Making Sense - Sam Harris - November 07, 2023


#340 — The Bright Line Between Good and Evil

Topics
jihadism and Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Hosted by
Sam Harris
Mentioned
Muhammad Christopher Hitchens Jocko Willink Graham Wood Kanye Majid Nawaz Islam Ashkenazi Jews Brooklyn Hamas Brett Stevens Lex Friedman Allahu Akbar David Wyman James Bond Alex Jones Boko Haram Elon Musk Ted Bundy Lashkar-e-Taiba Kristallnacht Netanyahu and 4 more
#339 — The Infernal Logic of Jihad #341 — Gaza & Global Order

Episode Stats


Length

59 minutes

Words per minute

157.24

Word count

9,395

Sentence count

—

Harmful content

Misogyny

11

sentences flagged

Toxicity

235

sentences flagged

Hate speech

127

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Israel's ground invasion of Gaza may have been a mistake, and there may be other ways to defeat Hamas without resorting to the use of human shields, as well as a siege that could starve Hamas out of Gaza, and starve them out of their tunnels and supply them with food and water so that they can wage jihad as a means to achieve their goals. But what would be the best option? And how would this approach serve Israel's interests? And what would it entail? And why is there so much confusion about what Israel is actually fighting, and why is it so difficult to see past its own failures, and what it can do about it, in the face of the overwhelming moral confusion we ve all witnessed over the past month and a half. Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast, in which I try to try to make sense of what we ve witnessed in the past week and a week since the attack on Gaza by the Israeli military on Israel. I m concerned that the Israeli invasion could be a mistake and that it could lead to even greater casualties on the Palestinian side, but I m also concerned that it won't be able to achieve its goal of defeating Hamas in the long-term, at least not without using human shields and providing humanitarian access to Gaza's civilians as human shields. I m worried that it may not even be possible, and that there are other options that might be better than what Israel has been offering. I hope you can join me in making sense of it all, and I hope that you do so in the next time, in this episode of the making sense podcast. - Sam Harris . Making Sense? - Making Sense -- Sam Harris, making sense? -- "Making Sense?" -- -- Make sense? -- "The Making Sense" -- by Sam Harris "Making sense?" -- "Makes sense" -- "I hope you like it? "Make sense"? -- "Let me know what you think of it? " -- " " -- " " " -- or "I don't have any idea what you're going to do? ? -- " -- and "I'll tell you what you can do? -- or do you want to do it? -- ? or "What do you think about it?" -- or what would you hope for it? ? "I'm trying to help you know you can help me know that it's going to be better?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 welcome to the making sense podcast this is Sam Harris well it's been a month since Hamas attacked
00:00:27.960 Israel killing around 1,500 people and taking over 200 hostages and it's been a week since Israel's
00:00:36.840 ground invasion of Gaza began now like many people I'm concerned that the extensive bombing and now
00:00:44.400 invasion of Gaza could be a mistake I'm not saying Israel doesn't have to retaliate and destroy Hamas 0.99
00:00:51.420 they clearly do and I would say they have to destroy Hezbollah too and ultimately they and we have to 1.00
00:00:58.740 dismantle every jihadist organization that could impact our security in the future but there may
00:01:05.720 have been other ways to have gone about destroying Hamas that would have better served Israel's 0.98
00:01:09.320 interests and produced fewer casualties on the Palestinian side as everyone expected collateral
00:01:15.960 damage in Gaza has convinced much of the world that Israel is the real aggressor here of course
00:01:21.560 many on the left began saying this before Israel had dropped a single bomb at a moment when it was
00:01:26.200 clear that Hamas had committed atrocities of a sort that one scarcely imagines possible in the modern
00:01:31.840 world the fact that millions of people can't do the moral arithmetic here or have confidently produced
00:01:39.160 the wrong answer is itself an enormous problem for open societies everywhere because this should not have
00:01:46.140 been confusing Hamas took a sadistic pleasure in torturing and killing non-combatants that should
00:01:53.540 have made it instantly clear to everyone certainly to everyone on a college campus that jihadist groups like
00:02:00.540 Hamas are the permanent enemies of civilization so Israel really does have a war to fight but I worry that 0.84
00:02:07.880 the ground invasion of Gaza could be a mistake a different approach has been discussed in a few
00:02:12.600 contexts I believe Jocko Willink suggested something like this on his podcast as many of you know Jocko
00:02:18.560 is a Navy SEAL who led the SEALs in the Battle of Ramadi so he knows a lot about urban warfare and
00:02:24.160 counterinsurgency a similar idea was recently described in an article by Brett Stevens in the New York Times
00:02:30.520 recommending that Israel provide humanitarian corridors for civilians to leave northern Gaza as well as safe
00:02:37.000 zones in the south and perhaps Israel itself where people can be protected and then the IDF could simply
00:02:43.080 starve Hamas in their tunnels without much more extensive bombing much less a full ground invasion now perhaps 0.88
00:02:50.320 there are reasons why this just wouldn't work that's totally possible it would certainly take a long time
00:02:55.940 because Hamas has spent most of Gaza's resources billions of dollars in humanitarian aid meant for the
00:03:02.620 Palestinians building hundreds of miles of tunnels and fortifying them with food and water and fuel
00:03:09.400 so that they could wage jihad all the while the world holds Israel responsible for the deprivations of the 0.95
00:03:16.260 Palestinian people the Palestinians of Gaza have been deprived of food water and fuel and most other
00:03:23.640 good things by Hamas so I can't say if this siege idea really is a good one but if a siege of this sort 0.84
00:03:31.540 were possible it would have obvious advantages it would signal a clear commitment to not harming
00:03:37.640 innocent civilians though some would inevitably be harmed because Hamas is using their entire society 0.99
00:03:43.760 as human shields there's no question that some not so innocent civilians would arrive at humanitarian
00:03:49.540 checkpoints as suicide bombers and there would be an infuriating loss of life there even as Israel took
00:03:55.960 great pains to protect it but an approach like this would have denied Hamas a long series of propaganda
00:04:01.640 victories based on the terrible imagery that has been coming out of Gaza however all this just may be
00:04:07.920 moot in the end because as I said much of the world took Hamas aside before a single Israeli bomb fell 0.76
00:04:16.480 and that is what is so astonishing and so dangerous and so in need of criticism
00:04:22.080 as the war continues I'm sure I'll do podcasts that attempt to understand how we got here
00:04:27.480 and where all this is heading there's a lot to talk about including the bewildering failure of the IDF
00:04:33.160 that left Israel so unprotected and the commensurate failures of the Netanyahu government
00:04:38.080 there's the pressing question of how America and our allies can support Israel while avoiding world war
00:04:43.480 three I certainly wonder whether a war with Iran is now more or less inevitable and of course Iran 0.97
00:04:49.340 is directly allied with Russia and there are longer term questions about whether peace between
00:04:53.580 Israel and the Palestinians is even conceivable is a two-state solution possible is a one-state 0.99
00:04:59.840 solution possible I really have no idea what one could rationally hope for at this point however I want
00:05:06.340 to say something about the extreme moral confusion we have witnessed in recent weeks some of it has just
00:05:12.820 been frank anti-semitism which I'll also talk about but much of it is actual confusion right most
00:05:19.280 people in the West still don't understand the problem of jihadism we often speak about terrorism
00:05:24.740 and violent extremism generically and we are told that any linkage between these evils and the doctrine
00:05:30.940 of Islam is spurious and nothing more than an expression of Islamophobia incidentally the term
00:05:37.600 Islamophobia was invented in the 1970s by Iranian theocrats to do just this to prevent any criticism
00:05:44.940 of Islam and to cast secularism itself as a form of bigotry Islam is a system of ideas subscribed to by
00:05:53.500 people of every race and ethnicity it's just like Christianity in that regard unlike Judaism Christianity and
00:06:01.060 Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths and they win converts from everywhere people criticize the doctrines of
00:06:09.060 Christianity all the time and worry about their political and social influences but no one confuses this for bigotry against
00:06:16.060 Christians as people much less racism there's no such thing as Christophobia as someone once said and it was not 0.92
00:06:24.060 Christopher Hitchens but it sure sounds like him Islamophobia is a term created by fascists and used by cowards to 0.99
00:06:32.060 manipulate morons in any case fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews don't tend to be confused about the 0.99
00:06:40.060 problem of jihadism because they understand the power of religious beliefs however secular people generally are we 0.99
00:06:48.060 we imagine that people everywhere at bottom want the same things they want to live safe and prosperous lives
00:06:54.060 they want clean drinking water and good schools for their kids and we imagine that if whole groups of
00:07:00.060 people start behaving in extraordinarily destructive ways practicing suicidal terrorism against non-combatants
00:07:06.060 for instance they must have been pushed into extremis by others what could turn ordinary human beings into
00:07:13.060 suicide bombers and what could get vast numbers of their neighbors to celebrate them as 0.76
00:07:17.060 martyrs other than their entire society being oppressed and
00:07:21.060 humiliated to the point of madness by some malign power
00:07:25.060 so in the case of Israel many people imagine that the ghoulish history 0.98
00:07:29.060 of Palestinian terrorism simply indicates how profound the
00:07:33.060 injustice has been on the Israeli side 1.00
00:07:35.060 now there are many things to be said in
00:07:39.060 criticism of Israel in particular its expansion of settlements on contested land
00:07:43.060 but Israel's behavior
00:07:45.060 is not what explains
00:07:47.060 the suicidal and genocidal
00:07:49.060 inclinations of a group like Hamas
00:07:51.060 the Islamic doctrines of
00:07:53.060 martyrdom and jihad do 0.97
00:07:55.060 these are religious beliefs
00:07:57.060 sincerely held
00:07:59.060 their beliefs about the moral structure
