Making Sense - Sam Harris - May 13, 2024


#367 — Campus Protests, Antisemitism, and Western Values


Episode Stats

Length

53 minutes

Words per Minute

151.39474

Word Count

8,103

Sentence Count

450

Misogynist Sentences

17

Hate Speech Sentences

115


Summary

Sam Harris explains why the anti-Semitism on campus is a bigger problem than most people realize, and why we should all be worried about it. He uses an analogy from China to illustrate the problem, and argues that the real problem is not the fact that students are anti-Semitic, but rather that they are part of a pro-Hamas "pro-Palestine" "protest" against the Israeli military's attack on Gaza, and that they should be expelled from their universities if they don't back down from their anti-Zionist anger at the Israeli attack on the city of Tel Aviv. And he points to Qatar as a major culprit, because Qatar has given tens of billions of dollars to Western universities, and is directly responsible for funding the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, which is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that is directly affiliated with the Islamic theology of the Fatah movement, the group that runs most of the world's largest terrorist organization, the Islamic Supreme Council of which is led by Qatar. And why the protests are happening in the first place because of the money Qatar has been giving Western universities and Western universities and why it's a good idea to get them involved in the conflict with Israel and its enemies even if they're not really fighting for peace, they're fighting for it. And he also points out that the protests aren't really about the peace process at all, they re fighting against Israel, they are fighting against it they re protesting against it . because they're against it, not against it. And that Israel it s the enemy . And why they don t care about peace why they should care about it at all at least they care about that except that Israel s enemies are not but about it? not because they care at all . and what it s doing it s a lot about it s Israel s rights or about the Palestinians what they want to do in the intifada What's the point of the protests how they should do about it ? is it really about peace, not about peace and justice who s ? and what s the point if they care? What are they really fighting about it, really isn t Israel s in Israel s Israel? or that s the problem?


