Making Sense - Sam Harris - #329 — What Happened to the Republican Party？

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.880 This is Sam Harris.

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00:00:47.400 Apologies for The Voice.

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00:00:53.200 Second time having COVID.

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00:00:58.500 But it has kept me off the mic until this moment.

00:01:01.720 I'll try to keep this short.

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00:01:43.960 Okay.

00:01:44.400 Today, I'm speaking with Brett Stevens.

00:01:48.360 Brett is currently a columnist for the New York Times,

00:01:51.900 which he came to after a long career at the Wall Street Journal.

00:01:55.440 Before that, he was the editor-in-chief of the Jerusalem Post,

00:01:59.120 and he's had a long-standing career in journalism,

00:02:02.720 reporting from all over the world

00:02:04.240 and interviewing scores of world leaders.

00:02:07.700 He's also the author of the book,

00:02:09.480 America in Retreat,

00:02:11.280 The New Isolationism and the Coming Global Disorder.

00:02:15.020 He is the recipient of numerous awards and distinctions,

00:02:18.500 including two honorary doctorates

00:02:20.320 and a Pulitzer Prize.

00:02:22.880 Anyway, Brett and I speak about the current state of the Republican Party.

00:02:26.760 Brett was among the few courageous, never-Trump Republicans,

00:02:30.480 and he wound up leaving the Wall Street Journal

00:02:32.140 over differences of opinion there.

00:02:34.240 We discuss the strange change that has occurred in the Republican Party.

00:02:38.960 We talk about attitudes toward Putin,

00:02:41.640 the influence of Tucker Carlson,

00:02:43.020 the war in Ukraine,

00:02:45.120 the failures of elites and experts,

00:02:47.440 the tension between concerns about misinformation and free speech,

00:02:51.580 the Hunter Biden laptop,

00:02:53.580 the 2024 presidential election,

00:02:56.260 how Trump captured the Republican Party,

00:02:58.720 the criminal charges against him,

00:03:00.620 and the future of conservatism in America.

00:03:03.080 And now I bring you Brett Stevens.

00:03:10.700 I am here with Brett Stevens.

00:03:12.680 Brett, thanks for joining me.

00:03:14.600 Good to be on your show, Sam.

00:03:15.600 You recently wrote an op-ed in your column in the New York Times

00:03:22.240 about your recent trip to Ukraine,

00:03:24.880 which is the proximate cause of this conversation.

00:03:28.580 I want to get into that,

00:03:29.580 but I think it probably will allow us to talk more broadly

00:03:33.780 about what's happened to us politically in the U.S.

00:03:38.060 and just what's happened to the Republican Party

00:03:40.280 and how our conversation about Ukraine and other topics

00:03:44.420 has grown so weird.

00:03:46.600 But before we jump into that,

00:03:48.240 perhaps you can summarize your background

00:03:50.560 as a journalist and a writer.

00:03:53.540 Oh, let's see.

00:03:55.740 Born in New York City,

00:03:57.460 raised in Mexico City,

00:03:59.220 which is a story unto itself.

00:04:01.420 University of Chicago for a college,

00:04:04.520 London School of Economics,

00:04:05.780 started working at the Wall Street Journal in the late 1990s,

00:04:08.280 worked for them in New York and Brussels

00:04:12.820 before leaving for the Jerusalem Post,

00:04:16.380 where I was the editor-in-chief during the Second Intifada

00:04:19.420 about 20, 21 years ago.

00:04:21.840 Returned to the Wall Street Journal

00:04:23.300 as a foreign affairs columnist

00:04:26.240 and a member of the editorial board,

00:04:28.460 and was very happily ensconced there

00:04:31.500 until Donald Trump

00:04:33.440 and pretty much left the journal

00:04:35.820 over, I guess, what you call creative differences

00:04:38.660 about our view of the former,

00:04:41.560 hopefully not future president,

00:04:43.540 and came to the New York Times,

00:04:46.200 where I've been for a little over six years

00:04:48.040 as an op-ed columnist.

00:04:50.720 I write a lot about foreign policy

00:04:52.260 and try to visit the places I write about.

00:04:56.360 And so Ukraine was my most recent foreign travel.

00:04:59.660 How old were you when you left Mexico?

00:05:02.880 Well, I left to boarding school when I was 14,

00:05:05.820 but I didn't really leave the country.

00:05:07.340 It was still my home

00:05:09.240 until I was practically in college,

00:05:12.020 so 17 or 18.

00:05:13.640 Interesting.

00:05:14.380 I guess I've heard you talk about that before,

00:05:17.100 but I'm not sure how widely known

00:05:18.880 that backstory is.

00:05:20.320 It's an interesting counterpoint

00:05:22.060 to some ways in which

00:05:24.560 you probably get maligned

00:05:26.300 as a person associated

00:05:28.920 with the center-right side of politics.

00:05:32.700 Yeah, you know, it's funny.

00:05:33.780 I was chatting with a colleague of mine.

00:05:36.860 I won't say who,

00:05:38.060 but a colleague of mine,

00:05:39.460 well-known columnist at the Times,

00:05:41.080 and he said,

00:05:41.420 you know, if I had to place you politically,

00:05:44.120 I'd say you're center-left.

00:05:45.520 I was shocked.

00:05:46.980 I tend to think of myself

00:05:48.520 as center-center-right,

00:05:50.940 although the last five or six years,

00:05:53.840 I've probably shifted a little bit to the left.

00:05:56.840 It's not so much a shift.

00:05:58.340 It's that the Republican Party

00:06:00.640 has moved so far to the right for me

00:06:03.000 that I feel just deeply alienated from it.

00:06:06.800 Yeah, we'll talk about that

00:06:08.180 because needless to say I understand.

00:06:11.320 And what did you study in school?

00:06:13.880 I studied, really,

00:06:15.120 I studied political philosophy.

00:06:16.900 There was a special name to the program,

00:06:18.980 but that was basically

00:06:19.960 what I was mainly interested in.

00:06:21.700 So, I guess let's start with Ukraine

00:06:25.880 as the jumping-off point.

00:06:28.480 You know, I've been fairly mystified,

00:06:31.860 I guess, previous to the recent war in Ukraine.

00:06:35.740 I was mystified by the fact

00:06:38.280 that Putin and similar figures

00:06:41.600 became darlings of,

00:06:44.200 I hesitate to say the right,

00:06:47.440 because I guess I don't totally understand

00:06:49.780 how right and left work now

00:06:52.220 as polls politically

00:06:54.060 because so many things are now upside down.

00:06:56.480 But it used to be that the Republican Party

00:06:58.640 was the party that imagined

00:07:00.820 it had won the Cold War

00:07:02.100 and you would expect

00:07:03.720 Putin would be among the last people

00:07:05.900 to be celebrated among Republicans.

00:07:09.300 And yet he was,

00:07:10.940 and then, you know,

00:07:11.520 his invasion of Ukraine

00:07:13.080 is often talked about among Republicans

00:07:15.840 as something that we provoked

00:07:17.600 because it's only sensible

00:07:19.980 for a man like Putin

00:07:21.680 to worry about NATO expansion

00:07:23.360 and even to think that Ukraine

00:07:26.040 isn't necessarily a country

00:07:28.040 and really should be reabsorbed

00:07:30.040 by Mother Russia.

00:07:30.920 Before we talk about your trip itself,

00:07:33.920 what do you make about

00:07:34.920 what has happened

00:07:36.320 to the Republican Party

00:07:38.200 with respect to topics like

00:07:40.800 Putin and America's influence abroad?

00:07:45.360 I mean, they've almost swapped positions

00:07:47.700 with Democrats

00:07:49.160 when you're talking about

00:07:50.760 the prospect of America

00:07:52.520 projecting any sort of power

00:07:54.380 to maintain a rules-based

00:07:57.820 international order.

00:07:59.500 So it's one of the great

00:08:00.500 weirdnesses of our day.

00:08:02.780 I mean, I wrote my first

00:08:04.860 anti-Putin editorial

00:08:06.000 for the Wall Street Journal's

00:08:07.200 editorial page

00:08:08.040 at the very end of 1999

00:08:09.880 and would get into arguments

00:08:12.660 with figures on the left,

00:08:15.620 particularly writers

00:08:16.660 for places like The Nation

00:08:18.780 on the threat

00:08:20.360 that Putin constituted.

00:08:22.440 I remember writing a column

00:08:24.420 in 2006 titled

00:08:26.220 Russia's Becoming an Enemy

00:08:27.540 of the United States

00:08:28.580 and all of the flack

00:08:29.980 I took from that column

00:08:31.140 was from the left.

00:08:33.960 And the switch really

00:08:35.060 came about

00:08:36.020 with the ascendancy

00:08:38.420 of Donald Trump.

00:08:40.760 I think we should be careful

00:08:41.880 because there are still

00:08:42.780 a lot of Republicans,

00:08:44.320 you know,

00:08:44.860 the Mitch McConnells

00:08:45.900 of the world

00:08:46.940 who are just as anti-Putin

00:08:49.560 as Jake Sullivan

00:08:51.560 and Tony Blinken

00:08:52.860 and other Democrats.

00:08:55.180 But what I think has happened

00:08:57.240 is in keeping with the fact

00:08:58.880 that the Republican Party,

00:09:01.980 which starting with Eisenhower

00:09:04.460 and maybe even before

00:09:05.320 Arthur Vandenberg

00:09:06.240 and his alliance

00:09:08.080 with Harry Truman,

00:09:10.640 the Republican Party

00:09:11.560 went from being

00:09:12.400 a kind of a conservative

00:09:14.000 internationalist party

00:09:15.600 to reverting

00:09:17.460 to what it had been

00:09:18.500 in the pre-war,

00:09:19.600 pre-World War II years,

00:09:20.800 an isolationist

00:09:22.720 or what I call

00:09:24.640 truculent nationalism.

00:09:26.940 And to the extent

00:09:28.160 that in Vladimir Putin

00:09:29.520 they see a model

00:09:31.080 of truculent nationalism,

00:09:33.640 a lot of Republicans,

00:09:34.960 certainly of the

00:09:35.680 Tucker Carlson stripe,

00:09:37.540 if that's the right name for it,

00:09:40.560 find a lot to admire.

00:09:42.080 They like the xenophobia.

00:09:43.860 They like the strongman ethic.

00:09:46.000 They have this perception

00:09:47.160 that Putin is anti-Muslim.

00:09:49.520 I think that plays a part of it.

00:09:51.880 There's a kind of cult

00:09:52.960 of machismo.

00:09:54.240 I mean, I don't want

00:09:55.180 to get too deep

00:09:55.820 into the psychosexual aspect of it,

00:09:57.760 but it's clearly,

00:09:59.040 I think, an element there.

00:10:00.920 And there is a sort of

00:10:02.900 old-fashioned quasi-isolationism,

00:10:05.680 which is let Putin

00:10:07.120 do whatever he wants

00:10:08.520 in Ukraine

00:10:09.580 so that we can do

00:10:11.060 whatever we want in Mexico.

00:10:12.840 It's kind of back

00:10:13.640 to the spheres of influence

00:10:14.940 mentality of the 19th century.

00:10:16.840 You mentioned Tucker.

00:10:18.560 What has his role been here?

00:10:21.860 I guess the thing that,

00:10:23.580 you know,

00:10:23.800 I tend not to pay

00:10:24.780 much attention to Tucker,

00:10:25.900 but when his texts

00:10:28.640 were leaked

00:10:29.580 in the Dominion lawsuit

00:10:31.160 and we saw

00:10:32.000 that behind the scenes

00:10:33.420 he actually reviled Trump,

00:10:36.460 the thing that I took away

00:10:37.860 from that,

00:10:38.280 which I'm still astonished by,

00:10:40.560 is that this is someone

00:10:41.840 who has more or less

00:10:43.180 shilled for Trump for years

00:10:44.980 and cultivated a

00:10:46.840 an audience

00:10:47.460 that's squarely

00:10:48.420 in Trump's personality cult.

00:10:51.300 Yet now it's divulged

00:10:53.020 that he considers Trump

00:10:54.600 a demonic figure

00:10:55.780 who he, you know,

00:10:56.560 hates with every fiber

00:10:58.120 in his being

00:10:58.720 or some such phrasing.

00:11:00.960 And yet his audience

00:11:02.520 doesn't seem to care

00:11:03.980 about the hypocrisy

00:11:06.120 and, you know,

00:11:06.960 total lack of integrity

00:11:08.760 as someone who,

00:11:09.780 whose brand seems to be

00:11:11.780 integrity.

00:11:12.920 I'll tell you the truth

00:11:14.120 that no one wants to tell you

00:11:15.460 because I'm not owned

00:11:16.640 by anybody.

00:11:17.980 What do you make of the fact

00:11:18.920 that his audience

00:11:20.440 doesn't care

00:11:21.280 that, you know,

00:11:22.780 the curtain has been

00:11:23.420 pulled back

00:11:24.100 and he's a liar

00:11:25.980 of, you know,

00:11:26.940 a very Trumpian sort?

00:11:28.460 I mean, I knew Tucker

00:11:30.180 slightly when he was,

00:11:32.180 I was at the Wall Street Journal

00:11:33.420 and he was at Fox

00:11:35.180 and we were literally

00:11:36.740 under the same roof

00:11:37.920 under News Corp.

00:11:39.580 And my impression

00:11:40.460 of him was,

00:11:42.420 I remember saying this

00:11:43.840 the first time

00:11:45.020 I met him,

00:11:46.720 I said this to my wife

00:11:48.220 or someone,

00:11:48.620 I said,

00:11:49.300 I've never met anyone

00:11:50.240 as cynical as this guy.

00:11:52.360 That, you know,

00:11:52.980 his principal aim

00:11:54.220 is sort of to advance

00:11:55.260 his brand

00:11:55.980 and whether that means

00:11:57.080 coming across

00:11:57.840 as a kind of

00:11:59.120 bow-tied

00:11:59.940 William F. Buckley

00:12:01.060 wannabe

00:12:01.580 or, you know,

00:12:03.560 feverish,

00:12:04.380 populist,

00:12:05.740 angry everyman.

00:12:06.920 He'll do whatever it is

00:12:08.320 to advance the cause

00:12:09.840 of himself

00:12:11.020 irrespective

00:12:12.040 of a point of view.

00:12:13.580 But the

00:12:13.920 isolationism,

00:12:17.660 the nationalism,

00:12:18.400 that's been there

00:12:19.140 for, I think,

00:12:20.300 a fairly long time.

00:12:21.600 I know for a fact

00:12:22.380 that it predates Trump

00:12:24.280 because I once was

00:12:25.120 in an argument

00:12:26.440 about Afghanistan

00:12:27.640 with him.

00:12:29.560 Look,

00:12:29.980 part of being a cynic

00:12:32.120 and I think part

00:12:33.320 of the appeal

00:12:33.960 of cynics

00:12:34.640 is when you're

00:12:36.600 basically saying

00:12:37.560 it's all a lie,

00:12:38.840 it's all bullshit,

00:12:41.340 let's all be in

00:12:42.960 on the fact

00:12:43.540 that everything

00:12:44.100 is a form

00:12:44.880 of manipulation.

00:12:47.240 It's weirdly easy

00:12:48.840 to win converts

00:12:50.380 because you're

00:12:51.580 sort of inviting

00:12:52.460 your audience

00:12:53.160 into the pretense

00:12:55.400 of a secret knowledge

00:12:56.540 that everything

00:12:57.820 is for show,

00:12:58.860 there's nothing

00:12:59.920 really true,

00:13:01.700 and the only thing

00:13:02.520 that exists

00:13:03.060 is power

00:13:03.760 and your need

00:13:04.860 to advance

00:13:05.680 your power

00:13:06.240 at the expense

00:13:06.940 of the other side,

00:13:09.460 the other team.

00:13:10.700 And I think

00:13:10.980 that's really

00:13:11.520 what Tucker

00:13:12.860 is peddling,

00:13:15.060 which is why

00:13:15.520 he's such a

00:13:16.420 sort of uniquely

00:13:17.180 toxic ideologue

00:13:19.480 for the MAGA movement.

