Making Sense - Sam Harris - #279 — The Rules of the Stage

For better or worse, here's our conversation about Will smith, Chris Rock, and all things related to the ethics and psychological weirdness of that moment. As always, as always, it's great to talk to Ricky Gervais. If you want more of us, you can find us at Absolutely Mental, where we have now three seasons of that podcast, and where you can download the Absolutely Mental app where this conversation can be heard in its entirety for free. Also, if you're a subscriber to Making Sense, you will now hear the full conversation. If you're not a subscriber, you'll need to subscribe to the Making Sense app, where you'll get access to the entire episode for free! To become a supporter of the podcast, become a patron of Making Sense by becoming a patron patron, and you'll receive access to all the latest episodes for as little as $1 a month. We don't run ads on the podcast and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our listeners, and therefore, it s made possible, because of the support, we re making possible, we enjoy what we're doing here, we're making sense. So if you enjoy what you're doing, please consider becoming one of our patrons, become one. And if you don't, you won't want to miss out on the making sense podcast! And as always... -Sam and Rachael You can find more information about the absolutely mental app: here. The absolutely mental The Absolutely Mental Health Mental Health Podcast by clicking here and . Sam We'll be looking forward to hearing from you! The absolute mental health and mental health by , and we'll be supporting you in the Making sense Podcast in the coming episodes of the Absolutely mental Podcast by , and so much more! -Ricky Timestamps: This episode: -The Absolutely Mental Podcast - Here's an episode of The Making Sense App? - - This is an episode that we were very slow to release due to events outside of our control, we've created an app for the podcast which is currently available on ios only and it's now in the App Store - here's the app - the app store - and it s now in app store in the app that got delayed, except that's now

00:00:00.000 welcome to the making sense podcast this is sam harris just a note to say that if you're hearing

00:00:12.660 this you are not currently on our subscriber feed and will only be hearing the first part

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00:00:39.000 okay this is an episode that we were very slow to release due to events outside of our control

00:00:53.800 we've created an app for the absolutely mental podcast which is currently available on ios only

00:01:01.260 and it's now in the app store except that got delayed because strangely the powers that be at

00:01:08.360 apple thought that we were impersonating sam harris and ricky gervais and stealing the intellectual

00:01:15.240 property of those esteemed gentlemen so it took some time to actually get the app situated and

00:01:23.340 that's why it took so long to release this conversation where and i get ricky's reaction

00:01:28.640 to the infamous oscar slap obviously we're a little late to the party here but i think the conversation

00:01:36.060 has aged well and it was great to get ricky's take on all this he was actually trending on twitter

00:01:42.980 immediately after the event itself he seemed to be the third person on earth people most wanted to

00:01:50.280 hear from at that moment and i don't believe he has said anything at length since so for better or worse

00:01:56.780 here's our conversation about will smith chris rock and all things related to the ethics and psychological

00:02:04.400 weirdness of that moment as always it's great to talk to ricky if you want more of us you can find us

00:02:11.220 at absolutely mental.com where we have now three seasons of that podcast also if you're on ios you

00:02:18.680 can download the absolutely mental app where this conversation can be heard in its entirety for free

00:02:26.340 and also if you're a subscriber to making sense you will now hear the full conversation enjoy

00:02:41.220 hey how you doing uh yeah good oh well i mean if you really want to know it it it it take a while

00:02:53.560 give me the first pass i'll give you the minor one the minor one on my side which i think we've talked 0.97

00:03:00.400 about but this will show you what a a hard-headed fool you're collaborating with i think i've discovered 0.91

00:03:06.060 for the hundredth time that red wine is not good for me and this is the way i do science i perform 0.94

00:03:12.780 this experiment 99 times and doubt it yeah i can't so i'm dealing with that i i don't know what it is

00:03:20.180 but it's just you know i understand what alcohol does to me i understand how to avoid a hangover but

00:03:25.220 red wine gives me a headache reliably that's how i drink now i drink as much as i can but avoiding the

00:03:32.200 hangover i i know i know my limit i i tried to start drinking less in the lockdown so i thought