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:23.420 This is Sam Harris.
00:00:26.240 Well, I suppose I should say something about the campus protests.
00:00:30.320 There's a lot of anger and confusion out there.
00:00:33.620 Just how much of a problem is this?
00:00:37.360 Well, there's no question that much of the chaos we see online is performative,
00:00:42.300 which is to say that it's being staged for the cameras.
00:00:45.580 That doesn't mean it's entirely insincere,
00:00:48.460 but it is interesting to consider whether the events themselves would have happened,
00:00:53.820 or would have happened at this scale,
00:00:55.600 and have this character, absent an ability to broadcast them on social media.
00:01:01.420 Of course, this concern relates to far more than what's happening on college campuses
00:01:04.780 in response to the war in Gaza.
00:01:06.920 The combination of a smartphone and social media
00:01:09.600 appears to be driving our species crazy.
00:01:12.900 We're all effectively walking around with a television studio in our pockets,
00:01:16.560 and the question is, what is this doing to us?
00:01:21.020 So this is just to say that when I see video of crowds of very smug and very hostile kids
00:01:26.640 at our finest universities effectively supporting Hamas,
00:01:31.380 I'm a little slow to conclude that this tells me everything I need to know about the scope of the problem.
00:01:36.860 As I've said before, the entire aftermath of October 7th has convinced me
00:01:41.560 that I've been almost totally asleep to the current reality of anti-Semitism.
00:01:45.540 So I think it is a far bigger problem than I realized.
00:01:48.820 But I still don't know how informative it is
00:01:51.020 to see a video of some imbecile at Columbia or Harvard
00:01:54.720 shouting for the Jews to go back to Poland.
00:01:58.660 What I can say is that the response of these universities
00:02:01.380 has been totally inadequate and hypocritical.
00:02:04.580 Their policies around protests have clearly been violated
00:02:08.180 and have been for months.
00:02:10.500 And as many people have pointed out,
00:02:11.820 it's the obvious double standard here that constitutes anti-Semitism.
00:02:16.300 I'm less worried about the specifics of each ugly incident
00:02:19.400 than I am about the fact that the administrations have been tolerating behavior
00:02:23.460 that they simply would not tolerate
00:02:25.740 had the objects of all this derision and abuse been anyone else.
00:02:29.680 If these colleges had any number of people
00:02:32.200 shouting that blacks should go back to Africa
00:02:35.040 or that trans people deserve to die,
00:02:38.520 these students, to say nothing of professors who said such things,
00:02:42.920 would be expelled.
00:02:44.700 And this is clearly what should happen to the most uncivil actors here.
00:02:48.520 All the kids who have been physically preventing Jewish students
00:02:51.160 from accessing buildings on campus,
00:02:53.480 threatening them with violence,
00:02:55.260 simply because they are Jewish,
00:02:56.780 these kids should be expelled without question.
00:03:01.920 Even if you concede that Israel is totally in the wrong,
00:03:06.240 this would not justify the behavior we've been seeing on campus.
00:03:10.420 Imagine that China was doing something awful
00:03:13.380 and worthy of protest,
00:03:15.440 which of course China often is.
00:03:17.820 It's put two million Uyghurs and Turkic Muslims
00:03:20.760 in concentration camps,
00:03:22.800 where they are reportedly subjected to torture
00:03:25.600 and sterilization and forced labor.
00:03:29.520 Where are the protests?
00:03:31.420 Apparently no one cares.
00:03:33.760 Not a peep out of Harvard,
00:03:35.540 or Stanford,
00:03:36.580 or Princeton,
00:03:37.500 or Yale.
00:03:38.800 But let's say all these activist students
00:03:40.900 started caring about China's abuse of their Muslim population
00:03:44.340 and were protesting that.
00:03:46.700 Imagine how the universities would respond
00:03:48.940 if these protesters started targeting
00:03:51.280 other students on campus
00:03:52.980 just because they happened to be Chinese,
00:03:55.920 as though ethnically Chinese Americans
00:03:58.180 or even Chinese nationals at Harvard
00:04:01.640 could be culpable
00:04:02.980 for what the Chinese government was now doing.
00:04:06.240 Imagine them not letting Chinese students
00:04:08.900 access buildings.
00:04:10.840 This would be immediately recognized
00:04:12.940 to be morally insane
00:04:14.600 and at odds with every core value of a university.
00:04:17.680 And there would be zero tolerance for it.
00:04:20.760 But the analogy actually understates
