the service

00:05:46.560 of pleasure,

00:05:47.100 but in the service

00:05:47.720 of meaning and purpose.

00:05:49.740 And so I ended up,

00:05:51.420 you know,

00:05:52.000 it's basically sort of

00:05:52.780 two books in one.

00:05:53.560 The first part deals

00:05:54.220 with pleasure.

00:05:55.220 The second part deals

00:05:56.120 with suffering

00:05:57.400 as part of a good life.

00:05:59.060 And in the course

00:06:00.360 of writing this,

00:06:01.280 you know,

00:06:01.400 which wasn't a lot,

00:06:02.100 it was a fun book to write,

00:06:03.120 but in the course

00:06:03.460 of writing this,

00:06:04.520 I sort of settled

00:06:05.240 on a claim,

00:06:06.500 which is at the core

00:06:07.200 of the book,

00:06:08.280 which you call

00:06:08.740 motivational pluralism,

00:06:10.180 which is that we're after,

00:06:11.820 we're after many things.

00:06:12.800 We do want pleasure.

00:06:14.980 You know,

00:06:15.240 it's a hot day,

00:06:15.920 we like a cool drink,

00:06:17.280 but we also want meaning

00:06:19.340 and purpose,

00:06:20.000 we want morality,

00:06:20.920 sometimes we want truth,

00:06:22.040 sometimes we want beauty.

00:06:23.320 And my book tries

00:06:23.960 to put this together

00:06:24.780 through the lens

00:06:25.440 of chosen suffering.

00:06:27.160 Yeah,

00:06:27.340 this is so interesting

00:06:28.680 because it's one

00:06:29.300 of those topics

00:06:30.080 that the fact

00:06:33.060 that there's so much

00:06:34.540 diversity of opinion

00:06:35.860 on what constitutes

00:06:37.920 a good life

00:06:38.660 is pretty surprising

00:06:41.840 given that the answer

00:06:43.240 to this question

00:06:43.840 is probably

00:06:44.420 the most important answer

00:06:45.940 we can ever find,

00:06:47.100 right?

00:06:47.320 I mean,

00:06:47.520 there's nothing more tragic

00:06:48.800 than a life misappropriated

00:06:52.240 and it's a little bit like,

00:06:55.160 perhaps even more surprising

00:06:56.180 because it's a much simpler question,

00:06:57.860 the fact that there's

00:06:58.600 diversity of opinion

00:06:59.480 or basic confusion

00:07:01.160 about what constitutes

00:07:02.120 a good diet

00:07:03.000 is also surprising.

00:07:05.220 So we've been on this earth

00:07:06.880 for tens of thousands,

00:07:09.500 maybe hundreds of thousands

00:07:10.660 of years in our current form.

00:07:13.260 We've certainly had

00:07:14.200 a few centuries

00:07:15.620 to look at it carefully

00:07:16.900 and we're still confused

00:07:18.200 about what we should be

00:07:18.960 putting in our mouths

00:07:19.800 on a daily basis.

00:07:21.420 And we're even more uncertain

00:07:24.860 about the recipe

00:07:26.840 for a truly good life.

00:07:30.300 So there's a lot

00:07:31.060 to consider here.

00:07:31.700 I mean,

00:07:31.800 some of the problems

00:07:32.400 are definitional

00:07:33.460 and so maybe we should

00:07:34.220 jump into that part first

00:07:36.500 or just the semantics of it

00:07:37.820 because we have words

00:07:38.620 like pleasure

00:07:40.240 and satisfaction

00:07:42.520 and meaning

00:07:43.720 and happiness,

00:07:47.240 well-being,

00:07:48.460 flourishing,

00:07:49.560 eudaimonia,

00:07:51.060 and obviously

00:07:51.900 these are overlapping concepts.

00:07:54.280 start us off

00:07:56.780 with some clarification

00:07:58.260 on terminology.

00:08:00.300 Yeah,

00:08:00.600 and for each of these words

00:08:02.140 there's a lot of debate

00:08:02.940 about it.

00:08:03.320 People use the words

00:08:04.580 in different ways.

00:08:06.160 Happiness notoriously

00:08:07.280 can mean very different things.

00:08:09.380 Meaning is notoriously

00:08:10.520 very vague

00:08:11.180 and I try to make it less vague

00:08:12.460 when I talk about it.

00:08:13.380 But let's start with pleasure.

00:08:15.280 So there's an intuitive sense.

00:08:17.280 Pleasure is what makes us go,

00:08:18.840 ah.

00:08:19.120 Pleasure is

00:08:19.880 my way of saying

00:08:22.280 a sort of short-term experience

00:08:23.920 that we like,

00:08:25.180 that we say

00:08:25.700 bring us more of it.

00:08:27.440 And you contrast this

00:08:28.900 with suffering

00:08:29.780 or pain.

00:08:31.380 You know,

00:08:31.620 pain is the physical part of it

00:08:33.340 but also,

00:08:33.880 you know,

00:08:34.380 shame,

00:08:35.020 humiliation,

00:08:36.460 boredom,

00:08:37.060 anxiety,

00:08:38.260 disappointment.

00:08:39.660 And you would think

00:08:40.780 they're total opposites.

00:08:42.240 You would think,

00:08:42.780 you know,

00:08:43.120 and in fact you would think

00:08:44.100 that you want the pleasure

00:08:45.500 and you want to avoid the suffering.

00:08:47.420 But it's a very interesting fact

00:08:49.620 about people

00:08:50.220 that experiences

00:08:52.200 that are normally painful,

00:08:54.400 that normally could bring you

00:08:55.540 suffering and difficulty

00:08:56.580 in all sorts of ways

00:08:58.360 are what we sometimes want.

00:09:00.900 And sometimes we want them

00:09:02.260 because they're in the service

00:09:03.180 of pleasure,

00:09:03.960 like,

00:09:04.200 you know,

00:09:04.460 BDSM,

00:09:05.140 I talk a bit about that,

00:09:06.300 or rigorous exercise,

00:09:08.440 which is difficult.

00:09:09.500 In fact,

00:09:10.280 it's supposed to be difficult.

00:09:11.500 It was easy,

00:09:12.500 what would be the point?

00:09:14.040 As well as sort of

00:09:15.080 longer life projects

00:09:16.460 that we take on

00:09:17.280 and we say this is,

00:09:18.180 you know,

00:09:18.320 we know this is going to be hard.

00:09:20.740 But if it wasn't hard,

00:09:22.480 it wouldn't matter.

00:09:24.540 And this brings us

00:09:25.360 to the definition of meaning,

00:09:27.060 which is,

00:09:27.840 you know,

00:09:27.960 and I'm not taking this

00:09:28.700 from a philosophical point of view,

00:09:30.000 just trying to do this a priori.

00:09:31.520 If you ask people,

00:09:32.520 what's the meaningful experience?

00:09:34.420 You ask people,

00:09:35.160 how meaningful is your life?

00:09:37.520 They answer coherently.

00:09:38.920 It's a coherent question.

00:09:40.560 And so we can look to see

00:09:41.480 what they're talking about.

00:09:43.060 And they seem to be talking

00:09:45.240 about experience,

00:09:47.280 projects that are difficult,

00:09:48.860 that take a lot of time,

00:09:50.220 and involve struggle

00:09:51.300 and doubt

00:09:51.920 and uncertainty.

00:09:54.400 They involve suffering

00:09:55.880 of different sorts.

00:09:57.280 And if it didn't involve suffering,

00:09:59.040 it wouldn't be meaningful.

00:10:00.480 Yeah.

00:10:01.240 One of the main problems here

00:10:03.780 is that people are

00:10:06.040 unreliable narrators

00:10:08.420 to their own adventure here.

00:10:10.680 To some degree,

00:10:11.960 we're always in the presence

00:10:13.280 of an unreliable narrator,

00:10:15.600 or at least a potentially

00:10:17.040 unreliable narrator,

00:10:18.740 in several respects.

00:10:20.660 There's the fact that

00:10:21.660 most people,

00:10:23.140 really maybe all of us,

00:10:24.720 don't know what we're missing,

00:10:26.960 right?

00:10:27.200 I mean,

00:10:27.440 there's certain experiences

00:10:28.700 we have that we like,

00:10:30.740 that we keep gravitating toward,

00:10:32.440 and invariably there are

00:10:34.440 opportunity costs

00:10:35.440 associated with each of those.

00:10:37.780 And we don't know

00:10:38.880 how much better life would be

00:10:41.140 if we had slightly

00:10:43.140 different priorities,

00:10:44.140 or even vastly

00:10:45.400 different priorities.

00:10:46.980 So even in satisfaction

00:10:48.860 of our desires,

00:10:51.280 even what we imagine

00:10:52.900 our noblest desires,

00:10:55.540 even on those days or weeks

00:10:57.620 where we're living exactly

00:10:59.980 as we feel we should,

00:11:02.340 again, we just don't know

00:11:04.060 how much greener the grass is

00:11:06.120 on the other side of the fence

00:11:07.460 that we can't see.