00:03:37.980 i just have two glasses of wine a night right but all that happened was the glasses got bigger

00:03:44.340 it was like it's like some sort of game

00:03:48.360 yeah you get you have to talk to the bartender yeah your right hand who's the bartender needs to

00:03:56.420 needs to be in on the secret i will never go out i i think i'll go out about once every two months

00:04:01.180 now i didn't go out at all in lockdown obviously so that was some yeah drinking it drinking at home

00:04:05.460 watching netflix but yeah i it's also i'm older now it's like you can't do the things like even

00:04:13.660 tennis now i play tennis every week and i can't walk for 24 hours afterwards right i wake up and it

00:04:20.120 feels like i've been in a car crash like i i do i'm doing warm-ups gigs and um you don't notice it

00:04:27.300 like if i do two in a row again the the second it's like what have i done it the adrenaline and

00:04:34.700 that you don't notice at the time it's just like everything everything has a bigger effect now i've

00:04:40.380 got like i've got shin splints in my one shin that i've got just got to stop running but i don't stop

00:04:47.000 doing it that's the thing i think i don't stop doing what's bad for me because why should i just

00:04:52.920 because i can't walk the next day that's no reason not to play tennis the day before

00:04:57.680 yeah so uh just getting worse and worse really isn't it yeah well you're five years ahead of me

00:05:04.840 i think but uh the view from here is already bad i can't wait i can't wait until you're like this

00:05:11.400 yeah yeah also you get heavier as well you just you just creep up you'll just stop weighing myself

00:05:19.040 because it's like just every just bad news put on a pound right well i don't know it's metabolism

00:05:24.260 and refute or you know you work out less because it aches it's all muscle you're putting on a pound

00:05:29.800 of muscle every month yeah well that's what well that right i had the idea right that was my latest

00:05:35.960 way to beat the system i i read that you know um muscle weighs more than fat but you burn more

00:05:43.580 calories at rest yeah so i thought i'll just work out so i just got fat and muscly

00:05:48.020 so at least you're strong if you're going to be fat i might as well be strong yeah yeah that's

00:05:56.260 another thing you're not as strong you ache more you you know your your tendons are are not as good

00:06:01.320 you do like if i do squats now i think i'm not going to be able to get up after this it's like

00:06:08.660 you you lose your nerve as well everything just i don't know why it happens it just does though you

00:06:13.920 just feel you just feel weaker and it is i'd say it's in the last two years i thought of 58 i don't

00:06:21.340 like to hear that 58 yeah i know yeah but 60 is like no that's it that's it i do have the solution

00:06:29.780 for you the near-term solution you can do your squats as long as you're just picking up cases of

00:06:34.300 wine yeah exactly with that i i do count things that as exercise now if i have to run up and down

00:06:38.800 the stairs i think that's you've done it for the day yeah yeah but i think you've got i think you've

00:06:45.260 got a you know a certain amount of you know heartbeats and breaths and steps in you and so

00:06:51.420 as you do more exercise i think it's three billion wear out i think it is i forget i think the number is

00:06:57.360 three billion heartbeats something like that yeah really well that's good because my resting heart rate

00:07:02.540 is really low it's about 58 to 60 yeah so yeah no rush if you work out it goes up your clock's

00:07:11.360 ticking down much much faster so you know anyway yeah so uh yeah i'm all right thanks for asking

00:07:18.640 okay so um we have something to talk about and i think we're both uh a little sheepish about talking

00:07:26.880 about it there's a bandwagon that we don't want to jump on yeah but in reality i think uh you of all

00:07:33.340 people can be forgiven for talking about this at any point and the comments will age well because um

00:07:40.600 honestly you were the from from the looks of my twitter feed you were virtually the the third person on

00:07:47.060 earth people were thinking about when this episode happened so i'm referring to the the famous oscar

00:07:53.880 slap yeah delivered by will smith to chris rock and now we're talking you know five days six days

00:08:00.940 later yeah so let's let's just uh take a pass i woke up that monday morning 7 30 and i had the odd

00:08:08.880 email and message and dm from uh friends and colleagues in america going you know things like

