Making Sense - Sam Harris - #293 — What I Really Think About Trump and Media Bias

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast, this is Sam Harris.

00:00:25.320 Okay, well, I seem to have caught a case of Twitter cancer last week, and it was probably

00:00:34.640 Facebook and Instagram cancer, too, but I don't look at those platforms.

00:00:40.680 Anyway, I was on someone else's podcast and said some things about Trump and Biden, and

00:00:47.840 those statements produced a fair amount of outrage in a very large group of people.

00:00:52.540 Well, so I think there are a few points I should clarify.

00:00:58.000 There's nothing of real substance to walk back, but the truth is I wasn't speaking very clearly

00:01:04.240 or systematically on that podcast, and in one place I actually misspoke.

00:01:10.760 And as a result, there seem to be a few significant misunderstandings that have gotten amplified.

00:01:16.740 I tried to clarify a few of these points on Twitter, knowing that I would be doing a little

00:01:20.760 more than spit in the wind, but I still think it was probably good to attempt this, and

00:01:26.960 to do it quickly, because several of the articles that got written about the episode noticed

00:01:32.040 those tweets, and so they didn't spread precisely those same misunderstandings.

00:01:37.280 Of course, some people noticed my effort to clarify things and rejected it.

00:01:42.500 At moments like this, I'm always reminded of Nietzsche's aphorism, that when you force people

00:01:46.980 to change their mind about you, they hold the effort you cost them very much against

00:01:51.980 you.

00:01:52.980 This really does seem to be true, and it's pretty maladaptive.

00:01:58.160 We tend to want to hold people to the worst possible interpretation of what they said, even

00:02:03.760 when it's belied by other things they said in context and continue to say.

00:02:08.320 Anyway, this happens on both the right and the left, politically.

00:02:13.220 And this is the problem with taking clips of audio or video out of context.

00:02:17.860 Of course, any clip is, by definition, out of context.

00:02:21.980 That's what a clip is.

00:02:24.060 But many are chosen for the ways they seem to make a point very clearly, when the editor

00:02:30.640 knows that the actual point being made is far more complicated, or even contradicted by something

00:02:37.260 else the person says a few seconds or minutes before or after the chosen clip.

00:02:42.840 For instance, many of you will remember that it became well-established on the left that

00:02:48.060 Trump referred to the white supremacists and neo-Nazis who rallied in Charlottesville as,

00:02:53.140 quote, very fine people.

00:02:55.140 There are very fine people on both sides.

00:02:57.960 You remember that?

00:02:59.520 That was something that Trump said in a clip from a press conference, where he was attempting

00:03:03.700 to address the aftermath of those terrible events.

00:03:07.260 Everyone from Biden on down insisted that he was talking about the neo-Nazis and other

00:03:13.300 obvious racists as, quote, very fine people.

00:03:16.960 And almost everyone on the left still insists that this was the case.

00:03:21.800 But if you watch the press conference, you will see that he wasn't doing that.

00:03:26.840 How can we know this?

00:03:28.400 Because he says so.

00:03:30.240 He literally says that he's not talking about the neo-Nazis and other racists.

00:03:35.320 However, in my experience, if you tell people who want to think the worst of Trump about

00:03:40.880 how misleading the clips from that press conference were, they are highly disinclined to believe

00:03:46.720 you.

00:03:47.600 And many of them come up with arguments for why they don't have to believe you.

00:03:51.380 They say things like, well, there was no one else there.

00:03:54.400 They were all neo-Nazis and racists.

00:03:56.520 So Trump saying that he wasn't talking about them doesn't hold water, because those were

00:04:01.540 the only people to talk about.

00:04:04.180 Now, even if that were true, and I highly doubt that it is, it's clear from his remarks that

00:04:10.520 Trump thought there were other people there, just ordinary people who were worried about

00:04:15.080 certain statues being taken down.

00:04:16.820 His remarks make no sense if he thought that every protester was a neo-Nazi.

00:04:23.100 Anyway, as most of you know, there are very few people who are more critical of Trump than

00:04:28.580 I am.

00:04:29.720 And I'm sure I will amply demonstrate that yet again in the next few minutes.

00:04:34.540 But I think it's important to be honest, even when attacking someone you know to be a

00:04:38.720 terrible human being.

00:04:39.700 And relying on clips is a great way to be misled, and to mislead others, about what people actually

00:04:47.380 think.

00:04:48.680 And many people over in Trumpistan are now doing that to me.

00:04:52.420 Again, I made this much easier than it should have been by speaking sloppily.

00:04:57.740 Which I hope it doesn't seem too self-serving to say, I don't do very much.

00:05:03.020 Even when I say something that seems quite extreme, I tend to be fairly precise in how I say it.

00:05:10.280 Consequently, I don't often find myself in the position of having to say that I misspoke.

00:05:14.840 It's true that people sometimes misunderstand or deliberately misrepresent what I actually

00:05:19.080 meant to say.

00:05:20.560 But that's a different problem.

00:05:22.560 Even when dealing with people's misunderstandings, or outright lies about what I've said, I'm

00:05:27.840 rarely in a position of saying, sorry, there was actually a word there that was out of place

00:05:33.020 and misleading.

00:05:34.840 Unfortunately, in the present case, there really is an offending word.

00:05:39.700 So I feel I need to offer some clarification.

00:05:43.160 Because I genuinely see the grounds for people's confusion based on that clip.

00:05:47.820 And because many people are now accusing me of believing things I don't believe.

00:05:51.720 And of supporting things I don't support.

00:05:53.680 And of generally being a hypocrite.

00:05:56.720 For instance, many people are saying that I used to be committed to truth and honesty.

00:06:01.200 I wrote a whole book about how bad it is to tell lies.

00:06:04.080 But now I'm in favor of lying, apparently.

00:06:06.600 And censorship.

00:06:07.380 And I'm actually open to destroying our democracy, too.

00:06:12.280 This is all bullshit.

00:06:14.940 So apologies in advance if you find this boring.

00:06:18.220 I actually find it an interesting experience to go through.

00:06:21.780 Being engulfed by a tsunami of hatred definitely gets your attention.

00:06:25.780 And you get to see who your friends are.

00:06:28.800 And who is almost your friend.

00:06:30.760 And who your former friends were always in the process of becoming.

00:06:34.200 And you get to see otherwise smart and decent people deranged

00:06:37.660 by rather sickening political and financial incentives.

00:06:40.680 And you get to see the strengths and weaknesses of your own business model.

00:06:45.900 And of your own place in the world, really.

00:06:49.140 It's not an experience I recommend, exactly.

00:06:52.000 If you can avoid being burned as a digital witch, I suggest you avoid it.

00:06:56.840 But it really does have a silver lining.

00:06:59.500 If you've played your cards right.

00:07:02.020 First, I should probably play the clip that went viral.

00:07:04.700 Because this is what everyone is reacting to.

00:07:07.620 The context was a 90-minute podcast.

00:07:09.820 Where I said many things that make this clip much easier to understand.

00:07:14.680 However, as I said, I definitely created several problems for myself

00:07:18.040 by bumbling around a bit.

00:07:19.880 And genuinely misspeaking at one point.

00:07:23.280 And the fact that I actually misspoke will be very easy to demonstrate.

00:07:27.980 Because the word I used really does contradict

00:07:31.020 everything I said in the setup to the clip.

00:07:34.000 And it's contradicted by what I begin to say in the very next sentence.

00:07:37.020 But it's certainly my fault for using the wrong term.

00:07:41.240 Before I deal with the clip,

00:07:43.040 I want to emphasize again that I usually speak very precisely

00:07:47.180 even when I seem to be saying something extremely provocative.

00:07:51.480 For instance,

00:07:52.520 I've said on several occasions

00:07:54.220 that I think Donald Trump is a worse person

00:07:57.140 than Osama bin Laden.

00:07:58.960 Now, the statement is obviously meant to get your attention.

00:08:01.760 I get that it's surprising.

00:08:04.640 But it's not meant to be hyperbolic.

00:08:07.540 I can defend every word of a statement like that.

00:08:10.780 What I can't defend

00:08:11.720 are people's misunderstandings

00:08:14.100 and erroneous extrapolations

00:08:16.640 of a statement like that.