00:08:01.060 of the universe
00:08:03.060 and they explain how normal people
00:08:05.060 even good ones
00:08:07.060 commit horrific acts of violence
00:08:09.060 against innocent civilians
00:08:11.060 on purpose
00:08:13.060 not as collateral damage
00:08:15.060 and still consider themselves
00:08:16.060 good
00:08:17.060 when you believe that life in this world
00:08:19.060 has no value
00:08:21.060 apart from deciding who goes to hell 0.71
00:08:23.060 and who goes to paradise
00:08:25.060 it becomes possible to feel perfectly at ease
00:08:27.060 killing non-combatants 0.98
00:08:29.060 or even using your own women and children 0.99
00:08:31.060 as human shields 0.99
00:08:33.060 because you know that any Muslims who get killed 1.00
00:08:35.060 will go straight to paradise 1.00
00:08:37.060 for eternity
00:08:38.060 if you don't understand
00:08:39.060 that jihadists sincerely believe these things 0.96
00:08:41.060 you don't understand the problem
00:08:43.060 that Israel faces 0.53
00:08:45.060 the problem isn't merely Palestinian nationalism
00:08:48.060 or resource competition
00:08:50.060 or any other normal terrestrial grievance
00:08:53.060 in fact the problem isn't even hatred
00:08:56.060 though there's enough of that to go around
00:08:58.060 the problem is religious certainty
00:09:01.060 it really is possible
00:09:03.060 to be critical of Israel
00:09:05.060 and to be committed to the political rights
00:09:07.060 of the Palestinian people
00:09:08.060 without being confused about the reality
00:09:10.060 of Islamic religious fanaticism
00:09:12.060 or the threat that it poses
00:09:14.060 not just to Israel
00:09:15.060 but to open societies everywhere
00:09:17.060 my friend Christopher Hitchens
00:09:19.060 was extremely critical of Israel
00:09:21.060 and openly supportive of Palestinian statehood
00:09:23.060 but he wasn't even slightly confused
00:09:25.060 about the problem of jihad
00:09:27.060 there have been nearly 50,000 acts of Islamic terrorism
00:09:32.060 in the last 40 years
00:09:34.060 and the French group that maintains a database of those attacks
00:09:36.060 considers that to be an undercount
00:09:38.060 90% of them have occurred in Muslim countries
00:09:42.060 most have nothing to do with Israel
00:09:44.060 or the Jews 0.99
00:09:45.060 there have been 82 attacks in France
00:09:47.060 and over 2,000 in Pakistan during that period
00:09:51.060 you want France to be more like Pakistan? 1.00
00:09:53.060 you just need more jihadists 1.00
00:09:56.060 you just need more people
00:09:57.060 susceptible to becoming jihadists
00:09:59.060 which is a transformation
00:10:00.060 that can happen very quickly
00:10:01.060 just as quickly as new beliefs
00:10:03.060 can take root in a person's mind
00:10:05.060 you just need a wider Muslim community
00:10:07.060 that doesn't condemn jihadism
00:10:09.060 but tacitly admits that the theology
00:10:11.060 that inspires it
00:10:12.060 will be true and perfect
00:10:14.060 until the end of the world
00:10:15.060 you just need millions of people
00:10:17.060 who will protest Israel 0.76
00:10:18.060 for defending itself
00:10:19.060 or call for the deaths of cartoonists
00:10:21.060 for depicting the prophet Muhammad
00:10:23.060 and yet not make a peep
00:10:25.060 about jihadist atrocities
00:10:26.060 that occurred daily
00:10:27.060 all over the world
00:10:29.060 in the name of their religion
00:10:31.060 in the West
00:10:32.060 there is now a large industry
00:10:33.060 of apology and obfuscation
00:10:36.060 designed to protect Muslims
00:10:38.060 from having to grapple with these facts
00:10:40.060 the humanities and social science departments
00:10:42.060 of every university
00:10:43.060 are filled with scholars
00:10:45.060 and pseudo-scholars
00:10:46.060 deemed to be experts in terrorism
00:10:48.060 and religion
00:10:50.060 and Islamic jurisprudence
00:10:52.060 and anthropology
00:10:53.060 and political science
00:10:55.060 who claim that Muslim extremism
00:10:57.060 is never what it seems
00:10:59.060 these experts insist
00:11:00.060 that you can never take jihadists 1.00
00:11:01.060 at their word
00:11:02.060 and that none of their declarations
00:11:04.060 about God and paradise
00:11:05.060 and martyrdom
00:11:06.060 and the evils of apostasy
00:11:08.060 have anything to do
00:11:09.060 with their real motivations
00:11:11.060 when one asks
00:11:12.060 what the motivations of jihadists
00:11:14.060 actually are
00:11:15.060 one encounters a tsunami
00:11:17.060 of liberal delusion
00:11:19.060 needless to say
00:11:20.060 the West is to blame 1.00
00:11:21.060 for all the mayhem 0.99
00:11:22.060 we see in Muslim societies 0.99
00:11:24.060 after all
00:11:25.060 how would we feel
00:11:26.060 if outside powers
00:11:27.060 and their map makers
00:11:28.060 had divided our lands
00:11:30.060 and stolen our oil
00:11:31.060 these beleaguered people
00:11:32.060 just want what
00:11:33.060 everyone else wants in life
00:11:34.060 they want economic
00:11:35.060 and political security
00:11:36.060 they want to be free
00:11:37.060 to flourish in ways
00:11:38.060 that would be fully compatible
00:11:40.060 with a global civil society
00:11:41.060 if only they were given the chance
00:11:43.060 secular liberals imagine
00:11:46.060 that jihadists are acting 0.82
00:11:47.060 as anyone else would
00:11:49.060 given a similar history
00:11:50.060 of unhappy encounters
00:11:51.060 with the West
00:11:52.060 and they totally discount
00:11:53.060 the role that religious beliefs
00:11:55.060 play in inspiring groups
00:11:56.060 like Hamas 0.98
00:11:57.060 and Al Qaeda
00:11:58.060 or even the Islamic State
00:11:59.060 to the point where
00:12:00.060 it would be impossible
00:12:01.060 for a jihadist to prove 0.81
00:12:03.060 that he was doing anything
00:12:04.060 for religious reasons
00:12:06.060 apparently
00:12:07.060 it's not enough
00:12:09.060 for an educated person
00:12:10.060 with economic opportunities
00:12:11.060 to devote himself
00:12:13.060 to the most extreme
00:12:14.060 and austere version of Islam
00:12:16.060 and to articulate
00:12:17.060 his religious reasons
00:12:18.060 for doing so ad nauseum
00:12:20.060 and to even go so far
00:12:21.060 as to confess his certainty
00:12:22.060 about martyrdom
00:12:23.060 on video
00:12:24.060 before blowing himself up
00:12:26.060 in a crowd
00:12:27.060 such demonstrations
00:12:28.060 of religious fanaticism
00:12:29.060 are somehow considered
00:12:30.060 rhetorically insufficient
00:12:32.060 to prove that he really believed
00:12:34.060 what he said he believed
00:12:35.060 of course
00:12:36.060 if a white supremacist 1.00
00:12:37.060 goes on a killing spree 1.00
00:12:38.060 in a black church 0.99
00:12:39.060 and says he did this 1.00
00:12:41.060 because he hates black people 1.00
00:12:42.060 and thinks that the white race 1.00
00:12:44.060 is under attack
00:12:45.060 this motive will be accepted
00:12:46.060 at face value
00:12:47.060 without the slightest hesitation
00:12:49.060 this double standard
00:12:51.060 is guaranteed
00:12:52.060 to exonerate Islam 1.00
00:12:53.060 every time
00:12:54.060 the game is rigged
00:12:56.060 do not mistake
00:12:57.060 what I'm saying now
00:12:58.060 for anti-Muslim bigotry
00:13:00.060 I'm talking about
00:13:01.060 the consequences of ideas
00:13:03.060 not the ethnic origins
00:13:04.060 of people
00:13:05.060 not a word I've said
00:13:06.060 or will ever say
00:13:07.060 or will ever say
00:13:08.060 on this topic
00:13:09.060 has anything to do
00:13:10.060 with race
00:13:11.060 and the truth is
00:13:12.060 I'm not even
00:13:13.060 remotely xenophobic
00:13:14.060 I'm a xenophile
00:13:16.060 the Middle East
00:13:17.060 has produced some of my
00:13:18.060 favorite parts of culture
00:13:19.060 some of my favorite foods
00:13:21.060 and music
00:13:22.060 and architecture
00:13:23.060 despite my better judgment
00:13:25.060 I absolutely love
00:13:26.060 the sound of the Muslim 0.99
00:13:28.060 call to prayer
00:13:29.060 everything I'm saying
00:13:31.060 about the problem
00:13:32.060 of jihadism
00:13:33.060 is about the problem
00:13:34.060 of jihadism
00:13:36.060 the triumphal belief
00:13:38.060 by some percentage
00:13:39.060 of the world's Muslims
00:13:40.060 that they must conquer
00:13:41.060 the world
00:13:42.060 for the one true faith
00:13:44.060 through force
00:13:45.060 and that paradise
00:13:46.060 awaits anyone
00:13:47.060 who would sacrifice
00:13:48.060 his or her life
00:13:49.060 to that end
00:13:50.060 of course
00:13:51.060 many religions
00:13:52.060 produce a fair amount
00:13:53.060 of needless suffering 1.00
00:13:54.060 consider the pedophile priest
00:13:57.060 scandal 0.91
00:13:58.060 in the Catholic Church
00:13:59.060 which is something
00:14:00.060 I've written and spoken
00:14:01.060 about before
00:14:02.060 I hope with sufficient outrage
00:14:04.060 one can certainly argue
00:14:05.060 as I have
00:14:06.060 that Catholic teaching
00:14:07.060 is partly to blame
00:14:08.060 for these crimes
00:14:09.060 against children
00:14:10.060 just follow the causality here
00:14:12.060 by making contraception
00:14:14.060 and abortion taboo
00:14:15.060 the church ensured
00:14:17.060 that there would be many
00:14:18.060 out of wedlock births
00:14:19.060 among its faithful
00:14:20.060 and by stigmatizing
00:14:22.060 unwed mothers 0.88
00:14:23.060 it further guaranteed
00:14:24.060 that many children
00:14:25.060 would be abandoned
00:14:26.060 to church run orphanages
00:14:27.060 where they could be preyed upon 0.72
00:14:29.060 by sexually unhealthy men
00:14:30.060 I don't think any of this
00:14:32.060 was consciously planned
00:14:33.060 it's just a grotesque consequence
00:14:35.060 of some very bad ideas
00:14:37.060 and yet the truth is
00:14:38.060 there is no direct link
00:14:39.060 between Christian scripture 0.98
00:14:41.060 and child rape 0.99
00:14:42.060 however
00:14:43.060 imagine if there were
00:14:45.060 just imagine
00:14:46.060 if the New Testament
00:14:48.060 contained multiple passages
00:14:50.060 promising heaven
00:14:51.060 to any priest 1.00
00:14:52.060 who raped a child 1.00
00:14:53.060 and then imagine 0.99
00:14:55.060 that in the aftermath
00:14:57.060 of an endless series
00:14:58.060 of child rapes 0.98
00:15:00.060 within the church 0.92
00:15:01.060 more or less
00:15:02.060 every journalist
00:15:03.060 and politician
00:15:04.060 and academic
00:15:05.060 denied
00:15:06.060 that they had anything
00:15:07.060 whatsoever to do
00:15:08.060 with the quote
00:15:09.060 true teachings
00:15:10.060 of Catholicism
00:15:11.060 that is the uncanny situation
00:15:13.060 we find ourselves in
00:15:14.060 with respect to Islam
00:15:16.060 the problem
00:15:17.060 that we have to grapple with
00:15:19.060 and by we I mean
00:15:20.060 Muslims and non-Muslims alike
00:15:22.060 is that the doctrines
00:15:23.060 that directly support
00:15:24.060 jihadist violence
00:15:26.060 are very easy to find
00:15:27.060 in the Quran
00:15:28.060 and the Hadith
00:15:29.060 and in the biography
00:15:30.060 of Muhammad
00:15:31.060 for Muslims
00:15:33.060 Muhammad is the greatest