00:08:16.420 what the fuck i feel so sorry for chris what would you have done that's disgusting i went what i don't 0.97

00:08:21.400 know i didn't know what they were so i put it together and i thought oh chris rock went oh chris 0.98

00:08:27.500 rock what's that then a will smith oscar oscars right so i googled it and you know immediately

00:08:33.620 i watched the i watched the clip yeah and uh can you recapture your immediate reaction i was angry

00:08:42.500 i thought no one no one should hit someone for you know hearing someone they don't like and

00:08:48.720 particularly you know this wasn't this wasn't a bar this wasn't a hockey field you know it it's it was

00:08:55.620 it was two men in tuxedos it was strange and it was it was shocking and uh obviously

00:09:02.120 initially it looked it looked like the world agreed with me that this shouldn't have happened

00:09:09.060 and he shouldn't have done it and i and i i stand by that and that's my that's my first

00:09:12.800 and last assessment of it he shouldn't have done it you you know but i also saw there were people

00:09:18.960 saying well chris rock deserved it you know and i think well what what do you mean he deserved it

00:09:23.300 and you know they had lots of they had lots of reasons that he deserved it you know the the joke

00:09:29.320 was offensive he shouldn't say that about his wife and all the you know all the not valid reasons in my

00:09:35.280 my book but you know i could see that it wasn't a slam dunk there were some people that thought

00:09:41.560 that um you know will smith was in the right and uh i i never did and i still don't even though i think

00:09:49.500 uh i i'm i feel a bit sorry for him to some extent because we don't know what he's going through but

00:09:56.000 we'll get to that but i i yeah i was i was sort of outraged but i didn't want to join in

00:10:01.620 i didn't i didn't want to add my voice everyone was there but then i then i saw i was trending yeah

00:10:07.660 yeah it was suddenly all about me and and the the everyone was saying you know what what would

00:10:14.440 ricky gervais have done or oh my god that's nothing to what ricky gervais said or yeah oh my god

00:10:19.620 yeah exactly and i i resisted it and and we spoke and i didn't really want to you know do anything and

00:10:26.840 i just thought you know it's not it's not my thing and uh i actually had a a new material night

00:10:33.240 the next night and you when something happens that's so big you have to address it straight away

00:10:40.220 so they stop thinking about it so they stop thinking about is he going to mention it so i went out there

00:10:45.900 and i went i haven't got any will smith material and they laughed that big laugh of recognition he said

00:10:52.080 something right and uh and i said i said it was ridiculous i trended i was the number one trend

00:10:58.660 nothing to do with me i wasn't even there and i said um people saying oh what would have happened

00:11:03.900 if ricky gervais had been doing it i said well nothing would have happened because i wouldn't

00:11:08.120 have made a joke about his wife's hair i'd have made a joke about a boyfriend

00:11:12.700 and that was the big laugh and that was the end of it right and i got on with it it was great

00:11:18.460 but there was someone in from the press on a new material night that they tweeted that and then

00:11:25.660 i trended again right i trended again with that quote so that's why that's why i people don't

00:11:34.900 realize this but i desperately tried to keep my mouth shut when it's not to do with me but you get sort

00:11:40.780 of you get drawn in and suddenly now i've got i've got to mention it but uh yeah um i i i was worried

00:11:50.520 that i was worried about our principle i thought it was bad on principle i thought chris rock didn't

00:11:55.580 deserve it and no one does and and certainly not with that joke because i didn't find the joke yeah

00:12:00.320 i don't even it was not how anyone could find that offensive you know one people saying it's about

00:12:06.680 a medical condition well uh her medical condition was nothing to do with the joke the the joke was 0.83

00:12:11.460 her appearance and i don't think chris rock even knew she suffers from alopecia or you know any 1.00

00:12:17.640 medical condition i think he he's you know he saw uh well there's so many let's just linger on let's

00:12:23.480 take this piece by piece because there's so many layers to this so just that point about the nature of

00:12:27.660 the joke yes you know whether he knew or not whether he knew or not the source of her baldness

