Making Sense - Sam Harris - #325 — A Few Thoughts About RFK Jr.

R.I.K. Jr. has been everywhere of late. He has been on the All In Podcast, and some of the hosts there are friends or friends of friends or former friends, except for Tucker Carlson, who is a well-established liar. But all of these people, to one degree or another, failed to understand the problem with platforming a person like Robert Kennedy Jr. And this term platforming is now stigmatized as somehow being at odds with a commitment to free speech, right? Only someone who doesn t support free speech or who doesn't understand that sunlight is the best disinfectant would worry about platforming someone like RFK, or anyone else. Why not just talk to anybody? What could go wrong? What are you afraid of? What do you fear of? And why should you even bother to talk to him if you can't be trusted to speak honestly about important topics? And so yes, it becomes irresponsible to platform such people? And I'll show you a example of this in a moment where it becomes dangerous to do so, and I'll make a case for why you shouldn't even be talking to someone like him at all, because he's not a scientist, and isn't a scientist. But he is a lawyer and an activist. And as a lawyer, he has for the last 20 years worked rather hard to create a mood of suspicion with respect to the scientific establishment. And he thinks that the relevant corporations and think tanks that don't have personal First Amendment protections should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment. And that would allow us to enjoy the privilege of enjoying three hotspot at COT at the Hague and a war with the other criminals. And those who spread wacky ideas of which do not have the right to make arguments out of their ideas. . Those are his words may turn out to be the fullness of a wacky rightness. - Sam Harris of which I have a different relationship to making arguments that he does not have a right to spread them out. If you don't believe me, then you're a crank. ... well, maybe you should listen to his words? - What's the problem is that he doesn't have a problem with climate change? - is he a crank who should be jailed for spreading ideas that don t trust the scientific consensus on climate change, and anyone who does is a crank? What's a crack who does not trust the science there?

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris.

00:00:25.000 Okay, well, in the last housekeeping, I said I would say something about the RFK phenomenon.

00:00:35.380 I'm not going to spend too much time on this. At the moment, I don't think it merits an especially

00:00:41.440 deep treatment, but I think there's something that should be said, because RFK has been everywhere

00:00:49.260 of late. And I declined to have him on this podcast. At one point, a mutual friend reached out

00:00:55.380 offering to put us together, and I declined for the time being. You know, perhaps I will talk to

00:01:02.100 him at some point, but I hope it doesn't come to that. But he's spoken to Rogan and Jordan Peterson

00:01:08.560 and Barry Weiss and Bill Maher and Elon Musk and Tucker Carlson, I think. He was on the All In

00:01:15.600 Podcast and some of the hosts there through a fundraiser for him for his presidential campaign.

00:01:22.340 All of these people are friends or friends of friends or former friends, except for Tucker Carlson, 0.90

00:01:29.720 who, as I pointed out a few podcasts back, is just a well-established liar. I don't know how anyone

00:01:38.640 is holding him up as an honest broker of information. But all these people, to one or

00:01:44.800 another degree, failed to understand the problem with platforming a person like Robert Kennedy Jr.

00:01:53.980 And this term platforming is now stigmatized as somehow being at odds with a commitment to free

00:02:00.920 speech, right? Only someone who doesn't support free speech or who doesn't understand that sunlight is

00:02:06.640 the best disinfectant would worry about, quote, platforming a person like RFK or anyone else,

00:02:14.400 right? Why not just talk to anybody? What could go wrong? What are you afraid of? Admittedly, this

00:02:20.000 becomes somewhat understandable when a person is running for president and polling, at least according

00:02:25.840 to one poll, higher than any other person in the Democratic Party. So yes, when someone is garnering that

00:02:33.980 kind of public support or parent support, it is newsworthy and the argument for talking to them

00:02:41.760 is easier to make. But then you have to do the hard work of real journalism, right? You can't just put a

00:02:48.520 microphone in front of the guy for a few hours and hope that your bullshit detector is going to go off 0.99

00:02:52.900 at the right time. And the truth is, even if you do your homework, you can't know in real time, 0.99

00:02:59.900 you certainly can't establish in real time that someone is lying, right? And so with certain

00:03:06.080 people, and I'm afraid to say that RFK appears to be one of these people, there's such a pattern