00:15:34.060 person who has ever lived
00:15:36.060 unfortunately
00:15:37.060 he did not behave
00:15:38.060 like Jesus
00:15:39.060 or Buddha
00:15:40.060 at all
00:15:41.060 it sort of matters
00:15:43.060 that he tortured people 0.99
00:15:44.060 and cut their heads off 1.00
00:15:46.060 and took sex slaves 1.00
00:15:48.060 because his example
00:15:49.060 is meant to inspire
00:15:50.060 his followers
00:15:51.060 for all time
00:15:54.060 there are many many verses
00:15:56.060 in the Quran
00:15:57.060 that urge Muslims
00:15:58.060 to wage jihad
00:15:59.060 jihad as holy war 0.99
00:16:01.060 against apostates 0.67
00:16:02.060 and unbelievers
00:16:03.060 and the most violent
00:16:04.060 of these
00:16:05.060 are thought to supersede
00:16:06.060 any that seem
00:16:07.060 more benign
00:16:08.060 but the truth is
00:16:09.060 there isn't much
00:16:10.060 that is benign
00:16:11.060 in the Quran
00:16:12.060 there is certainly
00:16:13.060 no Jesus
00:16:14.060 as we find him in Matthew
00:16:15.060 urging people
00:16:16.060 to love their enemies
00:16:17.060 and turn the other cheek
00:16:18.060 all the decapitation
00:16:20.060 we see being practiced 0.77
00:16:21.060 by jihadists
00:16:22.060 isn't an accident
00:16:23.060 it's in the Quran
00:16:25.060 and in the larger record
00:16:26.060 of the life of the prophet
00:16:27.060 worse in my view
00:16:29.060 is the moral logic
00:16:30.060 one gets
00:16:31.060 from the doctrine
00:16:32.060 of martyrdom
00:16:33.060 and paradise
00:16:34.060 if you take
00:16:35.060 martyrdom and paradise
00:16:36.060 seriously
00:16:37.060 it becomes impossible
00:16:39.060 to make moral errors
00:16:41.060 as I said
00:16:42.060 if you blow yourself
00:16:43.060 up in a crowd 0.99
00:16:44.060 your fellow Muslims 0.93
00:16:45.060 will go straight
00:16:46.060 to paradise
00:16:47.060 you've actually
00:16:48.060 done them a favor
00:16:49.060 unbelievers 1.00
00:16:50.060 will go to hell 1.00
00:16:51.060 where they belong 1.00
00:16:52.060 however many lives
00:16:53.060 you destroy
00:16:54.060 it's all good
00:16:55.060 again
00:16:56.060 most of this horror
00:16:58.060 has nothing to do
00:16:59.060 with Israel
00:17:00.060 or the West
00:17:01.060 in 2014
00:17:03.060 six jihadis
00:17:04.060 affiliated with
00:17:05.060 the Pakistani Taliban
00:17:06.060 attacked a school
00:17:07.060 in Peshawar
00:17:08.060 these jihadis
00:17:09.060 came from outside
00:17:10.060 of Pakistan
00:17:11.060 there was a Chechen 0.99
00:17:12.060 and two Afghans
00:17:14.060 and three Arabs
00:17:15.060 they murdered
00:17:16.060 145 people
00:17:17.060 132 of whom
00:17:20.060 were children
00:17:21.060 they burned
00:17:22.060 a teacher alive
00:17:23.060 in front of her students
00:17:25.060 and then killed 0.96
00:17:26.060 all the children 0.97
00:17:27.060 they could get their hands on
00:17:28.060 they didn't take
00:17:29.060 any hostages
00:17:30.060 they had no list
00:17:31.060 of demands
00:17:32.060 they intended to die
00:17:34.060 to achieve martyrdom
00:17:35.060 and they did die
00:17:37.060 so they got at least
00:17:38.060 half of what they wanted
00:17:39.060 it is very difficult
00:17:41.060 for secular people
00:17:42.060 to understand
00:17:43.060 how this behavior
00:17:45.060 could be possible 0.62
00:17:47.060 they assume only madmen
00:17:48.060 would do this sort of thing
00:17:50.060 but that's the horror of it
00:17:52.060 you don't have to be mad
00:17:54.060 to be a jihadist
00:17:56.060 you don't even have to be
00:17:57.060 a bad person
00:17:58.060 you just have to be
00:18:00.060 a true believer
00:18:01.060 you just have to know
00:18:03.060 for sure
00:18:04.060 that you and all the good people
00:18:06.060 will get everything you want
00:18:08.060 after you die
00:18:09.060 and that the creator of the universe
00:18:11.060 wants nothing more 1.00
00:18:12.060 than for you to kill unbelievers 1.00
00:18:14.060 here's what a supporter 0.97
00:18:16.060 of the Pakistani Taliban
00:18:17.060 said when interviewed
00:18:18.060 about that school massacre
00:18:20.060 this is a direct quote
00:18:22.060 human life only has value
00:18:24.060 among you worldly
00:18:25.060 materialist thinkers
00:18:27.060 for us this human life
00:18:28.060 is only a tiny
00:18:29.060 meaningless fragment
00:18:30.060 of our existence
00:18:31.060 our real destination
00:18:33.060 is the hereafter
00:18:34.060 we don't just believe
00:18:35.060 it exists
00:18:36.060 we know it does
00:18:37.060 death is not
00:18:38.060 the end of life
00:18:39.060 it is the beginning
00:18:40.060 of existence
00:18:41.060 in a world much more beautiful
00:18:42.060 than this
00:18:43.060 as you know
00:18:44.060 the Urdu word for death
00:18:45.060 is intikal
00:18:46.060 it means transfer
00:18:48.060 not end
00:18:49.060 paradise is for those 1.00
00:18:50.060 of pure hearts
00:18:51.060 all children
00:18:52.060 have pure hearts
00:18:53.060 they have not sinned yet
00:18:55.060 they have not yet been corrupted
00:18:56.060 we did not end their lives
00:18:58.060 we gave them new ones
00:18:59.060 in paradise
00:19:00.060 where they will be loved
00:19:01.060 more than you can imagine
00:19:03.060 they will be rewarded
00:19:04.060 for their martyrdom
00:19:05.060 after all
00:19:06.060 we also martyr ourselves
00:19:07.060 with them
00:19:08.060 the last words they heard
00:19:10.060 were the slogan of Takbir
00:19:11.060 Allahu Akbar
00:19:12.060 God is great
00:19:13.060 Allah Almighty
00:19:15.060 says himself
00:19:16.060 in Surah Al-Imran
00:19:17.060 that they are not dead
00:19:18.060 you will never understand this
00:19:20.060 if your faith is pure
00:19:22.060 you will not mourn them
00:19:23.060 but celebrate their birth
00:19:25.060 into paradise
00:19:26.060 ok my point
00:19:28.060 is that we have to take declarations
00:19:30.060 of this kind
00:19:31.060 at face value
00:19:32.060 because they are honest
00:19:34.060 confessions of a world view
00:19:36.060 and it is a world view
00:19:38.060 that is totally antithetical
00:19:40.060 to everything
00:19:41.060 that civilized people value
00:19:42.060 in the 21st century
00:19:44.060 this problem
00:19:45.060 is much bigger
00:19:46.060 than the ongoing crisis
00:19:48.060 between Israel
00:19:49.060 and the Palestinians 0.55
00:19:50.060 as many of you know
00:19:51.060 I've always had a paradoxical
00:19:52.060 position on Israel
00:19:54.060 I've said that
00:19:55.060 I don't think it should exist
00:19:56.060 as a Jewish state
00:19:57.060 because in my view
00:19:58.060 organizing a state
00:19:59.060 around a religion
00:20:00.060 is irrational
00:20:01.060 and divisive
00:20:02.060 ok this falls directly
00:20:04.060 from my views about
00:20:05.060 organized religion
00:20:06.060 in general
00:20:07.060 so obviously I don't think
00:20:08.060 it should be Muslim states
00:20:09.060 either
00:20:10.060 or Christian ones 0.98
00:20:11.060 for that matter
00:20:12.060 however there are over
00:20:13.060 20 countries
00:20:14.060 in which Islam
00:20:15.060 is the official state
00:20:16.060 religion
00:20:17.060 and over 50
00:20:18.060 in which Muslims
00:20:19.060 are the majority
00:20:20.060 and there's exactly
00:20:21.060 one Jewish state 0.70
00:20:22.060 given the history
00:20:23.060 of genocidal antisemitism
00:20:24.060 which persists
00:20:25.060 even now
00:20:26.060 mostly in the Muslim world
00:20:28.060 given that Jews 0.96
00:20:29.060 have been run out
00:20:30.060 of every country
00:20:31.060 in the Middle East
00:20:32.060 and North Africa
00:20:33.060 if any people deserve
00:20:35.060 a state of their own
00:20:36.060 organized on any premise
00:20:37.060 they want
00:20:38.060 it's the Jews 1.00
00:20:39.060 in 1939
00:20:41.060 the SS St. Louis
00:20:43.060 a ship carrying
00:20:44.060 over 900 Jews
00:20:45.060 seeking to escape
00:20:46.060 the Holocaust 0.82
00:20:47.060 was denied entry
00:20:49.060 into Cuba
00:20:50.060 and the United States
00:20:51.060 and Canada
00:20:52.060 and then forced
00:20:53.060 to return to Europe 0.95
00:20:54.060 where many of those Jews
00:20:55.060 ended up in the ovens
00:20:56.060 of Auschwitz
00:20:57.060 in my view
00:20:58.060 that's all the justification
00:21:00.060 for Israel one needs
00:21:02.060 never again 0.97
00:21:03.060 should Jews
00:21:04.060 have to beg 0.96
00:21:05.060 to stand
00:21:06.060 on some dry patch
00:21:07.060 of earth
00:21:08.060 only to be denied one
00:21:09.060 and then systematically murdered
00:21:11.060 as I've said before
00:21:13.060 on this podcast
00:21:14.060 I've never taken
00:21:15.060 modern antisemitism
00:21:16.060 very seriously
00:21:18.060 I think I've done
00:21:19.060 exactly one episode
00:21:20.060 on the topic
00:21:21.060 I've studied it
00:21:22.060 I understand its roots
00:21:24.060 in Christian theology
00:21:25.060 despite the fact
00:21:26.060 that Jesus
00:21:27.060 and his apostles
00:21:28.060 and the Virgin Mary
00:21:29.060 were all Jews
00:21:30.060 I'm a student
00:21:31.060 of the Holocaust 0.63
00:21:32.060 I'm well aware
00:21:33.060 of the antisemitism
00:21:34.060 that existed in Europe
00:21:35.060 and the US
00:21:36.060 at the time
00:21:37.060 read David Wyman's book
00:21:39.060 The Abandonment of the Jews 0.93
00:21:41.060 to understand how widespread
00:21:42.060 antisemitism was
00:21:43.060 in America
00:21:44.060 even as Jews
00:21:45.060 were being killed
00:21:46.060 by the millions
00:21:47.060 in Europe
00:21:48.060 and of course
00:21:49.060 I'm all too aware
00:21:50.060 of the antisemitism
00:21:51.060 that is endemic to Islam 0.98
00:21:52.060 and of the way
00:21:53.060 it has been compressed
00:21:54.060 into a diamond
00:21:55.060 of intolerance
00:21:56.060 and hatred 0.73
00:21:57.060 in the Muslim world
00:21:58.060 by the modern influence
00:21:59.060 of Nazism 0.85
00:22:00.060 there's some very depressing
00:22:01.060 history there
00:22:02.060 for anyone who wants
00:22:03.060 to read it
00:22:04.060 and I've been aware
00:22:05.060 that year after year
00:22:06.060 in the United States
00:22:07.060 no group
00:22:08.060 has been targeted
00:22:09.060 with more hate
00:22:10.060 and hate crime 0.99
00:22:11.060 than Jews 0.99
00:22:12.060 this is something
00:22:13.060 that many Americans
00:22:14.060 aren't aware of
00:22:15.060 as I said
00:22:16.060 the American left
00:22:17.060 would have you believe
00:22:18.060 that Islamophobia
00:22:19.060 is a major concern
00:22:20.060 Vice President Kamala Harris
00:22:22.060 is now heading
00:22:23.060 a commission
00:22:24.060 on Islamophobia
00:22:25.060 in America
00:22:26.060 a problem
00:22:27.060 we've been seeing
00:22:28.060 in recent weeks
00:22:29.060 just a massive outpouring
00:22:30.060 of hatred 0.97
00:22:31.060 for Muslims 0.71
00:22:32.060 in America
00:22:33.060 by non-Muslims
00:22:34.060 has that ever happened?
00:22:36.060 even in the immediate
00:22:37.060 aftermath of 9-11
00:22:39.060 Jews were targeted
00:22:40.060 far more than Muslims 1.00
00:22:42.060 and that has been true
00:22:43.060 every year since
00:22:44.060 according to FBI statistics
00:22:46.060 though Jews are just 0.99
00:22:47.060 over 2% of the population