00:12:33.700 that's probably relevant to his intentions but even if he knew it's not a hard-hitting joke because

00:12:42.040 of the basic reality of her appearance which is one she's a beautiful woman who happens to look 1.00

00:12:48.980 beautiful bald you know whatever she thinks and the comparison to demi moore and gi jane was not an

00:12:56.420 unflattering one because you know famously she looked great bald too and she was super fit and she's this 0.99

00:13:01.600 awesome first woman navy seal and right so it's like it's not it's not a comparison that is denigrating

00:13:07.540 her no i didn't think it was an insult i didn't think he was going for it i didn't think he was

00:13:11.800 trying to embarrass her there was nothing nasty about it there's nothing unflattering about it

00:13:16.220 it was it was a really tame you know you could you could say that to a kid at a barbecue oh you look

00:13:24.000 like gi jane you know there was no there was no nothing to embarrass her yeah you know and then

00:13:30.040 people were bringing up you know like history or he's mentioned her before again which i think is

00:13:34.540 is is irrelevant unless it's unless it's you know because i didn't know that i didn't know he'd

00:13:39.980 mentioned her before or that they were friends i don't know any of that true if you look at it if

00:13:44.980 you look at the cut in the cold light of day that joke that there was there was no need for outrage

00:13:50.360 and will smith laughed yeah he laughed that was he laughed yeah a polite laugh yeah yeah yeah i get

00:13:57.300 it oh yeah i look like you're yeah funny yeah whatever there was no you know and then she rolled her eyes 0.99

00:14:03.180 and uh he obviously thought he had to do something and and you know i'm obviously uh i'm not a psychologist

00:14:10.600 or a body language expert but it seemed to me like he'd he he started strolling up there and he

00:14:18.120 didn't know what he was going to do i think he regretted it almost immediately thinking oh i've got

00:14:22.500 to do something now and chris rock thinking what's he going to do you know you know he could have run

00:14:28.000 away and made a joke or begged you know had a laugh but because he did nothing and stood there

00:14:32.560 now will smith's got oh no i've got to do something right and i think if you look at it will smith

00:14:38.260 doesn't want to hit him he doesn't want to hit him hard he sort of leans back so he nearly misses

00:14:43.460 and just touches his chin well that's what i initially found quite confusing because and that's

00:14:48.100 why and the thing that most interests me here is to kind of put ourselves in the room because the room

00:14:53.180 was powerfully confused and the room was an alternate universe i mean the behavior of the people

00:14:58.280 in the room is genuinely startling to me so i want to talk about the what people you know thought

00:15:04.300 they saw and and how they processed all that but just watching on tv or on on the computer i saw

00:15:10.780 it looked like he barely made contact given chris rock's reaction i mean if he had slapped him

00:15:17.360 with any force given the way chris was standing he would have he would have had to have taken a major

00:15:22.340 step back or fallen back or i mean a slap delivered delivered hard could have just knocked him flat right

00:15:29.560 and well that's the other thing about it whether whatever the the slap was again my initial thought

00:15:35.340 was this was a six foot three man hitting a guy i think he weighs probably about 140 pounds chris rock

00:15:42.380 yeah he's yeah he's slight he's a tiny guy that's a bad look optically yeah yeah it didn't it it didn't

00:15:50.080 look fair it looked like bullying whatever you think jokes are and what words are they're not bullying

00:15:56.600 compared to you know physical fire that that really started annoying me when people started

00:16:01.520 saying no but words are actual violence no they're not no they're not but but given that saying that

00:16:06.660 given how tenuous the slap was i think people in the room could be forgiven up until that moment for

00:16:14.060 thinking oh this must be a bit they've worked out i thought it was yeah i i i knew although i'd seen

00:16:21.400 the controversy before i saw the thing and i still had to watch it a few times thinking is it a bit 0.72

00:16:25.920 and then chris rock said will smith just slap the shit out of me i thought this isn't a bit 0.89

00:16:31.680 yeah but even there i could the only place it became crystal clear i would say to the people in 0.93