00:13:20.820 I mean,

00:13:21.460 that he hates

00:13:22.140 Trump,

00:13:22.660 that's true,

00:13:23.660 that he adores

00:13:24.360 Trump,

00:13:24.800 that's true as well,

00:13:25.920 it just depends

00:13:26.580 on what serves

00:13:28.240 his particular interest

00:13:29.340 at any time.

00:13:30.220 And Trump,

00:13:30.740 frankly,

00:13:31.200 kind of peddles

00:13:32.540 the same point

00:13:33.760 of view.

00:13:34.880 You know,

00:13:35.180 when I was

00:13:36.380 in college,

00:13:38.120 the Cold War

00:13:38.760 had just ended,

00:13:39.820 I entered college

00:13:41.480 the same year

00:13:42.040 the Soviet Union

00:13:42.760 collapsed,

00:13:43.940 and for a variety

00:13:45.680 of reasons,

00:13:46.200 I developed this interest

00:13:47.660 in the mid-20th century

00:13:50.600 literature

00:13:51.100 by anti-totalitarian

00:13:52.840 writers,

00:13:54.240 people like

00:13:54.920 Hannah Arendt

00:13:56.800 and Miloš

00:13:58.560 and a bunch

00:14:00.160 of other figures,

00:14:01.240 both from behind

00:14:02.540 the Iron Curtain,

00:14:03.360 Václav Havel,

00:14:04.400 and in the free world,

00:14:06.420 who really thought

00:14:07.160 deeply about

00:14:08.060 the totalitarian

00:14:10.080 phenomenon.

00:14:11.460 And what has

00:14:12.340 struck me profoundly

00:14:13.640 in the last

00:14:14.240 five or six years

00:14:15.200 is how

00:14:15.660 the psychological

00:14:16.800 categories,

00:14:18.340 the desire

00:14:19.300 to obey,

00:14:21.080 the desire

00:14:21.600 to be,

00:14:22.800 the willingness

00:14:23.660 to be misled

00:14:25.240 so long as

00:14:25.860 you're made

00:14:27.120 to feel

00:14:27.500 as if you belong,

00:14:29.080 that those

00:14:29.700 methods

00:14:30.760 by which

00:14:31.320 totalitarian

00:14:32.260 or post-totalitarian

00:14:33.480 societies

00:14:34.160 were able

00:14:34.800 to rule

00:14:35.480 and to stay

00:14:36.040 in power,

00:14:37.080 that those

00:14:37.560 in effect

00:14:38.380 recall,

00:14:39.900 or,

00:14:40.920 well,

00:14:41.600 the Trump playbook

00:14:42.940 recalls

00:14:43.660 those methods.

00:14:44.440 It's to an

00:14:45.660 eerie degree

00:14:46.400 and it's really

00:14:46.960 worth rereading

00:14:47.840 those books.

00:14:49.400 Yeah, well,

00:14:49.660 I want to get back

00:14:50.540 to Trump

00:14:51.380 and perhaps

00:14:52.060 we can talk

00:14:52.520 about his

00:14:53.040 current legal

00:14:54.420 troubles

00:14:54.860 and whether

00:14:55.400 the left

00:14:56.620 is getting

00:14:57.620 too confident

00:14:58.320 that he will

00:14:59.380 actually pay

00:15:00.560 for anything

00:15:01.240 that he has

00:15:01.700 done

00:15:01.980 or attempted

00:15:03.340 to do.

00:15:04.220 But before

00:15:05.320 we pivot

00:15:06.060 back to that,

00:15:07.240 let's talk

00:15:07.720 about Ukraine.

00:15:09.120 Can you

00:15:09.460 just give

00:15:10.380 me the

00:15:11.000 moral

00:15:11.900 and geopolitical

00:15:13.440 case

00:15:13.880 for our

00:15:14.500 support

00:15:15.000 of Ukraine?

00:15:16.460 I think

00:15:16.720 in Ukraine

00:15:17.280 our moral

00:15:18.180 interests

00:15:18.700 almost wholly

00:15:19.840 coincide

00:15:20.680 with our

00:15:21.640 national

00:15:23.020 interest.

00:15:23.960 We have

00:15:24.560 a moral

00:15:25.160 interest

00:15:25.640 in defending

00:15:26.960 a victimized

00:15:28.720 state

00:15:29.400 against

00:15:30.500 a

00:15:31.280 authoritarian

00:15:32.180 bully

00:15:33.340 who has

00:15:34.160 no regard

00:15:35.480 for any

00:15:36.680 ordinary

00:15:37.640 norms

00:15:38.200 of law

00:15:39.380 or laws

00:15:40.680 of warfare

00:15:41.880 or human

00:15:42.980 rights.

00:15:44.020 And we

00:15:44.320 also have

00:15:44.860 a vital

00:15:45.240 national

00:15:45.700 interest

00:15:46.200 in showing

00:15:46.840 that we

00:15:47.520 are prepared

00:15:48.040 to defend

00:15:48.840 embattled

00:15:50.200 democracies

00:15:51.140 in the face

00:15:52.020 of this

00:15:52.740 kind of

00:15:53.180 aggression,

00:15:54.280 not just

00:15:54.840 for the

00:15:55.180 sake of

00:15:55.680 Ukrainians,

00:15:56.580 but for

00:15:57.040 the sake

00:15:57.540 of whoever

00:15:58.100 it is

00:15:59.260 that autocrats

00:16:00.080 like Putin,

00:16:00.960 but also

00:16:01.460 Xi and

00:16:02.260 maybe

00:16:02.540 Khamenei

00:16:03.240 and Iran

00:16:03.980 want to

00:16:05.660 attack next.

00:16:06.880 So Xi

00:16:07.800 is looking

00:16:08.280 very carefully

00:16:08.980 at the

00:16:09.340 outcome

00:16:09.820 of Ukraine

00:16:11.180 to determine

00:16:12.280 whether he's

00:16:12.920 going to

00:16:13.340 strike Taiwan

00:16:14.400 and if

00:16:15.920 Putin is

00:16:16.940 allowed to

00:16:17.600 win or at

00:16:18.220 least to

00:16:18.580 keep his

00:16:19.000 gains and

00:16:19.640 freeze the

00:16:20.160 conflict,

00:16:21.300 we will be

00:16:21.960 in greater

00:16:22.720 danger,

00:16:23.600 not less,

00:16:24.380 which is why

00:16:24.920 doing the

00:16:25.340 right thing

00:16:25.760 by the

00:16:26.080 Ukrainians

00:16:26.600 is also

00:16:27.040 doing the

00:16:27.480 right thing

00:16:28.000 by the

00:16:28.600 American

00:16:28.880 people.

00:16:30.140 What do

00:16:30.260 you make

00:16:30.560 of the

00:16:30.820 claim

00:16:31.240 that we

00:16:32.720 quite

00:16:33.520 irresponsibly

00:16:34.500 provoked

00:16:35.720 Putin?

00:16:36.720 I mean,

00:16:36.960 it was our

00:16:37.500 own failures

00:16:38.100 of diplomacy,

00:16:39.600 our own

00:16:40.200 provocative

00:16:40.880 dangling of

00:16:42.080 the prospect

00:16:42.760 of Ukraine's

00:16:43.700 membership in

00:16:44.300 NATO.

00:16:44.880 We basically

00:16:45.860 gave Putin

00:16:47.000 no choice

00:16:47.840 but to

00:16:48.320 invade.

00:16:49.040 There was

00:16:49.260 no prospect

00:16:50.000 of Ukrainian

00:16:50.660 membership in

00:16:51.500 NATO,

00:16:51.900 none whatever,

00:16:52.980 and Putin

00:16:53.480 knew it

00:16:54.620 perfectly well.

00:16:55.920 The subject

00:16:56.400 was raised

00:16:57.000 in 2008

00:16:58.280 and then

00:16:58.840 buried

00:16:59.220 afterwards.

00:17:00.560 Even now,

00:17:01.280 there's really

00:17:02.440 not much

00:17:02.840 of a

00:17:03.060 prospect

00:17:03.400 of at

00:17:03.760 least

00:17:03.880 near-term

00:17:04.340 Ukrainian

00:17:04.740 membership

00:17:05.220 in NATO.

00:17:06.680 I guess

00:17:07.860 that's the

00:17:08.300 Mearsheimer

00:17:08.780 hypothesis.

00:17:10.100 I think

00:17:10.420 that's simply

00:17:10.940 false.

00:17:11.660 The truth

00:17:12.080 is,

00:17:12.360 you can

00:17:12.760 go back

00:17:13.220 to the

00:17:13.480 1990s

00:17:14.260 and say

00:17:14.580 that we

00:17:15.100 provoked

00:17:16.200 Russia

00:17:16.680 when we

00:17:18.000 decided

00:17:18.460 to invite

00:17:19.180 the Baltic

00:17:20.200 states

00:17:20.640 and Poland

00:17:21.460 and some

00:17:21.900 of the

00:17:22.080 old Warsaw

00:17:22.580 Pact

00:17:22.880 members

00:17:23.300 into the

00:17:24.540 NATO

00:17:24.800 alliance.

00:17:25.980 The truth

00:17:26.380 is,

00:17:26.600 these

00:17:26.740 countries

00:17:27.100 wanted to

00:17:27.760 be in

00:17:28.300 the

00:17:28.760 NATO

00:17:29.020 alliance

00:17:29.400 because

00:17:29.660 they knew

00:17:30.800 very well

00:17:31.440 looking at

00:17:31.920 their own

00:17:32.240 history

00:17:32.660 that if

00:17:33.440 they didn't

00:17:33.740 have the

00:17:34.420 guarantee

00:17:34.820 of Western

00:17:36.420 security,

00:17:37.160 of American

00:17:37.560 security,

00:17:38.800 Russia would

00:17:39.420 reemerge as

00:17:40.200 a great

00:17:40.580 power and

00:17:41.460 Russia's

00:17:42.320 history as

00:17:43.200 a great

00:17:43.480 power has

00:17:43.960 been one

00:17:44.420 of constant

00:17:45.280 aggression,

00:17:45.960 not just

00:17:46.320 under the

00:17:47.320 communists,

00:17:47.880 but going

00:17:48.180 back to

00:17:48.540 the Tsarist

00:17:49.100 era.

00:17:49.960 Poland

00:17:50.180 disappeared

00:17:50.720 for a

00:17:51.340 couple of

00:17:51.740 hundred

00:17:51.960 years.

00:17:53.100 So,

00:17:53.420 NATO

00:17:53.780 has and

00:17:54.900 has always

00:17:55.500 been a

00:17:55.940 defensive

00:17:56.340 alliance.

00:17:57.000 I think

00:17:57.560 Putin

00:17:57.980 understands

00:17:58.540 this

00:17:58.780 perfectly

00:17:59.260 well.

00:18:00.400 And the

00:18:00.960 idea that

00:18:01.480 we're somehow

00:18:02.100 to blame

00:18:02.820 for the

00:18:03.400 fact that

00:18:03.940 Russia has

00:18:04.820 launched one

00:18:05.540 of the

00:18:05.700 most violent

00:18:06.400 and unnecessary

00:18:07.500 wars in

00:18:08.160 history is

00:18:08.760 just perverse.

00:18:11.440 So,

00:18:11.720 what was

00:18:12.340 your experience

00:18:13.260 in Ukraine?

00:18:15.860 Well,

00:18:16.280 I don't want

00:18:16.540 to make too

00:18:16.880 much of it

00:18:17.280 because I

00:18:17.660 was there

00:18:17.920 for four

00:18:18.360 days.

00:18:19.280 And,

00:18:19.640 you know,

00:18:20.080 some of

00:18:20.440 my colleagues

00:18:20.980 at the

00:18:21.260 New York

00:18:21.520 Times have

00:18:22.060 been there

00:18:22.380 for months,

00:18:23.060 if not

00:18:23.520 years.

00:18:24.260 And so,

00:18:24.920 there's a

00:18:25.380 limit to

00:18:25.760 how much

00:18:26.180 you can

00:18:26.560 glean

00:18:26.980 on what's

00:18:28.740 really a

00:18:29.100 pretty short

00:18:29.800 visit.

00:18:30.280 But nonetheless,

00:18:30.880 you learn

00:18:31.340 a few

00:18:31.580 things.

00:18:32.680 Number one,

00:18:33.480 no planes

00:18:34.120 fly to

00:18:34.540 Ukraine,

00:18:35.000 no ships

00:18:35.420 sail to

00:18:35.860 Ukraine.

00:18:36.800 In that

00:18:37.720 sense,

00:18:38.060 it's one

00:18:38.300 of the

00:18:38.440 most isolated

00:18:39.140 states in

00:18:40.040 the world.

00:18:40.600 We took

00:18:41.220 a nine-hour

00:18:41.920 train from

00:18:43.060 the Polish

00:18:43.520 border to

00:18:44.840 Kiev.

00:18:45.880 Number two,

00:18:47.080 Kiev is

00:18:47.900 thriving.

00:18:48.960 It was

00:18:49.840 stunning to

00:18:51.000 me that

00:18:51.440 a city

00:18:52.020 where so

00:18:53.000 many people

00:18:53.600 have been,

00:18:54.260 so many

00:18:54.680 siblings are

00:18:55.500 at war,

00:18:56.060 is insisting

00:18:57.480 that life

00:18:58.320 should be

00:18:58.760 led as

00:18:59.560 close to

00:19:00.320 normal as

00:19:00.840 possible.

00:19:01.560 I think I

00:19:02.180 said this

00:19:02.520 in a

00:19:02.720 convict,

00:19:03.600 that Ukrainians

00:19:04.580 are living

00:19:05.120 their lives

00:19:05.620 as if there

00:19:06.060 is no

00:19:06.420 war,

00:19:07.060 and they

00:19:07.940 are fighting

00:19:08.380 the war

00:19:08.760 as if there

00:19:09.200 is no

00:19:09.680 everyday

00:19:10.360 life.

00:19:11.400 It's a

00:19:11.740 very striking

00:19:12.260 fact to

00:19:13.280 be awakened

00:19:14.560 multiple times

00:19:15.720 in the middle

00:19:16.080 of the night

00:19:16.420 because Russian

00:19:17.400 drones or

00:19:18.200 cruise missiles

00:19:18.780 are heading

00:19:19.300 your way,

00:19:20.560 and Mark

00:19:21.320 Hamill's voice

00:19:22.040 comes up on

00:19:23.000 something called

00:19:23.860 the air

00:19:24.180 alert app

00:19:24.880 and basically

00:19:25.920 tells you to

00:19:26.880 seek safety

00:19:27.960 and don't be

00:19:28.880 so cocky as

00:19:30.700 to think you're

00:19:31.160 invulnerable.

00:19:32.360 And I learned

00:19:32.740 that Ukrainians

00:19:33.800 are really

00:19:34.400 determined to

00:19:35.860 win the war.

00:19:36.800 They are not

00:19:37.340 eager to look

00:19:38.580 for a settlement

00:19:39.180 because they

00:19:39.700 know that if

00:19:40.180 they do,

00:19:41.360 Russia will

00:19:42.060 regroup,

00:19:43.520 bide its

00:19:43.860 time,

00:19:44.360 maybe it

00:19:44.800 might be

00:19:45.180 five years,

00:19:45.920 maybe it

00:19:46.220 might be

00:19:46.500 15,

00:19:47.540 but will

00:19:47.900 strike again.

00:19:48.580 So they're

00:19:49.040 really determined

00:19:49.680 to win this

00:19:50.200 thing.

00:19:50.400 And by win

00:19:51.300 you mean

00:19:51.740 reclaim all

00:19:52.620 the territory

00:19:53.260 that was

00:19:53.840 previously lost?

00:19:56.020 That's what

00:19:56.380 Ukrainians,

00:19:57.200 the Ukrainians

00:19:57.780 I met with

00:19:58.620 all insisted

00:19:59.520 to the last

00:20:00.740 person,

00:20:01.540 that they feel

00:20:02.980 they are

00:20:04.140 every bit as

00:20:05.300 eager to

00:20:05.880 reclaim Crimea,

00:20:07.180 which was

00:20:07.540 seized back

00:20:08.560 in 2014

00:20:09.680 as they are

00:20:10.320 to reclaim

00:20:10.860 the land

00:20:11.980 that the

00:20:12.600 Russians took

00:20:13.100 since 2022.