00:11:09.140 And then you add to that

00:11:10.140 all of the failures of memory

00:11:13.580 and the problems in integrating memory

00:11:17.840 with an evaluation

00:11:19.740 of just how happiness

00:11:22.320 or well-being

00:11:23.740 or the absence of suffering

00:11:25.720 is accruing.

00:11:27.060 And this goes to the famous issue

00:11:29.160 that Danny Kahneman ran into

00:11:31.540 in his research

00:11:33.160 on the experiencing

00:11:34.780 versus the remembering self.

00:11:37.380 Maybe you want to summarize that

00:11:38.660 and then we can get into it

00:11:39.600 because I think you and I

00:11:40.320 have a different,

00:11:41.380 I don't think you and I

00:11:42.100 agree with Danny

00:11:42.980 in his view of it,

00:11:45.380 but he perhaps remind us

00:11:47.720 what he thought

00:11:48.980 he figured out there.

00:11:50.900 Yeah, I mean,

00:11:51.220 we could talk a lot

00:11:52.080 about the general idea.

00:11:53.080 We could be wrong.

00:11:54.340 We could say something's

00:11:56.120 meaningful and valuable

00:11:57.120 and worthwhile

00:11:57.720 and just be deluding ourselves.

00:11:59.920 And just before we get to Danny,

00:12:01.160 I just want to point out

00:12:02.460 that my argument

00:12:03.880 is about chosen suffering.

00:12:05.960 Unchosen suffering

00:12:06.760 is a very different thing.

00:12:09.760 This is fresh in my mind

00:12:11.140 because I wrote,

00:12:13.340 I had an excerpt in my book

00:12:14.580 in the Wall Street Journal

00:12:15.420 and I got an email

00:12:16.320 from somebody

00:12:17.400 who was furious at me.

00:12:19.120 She said,

00:12:19.360 I live in chronic pain.

00:12:21.360 Who the hell are you

00:12:22.360 to tell me this is valuable

00:12:23.960 as part of a good life?

00:12:25.200 You know,

00:12:25.400 screw you.

00:12:25.980 I'm very angry.

00:12:27.100 And I pointed out

00:12:28.020 in a response,

00:12:28.840 look,

00:12:29.520 I'm very careful.

00:12:30.620 I'm not talking

00:12:31.340 about unchosen suffering,

00:12:33.360 chronic pain,

00:12:34.240 your child dies,

00:12:35.980 you have a horrible illness,

00:12:37.380 your house burns down,

00:12:38.600 you get assaulted.

00:12:40.040 Those are suffering,

00:12:41.000 that's suffering

00:12:41.600 of quite a different sort.

00:12:43.480 But at the same time,

00:12:44.580 and building on

00:12:45.440 what you're saying,

00:12:46.760 we tell stories about that.

00:12:48.440 We are very good storytellers

00:12:50.120 and it's a very natural narrative

00:12:51.800 to say,

00:12:52.460 this happened for a reason.

00:12:54.400 This made me a better person.

00:12:56.320 And I'm actually

00:12:57.460 kind of skeptical

00:12:58.340 about those stories.

00:12:59.440 There's a whole literature

00:13:00.960 in post-traumatic growth

00:13:02.280 which finds

00:13:04.040 that people often say

00:13:05.100 after a horrible thing,

00:13:06.660 I'm better,

00:13:07.440 I'm stronger,

00:13:08.500 I'm more resilient,

00:13:09.380 I'm kinder.

00:13:10.660 But it turns out

00:13:11.360 when you look closely,

00:13:13.100 there's not much evidence

00:13:14.000 for a real change.

00:13:14.940 It's more of a story

00:13:15.700 we tell ourselves.

00:13:17.480 That's interesting.

00:13:18.700 Let's get to that

00:13:19.520 because I think

00:13:21.340 that's important

00:13:21.860 to explore.

00:13:23.620 But let's table

00:13:24.580 the unsought suffering

00:13:26.560 until we deal

00:13:28.320 with the other

00:13:29.000 requisites of happiness here.

00:13:31.340 So yeah,

00:13:31.660 give me Kahneman

00:13:32.720 on the experiencing

00:13:34.280 and remembering selves.

00:13:36.140 Kahneman's the coolest.

00:13:37.420 So this is Danny Kahneman,

00:13:38.860 our Nobel laureate

00:13:40.740 in psychology

00:13:41.560 and well-deserved.

00:13:43.580 Technically,

00:13:44.240 a psychologist,

00:13:45.480 but a Nobel laureate

00:13:46.160 in economics

00:13:46.800 which is the only thing

00:13:47.860 he could,

00:13:48.480 I guess,

00:13:48.860 qualify for.

00:13:50.160 And somebody

00:13:51.240 will jump in

00:13:51.880 and say economics

00:13:52.580 isn't a real Nobel Prize.

00:13:54.000 And I'm just going to

00:13:54.780 steer clear of that

00:13:55.840 ugly debate.

00:13:57.120 I'll give it to them

00:13:58.100 for the Peace Prize.

00:13:59.380 That has been so devalued

00:14:00.740 that it's an embarrassment now.

00:14:02.780 We'll keep chemistry,

00:14:04.120 physics,

00:14:04.500 and on some days,

00:14:05.180 literature.

00:14:06.240 So Kahneman's done

00:14:07.000 some lovely studies

00:14:07.940 on our perception

00:14:08.860 of our memories

00:14:10.320 of experiences.

00:14:12.100 And he points out

00:14:13.560 there's a difference

00:14:14.240 between what you get

00:14:15.520 when you weigh

00:14:16.260 the actual pleasure

00:14:18.180 and pain you feel.

00:14:19.640 Versus how you recall it.

00:14:21.480 So one of his findings

00:14:22.600 is what he calls

00:14:23.380 duration neglect.

00:14:25.220 You have a miserable

00:14:26.260 four-hour flight

00:14:27.240 where you have nothing to do

00:14:28.020 and you're going crazy

00:14:28.720 with boredom.

00:14:29.920 Versus an eight-hour flight

00:14:31.340 which is just as boring

00:14:32.340 and just as unpleasant.

00:14:33.820 You would think

00:14:34.260 the second one

00:14:34.960 is twice as bad

00:14:36.560 and it is

00:14:38.260 twice as bad

00:14:38.880 unpleasantness,

00:14:39.680 but you remembered

00:14:40.260 them about the same.

00:14:41.800 You know,

00:14:42.100 a wonderful

00:14:42.660 two-week vacation

00:14:43.680 and a wonderful

00:14:44.160 one-week vacation.

00:14:45.120 You get home,

00:14:45.860 it doesn't matter

00:14:46.580 when it was twice as long.

00:14:47.660 You remember it

00:14:48.280 the same.

00:14:49.640 But now you get

00:14:50.360 to the really weird part

00:14:51.440 which is

00:14:52.460 when assessing

00:14:53.220 the quality

00:14:55.120 of experiences

00:14:56.160 we tend to judge

00:14:58.000 the peaks

00:14:58.560 and the endings.

00:14:59.420 And so Kahneman

00:15:00.900 did some really

00:15:01.700 amazing studies.

00:15:03.660 He did that both

00:15:04.180 in a lab

00:15:04.740 and also with people

00:15:05.940 experiencing colonoscopies.

00:15:07.760 This has been a while ago

00:15:08.660 and colonoscopies

00:15:09.420 were actually quite painful.

00:15:11.140 So he gives people

00:15:12.660 a painful experience

00:15:13.600 that ends

00:15:14.500 on a very painful part

00:15:16.000 and it stops

00:15:16.640 and said,

00:15:17.000 you're done.

00:15:18.160 Then he gives another group

00:15:19.200 exactly the same experience

00:15:20.820 ending on

00:15:21.600 exactly the same

00:15:22.940 high degree of pain

00:15:23.660 and then he adds

00:15:24.960 some mild pain.

00:15:26.780 So the second one

00:15:27.460 plainly has more pain.

00:15:28.740 It's the same pain

00:15:29.360 as the first one

00:15:29.940 plus some more.

00:15:31.700 Then he asks people,

00:15:32.740 what do you prefer?

00:15:34.340 And people say,

00:15:34.800 oh,

00:15:35.380 the second one

00:15:36.040 was much better

00:15:36.780 because it ended

00:15:39.120 on a more pleasant note

00:15:41.080 or less painful note.

00:15:43.940 It leads to the bizarre fact

00:15:46.100 that if you're having

00:15:47.460 a painful dental operation

00:15:48.980 and then it just ends

00:15:50.120 and the dentist says,

00:15:51.620 fine, you're done.

00:15:52.260 You could go home.

00:15:52.920 You say,

00:15:53.580 could you give me

00:15:54.160 a little bit of mild pain

00:15:55.300 so I remember this better?

00:15:57.160 It's just perverse.