00:16:36.360 the room that it wasn't a bit was when he got back to his seat and yelled yeah keep my wife's name 0.99

00:16:42.300 out of your fucking mouth and i even the second like it wasn't it took the second time for the 0.99

00:16:46.460 reality to don't i think yeah that looked like a man who was adrenalized that looked like a man 1.00

00:16:53.800 who's enjoying being a warrior he enjoyed the violence because he felt that he'd he'd sort of

00:17:01.040 won and he was angry and he was frustrated and he i think he knew he shouldn't have done it

00:17:05.540 and i i think that what made me do that why did i do that what have i done well that that i i would

00:17:12.080 question that because his behavior for the rest of the night did not seem like somebody who was who

00:17:17.080 whose conscience was settling especially hard no because he'd got away with it he yeah oh yeah but he

00:17:22.500 thought he'd got away with it don't forget a few minutes later he just won oscar it was without

00:17:27.380 that slap this was the greatest night of his life this was the greatest night of his career he couldn't

00:17:33.220 believe it so all that other stuff it was still without the slap this was amazing of course and they

00:17:41.220 had all that adrenaline and he's thinking oh it's okay i've won an oscar it's okay it's like when a kid

00:17:47.700 thinks oh i didn't get caught they didn't see me they didn't i'm i've got away with the sweets they

00:17:53.160 didn't see me it was like that sort of feeling he must have thought and he was dancing and is is you

00:17:59.500 know i think he thought he'd done well i think he thought he was chivalrous i think he i think he

00:18:06.840 thinks his wife and family were proud of him so it's like he got some sort of affirmation and reward

00:18:15.220 you slap a man on stage that's never happened before i've never seen anything like it as i say

00:18:19.820 it happens in bars around the world every night and it happens in sport and it happens in the

00:18:24.940 playground but it doesn't happen on the the greatest entertainment like arguably in you know

00:18:31.040 in the world in tuxedos that's that's it was weird yeah and in particular i mean let's maybe hit

00:18:37.500 this point now because at minimum we need to get it out of the way i mean the norm that was violated

00:18:43.600 here was crystal clear i mean the the role of a comedian in that context is understood right and

00:18:52.180 like i mean and you have occupied this role that precise role many many times at award shows you know

00:18:57.620 with much more of a lacerating effect on the people in the audience and you are the court jester

00:19:04.160 who's given full license to roast the people in the audience yeah but also more than that chris rock

00:19:12.200 isn't just a presenter or an actor going up there and saying stuff he's a comedian right and this is

00:19:19.360 hard to explain but when you're on stage that's your home right that is that is not that's a

00:19:26.360 psychological and a physical power if someone gets on the seat and gets on your stage that's a massive

00:19:31.180 thing that's a massive effect that's like someone's just let himself into your house yeah and he must

00:19:36.740 have thought oh my god but i can't act like i do when i'm on stage so i haven't got the power and

00:19:44.200 there's no doubt that in that room will smith had the power and he'd stepped on the stage he was alpha

00:19:49.800 he was he was he was not only a bigger man but he'd he'd broken down all those barriers he'd broken

00:19:57.140 down all those you know unwritten laws he should not have stepped on that stage without permission

00:20:03.180 so chris rock his world was he didn't know i mean he did amazing yeah i can't believe i mean he fluffed

00:20:10.400 his line a little bit he didn't know what was going on and i think that i saw a thing where he said that

00:20:16.300 he was i think he was bullied and you know he was in therapy for it so this wasn't this wasn't good for

00:20:23.220 him to go through that you know that i think it it really it i mean i can't imagine it maybe we'll come

00:20:30.120 back to that i mean i think he handled himself totally impeccably despite me yeah him getting

00:20:35.300 flustered is totally understandable and he was barely flustered given the situation but and this

00:20:41.800 is what i do want to get to i think he was totally betrayed by the academy and the room really i mean

00:20:51.000 it was just amazing to me that that just the way the rest of the event unfolded what should have

00:20:57.040 happened i agree but but don't forget those people were a bit in shock and they wanted to go

00:21:02.240 to go back to normal right it's like they were in slight denial and i i think they had some sort of