00:03:11.940 of misrepresentation with respect to facts that you just have to decide in advance that a person can't

00:03:20.640 be trusted to speak honestly about important topics. And so yes, it becomes irresponsible to platform

00:03:28.700 such people. And I'll show you an example of this in a moment. But the general point to make here is

00:03:34.600 that there's no good reason to talk to RFK about vaccines and vaccine safety and vaccine science,

00:03:44.140 because he's not a scientist and he's not a doctor. He's a lawyer and an activist. And as a lawyer

00:03:53.060 and an activist, he has for the last 20 years worked rather hard to create a mood of suspicion

00:04:01.600 with respect to the scientific establishment. Although ironically, he's also an environmental

00:04:06.660 activist. And as Michael Shermer has pointed out, he sings an entirely different tune with respect to

00:04:12.140 established science on the topic of climate change. He goes on and on about trusting the scientific

00:04:17.340 consensus there. And anyone who doesn't is a crank. In fact, worse, a crank who should be jailed.

00:04:24.780 RFK has actually said that anyone who spreads misinformation about climate change should be

00:04:29.860 jailed. In particular, the Koch brothers. On his account, they should be prosecuted for reckless

00:04:34.960 endangerment. Now, RFK is a lawyer and he's well aware that we have a First Amendment that protects

00:04:40.200 people espousing their bad ideas. But he thinks that the relevant corporations and think tanks that don't

00:04:47.300 have personal First Amendment protections should be prosecuted and destroyed. Right? This is Exxon and Koch

00:04:54.420 Industries and the Cato Institute and the Heritage Foundation and the Heartland Institute and the American

00:05:00.520 Enterprise Institute. All of these organizations should be destroyed on his account. And anyone who's playing the

00:05:06.160 same just asking questions routine he's playing with respect to vaccines, but doing it on the topic of climate

00:05:12.280 change, he wishes we had a law that would allow us to prosecute these people. Because on his account, they should

00:05:18.980 be enjoying three hots and a cot at the Hague with the other war criminals. Right? Those are his words. Right? So all you 0.82

00:05:26.540 free speech absolutists who insist upon the wisdom of platforming the sky at every opportunity might want to reflect on

00:05:32.560 his commitment to free speech. Again, this man is an activist and a lawyer. Right? And lawyers have very

00:05:40.040 different relationships to making arguments than scientists do. So on each of these podcasts, he has spread

00:05:49.320 a host of wacky ideas. Right? Some of which may in the fullness of time turn out to be true, but most of which

00:05:57.900 certainly won't. Right? He blames SSRIs for mass shootings. He thinks that cell phones cause brain

00:06:05.280 cancer. I think he has also said that Wi-Fi causes brain cancer, but it seems that he's most concerned

00:06:10.460 about cell phones. He thinks they damage the blood-brain barrier and damage mitochondria. And he also claims

00:06:17.960 to be sitting on groundbreaking evidence for all this. He, in the past, has sounded skeptical that the HIV

00:06:24.840 virus causes AIDS. Right? He's just asking questions there. He has said that the pandemic restrictions

00:06:30.940 during COVID were part of a CIA plot to exert totalitarian control over our society. Incidentally,

00:06:37.580 he is absolutely sure that the CIA killed his uncle, JFK, and he's pretty sure the CIA killed his father,

00:06:47.720 RFK. But above all, he thinks that childhood vaccines, in particular the MMR vaccine, causes autism. And I'll talk

00:06:57.420 about that in a moment. But the problem is that he is tapping into something that is real, and which he, I think,

00:07:05.220 has appropriately diagnosed. If you listen to him talk about the pervasive distrust of institutions at this moment

00:07:13.580 in American history, and in particular, how the institutions earned this distrust in recent years,

00:07:22.120 he's right about all that. And this is something that I've talked about a lot on the podcast. So he's

00:07:28.140 messaging into an environment where there is a massive appetite for contrarian takes on more or less

00:07:36.240 than just everything. This has been an absolute boon to the misinformation cult that he has been at the center of

00:07:44.540 for two decades. Right? And this is the cult of vaccine fear. And again, the truth here is complicated, because

00:07:54.060 some vaccines have been recalled. Vaccine injury is a real thing. Some vaccines don't work as well as advertised.