00:08:18.760 Perhaps I should just clarify that statement again.

00:08:21.260 Because it actually goes a long way

00:08:22.720 to explaining my view of Trump.

00:08:24.300 Why I think he's such a terrible person,

00:08:27.100 but not nearly as scary as some people think he is.

00:08:30.200 And not nearly as scary as many people think I think he is.

00:08:35.000 I think Osama bin Laden

00:08:36.360 was a more or less normal human being,

00:08:39.100 psychologically.

00:08:40.340 He was just living in the grip

00:08:41.760 of a dangerous and idiotic worldview.

00:08:45.000 The moral structure he imagined he was living under

00:08:48.000 and wanted to impose on the rest of the world,

00:08:51.460 given his beliefs,

00:08:52.260 was despicable.

00:08:54.420 So he created immense harm.

00:08:57.040 And it's very good that we killed him.

00:08:59.260 But within the framework of his odious beliefs,

00:09:02.160 he demonstrated many virtues.

00:09:04.900 He was a man who certainly seemed to be capable

00:09:06.620 of real self-sacrifice.

00:09:08.960 And he was committed to ideals

00:09:10.660 beyond his narrow self-interest.

00:09:13.460 He was, by all accounts,

00:09:14.640 personally quite courageous.

00:09:17.080 I don't claim to know that much about him.

00:09:19.380 But it wouldn't surprise me at all

00:09:21.320 if he was generally a person of real integrity

00:09:24.400 and generosity

00:09:25.700 and compassion

00:09:27.160 in his dealings with his fellow Muslims.

00:09:30.600 None of these things

00:09:32.020 can be said about Donald Trump.

00:09:35.080 Trump is, without question,

00:09:37.680 one of the least honest

00:09:38.960 and most malignantly selfish human beings

00:09:41.760 I have ever come across.

00:09:43.740 And the paradox here,

00:09:45.440 it's not really a paradox,

00:09:47.260 but it's what makes the point I'm making

00:09:48.780 confusing to many people.

00:09:51.040 The seeming paradox

00:09:52.060 is that if Trump were a better person,

00:09:55.320 he would be worse in many ways.

00:09:58.060 If he were brave

00:09:59.340 and self-sacrificing

00:10:00.940 and idealistic,

00:10:02.580 if he were capable of being

00:10:04.180 strongly committed to something

00:10:05.740 beyond his narrow self-interest,

00:10:08.080 he would be capable of creating

00:10:09.660 much greater harm in the world.

00:10:12.060 But he's not.

00:10:13.140 He is a child in a man's body.

00:10:16.800 He lies as freely as he breathes

00:10:19.460 and just as compulsively.

00:10:22.360 He can't even put the interests

00:10:24.340 of his children above his own,

00:10:26.920 much less commit himself to any ideal

00:10:28.580 that requires real self-sacrifice.

00:10:31.420 Unlike bin Laden,

00:10:33.100 it is patently obvious

00:10:34.800 that Trump isn't psychologically normal.

00:10:38.520 He really is missing something

00:10:40.320 that almost every other person

00:10:42.080 on Earth has.

00:10:44.080 He is an absolute black hole

00:10:46.360 of self-regard.

00:10:48.600 When I say that wherever you are on Earth,

00:10:50.920 you could probably walk a thousand miles

00:10:52.920 in any direction

00:10:53.820 and not meet a less admirable human being

00:10:57.500 than Trump,

00:10:59.060 I mean it

00:11:00.260 in the terms I just described.

00:11:03.200 The man is almost completely lacking

00:11:06.100 in personal virtue.

00:11:08.020 If he weren't funny,

00:11:08.920 and I admit he can be funny,

00:11:11.380 he might actually be

00:11:12.440 the least admirable person on Earth.

00:11:15.880 Now, some of this is just my opinion,

00:11:18.120 of course,

00:11:18.960 but much of it isn't.

00:11:21.160 To say that Trump lies incessantly

00:11:23.700 and with a velocity

00:11:25.500 almost never encountered

00:11:26.860 anywhere else in human life

00:11:28.560 is a fact.

00:11:30.460 It is demonstrable.

00:11:32.300 It is nearly self-evident

00:11:34.020 and has been for decades.

00:11:35.900 It is as true

00:11:37.780 and uncontroversial

00:11:39.060 as saying that he's around

00:11:40.840 six feet two inches tall.

00:11:43.020 I realize that when I say

00:11:44.420 this sort of thing,

00:11:45.840 it sounds like an expression

00:11:47.200 of personal hatred

00:11:48.220 and of my own political partisanship.

00:11:50.980 But it is neither of those things.

00:11:53.360 I don't hate Trump.

00:11:55.440 I hate the fact of him.

00:11:57.940 I hate the space he occupies

00:12:00.240 in our world.

00:12:00.900 I hate what he has done

00:12:02.860 to our politics.

00:12:04.640 Yes, I know his ascendance

00:12:05.840 politically is a symptom

00:12:06.860 of many underlying problems,

00:12:08.560 but he has also exacerbated

00:12:10.640 those problems massively.

00:12:13.200 Trump isn't the answer

00:12:14.380 to wokeness and leftist hysteria

00:12:16.640 because he has done more than anyone

00:12:18.320 to produce that hysteria.

00:12:20.680 If you want to see how crazy

00:12:21.560 the left can get,

00:12:22.900 just elect Trump

00:12:23.680 for a second term in 2024.

00:12:25.100 We have a real problem

00:12:27.840 of populist irrationality

00:12:29.600 and misinformation

00:12:30.980 and tribal lunacy

00:12:33.140 on both the left and the right.

00:12:36.260 Trump has made that problem

00:12:37.380 astronomically worse

00:12:38.780 on both the left and the right.

00:12:41.980 It's not about hating the man.

00:12:44.000 I hate the phenomenon.

00:12:46.160 I didn't hate Trump

00:12:47.080 when he was just a charlatan

00:12:48.200 on The Apprentice.

00:12:49.280 I ignored him.

00:12:51.400 And my criticism of Trump

00:12:52.860 isn't remotely partisan.

00:12:55.100 It isn't even political

00:12:56.160 because what I have to say

00:12:57.840 about Trump

00:12:58.560 I wouldn't say

00:12:59.520 about any other Republican.

00:13:01.400 And many Republicans

00:13:02.340 with whom I disagree

00:13:03.200 about politics

00:13:04.100 share my view of him.

00:13:06.320 I probably agree

00:13:07.460 with most of Trump's politics,

00:13:09.340 in fact.

00:13:10.680 Do I think we should have

00:13:11.360 a secure border?

00:13:13.240 Absolutely.

00:13:14.600 Do I think we should be

00:13:15.540 harder on China?

00:13:17.000 Yes.

00:13:18.120 Do I think that much of the left

00:13:19.640 is in the grip

00:13:20.200 of an insane moral panic?

00:13:22.300 I do.

00:13:23.020 Do I think the phrase

00:13:25.180 defund the police

00:13:26.380 is one of the stupidest

00:13:28.020 ever uttered?

00:13:29.400 Of course.

00:13:31.280 Do I recognize

00:13:32.360 that globalization

00:13:33.100 has produced many casualties

00:13:34.620 in our society?

00:13:36.220 Yes.

00:13:37.640 Am I in favor of

00:13:38.800 on-shoring much of our

00:13:39.940 supply chain

00:13:40.580 and energy infrastructure?

00:13:42.520 Yes, I am.

00:13:43.920 Am I appropriately humbled

00:13:45.460 by our misadventures

00:13:46.660 in Afghanistan and Iraq,

00:13:48.100 and now skeptical

00:13:49.400 of our ability

00:13:50.120 to do anything

00:13:50.780 like nation-building?

00:13:52.860 Absolutely.

00:13:54.880 All of this

00:13:55.760 significantly overlaps

00:13:56.920 with Trump's policies

00:13:58.020 and with the political

00:13:59.200 concerns of his supporters.

00:14:01.260 I may be an elitist,

00:14:02.620 globalist,

00:14:03.560 Jew asshole,

00:14:04.960 as many of Trump's

00:14:05.820 supporters now allege,

00:14:07.680 but not only

00:14:08.400 don't I denigrate

00:14:09.660 many of their

00:14:10.240 political concerns,

00:14:11.500 I share them.