00:20:14.600 I think it's

00:20:15.840 ultimately going

00:20:16.520 to be their

00:20:16.980 decision based

00:20:17.920 on how the

00:20:18.600 offensive or

00:20:19.300 their

00:20:19.460 counter-offensive

00:20:20.120 goes to

00:20:21.160 figure out

00:20:21.740 what it

00:20:22.140 is that

00:20:23.140 they can

00:20:23.500 live with.

00:20:24.000 And I can

00:20:24.300 imagine that

00:20:24.920 if Ukrainians

00:20:25.620 were told,

00:20:26.780 look,

00:20:27.400 we are going

00:20:27.880 to invite

00:20:28.220 you into

00:20:28.600 NATO or

00:20:29.140 we're going

00:20:29.400 to give

00:20:29.560 you other

00:20:29.900 forms of

00:20:30.560 very good

00:20:31.220 security

00:20:31.760 guarantees,

00:20:33.020 but Crimea

00:20:33.620 may be a

00:20:34.200 bridge too

00:20:34.660 far,

00:20:35.800 they might

00:20:36.780 reassess that.

00:20:37.960 But from

00:20:38.560 my encounters

00:20:40.060 with the

00:20:40.400 Ukrainians,

00:20:40.960 they were

00:20:41.400 unanimous

00:20:42.620 in insisting

00:20:45.060 that they

00:20:45.560 want to

00:20:46.560 reclaim their

00:20:47.080 full sovereignty.

00:20:48.360 Do we feel

00:20:49.020 that we have

00:20:49.480 good

00:20:50.120 mortality and

00:20:51.460 casualty data

00:20:52.720 on both

00:20:53.540 sides of

00:20:53.980 the war?

00:20:55.080 It's been a

00:20:55.980 while since I've

00:20:56.620 actually heard

00:20:57.180 clear figures.

00:20:58.660 Yeah,

00:20:58.860 no,

00:20:59.120 we don't.

00:21:00.160 The Economist

00:21:00.940 had an

00:21:02.700 estimate of

00:21:03.740 Russian

00:21:04.220 fatalities,

00:21:05.660 this was about

00:21:06.280 a month or

00:21:06.820 two ago,

00:21:07.980 which estimated

00:21:08.960 about 40,000 to

00:21:09.920 50,000 Russian

00:21:10.940 fatalities,

00:21:11.840 which means a

00:21:12.320 huge casualty

00:21:13.260 rate,

00:21:13.860 because usually

00:21:14.940 casualties,

00:21:15.960 you know,

00:21:16.220 the wounded

00:21:16.760 come in

00:21:17.280 multiples of

00:21:18.000 the fatality

00:21:19.660 rate.

00:21:21.140 But that was

00:21:22.060 based on

00:21:22.820 sort of

00:21:23.320 second-tier

00:21:24.360 data,

00:21:24.820 because the

00:21:25.240 Russians are

00:21:25.700 not releasing

00:21:26.220 figures and

00:21:26.940 the Ukrainians

00:21:27.580 don't release

00:21:28.080 figures either.

00:21:29.780 I suspect the

00:21:31.200 Ukrainian figures

00:21:31.960 are much lower

00:21:32.740 because Ukrainians

00:21:33.620 haven't, like the

00:21:34.760 Russians, been

00:21:35.340 throwing convicts,

00:21:36.920 like cannon fodder

00:21:38.060 into battle and

00:21:39.620 not really caring

00:21:40.920 whether they

00:21:41.560 return alive or

00:21:42.680 not.

00:21:42.880 What do you

00:21:44.380 make of the

00:21:45.660 prospects of

00:21:46.740 the Ukrainians

00:21:47.340 now in

00:21:48.100 actually winning

00:21:49.280 the war or

00:21:50.060 winning it to

00:21:50.940 the point where

00:21:51.780 the tide has

00:21:53.300 turned in a

00:21:54.300 way that really

00:21:55.260 puts Russia

00:21:56.280 on the back

00:21:57.920 foot?

00:21:58.940 You know,

00:21:59.160 this war has

00:21:59.880 really mocked

00:22:01.260 concepts of

00:22:02.060 military expertise.

00:22:04.020 You know,

00:22:04.220 when Russia

00:22:04.740 first invaded,

00:22:05.660 I think the

00:22:06.140 CIA was

00:22:06.960 estimating 96

00:22:08.820 hours or

00:22:09.560 something like

00:22:10.040 that until

00:22:10.600 Kiev fell.

00:22:12.060 Then there

00:22:12.580 was a period

00:22:13.120 of cocksure-ness

00:22:14.500 where we

00:22:14.880 thought that

00:22:15.540 the Russians

00:22:16.000 would surely

00:22:16.700 fold completely

00:22:18.260 because of

00:22:18.780 their early

00:22:19.760 reversals.

00:22:21.080 We've been

00:22:21.400 surprised in

00:22:22.400 the last few

00:22:23.980 months since

00:22:24.620 the counter-offensive

00:22:25.300 began that

00:22:25.940 the Russians

00:22:26.960 are not

00:22:27.820 capitulating as

00:22:29.160 we thought they

00:22:29.720 would, that

00:22:30.640 there's more

00:22:31.140 morale in

00:22:31.820 Russian lines

00:22:32.520 than had been

00:22:33.580 reported.

00:22:34.380 So all of

00:22:34.880 that is a

00:22:35.540 long way of

00:22:36.020 saying that I'd

00:22:36.660 be a fool to

00:22:37.320 hazard a guess.

00:22:38.680 You could see

00:22:39.280 a situation in

00:22:40.140 which the

00:22:40.440 early weeks of

00:22:42.020 the counter-offensive

00:22:42.860 are a slog and

00:22:43.940 then Ukrainians

00:22:45.060 managed to

00:22:45.640 break through.

00:22:46.780 But look,

00:22:47.320 we're back to

00:22:48.080 fighting World

00:22:48.620 War I in

00:22:49.840 which, you

00:22:50.380 know, it's

00:22:51.340 trench warfare,

00:22:52.600 there are

00:22:52.820 artillery battles,

00:22:54.280 it's very hard

00:22:55.040 to get across

00:22:55.880 no man's land.

00:22:57.520 So the

00:22:58.220 Ukrainians have

00:22:59.020 a huge task

00:23:00.280 ahead of them

00:23:00.880 and it wouldn't

00:23:01.400 surprise me if

00:23:02.080 they make very

00:23:02.540 little progress.

00:23:04.200 So, yeah,

00:23:04.980 your point about

00:23:06.480 the failure of

00:23:07.700 expertise here

00:23:08.800 has more

00:23:10.440 global significance

00:23:11.620 because it

00:23:12.220 really seems to

00:23:12.860 be the heart

00:23:13.520 of the

00:23:14.580 Trumpian

00:23:15.180 isolationist

00:23:16.660 conspiracist

00:23:18.100 core over

00:23:19.640 there, which

00:23:20.080 again has

00:23:21.240 turned everything

00:23:21.780 upside down

00:23:22.460 or many things

00:23:23.080 upside down,

00:23:24.300 but it has

00:23:25.440 this kernel

00:23:26.860 of truth to

00:23:27.780 it, which is

00:23:28.180 that on many,

00:23:29.100 many fronts

00:23:29.580 our experts,

00:23:31.620 our elites,

00:23:32.580 have embarrassed

00:23:33.840 themselves in

00:23:35.400 their claims

00:23:36.500 to certainty.

00:23:37.740 I mean, if you

00:23:38.660 look at the

00:23:39.060 public health

00:23:40.160 messaging during

00:23:40.940 COVID and the

00:23:41.940 backlash against

00:23:43.120 it, I mean,

00:23:44.100 part of that

00:23:44.700 was there's a

00:23:46.060 fundamental

00:23:47.220 misunderstanding

00:23:48.280 about how

00:23:49.620 science works

00:23:50.360 and a failure

00:23:51.320 to recognize

00:23:51.920 that COVID

00:23:52.420 was a moving

00:23:53.000 target and,

00:23:53.760 of course,

00:23:54.000 we're going to

00:23:55.060 keep having to

00:23:55.660 revise our

00:23:56.300 opinion of what's

00:23:56.980 actually happening.

00:23:58.440 You know,

00:23:58.620 do vaccines

00:23:59.600 prevent transmission?

00:24:00.740 We hope so.

00:24:01.520 It looks like

00:24:02.020 they don't really

00:24:02.580 do a very good

00:24:03.080 job of that,

00:24:03.960 but all of that

00:24:04.720 gets scored as

00:24:05.840 just the utter

00:24:07.280 embarrassment of

00:24:08.740 the so-called

00:24:09.840 experts and

00:24:11.000 what replaces a

00:24:12.760 trust in

00:24:13.780 institutions and

00:24:14.660 experts is a

00:24:16.000 sense that

00:24:16.640 basically everyone's

00:24:18.920 opinion is the

00:24:19.920 equivalent of any

00:24:21.260 other person's

00:24:21.840 opinion and we

00:24:23.420 should all just

00:24:23.880 do our own

00:24:24.340 research about

00:24:25.440 COVID, about

00:24:26.180 mRNA, about

00:24:27.080 Ukraine, about

00:24:27.880 anything, and

00:24:28.900 you can't trust

00:24:30.360 these deep

00:24:31.420 state rent

00:24:32.700 seekers.

00:24:33.520 And so the

00:24:34.120 punchline that

00:24:35.100 many have

00:24:35.480 drawn, certainly

00:24:36.820 right of

00:24:37.720 center, is

00:24:38.220 that what

00:24:39.420 we need is

00:24:40.100 a proper

00:24:41.320 reboot, which

00:24:43.440 is, by

00:24:44.260 definition,

00:24:45.120 isolationist.

00:24:46.340 Where do we

00:24:47.520 ever get it

00:24:47.960 into our

00:24:48.200 head that we

00:24:48.640 need to be

00:24:48.980 the world's

00:24:49.680 cop?

00:24:50.500 How is it

00:24:51.220 that Ukraine,

00:24:52.620 which most

00:24:53.140 Americans can't

00:24:53.880 find on a

00:24:54.400 map, is

00:24:55.560 considered to

00:24:56.120 be a vital

00:24:56.660 national interest?

00:24:58.160 We apparently

00:24:58.640 have billions

00:24:59.220 to spare for

00:25:00.560 Ukrainian munitions,

00:25:02.340 but we can't

00:25:03.960 figure out how

00:25:04.760 to get the

00:25:05.560 homeless fentanyl

00:25:06.440 addicts off

00:25:07.120 the streets of

00:25:07.760 our most

00:25:09.020 important cities.

00:25:10.240 How do you

00:25:10.720 respond to

00:25:11.500 that eruption

00:25:12.820 of populist

00:25:14.740 discontent with

00:25:16.280 international

00:25:16.760 norms, with

00:25:17.800 institutions, with

00:25:19.260 experts, etc.?

00:25:20.680 Well, you're

00:25:21.620 raising two

00:25:22.500 somewhat distinct

00:25:23.500 points.

00:25:24.740 One of the, I

00:25:26.060 think, real

00:25:26.440 problems we

00:25:27.020 have in the

00:25:27.560 country is not

00:25:29.020 only that experts

00:25:30.020 failed, but

00:25:30.840 experts refuse to

00:25:32.680 acknowledge, or

00:25:33.900 too many experts

00:25:34.860 refuse to

00:25:35.580 acknowledge that

00:25:36.520 they failed.

00:25:37.960 And so, the

00:25:39.100 distrust that I

00:25:41.220 think is

00:25:41.620 pervasive in the

00:25:42.840 United States, I

00:25:43.700 mean, you look at

00:25:44.180 one institution

00:25:45.060 after another and

00:25:46.080 levels of trust

00:25:46.880 have just

00:25:47.340 plummeted, that

00:25:49.260 distrust is

00:25:50.320 well-founded, or

00:25:52.180 at least it's not

00:25:52.920 completely crazy.

00:25:55.040 Not only did

00:25:55.700 experts often

00:25:57.300 insist on

00:25:59.120 solutions that

00:26:00.520 turned out to be

00:26:01.400 inadequate, but

00:26:02.740 they did so with

00:26:03.740 consummate

00:26:05.100 arrogance.

00:26:06.720 And I think

00:26:07.420 that has, that

00:26:08.640 they have not

00:26:09.280 helped, they

00:26:10.320 have not helped

00:26:11.020 their case.

00:26:12.820 And by the

00:26:13.140 way, I mean, this

00:26:13.660 is not just in

00:26:14.360 terms of public

00:26:15.240 health, although

00:26:15.840 that's what you

00:26:16.680 were talking

00:26:17.480 about.

00:26:17.880 It's in one

00:26:18.500 institution,

00:26:20.320 one area

00:26:21.200 after another

00:26:22.580 where the

00:26:22.960 expert point

00:26:23.620 of view fell

00:26:24.760 short.

00:26:25.760 Now, the

00:26:26.000 second point,

00:26:26.880 which is the

00:26:27.440 idea of, like, we

00:26:28.040 just need a

00:26:28.580 reboot in

00:26:29.340 foreign policy.

00:26:30.480 I mean, when

00:26:30.720 people say, well,

00:26:31.260 most Americans

00:26:31.900 couldn't find

00:26:32.440 Ukraine on a

00:26:33.100 map, that to

00:26:34.160 me suggests that

00:26:34.920 Americans ought to

00:26:35.660 spend more time

00:26:36.280 looking at maps

00:26:37.100 because Ukraine is

00:26:38.100 not some obscure

00:26:38.860 little country,

00:26:40.100 six degrees to

00:26:41.020 the left of

00:26:41.660 nowhere.

00:26:42.320 It's at the

00:26:42.980 very heart of

00:26:44.140 Europe.

00:26:45.280 And the idea

00:26:46.360 that we have

00:26:46.920 spent all of

00:26:47.760 this money on

00:26:48.380 Ukraine that

00:26:49.120 could be

00:26:50.320 better spent

00:26:51.460 on treating

00:26:53.140 fentanyl or

00:26:54.200 shoring up the

00:26:55.080 border, it's

00:26:56.860 just a failure of

00:26:57.600 mathematics.

00:26:58.480 I mean, the

00:26:58.840 amount of money

00:26:59.380 we've spent on

00:27:00.140 Ukraine as a

00:27:01.340 percentage of

00:27:02.120 our total

00:27:02.620 budget, of

00:27:03.320 our total

00:27:03.840 resources, it's

00:27:05.320 a fraction of

00:27:06.360 a single

00:27:07.400 percentage.

00:27:08.620 I mean, 50

00:27:09.040 billion sounds

00:27:09.600 like a lot of

00:27:10.240 money, and

00:27:11.180 then you say,

00:27:11.720 well, what's

00:27:12.860 the budget of

00:27:13.440 the United

00:27:13.760 States?

00:27:14.200 It's, what,

00:27:15.540 five or six

00:27:16.920 trillion, so

00:27:17.600 you're not

00:27:17.940 talking about

00:27:18.740 devoting an

00:27:20.020 outsized share

00:27:20.760 of resources.

00:27:22.480 But the

00:27:22.800 truth is that

00:27:23.780 countries have

00:27:24.860 to be able to

00:27:25.640 do many

00:27:26.180 things at

00:27:27.360 once.

00:27:28.060 And so

00:27:28.520 what we're

00:27:29.600 devoting to

00:27:30.360 Ukraine is

00:27:31.220 important because

00:27:32.040 we want to

00:27:32.840 maintain a

00:27:33.680 world in

00:27:34.820 which dictators

00:27:35.800 aren't rampaging

00:27:37.180 everywhere and

00:27:38.040 getting stronger

00:27:38.800 and more

00:27:39.360 confident.

00:27:39.920 We want to

00:27:40.980 avoid a

00:27:41.500 situation like

00:27:43.000 the 1930s where

00:27:44.320 the dictators

00:27:44.940 combine and

00:27:46.060 we have to

00:27:46.720 face a

00:27:47.800 genuine global

00:27:49.100 crisis.