00:08:02.000 Some people can't get vaccinated because they have real allergic reactions. Those people, incidentally,

00:08:08.900 rely on the rest of us to get vaccinated so they can be protected by herd immunity. The COVID vaccines

00:08:15.120 don't work as well as we hoped. The herd immunity argument goes out the window there because they don't

00:08:21.640 prevent transmission. With any medical intervention, you can always find horror stories. I mean, literally,

00:08:27.840 you can find people who have died from aspirin. And when you're talking about medical interventions

00:08:34.180 on healthy people, especially healthy kids that can sometimes go wrong, this understandably triggers

00:08:43.900 everyone's deepest fears. I let them stick a needle in my child and he died. Every parent's worst nightmare.

00:08:53.200 So it's into this schema that RFK has been spreading his lies, it seems, for 20 years. So while he can be

00:09:04.640 quite compelling in describing the national mood of distrust, listening to him on that topic is like

00:09:13.620 listening to an arsonist report from the scene of a fire which he helped start. He has been part of the

00:09:21.360 problem all along. Okay, so in particular, he thinks that the MMR vaccine causes autism because it has

00:09:29.160 mercury in it, or had mercury in it. And that is a claim that has been thoroughly debunked. It's based

00:09:37.000 on what is now acknowledged to be a scientific fraud. Andrew Wakefield published a study in the Lancet in

00:09:43.340 1998, which has since been retracted. And I believe 10 or 11 of his 12 co-authors supported the

00:09:51.540 retraction. And the evidence for its fraudulence has been established in at least one book-length

00:09:58.640 exposé. And in any case, thimerosal, the preservative with the traces of ethyl mercury, was removed from

00:10:05.460 childhood vaccines 22 years ago, in 2001, to appease the concerns of parents. And the rate of autism has

00:10:14.360 not decreased in the meantime. And also, kids who don't get vaccinated get autism. And it's also a

00:10:20.740 fact that children absorb more methylmercury, which is the natural environmental form of mercury. They get

00:10:27.020 more of that in their first months of life than they ever got ethyl mercury in the vaccines. And methylmercury

00:10:32.520 has a half-life in the bloodstream that's 10 times that of ethyl mercury. So it's more likely to do

00:10:37.880 harm. Anyway, Kennedy continues to spread fear about childhood vaccines and this spurious link to

00:10:45.960 autism. And when he is pushed by any of these podcast hosts, he says he's just asking questions or he just

00:10:52.180 wants the same scientific standards to apply to vaccines as get applied to everything else, right? But he's

00:10:58.300 not just asking questions. Again, he's spreading a mood of suspicion and fear. And he is claiming, in many

00:11:06.060 cases explicitly, but in every case at least tacitly, that the link between vaccines and autism has been

00:11:13.260 established. And certainly, he's never admitting that it has been debunked as a fraud. But this fraud gave

00:11:20.320 birth to the modern anti-vax movement. And this fraudulence appears to animate what RFK Jr. is doing

00:11:26.580 now. Because he is demonstrating a pattern of systematically misrepresenting the conclusions

00:11:33.720 of the studies he cites. And he also just appears to make things up. And the important point here is

00:11:39.580 that there's no way for a podcast host to know that he's doing that in real time. He makes claims about

00:11:47.920 the FDA and the CDC that just appear to be flat wrong. Now I'm going to read you something that Paul

00:11:54.140 Offit wrote in 2017 in Stat News, right? Paul Offit is a pediatrician and a vaccine expert. I believe

00:12:03.320 he's on the patent for the rotavirus vaccine. And Kennedy has made some crazy claims about this and

00:12:09.500 his relationship to it. Any case, Offit wrote the following in response to an interview that Kennedy

00:12:16.740 gave back in 2017. This is Offit. Kennedy also said that he wanted to ensure, quote,

00:12:24.040 that vaccines are subject to the same kind of safety scrutiny and safety testing that other drugs are

00:12:29.280 subject to, end quote. In fact, vaccines are subjected to greater scrutiny than drugs, much greater.

00:12:37.080 The CDC spends tens of millions of dollars every year on the Vaccine Safety Data Link, a system of

00:12:42.580 linked computerized medical records from several major health maintenance organizations that represents

00:12:47.360 about 7 million Americans, 500,000 of whom are children. Nothing like this exists on the drug side.