00:15:59.540 And overall,

00:16:00.800 Kahneman says,

00:16:02.020 your judgments

00:16:02.680 of your day-to-day

00:16:03.840 pleasure and pain,

00:16:04.860 you could do this

00:16:05.420 in a different way

00:16:06.100 by giving people

00:16:06.860 an iPhone app

00:16:08.180 that beeps

00:16:08.600 at random times

00:16:09.460 and people say

00:16:09.900 how happy they are,

00:16:11.500 how sad they are,

00:16:12.400 will differ

00:16:13.700 from your remembered judgments

00:16:15.600 of what kind of life

00:16:16.680 you live.

00:16:18.220 And then there's

00:16:18.800 a big debate

00:16:19.500 in psychology

00:16:20.680 and philosophy too,

00:16:22.000 which is,

00:16:22.640 what do you want

00:16:23.000 to maximize?

00:16:24.380 Do you want to maximize

00:16:25.360 the sum total pleasure

00:16:26.620 you have in your life?

00:16:28.180 Or do you want

00:16:28.980 to maximize how

00:16:30.040 when you look back

00:16:30.980 on your life,

00:16:31.640 you experience it?

00:16:33.040 Kahneman famously says,

00:16:34.940 remembered happiness

00:16:37.040 is what should count.

00:16:38.980 He says it's what people

00:16:40.220 really take seriously.

00:16:41.540 While other people,

00:16:42.880 like my friend

00:16:43.520 Dan Gilbert says,

00:16:44.680 it's experience that counts.

00:16:47.040 Yeah,

00:16:47.360 and so Danny famously

00:16:49.140 decided that

00:16:50.740 you really can't reconcile

00:16:52.680 these two different modes.

00:16:54.800 The person you're talking to

00:16:56.220 when you're asking someone

00:16:57.140 about their life

00:16:57.900 is always the

00:16:59.500 remembering self

00:17:01.460 who's making

00:17:01.940 a global judgment

00:17:02.940 about how good

00:17:04.020 the vacation was

00:17:04.980 or how good life is,

00:17:06.840 how satisfied,

00:17:08.020 how meaningful.

00:17:08.480 and then

00:17:09.940 when you compare that

00:17:11.260 to the experience

00:17:12.100 sampling mode

00:17:13.280 of the person

00:17:13.780 who just gives

00:17:14.720 a quick rating

00:17:15.420 of their level

00:17:16.280 of well-being

00:17:16.900 at random points

00:17:17.880 during the day

00:17:18.800 when you give them

00:17:20.000 an app to do that,

00:17:21.680 it's just,

00:17:22.200 they're two totally

00:17:23.100 different measures

00:17:23.900 and I think

00:17:25.160 the way Danny

00:17:26.000 phrased it at one point

00:17:27.040 with me

00:17:27.980 was that

00:17:28.460 what people really want,

00:17:30.360 I mean,

00:17:30.500 in the end,

00:17:31.080 the way people

00:17:32.260 go about their lives

00:17:34.680 so as to live

00:17:36.240 the most meaningful,

00:17:37.800 satisfying lives

00:17:38.600 is that

00:17:38.920 what they want

00:17:39.760 are good

00:17:41.100 future memories.

00:17:42.800 You want to live

00:17:43.480 in such a way

00:17:44.080 so that when we ask you

00:17:45.140 in the future

00:17:45.700 how happy were you

00:17:46.820 with the last

00:17:47.440 year,

00:17:49.040 decade,

00:17:49.740 life,

00:17:50.600 that person says

00:17:51.560 oh,

00:17:51.880 I wouldn't change a thing.

00:17:53.980 Right?

00:17:54.240 Even though that's just

00:17:54.960 one moment in time

00:17:56.080 and I've never bought

00:17:59.040 this analysis

00:17:59.780 and I'm not denying

00:18:01.420 his findings.