00:27:49.720 We want a

00:27:50.880 situation where

00:27:51.640 it's Ukrainians

00:27:53.060 fighting for

00:27:53.660 their freedom,

00:27:54.320 not Americans

00:27:55.000 fighting for

00:27:55.700 Ukrainians.

00:27:56.780 And then when

00:27:57.560 it comes to

00:27:58.280 other issues,

00:27:59.340 whether it's

00:27:59.660 the fentanyl

00:28:00.280 crisis or the

00:28:02.080 immigration

00:28:02.840 crisis, those

00:28:04.300 are separate

00:28:05.440 issues that you

00:28:06.160 have to

00:28:06.520 consider sort

00:28:07.900 of separately

00:28:08.620 and,

00:28:09.320 and,

00:28:09.920 and rationally,

00:28:11.120 I don't think

00:28:11.720 that if we

00:28:12.120 pulled up stakes

00:28:12.820 at Ukraine

00:28:13.340 tomorrow, we

00:28:14.600 would be an

00:28:15.120 inch closer to

00:28:16.280 addressing the

00:28:17.460 tragedies going

00:28:18.200 on in places

00:28:19.100 like Portland

00:28:19.760 or San

00:28:20.220 Francisco or,

00:28:21.220 or, or the

00:28:22.740 migration crisis

00:28:23.900 from, from

00:28:25.380 McAllen all the

00:28:26.460 way to

00:28:26.900 Manhattan.

00:28:28.200 So, let's

00:28:29.820 linger for a

00:28:30.320 moment on the

00:28:30.700 point you made

00:28:31.380 about the

00:28:32.420 failure of

00:28:33.100 experts and

00:28:34.180 institutions,

00:28:34.760 because I, I

00:28:36.200 fully agree.

00:28:37.160 And, you

00:28:37.740 know, some of

00:28:38.240 this, you

00:28:39.200 know, rather a

00:28:39.700 lot of it

00:28:40.160 had to do

00:28:40.840 with the

00:28:41.880 way woke

00:28:43.500 identitarian

00:28:44.260 nonsense was

00:28:45.260 vitiating many

00:28:46.440 of these

00:28:46.720 institutions,

00:28:47.580 you know,

00:28:47.840 your own

00:28:48.820 included.

00:28:50.020 No comment.

00:28:50.660 Yeah, so

00:28:51.280 the, you

00:28:52.380 know, I, I'm

00:28:53.840 hopeful that the

00:28:54.560 pendulum has

00:28:55.120 begun to swing

00:28:56.120 back to

00:28:56.980 something more

00:28:58.340 sane there.

00:28:59.680 I don't know if

00:29:00.100 you have a

00:29:00.800 sense of where

00:29:01.660 the culture is

00:29:02.380 moving, but

00:29:03.960 I'm just

00:29:04.640 wondering what

00:29:05.040 you think

00:29:05.640 institutions and

00:29:07.380 experts should

00:29:08.980 have done and

00:29:09.940 or, you

00:29:10.440 know, should

00:29:10.840 do now.

00:29:12.300 I mean, do

00:29:12.660 we need

00:29:12.980 something like a

00:29:13.860 truth and

00:29:14.520 reconciliation

00:29:15.000 commission around

00:29:16.300 expert opinion

00:29:17.720 or on what

00:29:19.700 score are

00:29:20.400 apologies

00:29:21.100 warranted and

00:29:22.380 what form would

00:29:24.100 you imagine

00:29:24.600 them taking?

00:29:25.560 And do you

00:29:25.840 have any

00:29:26.100 examples of

00:29:26.940 places that

00:29:27.640 seem really

00:29:28.820 egregious that

00:29:29.680 do cry out for

00:29:30.740 some kind of

00:29:31.500 reckoning?

00:29:32.040 Well, I

00:29:33.120 mean, the

00:29:33.460 first thought

00:29:34.280 is the

00:29:34.840 closure of

00:29:35.420 schools across

00:29:36.220 America during

00:29:37.180 the COVID,

00:29:38.120 during the

00:29:38.540 early phases of

00:29:39.600 the COVID

00:29:40.000 pandemic, which

00:29:40.980 wrecked

00:29:41.820 terrible,

00:29:42.480 wreaked

00:29:42.880 terrible damage

00:29:44.180 on young

00:29:45.060 children that

00:29:45.740 is going to

00:29:46.360 be years,

00:29:47.740 going to take

00:29:48.220 years to

00:29:49.080 repair.

00:29:50.120 And I think

00:29:50.460 the problem

00:29:50.980 is that we,

00:29:52.720 during the

00:29:53.060 COVID crisis,

00:29:54.240 we conflated

00:29:55.740 the interests

00:29:57.000 of public

00:29:57.640 health with

00:29:59.740 the public

00:30:00.440 interest.

00:30:01.060 That's to

00:30:02.600 say that

00:30:02.880 public health

00:30:03.380 is a part

00:30:04.120 of the

00:30:04.460 public

00:30:04.760 interest,

00:30:05.300 but it's

00:30:05.560 not the

00:30:05.900 sole part

00:30:06.420 of the

00:30:06.640 public

00:30:06.900 interest,

00:30:07.820 right?

00:30:08.440 I mean,

00:30:08.980 take another

00:30:09.680 example.

00:30:10.740 We could

00:30:11.140 save tens

00:30:12.060 of thousands

00:30:12.540 of lives

00:30:13.160 every day

00:30:13.980 or every

00:30:14.580 year if

00:30:15.860 we had a

00:30:16.760 national speed

00:30:17.420 limit of

00:30:17.980 30 miles an

00:30:18.680 hour,

00:30:19.120 okay?

00:30:20.080 We could.

00:30:20.700 Just overnight,

00:30:21.520 if we enforced

00:30:22.220 a 30-mile-an-hour

00:30:23.160 speed limit,

00:30:24.360 tens of thousands

00:30:24.980 of lives would

00:30:25.620 be saved.

00:30:26.200 So we would

00:30:26.660 be doing

00:30:27.100 something for

00:30:28.160 the sake of

00:30:28.660 public health,

00:30:30.000 but we would

00:30:30.500 be doing it

00:30:31.080 at a cost

00:30:31.580 that I don't

00:30:31.960 think anyone

00:30:32.560 listening to

00:30:33.360 this podcast

00:30:34.540 for a moment

00:30:35.400 would accept.

00:30:36.820 Why?

00:30:37.300 Because we

00:30:38.420 recognize that

00:30:39.220 the public

00:30:39.620 interest involves

00:30:41.260 a series of

00:30:42.000 trade-offs between

00:30:43.040 competing goods.

00:30:44.600 One of them is

00:30:45.220 public health,

00:30:45.940 but another one

00:30:46.520 is the interest

00:30:47.080 of children

00:30:47.720 getting to

00:30:49.240 school and

00:30:50.140 getting to

00:30:50.520 school in

00:30:50.940 front of an

00:30:51.580 actual teacher,

00:30:52.660 not in front

00:30:53.300 of a screen,

00:30:54.520 and socializing

00:30:55.940 and seeing

00:30:56.520 a person's

00:30:57.200 mouth move

00:30:58.620 and smile

00:31:00.020 and frown

00:31:00.800 and whatever.

00:31:02.380 And the

00:31:03.160 apology that's

00:31:03.920 owed by

00:31:04.300 public health

00:31:04.880 officials is

00:31:05.620 to say,

00:31:06.660 we big-footed

00:31:07.800 other areas

00:31:09.740 because we

00:31:10.960 thought that

00:31:11.540 the only thing

00:31:12.120 that mattered

00:31:12.580 in a pandemic

00:31:13.340 was saving

00:31:14.800 people from

00:31:15.400 COVID.

00:31:16.460 Now,

00:31:16.940 that's not to

00:31:17.720 say it doesn't

00:31:18.460 matter.

00:31:18.940 Of course it

00:31:19.680 matters,

00:31:20.280 right?

00:31:21.060 But it would

00:31:22.080 have indicated,

00:31:23.060 it would have

00:31:23.380 shown some

00:31:23.980 humility and

00:31:24.920 some sense

00:31:25.500 that they

00:31:25.960 should have

00:31:26.220 kept to

00:31:26.700 their own

00:31:27.160 lanes by

00:31:27.680 saying,

00:31:28.620 we advise

00:31:29.180 about a

00:31:29.580 public health

00:31:30.140 issue,

00:31:30.520 but we

00:31:30.780 understand and

00:31:31.620 recognize that

00:31:32.440 there were

00:31:32.900 other competing

00:31:34.060 interests.

00:31:35.460 And that goes,

00:31:36.220 by the way,

00:31:36.860 for all kinds

00:31:38.300 of things in

00:31:38.980 which you can

00:31:39.400 think of people

00:31:40.060 who have

00:31:40.400 expertise in

00:31:42.040 a given

00:31:42.500 subject,

00:31:43.980 presuming,

00:31:44.660 because they

00:31:45.140 have expertise

00:31:45.720 in a given

00:31:46.260 subject,

00:31:46.780 that they're

00:31:47.040 experts in

00:31:47.740 every related

00:31:48.480 subject.

00:31:49.040 I mean,

00:31:49.160 I'll give you

00:31:49.480 another example,

00:31:50.500 and this will

00:31:51.000 probably get me

00:31:51.600 into trouble,

00:31:52.280 right?

00:31:52.500 Say you

00:31:53.840 are a

00:31:54.860 climatologist

00:31:55.700 and you

00:31:56.700 know that

00:31:57.600 the Earth

00:31:58.020 is warming

00:31:58.860 and that

00:31:59.820 this is

00:32:00.160 going to

00:32:00.360 have major

00:32:01.880 downstream

00:32:02.680 effects for

00:32:03.760 humanity,

00:32:05.160 okay?

00:32:05.540 That does

00:32:06.100 not necessarily

00:32:06.880 make you an

00:32:07.640 expert in

00:32:08.860 economics,

00:32:09.640 it doesn't

00:32:10.040 make you an

00:32:10.580 expert in

00:32:11.240 politics,

00:32:11.900 it doesn't

00:32:12.240 make you an

00:32:12.700 expert in

00:32:13.620 a number of

00:32:14.320 related fields,

00:32:15.420 all of which

00:32:16.400 need to be

00:32:17.900 brought into

00:32:18.940 a large

00:32:19.660 conversation

00:32:20.380 about the

00:32:21.540 long-term

00:32:21.900 effects of

00:32:22.440 climate change.

00:32:23.120 You can

00:32:23.340 say those

00:32:23.700 effects are

00:32:24.320 real,

00:32:25.260 that they're

00:32:25.600 serious,

00:32:26.280 it's coming,

00:32:27.000 we have to

00:32:27.580 deal with

00:32:27.980 it,

00:32:28.340 but it

00:32:29.120 might mean

00:32:29.720 that the

00:32:30.260 right answer

00:32:31.040 isn't

00:32:31.520 completely

00:32:32.140 upending

00:32:32.760 the current

00:32:34.240 energy economy

00:32:35.300 for the sake

00:32:36.080 of technologies

00:32:36.800 that aren't

00:32:37.300 yet mature,

00:32:38.520 right?

00:32:39.000 And so I

00:32:40.060 just want to

00:32:40.400 be clear,

00:32:41.160 I'm not

00:32:41.980 saying the

00:32:43.100 views of

00:32:43.540 climatologists

00:32:44.340 aren't

00:32:44.800 important,

00:32:45.460 they are

00:32:45.980 important.

00:32:46.900 What I am

00:32:47.420 saying is that

00:32:48.000 if you're

00:32:48.260 looking at

00:32:48.880 a problem

00:32:50.340 that is as

00:32:51.060 large and

00:32:51.920 as vexing

00:32:52.580 as climate

00:32:53.260 change,

00:32:54.340 it can't

00:32:55.180 simply be

00:32:56.080 the climate

00:32:57.160 experts who

00:32:58.120 are telling

00:32:58.580 the rest of

00:32:59.740 the public

00:33:00.140 what to do.

00:33:00.960 There has to

00:33:01.520 be some

00:33:02.580 weighing of

00:33:03.200 competing

00:33:03.600 interests.

00:33:04.120 And you can

00:33:05.120 think of

00:33:05.540 many other

00:33:07.020 fields where

00:33:07.880 people who are

00:33:08.860 experts in one

00:33:09.760 subject have

00:33:11.100 tried to

00:33:11.840 impose themselves

00:33:13.260 on areas where

00:33:14.760 their expertise is

00:33:15.700 much more

00:33:16.140 limited.

00:33:16.460 Yeah,

00:33:17.200 I think the

00:33:18.300 concept of

00:33:19.440 trade-offs is

00:33:20.320 an important

00:33:21.260 one because

00:33:21.860 there are so

00:33:22.760 many situations

00:33:23.420 where we

00:33:24.300 imagine there

00:33:25.780 is just one

00:33:26.840 right solution

00:33:27.980 without acknowledging

00:33:29.600 that whatever

00:33:31.040 the best

00:33:31.680 satisficing

00:33:33.160 solution is,

00:33:34.780 it will represent

00:33:35.840 a trade-off

00:33:36.540 and if you

00:33:37.920 focus on

00:33:38.460 the other

00:33:39.920 half of that

00:33:40.420 trade-off,

00:33:41.140 it can seem

00:33:41.960 scarcely

00:33:42.480 tolerable.

00:33:43.720 You're often

00:33:44.260 picking between

00:33:45.180 the least

00:33:45.940 bad among

00:33:46.900 many bad

00:33:47.580 avenues.

00:33:49.200 But I'm

00:33:49.400 still struck

00:33:50.060 by, it

00:33:50.780 seems to me

00:33:51.540 there were

00:33:52.480 and are

00:33:52.940 a number

00:33:54.140 of variables

00:33:54.720 in play

00:33:55.400 that make

00:33:56.600 public

00:33:57.580 messaging

00:33:58.300 about anything,

00:33:59.200 public health,

00:34:00.120 foreign policy,

00:34:01.200 any major

00:34:02.700 public concern

00:34:03.920 somewhat

00:34:05.160 fraught.

00:34:06.060 And one

00:34:06.820 is there's

00:34:08.000 a kind

00:34:08.580 of paternalistic

00:34:09.920 slash

00:34:11.040 pragmatic

00:34:12.440 impulse

00:34:13.760 that you

00:34:14.300 can see

00:34:14.940 arising

00:34:15.940 where

00:34:16.420 officials,

00:34:18.600 experts

00:34:19.060 recognize

00:34:20.220 that they

00:34:20.860 are messaging

00:34:21.480 into a

00:34:22.700 kind of

00:34:23.440 circus

00:34:24.380 of misinformation

00:34:25.300 and half-truths

00:34:27.780 and lies

00:34:28.700 and grifting

00:34:30.000 conspiracy

00:34:30.900 theorizing

00:34:31.900 and, you know,

00:34:33.000 and this was

00:34:33.680 especially bad

00:34:35.220 when Trump

00:34:35.780 was president

00:34:36.420 and you

00:34:37.620 have a

00:34:38.780 president

00:34:39.200 who's

00:34:39.640 saying things

00:34:40.420 like, you know,

00:34:40.960 we have 15

00:34:41.940 cases and we're

00:34:42.660 not going to

00:34:42.920 have any more

00:34:43.520 and then it's

00:34:44.320 going to turn

00:34:44.640 into a cold

00:34:45.160 right after

00:34:45.620 that.

00:34:46.500 So figuring

00:34:47.300 out how to

00:34:47.860 talk to

00:34:48.360 people in a

00:34:49.640 way that leads

00:34:50.280 to the best

00:34:51.640 public health

00:34:52.400 outcomes, to

00:34:53.080 speak narrowly,

00:34:53.780 of COVID now,

00:34:55.180 is not a

00:34:56.120 goal that is

00:34:57.760 necessarily

00:34:58.500 achieved by

00:35:00.140 being as

00:35:01.680 rigorously and

00:35:03.120 comprehensively

00:35:04.420 honest, you know,

00:35:06.180 just throughout

00:35:07.060 the process,

00:35:07.880 right?