00:04:23.140 the perversity of what's been happening.
00:04:25.240 Because many of these students
00:04:26.400 are not merely protesting
00:04:28.200 injustice and cruelty
00:04:30.120 and innocent death
00:04:31.600 and just happen to be harassing the wrong people.
00:04:34.440 Rather,
00:04:35.080 many of them are supporting
00:04:36.560 injustice and cruelty
00:04:38.460 and innocent death
00:04:40.020 explicitly.
00:04:42.180 Globalize the Intifada
00:04:43.640 isn't a call for peace.
00:04:45.920 It's a call for the indiscriminate
00:04:47.760 murder of Jews.
00:04:49.800 I mean,
00:04:50.020 I'm willing to cut college kids
00:04:51.420 a fair amount of slack,
00:04:53.000 but you mean to tell me
00:04:54.000 that students at Harvard
00:04:55.340 and Princeton
00:04:56.420 and Stanford
00:04:57.520 don't know that
00:04:58.520 Palestinian Intifadas
00:04:59.800 entail a fair amount
00:05:00.840 of suicidal terrorism
00:05:02.060 and the deliberate murder
00:05:03.460 of non-combatants?
00:05:05.040 The deliberate murder
00:05:06.420 of non-combatants.
00:05:08.140 I might have been confused
00:05:09.360 about a few things
00:05:10.140 when I was 19,
00:05:10.840 but I was never that confused.
00:05:13.740 How did these kids
00:05:14.760 get so turned around?
00:05:16.860 Well,
00:05:17.580 there are many reasons,
00:05:19.080 but here's one.
00:05:20.840 Qatar,
00:05:21.780 the petrostate,
00:05:23.200 has given tens of billions
00:05:24.660 of dollars
00:05:25.220 to U.S.,
00:05:26.560 Canadian,
00:05:27.100 and British universities.
00:05:29.060 Qatar has given more money
00:05:30.380 to Western universities
00:05:31.480 than any other country
00:05:33.480 on Earth.
00:05:34.560 The regime
00:05:35.380 that controls Qatar
00:05:36.580 is directly governed
00:05:38.020 by the theology
00:05:38.840 of the Muslim Brotherhood,
00:05:39.900 of which Hamas
00:05:41.000 is an offshoot.
00:05:42.600 Where Jews are concerned,
00:05:44.240 the Muslim Brotherhood
00:05:45.000 is a fusion
00:05:45.720 of Islamism
00:05:46.600 and Nazism,
00:05:47.960 and actually
00:05:48.520 genocidal in intent.
00:05:51.140 Through another radical group,
00:05:52.460 American Muslims for Palestine,
00:05:54.620 the Muslim Brotherhood
00:05:55.560 funds the student group
00:05:56.880 that has been
00:05:57.260 one of the primary organizers
00:05:58.600 of these protests,
00:06:00.120 Students for Justice
00:06:01.020 in Palestine.
00:06:02.400 They also fund
00:06:03.000 a group of very confused Jews
00:06:04.900 at these protests,
00:06:06.440 Jewish Voices for Peace.
00:06:07.640 This money trail
00:06:09.400 was exposed
00:06:10.020 by Charles Asher's Small
00:06:11.460 at the Institute
00:06:12.380 for the Study
00:06:12.920 of Global Antisemitism
00:06:14.020 and Policy.
00:06:15.580 Qatar also owns
00:06:16.460 major soccer teams
00:06:17.560 in Europe,
00:06:18.660 and Al Jazeera,
00:06:19.840 the so-called
00:06:20.380 news organization,
00:06:21.960 which has the same
00:06:22.660 journalistic integrity
00:06:23.680 as Russia today.
00:06:25.400 It's just a fountain
00:06:26.460 of Islamist lies.
00:06:29.020 All of this amounts
00:06:29.700 to a psyop
00:06:30.680 on the West,
00:06:31.860 and on Western education
00:06:32.940 in particular.
00:06:33.580 For decades,
00:06:36.000 we have had
00:06:36.420 Middle Eastern studies
00:06:37.460 departments funded
00:06:38.760 by Islamist theocrats
00:06:40.620 and anti-Semites.
00:06:42.700 Why have we tolerated
00:06:43.860 this malicious exercise
00:06:45.420 of soft power?
00:06:47.500 Seems that money and oil
00:06:48.620 are still just irresistible.
00:06:51.860 Students for Justice
00:06:52.680 in Palestine
00:06:53.480 wrote the following
00:06:54.780 in response to the atrocities
00:06:56.160 of October 7th.
00:06:56.580 National liberation
00:06:58.940 is near.
00:06:59.960 Glory to our resistance,
00:07:01.440 to our martyrs,
00:07:02.620 to our steadfast people.
00:07:04.380 Resistance comes
00:07:05.020 in all forms,
00:07:05.940 armed struggle,
00:07:07.060 general strikes,
00:07:07.960 and popular demonstrations.
00:07:09.760 All of it is legitimate,
00:07:11.000 and all of it is necessary.
00:07:13.320 This was their
00:07:13.940 immediate response
00:07:15.100 in support of
00:07:16.280 the intentional massacre
00:07:17.560 of families
00:07:18.420 and the taking
00:07:19.580 of children
00:07:20.360 as hostages
00:07:21.540 before Israel
00:07:23.560 did anything
00:07:24.300 in response.
00:07:24.920 That's the moral vision
00:07:27.120 that inspired
00:07:28.280 these campus protests.
00:07:30.680 However,
00:07:31.160 direct funding
00:07:31.940 by Islamist theocrats
00:07:33.400 is only one strand