00:18:02.620 I think this seems

00:18:03.740 clearly true of us

00:18:05.780 empirically

00:18:06.300 that there's a

00:18:06.900 disjunction here

00:18:07.620 but I think

00:18:09.060 something close

00:18:10.180 to what

00:18:10.760 Dan Gilbert

00:18:12.220 imagined

00:18:13.620 should be possible

00:18:15.000 that you should be able

00:18:15.840 to just

00:18:16.640 sum the area

00:18:18.440 under the curve

00:18:19.320 recognizing that

00:18:20.980 the remembering self

00:18:23.380 is none other

00:18:25.360 than the experiencing self

00:18:26.620 in one of his

00:18:28.200 or her modes

00:18:28.920 or one of his

00:18:29.480 or her moments

00:18:30.080 and it just

00:18:31.140 it's different

00:18:32.340 in that it has

00:18:32.980 a different salience

00:18:34.340 and it is

00:18:35.720 what always

00:18:36.360 comes online

00:18:37.140 when you ask

00:18:38.320 a certain kind

00:18:39.120 of question

00:18:39.640 for a person

00:18:40.460 and the crucial

00:18:41.760 bit to integrate

00:18:42.580 is that the answer

00:18:44.420 that you're able

00:18:46.000 to give

00:18:46.540 to that question

00:18:47.420 whether

00:18:47.940 prompted by

00:18:49.080 someone like Kahneman

00:18:50.500 or just to yourself

00:18:51.640 when you wake up

00:18:53.000 at four in the morning

00:18:53.720 and you're thinking

00:18:54.240 about your life

00:18:55.000 that ability

00:18:56.180 to answer

00:18:56.820 that you're satisfied

00:18:58.440 or that you

00:18:59.520 wouldn't change

00:19:00.040 a thing

00:19:00.520 has

00:19:01.960 further effects

00:19:04.020 on the rest

00:19:04.900 of your experience

00:19:05.900 right

00:19:06.160 it's not truly

00:19:06.920 an isolated moment

00:19:07.880 it has

00:19:08.360 it matters

00:19:09.460 that whenever

00:19:09.940 you find yourself

00:19:10.880 in conversation

00:19:11.480 with someone

00:19:12.220 and they say

00:19:13.240 well so how's it going

00:19:14.080 how's your life

00:19:14.780 how's your family

00:19:15.480 that that conversation

00:19:17.540 feels a certain way

00:19:18.820 and it has a

00:19:19.720 it changes your

00:19:21.220 status

00:19:22.160 or perceived status

00:19:23.400 this sense of satisfaction

00:19:25.020 builds

00:19:25.740 or erodes

00:19:27.480 depending on

00:19:28.340 how those conversations

00:19:29.860 go

00:19:30.240 and so I just think

00:19:30.920 it's not

00:19:32.180 but it's happening

00:19:33.900 nowhere else

00:19:34.860 but in

00:19:35.480 the timeline

00:19:36.660 of your experience

00:19:37.600 it's not

00:19:37.900 you're not

00:19:38.140 you're not on

00:19:38.780 some other planet

00:19:39.520 for those moments

00:19:40.420 of conversation

00:19:41.300 so it's

00:19:42.260 anyway

00:19:42.560 I don't know

00:19:42.960 if you are

00:19:43.720 sympathetic with that

00:19:44.500 but it seems to me

00:19:45.780 that they can be married

00:19:46.660 I like the argument

00:19:49.160 I actually talk about

00:19:50.760 Dan's work

00:19:51.700 quite a lot

00:19:52.180 in my book

00:19:53.120 and I end the book

00:19:54.380 later on

00:19:54.880 with a discussion

00:19:56.280 of exactly that scenario

00:19:57.600 he offers the example

00:19:59.680 of a swimming pool

00:20:00.540 and you spend

00:20:02.260 you know

00:20:02.480 95% of your time

00:20:04.000 just lying in the swimming pool

00:20:05.280 you know

00:20:05.680 drinking pina coladas

00:20:07.160 and feeling great

00:20:08.120 and then

00:20:09.020 5% of the time

00:20:10.140 you look back

00:20:10.640 and say

00:20:10.860 my life is a waste

00:20:11.780 I've just been wasting

00:20:12.720 I think this has no value

00:20:14.320 and the way

00:20:15.680 he would put it is

00:20:17.000 well that's 95% happy

00:20:19.320 and 5% miserable

00:20:20.660 that's pretty good math

00:20:21.980 actually

00:20:22.440 that's you know

00:20:23.560 better than most lives

00:20:24.700 so stick with it

00:20:26.100 I don't

00:20:26.860 yeah

00:20:27.480 that's crucially different

00:20:29.000 from what I'm

00:20:29.460 feel free to press on

00:20:31.160 and criticize that view

00:20:33.360 but there's a few wrinkles there

00:20:34.880 that I would

00:20:35.280 I think I'm going to agree with you

00:20:36.540 that that doesn't capture

00:20:37.680 what I'm after

00:20:38.400 so

00:20:39.080 how far are you willing to go

00:20:41.100 so there's a view

00:20:41.920 which I think

00:20:42.500 Dan holds

00:20:43.260 because he told me

00:20:44.360 he holds it

00:20:44.740 which is

00:20:45.100 you know

00:20:45.720 a sort of straightforward hedonism

00:20:47.520 which is

00:20:48.400 we think

00:20:49.420 there's something about

00:20:51.240 the experience

00:20:52.700 of saying

00:20:53.780 oh my life is a waste

00:20:54.900 and I wish I was helping people

00:20:56.180 and I don't have any purpose

00:20:57.660 we think that's sort of

00:20:58.760 a different kind of motivation

00:21:00.700 than the motivation

00:21:02.000 that makes us want to lie in the pool

00:21:03.500 but it's all the same

00:21:04.800 it's all pleasure

00:21:05.640 right

00:21:06.180 and so

00:21:06.660 all altruism

00:21:08.320 is in fact

00:21:09.460 some kind of self gratification

00:21:11.940 that's right

00:21:13.120 I mean

00:21:13.300 Dan doesn't make this argument

00:21:14.480 but I've heard it enough

00:21:15.560 I've

00:21:15.860 made a lot of

00:21:17.440 I've done a lot of work

00:21:19.240 looking at moral motivations

00:21:20.540 and why we sometimes

00:21:21.840 do good things to each other

00:21:22.880 and cruel things to each other

00:21:24.000 and

00:21:24.720 I think there's

00:21:25.880 very strong evidence

00:21:26.920 that we have more

00:21:27.740 honestly moral motivations

00:21:29.280 we don't just want to

00:21:30.380 impress others

00:21:31.740 we really want to do

00:21:33.380 do good stuff

00:21:34.520 or sometimes bad stuff

00:21:35.760 but

00:21:36.440 the hedonist will push back

00:21:38.140 and say

00:21:39.040 well you know

00:21:39.440 when you

00:21:39.820 when you

00:21:40.760 give up

00:21:41.900 a really pleasant afternoon

00:21:43.580 to go visit a sick friend

00:21:44.760 in the hospital

00:21:45.440 you think you're doing it

00:21:47.560 because you care about a friend

00:21:48.680 but really you like the buzz

00:21:50.040 you get

00:21:50.560 from doing it

00:21:51.860 and you want to avoid the pain

00:21:53.940 the guilt

00:21:54.600 of not doing it

00:21:55.460 well there is truth to that

00:21:57.600 but that's not as deflationary

00:21:59.720 as I think

00:22:00.380 a hedonist

00:22:01.860 would

00:22:02.500 allege

00:22:03.380 I mean so

00:22:03.820 the buzz you get

00:22:05.180 you know

00:22:05.940 another

00:22:06.240 word for that is

00:22:08.100 or potential words for that is

00:22:10.360 our love

00:22:11.760 and compassion

00:22:12.760 and

00:22:13.480 connection

00:22:14.480 and you know

00:22:15.960 it's friendship

00:22:16.700 you know

00:22:17.100 it's like

00:22:17.380 depending on the circumstance

00:22:18.760 that's

00:22:19.620 some of the good stuff

00:22:21.180 in life

00:22:21.680 that you

00:22:22.160 yes you

00:22:23.020 you can say you want it

00:22:24.140 selfishly

00:22:25.000 but

00:22:25.300 it's

00:22:26.160 a wise

00:22:27.640 form of selfishness

00:22:28.940 it's not just another

00:22:29.940 hot fudge sundae

00:22:30.720 you know

00:22:31.380 there's no regret component

00:22:32.560 like there's a kind of hedonism

00:22:34.280 that is

00:22:35.760 by its very nature

00:22:37.440 superficial

00:22:38.220 and therefore

00:22:39.520 when you look back on it

00:22:40.880 it doesn't really survive

00:22:42.860 scrutiny

00:22:44.120 like you

00:22:44.700 it's very easy

00:22:46.040 for someone to run the argument

00:22:47.580 that okay

00:22:47.980 you've wasted your life

00:22:49.360 all you did was stay in a swimming pool

00:22:51.060 the whole time

00:22:51.840 really

00:22:52.240 the whole time

00:22:53.000 I don't care how

00:22:54.340 perfect the temperature

00:22:55.460 of that pool was

00:22:56.260 there was more to life

00:22:57.680 than that

00:22:58.340 and

00:22:58.800 yet

00:22:59.740 you wouldn't say that

00:23:00.860 of

00:23:01.140 someone wouldn't say

00:23:02.240 oh

00:23:02.460 all you did was

00:23:03.680 surround yourself

00:23:04.680 with people

00:23:05.340 who you deeply loved

00:23:06.740 and cared for

00:23:07.460 and you made their lives better

00:23:08.660 and you prioritized

00:23:09.800 minimizing human suffering

00:23:11.460 across the board

00:23:12.280 and you became famous

00:23:13.620 for your compassion

00:23:14.420 and millions of people

00:23:16.020 said you were their hero

00:23:17.020 and you had this virtuous circle

00:23:19.420 where you know

00:23:19.960 everything was aligned

00:23:21.060 in your life

00:23:21.640 and there was no possibility

00:23:22.940 of hypocrisy

00:23:23.640 and what you were like

00:23:24.960 behind closed doors

00:23:25.860 was every bit as noble

00:23:26.880 as how you seemed

00:23:28.460 to be in public