00:35:08.000 You could see

00:35:08.640 public health

00:35:09.380 officials essentially

00:35:10.960 talking to

00:35:11.460 children, right,

00:35:12.680 and just

00:35:13.060 saying, listen,

00:35:13.620 we know you're

00:35:14.160 all a bunch of

00:35:15.540 conspiracy-addled

00:35:16.740 maniacs, we're

00:35:17.940 going to try to

00:35:19.000 dumb this down to

00:35:20.060 a point where

00:35:20.700 you're just, you

00:35:21.380 know, most people

00:35:22.060 most of the time

00:35:22.840 are not going to

00:35:23.500 screw this up, so

00:35:24.480 yeah, get the

00:35:25.800 vaccine, you're

00:35:26.900 being a good

00:35:27.300 citizen by getting

00:35:28.020 the vaccine, it

00:35:28.780 will reduce

00:35:29.260 transmission, it's

00:35:30.640 safe.

00:35:31.360 Now we know that

00:35:32.140 if you double-click

00:35:33.340 on any one of

00:35:34.140 those claims, it's a

00:35:35.680 far more nuanced

00:35:36.720 conversation and

00:35:37.940 there's a risk-benefit

00:35:39.360 calculation to be

00:35:40.820 talked about with

00:35:41.540 any vaccine, but

00:35:42.660 it's much more of

00:35:43.540 a political than

00:35:44.500 it is a scientific

00:35:45.640 challenge to

00:35:47.400 communicate about

00:35:48.720 a pandemic, and

00:35:50.420 it was made

00:35:51.100 especially difficult

00:35:52.600 given how

00:35:54.340 shattered our

00:35:55.140 politics has

00:35:56.740 become by the

00:35:58.580 information siloing

00:35:59.700 allowed by social

00:36:01.020 media.

00:36:02.000 I find much

00:36:03.480 that happened

00:36:04.560 during COVID

00:36:05.480 as galling as

00:36:06.400 you do, and

00:36:07.420 you know, even

00:36:08.260 as galling as

00:36:08.940 many people

00:36:09.360 many MAGA

00:36:10.140 people found

00:36:10.760 it, but there

00:36:12.100 is this problem

00:36:12.860 of just how

00:36:13.500 do you, knowing

00:36:15.300 that every

00:36:15.940 scientifically

00:36:16.620 scrupulous nuance

00:36:17.780 is going to be

00:36:18.440 weaponized as, you

00:36:19.760 see, they don't

00:36:20.320 know anything, how

00:36:21.680 do you talk to

00:36:23.020 Trumpistan?

00:36:24.880 That's a great

00:36:25.340 question, and the

00:36:26.300 answer is who

00:36:27.000 knows, but I

00:36:27.760 think we would

00:36:28.420 have been better

00:36:28.940 served if public

00:36:30.780 health officials from

00:36:31.760 the get-go had

00:36:32.900 said, had

00:36:34.160 continuously

00:36:34.900 emphasized what

00:36:36.620 they don't know,

00:36:37.460 the limits of

00:36:39.140 their certainty.

00:36:41.260 There was an

00:36:41.820 element there

00:36:42.740 which was, we

00:36:44.360 better make this

00:36:45.640 real simple and

00:36:46.560 clear because people

00:36:47.660 are too stupid to

00:36:48.720 digest complex

00:36:50.280 information and

00:36:51.780 information that

00:36:52.660 has large gaps

00:36:54.920 in it.

00:36:56.280 So maybe, and I

00:36:58.760 don't know if this

00:36:59.380 would have worked,

00:37:00.100 but maybe if you

00:37:01.780 had had our

00:37:02.420 leading public

00:37:03.060 health officials

00:37:03.980 saying from the

00:37:05.920 beginning, we

00:37:06.940 think this vaccine

00:37:07.860 is safe, and on

00:37:08.840 balance, we think

00:37:09.580 it's a good idea

00:37:10.260 for you to take

00:37:11.040 it.

00:37:11.620 Is it going to

00:37:12.140 provide perfect

00:37:13.240 immunity?

00:37:14.080 Early studies

00:37:14.800 suggest that it

00:37:15.980 will really protect

00:37:17.060 you, but we

00:37:17.740 could be wrong, and

00:37:18.800 we know that

00:37:19.280 viruses tend to

00:37:20.240 mutate, so we

00:37:20.960 don't know what

00:37:21.400 it's going to do

00:37:22.040 the next round.

00:37:23.420 Are there risks

00:37:24.020 associated with it?

00:37:25.140 There are risks

00:37:25.580 associated with

00:37:26.800 every medicine.

00:37:28.240 On balance, we're

00:37:29.320 going to take it,

00:37:29.920 and we think you

00:37:30.540 should too.

00:37:31.860 Just, I mean,

00:37:33.060 something less

00:37:33.980 than that kind

00:37:34.960 of censorious,

00:37:37.060 we-know-best,

00:37:38.720 you-must-do-as-we-say

00:37:40.460 approach that was

00:37:42.800 the approach of

00:37:44.940 the public health

00:37:46.900 officials and

00:37:48.100 certainly the

00:37:48.960 Biden administration

00:37:49.880 in its early

00:37:51.080 days, then that

00:37:53.160 might have been

00:37:53.980 more persuasive

00:37:55.820 than the kind

00:37:58.040 of you-must-do-this

00:37:59.880 mentality, because

00:38:01.020 people don't like

00:38:02.700 necessarily being

00:38:03.640 told to inject

00:38:05.360 themselves with

00:38:06.480 relatively novel

00:38:08.520 medicines.

00:38:09.140 In fact, up until

00:38:10.080 10 years ago, you

00:38:10.980 know, we began this

00:38:12.000 conversation by

00:38:13.200 talking about

00:38:13.740 inversions, but up

00:38:15.520 until 10 or 20

00:38:16.460 years ago, it was

00:38:17.140 typically the left

00:38:18.160 that insisted on

00:38:19.480 very, very extensive

00:38:21.520 testing of all new

00:38:23.000 drugs because we

00:38:24.920 didn't want another

00:38:25.600 thalidomide, right?

00:38:26.680 We didn't want

00:38:28.060 another medicine

00:38:28.860 that seemed to

00:38:30.600 promise a cure

00:38:31.900 and then had

00:38:32.360 knock-on effects

00:38:33.100 5 or 10

00:38:33.820 unforeseen

00:38:34.920 consequences that

00:38:35.880 could be devastating

00:38:36.940 even if only to a

00:38:38.580 relatively small

00:38:39.460 fraction of the

00:38:41.580 people who took

00:38:42.200 the medication.

00:38:43.300 So it was the

00:38:44.460 left that talked a

00:38:45.500 lot about the

00:38:46.020 precautionary

00:38:46.620 principle.

00:38:47.180 In fact, back 20

00:38:48.480 years ago, all of

00:38:49.780 the kind of anti-vax

00:38:51.420 woo-woo-ism seemed

00:38:53.540 to me to be coming

00:38:54.560 from kind of

00:38:55.580 California lefties

00:38:57.660 and people who

00:38:59.080 believed in herbal

00:39:00.420 solutions instead of

00:39:01.940 antibiotics.

00:39:03.420 And then that,

00:39:04.180 again, kind of

00:39:04.860 flipped completely

00:39:06.060 in the last 5 or

00:39:07.840 10 years.

00:39:08.400 Maybe not

00:39:08.800 completely because

00:39:09.480 there's RFK Jr.,

00:39:11.200 but it flipped

00:39:11.900 substantially.

00:39:13.240 Yeah, well, he's

00:39:14.680 kind of the fulcrum

00:39:16.060 or one fulcrum of

00:39:17.820 the flipping because

00:39:19.700 he obviously has

00:39:21.100 garnered a lot of

00:39:22.480 support from

00:39:24.620 Trump's cult in a

00:39:26.560 way.

00:39:26.880 I mean, you know,

00:39:27.480 just direct funding

00:39:28.500 and, you know, the

00:39:29.320 same people who are

00:39:30.660 open-minded about

00:39:31.400 Trump are very

00:39:32.080 open-minded about

00:39:32.920 RFK Jr., it seems.

00:39:35.160 You know, I had the

00:39:36.180 weirdest experience,

00:39:37.340 which is, you know,

00:39:37.820 I mean, I just sort

00:39:38.560 of took RFK Jr.

00:39:40.220 from the get-go to

00:39:41.400 be ridiculous and a

00:39:42.800 complete crank.

00:39:43.960 And then a friend of

00:39:45.340 mine, very intelligent

00:39:47.320 person of centrist

00:39:50.180 Democratic views, or

00:39:51.960 at least that's how I

00:39:52.900 had known her,

00:39:53.900 confessed to me that

00:39:55.420 she was thinking—this

00:39:56.720 was before the

00:39:57.420 anti-Semitic stuff, so

00:39:59.140 maybe something has

00:40:00.000 changed—but confessed

00:40:00.760 to me that she was

00:40:02.160 seriously thinking about

00:40:03.320 voting for him in the

00:40:04.360 primary.

00:40:04.980 So I don't think his

00:40:06.200 appeal should be

00:40:07.080 underestimated.

00:40:08.000 I mean, I was sort of

00:40:09.140 stunned.

00:40:09.740 I was like, the guy's a

00:40:11.460 crank.

00:40:11.960 I mean, give me a

00:40:12.740 break.

00:40:13.640 But what she found she

00:40:16.060 was responding to, I

00:40:17.900 think, were two things.

00:40:19.080 She didn't like the

00:40:20.360 way RFK Jr.

00:40:22.260 was sort of being

00:40:23.240 maligned and censored

00:40:25.560 and derided.

00:40:27.460 She liked what she

00:40:29.360 thought was sort of his

00:40:31.260 forthright belief in

00:40:33.000 free speech and open

00:40:34.260 debate, which I think

00:40:35.220 he's very cleverly

00:40:37.260 playing up.

00:40:39.200 And, you know, she'd

00:40:40.140 always been slightly on

00:40:41.780 the more homeopathic

00:40:43.560 side of the medicine,

00:40:45.920 you know, like in a

00:40:47.200 kind of an everyday

00:40:47.960 world, not like she

00:40:49.020 wasn't vaccinating her

00:40:50.800 kids or anything of

00:40:51.780 the sort, but just

00:40:52.880 believed that we're an

00:40:54.420 over-medicated society.

00:40:56.220 And so there is a, she

00:40:58.260 represents, I mean,

00:40:59.280 this is an anecdote of

00:41:00.820 one, so I don't want to

00:41:01.720 make too much of it.

00:41:03.220 But I remember thinking

00:41:04.480 after she told me this,

00:41:05.460 I said, geez, you know,

00:41:06.860 if someone as sane and

00:41:08.980 bright and, you know,

00:41:10.340 if I may say normal, is

00:41:11.600 responding to RFK's

00:41:13.100 message that way,

00:41:15.080 that maybe the base of

00:41:17.380 his support is much

00:41:18.400 wider than I suspect.

00:41:21.700 People who wind up

00:41:22.640 supporting RFK Jr.

00:41:24.780 and similarly fringe and

00:41:27.240 crankish voices, in my

00:41:29.760 view, are often led

00:41:31.480 there by the heuristic

00:41:33.140 that it's, yeah, whenever

00:41:34.720 you're in the business of

00:41:36.120 trying to demonize someone

00:41:38.220 to the point of silencing

00:41:39.340 them, whenever you're

00:41:40.200 deplatforming someone,

00:41:41.420 whenever you're saying

00:41:42.060 you're not going to

00:41:42.680 platform someone, even

00:41:43.680 just using this term

00:41:45.640 platforming, you seem

00:41:47.300 like you have something

00:41:48.080 to hide, right?

00:41:48.960 You're afraid of

00:41:50.680 conversation, right?

00:41:51.860 And we have this basic

00:41:53.380 assumption that sunlight

00:41:54.880 is the best disinfectant,

00:41:56.380 right?

00:41:56.560 So if there's, if he's

00:41:58.000 wrong about anything

00:41:59.080 material, that will be

00:42:00.740 exposed if you just

00:42:01.780 talk to him, right?

00:42:02.720 So why not talk to him?

00:42:03.660 Why not just put him on

00:42:04.400 the Joe Rogan podcast for

00:42:05.600 four hours and let him

00:42:07.240 roll?

00:42:08.100 You know, and all these

00:42:09.140 people complaining about

00:42:10.100 that, they seem scared

00:42:11.600 of something and they

00:42:12.680 claim it's misinformation,

00:42:14.460 but it's much easier to

00:42:16.260 see them as shills for

00:42:17.860 the establishment who

00:42:19.000 are ruled by bad

00:42:20.260 incentives and captured

00:42:21.900 by the ad dollars of the

00:42:23.900 pharmaceutical industry

00:42:24.840 and they're trying to

00:42:26.120 prop up this old world

00:42:27.620 that has been fully

00:42:29.040 discredited by recent

00:42:30.500 stress tests.

00:42:32.060 If you're scared of

00:42:32.940 RFK Jr., you know,

00:42:33.980 you're, you are

00:42:35.080 untrustworthy.

00:42:35.960 I want to hear him now.

00:42:37.560 And that extends all the

00:42:38.620 way to somebody like Alex

00:42:39.600 Jones, right?

00:42:40.360 He's just, you know,

00:42:41.260 why wouldn't you talk to

00:42:42.180 Alex Jones?

00:42:42.880 You know, he might be

00:42:43.760 right that certain frogs

00:42:45.520 are becoming gay and

00:42:46.860 maybe that has implications

00:42:48.300 for what's happening to

00:42:49.740 humans and that, but this

00:42:51.220 idea that we don't have a

00:42:53.200 misinformation problem,

00:42:54.260 we merely have a

00:42:55.320 stifling of free expression

00:42:56.480 problem, is profoundly naive

00:42:59.500 when you look at this

00:43:01.080 apparatus we've built, this

00:43:03.080 kind of hallucination

00:43:04.140 machine that is just

00:43:05.340 algorithmically boosting

00:43:06.840 nonsense and divisive lies

00:43:09.900 and people obviously can't

00:43:12.940 navigate it on their own.

00:43:14.200 I mean, the people are,

00:43:15.420 people believe the impossible

00:43:17.480 in the wake of all this

00:43:19.700 and, you know, it really is

00:43:21.960 showing the...

00:43:24.040 Look, people are going to

00:43:24.900 believe and have believed

00:43:26.760 at any given time,

00:43:28.440 including long before

00:43:29.760 Twitter and Facebook

00:43:31.660 could turbocharge

00:43:34.000 misinformation

00:43:35.000 or disinformation.

00:43:37.460 People have believed

00:43:38.120 all kinds of crap.

00:43:39.580 That's just in the nature

00:43:40.640 of a free society.

00:43:41.880 I mean, you can go back

00:43:42.860 at any point in history

00:43:44.500 and find people

00:43:45.820 fully subscribed to

00:43:47.800 preposterous conspiracy

00:43:49.620 theories, whether it was,

00:43:51.740 you know, who killed JFK?

00:43:53.300 I grew up with that.

00:43:54.660 You know, answer

00:43:55.680 Lee Harvey Oswald,

00:43:57.020 although I'm sure someone

00:43:57.800 listening to this podcast

00:43:58.780 is going to tear that around.

00:43:59.980 JFK, his nephew,

00:44:01.560 begs to differ, so...

00:44:02.540 Well, I mean,

00:44:03.420 the John Birch Society,

00:44:05.840 I mean, just go back

00:44:08.060 in history and you will find

00:44:09.260 a tremendous amount

00:44:10.060 of misinformation

00:44:10.700 circulating and often

00:44:13.280 commonly believed.

00:44:15.060 And that is in the nature

00:44:16.780 of a free society

00:44:17.780 that a lot of falsehood

00:44:20.420 flourishes, proliferates,

00:44:22.980 sinks into people's consciousness.

00:44:24.880 There's a limit,

00:44:26.080 and I think a very sharp limit,

00:44:27.540 on A, how much of that

00:44:29.480 can be stripped out.

00:44:31.080 You know, I might say that,

00:44:32.040 by the way, certain religious dogmas

00:44:33.480 strike me as a bunch

00:44:34.400 of ridiculous misinformation,

00:44:36.000 but I'll get myself

00:44:37.040 into trouble

00:44:37.640 if I move further

00:44:39.400 down that path, too.

00:44:40.000 You'll get no argument here.