00:14:13.440 My real opposition

00:14:14.880 to Trump,

00:14:16.120 beyond all the flaws

00:14:17.160 of his character,

00:14:18.680 which again,

00:14:19.240 I consider to be

00:14:19.880 so far beyond the norm,

00:14:22.140 that I just cannot

00:14:23.400 believe

00:14:24.380 we even have to think

00:14:25.880 about this man.

00:14:27.240 But the thing

00:14:28.100 that makes him

00:14:28.640 truly irredeemable,

00:14:30.380 and should have made him

00:14:30.980 politically radioactive

00:14:32.060 for Republicans

00:14:32.840 for the rest of his life,

00:14:34.740 is that as a sitting

00:14:35.720 President of the

00:14:36.460 United States,

00:14:37.900 he would not commit

00:14:39.020 to a peaceful

00:14:39.720 transfer of power.

00:14:41.460 He declined to do

00:14:42.520 this repeatedly,

00:14:44.140 many months

00:14:45.020 in advance of the election.

00:14:47.060 I believe this is

00:14:47.840 the most shocking thing

00:14:49.100 to have happened

00:14:49.740 politically in my lifetime.

00:14:52.440 And of course,

00:14:53.020 Trump's lack of commitment

00:14:54.040 to the most basic

00:14:55.040 principle of our democracy

00:14:56.380 laid the groundwork

00:14:58.020 for his big lie

00:14:58.980 about having really won

00:15:00.700 the 2020 election,

00:15:02.380 and for the violence

00:15:03.140 on January 6th.

00:15:05.140 This single fact,

00:15:07.020 among the thousands

00:15:08.000 of other facts

00:15:08.860 that should have

00:15:09.320 disqualified Trump

00:15:10.260 for the presidency,

00:15:10.940 this fact alone

00:15:12.820 should make Trump

00:15:14.200 impossible to defend,

00:15:16.140 much less support,

00:15:17.780 at this point.

00:15:19.160 And the fact

00:15:19.720 that the Republican Party

00:15:20.640 has found a way

00:15:21.520 to ignore this truth,

00:15:23.900 as though it were

00:15:24.340 some tiny detail,

00:15:26.060 is proof

00:15:26.900 that it has become

00:15:27.840 a cult of personality.

00:15:30.080 This is the real

00:15:31.660 Trump derangement syndrome,

00:15:33.640 to be defending

00:15:34.940 the indefensible.

00:15:36.200 What we are witnessing

00:15:38.500 now among Republicans

00:15:39.620 is not normal politics.

00:15:43.120 So when I describe Trump

00:15:44.800 as an existential threat

00:15:46.400 to our democracy,

00:15:47.620 I'm thinking about things

00:15:49.060 like the willingness

00:15:49.680 to abide by the results

00:15:50.940 of an election,

00:15:52.240 and the peaceful transfer

00:15:53.200 of power,

00:15:54.140 the very norms

00:15:55.520 that safeguard

00:15:56.600 our democracy.

00:15:58.360 One thing that Trump

00:15:59.540 taught us

00:16:00.220 is that we rely on norms

00:16:02.180 in so many ways,

00:16:04.060 and in some ways

00:16:04.840 even more than laws.

00:16:06.960 It's quite possible

00:16:07.720 that all of what Trump did

00:16:09.420 to corrupt and destabilize

00:16:11.260 our institutions

00:16:11.940 was legal.

00:16:13.660 It remains to be seen

00:16:14.820 whether he's committed

00:16:15.480 any crimes at all.

00:16:17.560 It's legal

00:16:18.220 to just ask

00:16:19.240 the Russians on television

00:16:20.380 to hack the emails

00:16:22.000 of your political opponent.

00:16:23.540 And there's no price to pay

00:16:24.700 when they actually

00:16:25.500 do that very thing.

00:16:27.360 It's apparently legal

00:16:28.360 to campaign on the promise

00:16:29.760 that you'll lock up

00:16:30.600 your political opponent

00:16:31.480 when you win.

00:16:32.820 And it seems legal

00:16:33.520 to openly lie

00:16:34.420 about having won

00:16:35.220 an election

00:16:35.680 that you actually lost.

00:16:37.740 And to encourage a mob

00:16:38.880 to gather in Washington

00:16:39.960 to, quote,

00:16:40.680 stop the steal.

00:16:42.160 And when they begin

00:16:42.760 storming the Capitol

00:16:43.680 and calling for the murder

00:16:44.840 of your vice president

00:16:45.800 in order to stop the steal,

00:16:48.380 it may be legal

00:16:49.340 to just sit on your hands

00:16:51.100 when you're the only person

00:16:53.080 on earth

00:16:53.580 who can do anything

00:16:54.360 to stop the violence,

00:16:55.860 just to see if things

00:16:56.660 somehow play out

00:16:57.460 in your favor.

00:16:59.060 There don't appear

00:16:59.900 to be laws

00:17:00.860 to defend our democracy

00:17:02.620 against this sort of thing.

00:17:04.940 It's just that we've

00:17:05.460 tended to expect

00:17:06.100 that our politicians

00:17:06.860 won't behave in these ways.

00:17:08.780 And normal politicians,

00:17:10.500 or even just decent

00:17:11.500 human beings,

00:17:12.680 won't.

00:17:13.880 For better or worse,

00:17:15.200 the integrity

00:17:15.780 of our democracy

00:17:16.720 depends on hundreds

00:17:18.220 of norms like these

00:17:19.420 not being violated

00:17:20.960 on a daily basis.

00:17:22.580 But when I say

00:17:23.460 that Trump is an existential

00:17:24.480 threat to our democracy,

00:17:26.280 I don't mean

00:17:27.260 that he is orange Hitler.

00:17:28.560 Again,

00:17:30.480 Trump is a narrowly selfish

00:17:32.440 con man.

00:17:34.360 He doesn't appear

00:17:35.240 to think big at all.

00:17:37.600 If he wants anything,

00:17:39.080 it appears to be

00:17:39.820 only fame and money.

00:17:41.920 He seems content

00:17:42.700 to do things

00:17:43.440 like rack up

00:17:44.200 millions of dollars

00:17:45.140 in fees

00:17:45.920 at his hotels

00:17:46.960 and golf courses

00:17:47.960 and apartment buildings

00:17:49.020 by doing things

00:17:50.020 like oblige

00:17:50.680 the Secret Service

00:17:51.620 to stay there.

00:17:53.300 We all use the word

00:17:54.380 grifter now

00:17:55.380 with alarming frequency.

00:17:57.500 Trump is the ultimate

00:17:58.700 grifter.

00:18:00.000 But he is not ideological.

00:18:02.480 He seems to believe

00:18:03.200 in nothing

00:18:03.780 beyond the next opportunity

00:18:05.520 to do something

00:18:06.200 venal and selfish.

00:18:08.000 So he is not

00:18:09.260 Hitler.

00:18:10.760 And this brings me

00:18:11.360 to another confusing thing

00:18:12.320 about the clip

00:18:12.820 you're about to hear.

00:18:14.160 I use the analogy

00:18:15.140 of an asteroid

00:18:16.040 hurtling toward Earth.

00:18:17.820 This was not meant

00:18:18.980 to indicate

00:18:19.500 how bad I think

00:18:20.460 Trump is.

00:18:21.500 It was meant

00:18:21.940 to indicate

00:18:22.300 that the significance

00:18:23.260 that the podcast hosts

00:18:24.760 were attaching

00:18:25.420 to the term

00:18:26.020 conspiracy

00:18:26.760 was misplaced.

00:18:29.040 Anyway,

00:18:29.520 you'll hear how

00:18:29.960 potentially misleading

00:18:30.880 this is.

00:18:32.460 Okay,

00:18:32.920 so now for the clip.

00:18:34.420 Here's the necessary context.

00:18:36.520 As I said on Twitter,

00:18:37.380 I was talking about

00:18:37.900 the ethics of ignoring

00:18:39.080 the story about

00:18:39.940 Hunter Biden's laptop

00:18:41.080 until after the election.