00:12:53.880 Frankly, if a drug safety data link existed, the problem with Vioxx as a cause of heart attacks

00:12:59.140 might have been picked up much sooner. Perhaps most outrageous was Kennedy's claim that, quote,

00:13:04.360 the hepatitis B vaccines that are currently approved had fewer than five days of safety testing.

00:13:09.320 That means that if the child had a seizure on the sixth day, it's never seen. If the child dies,

00:13:15.680 it's never seen, end quote. Safety monitoring for the hepatitis B vaccine, like all vaccines tested

00:13:22.520 before being licensed, involved determining the side effects in the vaccinated and unvaccinated group

00:13:27.560 for weeks after each dose. Indeed, some subsets of vaccinated individuals have been monitored for 30

00:13:33.760 years after hepatitis B vaccination, end quote. Okay, so there is Offit doing some of the laborious and

00:13:44.140 boring work of putting out just one small fire that Kennedy created in an interview. Kennedy says that

00:13:53.840 these vaccines aren't tested by the standards of ordinary drugs, whereas the opposite has been the case.

00:13:59.340 And then recently on the Rogan podcast, Kennedy attacked Paul Offit by name, claiming that he

00:14:06.080 had made $186 million with Merck based on his rotavirus vaccine. This is what Offit recently wrote in

00:14:13.880 response to that. RFK Jr.'s statement about my $186 million deal with Merck was a complete and utter lie,

00:14:21.700 and it's resulted in hate mail, physical altercations with anti-vaccine activists, and three death

00:14:28.240 threats. One caller threatened my children. By falsely labeling me as someone willing to line my

00:14:33.960 pockets at the expense of children's health, RFK Jr. put both me and my family at risk. Before our

00:14:40.740 rotavirus vaccine was recommended by both the CDC and the World Health Organization for all infants in 2006,

00:14:46.760 rotavirus killed about 2,000 children every day in the world. Our vaccine is estimated to save hundreds

00:14:53.200 of lives every day. It's the professional accomplishment of which I'm most proud. What

00:14:58.700 exactly has Robert F. Kennedy Jr. accomplished? Using the platform of a famous name, he's chosen to lie

00:15:04.800 about vaccines and vaccine safety, no doubt putting children in harm's way. Now he's running for

00:15:10.720 president of the United States, end quote. So again, that's the problem. He's messaging into this fever

00:15:20.580 dream of distrust and frank fear, and all these other podcasters and people like Elon Musk are doing

00:15:31.060 the same. What we desperately need at this point is a CDC and an FDA that we can trust. And insofar as

00:15:42.040 the basis for trust has really eroded, we have to fix that. But what we do not need is someone like

00:15:49.580 Elon Musk dunking on vaccine experts in front of 140 million people and putting their lives at risk,

00:15:56.400 as he recently did with a different doctor, Peter Hotez. And we don't need people like Joe Rogan

00:16:03.340 giving another four hours to a just asking questions routine. Because again, people like RFK

00:16:09.600 are not just asking questions. They make shit up. Here's an example. This is from Jordan Peterson's 0.99

00:16:17.480 podcast. And if you haven't heard RFK before, he's got a vocal condition called spasmodic dysphonia,

00:16:23.600 the effects of which you will certainly notice. Listen to the anecdote he tells here.

00:16:29.140 I've seen again and again and again, you know, people like Jake Tapper, who did this,

00:16:35.280 who worked with me for three weeks doing this incredible documentary on an article that I

00:16:40.380 published in 2005 about a secret meeting at DEC sponsored with 75 vaccine makers about how to hide

00:16:49.180 from the American public the links between autism and vaccines. They, they, and I, I obtained the

00:16:54.660 transcript for these from those meetings. I published them in Rolling Stone and Jake Tapper prior as the

00:17:02.660 Rolling Stone publication data approach, he spent three weeks with me doing an exclusive for ABC,

00:17:09.720 which he was then working for on my article, a companion piece. And the night before the piece was

00:17:16.820 supposed to run, he called me up and he said, the piece just got killed by corporate. And he said,

00:17:22.400 in all my career, I have never had a piece killed by corporate. And I'm so mad. And then, uh, after

00:17:30.640 that, I called him, I called him the next day and he went dark and I've never spoken to him again,