00:44:42.020 I know that,

00:44:43.200 but it's sort of

00:44:44.400 to one side

00:44:45.480 of my point here.

00:44:47.080 Yeah.

00:44:47.380 But what I worry about

00:44:48.680 is that when you try

00:44:49.720 to suppress it

00:44:50.620 and you try to use

00:44:51.740 powerful tools

00:44:52.920 like the Twitter sensors

00:44:54.760 or the Facebook sensors

00:44:55.900 or government

00:44:57.240 sending messages

00:44:58.840 to social media companies

00:45:01.160 to shut down

00:45:02.840 certain veins of opinion,

00:45:04.960 that the real effect

00:45:06.420 of those acts

00:45:07.980 of half-assed censorship

00:45:09.300 is to actually turbocharge

00:45:11.540 the misinformation

00:45:12.300 not to dispel it, right?

00:45:14.740 Because it adds

00:45:15.740 a veneer

00:45:18.160 of kind of

00:45:19.660 persecution

00:45:20.780 or even martyrdom

00:45:22.300 to those

00:45:23.380 who are

00:45:24.120 perhaps

00:45:24.900 misinforming people,

00:45:26.720 right?

00:45:27.400 Because they think,

00:45:28.640 not only

00:45:29.140 am I

00:45:30.840 just being

00:45:32.260 persecuted for,

00:45:33.480 you know,

00:45:33.680 I'm trying to speak

00:45:35.000 my mind

00:45:35.500 and I'm being persecuted

00:45:36.380 for it,

00:45:37.280 and other people

00:45:37.980 respond to this.

00:45:38.880 I suspect that Alex Jones'

00:45:40.840 profile,

00:45:42.140 and I mean,

00:45:42.380 he's one of the most

00:45:43.220 detestable individuals

00:45:44.460 in American life

00:45:45.600 today,

00:45:46.580 but I suspect

00:45:48.300 that his profile

00:45:49.300 was, if anything,

00:45:50.620 kind of elevated

00:45:51.760 by the attention

00:45:52.960 that was given

00:45:53.780 to what he has to say.

00:45:55.940 You know,

00:45:56.060 I have zero sympathy

00:45:57.480 for the guy.

00:45:58.080 I think he's

00:45:58.920 revolting and evil,

00:46:00.940 particularly for what

00:46:01.760 he said about

00:46:02.420 the murders

00:46:03.960 in Sandy Hook.

00:46:05.960 But we do a lot,

00:46:07.440 those of us

00:46:08.040 who are in the business

00:46:08.900 of trying to be,

00:46:10.540 to offer good information

00:46:12.020 or at least

00:46:12.720 a sound

00:46:13.940 and well-based

00:46:14.600 analysis,

00:46:15.760 don't do ourselves

00:46:16.580 or our cause

00:46:17.880 any favors

00:46:18.720 when we're trying

00:46:19.520 to shut

00:46:20.880 other voices down

00:46:22.380 because we

00:46:22.900 declare that

00:46:23.980 they're beyond the pale

00:46:24.980 and anything

00:46:25.480 they have to say

00:46:26.200 is, you know,

00:46:27.760 not just wrong

00:46:28.740 but evil.

00:46:29.960 So,

00:46:30.260 in the ecology

00:46:31.240 of a free society,

00:46:32.520 I mean,

00:46:32.700 I think the ecological

00:46:33.540 metaphor is a good one.

00:46:35.060 Like,

00:46:35.620 if you want a healthy ecology,

00:46:36.880 you're going to have to accept

00:46:37.700 that there are going

00:46:38.180 to be mosquitoes

00:46:38.900 and ticks

00:46:40.080 and termites

00:46:40.740 and all kinds

00:46:41.420 of creepy-crawly things

00:46:42.660 that in and of themselves

00:46:44.060 are not very attractive

00:46:45.240 but perform

00:46:46.560 a kind of function

00:46:47.560 in the overall well-being

00:46:48.940 of a given

00:46:50.100 truth ecosystem.

00:46:51.820 And part of,

00:46:52.720 this is maybe getting

00:46:53.740 a little into the weeds,

00:46:55.040 but, you know,

00:46:56.160 in the ecology

00:46:57.020 of truth,

00:46:57.840 you actually have

00:46:58.620 to understand

00:46:59.480 and be acquainted

00:47:00.940 with what is false,

00:47:02.920 right?

00:47:03.720 Like,

00:47:04.060 you cannot understand

00:47:06.160 truth

00:47:07.160 in the absence

00:47:08.580 of its opposite.

00:47:10.240 efforts to get rid

00:47:12.740 of what's

00:47:13.200 called misinformation

00:47:14.660 or what might

00:47:15.620 be misinformation

00:47:16.400 aren't,

00:47:17.880 in fact,

00:47:18.260 serving

00:47:18.680 the ultimate

00:47:20.300 cause of truth,

00:47:21.260 if that's what

00:47:21.680 you want to call it,

00:47:22.780 because it has

00:47:24.000 to be present

00:47:24.760 in order for us

00:47:25.620 to understand

00:47:26.340 what is truer

00:47:27.840 than not.

00:47:29.380 Right.

00:47:29.780 Yeah,

00:47:30.000 I mean,

00:47:30.160 the only caveat

00:47:31.640 I would add here

00:47:32.340 is that

00:47:32.720 when you're talking

00:47:33.980 about social media

00:47:34.740 in particular,

00:47:35.360 it's not really

00:47:36.440 a question of

00:47:37.240 platforming

00:47:38.380 or not necessarily,

00:47:39.800 it's just

00:47:40.180 the question

00:47:41.040 of what the

00:47:42.140 algorithm does

00:47:43.020 to boost

00:47:43.740 misinformation

00:47:44.780 and outrage

00:47:46.360 preferentially,

00:47:47.440 right?

00:47:47.640 So it's the

00:47:48.240 signal boost

00:47:48.920 that is the

00:47:49.880 unique feature

00:47:50.600 here,

00:47:51.040 which is genuinely

00:47:52.020 new.

00:47:53.700 And if we...

00:47:54.720 That's a fair point.

00:47:55.720 That's a perfectly

00:47:56.300 logical fair point.

00:47:58.120 And you can,

00:47:58.600 and you have to,

00:47:59.520 you know,

00:47:59.960 to do nothing

00:48:00.560 is still an

00:48:01.360 editorial decision,

00:48:02.520 right?

00:48:02.660 Like,

00:48:02.880 you have to tune

00:48:04.000 the algorithm

00:48:04.500 one way or the other,

00:48:05.360 and if you're

00:48:06.300 going to flatten

00:48:06.760 everything,

00:48:07.420 well,

00:48:07.560 then flatten it.

00:48:08.160 If you're going

00:48:08.480 to try to boost

00:48:09.480 better information,

00:48:10.760 well,

00:48:10.900 that's its own

00:48:11.580 choice.

00:48:12.380 But if you've

00:48:13.400 consciously created

00:48:14.760 an algorithm

00:48:15.260 that you can now

00:48:16.080 see is boosting

00:48:17.480 divisive lies

00:48:18.880 faster than

00:48:19.600 anything else

00:48:20.300 and you're

00:48:20.720 maintaining it

00:48:21.560 because your

00:48:22.000 business model,

00:48:23.320 you know,

00:48:24.060 depends on you

00:48:24.800 doing so,

00:48:25.760 well,

00:48:25.920 then you've,

00:48:26.320 you know,

00:48:26.560 you've built

00:48:26.920 an outrage machine

00:48:27.780 and that's the

00:48:29.340 status quo

00:48:30.240 that I think

00:48:30.820 many of us

00:48:31.940 are worried about.

00:48:32.380 That's true.

00:48:32.740 I mean,

00:48:32.900 I guess there are

00:48:33.540 two points

00:48:35.040 that need

00:48:35.400 to be

00:48:35.660 considered

00:48:35.980 and I fully

00:48:36.820 accept what

00:48:37.400 you said.