00:22:49.060 they receive over half
00:22:50.060 the hate in America
00:22:51.060 and five times the level 0.99
00:22:53.060 that Muslims do 1.00
00:22:54.060 and I think it's safe
00:22:55.060 to say that much of this hate 0.99
00:22:56.060 comes from Muslims 0.94
00:22:57.060 themselves
00:22:58.060 Jewish schools
00:22:59.060 and synagogues 1.00
00:23:00.060 have always incurred
00:23:01.060 greater security costs
00:23:02.060 than non-Jewish institutions
00:23:04.060 and for good reason
00:23:05.060 because the threat
00:23:06.060 to them is greatest
00:23:07.060 now while this status quo
00:23:09.060 has been despicable
00:23:11.060 I have always believed
00:23:13.060 that it was tolerable
00:23:14.060 and I say this
00:23:15.060 as someone who has received
00:23:16.060 death threats
00:23:17.060 for two decades
00:23:18.060 and many of these threats
00:23:19.060 are often explicitly
00:23:20.060 anti-Semitic
00:23:21.060 even given all of this
00:23:23.060 I have felt that
00:23:24.060 anti-Semitism
00:23:25.060 as a real threat to Jews 1.00
00:23:27.060 certainly in the West
00:23:28.060 was behind us
00:23:30.060 I can't say that now
00:23:31.060 in the last few weeks
00:23:34.060 with Jews being openly reviled
00:23:36.060 and threatened 0.90
00:23:37.060 all over the world
00:23:38.060 in the immediate aftermath
00:23:39.060 of the most shocking
00:23:40.060 atrocities committed
00:23:41.060 against them
00:23:42.060 since the Holocaust 0.89
00:23:43.060 I've begun to think
00:23:45.060 that anything
00:23:46.060 is possible
00:23:47.060 incidentally
00:23:48.060 if you ever wondered
00:23:49.060 how you might have behaved
00:23:51.060 had you been a German
00:23:52.060 on the morning after
00:23:53.060 Kristallnacht 0.64
00:23:54.060 if you ever wondered
00:23:55.060 whether you would have
00:23:56.060 just gone about your business
00:23:57.060 or done something
00:23:58.060 to resist the slide
00:23:59.060 of your society
00:24:00.060 into absolute depravity
00:24:02.060 more or less everyone
00:24:03.060 on earth
00:24:04.060 is now getting a chance
00:24:05.060 to see just that
00:24:07.060 there was a mob
00:24:09.060 chanting 0.53
00:24:10.060 gas the Jews 1.00
00:24:11.060 in front of the 0.83
00:24:12.060 Sydney Opera House
00:24:14.060 we have Jewish students
00:24:15.060 in Ivy League universities
00:24:17.060 cowering behind locked doors
00:24:19.060 in fear for their
00:24:20.060 physical safety
00:24:21.060 all university administrators
00:24:24.060 and diversity
00:24:25.060 equity and inclusion
00:24:26.060 geniuses
00:24:27.060 and Hollywood celebrities
00:24:28.060 who rush to sign
00:24:29.060 open letters
00:24:30.060 in support of the
00:24:31.060 Palestinian cause
00:24:32.060 without taking a moment
00:24:33.060 to understand
00:24:34.060 what actually happened
00:24:35.060 on October 7th
00:24:36.060 or understanding it
00:24:38.060 and not caring
00:24:39.060 you are all now
00:24:40.060 part of history
00:24:42.060 the outpouring
00:24:43.060 of anti-Semitism
00:24:44.060 that we have witnessed
00:24:45.060 since October 7th
00:24:46.060 really seems to mark
00:24:48.060 a new moment
00:24:49.060 both in the US
00:24:50.060 and globally
00:24:51.060 and for the first time
00:24:53.060 I now worry
00:24:54.060 that my daughters
00:24:55.060 will live in a world
00:24:56.060 where their Jewishness
00:24:57.060 will matter to people
00:24:58.060 who do not wish them well
00:25:00.060 and they'll be forced
00:25:01.060 to make certain life choices
00:25:02.060 on that basis
00:25:03.060 choices that I never
00:25:04.060 had to make
00:25:05.060 apart from being
00:25:06.060 a public figure
00:25:07.060 and having to deal
00:25:08.060 with disordered people
00:25:09.060 of every description
00:25:10.060 I have never been concerned
00:25:12.060 about anti-Semitism
00:25:13.060 for even five minutes
00:25:15.060 in my life
00:25:16.060 I now feel that I have
00:25:18.060 been quite naive
00:25:19.060 and that's putting it
00:25:21.060 charitably
00:25:22.060 I have been utterly 0.93
00:25:23.060 ignorant
00:25:24.060 of what has been going 0.99
00:25:25.060 on beneath the surface
00:25:26.060 I guess there were
00:25:28.060 some recent intimations
00:25:29.060 of this
00:25:30.060 that caught my attention
00:25:31.060 I did criticize
00:25:32.060 Elon Musk
00:25:33.060 for how he handled
00:25:34.060 the deluge of anti-Semitism
00:25:35.060 that came onto Twitter
00:25:36.060 once he started
00:25:37.060 randomly turning knobs
00:25:38.060 and flipping switches
00:25:39.060 over there
00:25:40.060 like a villain
00:25:41.060 in a James Bond movie
00:25:43.060 is he still threatening
00:25:44.060 to sue the Anti-Defamation League?
00:25:46.060 that would be a prudent
00:25:47.060 use of resources
00:25:48.060 wouldn't it?
00:25:49.060 right about now 0.99
00:25:50.060 let's sue the Jews 1.00
00:25:51.060 for complaining about 1.00
00:25:52.060 murderous anti-Semitism
00:25:53.060 on the platform
00:25:54.060 that I own
00:25:55.060 why are the Jews 1.00
00:25:56.060 so worried about
00:25:57.060 conspiracy theories
00:25:58.060 that make people
00:25:59.060 want to kill them? 0.53
00:26:00.060 can't they take a joke? 1.00
00:26:02.060 I thought Jews 0.99
00:26:03.060 were funny
00:26:05.060 I also criticized
00:26:06.060 Lex Friedman
00:26:07.060 for platforming Kanye
00:26:09.060 how does that decision
00:26:10.060 look now?
00:26:11.060 anyone in alternative media
00:26:13.060 want to stick a microphone
00:26:14.060 in front of Kanye
00:26:15.060 so he can tell us more
00:26:16.060 about how much 0.95
00:26:17.060 he hates Jews?
00:26:18.060 or what about RFK Jr?
00:26:20.060 can we get a tech bro
00:26:21.060 interview with RFK Jr.
00:26:23.060 where he just asked
00:26:24.060 some more questions
00:26:25.060 about COVID being engineered
00:26:26.060 not to infect Ashkenazi Jews?
00:26:28.060 I mean we're in the
00:26:29.060 free speech business
00:26:30.060 right?
00:26:31.060 what's wrong with just
00:26:32.060 asking questions?
00:26:33.060 surely Alex Jones
00:26:34.060 has got some questions
00:26:35.060 he'd like to ask about
00:26:36.060 whether any of the
00:26:37.060 Jews in Israel
00:26:38.060 were really lizard people 0.99
00:26:40.060 anything less than
00:26:41.060 a full airing
00:26:42.060 of these profundities
00:26:43.060 would amount to
00:26:44.060 censorship
00:26:45.060 right?
00:26:46.060 do I sound snide?
00:26:48.060 ok I will let that go
00:26:51.060 to be clear
00:26:52.060 I don't think
00:26:53.060 Elon and Lex
00:26:54.060 and RFK Jr.
00:26:55.060 are anti-Semites
00:26:56.060 I just think
00:26:57.060 they have been
00:26:58.060 reckless
00:26:59.060 and morally
00:27:00.060 unserious
00:27:01.060 and unwise
00:27:03.060 of course
00:27:05.060 of course
00:27:06.060 the boundary
00:27:07.060 between anti-Semitism
00:27:08.060 and generic 1.00
00:27:09.060 moral stupidity 1.00
00:27:11.060 is a little hard 1.00
00:27:12.060 to discern
00:27:13.060 ok?
00:27:14.060 and I'm not sure
00:27:15.060 it's always important
00:27:16.060 to find it
00:27:17.060 I'm not sure it matters
00:27:18.060 why a person can't
00:27:19.060 distinguish between
00:27:20.060 collateral damage
00:27:21.060 in a necessary war
00:27:22.060 and conscious acts
00:27:23.060 of genocidal sadism
00:27:25.060 that are celebrated
00:27:26.060 as religious sacrament
00:27:27.060 by a death cult
00:27:29.060 our streets have been
00:27:30.060 filled with people
00:27:31.060 literally tripping
00:27:32.060 over themselves
00:27:33.060 in their eagerness
00:27:34.060 to demonstrate
00:27:35.060 that they cannot
00:27:36.060 distinguish between
00:27:37.060 those who intentionally
00:27:38.060 kill babies
00:27:39.060 and those who inadvertently 1.00
00:27:40.060 kill them 0.85
00:27:41.060 having taken great pains 1.00
00:27:42.060 to avoid killing them
00:27:44.060 while defending themselves
00:27:45.060 against the very people 0.56
00:27:46.060 who have just
00:27:47.060 intentionally tortured
00:27:48.060 and killed
00:27:49.060 innocent men 0.53
00:27:50.060 women 1.00
00:27:51.060 and yes
00:27:52.060 babies
00:27:53.060 and who are committed
00:27:54.060 to doing this again
00:27:55.060 at any opportunity
00:27:56.060 and who are using
00:27:57.060 their own innocent
00:27:58.060 non-combatants
00:27:59.060 as human shields
00:28:01.060 if you're both sizing
00:28:02.060 this situation
00:28:03.060 or worse
00:28:04.060 if you're supporting
00:28:05.060 the wrong side
00:28:06.060 if you're waving the flag
00:28:07.060 of people who murder
00:28:08.060 non-combatants intentionally
00:28:10.060 killing parents
00:28:11.060 in front of their children 0.97
00:28:12.060 and children in front
00:28:13.060 of their parents
00:28:14.060 burning people alive
00:28:15.060 at a music festival
00:28:16.060 devoted to peace
00:28:17.060 and decapitating others 0.94
00:28:19.060 and dragging their 0.99
00:28:20.060 dismembered bodies
00:28:21.060 through the streets
00:28:22.060 all to shouts
00:28:23.060 of God is great
00:28:24.060 if you're recognizing
00:28:25.060 the humanity
00:28:26.060 of actual barbarians
00:28:28.060 while demonizing
00:28:29.060 the people
00:28:30.060 who worry about war crimes
00:28:31.060 and who drop leaflets
00:28:33.060 and call cell phones
00:28:34.060 for days
00:28:35.060 in an effort
00:28:36.060 to get non-combatants
00:28:37.060 to leave specific buildings
00:28:38.060 before they are bombed
00:28:39.060 because those buildings
00:28:40.060 sit on top of tunnels
00:28:41.060 filled with 0.99
00:28:42.060 genocidal lunatics 1.00
00:28:44.060 who again 1.00
00:28:45.060 have just sedulously tortured
00:28:47.060 and murdered families 0.64
00:28:49.060 as though it were
00:28:50.060 a religious sacrament
00:28:51.060 because for them
00:28:52.060 it is a religious sacrament
00:28:54.060 if you have landed
00:28:56.060 proudly
00:28:57.060 and sanctimoniously
00:28:59.060 on the wrong side
00:29:01.060 of this asymmetry
00:29:02.060 this vast gulf
00:29:04.060 between savagery
00:29:05.060 and civilization
00:29:06.060 while marching
00:29:07.060 through the quad
00:29:08.060 of an Ivy League university
00:29:09.060 wearing yoga pants
00:29:11.060 I'm not sure
00:29:12.060 it matters
00:29:13.060 that your moral confusion
00:29:14.060 is due to the fact
00:29:15.060 that you just happen 0.99
00:29:16.060 to hate Jews 0.95
00:29:17.060 whether you're 0.98
00:29:18.060 an anti-Semite
00:29:19.060 or just an apologist 0.97
00:29:20.060 for atrocity
00:29:21.060 is probably immaterial
00:29:23.060 the crucial point
00:29:25.060 is that you are
00:29:26.060 dangerously confused
00:29:27.060 about the moral norms
00:29:29.060 and political sympathies
00:29:31.060 that make life
00:29:32.060 in this world
00:29:33.060 worth living
00:29:35.060 what is more
00:29:36.060 you don't even care about
00:29:37.060 what you think
00:29:38.060 you care about
00:29:39.060 because you have failed
00:29:40.060 to see that Hamas 0.95
00:29:41.060 and jihadists generally
00:29:42.060 are the principal cause 0.99
00:29:43.060 of all the misery
00:29:44.060 and dysfunction
00:29:45.060 we see
00:29:46.060 not just in Gaza
00:29:47.060 but throughout