00:18:43.240 I won't play other clips

00:18:44.240 from the interview,

00:18:45.340 but suffice it to say

00:18:46.160 that I made it

00:18:46.720 absolutely clear

00:18:47.820 that I found

00:18:48.660 the decision

00:18:49.280 to ignore this story

00:18:50.640 a very hard call,

00:18:53.180 ethically and journalistically.

00:18:54.300 I stated quite clearly

00:18:56.520 that I could argue

00:18:57.880 both sides of the issue

00:18:59.100 and that my mind

00:19:00.320 wasn't made up.

00:19:01.920 It still isn't made up.

00:19:03.740 And I admitted

00:19:04.480 that it was corrosive

00:19:05.460 for journalistic institutions

00:19:06.720 like the New York Times

00:19:07.820 to appear to show

00:19:09.260 obvious political bias

00:19:10.760 in this way

00:19:11.500 when everyone knows

00:19:13.240 they would never

00:19:13.860 have ignored

00:19:14.360 a Donald Trump Jr.

00:19:15.940 laptop story.

00:19:17.120 And I said that for me

00:19:18.300 it really was

00:19:19.180 close to a coin toss.

00:19:20.940 I could go either way

00:19:21.940 on this.

00:19:23.200 In the clip

00:19:23.580 you're about to hear

00:19:24.320 I said that

00:19:25.260 ignoring the laptop story

00:19:26.780 and even suppressing

00:19:28.080 the New York Post's

00:19:29.120 Twitter account

00:19:29.720 when they ran it

00:19:30.520 was, quote,

00:19:31.940 totally warranted.

00:19:33.600 What I clearly

00:19:34.600 meant to say

00:19:35.300 was totally justifiable.

00:19:37.960 It's the difference

00:19:38.740 between justified

00:19:39.700 and justifiable.

00:19:41.520 In the very next sentence

00:19:42.640 I begin to say

00:19:43.700 for the second time

00:19:44.480 in the interview

00:19:44.960 that it really

00:19:46.080 is a coin toss

00:19:47.040 for me

00:19:47.660 which makes no sense

00:19:49.180 when said against

00:19:49.760 the word warranted.

00:19:50.600 This is where

00:19:52.000 I truly misspoke

00:19:53.000 this single word.

00:19:55.380 However,

00:19:55.640 as you'll hear

00:19:56.160 I say several

00:19:57.400 inflammatory things

00:19:58.460 in this clip

00:19:59.180 so there's a little

00:20:00.800 more to clarify

00:20:01.440 but I can defend

00:20:02.960 everything I say here

00:20:04.260 because I believe

00:20:05.660 everything I say here

00:20:06.860 except one word.

00:20:09.380 Hunter Biden

00:20:09.880 at that point

00:20:10.440 Hunter Biden

00:20:10.920 literally could have

00:20:11.680 had the corpses

00:20:13.440 of children

00:20:14.140 in his basement.

00:20:15.620 I would not have cared.

00:20:17.260 Right?

00:20:17.440 It's like

00:20:17.640 there's nothing

00:20:18.720 first of all

00:20:19.560 it's Hunter Biden

00:20:20.420 right?

00:20:20.660 It's not Joe Biden

00:20:22.380 but even if Joe

00:20:24.420 like even

00:20:25.180 whatever scope

00:20:26.520 of Joe Biden's

00:20:27.360 corruption is

00:20:28.120 like if we could

00:20:29.580 just go down

00:20:30.040 that rabbit hole

00:20:30.740 endlessly

00:20:31.180 and understand

00:20:32.900 that he's getting

00:20:33.360 kickbacks

00:20:33.920 from Hunter Biden's

00:20:35.000 deals in Ukraine

00:20:36.080 or wherever else

00:20:36.700 right?

00:20:37.380 Or China

00:20:37.880 it is

00:20:39.820 infinitesimal

00:20:41.720 compared to the

00:20:43.120 corruption

00:20:43.520 we know

00:20:44.680 Trump

00:20:45.280 is involved in.

00:20:46.440 It's like

00:20:46.600 it's like

00:20:46.900 it's like

00:20:47.200 a firefly

00:20:47.880 to the sun

00:20:48.560 right?

00:20:49.200 I mean like

00:20:49.500 there's just

00:20:50.140 it doesn't even

00:20:51.120 it doesn't even

00:20:51.820 stack up against

00:20:52.900 Trump University

00:20:53.900 right?

00:20:54.880 Trump University

00:20:55.540 as a story

00:20:56.320 is worse

00:20:57.540 than anything

00:20:58.640 that could be

00:20:59.140 in Hunter Biden's

00:21:00.220 laptop

00:21:00.580 in my view

00:21:01.340 right?

00:21:02.240 Now that's not

00:21:02.960 that doesn't answer

00:21:03.720 the people who say

00:21:04.640 it's still completely

00:21:05.640 unfair

00:21:06.220 to not have

00:21:08.080 looked at the laptop

00:21:09.240 in a timely way

00:21:10.460 and to have shut down

00:21:11.360 the you know

00:21:11.880 the New York Post's

00:21:13.180 Twitter account

00:21:13.760 like that

00:21:14.120 that's just a

00:21:14.840 conspiracy

00:21:15.280 that's a left-wing

00:21:16.580 conspiracy

00:21:17.200 to deny the

00:21:18.400 presidency

00:21:18.920 to Donald Trump

00:21:20.060 absolutely it was

00:21:21.740 absolutely

00:21:22.280 right?

00:21:23.120 But I think it was

00:21:23.840 warranted

00:21:24.520 right?

00:21:24.940 And again

00:21:25.620 it's a coin toss

00:21:26.480 as to whether or not

00:21:27.260 that particular piece

00:21:28.560 I'm really sorry

00:21:29.200 I was the one

00:21:30.100 that said we should

00:21:30.700 move on

00:21:31.060 but you've just said

00:21:31.760 something I really

00:21:32.580 struggled with there

00:21:33.340 which is

00:21:33.940 you support

00:21:35.280 The kids in the

00:21:36.260 basement?

00:21:36.960 No no

00:21:37.540 the kids in the

00:21:38.660 basement

00:21:38.960 I'm interested in

00:21:40.300 democracy

00:21:40.760 you're saying

00:21:42.040 you are content

00:21:43.020 with a left-wing

00:21:44.840 conspiracy

00:21:45.540 to prevent

00:21:46.360 somebody being

00:21:47.140 democratically

00:21:47.840 re-elected

00:21:48.520 as president

00:21:49.360 Well no

00:21:49.680 I'm content

00:21:50.460 but the thing is

00:21:51.580 it's just not

00:21:51.940 left-wing

00:21:52.480 so Liz Cheney

00:21:53.580 is not left-wing

00:21:54.580 Liz Cheney

00:21:55.680 is doing everything

00:21:56.580 in her power

00:21:57.200 You're content with a conspiracy

00:21:57.240 to prevent somebody

00:21:58.220 being democratically

00:21:58.940 No but there's nothing

00:22:00.440 conspiracy

00:22:01.220 it was a conspiracy

00:22:02.900 out in the open

00:22:03.660 but it doesn't matter

00:22:04.720 it doesn't matter

00:22:05.680 what part's conspiracy

00:22:06.740 what part's out in the open

00:22:08.440 I mean I think

00:22:09.220 it's like

00:22:09.600 if people get together

00:22:11.060 and talk about

00:22:12.340 what should we do

00:22:13.240 about this phenomenon

00:22:14.500 it's like

00:22:15.720 if there was an asteroid

00:22:17.260 hurtling toward Earth

00:22:18.440 and we got in a room

00:22:20.700 together

00:22:21.160 with all of our friends

00:22:22.600 and had a conversation

00:22:23.520 about what we could do

00:22:24.500 to deflect its course

00:22:26.080 right

00:22:26.520 is that a conspiracy?