00:48:38.400 Number one

00:48:38.960 is are you

00:48:39.720 sure when

00:48:40.720 you are

00:48:41.140 trying to

00:48:42.240 root out

00:48:42.800 misinformation

00:48:43.360 that you are

00:48:44.160 in fact

00:48:44.520 rooting out

00:48:44.980 misinformation

00:48:45.500 and the

00:48:46.180 example of

00:48:46.800 that that

00:48:47.800 comes to

00:48:48.220 mind is

00:48:48.700 Facebook's

00:48:49.340 ban on

00:48:49.780 any mention

00:48:50.380 of the

00:48:51.640 Wuhan

00:48:52.300 Virology

00:48:53.340 Institute

00:48:53.700 as a

00:48:54.720 potential

00:48:55.080 source

00:48:55.700 for the

00:48:56.820 pandemic

00:48:57.280 where they

00:48:57.880 had

00:48:58.460 effectively

00:48:58.900 banned

00:48:59.400 it

00:48:59.680 until

00:49:00.140 it turned

00:49:01.440 out it

00:49:01.740 was actually

00:49:02.480 a perfectly

00:49:02.940 well-grounded

00:49:04.260 hypothesis

00:49:06.380 so

00:49:07.280 question

00:49:08.300 number

00:49:08.540 one

00:49:08.840 is

00:49:09.160 do you

00:49:10.640 trust

00:49:10.920 the

00:49:11.120 gatekeepers

00:49:11.740 when it

00:49:12.240 comes

00:49:12.540 to

00:49:12.900 deciding

00:49:13.880 what is

00:49:14.580 good

00:49:15.520 information

00:49:16.140 versus

00:49:16.580 what's

00:49:16.980 bad

00:49:17.260 information

00:49:17.780 I think

00:49:18.100 that's

00:49:20.120 a very

00:49:21.080 important

00:49:21.440 consideration

00:49:22.120 the second

00:49:22.960 thing is

00:49:23.560 did Trump

00:49:24.380 become more

00:49:25.160 potent or

00:49:25.700 less potent

00:49:26.320 after he

00:49:26.880 was banned

00:49:27.440 by Twitter

00:49:28.180 judging by

00:49:29.220 how he's

00:49:29.640 doing at

00:49:29.960 the polls

00:49:30.440 after a

00:49:32.540 three-year

00:49:32.900 ban

00:49:33.300 more potent

00:49:34.400 now I

00:49:35.040 don't know

00:49:35.280 if there's

00:49:35.680 a causation

00:49:36.920 there

00:49:37.300 but the

00:49:38.860 extent to

00:49:39.520 which

00:49:39.820 the extent

00:49:40.840 to which

00:49:41.140 his efforts

00:49:42.380 to

00:49:42.880 deplatform

00:49:44.080 him

00:49:44.480 have

00:49:45.340 backfired

00:49:46.140 is another

00:49:47.260 issue

00:49:47.680 I think

00:49:48.260 that's

00:49:48.920 worth

00:49:49.340 considering

00:49:49.740 I don't

00:49:50.020 have a

00:49:50.280 great

00:49:50.500 answer

00:49:50.940 but my

00:49:52.000 general

00:49:52.800 guess is

00:49:53.240 that when

00:49:53.460 you try

00:49:53.980 to deplatform

00:49:54.820 prominent

00:49:55.480 people

00:49:55.980 you're

00:49:56.800 giving

00:49:57.160 them

00:49:57.540 a

00:49:57.920 patina

00:49:58.860 of

00:49:59.580 victimization

00:50:01.040 which

00:50:01.680 benefits

00:50:03.520 them

00:50:04.080 in ways

00:50:05.020 that

00:50:05.320 those

00:50:05.940 who

00:50:06.500 have

00:50:06.640 deplatformed

00:50:07.280 them

00:50:07.500 never

00:50:07.860 intended

00:50:08.300 here's

00:50:10.020 a

00:50:10.300 case

00:50:11.740 study

00:50:12.120 we

00:50:12.640 could

00:50:13.220 analyze

00:50:13.960 which

00:50:14.240 actually

00:50:14.560 you

00:50:14.860 could

00:50:15.280 do

00:50:15.400 a

00:50:15.500 bit

00:50:15.600 of

00:50:15.700 a

00:50:15.860 post

00:50:16.140 mortem

00:50:16.560 on

00:50:17.060 my

00:50:18.400 still

00:50:19.520 not

00:50:19.940 completely

00:50:20.720 formed

00:50:21.140 opinion

00:50:21.560 of the

00:50:22.580 Hunter

00:50:22.780 Biden

00:50:23.100 laptop

00:50:23.560 because

00:50:24.320 it

00:50:24.900 really

00:50:25.700 has

00:50:25.980 all

00:50:26.280 of

00:50:26.420 these

00:50:26.740 issues

00:50:27.380 in

00:50:27.580 miniature

00:50:27.880 so

00:50:28.600 tell

00:50:28.760 me

00:50:28.940 what

00:50:29.240 if

00:50:29.360 anything

00:50:29.580 is

00:50:29.780 wrong

00:50:30.160 with

00:50:30.440 this

00:50:30.640 many

00:50:31.300 people

00:50:31.540 are

00:50:31.660 confused

00:50:32.000 about

00:50:32.320 what

00:50:32.700 I

00:50:32.840 thought

00:50:33.140 or

00:50:33.380 what

00:50:33.620 I

00:50:33.760 think

00:50:33.980 and

00:50:34.100 what

00:50:34.220 I

00:50:34.320 thought

00:50:34.460 at

00:50:34.580 the

00:50:34.660 time

00:50:34.900 because

00:50:35.220 of

00:50:35.840 some

00:50:36.120 misleading

00:50:37.040 clips

00:50:38.300 spread

00:50:38.480 on

00:50:38.620 social

00:50:38.840 media

00:50:39.140 but

00:50:39.440 so

00:50:40.060 at

00:50:40.180 the

00:50:40.460 time

00:50:40.960 and I

00:50:42.080 still

00:50:42.400 my

00:50:43.020 position

00:50:43.560 really

00:50:43.780 hasn't

00:50:44.000 changed

00:50:44.300 here

00:50:44.480 I

00:50:45.240 thought

00:50:45.420 it

00:50:45.500 was

00:50:45.600 a

00:50:45.820 genuinely

00:50:46.220 difficult

00:50:46.760 call

00:50:47.520 journalistically

00:50:48.920 whether

00:50:50.300 to

00:50:50.780 pay

00:50:51.640 attention

00:50:52.140 to

00:50:52.700 the

00:50:52.860 laptop

00:50:53.400 10

00:50:53.800 days

00:50:54.120 before

00:50:54.600 the

00:50:55.140 election

00:50:55.500 given

00:50:55.900 what

00:50:56.180 had

00:50:56.320 happened

00:50:56.620 in

00:50:56.840 2016

00:50:57.360 when

00:50:57.920 Comey

00:50:58.860 reopened

00:50:59.400 the

00:50:59.940 Hillary

00:51:00.580 Clinton

00:51:00.860 email

00:51:01.480 case

00:51:01.940 and we

00:51:02.200 knew

00:51:02.420 that

00:51:03.340 though

00:51:03.940 her

00:51:04.220 candidacy

00:51:05.040 might

00:51:05.240 have

00:51:05.340 failed

00:51:05.520 for

00:51:05.700 other

00:51:05.860 reasons

00:51:06.160 we

00:51:06.760 knew

00:51:07.240 that

00:51:07.460 was

00:51:07.780 the

00:51:08.300 coup de

00:51:08.960 gras

00:51:09.260 with

00:51:09.920 respect

00:51:10.240 to

00:51:10.520 immediately

00:51:11.820 hour

00:51:12.300 by

00:51:12.480 hour

00:51:12.680 what

00:51:12.880 happened

00:51:13.220 to

00:51:13.740 the

00:51:13.880 polls

00:51:14.280 and

00:51:15.380 for

00:51:15.960 obvious

00:51:16.320 reasons

00:51:16.860 anyone

00:51:17.480 who

00:51:17.960 was

00:51:18.340 worried

00:51:19.060 about

00:51:19.360 Trump

00:51:20.060 getting a

00:51:20.800 second

00:51:21.040 term

00:51:21.500 him being

00:51:22.700 a sitting

00:51:23.320 president

00:51:23.780 who

00:51:24.140 would not

00:51:24.800 commit to

00:51:25.300 a peaceful

00:51:25.640 transfer of

00:51:26.180 power

00:51:26.440 or

00:51:27.040 the

00:51:27.140 idea

00:51:27.640 to

00:51:27.780 the

00:51:27.980 idea

00:51:28.180 to

00:51:28.340 be

00:51:28.500 beholden

00:51:29.320 to

00:51:29.660 Rudy

00:51:30.060 Giuliani

00:51:30.520 timetable

00:51:31.240 and

00:51:31.620 take

00:51:31.900 the

00:51:32.080 bait

00:51:32.340 ten

00:51:32.620 days

00:51:32.860 before

00:51:33.100 the

00:51:33.260 election

00:51:33.600 and

00:51:33.920 start

00:51:34.460 putting

00:51:34.800 front

00:51:35.360 page

00:51:35.680 articles

00:51:36.140 about

00:51:36.400 the

00:51:36.540 Hunter

00:51:36.700 Biden

00:51:36.920 laptop

00:51:37.420 on

00:51:38.280 the

00:51:38.380 cover

00:51:38.560 of

00:51:38.680 your

00:51:38.780 newspaper

00:51:39.220 that

00:51:40.020 just

00:51:40.240 seemed

00:51:40.760 idiotic

00:51:41.980 and

00:51:42.240 so

00:51:42.460 I

00:51:42.800 thought

00:51:43.800 journalistically

00:51:45.000 it would

00:51:45.960 have been

00:51:46.380 both

00:51:46.940 prudent

00:51:47.620 and

00:51:48.260 defensible

00:51:49.300 to say

00:51:49.880 listen

00:51:50.260 whatever's

00:51:51.060 true in

00:51:51.320 this

00:51:51.460 laptop

00:51:51.880 is going

00:51:52.640 to be

00:51:52.820 true

00:51:53.200 two

00:51:54.060 weeks

00:51:54.300 from

00:51:54.480 now

00:51:54.740 we're

00:51:55.660 going

00:51:55.760 to

00:51:55.860 slow

00:51:56.120 roll

00:51:56.460 our

00:51:56.760 consideration

00:51:57.680 of

00:51:57.860 this

00:51:58.040 knowing

00:51:58.680 that

00:51:58.880 this

00:51:59.000 was

00:51:59.160 dropped

00:51:59.520 on

00:51:59.740 us

00:51:59.940 as

00:52:00.180 an

00:52:00.300 October

00:52:00.620 surprise

00:52:01.160 set

00:52:02.220 to

00:52:02.440 detonate

00:52:02.960 with

00:52:03.280 just

00:52:03.580 enough

00:52:03.840 time

00:52:04.260 to

00:52:04.700 get

00:52:05.300 it

00:52:05.480 to

00:52:05.720 derail

00:52:06.320 the

00:52:06.660 campaign

00:52:07.660 but

00:52:07.940 not

00:52:08.140 enough

00:52:08.360 time

00:52:08.620 to

00:52:08.780 fully

00:52:09.360 vet

00:52:09.760 all

00:52:10.000 this

00:52:10.160 information

00:52:10.620 and

00:52:10.900 figure

00:52:11.140 out

00:52:11.380 what's

00:52:12.000 Russian

00:52:12.400 disinformation

00:52:13.460 and

00:52:13.940 if

00:52:14.460 anything

00:52:14.780 and

00:52:15.040 what

00:52:15.260 isn't

00:52:15.820 there's

00:52:16.040 every

00:52:16.220 reason

00:52:16.460 to

00:52:16.600 worry

00:52:17.220 that

00:52:17.440 this

00:52:17.760 could

00:52:18.000 be

00:52:18.180 Russian

00:52:18.500 disinformation

00:52:19.040 and

00:52:20.060 so

00:52:20.300 we're

00:52:20.480 just

00:52:20.620 going

00:52:21.660 to

00:52:21.780 wait

00:52:22.160 until

00:52:22.780 after

00:52:23.080 the

00:52:23.260 election

00:52:23.560 to

00:52:23.880 really

00:52:24.560 do

00:52:24.900 a

00:52:25.020 deep

00:52:25.180 dive

00:52:25.440 on

00:52:25.600 this

00:52:25.800 so

00:52:26.320 journalistically

00:52:26.980 that

00:52:27.380 seemed

00:52:28.640 a

00:52:29.220 plausible

00:52:29.600 response

00:52:30.120 to

00:52:30.280 me

00:52:30.440 and

00:52:30.540 a

00:52:30.640 defensible

00:52:30.980 one

00:52:31.280 although

00:52:31.620 admittedly

00:52:32.660 still

00:52:33.180 somewhat

00:52:33.740 depressing

00:52:34.580 one

00:52:35.040 you know

00:52:35.840 my

00:52:36.060 bias

00:52:36.640 being

00:52:36.940 toward

00:52:37.340 actually

00:52:38.140 digging

00:52:38.660 in

00:52:38.900 and

00:52:39.060 figuring

00:52:39.280 out

00:52:39.460 what's

00:52:39.700 true

00:52:40.040 and

00:52:40.820 then

00:52:41.140 the

00:52:41.660 additional

00:52:42.280 steps

00:52:42.780 that

00:52:42.980 social

00:52:43.740 media

00:52:44.060 took

00:52:44.460 like

00:52:44.840 Twitter

00:52:45.320 actually

00:52:46.200 blocking

00:52:46.820 the

00:52:47.120 New York

00:52:47.460 Post's

00:52:48.220 account

00:52:48.700 once

00:52:49.080 they

00:52:49.300 released

00:52:49.700 an article

00:52:50.120 on the

00:52:50.680 topic

00:52:51.000 that

00:52:51.700 seemed

00:52:52.180 much

00:52:52.840 more

00:52:53.060 heavy

00:52:53.320 handed

00:52:53.680 and

00:52:54.180 harder

00:52:54.500 to

00:52:54.700 defend

00:52:55.120 and

00:52:55.480 I

00:52:55.620 think

00:52:55.800 it

00:52:56.580 did

00:52:56.920 actually

00:52:57.240 have

00:52:57.400 the

00:52:57.520 Streisand

00:52:58.860 effect

00:52:59.080 that

00:52:59.440 you

00:52:59.760 just

00:53:00.000 referenced

00:53:00.380 a moment

00:53:00.720 ago

00:53:00.980 that

00:53:01.160 it

00:53:01.260 really

00:53:01.440 brought

00:53:01.680 more

00:53:01.880 attention

00:53:02.160 to it

00:53:02.560 but it

00:53:03.140 was also

00:53:03.440 just less

00:53:03.960 defensible

00:53:05.000 in my

00:53:05.760 view

00:53:06.020 and now

00:53:07.020 you know

00:53:07.840 fast forward

00:53:08.220 to the

00:53:08.440 present

00:53:08.680 moment

00:53:09.100 I still

00:53:10.220 you know

00:53:10.620 all this

00:53:11.000 time

00:53:11.320 given that

00:53:11.900 Trump

00:53:12.440 has

00:53:12.820 my

00:53:13.340 feeling

00:53:13.880 was

00:53:14.380 at the

00:53:15.280 time

00:53:15.640 and it

00:53:15.960 is now

00:53:16.500 I don't

00:53:17.380 care what's

00:53:17.860 in that

00:53:18.100 laptop

00:53:18.460 because

00:53:19.020 I know

00:53:20.300 in advance

00:53:21.120 that even

00:53:22.020 if it

00:53:22.280 reveals

00:53:22.660 some degree

00:53:23.300 of corruption

00:53:23.900 on the

00:53:24.360 part of

00:53:24.840 President

00:53:25.340 Biden

00:53:25.800 it's

00:53:26.700 going to

00:53:27.020 pale in

00:53:27.420 comparison

00:53:27.800 to the

00:53:28.160 corruption

00:53:28.460 I know

00:53:29.040 is true

00:53:29.860 of Trump

00:53:31.220 and his

00:53:31.560 family

00:53:31.980 and the

00:53:33.160 truth is

00:53:33.920 that corruption

00:53:34.840 isn't even

00:53:35.620 as troublesome

00:53:36.380 as many

00:53:37.360 of the other

00:53:37.760 things that

00:53:38.340 I despise

00:53:39.760 in Trump

00:53:40.540 and the

00:53:41.080 prospect of

00:53:41.640 him getting

00:53:42.420 a second

00:53:42.800 term

00:53:43.120 so I

00:53:44.160 can just

00:53:44.520 say that

00:53:45.040 I actually

00:53:45.520 as long

00:53:46.020 as Trump

00:53:46.380 is a

00:53:46.660 candidate

00:53:47.020 I don't

00:53:48.180 really care

00:53:48.780 what's

00:53:49.240 on that

00:53:49.940 laptop

00:53:50.440 as odious

00:53:51.480 as it

00:53:51.740 might be

00:53:52.200 and I

00:53:52.760 do worry

00:53:53.420 that there's

00:53:54.080 a lot

00:53:54.340 there that

00:53:54.720 could

00:53:55.440 in a

00:53:56.000 perfect

00:53:56.240 world

00:53:56.600 discredit

00:53:57.320 Biden's

00:53:58.000 candidacy

00:53:58.500 but

00:53:59.300 it's

00:53:59.980 I just

00:54:01.160 don't

00:54:01.360 care

00:54:01.640 as

00:54:01.820 long

00:54:02.120 as

00:54:02.480 Trump

00:54:03.140 is

00:54:03.340 running

00:54:03.740 and

00:54:04.400 so

00:54:04.560 I'm

00:54:04.660 just

00:54:04.800 wondering

00:54:05.180 how

00:54:05.800 you

00:54:05.980 view

00:54:06.220 that

00:54:06.560 response

00:54:07.020 I guess

00:54:07.540 I disagree

00:54:08.240 the standard

00:54:09.940 I would

00:54:10.600 apply

00:54:10.920 first of all

00:54:12.100 I don't

00:54:12.440 think it's

00:54:12.980 the business

00:54:14.120 of those

00:54:15.100 of us

00:54:15.460 in the

00:54:15.740 journalistic

00:54:16.300 profession

00:54:16.860 certainly

00:54:17.300 on the

00:54:17.880 news side

00:54:18.480 not the

00:54:18.820 opinion

00:54:19.100 side

00:54:19.540 to

00:54:20.460 try to

00:54:21.340 tip

00:54:21.920 the scales

00:54:22.480 by

00:54:23.440 withholding

00:54:24.120 stories

00:54:24.640 that

00:54:24.960 we would

00:54:25.540 otherwise

00:54:25.880 consider

00:54:26.440 legitimate

00:54:26.920 and

00:54:27.400 by

00:54:28.420 legitimate

00:54:28.980 what I

00:54:29.440 mean

00:54:29.640 is

00:54:29.800 let's

00:54:30.040 imagine

00:54:30.500 that

00:54:31.140 it

00:54:31.840 wasn't

00:54:32.180 the

00:54:32.320 Hunter

00:54:32.600 Biden

00:54:32.980 laptop

00:54:33.440 it

00:54:33.940 was

00:54:34.180 the

00:54:34.400 Donald

00:54:34.700 Trump

00:54:35.060 jr.

00:54:35.520 laptop

00:54:35.980 there's

00:54:36.520 no

00:54:36.700 question

00:54:37.300 it would

00:54:38.520 have gotten

00:54:38.820 a very

00:54:39.160 different

00:54:39.440 response

00:54:39.960 and say

00:54:40.260 the

00:54:40.400 Donald

00:54:40.640 Trump

00:54:40.920 jr.