00:07:34.520 of influence,
00:07:35.640 as I'll discuss.
00:07:37.200 There's also
00:07:37.920 the identitarian
00:07:38.760 moral panic
00:07:39.620 that has diluted
00:07:40.480 the left for years,
00:07:42.020 which I've covered
00:07:42.540 a lot on this podcast,
00:07:44.280 which maps
00:07:45.100 every conflict
00:07:45.920 in the world
00:07:46.480 to an oppressor-oppressed
00:07:47.940 narrative.
00:07:49.340 Again,
00:07:49.940 I don't want to exaggerate
00:07:50.760 the scope
00:07:51.300 of the problem,
00:07:52.680 but it is pretty appalling
00:07:53.980 that the largest
00:07:55.220 student protest movement
00:07:56.540 since the 1960s
00:07:58.040 has distinguished itself
00:07:59.900 by being this confused
00:08:01.760 about what is really
00:08:02.800 going on in the world
00:08:03.640 and is lending support
00:08:05.580 to groups like Hamas
00:08:06.900 that represent
00:08:07.800 the annihilation
00:08:08.760 of everything
00:08:09.520 these students
00:08:10.460 should value.
00:08:12.300 And the next time
00:08:13.380 I see a job applicant
00:08:14.520 from what used to be
00:08:15.980 a great university,
00:08:17.560 Harvard,
00:08:18.380 Princeton,
00:08:19.060 Yale,
00:08:19.820 or even my own
00:08:20.580 alma maters,
00:08:21.720 Stanford and UCLA,
00:08:22.720 which have been terrible.
00:08:24.760 My first thought,
00:08:26.460 literally my first thought,
00:08:28.980 will be,
00:08:29.500 were you one of these
00:08:30.340 imbeciles
00:08:31.020 who couldn't figure out
00:08:32.220 who the bad guys
00:08:33.160 were on October 7th?
00:08:35.100 Really,
00:08:35.700 the brand damage
00:08:36.620 to these institutions
00:08:37.720 has been extraordinary.
00:08:40.760 We now know
00:08:41.500 that hundreds of professors
00:08:42.840 at these schools
00:08:43.960 support Hamas,
00:08:46.160 which again,
00:08:47.560 is a genocidal
00:08:48.920 death cult.
00:08:50.180 That's not my opinion.
00:08:51.080 That is how Hamas
00:08:52.700 describes itself.
00:08:55.100 They want to kill
00:08:55.820 all the Jews on earth
00:08:57.340 and to die as martyrs.
00:08:59.100 That is the recipe
00:09:00.020 for being an anti-Semitic,
00:09:02.420 genocidal,
00:09:03.400 death cult.
00:09:04.840 Any professor
00:09:05.740 who supports Hamas
00:09:07.580 should be fired,
00:09:09.680 as you would fire
00:09:10.500 any professor
00:09:11.360 who openly supported
00:09:12.680 the Nazis
00:09:13.340 in the immediate aftermath
00:09:15.100 of a Nazi atrocity.
00:09:17.000 This is not a
00:09:18.020 First Amendment issue.
00:09:18.980 No one has a
00:09:20.400 constitutional right
00:09:21.660 to be at Harvard
00:09:23.040 in any capacity.
00:09:25.440 And I can say
00:09:26.320 with confidence
00:09:27.040 that the first
00:09:28.360 good schools
00:09:29.060 to accomplish
00:09:29.680 a hard reset here,
00:09:31.600 admitting that
00:09:32.160 they've lost their way,
00:09:33.720 purging the DEI
00:09:34.820 bureaucracy
00:09:35.440 and theocracy
00:09:36.320 that they've built
00:09:37.040 over decades,
00:09:38.380 where the best
00:09:38.960 of intentions
00:09:39.580 grew malignant
00:09:40.560 and metastasized,
00:09:42.360 the first universities
00:09:43.940 to fully reboot
00:09:45.620 a commitment
00:09:46.220 to enlightenment
00:09:46.920 and values.
00:09:48.220 No more money
00:09:48.920 from Qatar,
00:09:50.100 you idiots.
00:09:51.320 No more stealth
00:09:52.280 Islamism
00:09:53.020 in your departments
00:09:53.740 of Middle Eastern studies.
00:09:55.680 No more reverse racism
00:09:57.300 against Asian
00:09:58.640 and white applicants.
00:10:00.440 No more
00:10:00.880 identitarian
00:10:01.820 victim culture.
00:10:03.800 No more
00:10:04.220 dousing
00:10:04.780 for racists.
00:10:06.660 No more
00:10:07.120 whinging
00:10:07.480 about Halloween costumes.
00:10:09.740 No more
00:10:10.200 intersectional
00:10:11.200 arsonists
00:10:11.940 pretending
00:10:12.560 to put out fires
00:10:13.560 that they started.
00:10:14.520 just great books
00:10:16.460 and great teachers
00:10:17.600 and real research
00:10:18.960 and no more
00:10:20.300 fucking apologies.
00:10:22.160 The first
00:10:22.680 elite schools
00:10:23.420 to do that
00:10:24.280 will win
00:10:25.180 so much support
00:10:26.500 and goodwill
00:10:27.360 and an avalanche
00:10:29.280 of applications
00:10:30.160 and donors.
00:10:31.480 They'll solidify
00:10:32.520 their reputations
00:10:33.360 into the next century.
00:10:35.480 I wouldn't even know
00:10:36.820 where I would want
00:10:37.340 to send my daughters
00:10:38.360 to college
00:10:39.000 at this point.
00:10:40.460 Happily,
00:10:40.900 we don't have to think
00:10:41.400 about this