00:22:29.400 Okay

00:22:29.920 so as I said

00:22:31.100 you can hear me say

00:22:32.440 again

00:22:33.420 it was a coin toss

00:22:34.420 for me

00:22:35.060 right after I utter

00:22:36.620 the word

00:22:37.160 warranted

00:22:38.000 but then I get cut off

00:22:39.280 by the host's

00:22:40.000 next question

00:22:40.920 so I genuinely

00:22:42.540 misspoke

00:22:43.120 when I said

00:22:44.160 totally warranted

00:22:45.400 I can truly argue

00:22:46.740 both for and against

00:22:47.940 ignoring

00:22:48.480 and even suppressing

00:22:49.520 the Hunter Biden

00:22:50.200 laptop story

00:22:51.020 and I said that

00:22:52.340 clearly

00:22:52.920 elsewhere in the interview

00:22:54.380 but of course

00:22:55.820 you wouldn't know that

00:22:56.860 from that clip

00:22:57.860 and my asteroid

00:22:59.200 analogy is also

00:23:00.060 misleading

00:23:00.540 as presented

00:23:01.440 in the clip

00:23:02.140 because I was

00:23:03.340 starting to go down

00:23:03.940 a rabbit hole

00:23:04.600 about this loaded

00:23:05.460 term conspiracy

00:23:06.480 and why it was

00:23:07.680 irrelevant

00:23:08.100 in any case

00:23:09.260 the net result

00:23:10.120 is what comes

00:23:10.880 through in the clip

00:23:11.760 was emphatic approval

00:23:13.780 not just for ignoring

00:23:15.020 the story until

00:23:15.660 after the election

00:23:16.360 but for kicking

00:23:17.480 the New York Post

00:23:18.220 off of Twitter

00:23:18.840 and if I think

00:23:20.040 Trump is as bad

00:23:20.880 as an asteroid

00:23:21.680 that might destroy

00:23:23.020 all life on Earth

00:23:24.260 how could there

00:23:25.680 be any limit

00:23:26.360 to what I'd be

00:23:26.920 willing to do

00:23:27.440 to stop him

00:23:28.120 I'll come back

00:23:29.480 to that point

00:23:30.060 because it's important

00:23:31.320 as far as the

00:23:32.940 laptop story is

00:23:33.740 concerned

00:23:34.160 the other point

00:23:35.360 I should have made

00:23:36.180 is that viewing

00:23:37.220 the Hunter Biden

00:23:37.820 laptop as

00:23:38.620 Russian disinformation

00:23:39.640 or some other

00:23:40.860 sort of disinformation

00:23:41.720 was quite reasonable

00:23:43.780 when the story

00:23:44.920 first broke

00:23:45.520 so I'm not at all

00:23:46.860 convinced

00:23:47.440 that Twitter

00:23:48.680 knew it was

00:23:49.340 shutting down

00:23:49.880 a real story

00:23:50.720 or even that

00:23:51.880 the New York Times

00:23:52.660 knew it was

00:23:53.100 ignoring a real one

00:23:54.260 so I don't think

00:23:55.300 any early claims

00:23:56.520 of Russian disinformation

00:23:57.740 were necessarily lies

00:23:59.680 and I actually

00:24:01.060 have no opinion

00:24:01.920 about whether

00:24:02.720 the 50 intelligence

00:24:03.720 professionals

00:24:04.300 who signed that letter

00:24:05.380 alleging that it was

00:24:06.460 probably Russian disinformation

00:24:07.800 were lying

00:24:08.760 they might not have been

00:24:10.160 this was a totally

00:24:12.180 crazy story

00:24:13.300 a laptop from hell

00:24:15.720 just gets abandoned

00:24:16.800 in a computer store

00:24:17.940 and then winds up

00:24:19.480 with who?

00:24:20.800 Rudy Giuliani?