00:17:35.740 but he's become kind of this shill for pharma since then. So, um, and I've watched that happen to so

00:17:41.760 many, uh, you know, uh, announcers on TV. Now, in response to this, Jake Tapper wrote an article

00:17:49.820 on the CNN website titled RFK Jr.'s reign of error, correcting the record about yet another false

00:17:56.420 claim he just made. I'll just read what Tapper wrote here because only Tapper was in a position to

00:18:03.320 know that what Kennedy was telling Peterson on that podcast was a lie. This is Tapper. Now,

00:18:09.800 Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a Democratic candidate for the presidency, went on the Jordan B. Peterson

00:18:15.160 podcast on June 5th and told a wild and false story about me from 2005 that I want to tell you

00:18:21.920 about. RFK Jr. has made so many false and wild claims about any number of vital topics, most

00:18:27.480 dangerously about childhood vaccines, per his own siblings, that my interaction with him 18 years ago

00:18:32.960 is small potatoes. He told the story as, quote, evidence of TV news networks trying to censor the

00:18:39.520 truth when it came to vaccines. In it, he mangles the facts and wildly misrepresents what actually

00:18:45.060 happened. The truth about it is instructive because of how untethered he is to facts.

00:18:50.000 Flashback to 2005. Kennedy was co-publishing a piece on Salon.com and Rolling Stone with his

00:18:56.080 spurious, since-disproven claims about autism and vaccines. After amending the story with five

00:19:01.580 significant corrections, Salon.com ultimately took it down. Rolling Stone, too, removed the piece,

00:19:06.940 but with less transparency. As Seth Mnookin wrote for Scientific American in 2017, quote,

00:19:13.480 Kennedy made his name in the anti-vaccine movement in 2005 when he published a story alleging a massive

00:19:19.620 conspiracy regarding thimerizal, a mercury-based preservative that had been removed from all

00:19:25.100 childhood vaccines except for some variations of the flu vaccine in 2001. In his piece, Kennedy

00:19:31.080 completely ignored an Institute of Medicine Immunization Safety Review on thimerizal, published

00:19:36.680 the previous year. He's also ignored the nine studies funded or conducted by the Centers for Disease

00:19:41.720 Control and Prevention that have taken place since 2003. This is back to Tapper now. Among the many,

00:19:47.900 many errors, as CBS News reported, quote, Kennedy's Rolling Stone article originally said that the link

00:19:53.660 between thimerizal and the epidemic of childhood neurological disorders is real, but since the Lancet retracted

00:19:59.400 the original piece of research that made that link, and since the British Medical Journal then revealed

00:20:03.760 that the study wasn't merely a mistake but an outright fraud, the entire notion that vaccination

00:20:08.620 and autism are somehow linked has been thoroughly debunked. So back to 2005. I was a reporter with ABC News,

00:20:16.840 and Salon.com reached out to see if we were interested in doing a TV spot tied to the publication of the

00:20:22.180 Kennedy Jr. piece. I interviewed him via phone with a TV crew in his office and prepared a spot for World News

00:20:28.340 Tonight with Peter Jennings. In Kennedy's bizarre retelling a few days ago, and I just played you

00:20:33.660 that relevant clip, I worked with him, quote, for three weeks doing this incredible documentary,

00:20:39.920 end quote. No and no about his Rolling Stone story. Please note he makes zero mention of the article

00:20:46.460 having since been retracted and disappeared. And then, quote, the night before the piece was supposed

00:20:51.440 to run, he called me up and said, the piece just got killed by corporate, end quote. I didn't say that

00:20:57.540 in any way, and the piece wasn't killed. This is back to Kennedy's attribution to Tapper, quote, all my

00:21:03.900 career I've never had a piece killed by corporate, and I'm so mad, end quote. Back to Tapper here. I

00:21:09.900 hadn't. I had been at ABC News for two years. I had plenty of pieces killed. Not once did corporate

00:21:16.520 play a role in killing any of them. This is more Tapper here. RFK has been misrepresenting the

00:21:22.440 content of this call for years. I told him we were holding the story for a day. Now, in his retelling,

00:21:28.220 a two-minute piece was, quote, an incredible documentary. A few days of work was three weeks.