00:10:41.760 for a couple of years.
00:10:42.440 but all the best schools
00:10:44.740 and even the second
00:10:46.160 and third best schools
00:10:47.520 appear to be in the process
00:10:48.880 of destroying themselves.
00:10:50.980 Again,
00:10:51.380 I realize
00:10:51.800 it's a minority
00:10:52.540 of students
00:10:53.260 protesting
00:10:53.980 on even the most
00:10:54.760 beleaguered campuses
00:10:55.940 but it's the response
00:10:57.660 of the institutions
00:10:58.540 themselves
00:10:59.280 that has been
00:11:00.200 so reprehensible.
00:11:02.060 Now as a result
00:11:02.640 of all this
00:11:03.320 there is a widespread
00:11:04.600 sense in the Jewish
00:11:05.580 community
00:11:06.020 that more must be done
00:11:07.440 to combat
00:11:07.940 anti-Semitism.
00:11:09.380 There's even a bill
00:11:10.160 that has just passed
00:11:10.900 the House of Representatives.
00:11:12.440 The Anti-Semitism Awareness Act
00:11:14.160 which would make it easier
00:11:15.580 for Jews
00:11:16.100 to make civil rights complaints.
00:11:18.320 Now unfortunately
00:11:18.760 this bill
00:11:19.260 seems to conflate
00:11:20.080 certain criticisms
00:11:20.840 of Israel
00:11:21.460 with anti-Semitism.
00:11:23.720 I'll grant that
00:11:24.480 most people
00:11:24.900 who claim to be
00:11:25.560 anti-Zionist
00:11:26.360 at this point
00:11:26.920 are probably
00:11:27.700 also anti-Semitic.
00:11:29.280 This is pretty obvious
00:11:30.040 from what they are saying
00:11:30.840 and what they are not saying.
00:11:32.580 It used to be the case
00:11:33.420 that you could be
00:11:33.880 anti-Zionist
00:11:34.700 without being anti-Semitic.
00:11:36.260 My friend
00:11:36.660 Christopher Hitchens
00:11:37.420 certainly was that.
00:11:38.920 And I was sort of that
00:11:39.900 at one point.
00:11:40.580 But I'm not sure
00:11:41.660 it's a position
00:11:42.100 one can truly
00:11:42.900 occupy now.
00:11:45.260 October 7th
00:11:46.080 changed my thinking
00:11:46.940 on this.
00:11:48.120 I remain uncomfortable
00:11:49.040 with the concept
00:11:49.980 of any sort of
00:11:50.800 religious ethno-state.
00:11:52.560 But given the
00:11:53.420 murderous anti-Semitism
00:11:54.600 of so much of the world,
00:11:56.340 given that almost
00:11:56.860 every country
00:11:57.560 that has had
00:11:58.220 a population of Jews
00:11:59.560 has at some point
00:12:00.540 actively persecuted them
00:12:02.080 and driven them out,
00:12:03.900 literally almost
00:12:04.460 any country
00:12:05.200 you can name
00:12:05.920 in Europe
00:12:06.780 or North Africa
00:12:08.220 or the Middle East
00:12:09.480 has done this
00:12:10.860 at some point.
00:12:12.260 Given the tolerance
00:12:13.160 of this reality
00:12:14.400 by billions of onlookers,
00:12:16.940 well then the Jews
00:12:17.580 clearly need a state
00:12:18.620 of their own
00:12:19.140 and it should defend itself
00:12:20.620 without apology.
00:12:22.000 We have the two
00:12:22.820 largest religions
00:12:23.820 on earth,
00:12:25.120 Christianity and Islam,
00:12:26.840 which encompass
00:12:27.460 half of humanity,
00:12:28.960 whose theology
00:12:29.820 has reviled
00:12:30.920 the Jews
00:12:31.780 as eternal enemies
00:12:33.260 for thousands of years.
00:12:34.820 If half the world
00:12:36.420 hated the Yazidis
00:12:37.420 like this,
00:12:38.500 and if much of what
00:12:39.160 the world believed
00:12:39.980 about them
00:12:40.560 amounted to a deranged
00:12:41.720 conspiracy theory,
00:12:43.160 I would say that
00:12:43.760 the Yazidis
00:12:44.260 needed their own state too.
00:12:46.600 I'll be happy
00:12:47.080 to revisit this issue
00:12:48.060 in a hundred years
00:12:48.840 when we've made
00:12:49.640 some moral progress,
00:12:50.980 but until then,
00:12:52.300 count me a committed
00:12:53.180 Zionist.
00:12:55.180 However,
00:12:55.720 I think talking
00:12:56.380 about Zionism
00:12:57.460 is totally
00:12:58.800 counterproductive.
00:13:00.340 We should talk
00:13:00.780 about Israel's right
00:13:01.920 as the lone democracy
00:13:03.660 in the Middle East
00:13:04.520 to defend itself.
00:13:07.040 I also think
00:13:07.480 that focusing
00:13:07.980 on anti-Semitism
00:13:08.860 at this moment,
00:13:10.260 as much as it
00:13:10.820 really is a problem,
00:13:12.300 is the wrong approach
00:13:13.260 to addressing
00:13:13.780 a much more
00:13:14.280 fundamental problem,
00:13:15.700 which is the hatred
00:13:16.500 of Western civilization
00:13:17.620 coming from so many
00:13:18.900 of its own inhabitants
00:13:19.860 and beneficiaries,
00:13:21.600 and the very real clash
00:13:22.880 between the West,
00:13:24.080 which includes Israel
00:13:25.080 and every other