00:21:08.660 deferred responsibility like that happened we don't know what to do oh this is normal again will smith's

00:21:14.280 winning an award and he's crying it's all normal everyone there's nothing to see here it's okay

00:21:19.220 the world is not out of joint yeah yeah i know yeah so you know and and i don't know what happened

00:21:27.540 i'd heard i've i've heard uh two opposing reports that the first was they asked him to leave and then

00:21:33.880 people said that isn't true they didn't ask him to leave in fact i i heard the producer i said asked him

00:21:40.600 to stay although i i heard a quote from the producer saying that that slat he said he poured concrete

00:21:46.500 on the room and i think that's a lovely way of putting it because they must have been just

00:21:51.020 it must have been weird it must have been so strange because you know again let's get it in

00:21:57.740 context it got it it didn't punch him he didn't kick him he didn't stab him he didn't headbutt him

00:22:02.960 he didn't do anything that would be traditionally you know a terrible assault of violence but i tell you

00:22:10.400 getting a slap in front of everyone from a bigger man it it is violence let me just linger on that

00:22:18.060 point for a second because it does matter what he attempted to do i mean if he because yes a slap

00:22:24.020 of any degree is violence and it's designed to obviously assert your power over someone and

00:22:29.840 humiliate them and it is bullying like all of it it's all the ugliness is contained even in the

00:22:36.220 the mere grazing gesture there but if he tried to slap him hard and he just failed because chris

00:22:43.960 moved to the degree he did it could have been a very different outcome because you can knock someone

00:22:49.920 senseless with a yeah and i don't and i genuinely think that he didn't want to hurt him i don't think

00:22:56.340 he even wanted to slap him i think he regretted it walking up there but he wanted to look like he 0.96

00:23:02.440 wanted to look like john wayne right you know he wanted to you know no one no one insults my woman 0.91

00:23:08.400 i i can be a hero here and i you know i i think he felt some sort of weird pressure to do it and

00:23:16.440 he was in two minds and i don't think he is that guy i don't think i don't think he's a a violent

00:23:22.800 person who wants to you know i think it was like he wanted to be like that for a minute

00:23:28.140 to impress someone and i think just i think it must have felt really weird for him but about the

00:23:35.460 slap right i was talking to a security guard once and um i don't know if it's true for everyone but

00:23:42.320 he said oh you know you know if it goes to it a slap is really good because it shocks them and he

00:23:48.500 said um it looks good in it looks good in court right right right you don't you don't break your

00:23:54.680 hand as one often does yeah yeah punching someone in the head and he said most people don't press

00:23:59.820 charges because they're embarrassed to say i was slapped by a man oh wow so there is a there is a

00:24:05.600 sort of this like you know machismo using you know using that embarrassment and that dominance and

00:24:14.400 but um but the reality the reality is i mean if you slap them on the ear you know you break their

00:24:19.700 eardrum with good contact and you will completely lay them out right i mean oh if you if you you can

00:24:24.700 of course you can knock someone out you can really hurt someone you can break their jaw you can do it

00:24:28.680 but there is absolutely no way he wanted to do that and he showed it that slap wouldn't have hurt

00:24:35.980 but that's irrelevant he wanted it to look like a slap he wanted to shut up chris rock he wanted to

00:24:42.440 look like a hero he wanted it to look like he had dominated and shut someone up and he wanted it to

00:24:49.020 be justified and to some people it was and some people it still is yeah that's so many conspiracy

00:24:54.360 theories that you know that they they won't back down they think that but now it's been going on a

00:24:59.260 week and i mean i don't i don't know how you know much longer to do or what what is is punishment is or

00:25:06.880 will be right well so let's just let's just nail down the objective fact that you know many people

00:25:12.540 gave voice to and i think kathy griffin might have put it in a tweet that that was uh most visible but

00:25:19.840 she said something like you know oh great now every comedian has to wonder whether someone wants

00:25:26.760 to emulate will smith and jump up on stage it's like our job just got more dangerous yeah and i do

00:25:32.680 think that is whatever the extenuating circumstances whatever you think about will smith and whatever the