00:24:21.720 my claim

00:24:23.600 is that

00:24:24.200 given what

00:24:24.780 happened in 2016

00:24:25.960 with Anthony Weiner's

00:24:27.040 laptop

00:24:27.460 10 days before

00:24:29.220 the election

00:24:29.760 it is totally

00:24:31.620 understandable

00:24:32.420 that smart

00:24:33.900 well-intentioned

00:24:35.040 people

00:24:35.380 were inclined

00:24:36.460 to avert their

00:24:37.220 eyes from the

00:24:37.800 Hunter Biden story

00:24:38.840 until after the

00:24:40.220 election

00:24:40.560 as I was

00:24:41.860 from my point

00:24:43.320 of view

00:24:43.660 it was totally

00:24:44.920 rational at that

00:24:45.840 point

00:24:46.180 not to care

00:24:47.780 what was on

00:24:48.360 Hunter Biden's

00:24:49.000 laptop

00:24:49.440 and the truth

00:24:50.660 is

00:24:50.960 I still don't

00:24:52.060 care

00:24:52.360 given that

00:24:53.380 Trump is

00:24:53.840 looming over

00:24:54.320 the 2024

00:24:54.880 election

00:24:55.600 given the choice

00:24:57.560 we had in

00:24:58.120 2020

00:24:58.600 given how

00:25:00.040 much we know

00:25:00.960 about both

00:25:01.680 Trump and

00:25:02.180 Biden

00:25:02.540 stretching back

00:25:03.920 decades

00:25:04.520 there is

00:25:05.880 absolutely

00:25:06.460 nothing that

00:25:07.160 could be on

00:25:07.540 that laptop

00:25:08.200 that is relevant

00:25:09.220 to me

00:25:09.620 and I'll

00:25:10.620 explain why

00:25:11.400 in a moment

00:25:11.880 and this will

00:25:13.320 also be true

00:25:14.180 in 2024

00:25:14.880 if Trump

00:25:15.880 runs again

00:25:16.380 now as I

00:25:18.100 said I was

00:25:18.620 not speaking

00:25:19.320 especially

00:25:20.440 systematically

00:25:21.740 or well

00:25:22.700 in that

00:25:23.720 podcast

00:25:24.240 and many

00:25:25.700 things got

00:25:26.140 condensed

00:25:26.700 and entangled

00:25:27.640 in my remarks

00:25:28.500 about the

00:25:28.820 Hunter Biden

00:25:29.220 laptop story

00:25:30.000 for instance

00:25:30.880 there's obviously

00:25:31.540 a distinction

00:25:32.160 between the

00:25:33.140 New York Times

00:25:33.720 deciding to

00:25:34.460 ignore the

00:25:35.020 story

00:25:35.360 and Twitter

00:25:36.580 deciding to

00:25:37.260 suppress the

00:25:38.020 New York Post

00:25:38.700 story about it

00:25:39.760 I think I'm

00:25:40.800 more comfortable

00:25:41.300 with the

00:25:41.660 former than

00:25:42.280 the latter

00:25:42.660 and there's

00:25:43.680 a distinction

00:25:44.100 between these

00:25:44.720 two things

00:25:45.320 and having

00:25:46.000 50 ex-intelligence

00:25:47.260 professionals

00:25:47.880 sign a letter

00:25:49.020 declaring that

00:25:49.720 it was Russian

00:25:50.220 disinformation

00:25:50.800 I didn't

00:25:51.980 differentiate

00:25:52.340 any of those

00:25:52.960 things in my

00:25:53.720 remarks

00:25:54.100 and the truth

00:25:55.120 is I feel

00:25:55.620 somewhat differently

00:25:56.360 about them

00:25:57.140 there are several

00:25:58.500 other things

00:25:58.980 that are misleading

00:25:59.580 about that clip

00:26:00.520 most people

00:26:01.640 appear to be

00:26:02.100 conflating what

00:26:02.880 I'm recommending

00:26:03.440 there with

00:26:03.940 something illegal

00:26:04.680 like actual

00:26:05.980 election fraud

00:26:06.780 or some other

00:26:08.020 way of subverting

00:26:08.820 democracy

00:26:09.420 in fact even

00:26:10.480 the podcast

00:26:10.940 hosts appear to

00:26:11.740 have misunderstood

00:26:12.140 me on that

00:26:13.020 point

00:26:13.340 I say a few

00:26:14.640 things to

00:26:15.000 emphasize the

00:26:15.640 difference

00:26:15.960 but it doesn't

00:26:16.480 really clear

00:26:17.220 the air

00:26:17.660 ignoring the

00:26:19.340 Hunter Biden

00:26:19.920 story or

00:26:21.080 even suppressing

00:26:21.940 it again I'm

00:26:23.400 still not entirely

00:26:24.460 sure what I think

00:26:25.280 about that but

00:26:26.720 neither of those

00:26:27.460 actions entail

00:26:28.460 breaking the law

00:26:29.320 they don't even

00:26:30.300 entail lying

00:26:31.240 this is just pure

00:26:32.880 editorial judgment

00:26:34.160 especially if you

00:26:36.180 think the story

00:26:36.860 stands a chance of

00:26:37.880 being Russian

00:26:38.400 disinformation

00:26:38.980 this is not

00:26:40.680 breaking the

00:26:41.360 first amendment

00:26:42.000 is not destroying

00:26:43.940 democracy in

00:26:44.980 order to save

00:26:45.660 it it isn't

00:26:47.060 any of the

00:26:47.640 things that

00:26:48.260 hysterical defenders

00:26:49.300 of Trump are

00:26:50.560 now alleging

00:26:51.320 and I should say

00:26:52.940 it's simply

00:26:53.540 amazing to hear

00:26:54.980 people who are

00:26:55.680 carrying water

00:26:56.680 for the biggest

00:26:58.080 liar probably in

00:26:59.960 history shrieking

00:27:01.540 about the primacy

00:27:02.500 of truth and

00:27:03.800 journalistic

00:27:04.300 integrity in a

00:27:05.840 right-wing echo

00:27:06.660 chamber that has

00:27:08.000 ignored and

00:27:08.920 suppressed real

00:27:09.980 facts and real

00:27:11.080 stories and

00:27:12.000 for decades

00:27:12.860 you're telling me

00:27:14.340 that you think

00:27:14.760 Fox News and

00:27:16.100 Breitbart and

00:27:17.520 AM Talk Radio and

00:27:19.480 the One America

00:27:20.360 News Network don't

00:27:21.940 ignore stories they

00:27:23.100 find politically

00:27:23.780 inconvenient this is

00:27:25.760 where you get your

00:27:26.400 news and you're

00:27:27.360 pretending to be

00:27:28.280 worried about media

00:27:29.260 bias and as for

00:27:31.400 engaging in so-called

00:27:32.680 censorship what do

00:27:34.520 you think is

00:27:34.900 happening when

00:27:35.560 Wikipedia locks down

00:27:36.880 a page for a time

00:27:38.080 or erases the edits

00:27:39.860 made by some QAnon

00:27:41.140 lunatic is that

00:27:42.440 censorship is it a

00:27:44.100 breach of the

00:27:44.540 first amendment is

00:27:46.180 it the end of

00:27:46.800 democracy should

00:27:48.640 everyone get to

00:27:49.580 say whatever they

00:27:50.480 want on every

00:27:51.320 platform no every

00:27:54.740 legitimate platform

00:27:56.040 requires some form

00:27:57.860 of moderation

00:27:58.540 otherwise every

00:28:00.300 platform would

00:28:00.980 become like 4chan an

00:28:02.800 absolute cesspool every

00:28:05.040 platform has an

00:28:05.880 ethical obligation in

00:28:07.440 my view to exercise

00:28:09.160 some editorial

00:28:10.240 control with the

00:28:11.880 public good in

00:28:12.720 mind the problem is

00:28:14.500 this might be

00:28:15.080 impossible to do

00:28:16.240 well and Twitter

00:28:18.260 isn't doing it

00:28:19.680 well and I agree it

00:28:21.520 certainly appears to

00:28:22.260 show a left-leaning

00:28:23.260 bias and that's

00:28:25.080 annoying I think

00:28:26.920 kicking people off the

00:28:28.040 platform for saying

00:28:29.780 benign and obviously

00:28:31.100 true things like men

00:28:33.060 and women are

00:28:33.620 different is insane

00:28:36.180 but as I said at

00:28:37.860 some length in that

00:28:38.560 podcast I'm not sure

00:28:40.680 what the remedy is

00:28:41.600 one remedy is to

00:28:43.140 start competing social

00:28:44.160 media platforms which

00:28:45.740 is what conservatives

00:28:46.440 have done you've got

00:28:48.360 truth social and gab and

00:28:50.580 getter and I don't

00:28:52.140 know what else my

00:28:53.800 point is that it's

00:28:54.480 hard to figure out what

00:28:55.700 to do here beyond

00:28:57.100 letting the market

00:28:57.820 recognize that there's a

00:28:58.800 growing opportunity to

00:28:59.840 build new and better

00:29:00.780 things or in this case

00:29:02.760 new and much worse

00:29:04.320 things you really think

00:29:06.300 you're going to get the

00:29:06.780 truth on truth social

00:29:08.560 but what really is the

00:29:11.000 alternative I highly

00:29:13.280 doubt we want the

00:29:14.960 police or some other

00:29:17.080 government agency

00:29:18.200 kicking down doors

00:29:20.020 trying to enforce a

00:29:21.720 balanced application of

00:29:23.000 Twitter's terms of

00:29:23.860 service as I said on

00:29:25.560 that podcast I think

00:29:27.120 Twitter should be free to

00:29:28.100 destroy itself it should

00:29:30.080 be free to become a

00:29:30.840 platform purely for

00:29:32.560 trans rights activists

00:29:34.000 and if you don't think

00:29:35.320 Twitter should be free

00:29:36.080 to do that you are

00:29:37.480 advocating for a world

00:29:39.000 in which the employees

00:29:40.120 and board members at

00:29:41.460 Twitter who want to

00:29:42.920 bend it in that

00:29:43.580 direction are eventually

00:29:45.620 put in prison we

00:29:47.340 probably find them first

00:29:49.020 of course but what do

00:29:50.940 we do when they don't

00:29:52.500 pay the fines we start

00:29:54.300 putting people with

00:29:55.120 purple hair in prison I

00:29:56.760 guess I don't think

00:29:58.240 that's a road we want

00:29:59.020 to go down Joe Rogan's