00:13:25.620 civilized democracy,
00:13:27.420 and Islam,
00:13:28.740 in particular
00:13:29.340 Islamism and Jihadism.
00:13:31.380 Depending on the context,
00:13:32.620 we can call it
00:13:33.180 radical Islam
00:13:34.060 or Islamic extremism
00:13:35.680 or Islamofascism.
00:13:38.360 Call it whatever you want,
00:13:40.080 but what you can't do,
00:13:41.580 honestly,
00:13:42.580 is say that this species
00:13:43.740 of belligerent lunacy
00:13:45.140 has no connection
00:13:46.360 to the mainstream
00:13:47.040 religion of Islam.
00:13:49.080 Why do I think
00:13:49.600 that a narrow focus
00:13:50.520 on anti-Semitism
00:13:51.300 is mistaken?
00:13:52.640 Well,
00:13:53.000 there are many people
00:13:53.800 on college campuses now
00:13:55.200 who support Hamas,
00:13:57.000 which seems as anti-Semitic
00:13:58.320 on its face
00:13:58.940 as supporting the Nazis.
00:14:00.780 However,
00:14:01.020 I think that hating Jews
00:14:02.260 is not really
00:14:03.020 what many of these people
00:14:04.000 are about.
00:14:05.420 As I said,
00:14:05.900 some of them are Jewish,
00:14:07.200 so what explains
00:14:07.920 their behavior?
00:14:09.000 Well,
00:14:09.220 they hate the West,
00:14:10.700 or think they do.
00:14:12.180 They hate Western power.
00:14:14.280 In the American context,
00:14:15.480 they hate whiteness,
00:14:16.840 perhaps above all,
00:14:18.100 and they think
00:14:18.520 that the sin of racism
00:14:19.840 subsumes everything.
00:14:21.820 In the conflict
00:14:22.600 between Israel
00:14:23.180 and the Palestinians,
00:14:24.380 they consider the Jews
00:14:25.500 white and the Palestinians
00:14:26.760 black.
00:14:28.080 Is this utterly moronic?
00:14:29.980 Yes,
00:14:30.480 it is.
00:14:31.520 At least half the Jews
00:14:32.680 in Israel
00:14:33.200 are Middle Eastern
00:14:34.460 or North African
00:14:35.460 in descent.
00:14:36.940 The only black people
00:14:37.920 you'll find there
00:14:38.560 are Ethiopian Jews,
00:14:40.300 some of whom
00:14:40.800 are fighting for the IDF.
00:14:42.900 So,
00:14:43.220 kids,
00:14:43.860 all your concern
00:14:44.740 about white privilege
00:14:45.820 as you bounce
00:14:46.940 between lacrosse practice
00:14:48.320 and Starbucks
00:14:49.180 is misapplied here.
00:14:52.060 Should you be kicked
00:14:52.620 out of Yale
00:14:53.220 for being this stupid?
00:14:54.880 Probably.
00:14:56.160 But your stupidity
00:14:57.240 is not quite the same
00:14:58.420 as anti-Semitism.
00:14:59.980 Yes,
00:15:00.700 anti-Semitism
00:15:01.260 cuts across this landscape
00:15:02.880 in ways that are
00:15:04.000 very depressing,
00:15:05.260 and I'm not seeking
00:15:06.040 to minimize it.
00:15:07.380 For instance,
00:15:07.900 as you move rightward
00:15:09.120 along the political spectrum,
00:15:10.940 you meet more and more people
00:15:12.080 who effortlessly recognize
00:15:13.600 the derangement of the left
00:15:14.980 and the sickening apologies
00:15:16.940 for Islamic fanaticism
00:15:18.520 that come from people
00:15:19.640 who imagine that
00:15:20.520 Harvey Weinstein
00:15:21.420 is the worst person
00:15:22.380 who ever lived.
00:15:23.420 Whereas there are whole societies
00:15:25.020 in the Muslim world
00:15:26.140 where a person like Weinstein
00:15:27.720 would be considered
00:15:28.480 unusually well-adjusted
00:15:30.060 in his attitude
00:15:30.960 towards women.
00:15:32.540 The left is still
00:15:33.300 full of the sorts of people
00:15:34.500 who blamed Salman Rushdie
00:15:35.940 for the fatwa
00:15:36.720 that forced him
00:15:37.700 into hiding
00:15:38.240 for a decade
00:15:38.960 and which finally
00:15:39.940 got him nearly killed
00:15:41.140 on stage in New York
00:15:42.420 after 33 years
00:15:43.880 of looking over his shoulder.
00:15:45.720 These are the same people
00:15:46.880 who blame
00:15:47.320 the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists
00:15:49.000 for having had the gall
00:15:50.320 to get themselves
00:15:51.080 murdered in Paris.
00:15:52.360 These imbeciles on the left
00:15:54.720 range from current darlings
00:15:56.540 of alternative media
00:15:57.660 like Glenn Greenwald
00:15:59.120 to members of elite institutions
00:16:01.320 whose very purpose
00:16:02.360 is to defend
00:16:03.380 freedom of speech
00:16:04.400 like the Pan America Foundation.
00:16:06.920 As you move rightward
00:16:08.520 in our politics
00:16:09.460 you meet more and more people
00:16:11.180 who easily see
00:16:12.640 the insanity of all this.
00:16:14.960 Words are violence
00:16:16.180 but clitorectomies
00:16:17.720 and suicide bombing
00:16:18.820 is somehow indigenous wisdom
00:16:20.240 and the voice of the oppressed.