00:23:29.120 and oh yeah

00:23:30.040 you just wasted your life

00:23:31.120 exactly

00:23:31.920 I mean

00:23:32.860 there's two separate objections

00:23:34.400 you could make

00:23:35.000 first is what you alluded to earlier

00:23:36.820 which is

00:23:37.280 you know

00:23:37.860 suppose you say

00:23:38.960 you spent the afternoon

00:23:40.340 visiting a sick friend

00:23:41.340 and it wasn't

00:23:42.600 it wasn't a lot of fun

00:23:43.620 but afterwards

00:23:44.580 you said

00:23:45.020 well I feel good about it

00:23:46.080 I did the right thing

00:23:47.220 you know

00:23:48.260 first

00:23:49.380 why do you feel good about it

00:23:51.260 well you feel good about it

00:23:52.460 because you were

00:23:53.100 you want to do good things

00:23:54.280 because you have a motivation

00:23:55.420 to do good

00:23:56.700 you recognize its value

00:23:58.460 and that's what drives the pleasure

00:24:00.280 it's not the same pleasure

00:24:01.300 as biting into a sugary treat

00:24:03.380 or having to pool

00:24:04.320 the right temperature

00:24:05.040 and I think second

00:24:06.820 and this is maybe

00:24:07.740 a deeper objection

00:24:08.660 is

00:24:09.480 as a motivational theory

00:24:11.160 this is often

00:24:11.700 simply mistaken

00:24:12.760 we both have kids

00:24:14.200 and we want our kids

00:24:15.580 to flourish

00:24:16.060 and be happy

00:24:16.880 and sometimes

00:24:17.540 it's a lot of suffering

00:24:19.300 for us to do so

00:24:20.160 it's a lot of work

00:24:20.940 maybe you know

00:24:22.060 you miss out on things

00:24:22.900 you want to do

00:24:23.500 maybe

00:24:23.840 your child's going

00:24:25.000 through a difficult time

00:24:25.960 and you're struggling

00:24:26.660 with your child

00:24:27.380 to help out

00:24:28.000 and if some psychologist

00:24:29.480 was to say

00:24:30.160 well you're really

00:24:31.160 just doing this

00:24:32.000 because you get

00:24:32.560 a pleasurable buzz

00:24:33.860 from doing it

00:24:35.420 I think you're right

00:24:36.720 to say

00:24:36.960 that's ridiculous

00:24:37.620 you're doing it

00:24:39.000 because you value

00:24:40.320 certain things

00:24:41.020 but doesn't the research show

00:24:42.100 I mean I think this goes

00:24:42.820 to Dan Gilbert's research

00:24:44.540 specifically

00:24:45.660 that basically

00:24:46.660 parenthood is a

00:24:48.040 net negative

00:24:49.820 for almost everybody

00:24:52.440 for a very long time

00:24:54.080 of like

00:24:54.360 I don't know

00:24:54.660 I forget what the time course

00:24:55.900 of recovery period is here

00:24:57.720 but don't you

00:24:59.220 basically have

00:25:00.300 diminished happiness

00:25:01.080 for many many years

00:25:02.700 reliably

00:25:03.440 becoming a parent

00:25:04.400 you know

00:25:05.580 it's complicated

00:25:06.560 so yeah

00:25:07.500 there's some work

00:25:09.100 still done

00:25:09.720 by Danny Kahneman

00:25:10.820 finds that

00:25:12.460 if you use a beeper

00:25:13.920 with parents

00:25:14.680 and it beeps randomly

00:25:15.880 when they're with their kids

00:25:17.380 despite what they'll tell you

00:25:18.620 they're kind of miserable

00:25:19.540 and you know

00:25:20.940 being with kids

00:25:21.760 ranks somewhere around

00:25:22.820 you know

00:25:23.140 menial housework

00:25:24.400 and far below

00:25:26.260 things like

00:25:26.920 interacting with friends

00:25:28.000 or having sex

00:25:29.240 or having a good time

00:25:30.240 and this research

00:25:32.260 finds that

00:25:33.040 non-parents

00:25:34.080 sorry parents

00:25:34.860 are worse

00:25:35.280 have it worse

00:25:35.900 than non-parents

00:25:36.620 other research

00:25:38.060 which Dan

00:25:39.260 like loves to describe

00:25:40.280 looks at marital

00:25:41.620 satisfaction

00:25:42.400 when you have kids

00:25:44.060 and the idea is

00:25:44.580 you start off very happy

00:25:45.640 before you have kids

00:25:46.680 you have kids

00:25:47.680 satisfaction drops

00:25:48.880 you have more kids

00:25:49.740 it drops more

00:25:50.460 your teenagers

00:25:51.480 is at the bottom

00:25:52.340 and then they start

00:25:53.620 to leave the house

00:25:54.460 and your happiness

00:25:55.260 rises and rises

00:25:56.940 he has this line

00:25:58.340 saying

00:25:58.780 the only sign

00:26:00.260 of empty nest syndrome

00:26:01.300 is increased smiling

00:26:02.340 this is Kahneman

00:26:05.260 or Gilbert

00:26:05.700 this is Gilbert

00:26:06.880 this is Gilbert

00:26:07.700 Kahneman is nowhere near

00:26:08.880 as funny

00:26:09.300 brilliant

00:26:09.740 but nowhere near

00:26:10.440 as funny

00:26:10.900 but it gets more

00:26:13.100 complicated

00:26:13.640 so other studies

00:26:15.460 since then

00:26:16.080 have found

00:26:16.520 that it depends

00:26:17.140 who you are

00:26:17.840 fathers tend

00:26:19.300 to be happier

00:26:20.000 with parenthood

00:26:21.540 than mothers

00:26:22.260 older people

00:26:23.600 happier

00:26:24.240 than younger people

00:26:25.120 and there's an

00:26:26.000 enormous country

00:26:26.860 difference

00:26:27.300 where

00:26:28.360 countries

00:26:29.080 that have

00:26:29.500 a lot

00:26:29.760 of child support

00:26:30.640 Scandinavian countries

00:26:32.860 and so on

00:26:33.420 for them

00:26:34.360 parents

00:26:35.380 are actually

00:26:35.820 happier

00:26:36.200 than non-parents

00:26:36.880 the country

00:26:38.220 out of

00:26:38.660 a survey

00:26:39.400 of 22 countries

00:26:40.440 where there's

00:26:41.160 the biggest

00:26:41.600 happiness

00:26:42.260 blow

00:26:42.820 to having kids

00:26:43.960 for one reason

00:26:44.960 or another

00:26:45.300 is United States

00:26:46.160 so

00:26:47.480 even if you're

00:26:48.560 just a hedonist

00:26:49.380 I don't think

00:26:49.800 you should be

00:26:50.220 just a hedonist

00:26:50.700 even if you're

00:26:51.040 just a hedonist

00:26:51.560 it's kind of

00:26:52.460 complicated

00:26:52.980 how you're

00:26:54.140 situated

00:26:54.500 whether or not

00:26:54.960 to have kids

00:26:55.560 but I think

00:26:57.600 in the end

00:26:58.040 when you ask

00:26:58.740 people

00:26:59.580 when you ask

00:27:01.260 people

00:27:01.500 do you regret

00:27:02.360 having kids

00:27:03.000 even on a private

00:27:03.780 survey

00:27:04.140 people say

00:27:04.600 no

00:27:04.940 greatest thing

00:27:05.700 in my life

00:27:06.220 and here's

00:27:07.320 where you might

00:27:07.920 jump in

00:27:08.360 and say

00:27:08.640 well

00:27:08.880 this could be

00:27:09.660 a case

00:27:09.960 of self-delusion

00:27:10.760 to say

00:27:12.280 this biggest

00:27:12.960 thing of your

00:27:13.580 life

00:27:13.960 which caused

00:27:14.780 so much

00:27:15.480 so much

00:27:16.580 transformation

00:27:17.220 some of it

00:27:17.860 negative

00:27:18.360 was a bad

00:27:20.700 thing

00:27:20.920 a mistake

00:27:21.540 maybe too much

00:27:22.440 for people to bear

00:27:23.140 and they might

00:27:23.680 tell themselves

00:27:24.200 good stories

00:27:24.780 about it

00:27:25.560 but I actually

00:27:26.300 think that

00:27:26.960 when people

00:27:27.820 answer a question

00:27:28.540 like that

00:27:28.920 they're not

00:27:29.300 talking about

00:27:30.000 hedonist

00:27:30.500 they're not

00:27:30.800 talking about

00:27:31.360 pleasure

00:27:31.940 they're talking

00:27:32.840 about other

00:27:33.140 sources of value

00:27:33.960 yeah I mean

00:27:35.240 this is so

00:27:35.660 interesting

00:27:35.960 because maybe

00:27:37.260 let's jump

00:27:37.960 to suffering

00:27:39.020 for a second

00:27:39.540 because there's

00:27:40.160 something

00:27:40.540 an unsought

00:27:41.560 suffering

00:27:42.000 because something

00:27:42.900 clarifying about

00:27:43.680 it I was

00:27:43.980 thinking at one

00:27:44.720 point in

00:27:45.560 reading your

00:27:45.940 book I

00:27:47.080 asked myself

00:27:47.900 I think you

00:27:48.920 were talking

00:27:49.420 about why

00:27:50.560 people seek

00:27:51.240 out horror

00:27:51.720 movies and

00:27:52.420 other noxious

00:27:54.320 stimuli

00:27:54.840 and also

00:27:56.740 those cases

00:27:57.280 where you

00:27:58.140 know a bad

00:27:58.600 experience

00:27:59.180 is rated as

00:28:00.580 something that

00:28:01.620 in the end

00:28:02.020 is a net

00:28:02.420 positive

00:28:02.860 which seems

00:28:04.360 somewhat

00:28:05.260 paradoxical

00:28:06.220 or can seem

00:28:06.760 paradoxical

00:28:07.360 because I

00:28:08.500 mean it can

00:28:08.860 be something

00:28:09.180 that by

00:28:09.520 definition

00:28:10.140 you would

00:28:10.900 never want

00:28:11.520 to repeat

00:28:12.160 right but

00:28:13.100 you get

00:28:14.100 people saying

00:28:14.860 that they're

00:28:16.000 glad it

00:28:16.440 happened to

00:28:17.160 them right

00:28:17.580 and so I

00:28:18.680 asked myself

00:28:19.680 the question

00:28:20.180 what's the

00:28:21.440 worst thing

00:28:21.980 I've ever

00:28:22.360 seen in

00:28:22.820 my life