00:30:01.320 podcast is enormous at

00:30:02.820 this point could it

00:30:04.400 become so influential

00:30:05.280 that we would want the

00:30:06.020 government to force him

00:30:07.240 to talk to guests that

00:30:08.840 he doesn't want to talk

00:30:09.720 to I don't think so

00:30:11.820 anyway as I said getting

00:30:14.440 vilified at scale reveals

00:30:16.880 a few things one thing

00:30:18.860 that's revealed is that I

00:30:20.300 don't really have a tribe

00:30:21.340 but I knew that as you've

00:30:24.260 heard in previous

00:30:24.940 podcasts I've always been

00:30:26.600 fairly aghast at

00:30:28.180 accusations of tribalism

00:30:29.600 and political partisanship

00:30:30.880 because I go as hard as

00:30:32.940 anyone against Trump and

00:30:34.480 the far right and I go as

00:30:36.300 hard as anyone against the

00:30:37.560 woke and the far left

00:30:39.100 not many people do that I

00:30:42.000 think I can count on one

00:30:43.000 hand the number of people

00:30:44.400 I know who do that Andrew

00:30:46.640 Sullivan does it Bill

00:30:48.720 Omar does it I can't think

00:30:51.100 of anyone else at the

00:30:52.320 moment though I'm sure

00:30:53.340 there are others one of

00:30:55.420 the consequences of

00:30:56.300 pissing off both the

00:30:57.340 right and the left is

00:30:58.920 that when you become the

00:30:59.640 object of a Twitter

00:31:00.500 mobbing there are very

00:31:02.100 few people inclined to

00:31:03.400 defend you they're

00:31:04.940 certainly not going to

00:31:05.620 defend you reflexively and

00:31:07.220 tribally because you

00:31:08.620 spend half your time

00:31:09.560 pissing them off I really

00:31:12.200 have an unusual audience

00:31:13.560 and it's a direct

00:31:14.800 consequence of how I

00:31:16.000 think at some point I've

00:31:17.900 made almost everyone

00:31:18.940 uncomfortable I've made

00:31:20.620 religious people

00:31:21.320 uncomfortable by attacking

00:31:22.420 religion and being an

00:31:23.720 atheist I've made

00:31:25.220 atheists uncomfortable by

00:31:26.620 going on and on about how

00:31:27.880 meditation and psychedelics

00:31:29.360 can produce real

00:31:30.340 spiritual insight I've

00:31:32.400 made spiritual people

00:31:33.380 uncomfortable by saying

00:31:34.360 that many of their

00:31:34.940 beliefs are bogus I've

00:31:37.160 made many left of

00:31:38.200 center uncomfortable by

00:31:39.420 talking honestly about

00:31:40.640 racial disparities in crime

00:31:42.240 and the connection between

00:31:43.620 Islam and terrorism I've

00:31:45.980 made many people right of

00:31:46.960 center uncomfortable by

00:31:47.980 talking about the

00:31:48.560 problem of wealth

00:31:49.360 inequality and I've

00:31:51.040 alienated more or less

00:31:52.020 everyone by insisting

00:31:53.820 that free will is an

00:31:55.020 illusion the truth is I've

00:31:57.080 pissed off a lot of

00:31:58.000 people by goring one

00:31:59.520 sacred cow or another

00:32:00.780 there is no tribe for

00:32:03.200 this so at moments like

00:32:05.220 this I'm more or less on

00:32:06.940 my own but it's a very

00:32:09.020 fair trade for the quality

00:32:11.460 of the audience I've built

00:32:12.980 I have an audience that

00:32:15.120 wants to know what I

00:32:16.320 think and more

00:32:17.600 important how I think

00:32:19.260 and if you're a true

00:32:20.560 member of my audience

00:32:21.700 and you're not just

00:32:22.940 listening to this because

00:32:23.720 you hate me you are

00:32:25.200 here because you enjoy

00:32:26.340 the ride whether you

00:32:28.140 agree with everything I

00:32:29.100 think or not as I said

00:32:31.420 one also finds out who

00:32:32.440 one's friends are at a

00:32:33.800 time like this and you

00:32:35.680 find out who is a real

00:32:36.440 professional and who

00:32:37.880 isn't Megan Kelly for

00:32:39.960 instance who I don't

00:32:41.140 know I was just on her

00:32:41.980 podcast once was

00:32:44.060 incredibly gracious even

00:32:46.300 while probably taking

00:32:47.260 that clip at face value

00:32:48.460 she clearly was walking

00:32:50.840 the line in front of a

00:32:51.860 largely right-wing

00:32:53.000 audience with co-hosts

00:32:54.860 who thought the worst

00:32:55.680 of me but she managed to

00:32:57.100 do it without screwing

00:32:58.100 me over I'm sure she

00:32:59.980 and I disagree about

00:33:00.860 many many things but I

00:33:03.020 truly admire how she

00:33:04.140 handled herself there I

00:33:06.220 can't say the same for

00:33:07.400 many other people the

00:33:09.340 strangest response is

00:33:11.320 from people who think

00:33:12.220 that my efforts to

00:33:13.060 clarify my points on

00:33:14.180 Twitter and they will

00:33:15.900 probably take the same

00:33:16.740 view of what I'm doing

00:33:17.540 here amount to my

00:33:19.220 walking things back and

00:33:20.580 apologizing in response

00:33:22.060 to a backlash many of

00:33:24.080 these people seem to

00:33:24.700 believe that I destroyed

00:33:25.640 my career by inadvertently

00:33:27.760 blurting out what I

00:33:28.700 really think and now I'm

00:33:30.340 just trying to do damage

00:33:31.240 control none of these

00:33:33.440 people understand me or

00:33:35.440 my audience or my

00:33:37.140 business frankly here's

00:33:39.480 the only thing I wrote

00:33:40.080 on Twitter in response

00:33:41.200 to the clip there's a

00:33:43.640 podcast clip circulating

00:33:44.840 that seems to be

00:33:45.440 confusing many people

00:33:46.540 about my views on

00:33:47.500 Trump which is

00:33:48.600 understandable because I

00:33:49.520 wasn't speaking very

00:33:50.280 clearly so for what it's

00:33:51.880 worth here's what I was

00:33:52.940 trying to say I was

00:33:54.560 essentially arguing for

00:33:55.620 a principle of self

00:33:56.580 defense where there's a

00:33:58.020 continuum of

00:33:58.840 proportionate force that

00:34:00.300 is appropriate and

00:34:01.160 necessary to use I've

00:34:03.140 always viewed Trump as

00:34:04.060 a very dangerous person to

00:34:05.320 elect as president of a

00:34:06.460 fake university let

00:34:07.920 alone the US and when

00:34:09.380 he became a sitting

00:34:10.160 president who would not

00:34:11.400 commit to a peaceful

00:34:12.160 transfer of power I

00:34:13.800 viewed him as more

00:34:14.380 dangerous still however

00:34:15.960 I've never been under any

00:34:16.980 illusion that he is

00:34:17.820 orange Hitler on the

00:34:19.540 podcast I was speaking

00:34:20.520 narrowly about the

00:34:21.500 wisdom and propriety of

00:34:22.740 ignoring the Hunter

00:34:23.520 Biden laptop story until

00:34:25.160 after the election I've

00:34:26.800 always thought that this

00:34:27.480 was a very hard call

00:34:28.560 ethically and

00:34:29.360 journalistically but

00:34:30.980 given what happened to

00:34:31.760 the Anthony Weiner

00:34:32.500 laptop in the previous

00:34:33.540 election I think it was

00:34:35.100 probably the right call

00:34:36.260 nothing I said on the

00:34:37.660 podcast was meant to

00:34:38.580 suggest that the

00:34:39.180 Democrats would have

00:34:39.920 been right to commit

00:34:40.740 election fraud or take

00:34:42.400 any other illegal

00:34:43.260 measures to deny Trump

00:34:44.560 the presidency nor do I

00:34:46.220 think they did that

00:34:47.000 okay so after reading

00:34:49.820 these tweets many people

00:34:52.060 have argued that this

00:34:53.520 really couldn't be an

00:34:54.440 honest articulation of my

00:34:55.860 views because it just

00:34:57.600 seems like a slippery

00:34:58.420 slope if I'm willing to

00:35:00.460 ignore information then I'm

00:35:02.460 willing to suppress

00:35:03.340 information and if I'm

00:35:05.100 willing to do that I

00:35:05.880 must be willing to lie

00:35:06.800 and if I'm willing to

00:35:08.100 lie I must be willing to

00:35:09.620 commit outright election

00:35:10.540 fraud by stuffing ballot

00:35:11.920 boxes and rigging voting

00:35:13.040 machines there's no

00:35:14.340 natural stopping point if I

00:35:16.200 think Trump is an

00:35:16.920 asteroid hurtling toward

00:35:18.260 earth right wouldn't you

00:35:19.820 do anything to stop an

00:35:21.400 asteroid if I thought

00:35:23.340 Trump was literally the

00:35:24.600 next Hitler I should want

00:35:26.680 him assassinated is that

00:35:28.880 even controversial to say

00:35:30.540 is there anyone who

00:35:32.540 doesn't wish that one of

00:35:34.200 the plots against Hitler

00:35:35.180 had succeeded unless

00:35:37.380 you're a Nazi or just

00:35:39.120 crazy you too wish that

00:35:41.720 Hitler had been

00:35:42.480 assassinated and as I

00:35:44.240 said I think our killing

00:35:45.060 of Osama bin Laden was

00:35:46.320 totally justified but I

00:35:48.180 don't think Trump is

00:35:49.200 Hitler or anything like

00:35:50.940 him I think he's a person

00:35:52.600 like Alex Jones and I

00:35:54.220 said that on that podcast

00:35:55.480 it's like we elected Alex