00:25:39.920 cause of this whether or the nature of chris rock's joke that norm violation yeah it's just bad

00:25:46.380 right yeah if if there isn't some sort of you know comeuppance or agreed distaste then it would be

00:25:54.960 dangerous and and it's more dangerous because even though it would be very rare if a man with everything

00:26:01.420 to lose is willing to do it what's people with nothing to lose exactly willing to do you know people want

00:26:07.780 to get famous for anything people do anything before so for this week will smith is the most

00:26:15.440 famous man in the world this week he has been the most famous man in the world and some people will

00:26:20.720 go well i can do that that's exactly right yeah that's exactly right an analogous situation which

00:26:25.860 is different but it reveals the same problem here you know i don't know if you've seen that i don't

00:26:31.460 i think this has happened internationally but there was this group of people that were hitting famous

00:26:38.180 people they didn't like with pies like you like just fake pie like shaving cream in a pie yeah they

00:26:43.260 did it here with milk they threw milk over oh that's right that's right yeah so that i think we may

00:26:49.620 have maybe even spoken about this at one point but people who don't really think it through think that

00:26:54.980 behavior is totally innocuous it's just a social protest you're just kind of embarrassing the person

00:26:59.660 it's just shaving cream or milk what's the problem yeah but the real problem is it's a mock assassination

00:27:05.480 and you're you're showing the the real lunatics of the world just how easy it is to go up and hit

00:27:12.240 bill gates or boris johnson or somebody in the face even when they have security around them right so it's

00:27:17.580 a bad meme to be putting out there and it makes the lives of famous controversial people just yeah

00:27:24.400 more dangerous i hadn't even thought of the the yeah the the extreme the version of that but even

00:27:31.260 without that i think it's still in the front oh yeah i think that is like a slap you know it it's done

00:27:36.960 it's done something to you it's embarrassing you've you've you've covered in something you might have

00:27:43.740 ruined your clothes you're stuck in it it really is inconvenience whether you whether they've got a

00:27:49.300 loophole around violence you know and um uh one of our famous politicians years ago john prescott he

00:27:57.200 was a a northern sort of working class guy in the labor right and he was walking along and someone

00:28:02.300 egged him threw an egg at him and he just turned around and punched him straight in the face and and

00:28:07.900 i like that because because just because the let the egg leaves your hand it gets him in the eye

00:28:16.020 doesn't mean it's not it's not an extension of your fist yeah no exactly and i just like i talked about

00:28:22.500 this i think with you before that that dumb practical joke in school where they put a drawing

00:28:27.880 pin attack on your chair and if you sat on it they'd laugh because you did it i go no that doesn't

00:28:32.800 count i did no no no you haven't got to solve yourself of responsibility because i sat on a

00:28:40.820 a sharp object that you put there for me to sit on that's still your fault so uh you know i i think

00:28:50.300 you can you can play games all you like and try and get round you know it's not as bad as a punch or

00:28:56.220 whatever but you can't do that you can't you can't do that you know if that was you know pain

00:29:03.620 on someone's house they'd be done for you know criminal damage vandalism okay so let's jigger 1.00

00:29:09.860 some of the um variables here if will smith had not been will smith if he had been far less famous

00:29:16.500 or just some anonymous creature who in a tuxedo yeah the outcome would have been obviously different

00:29:24.880 right i mean he's well i assume he wouldn't have made it to the stage if he was just if he was a

00:29:28.900 seat filler right who looked like he was walking on stage and people looking at their notes going

00:29:33.680 what's this this isn't in the script and and mr up went oh i don't i don't think he'd have made it

00:29:40.560 well what one would hope i'm not so sure but uh one would hope but given that it was will smith

00:29:45.640 and given that he's that famous and people have so many positive associations with him that's what

00:29:52.120 made it so difficult to process right the moment you dial down his fame sufficiently then it's just

00:29:58.820 a straight up illegal act in plain view of millions of people and this is completely anathema yeah you

00:30:07.560 know this the guy is immediately arrested uh and has legal problems yeah but that's a very good point