00:28:23.360 so maybe

00:28:25.020 I'll describe

00:28:25.960 this because

00:28:26.660 maybe a

00:28:28.240 trigger warning

00:28:28.880 is in order

00:28:29.900 so I'm about

00:28:30.460 to describe

00:28:30.900 something

00:28:31.160 I'm stealing

00:28:32.080 myself

00:28:32.560 yeah absolutely

00:28:33.240 horrible

00:28:33.620 but it's

00:28:35.700 not that I

00:28:36.280 wish this

00:28:37.460 thing hadn't

00:28:37.860 happened because

00:28:38.500 it happened to

00:28:39.040 somebody else

00:28:39.560 and it was a

00:28:39.960 horrible thing

00:28:40.400 to happen

00:28:40.740 but I can't

00:28:41.800 say that I

00:28:42.220 wish I hadn't

00:28:42.840 seen it

00:28:43.360 but there's no

00:28:44.360 way if you

00:28:45.020 told me

00:28:45.640 okay you

00:28:46.420 can go

00:28:46.620 you can see

00:28:47.020 that again

00:28:47.640 there's no

00:28:48.680 way I would

00:28:49.320 decide to

00:28:50.100 see it again

00:28:50.640 so psychologically

00:28:51.940 it's just

00:28:52.420 it's strange

00:28:53.360 to be in this

00:28:54.220 spot but

00:28:54.640 anyway I was

00:28:55.200 on a trip

00:28:55.980 to India

00:28:56.440 and we

00:28:58.320 were in the

00:28:58.560 back of a

00:28:58.980 taxi and

00:28:59.620 driving down

00:29:00.440 one of these

00:29:01.660 predictably

00:29:03.140 chaotic roads

00:29:04.640 outside of

00:29:05.680 Delhi and

00:29:06.340 there was a

00:29:07.440 bus that

00:29:08.660 was at a

00:29:09.160 kind of an

00:29:09.440 odd parked

00:29:09.960 at an odd

00:29:10.420 angle with

00:29:11.120 the curb

00:29:11.680 and there was

00:29:12.620 a massive

00:29:13.100 traffic jam

00:29:13.820 and we were

00:29:14.080 slowly passing

00:29:14.860 this bus

00:29:15.380 and people

00:29:15.700 were milling

00:29:16.140 around and

00:29:16.640 it had all

00:29:17.160 the signs

00:29:17.600 of something

00:29:18.280 untoward

00:29:19.360 had happened

00:29:19.860 and the

00:29:21.900 bus looked

00:29:22.540 like it

00:29:22.860 had hit

00:29:23.360 something

00:29:24.360 and just

00:29:24.820 parked on

00:29:25.820 the curb

00:29:27.080 and I was

00:29:28.180 scanning the

00:29:29.140 scene looking

00:29:29.860 to see

00:29:30.440 as one does

00:29:32.520 morbidly looking

00:29:33.600 for the thing

00:29:34.140 that you were

00:29:34.580 going to wish

00:29:35.560 you hadn't

00:29:35.940 seen but

00:29:36.560 still this is

00:29:37.220 why traffic

00:29:38.520 predictably

00:29:39.080 slows when

00:29:39.800 there's an

00:29:40.060 accident

00:29:40.340 so I was

00:29:41.680 looking over

00:29:42.920 the scene to

00:29:43.600 see what

00:29:45.000 had happened

00:29:45.460 and I

00:29:45.840 was I

00:29:46.600 mean it

00:29:46.840 unfolded

00:29:47.320 this way

00:29:47.820 so I'm

00:29:48.300 looking it

00:29:48.880 looked like

00:29:49.260 it had hit

00:29:49.640 a fruit

00:29:50.260 cart and

00:29:51.460 it was just

00:29:51.880 you know the

00:29:52.400 fruit cart was

00:29:53.060 just obliterated

00:29:54.260 and I was

00:29:55.700 looking for a

00:29:56.700 person or

00:29:57.660 people and I

00:29:58.580 thought I

00:29:59.440 experienced this

00:30:00.040 profound relief

00:30:00.900 that there was

00:30:01.340 no people and

00:30:02.320 there were no

00:30:02.660 people in sight

00:30:03.440 that had been

00:30:04.380 hit by this

00:30:04.880 bus and

00:30:06.140 then I

00:30:06.500 recognized in

00:30:07.280 the next

00:30:07.560 moment that

00:30:08.120 what I

00:30:08.580 thought was a

00:30:09.700 fruit cart was

00:30:11.000 in fact a

00:30:11.560 person who

00:30:12.540 had just

00:30:12.980 been obliterated

00:30:14.400 by a speeding

00:30:15.360 bus I mean

00:30:16.180 literally this

00:30:16.860 person had been

00:30:17.680 smeared over

00:30:18.640 40 feet of

00:30:20.120 pavement and

00:30:21.600 it was an

00:30:22.800 absolutely

00:30:23.480 mind-stopping

00:30:25.160 vision of

00:30:26.020 just the most

00:30:26.820 awful thing that

00:30:27.740 can happen and

00:30:29.600 so that's the

00:30:30.820 worst thing I've

00:30:31.400 ever seen with

00:30:32.780 my eyes that

00:30:33.700 was real and

00:30:35.520 yet I can't

00:30:37.800 say that I

00:30:39.380 wish I had

00:30:39.940 never seen it

00:30:41.000 but I would

00:30:41.400 of course never

00:30:42.180 want to be in

00:30:43.260 that situation

00:30:44.100 again so it's

00:30:45.660 just psychologically

00:30:46.640 it's if I had to

00:30:49.100 specify the good

00:30:49.880 that came to me

00:30:50.580 from seeing it

00:30:51.260 it's the I

00:30:52.400 mean I was

00:30:52.620 sitting with one

00:30:53.060 of my best

00:30:53.460 friends I mean

00:30:54.100 this it was it

00:30:54.820 was a shared

00:30:55.260 experience right

00:30:56.080 so this is now

00:30:56.620 something that we

00:30:57.280 have we haven't

00:30:58.300 talked about it

00:30:58.880 often but it has

00:30:59.660 come to mind

00:31:00.340 occasionally and

00:31:01.780 it was just it's

00:31:02.480 a kind of corner

00:31:04.280 condition of human

00:31:05.560 existence it's like

00:31:06.600 it's a kind of

00:31:07.420 peak I mean it's

00:31:08.140 strange to call it a

00:31:09.000 peak experience but

00:31:09.860 it's a kind of

00:31:10.580 peak experience in

00:31:11.640 the sense that it

00:31:12.220 was that arresting

00:31:14.060 so there's their

00:31:15.220 experiences of

00:31:16.320 emergency and

00:31:17.960 just sheer

00:31:18.460 unpleasantness and

00:31:19.900 horror that can

00:31:21.780 still if they're

00:31:22.300 abbreviated enough or

00:31:23.540 if they're knock-on

00:31:24.260 effects are not

00:31:25.220 continuous and

00:31:26.740 terrible for you

00:31:27.660 personally they do

00:31:29.460 sort of go in the

00:31:30.340 column of

00:31:31.220 experiences you were

00:31:32.880 glad you had and

00:31:34.120 you would wouldn't

00:31:35.160 in fact wish to be

00:31:36.340 without I think

00:31:38.120 that's right I'm

00:31:39.240 for the most part

00:31:40.560 take the intuitive

00:31:42.020 view that unchosen

00:31:43.120 suffering is a bad

00:31:45.360 thing but

00:31:46.720 occasionally there

00:31:48.360 are things that you

00:31:49.260 would experience that

00:31:50.380 could have a positive

00:31:51.120 effect on you that you

00:31:52.040 would have never

00:31:52.540 chosen to experience

00:31:53.740 and it could have a

00:31:55.200 positive effect in

00:31:56.160 terms of you know

00:31:57.520 changing how you

00:31:58.360 think about the

00:31:58.780 world changing your

00:31:59.800 emotions or simply

00:32:01.960 broadening your scope

00:32:03.200 of human experience

00:32:04.120 so I think a lot of

00:32:06.300 claims about the

00:32:07.020 benefits of

00:32:08.280 unchosen suffering are

00:32:10.140 exaggerated but

00:32:11.280 there's actually

00:32:11.880 psychological evidence

00:32:13.140 that looks at

00:32:14.600 people's the amount

00:32:15.940 of suffering people

00:32:16.620 have had in their

00:32:17.260 life and it turns

00:32:18.940 out that people who

00:32:19.760 have had very low

00:32:21.560 amounts of suffering

00:32:22.600 tend to have low

00:32:24.000 pain tolerance and

00:32:25.180 low resilience and

00:32:27.020 in other research

00:32:28.160 they're less kind

00:32:29.000 they're less able to

00:32:30.800 help other people

00:32:31.620 there may be

00:32:32.860 something to be said

00:32:34.760 for the idea that a

00:32:35.640 certain amount of

00:32:36.300 unchosen suffering I

00:32:37.920 don't know builds

00:32:38.620 character toughens you

00:32:39.920 up you know the

00:32:41.220 same studies find that

00:32:42.160 people who report a

00:32:43.280 lot of suffering in

00:32:44.800 their lives also have

00:32:46.300 low pain tolerance

00:32:47.520 and low resilience

00:32:48.340 there's kind of a

00:32:49.480 sweet spot in the

00:32:50.200 middle yeah wouldn't

00:32:50.860 you just expect there

00:32:51.800 to be some kind of

00:32:52.660 normal distribution over

00:32:54.160 this where some

00:32:55.080 people like on the

00:32:56.220 question of you know

00:32:57.440 what doesn't kill you

00:32:58.280 makes you stronger I

00:32:59.220 mean there's going to

00:32:59.760 be a cohort for whom

00:33:01.620 that is absolutely

00:33:02.740 true and a cohort for

00:33:04.060 whom it's absolutely

00:33:05.040 not true I would

00:33:06.700 expect that I would

00:33:07.480 also expect that maybe

00:33:09.560 the suffering that

00:33:10.460 does us the most

00:33:11.280 good is of an

00:33:12.780 intermediate sort yeah

00:33:14.040 you know Nietzsche is

00:33:16.200 as you know he loves

00:33:17.960 aphorisms and it's

00:33:19.140 such an exaggeration

00:33:20.220 often what doesn't

00:33:21.640 kill us causes us

00:33:22.740 terrible damage we

00:33:23.620 never recover from

00:33:24.720 yeah but sometimes

00:33:26.200 sometimes the right

00:33:28.040 sort of unchosen

00:33:28.760 suffering could lead

00:33:29.540 to a positive

00:33:30.140 transformation yeah

00:33:31.980 I mean so there's