00:29:48.060 the Muslim world
00:29:50.060 Gaza is only a 0.99
00:29:51.060 quote open-air prison
00:29:52.060 because its democratically
00:29:54.060 elected government
00:29:55.060 is a jihadist organization
00:29:57.060 that is eager 0.97
00:29:58.060 to martyr all 0.99
00:29:59.060 Palestinians 1.00
00:30:00.060 for the pleasure 1.00
00:30:01.060 of killing Jews 1.00
00:30:02.060 a rational government 1.00
00:30:04.060 in Gaza
00:30:05.060 that cared about
00:30:06.060 the fate of its citizens
00:30:07.060 could have made
00:30:08.060 something beautiful
00:30:09.060 out of that strip of land
00:30:10.060 on the Mediterranean
00:30:11.060 or at least
00:30:12.060 not awful
00:30:13.060 but Hamas 0.60
00:30:14.060 has spent billions
00:30:15.060 of dollars
00:30:16.060 on terrorism
00:30:17.060 the suffering
00:30:18.060 of Gaza
00:30:19.060 Gaza
00:30:20.060 is due to the fact
00:30:21.060 that it has been run
00:30:22.060 by a death cult
00:30:23.060 against which Israel 0.75
00:30:24.060 has had to defend itself
00:30:26.060 continuously
00:30:28.060 the line you keep hearing
00:30:30.060 from defenders of Israel
00:30:31.060 that if the Palestinians 0.99
00:30:32.060 put down their weapons
00:30:33.060 there would be peace
00:30:34.060 but if the Israelis
00:30:35.060 put down their weapons
00:30:36.060 there would be a genocide
00:30:37.060 happens to be true
00:30:40.060 but now we have college students
00:30:42.060 at our best universities
00:30:43.060 tearing down posters
00:30:45.060 of hostages
00:30:46.060 held by Hamas
00:30:47.060 some of whom
00:30:48.060 are Americans
00:30:49.060 and some of whom
00:30:50.060 are children
00:30:51.060 imagining that they're
00:30:52.060 supporting the
00:30:53.060 Palestinian cause
00:30:54.060 it boggles the mind
00:30:56.060 we have LGBTQ activists
00:30:59.060 supporting Hamas 0.83
00:31:01.060 when they wouldn't
00:31:02.060 survive a day
00:31:03.060 in Gaza
00:31:04.060 because Hamas 0.73
00:31:05.060 throws anyone suspected 0.92
00:31:06.060 of being gay 0.98
00:31:07.060 off of rooftops 0.76
00:31:08.060 they're directly supported
00:31:09.060 by Iran 0.66
00:31:10.060 where gay people 0.98
00:31:11.060 are regularly hung 0.98
00:31:12.060 we've got feminist organizations 1.00
00:31:14.060 like Code Pink
00:31:16.060 going all in
00:31:17.060 for Hamas
00:31:18.060 and accusing
00:31:19.060 the Israelis
00:31:20.060 of genocide 0.52
00:31:21.060 do they understand
00:31:22.060 how Hamas 0.81
00:31:23.060 treats women? 1.00
00:31:25.060 did Code Pink
00:31:26.060 support the women
00:31:27.060 of Iran
00:31:28.060 who were thrown into prison
00:31:29.060 and even killed
00:31:30.060 for daring to show
00:31:31.060 their hair in public?
00:31:33.060 do they realize
00:31:34.060 that women are treated
00:31:35.060 like property
00:31:36.060 throughout the Muslim world
00:31:37.060 and that this is not
00:31:38.060 an accident?
00:31:40.060 under Islam
00:31:41.060 the central message
00:31:42.060 about women
00:31:44.060 is that they are
00:31:45.060 second-class citizens 0.65
00:31:46.060 and the property
00:31:47.060 of the men in their lives
00:31:49.060 rather than support
00:31:50.060 the rights of women
00:31:51.060 and girls
00:31:52.060 to not live as slaves
00:31:53.060 Western liberals
00:31:54.060 support the rights
00:31:55.060 of theocrats
00:31:56.060 to treat their wives 0.98
00:31:57.060 and daughters
00:31:58.060 however they want
00:32:00.060 as long as these
00:32:01.060 theocrats 0.94
00:32:02.060 are Muslim
00:32:04.060 if anything good
00:32:05.060 comes out of this
00:32:06.060 outpouring of hate
00:32:07.060 and moral confusion
00:32:08.060 it will be the end
00:32:09.060 of identitarian politics
00:32:11.060 on the left
00:32:12.060 a friend of mine
00:32:13.060 was just at an art opening
00:32:15.060 where they were passing
00:32:16.060 hors d'oeuvres
00:32:17.060 and someone she knew
00:32:18.060 came up to her
00:32:19.060 and asked her if she had
00:32:20.060 any food in her teeth 1.00
00:32:21.060 my friend said
00:32:22.060 no your teeth are
00:32:23.060 perfectly white
00:32:24.060 and beautiful
00:32:25.060 unfortunately the woman 1.00
00:32:26.060 herself was black 0.63
00:32:27.060 and considered
00:32:28.060 the association
00:32:29.060 of the terms
00:32:30.060 white and beautiful
00:32:31.060 to be a microaggression
00:32:32.060 she got greatly offended
00:32:34.060 and stormed off
00:32:35.060 did she want brown teeth? 1.00
00:32:37.060 I know nothing more
00:32:39.060 about this person
00:32:40.060 apart from this anecdote
00:32:41.060 but I guarantee you
00:32:43.060 that this prodigy
00:32:44.060 of social justice
00:32:46.060 is completely confused
00:32:48.060 about Israel
00:32:49.060 and Hamas
00:32:50.060 and jihadism
00:32:51.060 this is the sort of person
00:32:52.060 for whom words
00:32:53.060 are violence 0.98
00:32:54.060 but massacring women 1.00
00:32:55.060 and children 0.99
00:32:56.060 with knives 1.00
00:32:57.060 or burning them alive 0.99
00:32:59.060 is a completely 0.99
00:33:00.060 defensible response
00:33:01.060 to quote
00:33:02.060 oppression
00:33:03.060 most elite circles
00:33:05.060 in the West
00:33:06.060 academia
00:33:07.060 Hollywood
00:33:08.060 the media
00:33:09.060 non-profits
00:33:10.060 have been poisoned
00:33:12.060 to one degree or another
00:33:13.060 by this social justice
00:33:15.060 psychosis
00:33:16.060 where imaginary harms
00:33:18.060 are seized upon
00:33:19.060 as though they were
00:33:20.060 existential concerns
00:33:21.060 and pure evil
00:33:23.060 is easily shrugged off
00:33:25.060 or even celebrated
00:33:26.060 as a moral victory
00:33:27.060 in a previous podcast
00:33:30.060 I argued that the bright line
00:33:32.060 ethically
00:33:33.060 between Israel
00:33:34.060 and her enemies 0.73
00:33:35.060 can be seen
00:33:36.060 on the question
00:33:37.060 of human shields
00:33:38.060 there are people
00:33:39.060 who use them
00:33:40.060 and there are people
00:33:41.060 who are deterred
00:33:42.060 by them
00:33:43.060 however imperfectly
00:33:44.060 Hamas put its headquarters 0.98
00:33:45.060 in Gaza
00:33:46.060 under a hospital
00:33:47.060 let me say that again
00:33:49.060 Hamas put its headquarters 0.98
00:33:51.060 in Gaza
00:33:52.060 under a hospital
00:33:53.060 again
00:33:54.060 imagine the Jews 1.00
00:33:55.060 of Israel
00:33:56.060 doing that
00:33:57.060 and imagine how little
00:33:58.060 it would matter
00:33:59.060 to Hamas
00:34:00.060 if they did
00:34:01.060 Hamas is telling people
00:34:03.060 to stay in place
00:34:04.060 in Gaza
00:34:05.060 and even physically
00:34:06.060 preventing them
00:34:07.060 from leaving 0.81
00:34:08.060 so that they will be killed 0.79
00:34:09.060 by Israeli bombs 0.73
00:34:10.060 they are using
00:34:11.060 their own people
00:34:12.060 as human shields
00:34:14.060 in addition to more
00:34:15.060 than 200 hostages
00:34:16.060 they took for this purpose
00:34:17.060 no one cares less
00:34:19.060 about Palestinian women
00:34:21.060 and children
00:34:22.060 than Hamas does 0.99
00:34:24.060 however horrible
00:34:25.060 the image is coming out
00:34:26.060 of Gaza
00:34:27.060 it is Hamas 0.80
00:34:28.060 that should be blamed
00:34:29.060 the loss of life there
00:34:30.060 you are calling
00:34:31.060 for a cease fire
00:34:32.060 now
00:34:33.060 there was a cease fire
00:34:35.060 on October 6th
00:34:36.060 Hamas broke it
00:34:38.060 by deliberately murdering
00:34:39.060 more than 1400
00:34:40.060 innocent people
00:34:41.060 of course
00:34:43.060 Israel should hold 1.00
00:34:44.060 itself to the highest
00:34:45.060 ethical standards
00:34:46.060 for waging war
00:34:47.060 for two reasons
00:34:48.060 one
00:34:49.060 because it should
00:34:50.060 it is right
00:34:51.060 for the IDF
00:34:52.060 to do whatever it can
00:34:53.060 to minimize the loss
00:34:54.060 of innocent life
00:34:55.060 and two
00:34:57.060 they should hold themselves
00:34:58.060 to the highest ethical standards
00:35:00.060 because the rest of the world
00:35:01.060 will hold them
00:35:02.060 to impossible ones
00:35:03.060 look at these protests
00:35:05.060 we are seeing
00:35:06.060 all over the world
00:35:07.060 which began
00:35:08.060 before Israel 0.75
00:35:09.060 had dropped
00:35:10.060 a single bomb
00:35:11.060 now that there have been
00:35:12.060 several thousand
00:35:13.060 Palestinian casualties
00:35:14.060 cities across the globe
00:35:16.060 are seething
00:35:18.060 with rage
00:35:19.060 but Assad
00:35:20.060 has killed
00:35:21.060 hundreds of thousands 1.00
00:35:22.060 of his fellow Muslims
00:35:24.060 in Syria 0.98
00:35:25.060 the Saudis have killed 1.00
00:35:26.060 well over 100,000 Muslims 0.63
00:35:27.060 in Yemen
00:35:29.060 where are the protests
00:35:30.060 no one cares 0.97
00:35:32.060 least of all Muslims 0.97
00:35:34.060 they only care 0.91
00:35:36.060 when non-Muslims 0.98
00:35:38.060 produce these casualties
00:35:39.060 and they especially care 0.99
00:35:41.060 when Jews do it 1.00
00:35:43.060 Israel is routinely 1.00
00:35:45.060 condemned
00:35:46.060 by the United Nations
00:35:48.060 and yet the UN
00:35:49.060 could not pass
00:35:50.060 a condemnation
00:35:51.060 of Hamas
00:35:52.060 for the atrocities
00:35:54.060 it committed
00:35:55.060 on October 7th
00:35:56.060 if this isn't
00:35:57.060 anti-Semitism
00:35:58.060 at the level of nations
00:36:00.060 I don't know
00:36:01.060 what to call it
00:36:02.060 as I said
00:36:03.060 I don't know whether
00:36:04.060 this ground invasion
00:36:05.060 is the right approach
00:36:06.060 but there's no question
00:36:07.060 that Israel had to act 0.97
00:36:08.060 they have to destroy Hamas
00:36:10.060 and whatever they do 0.90
00:36:12.060 non-combatants
00:36:13.060 will get killed
00:36:14.060 in the process 0.97
00:36:15.060 again
00:36:16.060 this is Hamas's fault 1.00
00:36:18.060 but the problem
00:36:19.060 is much bigger
00:36:20.060 than Hamas 0.95
00:36:21.060 civilized people
00:36:23.060 everywhere
00:36:24.060 both non-Muslim
00:36:25.060 and Muslim
00:36:26.060 have no choice 0.94
00:36:27.060 but to combat
00:36:28.060 jihadism
00:36:29.060 this has been
00:36:30.060 glaringly obvious
00:36:31.060 since September 11th
00:36:32.060 2001
00:36:33.060 but it should be
00:36:34.060 much more obvious
00:36:35.060 now
00:36:36.060 for Israel
00:36:37.060 October 7th
00:36:38.060 was much worse
00:36:39.060 than 9-11 was
00:36:40.060 for America
00:36:41.060 there's almost
00:36:42.060 no comparison
00:36:43.060 the revealed threat
00:36:44.060 to Israel
00:36:45.060 really is existential
00:36:47.060 however in the long term
00:36:49.060 I think the threat
00:36:50.060 of jihadism
00:36:51.060 is existential
00:36:52.060 for the West too
00:36:53.060 this demands
00:36:54.060 a much longer conversation
00:36:55.060 about what to do
00:36:56.060 about jihadism
00:36:57.060 I happen to think
00:36:58.060 that most of our response
00:36:59.060 to it should be covert
00:37:00.060 I don't know why
00:37:01.060 the Israelis
00:37:02.060 or the Americans 0.81
00:37:03.060 or the British 0.78
00:37:04.060 or anyone else
00:37:05.060 has to take credit