00:30:15.000 as well because i think that's what allowed him to do it as well because because it was mill smith i

00:30:21.860 bet even producers thought this is going to be funny right he's gonna he's gonna tease him or they've

00:30:28.160 done a bit they've worked out in the car park they're we're not in on this or or what's he gonna do

00:30:33.740 it's all right it's will smith yeah you know he's not gonna it's will smith what could go wrong yeah

00:30:38.780 i know exactly you know and then then he slaps him and walks away and they're going ah okay he did

00:30:47.400 do something it's too late he's gone back to his chair okay chris rocks covering good ah now he's

00:30:54.220 swearing oh he's swearing again now now it's now it's so i mean i mean i let i let them off i let all

00:31:04.740 the organizers off yeah for not acting quickly enough up to that point then i think then we don't

00:31:11.960 know then what happens but even there he wins an award he wins he wins an oscar well okay so the place

00:31:18.160 where it goes completely off the rails for me just tonally and just existentially is him winning the

00:31:28.020 award the contents and spin of his speech right i didn't watch it because i i didn't want to watch

00:31:35.380 it i because i i didn't i i didn't like the fact that he was winning an award and he was getting a

00:31:41.380 standing ovation so i didn't watch it i'm afraid i i saw him crying i saw a clip of it and so what

00:31:46.440 did he say how long was it was it like a it's uh i think it's five or six minutes god well i mean

00:31:53.000 the first thing i want to say is that i think it's appropriate to view i mean again i don't i don't

00:32:00.160 know all the details of will smith's life and you know what has come before this and i mean i i i just

00:32:07.840 heard rumors of how complicated his relationship is with his wife and how colorful that has all been

00:32:14.200 yeah but i think when you look at how much he had to lose right and what he decided to do

00:32:22.980 in front of tens of millions of people i think it's appropriate to view that whole episode as a

00:32:28.760 kind of mental health crisis right like that well i i i when i saw i this i saw that i saw the clip i

00:32:35.140 saw of him crying and making it about the guy he played was the was the william sister's dad right i

00:32:44.080 haven't seen the film either yeah but didn't he make it about sort of protecting family yeah try and

00:32:48.940 make what he just did that's all i saw and he made it all about about love that he wants to be

00:32:54.220 like a vessel of love and he's a river to his people and it was so the text of it i mean he was

00:33:00.140 obviously winging it in the moment because he was connecting it to what had just happened but

00:33:04.080 the broad strokes was that he apologized to everyone on earth apart from chris rock and he

00:33:10.500 cast it all in terms of he's a protector of women yeah and you know he's a river to his people

00:33:17.160 and it was the most self-aggrandizing delusional well he couldn't apologize because that would

00:33:22.080 ruin it because then he'd have to say he did something wrong but it was just you would think

00:33:25.840 he was gandhi you know he was gandhi who just had to be tough gandhi that one time right but that's

00:33:31.280 like a superhero says sorry you had to see that yeah yeah it's like he wasn't apologizing for the

00:33:37.160 violence he was going yeah it's uh it's all in a day's work uh i'm used to it that might be a shock

00:33:43.080 to you but not to me and he and he just takes off he just takes off and flies away

00:33:47.800 yeah no i i know it was all about but it did again look it did look of a piece with a kind of

00:33:56.120 mental health crisis you know so i don't want to i guess that could be that's totally exculpatory on

00:34:02.060 some level just to say he's the guy's having a breakdown cut him some slack but i did sort of view

00:34:06.980 it that way because the question is do you locate the problem purely in his brain or do you locate it

00:34:13.800 in a kind of cultural confusion surrounding him because there is there's definitely some confusion

00:34:19.560 because i mean his you know his son tweeted out you know that's the way we do it you know just like

00:34:23.300 nothing but pride and his dad so that there's a kind of a there's a part of the culture that just

00:34:27.620 didn't get how wrong the behavior was and is and that's a kind of delusion that if you share it is

00:34:35.240 just morally confusing the guy was okay just in the study

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - April 18, 2022

#279 — The Rules of the Stage

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