00:33:32.840 so many intersecting

00:33:34.920 issues here because

00:33:35.840 I mean you would

00:33:36.620 think you know as

00:33:38.800 Danny Kahneman

00:33:40.360 thought early in his

00:33:41.680 career that you

00:33:42.380 should just be able

00:33:43.080 to aggregate this

00:33:44.100 stuff in a straightforward

00:33:45.180 way but we know

00:33:46.920 that there's so many

00:33:47.840 other variables there

00:33:49.900 there are framing

00:33:50.580 effects where basically

00:33:51.720 the same experience

00:33:52.960 can be good or bad

00:33:54.200 depending on how you

00:33:55.960 conceptualize it I

00:33:57.000 mean this is obviously

00:33:58.260 Shakespeare got here

00:33:59.120 first what's the

00:34:00.420 actual quote there

00:34:01.600 is nothing either

00:34:02.320 good or bad but

00:34:03.660 thinking makes it so

00:34:04.640 yeah yeah and so

00:34:08.020 there's that and

00:34:08.940 there's also just this

00:34:09.820 asymmetry between pain

00:34:12.360 and pleasure or

00:34:13.320 happiness and suffering

00:34:14.500 which is the bad

00:34:16.480 commensurately bad

00:34:17.960 things are in fact

00:34:20.240 incommensurable with

00:34:21.720 with the good things

00:34:22.940 and even just the the

00:34:25.620 order of things matters

00:34:27.040 we weight loss as more

00:34:29.700 significant than gain

00:34:30.940 even when we're

00:34:31.680 talking about the

00:34:32.240 same thing right

00:34:33.600 which is to say you

00:34:34.960 you know you people

00:34:36.000 care more about losing

00:34:37.220 a hundred dollars than

00:34:38.140 gaining a hundred

00:34:38.780 dollars so how do you

00:34:40.460 recommend that we

00:34:42.000 start doing the

00:34:43.520 arithmetic in our own

00:34:44.880 lives as we're trying

00:34:45.820 to figure out what's

00:34:47.420 important what should

00:34:49.260 supersede something

00:34:51.200 else what sacrifices are

00:34:53.220 worth making how much

00:34:54.360 meaning making struggle

00:34:57.240 is a good idea versus

00:34:59.740 just you know an

00:35:01.720 expense we we

00:35:02.920 shouldn't actually be

00:35:03.780 paying when we you

00:35:04.920 know really should we'd

00:35:05.820 be wiser to be in in

00:35:07.360 the big warm pool with

00:35:08.800 Dan Gilbert how do you

00:35:10.960 think about these things

00:35:11.680 for yourself I think

00:35:13.280 that's the hard problem

00:35:14.440 of life you know if

00:35:16.120 we're motivational

00:35:16.780 pluralist which I think

00:35:18.000 we are and we want

00:35:19.360 many things then there's

00:35:21.040 the question of how to

00:35:21.900 trade them off and how

00:35:23.120 to determine the

00:35:23.760 relative value and

00:35:25.640 it's a question that

00:35:26.340 can't be ducked at

00:35:27.860 every point we have to

00:35:29.540 decide whether to sort

00:35:30.860 of you know lie on the

00:35:32.260 couch and watch

00:35:32.860 Netflix or visit the

00:35:34.500 sick friend or I

00:35:36.060 don't know read up on

00:35:36.900 astronomy and learn

00:35:37.760 some facts we didn't

00:35:38.840 know you can stand on

00:35:39.980 one leg and watch

00:35:40.880 Netflix and just kind of

00:35:42.200 get both going at the

00:35:43.600 same time yes you

00:35:45.140 could do you could do

00:35:45.980 Netflix while while

00:35:47.060 doing push-ups or

00:35:47.860 something and just get

00:35:49.320 everything all worked

00:35:50.340 out but yeah we you

00:35:52.360 know there's a

00:35:53.180 certain balance and

00:35:53.840 people choose different

00:35:55.120 sides of this balance

00:35:57.240 I like there's a

00:35:59.180 wonderful thought

00:35:59.940 experiment by the

00:36:00.980 philosopher Nozick of

00:36:01.940 an experienced machine

00:36:02.960 where they they plug you

00:36:04.880 into a machine and you

00:36:06.640 live a rich full happy

00:36:09.080 life that's not real it's

00:36:10.600 the matrix basically and

00:36:12.500 Nozick says well nobody

00:36:14.540 would want to choose to

00:36:15.600 go into the machine

00:36:16.340 because the problem of

00:36:17.240 the machine is you think

00:36:19.040 I don't know you think

00:36:19.980 you have a rich fulfilling

00:36:21.060 relationships and people

00:36:22.680 who love you and climbing

00:36:23.880 Mount Everest and solving

00:36:25.720 world hunger but it's just

00:36:27.320 an illusion it's just a

00:36:28.420 dream you're not doing

00:36:29.300 anything you're a blob and

00:36:31.700 then Nozick says who wants

00:36:32.820 to be a blob and I share

00:36:35.500 Nozick's intuition I'm

00:36:36.660 actually curious whether you

00:36:38.120 do too that I wouldn't want

00:36:39.840 to get plugged into the

00:36:40.680 machine regardless of how

00:36:41.680 much pleasure it gives me but

00:36:43.680 I gotta admit I've been

00:36:44.940 asking students undergraduates

00:36:47.120 graduate students about

00:36:48.040 the experience machine for a

00:36:49.060 long time and a

00:36:50.360 substantial number of

00:36:51.820 them I think I'm getting

00:36:53.480 to now more than half say

00:36:55.180 yeah I plug in yeah well

00:36:58.140 it's also interesting when

00:36:59.080 you consider it from the

00:36:59.840 other side because and

00:37:01.100 this is something you you

00:37:02.220 do in your book when you

00:37:03.160 when you try to disentangle

00:37:05.320 it from status quo bias and

00:37:08.180 imagine you're already in

00:37:09.940 the machine and now you're

00:37:11.300 you're being lifted out and

00:37:13.060 you're consulted you know do

00:37:14.580 you want to go back to that

00:37:15.720 supremely happy fake life that

00:37:18.160 you just thought was real for

00:37:19.180 the last 50 years and viewed

00:37:22.900 from that side you could see

00:37:24.360 more people wanting to plug

00:37:25.960 back in if they realize the

00:37:27.360 thing that they had been

00:37:28.980 enjoying so much you know is

00:37:31.260 what they're returning to it

00:37:32.880 really shook me up when I read

00:37:34.260 about the case where they

00:37:35.620 switch the priors when they

00:37:37.360 switch to the status quo because

00:37:39.040 I was definitely a no machine

00:37:40.980 kind of guy and then if I you

00:37:43.040 know I wake up boom all of a

00:37:44.460 years a flash and I'm sitting

00:37:45.420 in a room and some

00:37:46.700 technicians are saying you

00:37:48.020 know you've been in the

00:37:49.020 machine for 10 years this is

00:37:50.640 your annual we take you out

00:37:52.040 and we we say you know do you

00:37:53.920 want to go back and if of

00:37:56.500 course if you go back we wipe

00:37:57.860 out your memory this

00:37:58.600 experience you think it's a

00:37:59.660 real life but it's just an

00:38:00.660 illusion and I think back

00:38:02.680 imagine thinking about my

00:38:04.160 children and the people I

00:38:05.240 love and the projects I'm

00:38:06.380 engaged in and I see would

00:38:08.440 feel this wave of of horror

00:38:11.040 that it was all and all

00:38:12.720 nothing just a dream but I

00:38:15.740 think I'd want to go back

00:38:16.820 to them back you know it I

00:38:19.100 have too much attachments to

00:38:21.100 think of cutting myself loose

00:38:22.560 even if they turned out to be

00:38:23.960 imaginary well and certainly

00:38:25.580 most people have had this

00:38:26.860 experience of wanting to get

00:38:28.160 back into a dream right like

00:38:29.760 you wake up yes incredibly fun

00:38:32.680 dream and you wish you could

00:38:35.980 just close your eyes and just

00:38:36.960 jump back in in fact you know

00:38:38.520 I think once or twice in my

00:38:40.240 life I've managed to do that and

00:38:42.160 so that's you know obviously

00:38:43.180 you're not committing for the

00:38:44.180 rest of your existence to do

00:38:45.640 that but it's you know people

00:38:47.560 have they show a certainly a

00:38:50.720 willingness to be diverted as

00:38:54.780 pleasantly as possible by

00:38:56.120 something they know isn't real

00:38:58.140 you know not for their entire

00:38:59.720 lives but for a surprising portion

00:39:02.120 of it when you count all the time

00:39:04.220 we spend vicariously going on

00:39:07.680 adventures with others through

00:39:08.900 fiction and film and television and

00:39:11.280 all the rest that's right so to go

00:39:14.120 back to your question how do you

00:39:15.320 balance all of this the answer is

00:39:17.560 you don't give pleasure zero I've

00:39:20.340 encountered a lot of people who

00:39:21.460 are hedonists and they say look

00:39:22.740 there's just you know a one word

00:39:24.180 answer to what people want and it's

00:39:25.600 pleasure and I don't agree with

00:39:27.440 them but I also don't agree with

00:39:29.300 people who say it's all about

00:39:31.020 meaning and struggle and purpose

00:39:32.800 because pleasure has some value it

00:39:35.200 has some intrinsic value and it has

00:39:37.860 some value as part of a good life I

00:39:40.380 mean to go back to your question