00:21:34.920 One remote interview was me working intensely with him, and a piece that got delayed one day so we

00:21:40.900 could interview some actual experts is a piece that got killed. For the record, the piece aired June

00:21:46.280 22nd, 2005. But the important point is, there's no way for Jordan Peterson or any other podcast host

00:21:54.640 to know this in advance. And this kind of thing just trips off Kennedy's tongue and, again, creates a

00:22:02.620 mood of suspicion. This anecdote is perfect for seeming to shine light on the bad incentives that

00:22:10.460 govern the behavior of the pharmaceutical industry, right? He's just exposing the corruption

00:22:15.480 and the conflicts of interest. Everybody's just trying to get rich. They're just trying to sell

00:22:21.060 you medicine. Dangerous, ineffective medicine. And, again, the problem is there is some truth to this

00:22:27.320 bad incentive story, which I've discussed previously on this podcast. But the further truth is the drug

00:22:33.920 approval story is quite mixed. Half the time it's a story not of dangerous and ineffective drugs being

00:22:41.560 rushed to market so that pharmaceutical companies can profit off the ignorance and vulnerability of a

00:22:46.840 trusting public. Again, there may be some of that. And wherever it exists, we should stamp it out. But

00:22:53.400 rather often, the opposite happens, right? There's a galling sluggishness in the drug approval process.

00:23:00.460 There are sick people who are desperate for new medications. You know, there are drugs that are

00:23:05.400 approved in Europe that are not approved in the U.S. And this is really frustrating. That is the opposite

00:23:11.620 problem. That is not people rushing to get rich. That is regulators being too cautious or seeming to

00:23:17.980 be too cautious. So, while Kennedy says many things that are demonstrably false about vaccines and science,

00:23:25.760 his account of why he's getting so much traction strikes me as absolutely correct. Again, he is speaking

00:23:32.560 to this pervasive mistrust of institutions and so-called elites. He is consciously pandering to

00:23:40.980 the cynicism that has taken hold in so much of this country. And he's raising real concerns about

00:23:46.660 things like wealth inequality. And the stuff he says about U.S. foreign policy is in a similar way

00:23:52.420 a very mixed story, right? There's no question he's capable of spouting Kremlin propaganda. But it is also

00:24:00.940 totally valid to criticize the last 20 years of U.S. foreign policy. And if I've changed my mind about

00:24:07.320 anything in this space, I have grown much more skeptical of the very idea of nation-building.

00:24:14.020 Many people have drawn the same lesson from our misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.

00:24:20.240 The fact that we spent trillions of dollars over there trying to change cultures that were powerfully

00:24:26.560 resistant to change. There's no question that that's worth rethinking. But again, he does not show

00:24:34.440 the kind of concern for facts that one wants when talking about this sort of thing or about anything

00:24:40.700 else. Anyway, that's all I have to say about RFK for the moment. Concern about platforming people

00:24:47.520 is, in my view, still totally valid. And there are certain people that one shouldn't talk to

00:24:55.640 unless one is going to do the work to fully calibrate one's bullshit detector in advance

00:25:01.420 and expose the pattern of sloppiness with the facts and even outright lying that has preceded 0.87

00:25:08.980 that interview. And if you're not going to do that work, you are being irresponsible. You're not just

00:25:14.660 exposing the reasons why many in your audience distrust science and the scientific establishment

00:25:22.560 and public health organizations. You've become part of the reasons why they distrust these sources

00:25:29.000 of information. And that is moving all of us in the wrong direction. Again, we need institutions that

00:25:35.300 work. And so far as they don't, we have to figure that out. Spreading obvious lies and misinformation

00:25:41.440 and fear is not a method of doing that. To move this to an entirely different topic for a moment.

00:25:47.920 Yes, racism is a real problem in society. And inequality is highly correlated with race

00:25:56.420 for obvious historical reasons in America. There are problems that really have to be sorted out

00:26:02.480 there. But spreading false information about racism, anti-racist lies, activist bullshit is not a method 0.96

00:26:12.980 of solving those problems, right? The Robin D'Angelo's of the world, the Ibram Kendi's of the world 0.99

00:26:18.100 are not helping. To platform them and have them bloviate about fake examples of racism doesn't help.

00:26:26.860 It's a very similar problem.

Making Sense - Sam Harris - July 03, 2023

#325 — A Few Thoughts About RFK Jr.

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