00:35:57.400 Jones president I think

00:35:59.700 he's a person like L. Ron

00:36:00.760 Hubbard without Hubbard's

00:36:02.400 astounding typing ability

00:36:04.320 making Trump president was

00:36:06.800 a disaster for our country

00:36:08.560 but it was not the same

00:36:10.120 sort of disaster that

00:36:11.240 started World War II and

00:36:12.960 sent millions of people to

00:36:14.240 death camps what would I

00:36:16.120 expect if Trump got elected

00:36:17.260 again in 2024 the further

00:36:19.960 unraveling of America's

00:36:21.240 stature in the world a

00:36:23.700 further descent into the

00:36:24.840 chaos of conspiracy thinking

00:36:26.460 and lies here at home our

00:36:28.860 further derangement

00:36:29.900 politically on more or

00:36:31.740 less every topic irrational

00:36:33.940 fury and demagoguery and

00:36:35.880 blasphemy tests on both the

00:36:37.720 right and the left more

00:36:39.400 grifting and humiliating

00:36:41.000 norm violations from Trump

00:36:42.440 and his family massive

00:36:44.280 opportunity costs on more or

00:36:45.780 less every front because

00:36:47.180 while all that's going on

00:36:48.320 we're going to be very

00:36:49.160 distracted from every other

00:36:50.220 important thing I think all

00:36:52.600 of this will be terrible for

00:36:54.280 America and for the world

00:36:55.880 above all I think setting

00:36:57.820 the precedent that you can

00:36:59.500 lie about everything and

00:37:01.740 shatter the most basic

00:37:03.080 norms of our democracy and

00:37:05.200 still get re-elected to the

00:37:07.100 presidency could lead us

00:37:08.720 further down the path of

00:37:10.240 democratic decline and yes

00:37:12.920 if re-elected I would also

00:37:14.300 expect Trump to enact some

00:37:15.980 rational and pragmatic

00:37:17.020 policies that I also just

00:37:18.700 happen to agree with so this

00:37:20.760 is not at all the same as

00:37:22.680 electing a highly competent

00:37:24.520 evil person with a grand

00:37:26.940 plan to remake the world

00:37:28.600 actually the insurrection on

00:37:34.020 January 6th is perfectly

00:37:37.220 Trump this is exactly the

00:37:40.280 kind of coup you would expect

00:37:43.200 to be associated with the

00:37:44.320 man not really a coup at all

00:37:47.940 there's no question he was

00:37:50.260 trying to disrupt the

00:37:51.820 certification of the election

00:37:53.580 he was trying to bully

00:37:55.480 Pence and Congress by

00:37:57.840 sending that mob to the

00:37:59.340 Capitol but when they

00:38:02.160 breach the Capitol what

00:38:04.020 happens they just wander

00:38:05.980 around in their costumes

00:38:08.180 smearing shit on the walls

00:38:10.600 and taking selfies and

00:38:13.060 stealing mementos from Nancy

00:38:15.100 Pelosi's office this is

00:38:17.800 Trump actually the real essence

00:38:21.360 of Trump was that he figured

00:38:23.320 out how to raise hundreds of

00:38:24.680 millions of dollars from his

00:38:26.120 supporters amid all this chaos

00:38:28.840 he monetized the absolute

00:38:31.540 degradation of our institutions

00:38:34.060 that's Trump so there's no

00:38:37.960 problem with a slippery slope

00:38:40.000 everything we do or don't do can

00:38:42.620 be proportionate to the moment and

00:38:45.520 I certainly think it was rational

00:38:46.720 to hope in 2020 that merely

00:38:50.140 trying to force good information to

00:38:53.280 win over bad information would be

00:38:55.980 sufficient to keep Trump from the

00:38:58.240 presidency and I maintain that hope

00:39:00.500 for 2024 nothing in that space is

00:39:03.940 illegal and nothing entails lying and I can

00:39:09.640 say honestly that I can see how people

00:39:12.280 could easily justify ignoring a

00:39:15.720 story that emerged as an October

00:39:17.380 surprise because they know there's

00:39:19.600 not enough time to get to the

00:39:20.760 bottom of it it is rational to

00:39:23.680 ignore the story until after the

00:39:25.260 election and I can support the

00:39:27.240 right of tech companies to be

00:39:28.860 biased because I can't see how we

00:39:31.240 can force them to not be biased

00:39:33.060 without damaging more important

00:39:34.960 things in our society and I can

00:39:37.240 honestly say that this was a hard

00:39:38.660 call really in the territory of a

00:39:41.100 coin toss but if pressed I would

00:39:43.740 probably side with those who

00:39:45.000 ignored the story because that's

00:39:46.740 what I in fact did right I didn't

00:39:48.940 talk about the story on this

00:39:50.500 podcast there's another point that

00:39:53.140 many people on the right reacted

00:39:55.040 negatively to in that clip that's

00:39:57.880 when I said that there's no possible

00:39:59.240 scandal involving kickbacks from

00:40:01.920 China or Ukraine to Biden that could

00:40:04.760 outweigh Trump's corruption how can I

00:40:07.640 say such a thing okay well obviously

00:40:10.080 I'm not saying that it would be a

00:40:11.380 good thing if Biden were corrupt in

00:40:13.560 this way I'm saying it wouldn't

00:40:15.440 matter in a forced choice between

00:40:18.380 him and a president who had

00:40:21.240 repeatedly said that he might not

00:40:23.120 accept the results of an election or

00:40:25.300 support a peaceful transfer of power

00:40:27.380 but there's this underlying question

00:40:29.900 why do I know that Biden couldn't be

00:40:33.100 nearly as corrupt as Trump without

00:40:35.220 examining the contents of his son's

00:40:36.940 laptop because both of these guys have

00:40:40.780 been living in public for nearly as

00:40:42.980 long as I've been alive we know a

00:40:45.240 tremendous amount about both of them

00:40:47.280 going back over 40 years it's like

00:40:50.460 what if a story broke suggesting that

00:40:52.000 Biden had cheated on his tax returns

00:40:53.880 would I care about that not 10 days

00:40:56.960 before the 2020 election I wouldn't

00:40:59.200 because I know at a glance that

00:41:02.140 whatever Biden could get up to in tax

00:41:04.460 avoidance it would be absolutely

00:41:06.420 obliterated by comparison with what

00:41:09.000 Trump has done we know so much about

00:41:12.440 the day-to-day lives of these two men

00:41:14.620 the same could be said about sexual

00:41:16.740 scandals and there was a me too

00:41:18.700 allegation against Biden should it have

00:41:21.260 mattered not for the 2020 election it

00:41:24.100 shouldn't have because Trump had him

00:41:26.560 beat something like 29 to 1 and with

00:41:30.440 far more credible and disturbing

00:41:32.040 allegations the 2020 election was a

00:41:35.500 forced choice and the clock was

00:41:37.840 ticking I'm not a fan of Joe Biden and

00:41:41.480 I wasn't a fan of Hillary Clinton I'm a

00:41:44.060 fan of a normal range of political and

00:41:46.760 ethical chaos Trump lives far outside

00:41:50.160 that range and he's dragged us all out

00:41:52.960 there with him it is just appalling that

00:41:56.340 this man has taken up so much of

00:41:58.180 everyone's time and attention now I've

00:42:01.820 taken great pains to build an audience

00:42:04.000 that values my honest attempts to

00:42:06.000 figure things out to figure out what's

00:42:08.080 true and what's possible and what we

00:42:10.720 should do in light of what's true and

00:42:12.360 possible above all my audience expects

00:42:14.960 me to be honest and on the rare

00:42:16.820 occasions where I misspeak there is

00:42:18.800 nothing dishonest about acknowledging

00:42:20.740 that and clarifying things the truth is

00:42:24.220 given the nature of my audience this

00:42:26.720 thing that appears to be a 20 megaton

00:42:28.460 problem to my detractors on the right

00:42:30.760 is a total non-issue for me and it

00:42:35.180 will be a non-issue of something

00:42:36.620 similar happens on the left because

00:42:39.180 I've deliberately built my platforms to

00:42:41.860 be immune from backlash from the right

00:42:44.720 or the left and those of you who

00:42:47.100 subscribe to the podcast make that

00:42:49.100 possible there are no sponsors to drop

00:42:52.080 me there are no executives having a

00:42:54.540 meeting now wondering what to do about

00:42:56.220 all the controversy on Twitter there

00:42:58.600 will be no forthcoming hostage video

00:43:00.480 of me apologizing to all the people I

00:43:02.260 may have offended it is a wonderful

00:43:05.800 thing to simply be free to think out

00:43:08.960 loud and to be free to correct the

00:43:11.620 record when something gets garbled and

00:43:14.920 I truly know how lucky I am I wish

00:43:18.740 everyone was in this position thanks for

00:43:22.880 listening

00:43:23.180 time Wow

00:43:29.240 House good

00:43:30.900 anyway

00:43:37.840 I love it

00:43:40.040 I love it

00:43:41.480 I love it

00:43:41.760 you

00:43:45.240 my

00:43:45.280 I love it

00:43:45.940 you

Making Sense - Sam Harris - August 25, 2022

#293 — What I Really Think About Trump and Media Bias

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