00:37:06.060 for anything
00:37:07.060 however long it takes
00:37:08.060 members of Hamas
00:37:10.060 and Hezbollah
00:37:11.060 and Al-Qaeda
00:37:12.060 and the Islamic State
00:37:13.060 and Al-Shabaab
00:37:14.060 and Boko Haram
00:37:16.060 and the Pakistani Taliban
00:37:17.060 and every other
00:37:19.060 jihadist organization
00:37:20.060 on earth
00:37:21.060 should be made
00:37:22.060 to understand
00:37:23.060 every day of their lives
00:37:25.060 that the martyrdom
00:37:26.060 they seek
00:37:27.060 will be granted
00:37:28.060 to them
00:37:29.060 jihadism
00:37:30.060 has to be destroyed
00:37:31.060 in every way
00:37:32.060 that it can be destroyed
00:37:34.060 logistically
00:37:35.060 economically
00:37:36.060 informationally
00:37:38.060 but also in the most
00:37:39.060 material sense 0.90
00:37:41.060 which means killing 1.00
00:37:42.060 a lot of jihadists 1.00
00:37:43.060 we can argue
00:37:44.060 with their sympathizers
00:37:45.060 and we can hope
00:37:46.060 to de-radicalize them 1.00
00:37:47.060 but we also have to kill 1.00
00:37:50.060 committed jihadists 1.00
00:37:51.060 these are not normal antagonists
00:37:54.060 with rational demands
00:37:55.060 these are not people
00:37:56.060 who want
00:37:57.060 what we want
00:37:58.060 this is not politics
00:38:00.060 and it will never be
00:38:02.060 politics
00:38:03.060 it is a very long war
00:38:06.060 back in 2016
00:38:08.060 I released an episode
00:38:09.060 of this podcast titled
00:38:10.060 what do jihadists really want
00:38:13.060 based on an issue
00:38:14.060 of the magazine
00:38:15.060 Dabiq
00:38:16.060 put out by the Islamic State
00:38:17.060 you can listen to that
00:38:18.060 for more detail
00:38:20.060 you can also read the book
00:38:21.060 I wrote with Majid Nawaz
00:38:22.060 Islam and the Future of Tolerance 0.82
00:38:24.060 to understand more of my thinking
00:38:26.060 on this topic
00:38:27.060 jihadist ideology
00:38:29.060 has nothing to do
00:38:30.060 with Israel
00:38:31.060 or American foreign policy
00:38:33.060 or colonialism
00:38:34.060 or any other rational grievance
00:38:36.060 and there is no concession
00:38:38.060 that any civilized society
00:38:40.060 can make to appease it
00:38:41.060 we've forgotten about jihadism
00:38:44.060 in recent years
00:38:45.060 but it hasn't gone away
00:38:47.060 whatever one thinks about
00:38:48.060 our withdrawal from Afghanistan
00:38:50.060 it was surely perceived
00:38:51.060 as a victory
00:38:52.060 by jihadists everywhere
00:38:54.060 and the implications of that
00:38:55.060 have yet to be felt
00:38:56.060 in the West
00:38:57.060 we tend to remain
00:38:58.060 blissfully unaware
00:38:59.060 of Islamic terrorism 0.85
00:39:00.060 which is just another name
00:39:01.060 for jihadism
00:39:02.060 unless it happens
00:39:03.060 in the US or Europe
00:39:05.060 we don't tend to notice
00:39:06.060 jihadist atrocities
00:39:07.060 committed in Afghanistan
00:39:09.060 or Pakistan
00:39:10.060 or India
00:39:11.060 much less
00:39:12.060 in the dozen or so countries
00:39:13.060 in Africa
00:39:14.060 that suffer them
00:39:15.060 more or less continuously
00:39:16.060 and we are totally unaware
00:39:17.060 of foiled plots
00:39:18.060 of which there have been many
00:39:20.060 as I said
00:39:21.060 we also tend to think
00:39:22.060 in terms of terrorism
00:39:23.060 or violent extremism
00:39:25.060 and while I use those terms
00:39:26.060 myself
00:39:27.060 we have to focus
00:39:28.060 on jihadism
00:39:29.060 because that is the underlying
00:39:31.060 ideological commitment
00:39:32.060 now
00:39:34.060 jihadists themselves
00:39:35.060 are not a unified front
00:39:36.060 there is a very deep
00:39:38.060 schism between Sunni
00:39:39.060 and Shia
00:39:40.060 despite the fact
00:39:41.060 that some groups
00:39:42.060 will collaborate across it
00:39:43.060 as we see with Hamas 0.93
00:39:44.060 and the Iranian regime
00:39:45.060 and their internecine divisions
00:39:47.060 even among jihadists
00:39:48.060 of the same faith
00:39:49.060 the Afghan
00:39:51.060 and Pakistani Taliban
00:39:52.060 don't even get along
00:39:53.060 at this point
00:39:54.060 and that is a very good thing
00:39:56.060 hopefully we have
00:39:57.060 an army of smart people
00:39:58.060 with the necessary
00:39:59.060 language skills
00:40:00.060 sowing hatred
00:40:01.060 and confusion
00:40:02.060 among jihadist groups
00:40:03.060 24 hours a day
00:40:04.060 but jihadists are all united 0.53
00:40:07.060 in their hatred
00:40:08.060 of liberal western values
00:40:09.060 and in their certainty
00:40:10.060 of paradise
00:40:11.060 and in their willingness
00:40:12.060 to turn this world
00:40:13.060 into an abattoir
00:40:14.060 for the glory of God
00:40:16.060 we cannot tolerate jihadists 1.00
00:40:19.060 we cannot let them
00:40:20.060 immigrate into our open societies 0.99
00:40:22.060 and by we
00:40:23.060 I mean not just non-Muslims
00:40:26.060 I mean all Muslims
00:40:27.060 who want to live sane lives
00:40:29.060 in the 21st century
00:40:30.060 in the case of Israel
00:40:32.060 and Palestine
00:40:33.060 the Palestinians
00:40:34.060 have to rid themselves 0.77
00:40:35.060 of their jihadists 0.78
00:40:37.060 and if that's not possible
00:40:39.060 a stable peace
00:40:40.060 with the Palestinians
00:40:41.060 is not possible
00:40:44.060 but this problem
00:40:45.060 is so much bigger
00:40:46.060 than Israel 0.83
00:40:47.060 or even global anti-semitism
00:40:49.060 I spend some time reading
00:40:51.060 about how the Islamic State
00:40:52.060 treats Shiites 1.00
00:40:54.060 or look at the history
00:40:55.060 of terrorism
00:40:56.060 in Pakistan
00:40:57.060 or India
00:40:58.060 if you want a totally painless
00:41:00.060 way to do this
00:41:01.060 watch Hotel Mumbai
00:41:02.060 it's a great film
00:41:04.060 it depicts the terrorist attacks
00:41:05.060 in Mumbai in 2008
00:41:07.060 by the Pakistani group
00:41:08.060 Lashkar-e-Taiba
00:41:09.060 if you've forgotten
00:41:10.060 around a dozen jihadists
00:41:12.060 killed over 160 people
00:41:14.060 in Mumbai
00:41:15.060 many at the Taj Hotel
00:41:16.060 and the film shows this
00:41:18.060 with brutal realism
00:41:20.060 and while they killed 0.98
00:41:21.060 some Jews too 0.77
00:41:22.060 at a Jewish center
00:41:24.060 this attack
00:41:25.060 had nothing to do
00:41:26.060 with Israel
00:41:27.060 or America
00:41:28.060 or race
00:41:29.060 or so-called
00:41:30.060 settler colonialism
00:41:31.060 or any of the other factors
00:41:33.060 that leftist fellow travelers
00:41:35.060 have been fixated on
00:41:36.060 since October 7th
00:41:38.060 really
00:41:39.060 this is the least boring
00:41:40.060 piece of homework
00:41:41.060 you will ever be given
00:41:42.060 go watch Hotel Mumbai
00:41:44.060 and once the killing starts
00:41:46.060 ask yourself
00:41:48.060 how anyone
00:41:49.060 East or West
00:41:51.060 Muslim or non-Muslim 0.99
00:41:53.060 can live with these people
00:41:55.060 there's an intuition out there
00:41:57.060 that in order to solve
00:41:58.060 the problems in the Middle East
00:41:59.060 we must understand them
00:42:01.060 in all their depth
00:42:02.060 and complexity
00:42:03.060 and for this
00:42:04.060 the most important thing
00:42:05.060 to grapple with
00:42:06.060 is the so-called
00:42:07.060 historical context
00:42:08.060 but for the purpose
00:42:09.060 of really understanding
00:42:10.060 this conflict
00:42:11.060 and why it is so intractable
00:42:13.060 historical context
00:42:15.060 is a distraction
00:42:17.060 every moment spent
00:42:18.060 talking about something
00:42:19.060 other than jihadism
00:42:20.060 is a moment
00:42:21.060 when the oxygen
00:42:22.060 of moral sanity
00:42:23.060 is leaving the room
00:42:25.060 there's no sorting this out
00:42:26.060 by reference to history
00:42:28.060 because any group
00:42:29.060 can arbitrarily decide
00:42:30.060 where to set the dial
00:42:31.060 on its time machine
00:42:32.060 in any case
00:42:33.060 the Jews in Israel
00:42:34.060 are indigenous people
00:42:36.060 the British
00:42:37.060 were colonialists
00:42:38.060 colonialists
00:42:39.060 have some place
00:42:40.060 to go back to
00:42:41.060 where could the Jews 1.00
00:42:43.060 go back to?
00:42:44.060 there has been
00:42:45.060 a continuous presence
00:42:46.060 of Jews
00:42:47.060 in what is now Israel
00:42:48.060 for thousands of years
00:42:49.060 most of the recent immigrants
00:42:51.060 Jews from Iraq
00:42:52.060 and Syria
00:42:53.060 and Yemen
00:42:54.060 and Libya
00:42:55.060 and other Muslim majority countries
00:42:56.060 were driven from their homes
00:42:57.060 by their Muslim neighbors
00:42:58.060 after 1948
00:43:00.060 in collective punishment
00:43:01.060 for the founding of Israel
00:43:03.060 is anyone talking about
00:43:04.060 their right of return?
00:43:05.060 there are displaced people
00:43:07.060 everywhere on earth
00:43:08.060 but only the Palestinians 0.96
00:43:10.060 have been turned into
00:43:11.060 a global fetish
00:43:12.060 for their so-called
00:43:13.060 right of return
00:43:14.060 incidentally
00:43:15.060 if a history
00:43:16.060 of land theft
00:43:17.060 and oppression
00:43:18.060 were sufficient
00:43:19.060 to produce
00:43:20.060 genocidal terrorism
00:43:21.060 where are the 0.88
00:43:22.060 Native American
00:43:23.060 suicide bombers?
00:43:24.060 where are the 0.75
00:43:25.060 Tibetan Buddhist 0.88
00:43:26.060 suicide bombers?
00:43:27.060 and do you realize
00:43:28.060 how much oppression
00:43:29.060 they've experienced
00:43:30.060 at the hands of the Chinese?
00:43:31.060 where are the
00:43:32.060 Palestinian Christian 0.99
00:43:33.060 suicide bombers? 0.96
00:43:34.060 I think there has been one
00:43:37.060 the truth is
00:43:39.060 ideas matter
00:43:41.060 it absolutely matters
00:43:43.060 what people believe
00:43:45.060 certainty about paradise
00:43:47.060 and about martyrdom
00:43:48.060 as a way of getting there
00:43:49.060 is one of the most potent
00:43:51.060 mimetic poisons
00:43:52.060 the human mind
00:43:53.060 has ever produced
00:43:55.060 whatever historical
00:43:56.060 or political
00:43:57.060 or economic context
00:43:59.060 you want to apply
00:44:00.060 to Israel and Palestine
00:44:02.060 jihadism is real 0.99
00:44:05.060 its intentions
00:44:06.060 toward the Jews
00:44:07.060 and infidels 1.00
00:44:08.060 and apostates 0.99
00:44:09.060 are genocidal 0.98
00:44:11.060 and this is a global
00:44:12.060 problem
00:44:13.060 because jihadism
00:44:14.060 enjoys an appalling
00:44:15.060 level of support
00:44:16.060 throughout the Muslim world
00:44:18.060 despite the fact
00:44:19.060 that it's responsible
00:44:20.060 for far more death
00:44:21.060 and destruction 1.00
00:44:22.060 among Muslims
00:44:23.060 than Israel's acts 0.81
00:44:24.060 of self-defense
00:44:25.060 have ever been
00:44:26.060 now obviously
00:44:28.060 there are whole populations
00:44:29.060 throughout the Muslim world
00:44:31.060 that are effectively
00:44:32.060 hostages
00:44:33.060 to the religious fanatics
00:44:34.060 that control them
00:44:35.060 and certainly a large percentage