00:16:22.360 But then of course
00:16:23.420 as you move further rightward
00:16:25.060 you meet more and more people
00:16:26.880 who hate Jews
00:16:27.940 as scheming globalists
00:16:30.080 who want Americans
00:16:31.040 to fight in foreign wars
00:16:32.560 perhaps today
00:16:33.880 in defense of Israel
00:16:34.740 or Ukraine
00:16:35.840 which happens to be run
00:16:37.320 by a Jew.
00:16:38.580 This allegation
00:16:39.240 goes all the way back
00:16:39.960 to World War I
00:16:40.740 and World War II.
00:16:42.340 Both world wars
00:16:43.440 were instigated by Jews
00:16:45.080 don't you know?
00:16:46.360 This is Tucker Carlson's audience
00:16:47.960 the Great Replacement cult.
00:16:50.520 When things recently
00:16:51.300 went sideways
00:16:51.980 over the Daily Wire
00:16:53.100 these are the geniuses
00:16:54.540 who followed the crackpot
00:16:55.720 Candace Owens
00:16:56.600 into the abyss
00:16:57.500 and finally got a chance
00:16:58.860 to tell Ben Shapiro
00:16:59.880 what they really think of him
00:17:01.160 and his fellow Jews.
00:17:03.100 But of course
00:17:03.860 if you land on just
00:17:04.840 the right spot
00:17:05.700 on the right
00:17:06.600 among old school
00:17:08.100 evangelical Christians
00:17:09.320 then you can find people
00:17:11.320 who can generally
00:17:12.240 be counted upon
00:17:13.140 to worry about
00:17:14.220 the fate of the Jews
00:17:15.320 and who will defend Israel
00:17:16.920 which is a relief
00:17:18.160 frankly.
00:17:18.760 but their support
00:17:20.040 comes with a strange twist
00:17:21.540 because they expect
00:17:22.680 that when the temple
00:17:23.360 is finally rebuilt
00:17:24.380 in Jerusalem
00:17:25.000 and Jesus returns
00:17:26.600 let's just say
00:17:27.540 he won't be in a mood
00:17:28.320 to debate the finer points
00:17:29.560 of theology
00:17:30.120 with the Jews.
00:17:31.560 So evangelicals
00:17:32.460 are philo-semitic
00:17:33.680 only up to a point.
00:17:35.880 So I don't mean
00:17:36.680 to downplay
00:17:37.320 the reality
00:17:37.920 of anti-semitism.
00:17:39.540 A vastly disproportionate
00:17:41.140 amount of hate crime
00:17:42.020 in the U.S.
00:17:42.640 is committed
00:17:43.040 against Jews.
00:17:44.260 It's not against blacks
00:17:45.260 and it's certainly
00:17:46.260 not against Muslims
00:17:47.260 despite what the
00:17:48.380 Islamist front group
00:17:49.440 the Council on
00:17:50.060 American-Islamic Relations
00:17:51.300 would have you believe.
00:17:52.580 In fact,
00:17:52.940 a lot of this crime
00:17:53.720 comes from blacks
00:17:54.620 and Muslims themselves
00:17:55.740 who just happen to do
00:17:57.220 more than their fair share
00:17:58.320 of hating Jews.
00:17:59.940 Jews are about 2%
00:18:00.900 of the population
00:18:01.640 and they've always received
00:18:03.120 around 50%
00:18:04.020 of the hate crime.
00:18:05.480 Even after 9-11
00:18:06.620 they received
00:18:07.700 far more hate
00:18:08.740 than Muslims did
00:18:09.840 in America.
00:18:11.220 Since October 7th
00:18:12.460 the number of incidents
00:18:13.480 has soared
00:18:14.200 and this is in response
00:18:15.800 to the worst atrocity
00:18:17.040 perpetrated against Jews
00:18:18.360 since the Holocaust.
00:18:20.560 So if you're Jewish
00:18:21.660 or even if you're not
00:18:22.900 and you think
00:18:23.640 all of this
00:18:24.100 is seriously alarming
00:18:25.060 I think you're right
00:18:26.500 and I'm sure
00:18:27.720 I will do
00:18:28.060 some future podcasts
00:18:29.240 and other work
00:18:29.880 on the problem
00:18:30.420 of anti-Semitism.
00:18:32.180 But I also think
00:18:32.800 that Jews
00:18:33.300 should not try
00:18:34.020 to compete
00:18:34.620 in the oppression Olympics
00:18:35.840 that have deranged
00:18:37.280 so much of Western culture.
00:18:39.420 The direction
00:18:39.940 of progress
00:18:40.620 is not to convince
00:18:42.440 the rest of America
00:18:43.440 that we Jews
00:18:44.860 have it worse
00:18:45.580 than blacks
00:18:46.200 and Muslims
00:18:46.780 or just as bad.
00:18:48.880 And I don't think
00:18:49.440 the UK
00:18:49.900 is going to sort itself out
00:18:51.440 by becoming
00:18:52.460 more focused
00:18:53.480 on its Jewish population
00:18:54.840 as a victim group.
00:18:57.280 We simply have
00:18:58.340 to get past
00:18:59.000 the politics
00:18:59.660 of identity
00:19:00.260 and we have
00:19:01.500 to defend
00:19:02.220 Western values.
00:19:03.900 We have to defend
00:19:05.160 not identities
00:19:06.580 but the ideas
00:19:08.320 that make freedom
00:19:09.380 and tolerance
00:19:10.140 possible.
00:19:10.700 We have to recognize
00:19:12.620 that there are