00:39:41.940 also about all of these biases and

00:39:44.280 negativity bias and order bias I

00:39:47.200 think and and how do we cope with

00:39:48.820 this you could take it in a bit of a

00:39:50.960 different direction and and say

00:39:52.420 whatever problems these pose they're

00:39:55.240 also a source of fun so in a part of

00:39:58.820 my book where I talk about suffering as

00:40:00.420 a source of pleasure part of this

00:40:02.380 involves playing with these biases so

00:40:04.380 you might give yourself a bad

00:40:06.260 experience like a very hot bath or a

00:40:08.440 sauna or spicy food in order to get

00:40:12.580 pleasure from the relief when that

00:40:14.520 goes away it's a very sort of common

00:40:16.640 human pleasure you may enjoy the

00:40:18.460 mastery of control pain you may enjoy

00:40:21.840 the rhythm so um give an example of

00:40:24.460 revenge films you must have seen john

00:40:26.360 wick uh I've seen one of them or or

00:40:29.600 most of one of them yeah so I get

00:40:31.420 there I get that yeah I think you got

00:40:33.620 the gist um in the first one he's a

00:40:36.860 retired assassin and then early in the

00:40:39.340 movie um some russian mobsters he has

00:40:41.900 a run-in with kill his dog and it's

00:40:44.860 very sad and then the rest of the movie

00:40:46.600 he takes his revenge that's how you know

00:40:49.020 they're really evil killing the family

00:40:50.780 is not enough if they have to kill the

00:40:52.380 dog and then you and you know they're

00:40:53.880 really going to deserve what they get

00:40:55.080 right so you so you feel right if they

00:40:57.520 simply kill some people towards the

00:40:59.040 end of the movie you say isn't this

00:41:00.100 excessive but it's not excessive at

00:41:02.920 all as john wick must have killed a

00:41:04.460 hundred a thousand people you feel

00:41:06.400 yeah well it was a dog they had it

00:41:08.400 coming and this movie has a rhythm to

00:41:11.380 it and it's sort of a classic rhythm for

00:41:13.900 many many movies and many stories which

00:41:15.920 is bad thing then good thing and if you

00:41:19.840 were sort of so foolish to think wow

00:41:21.840 this would be a better movie if you took

00:41:23.200 out that sad part of the dog well you

00:41:25.560 can't have the good part without the

00:41:27.120 bad part you you know the revenge films

00:41:29.840 have to have the bad act so we feel so

00:41:33.620 justified and so happy when the good

00:41:36.080 stuff comes yeah well there's a direct

00:41:40.000 analogy to life too this is kind of back

00:41:42.040 to Kahneman and the peak end rule or I

00:41:44.780 guess just the end rule the order of

00:41:46.440 things matters I mean we feel like a bad

00:41:49.560 thing followed by a good thing redeems the

00:41:52.620 whole enterprise whereas a good thing

00:41:54.760 followed by a bad thing is a catastrophe

00:41:57.200 that's right there's there's a rhythm of

00:41:59.380 the lives we want psychologists have

00:42:01.900 asked people you know questions like

00:42:03.460 how do you want your life to go and

00:42:05.700 people want their lives to get better

00:42:07.060 and better there's something called a

00:42:09.020 James Dean effect where people really

00:42:10.860 love lives that end on a high note as

00:42:13.600 opposed to most of our lives which kind

00:42:15.240 of peak out at a certain point and then

00:42:17.020 often the last few years aren't so great

00:42:19.020 and people even if those last few years

00:42:21.340 are happy still it's better to end on a

00:42:24.880 high note or take a more local case take

00:42:27.680 it take a job you work at for 10 years

00:42:29.980 and each year your salary goes up a bit

00:42:32.420 forget about inflation I just need an

00:42:34.380 absolute amount your salary goes up a

00:42:36.060 bit versus you're working a job for 10

00:42:38.660 years and each year your salary drops but

00:42:40.740 suppose it turned out that the math was

00:42:42.660 such that in a dropping case you actually

00:42:45.020 made overall more money still people say

00:42:48.460 well that sucks I want things to get

00:42:50.640 better yeah it is it really is

00:42:53.880 interesting because I mean I I'm always

00:42:55.580 tempted to take the step further back

00:42:58.540 and say that okay our default reactions

00:43:02.580 to these parameters are very likely wrong

00:43:06.160 and we could we should be able to

00:43:07.820 subsume even those with a a wider view

00:43:11.600 still which corrects for them so I mean

00:43:14.160 like once you understand the asymmetry

00:43:16.820 between loss and gain and that it's not

00:43:19.260 strictly rational that you should you

00:43:20.720 should care about $100 exactly $100

00:43:23.560 worth right and it shouldn't matter

00:43:25.760 whether it's going into your wallet or

00:43:27.220 coming out of your wallet yeah then you

00:43:29.400 should be able to perform that correction

00:43:32.320 for yourself and even I mean in certain

00:43:35.120 cases uncouple what you deem to be good

00:43:38.540 from even even if you can't change your

00:43:42.340 moment-to-moment experience of it or

00:43:44.180 even the way you feel when making a

00:43:47.880 retrospective account you still should be

00:43:50.840 able to perform some kind of course

00:43:52.340 correction here and the only place in my

00:43:54.260 life I'm trying to figure out where this

00:43:55.660 I've actually applied this and the only

00:43:58.020 place that's coming to mind is on the

00:43:59.920 topic of altruism and philanthropy this

00:44:03.380 is I don't know if you've heard any of my

00:44:04.520 conversations with the philosopher Will

00:44:06.520 McCaskill who's one of the the young

00:44:09.380 fathers of the effective altruism movement

00:44:12.300 and so you know famously what they've done

00:44:15.020 is they've they've worked to uncouple judgments

00:44:18.400 of the most efficacious use of resources

00:44:22.360 from the way any given use of resources

00:44:25.500 makes us feel right so there are causes to

00:44:28.280 which you could give your money which give

00:44:30.580 you immediate good feels they have you know

00:44:32.700 really compelling stories and nice graphic

00:44:35.300 design on their brochures and sometimes it's

00:44:38.440 a cause that shouldn't even exist right it's

00:44:40.960 just a completely misconceived charity that's

00:44:44.180 not not only not doing the good it thinks

00:44:46.400 it's doing it's actively doing harm in the

00:44:48.400 world and then you have far less sexy causes

00:44:52.560 to which you could give money which you can

00:44:54.720 never feel quite as good about because

00:44:56.520 there's just no way to tell a super

00:44:59.120 compelling story about them but when you

00:45:01.080 actually do the analysis they're super

00:45:03.580 efficient ways of mitigating human suffering

00:45:06.000 and long-term risk and so it's just you know I've

00:45:09.320 just made having thought about it enough

00:45:11.060 talked about it enough and wanting to

00:45:13.800 idiot proof this part of my life I've just

00:45:16.220 decided okay doing good actually doing good

00:45:20.200 is fully divorceable from how I feel while

00:45:24.380 doing that good and I want to get as many

00:45:26.840 good feels as I can out of it but if in the

00:45:30.740 end the project can't be made salient enough

00:45:32.980 for us to give me the feeling of heroism I

00:45:35.500 would feel if I you know ran into a burning

00:45:37.200 building and saved a little kid well then

00:45:39.700 so be it I'll still priority you know in

00:45:42.040 terms of resources I'll prioritize the

00:45:44.040 the non-sexy efficacious thing because in

00:45:46.780 the end it just matters how much suffering

00:45:49.100 you're you're in fact mitigating no I mean

00:45:51.840 as you know and this is you're you're you know

00:45:54.680 you're talking Catholicism to the Pope my

00:45:56.680 my my anti-empathy book exactly turns on

00:46:00.120 exactly that point that that are feeling

00:46:02.380 we've we've talked about this many times I

00:46:04.360 think we're very much on the same page which

00:46:06.440 is what makes us happy satisfied makes us

00:46:09.060 feel like good people is often quite

00:46:11.340 divorced from actually what makes a

00:46:12.920 difference Peter Singer has a great

00:46:15.280 example of this he says that often people

00:46:17.360 like to give to many many charities small

00:46:20.220 amounts sometimes so small amounts that

00:46:22.820 processing the checks you know cause the

00:46:24.800 charity lose money they've become a burden to

00:46:26.640 those charities that's that's right and and

00:46:29.380 for each one anything oh my gosh I'm saving

00:46:31.120 the whales oh wow helping Africans and you

00:46:34.120 get a little you know an example is like

00:46:35.940 going through a tasty buffet

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - November 02, 2021

#266 — The Limits of Pleasure

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