00:44:37.060 of the Palestinians
00:44:38.060 fit that description
00:44:39.060 as does much of Iran 0.56
00:44:41.060 but it is very easy
00:44:42.060 to underestimate
00:44:43.060 how much sympathy
00:44:44.060 there is for the jihadist
00:44:45.060 project among Muslims
00:44:46.060 who are not themselves
00:44:47.060 actively waging jihad
00:44:49.060 and this is a terrible
00:44:51.060 thing to contemplate
00:44:52.060 when 100,000 people
00:44:54.060 show up in the center
00:44:55.060 of London
00:44:56.060 in support of Hamas
00:44:58.060 we have a problem
00:44:59.060 of course
00:45:00.060 it's an open question
00:45:01.060 how many of those people
00:45:02.060 really support jihad 0.88
00:45:04.060 but imagining
00:45:05.060 that very few of them do
00:45:07.060 is pure delusion
00:45:09.060 we have to win
00:45:10.060 a war of ideas
00:45:11.060 with these people
00:45:12.060 because if the future
00:45:13.060 is going to be
00:45:14.060 remotely tolerable
00:45:15.060 the vast majority
00:45:17.060 of Muslims
00:45:18.060 have to disavow jihadism
00:45:20.060 and unite with non-Muslims
00:45:22.060 in fighting it
00:45:23.060 in fighting it
00:45:24.060 when hundreds of thousands
00:45:25.060 of people
00:45:26.060 show up in London
00:45:27.060 to condemn Hamas
00:45:29.060 or the Islamic State
00:45:30.060 or any specific instance
00:45:32.060 of jihadist savagery
00:45:33.060 without both sides
00:45:35.060 in anything
00:45:36.060 then we will know
00:45:37.060 we have made
00:45:38.060 a modicum of progress
00:45:39.060 when Muslims
00:45:40.060 by the millions
00:45:41.060 pour into the streets
00:45:43.060 in protest
00:45:44.060 not over cartoons
00:45:46.060 depicting the prophet Muhammad
00:45:47.060 but over the murder
00:45:48.060 of cartoonists
00:45:49.060 by their own
00:45:50.060 religious fanatics
00:45:51.060 we will know
00:45:52.060 that an open-ended future
00:45:54.060 of pluralistic tolerance
00:45:55.060 might be possible
00:45:57.060 yes there are many other problems
00:45:59.060 in the world
00:46:00.060 at the moment
00:46:01.060 there's the war in Ukraine
00:46:02.060 and the looming possibility
00:46:03.060 of a conflict
00:46:04.060 between the US and China
00:46:05.060 some of these problems
00:46:06.060 appear much bigger
00:46:07.060 than jihadism
00:46:08.060 but they all admit
00:46:10.060 of some rational basis
00:46:12.060 for negotiation
00:46:13.060 and compromise
00:46:14.060 however bad things get
00:46:16.060 with the Russians
00:46:17.060 or the Chinese 0.98
00:46:18.060 they are not chanting 0.92
00:46:19.060 we love death
00:46:21.060 more than the Americans 0.99
00:46:22.060 and Europeans
00:46:23.060 love life
00:46:24.060 only jihadism 0.50
00:46:26.060 has the power
00:46:27.060 to turn our future
00:46:28.060 into a zombie movie
00:46:30.060 jihadists
00:46:31.060 are the enemy
00:46:32.060 with whom there is
00:46:33.060 no rational
00:46:34.060 or pragmatic compromise
00:46:35.060 to make
00:46:36.060 ever
00:46:38.060 so as I've said
00:46:39.060 many times before
00:46:40.060 the Muslim world
00:46:42.060 needs to win a war
00:46:43.060 of ideas
00:46:44.060 with itself
00:46:45.060 and perhaps several civil wars
00:46:47.060 it has to de-radicalize
00:46:49.060 itself
00:46:50.060 it has to transform
00:46:51.060 the doctrine of jihad
00:46:53.060 into something
00:46:54.060 far more benign
00:46:55.060 than it is
00:46:56.060 and it has to stop
00:46:57.060 supporting
00:46:58.060 its religious fanatics
00:46:59.060 when they come
00:47:00.060 into conflict
00:47:01.060 with non-Muslims 0.99
00:47:02.060 this is what is so toxic 1.00
00:47:05.060 Muslims 1.00
00:47:06.060 supporting other Muslims
00:47:08.060 no matter how 0.99
00:47:09.060 sociopathic 1.00
00:47:10.060 and insane 0.59
00:47:11.060 their behavior 0.90
00:47:12.060 and if the Muslim world
00:47:13.060 and the political left
00:47:14.060 can't stand
00:47:16.060 against jihadism
00:47:17.060 it's only a matter of time
00:47:19.060 before their moral blindness
00:47:20.060 fully empowers
00:47:21.060 right-wing authoritarianism
00:47:23.060 in the West
00:47:25.060 if secular liberals
00:47:26.060 won't create
00:47:27.060 secure borders 0.99
00:47:29.060 Christian fascists 1.00
00:47:30.060 will 0.97
00:47:32.060 there may be two sides
00:47:33.060 to the past
00:47:34.060 but there really aren't
00:47:35.060 two sides
00:47:36.060 to the present
00:47:37.060 there are two sides
00:47:38.060 to the story
00:47:39.060 of how the Palestinians
00:47:40.060 and Jews
00:47:41.060 came to fight over land
00:47:42.060 in the Middle East
00:47:43.060 understanding all of that
00:47:44.060 is important
00:47:45.060 and I think it's important
00:47:46.060 to understand
00:47:47.060 the cynical game
00:47:48.060 that the Arab world
00:47:49.060 has played with the plight
00:47:50.060 of the Palestinians
00:47:51.060 for the last 50 years
00:47:52.060 if there's a stable
00:47:53.060 political settlement
00:47:54.060 to ever be reached
00:47:55.060 between Israel
00:47:56.060 and the Palestinians 0.55
00:47:57.060 it will entail
00:47:58.060 a full untangling
00:47:59.060 of the facts
00:48:00.060 from all the propaganda
00:48:01.060 that obscures them
00:48:02.060 while keeping the problem
00:48:03.060 of jihadism
00:48:04.060 in view
00:48:05.060 it will also entail 0.99
00:48:06.060 that the religious lunatics 1.00
00:48:07.060 on the Jewish side 1.00
00:48:08.060 get sidelined
00:48:09.060 as I said
00:48:11.060 the building of settlements
00:48:12.060 has been a continuous provocation
00:48:13.060 but even on the point
00:48:15.060 of religious fanaticism
00:48:16.060 there really aren't
00:48:17.060 two sides
00:48:18.060 worth talking about
00:48:19.060 now
00:48:20.060 whatever terrible things 0.96
00:48:21.060 Israeli settlers 0.92
00:48:22.060 occasionally do
00:48:23.060 and these are crimes
00:48:24.060 for which they should
00:48:25.060 be prosecuted
00:48:26.060 generally speaking
00:48:27.060 the world
00:48:28.060 does not have a problem 0.66
00:48:29.060 with Jewish religious fanatics
00:48:30.060 targeting Muslims 0.99
00:48:31.060 in their mosques
00:48:32.060 and schools
00:48:33.060 you literally can't open
00:48:35.060 a Jewish school
00:48:36.060 in Paris
00:48:37.060 because no one
00:48:38.060 will insure it
00:48:39.060 yes 0.99
00:48:40.060 there are lunatics 0.99
00:48:41.060 on both sides 0.99
00:48:42.060 but the consequences
00:48:43.060 of their lunacy
00:48:44.060 are not equivalent
00:48:45.060 not even
00:48:46.060 remotely
00:48:47.060 equivalent
00:48:48.060 we haven't spent
00:48:49.060 the last 20 years
00:48:50.060 taking our shoes
00:48:51.060 off at the airport
00:48:52.060 because there are 0.93
00:48:53.060 so many fanatical Jews 1.00
00:48:54.060 eager to blow themselves 1.00
00:48:55.060 up on airplanes
00:48:56.060 there is a bright line
00:48:58.060 between good
00:48:59.060 and a very specific
00:49:01.060 form of evil
00:49:02.060 that we must keep
00:49:03.060 in view
00:49:04.060 it is the evil
00:49:05.060 of bad ideas
00:49:07.060 ideas
00:49:08.060 so bad
00:49:09.060 that they can make
00:49:10.060 even ordinary
00:49:11.060 human beings
00:49:12.060 impossible 0.57
00:49:13.060 to live with
00:49:14.060 there is a piece
00:49:15.060 of audio
00:49:16.060 from October 7th
00:49:17.060 that many people
00:49:18.060 have commented on
00:49:19.060 it is a recording
00:49:20.060 of a cell phone call
00:49:21.060 that a member of Hamas
00:49:22.060 made to his family
00:49:23.060 while he was in the process
00:49:24.060 of massacring
00:49:25.060 innocent men 0.96
00:49:26.060 the man is ecstatic
00:49:28.060 telling his father
00:49:29.060 and mother
00:49:30.060 and I believe brother
00:49:31.060 that he has just killed 0.99
00:49:32.060 ten Jews 1.00
00:49:33.060 with his own hands 0.98
00:49:34.060 he had just murdered
00:49:35.060 a husband
00:49:36.060 and wife
00:49:37.060 and was now calling
00:49:38.060 his family
00:49:39.060 from the dead woman's phone
00:49:40.060 I am not going to act
00:49:41.060 as ecstatic
00:49:43.060 as he was
00:49:44.060 but here is the translation
00:49:46.060 hi dad
00:49:47.060 open my whatsapp now
00:49:48.060 and you will see 0.98
00:49:49.060 those killed 0.97
00:49:50.060 look how many I killed 0.55
00:49:51.060 with my own hands 1.00
00:49:52.060 your son killed Jews 0.99
00:49:53.060 and his dad says 0.99
00:49:54.060 may God protect you
00:49:56.060 dad I am talking to you
00:49:57.060 from a Jewish woman's phone 1.00
00:49:58.060 I killed her 1.00
00:49:59.060 and I killed her husband 1.00
00:50:00.060 I killed ten 1.00
00:50:01.060 with my own hands 0.96
00:50:02.060 dad ten with my own hands
00:50:03.060 dad open whatsapp now
00:50:04.060 and see how many 0.97
00:50:05.060 I killed dad 0.97
00:50:06.060 open the phone dad 1.00
00:50:07.060 I am calling you
00:50:08.060 on whatsapp
00:50:09.060 open the phone
00:50:10.060 go 1.00
00:50:11.060 dad I killed ten 0.99
00:50:12.060 ten with my own hands 0.96
00:50:13.060 their blood
00:50:14.060 is on their hands
00:50:15.060 I believe that is
00:50:16.060 a reference to the Quran
00:50:17.060 put mom on 0.66
00:50:19.060 and the father says
00:50:21.060 oh my son
00:50:22.060 god bless you
00:50:23.060 I swear ten
00:50:24.060 with my own hands 0.68
00:50:25.060 mother I killed ten 0.95
00:50:26.060 with my own hands
00:50:27.060 and his father says
00:50:28.060 may God bring you
00:50:29.060 home safely
00:50:30.060 dad go back to whatsapp
00:50:31.060 now
00:50:32.060 dad I want to do
00:50:33.060 a live broadcast
00:50:34.060 and the mother now
00:50:35.060 says I wish I was
00:50:36.060 with you
00:50:37.060 mom your son
00:50:38.060 is a hero
00:50:39.060 and then apparently
00:50:40.060 talking to his
00:50:41.060 comrades he yells 1.00
00:50:42.060 kill kill kill 1.00
00:50:43.060 kill them 1.00
00:50:44.060 and his brother gets 1.00
00:50:45.060 on the line
00:50:46.060 asking where he is
00:50:47.060 and he tells his brother
00:50:48.060 the name of the town
00:50:49.060 and then he says 0.84
00:50:50.060 I killed ten 0.89
00:50:51.060 in my own hands 1.00
00:50:52.060 I'm talking to you
00:50:53.060 from a jews phone 0.55
00:50:54.060 and the brother says
00:50:55.060 you killed ten 0.93
00:50:56.060 yes I killed ten 0.99
00:50:57.060 I swear
00:50:58.060 and then he says
00:50:59.060 I'm the first to enter
00:51:00.060 on the protection
00:51:01.060 and help of Allah
00:51:02.060 surely another
00:51:03.060 scriptural reference
00:51:04.060 hold your head up
00:51:05.060 father hold your head up
00:51:06.060 see on whatsapp 0.99
00:51:07.060 those that I killed
00:51:08.060 open my whatsapp 0.87
00:51:09.060 and his brother says
00:51:10.060 come back
00:51:11.060 come back
00:51:12.060 and he says
00:51:13.060 what do you mean
00:51:14.060 come back
00:51:15.060 there's no going back
00:51:16.060 it's either death
00:51:17.060 or victory
00:51:18.060 give birth to me
00:51:19.060 for the religion
00:51:20.060 what's with you
00:51:21.060 how would I return
00:51:22.060 open whatsapp
00:51:23.060 see the dead
00:51:24.060 open it
00:51:25.060 and the mother sounds
00:51:26.060 like she's trying