00:54:41.320 laptop

00:54:41.860 contained

00:54:42.800 all

00:54:43.140 kinds

00:54:43.720 of

00:54:44.280 alarming

00:54:45.340 information

00:54:45.980 about

00:54:46.420 his

00:54:46.700 business

00:54:47.120 deals

00:54:47.680 with

00:54:48.360 foreign

00:54:49.120 actors

00:54:49.820 hints

00:54:50.720 of

00:54:50.960 corruption

00:54:51.540 all

00:54:52.660 all

00:54:52.680 the

00:54:52.820 stuff

00:54:53.040 that

00:54:53.220 turned

00:54:53.600 out

00:54:53.760 to

00:54:53.860 be

00:54:53.960 on

00:54:54.100 the

00:54:54.220 Hunter

00:54:54.440 Biden

00:54:54.720 laptop

00:54:55.200 the

00:54:55.780 treatment

00:54:56.100 should

00:54:56.400 be

00:54:56.720 the

00:54:57.060 same

00:54:57.360 once

00:54:57.880 once

00:54:59.040 editors

00:54:59.600 came to

00:55:00.520 a

00:55:00.680 determination

00:55:01.060 that

00:55:01.600 this

00:55:01.800 was

00:55:02.120 they

00:55:02.820 had

00:55:03.020 a

00:55:03.160 good

00:55:03.320 reason

00:55:03.700 good

00:55:04.040 reason

00:55:04.400 to

00:55:04.600 believe

00:55:05.020 that

00:55:05.320 what

00:55:05.860 was

00:55:06.040 on

00:55:06.220 this

00:55:06.380 laptop

00:55:06.840 was

00:55:07.200 true

00:55:08.260 or

00:55:08.520 at

00:55:08.680 least

00:55:08.820 reportable

00:55:09.640 even

00:55:09.900 if

00:55:10.080 there

00:55:10.200 were

00:55:10.340 some

00:55:10.700 lingering

00:55:11.620 doubts

00:55:12.080 they

00:55:12.280 should

00:55:12.520 have

00:55:12.720 reported

00:55:13.400 it

00:55:13.720 you

00:55:14.160 think

00:55:14.400 they

00:55:14.560 should

00:55:14.740 have

00:55:14.860 just

00:55:15.040 followed

00:55:15.580 the

00:55:15.940 timing

00:55:16.380 of

00:55:17.340 Giuliani

00:55:17.960 knowing

00:55:18.520 that

00:55:18.920 that

00:55:19.220 he

00:55:19.540 had

00:55:19.700 held

00:55:20.020 this

00:55:20.300 thing

00:55:20.640 until

00:55:21.620 it

00:55:22.380 was

00:55:22.520 too

00:55:22.720 close

00:55:22.980 to

00:55:23.100 the

00:55:23.180 I

00:55:23.320 mean

00:55:23.460 again

00:55:23.820 I

00:55:24.380 just

00:55:24.720 don't

00:55:24.940 think

00:55:25.160 that

00:55:25.440 it

00:55:25.820 serves

00:55:26.260 the

00:55:26.480 media

00:55:26.740 well

00:55:27.240 when

00:55:28.020 we

00:55:28.240 are

00:55:28.580 self

00:55:29.080 consciously

00:55:29.560 trying

00:55:29.980 to tip

00:55:30.360 the

00:55:30.560 scales

00:55:30.900 of

00:55:31.200 an

00:55:31.440 election

00:55:31.820 we

00:55:32.080 are

00:55:32.200 trying

00:55:32.640 our

00:55:33.320 that

00:55:34.060 look

00:55:34.500 your

00:55:35.220 determination

00:55:36.580 as a

00:55:37.240 voter

00:55:37.540 right

00:55:37.980 like

00:55:38.640 let's

00:55:39.160 say

00:55:39.320 it

00:55:39.460 had

00:55:39.580 come

00:55:39.820 out

00:55:40.200 before

00:55:41.020 the

00:55:41.220 election

00:55:41.580 and

00:55:41.900 there

00:55:42.020 was

00:55:42.140 some

00:55:42.340 evidence

00:55:42.700 that

00:55:42.920 Hunter

00:55:43.180 was

00:55:43.380 corrupt

00:55:43.760 and

00:55:43.960 maybe

00:55:44.220 even

00:55:44.760 that

00:55:45.360 his

00:55:45.940 father

00:55:46.440 knew

00:55:46.860 more

00:55:47.360 than

00:55:47.780 you

00:55:48.340 know

00:55:48.460 he's

00:55:48.920 claimed

00:55:49.740 right

00:55:50.100 you

00:55:50.560 would

00:55:50.760 still

00:55:51.040 vote

00:55:51.300 for

00:55:51.520 Biden

00:55:51.880 because

00:55:52.180 you

00:55:52.360 would

00:55:52.520 say

00:55:52.900 they

00:55:53.540 might

00:55:53.760 both

00:55:54.060 be

00:55:54.260 crooks

00:55:54.720 or

00:55:54.920 have

00:55:55.320 you

00:55:55.620 know

00:55:55.840 bad

00:55:56.480 things

00:55:56.780 against

00:55:57.100 them

00:55:57.360 but

00:55:57.620 Biden

00:55:58.160 is

00:55:58.440 you

00:55:59.320 know

00:55:59.420 what

00:55:59.560 the

00:55:59.680 British

00:55:59.940 call

00:56:00.440 by

00:56:01.040 the

00:56:01.100 way

00:56:01.240 you

00:56:01.460 know

00:56:01.580 this

00:56:02.260 is

00:56:02.380 not

00:56:02.520 what

00:56:02.720 I'm

00:56:02.900 saying

00:56:03.180 he

00:56:03.320 is

00:56:03.420 but

00:56:03.540 you

00:56:03.660 might

00:56:03.920 say

00:56:11.220 sooner

00:56:12.580 take

00:56:13.040 the

00:56:13.340 Hunter

00:56:13.660 Biden

00:56:14.100 run

00:56:14.460 of

00:56:14.580 the

00:56:14.720 mill

00:56:15.000 nepotism

00:56:17.220 slash

00:56:18.060 favoritism

00:56:19.080 slash

00:56:19.540 whatever

00:56:19.940 it is

00:56:20.520 to

00:56:21.300 the

00:56:21.920 screaming

00:56:22.660 risk

00:56:23.080 that

00:56:23.300 Trump

00:56:23.560 represents

00:56:24.040 for

00:56:24.200 democracy

00:56:24.540 that

00:56:24.780 that's

00:56:25.100 a

00:56:25.200 decision

00:56:25.500 that

00:56:25.720 Sam

00:56:26.000 Harris

00:56:26.420 makes

00:56:27.340 as a

00:56:27.700 voter

00:56:28.000 right

00:56:28.540 but

00:56:29.420 from

00:56:30.200 the

00:56:30.340 point

00:56:30.540 of

00:56:30.680 view

00:56:30.900 of

00:56:31.180 editors

00:56:31.980 I

00:56:32.420 think

00:56:32.840 many

00:56:33.440 editors

00:56:33.860 were

00:56:34.460 were

00:56:35.300 derelict

00:56:35.860 in

00:56:36.180 their

00:56:36.360 duty

00:56:36.780 and

00:56:37.440 the

00:56:37.820 test

00:56:38.120 I've

00:56:38.320 always

00:56:38.540 applied

00:56:38.860 and

00:56:39.000 I've

00:56:39.160 said

00:56:39.320 this

00:56:39.460 to

00:56:39.600 Republicans

00:56:40.120 a

00:56:40.400 million

00:56:40.620 times

00:56:41.080 have

00:56:41.840 said

00:56:42.160 if

00:56:42.780 it

00:56:43.560 had

00:56:43.780 been

00:56:44.080 a

00:56:44.820 Republican

00:56:45.340 let's

00:56:45.680 say

00:56:45.940 it

00:56:46.180 had

00:56:46.340 been

00:56:46.540 Barack

00:56:47.040 Obama

00:56:47.440 or

00:56:47.720 Joe

00:56:48.100 Biden

00:56:48.520 who

00:56:49.460 had

00:56:49.660 been

00:56:49.860 accused

00:56:50.500 of

00:56:51.140 sexual

00:56:52.160 assault

00:56:52.840 the

00:56:53.380 way

00:56:53.900 credibly

00:56:54.940 accused

00:56:55.400 the

00:56:55.560 way

00:56:55.720 he

00:56:55.840 told

00:56:55.940 he

00:56:56.200 told

00:56:56.580 he

00:56:56.940 accused

00:56:57.520 Donald

00:56:58.400 Trump

00:56:58.840 right

00:56:59.300 how

00:57:00.280 would

00:57:00.480 you

00:57:00.600 take

00:57:00.860 it

00:57:01.100 right

00:57:01.440 would

00:57:02.220 you

00:57:02.340 dismiss

00:57:02.680 it

00:57:02.960 no

00:57:03.640 you

00:57:03.840 wouldn't

00:57:04.080 you

00:57:04.220 would

00:57:04.360 take

00:57:04.540 it

00:57:04.680 seriously

00:57:05.040 so

00:57:05.340 I

00:57:05.840 just

00:57:06.020 think

00:57:06.220 that

00:57:06.420 it's

00:57:06.780 important

00:57:07.160 for

00:57:07.340 the

00:57:07.480 media's

00:57:07.840 credibility

00:57:08.240 this

00:57:08.480 goes

00:57:08.660 back

00:57:08.900 to

00:57:09.160 the

00:57:09.620 early

00:57:09.920 part

00:57:10.260 of

00:57:10.400 our

00:57:10.580 conversation

00:57:11.300 to

00:57:12.020 stick

00:57:12.300 to

00:57:12.540 its

00:57:12.740 lane

00:57:13.020 we

00:57:13.260 are

00:57:13.380 not

00:57:13.600 trying

00:57:13.960 to

00:57:14.260 tip

00:57:14.580 the

00:57:14.800 scales

00:57:15.260 in

00:57:15.520 an

00:57:15.680 election

00:57:16.040 we

00:57:16.880 are

00:57:17.040 trying

00:57:17.480 to

00:57:17.760 be

00:57:18.240 fair

00:57:24.940 tellers

00:57:25.420 of

00:57:25.560 the

00:57:25.720 news

00:57:26.100 right

00:57:26.520 that's

00:57:26.900 that's

00:57:27.340 that's

00:57:27.800 our

00:57:27.980 role

00:57:28.240 our

00:57:29.140 role

00:57:29.380 is

00:57:29.540 not

00:57:29.720 to

00:57:29.900 say

00:57:30.060 you

00:57:30.220 know

00:57:30.400 yes

00:57:30.900 yes

00:57:31.120 yes

00:57:31.140 yes

00:57:31.360 but

00:57:31.540 Trump

00:57:31.760 is

00:57:31.920 such

00:57:32.100 a

00:57:32.260 unique

00:57:32.560 threat

00:57:32.860 to

00:57:33.040 democracy

00:57:33.620 that

00:57:34.640 this

00:57:35.160 is

00:57:35.280 one

00:57:35.500 story

00:57:35.880 we're

00:57:36.120 just

00:57:36.280 not

00:57:36.540 going

00:57:36.680 to

00:57:36.780 air

00:57:37.000 because

00:57:37.280 we

00:57:37.440 don't

00:57:37.620 like

00:57:37.820 the

00:57:37.980 timing

00:57:38.320 if

00:57:39.140 we

00:57:39.500 would

00:57:39.780 have

00:57:39.900 done

00:57:40.180 it

00:57:40.380 if

00:57:40.920 the

00:57:41.080 shoe

00:57:41.240 had

00:57:41.380 been

00:57:41.480 on

00:57:41.620 the

00:57:41.720 other

00:57:41.880 foot

00:57:42.200 then

00:57:42.940 we

00:57:43.100 have

00:57:43.320 to

00:57:43.460 apply

00:57:43.860 an

00:57:44.140 equivalent

00:57:44.480 standard

00:57:44.920 if

00:57:54.940 people

00:57:55.520 having

00:57:56.600 more

00:57:56.920 confidence

00:57:57.460 in

00:57:58.080 what

00:57:58.400 the

00:57:59.160 Alex

00:57:59.500 Joneses

00:58:00.040 of

00:58:00.160 the

00:58:00.260 world

00:58:00.480 have

00:58:00.760 to

00:58:00.920 say

00:58:01.220 than

00:58:01.960 what

00:58:02.260 the

00:58:02.780 New York

00:58:03.200 Times

00:58:03.560 or

00:58:03.700 the

00:58:03.800 Washington

00:58:04.160 Post

00:58:04.520 or

00:58:04.680 the

00:58:04.760 Wall

00:58:04.920 Street

00:58:05.080 Journal

00:58:05.360 have

00:58:05.660 to

00:58:05.820 say

00:58:06.060 so

00:58:06.520 it's

00:58:06.860 the

00:58:07.020 same

00:58:07.220 in a

00:58:07.500 sense

00:58:07.700 we're

00:58:07.860 talking

00:58:08.140 about

00:58:08.420 the

00:58:08.600 same

00:58:08.800 thing

00:58:09.180 by

00:58:09.900 trying

00:58:10.500 to

00:58:10.940 have

00:58:11.400 a

00:58:11.560 larger

00:58:11.900 role

00:58:12.260 than

00:58:12.440 simply

00:58:12.920 the

00:58:13.280 role

00:58:13.540 of

00:58:13.720 being

00:58:14.140 disseminators

00:58:15.600 of

00:58:15.840 solid

00:58:16.380 and

00:58:16.680 credible

00:58:17.020 information

00:58:17.640 we

00:58:18.640 harm

00:58:19.080 trust

00:58:19.680 in

00:58:20.040 what

00:58:20.760 we

00:58:20.940 do

00:58:21.300 we

00:58:21.820 harm

00:58:24.940 drive

00:58:25.520 people

00:58:25.980 to

00:58:26.580 the

00:58:26.980 margins

00:58:27.320 of

00:58:27.580 the

00:58:27.700 information

00:58:28.160 economy

00:58:28.700 yeah

00:58:30.520 I mean

00:58:30.820 I get

00:58:31.160 that that

00:58:31.620 risk

00:58:32.000 is

00:58:32.280 it

00:58:33.440 seems

00:58:33.800 to be

00:58:34.120 borne

00:58:34.380 out

00:58:34.660 certainly

00:58:35.040 in

00:58:35.320 certain

00:58:35.700 cases

00:58:36.060 I

00:58:36.320 just

00:58:36.660 I

00:58:36.880 worry

00:58:37.180 that

00:58:37.620 for

00:58:38.060 me

00:58:38.280 the

00:58:38.520 timing

00:58:39.080 was

00:58:39.720 all

00:58:40.080 there

00:58:40.560 or

00:58:41.360 certainly

00:58:41.580 most

00:58:41.980 of

00:58:42.140 the

00:58:42.260 consideration

00:58:42.800 and

00:58:43.620 given

00:58:44.620 the

00:58:45.280 example

00:58:45.680 of

00:58:46.040 Anthony

00:58:46.440 Wiener's

00:58:46.820 laptop

00:58:47.140 and how

00:58:47.660 that

00:58:47.900 was

00:58:48.240 it

00:58:49.000 evaporated

00:58:49.700 as a

00:58:50.040 story

00:58:50.360 right

00:58:50.740 after

00:58:51.140 it

00:58:51.320 had

00:58:51.560 this

00:58:51.780 decisive

00:58:52.220 effect

00:58:52.680 on

00:58:52.840 the

00:58:52.940 election

00:58:53.300 it

00:58:53.920 just

00:58:54.100 seemed

00:58:54.440 ridiculous

00:58:55.320 to play

00:58:55.920 into

00:58:56.220 Giuliani's

00:58:57.340 gamesmanship

00:58:58.140 at that

00:58:58.880 point

00:58:59.280 but

00:58:59.580 by the

00:59:00.280 way

00:59:00.340 I

00:59:00.460 think

00:59:00.620 Trump

00:59:00.880 would

00:59:01.040 still

00:59:01.260 have

00:59:01.440 lost

00:59:01.700 the

00:59:01.860 election

00:59:02.280 we'll

00:59:03.260 never

00:59:03.480 know

00:59:03.780 but

00:59:04.000 I

00:59:04.140 think

00:59:04.340 Trump

00:59:04.620 would

00:59:04.780 have

00:59:04.960 Trump

00:59:05.500 was

00:59:05.680 on

00:59:05.820 his

00:59:05.940 way

00:59:06.140 to

00:59:06.360 a

00:59:06.580 massive

00:59:07.200 loss

00:59:07.660 and

00:59:07.840 you

00:59:07.940 might

00:59:08.120 say

00:59:08.440 could

00:59:09.120 it

00:59:09.240 have

00:59:09.380 tipped

00:59:09.640 a few

00:59:09.940 thousand

00:59:10.280 votes

00:59:10.700 in

00:59:11.020 Wisconsin

00:59:11.800 or

00:59:12.100 Pennsylvania

00:59:12.500 I

00:59:13.840 tend

00:59:14.320 to

00:59:14.460 doubt

00:59:14.680 it

00:59:14.800 people

00:59:15.140 had

00:59:16.220 made

00:59:16.420 their

00:59:16.580 determination

00:59:17.000 about

00:59:17.400 his

00:59:17.540 presidency

00:59:17.980 irrespective

00:59:18.700 of

00:59:18.940 allegations

00:59:19.920 of

00:59:20.320 Hunter

00:59:20.780 shenanigans

00:59:21.440 although

00:59:21.740 you

00:59:22.040 have

00:59:22.400 some

00:59:22.760 prominent

00:59:23.700 Republicans

00:59:24.220 walking

00:59:24.600 around

00:59:24.900 saying

00:59:25.180 this

00:59:25.500 was

00:59:26.120 how

00:59:26.560 the

00:59:27.860 election

00:59:28.440 was

00:59:29.080 stolen

00:59:29.500 from

00:59:30.120 Trump

00:59:30.480 it

00:59:30.660 wasn't

00:59:31.080 stolen

00:59:31.440 in all

00:59:31.740 the

00:59:31.840 ways

00:59:32.020 Trump

00:59:32.380 claimed

00:59:32.680 it

00:59:32.800 was

00:59:32.920 stolen

00:59:33.180 because

00:59:34.160 we

00:59:34.560 did

00:59:34.760 not

00:59:35.120 give

00:59:35.620 the

00:59:36.020 Hunter

00:59:36.240 Biden

00:59:36.520 laptop

00:59:36.880 story

00:59:37.420 the

00:59:37.680 appropriate

00:59:38.160 hearing

00:59:39.320 in a

00:59:40.160 timely

00:59:40.420 way

00:59:40.780 this

00:59:41.100 is

00:59:41.200 what

00:59:41.860 Vivek

00:59:42.360 Ramaswamy

00:59:43.140 is

00:59:43.300 saying

00:59:43.580 and

00:59:43.860 perhaps

00:59:44.340 others

00:59:44.660 are

00:59:44.800 saying

00:59:45.000 it

00:59:45.200 but

00:59:45.420 yeah

00:59:46.100 pure

00:59:46.640 bullshit

00:59:47.080 perhaps

00:59:47.840 we can

00:59:48.040 linger

00:59:48.240 on this

00:59:48.480 point

00:59:48.680 for a

00:59:49.280 moment

00:59:50.780 I claim

00:59:51.600 that I

00:59:52.100 wouldn't

00:59:52.980 want to

00:59:53.220 do

00:59:53.320 anything

00:59:53.600 to

00:59:53.900 increase

00:59:54.260 Trump's

00:59:55.060 chances

00:59:55.380 to get

00:59:55.900 re-elected

00:59:56.460 what

00:59:56.980 lessons

00:59:57.320 should

00:59:57.560 we

00:59:57.820 draw

00:59:58.200 from

00:59:58.560 the

00:59:59.300 Hunter

00:59:59.600 Biden

00:59:59.860 laptop

01:00:00.240 at this

01:00:00.780 point

01:00:00.980 have you

01:00:01.300 looked at

01:00:02.140 it

01:00:02.280 long

01:00:02.660 enough

01:00:02.880 to know

01:00:03.220 what

01:00:03.400 you

01:00:03.540 think

01:00:03.920 about

01:00:04.260 the

01:00:04.880 possible

01:00:05.260 implications

01:00:05.860 for

01:00:06.380 Biden

01:00:06.920 so

01:00:07.420 if you'd

01:00:10.240 like to

01:00:10.480 continue

01:00:10.780 listening

01:00:11.080 to this

01:00:11.380 conversation

01:00:11.940 you'll

01:00:12.640 need to

01:00:12.920 subscribe

01:00:13.400 at

01:00:13.600 samharris.org

01:00:14.540 once you

01:00:15.580 do you'll

01:00:15.940 get access

01:00:16.320 to all

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - August 12, 2023

#329 — What Happened to the Republican Party？

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