00:51:27.060 to figure out
00:51:28.060 how to open whatsapp
00:51:29.060 open whatsapp on your phone
00:51:30.060 and see the dead 0.99
00:51:31.060 how I killed them 1.00
00:51:32.060 with my own hands 0.99
00:51:33.060 and she says
00:51:34.060 well promise to come back
00:51:36.060 and then the call ends
00:51:38.060 now I don't speak
00:51:39.060 any Arabic
00:51:40.060 and it seems to me
00:51:41.060 that not every word
00:51:42.060 in the audio
00:51:43.060 that's being circulated
00:51:44.060 was translated
00:51:45.060 but I think we get the gist
00:51:48.060 when I spoke to Graham Wood
00:51:49.060 about this
00:51:50.060 he said that to him
00:51:51.060 the mother and father
00:51:52.060 sounded more shocked
00:51:53.060 and worried
00:51:54.060 than anything else
00:51:55.060 which would be understandable
00:51:57.060 but I would submit to you
00:51:58.060 that this piece of audio
00:52:00.060 is more than just
00:52:01.060 the worst whatsapp commercial
00:52:03.060 ever conceived
00:52:04.060 it is a window
00:52:05.060 onto a culture
00:52:06.060 as I told Graham
00:52:08.060 this is not the type of call
00:52:09.060 that would have been placed
00:52:10.060 from Vietnam
00:52:11.060 by an American
00:52:12.060 who had just participated
00:52:13.060 in the My Lai Massacre
00:52:14.060 nor is it the parental reaction
00:52:16.060 one would expect
00:52:17.060 from an American family
00:52:18.060 had their beloved son
00:52:20.060 just called them
00:52:21.060 from a killing field
00:52:22.060 I mean as terrible
00:52:23.060 as Vietnam was 0.52
00:52:25.060 can you imagine
00:52:26.060 a call back to Nebraska 0.77
00:52:28.060 mom I killed ten 0.93
00:52:29.060 with my own hands 0.99
00:52:30.060 I killed a woman 1.00
00:52:31.060 and her husband 1.00
00:52:32.060 I'm calling you
00:52:33.060 from the dead woman's phone
00:52:34.060 mom your son
00:52:35.060 is a hero
00:52:36.060 do you see
00:52:37.060 what a total aberration
00:52:39.060 that would have been
00:52:40.060 even in extremis
00:52:42.060 this call wasn't
00:52:44.060 a total aberration
00:52:45.060 this wasn't Ted Bundy
00:52:47.060 calling his mom
00:52:49.060 this was an ordinary member
00:52:51.060 of Hamas
00:52:52.060 a group that still might win
00:52:54.060 an election today
00:52:55.060 especially in the West Bank
00:52:57.060 calling an ordinary
00:52:58.060 Palestinian family
00:52:59.060 and the mere existence
00:53:01.060 of that call
00:53:02.060 to say nothing
00:53:03.060 of its contents
00:53:04.060 reveals something
00:53:05.060 about the wider culture
00:53:06.060 among the Palestinians
00:53:07.060 it's important to point out
00:53:09.060 that not only members
00:53:10.060 of Hamas
00:53:11.060 but ordinary Gazans
00:53:13.060 appear to have taken part
00:53:14.060 in the torture
00:53:15.060 and murder
00:53:16.060 of innocent Israelis
00:53:17.060 and the taking of hostages
00:53:18.060 how many did this
00:53:20.060 how many ordinary Gazans
00:53:21.060 were dancing in the streets
00:53:23.060 and spitting on the captured
00:53:24.060 women and girls
00:53:25.060 who were paraded before them
00:53:26.060 after having been raped 0.82
00:53:27.060 and tortured 0.89
00:53:28.060 what percentage of Palestinians
00:53:30.060 in Gaza
00:53:31.060 or the West Bank
00:53:32.060 many of whom are said
00:53:33.060 to hate Hamas
00:53:34.060 for their corruption 0.99
00:53:35.060 and incompetence
00:53:36.060 and brutality
00:53:37.060 nevertheless support
00:53:38.060 what they did on October 7th
00:53:40.060 with a clear conscience
00:53:41.060 based on what they believe
00:53:42.060 about Jews
00:53:43.060 and the ethics of Jihad
00:53:44.060 I don't know
00:53:45.060 but I am sure
00:53:46.060 that the answers
00:53:47.060 to these questions
00:53:48.060 would be quite alarming
00:53:50.060 we are talking about
00:53:52.060 a culture
00:53:53.060 that teaches 0.96
00:53:54.060 Jew hatred 0.98
00:53:55.060 and the love of martyrdom 0.95
00:53:56.060 in its elementary schools
00:53:58.060 many of which are funded
00:53:59.060 by the UN
00:54:01.060 of course
00:54:02.060 all of this horror
00:54:03.060 is compounded
00:54:04.060 by the irony
00:54:06.060 that the Jews
00:54:07.060 who were killed
00:54:08.060 on October 7th
00:54:09.060 were for the most part
00:54:10.060 committed liberals
00:54:11.060 and peace activists
00:54:13.060 Hamas killed
00:54:14.060 the sorts of people
00:54:15.060 who volunteered
00:54:16.060 to drive sick Palestinians 1.00
00:54:18.060 into Israel
00:54:19.060 for medical treatments
00:54:20.060 they murdered
00:54:21.060 the most idealistic people
00:54:23.060 in Israel 1.00
00:54:24.060 they raped 0.99
00:54:25.060 tortured 1.00
00:54:26.060 and killed
00:54:27.060 young people
00:54:28.060 at a trance dance
00:54:30.060 music festival
00:54:31.060 devoted to peace
00:54:32.060 half of whom
00:54:33.060 were probably
00:54:34.060 on MDMA
00:54:35.060 feeling nothing
00:54:36.060 but love
00:54:37.060 for all humanity
00:54:38.060 when the Jihadists 0.84
00:54:39.060 arrived
00:54:40.060 in terms of a cultural
00:54:42.060 and moral distance 1.00
00:54:43.060 it's like the fucking Vikings 1.00
00:54:45.060 showed up at Burning Man 1.00
00:54:47.060 and butchered everyone 0.63
00:54:48.060 in sight
00:54:49.060 I mean just think
00:54:50.060 about what happened
00:54:51.060 at the Supernova
00:54:53.060 music festival
00:54:54.060 at least 260 people
00:54:56.060 were murdered
00:54:57.060 in the most sadistically
00:54:58.060 gruesome ways possible 0.87
00:55:00.060 decapitated
00:55:02.060 burned alive 0.98
00:55:03.060 blown up with grenades 0.96
00:55:05.060 and from the Jihadist side
00:55:07.060 this wasn't an error
00:55:09.060 it's not that if they
00:55:10.060 could have known
00:55:11.060 what was in the hearts
00:55:12.060 of those beautiful young people
00:55:13.060 they would have thought
00:55:14.060 oh my god
00:55:15.060 we're killing the wrong people
00:55:17.060 these people aren't
00:55:18.060 our enemies
00:55:19.060 these people are filled
00:55:20.060 with love and compassion
00:55:21.060 and want nothing more
00:55:22.060 than to live in peace with us
00:55:23.060 no
00:55:24.060 the true horror
00:55:26.060 is that given what
00:55:28.060 Jihadists believe 0.99
00:55:29.060 these were precisely
00:55:31.060 the sorts of people 1.00
00:55:32.060 any good Muslim should kill 1.00
00:55:33.060 and send to hell 1.00
00:55:34.060 where they can be tortured 1.00
00:55:36.060 in fire 0.99
00:55:37.060 for eternity
00:55:38.060 from the Jihadist point of view
00:55:41.060 there is no mistake here
00:55:43.060 and there is no basis
00:55:44.060 for remorse
00:55:46.060 please absorb this fact
00:55:49.060 for the Jihadist 0.59
00:55:50.060 all of this sadism
00:55:52.060 the torture and murder
00:55:54.060 of helpless
00:55:55.060 terrified people
00:55:56.060 is an act of worship
00:55:59.060 this is the sacrament
00:56:02.060 this isn't some nauseating departure
00:56:04.060 from the path to God
00:56:06.060 this isn't stalled
00:56:07.060 spiritual progress
00:56:09.060 much less sin
00:56:11.060 this is what you do
00:56:13.060 for the glory of God
00:56:14.060 this is what Muhammad himself
00:56:17.060 did
00:56:19.060 there's no substitute
00:56:20.060 a substitute
00:56:21.060 for understanding
00:56:22.060 what our enemies
00:56:23.060 actually want
00:56:24.060 and believe
00:56:26.060 I'm pretty sure
00:56:27.060 that many of you
00:56:28.060 listening to this
00:56:29.060 aren't even comfortable
00:56:30.060 with my use of the term
00:56:32.060 enemy
00:56:33.060 because you don't want to believe
00:56:34.060 that you have any
00:56:35.060 I understand that
00:56:36.060 but you have to understand
00:56:38.060 that the people
00:56:39.060 who butchered
00:56:40.060 over 1400
00:56:41.060 innocent men
00:56:42.060 women and children
00:56:43.060 in Israel
00:56:44.060 on October 7th
00:56:45.060 were practicing
00:56:46.060 their religion
00:56:47.060 sincerely
00:56:48.060 they were being
00:56:50.060 every bit as spiritual
00:56:52.060 from their point of view
00:56:53.060 as the trance dancers
00:56:55.060 at the supernova festival
00:56:56.060 were being from theirs 0.99
00:56:58.060 they were equally devoted
00:56:59.060 to their highest values
00:57:01.060 equally uplifted
00:57:03.060 ecstatic
00:57:04.060 amazed at their good fortune
00:57:06.060 they wouldn't want to trade places
00:57:08.060 with anyone
00:57:09.060 let this image
00:57:11.060 land in your brain
00:57:13.060 they were shouting
00:57:15.060 Allahu Akbar
00:57:16.060 God is great
00:57:18.060 all day long
00:57:20.060 as they murdered
00:57:21.060 women and children
00:57:23.060 and these people
00:57:24.060 are now being celebrated
00:57:25.060 the world over
00:57:26.060 by those who understand
00:57:28.060 exactly what they did
00:57:30.060 yes
00:57:31.060 many of those college kids
00:57:32.060 at Harvard
00:57:33.060 and Stanford
00:57:34.060 and Cornell 1.00
00:57:35.060 are just idiots 1.00
00:57:36.060 who have a lot to learn 1.00
00:57:37.060 about the world
00:57:38.060 but in the Muslim community
00:57:40.060 and that includes
00:57:41.060 the crowds in London
00:57:43.060 and Sydney
00:57:44.060 and Brooklyn
00:57:45.060 Hamas is being celebrated 0.99
00:57:47.060 by people who understand
00:57:48.060 exactly what motivates them
00:57:51.060 again
00:57:52.060 watch Hotel Mumbai
00:57:54.060 or read a book about
00:57:55.060 the Islamic State
00:57:56.060 so that you can see
00:57:58.060 jihadism in another context
00:57:59.060 where literally not
00:58:01.060 one of the variables
00:58:02.060 that people imagine
00:58:03.060 to be important here
00:58:04.060 is present
00:58:05.060 there are no settlers
00:58:07.060 or blockades
00:58:08.060 or daily humiliations
00:58:10.060 at checkpoints
00:58:11.060 or different interpretations
00:58:12.060 of history
00:58:14.060 and yet we have
00:58:15.060 the same grotesque distortion
00:58:17.060 of the spiritual impulse
00:58:18.060 the same otherworldliness
00:58:20.060 framed by murder
00:58:22.060 the same absolute evil
00:58:25.060 that doesn't require
00:58:26.060 the presence of evil people
00:58:28.060 just confused ones
00:58:30.060 just true believers
00:58:33.060 of course we can do our best
00:58:35.060 to turn the temperature down
00:58:36.060 now
00:58:37.060 and we can trust
00:58:38.060 that the news cycle
00:58:39.060 will get captured
00:58:40.060 we can direct our attention
00:58:42.060 again to Russia
00:58:43.060 or China
00:58:44.060 or climate change
00:58:45.060 or AI alignment
00:58:47.060 and I will do that
00:58:48.060 on this podcast
00:58:49.060 but the problem
00:58:50.060 of jihadism
00:58:51.060 and the much wider problem
00:58:53.060 of sympathy for it
00:58:54.060 isn't going away
00:58:56.060 and civilized people 0.93
00:58:58.060 non-Muslim
00:58:59.060 and Muslim alike
00:59:00.060 have to deal with it
00:59:03.060 as I said in a previous podcast
00:59:05.060 on this topic
00:59:06.060 we all live in Israel now
00:59:08.060 it's just that most of us
00:59:10.060 haven't realized it yet
00:59:11.060 it's just that most of us
00:59:13.060 haven't realized it yet
00:59:15.060 Thank you.