00:19:13.600 real threats
00:19:14.380 to freedom
00:19:14.880 and tolerance
00:19:15.480 in this world
00:19:16.100 and identity politics
00:19:17.880 is one of them.
00:19:19.440 Another happens
00:19:20.080 to be coming
00:19:20.460 from the fastest
00:19:21.140 spreading religion
00:19:22.000 on earth
00:19:22.480 which has some
00:19:23.440 two billion adherents.
00:19:25.440 Are all Muslims
00:19:26.220 a threat to freedom
00:19:27.080 and tolerance?
00:19:28.420 No.
00:19:29.380 But almost all of them
00:19:30.780 are doing a terrible
00:19:32.020 job of acknowledging
00:19:33.140 much less combating
00:19:34.780 the dangerous
00:19:35.940 fanaticism
00:19:36.840 that is seething
00:19:38.200 at the core
00:19:39.160 of their religion.
00:19:40.920 So I don't think
00:19:41.900 we need a new
00:19:42.680 Jewish media platform
00:19:43.980 to compete
00:19:44.940 with the malicious
00:19:45.600 fantasies
00:19:46.360 that pour forth
00:19:47.260 from Al Jazeera
00:19:48.100 as harmful
00:19:49.200 as those have been.
00:19:50.600 We need
00:19:51.140 the New York Times
00:19:52.320 and the BBC
00:19:53.140 to become morally sane
00:19:55.280 again.
00:19:56.640 I am not suggesting
00:19:57.700 that anti-Semitism
00:19:58.460 isn't a problem.
00:20:00.100 I'm suggesting
00:20:00.700 that a real defense
00:20:01.920 of Western values
00:20:03.180 would solve
00:20:03.920 that problem
00:20:04.520 among many others.
00:20:05.920 Nevertheless,
00:20:07.600 it is easy to see
00:20:08.660 why some of our kids
00:20:09.720 are confused
00:20:10.320 about Gaza.
00:20:11.880 They are being
00:20:12.380 inundated with
00:20:13.320 misinformation
00:20:13.820 about Israel,
00:20:15.120 that the Jews
00:20:15.800 are settler colonialists,
00:20:17.620 that they have built
00:20:18.240 an apartheid state,
00:20:19.660 that they are guilty
00:20:20.340 of genocide.
00:20:21.840 These lies
00:20:22.560 did not start
00:20:23.360 on October 8th.
00:20:24.540 They've been promulgated
00:20:25.540 for decades.
00:20:27.020 And it seems
00:20:27.440 that no matter
00:20:27.780 how patiently
00:20:28.580 one corrects them,
00:20:30.120 nothing changes.
00:20:31.600 And the photos
00:20:32.300 coming out of Gaza
00:20:33.160 certainly don't help.
00:20:34.760 As I've said before,
00:20:35.500 there is no
00:20:36.000 political analysis
00:20:37.060 or moral argument
00:20:38.780 that makes sense
00:20:40.160 of images
00:20:40.600 of dead children
00:20:41.580 being pulled
00:20:42.260 out of rubble.
00:20:43.900 It's also natural
00:20:45.180 for people to look
00:20:46.220 at the history
00:20:46.800 of the conflict
00:20:47.520 between the Israelis
00:20:48.400 and the Palestinians
00:20:49.160 and imagine
00:20:50.320 that there's some
00:20:50.900 moral parity
00:20:51.920 between the two sides.
00:20:54.140 In fact,
00:20:54.460 because Israel
00:20:54.920 has become more powerful,
00:20:56.680 most people imagine
00:20:57.480 that the responsibility
00:20:58.260 for the ongoing conflict
00:20:59.840 falls more on the Jews.
00:21:02.140 Israel is now perceived
00:21:03.100 to be a bully
00:21:03.820 with advanced weaponry.
00:21:05.500 And the Palestinians
00:21:06.660 are merely victims
00:21:07.840 throwing rocks.
00:21:09.820 Even in the aftermath
00:21:10.880 of October 7th,
00:21:12.180 when you had
00:21:12.880 an avowedly
00:21:13.640 genocidal organization
00:21:15.180 like Hamas
00:21:16.000 butchering non-combatants
00:21:17.920 and taking women
00:21:18.720 and children hostage
00:21:19.880 and firing rockets
00:21:21.600 by the thousands
00:21:22.640 purposely
00:21:23.680 into civilian areas,
00:21:25.700 we still have
00:21:26.440 vast numbers
00:21:27.240 of Westerners
00:21:28.100 and a majority
00:21:29.100 of our own youth,
00:21:30.360 apparently,
00:21:31.320 believing that Israel
00:21:32.320 is in the wrong
00:21:33.180 and that it effectively
00:21:34.420 has no right
00:21:35.100 to defend itself
00:21:35.920 or to even exist.
00:21:38.060 Leaving other variables aside,
00:21:39.920 like the identitarian
00:21:40.920 disgrace of wokeism,
00:21:43.360 the oppressor-oppressed
00:21:44.540 framing of everything
00:21:45.760 that has become standard
00:21:47.100 on the left,
00:21:48.340 as well as the frank
00:21:49.360 anti-Semitism
00:21:50.080 that we know is there,
00:21:51.920 what we are seeing
00:21:52.780 on our college campuses
00:21:53.900 is only possible
00:21:55.660 because people
00:21:56.660 don't understand
00:21:57.340 the threat
00:21:57.960 that Islamic extremism
00:21:59.440 poses
00:22:00.300 to open societies
00:22:01.800 everywhere.
00:22:03.100 Again,
00:22:03.720 what's happening
00:22:04.260 on our college campuses
00:22:05.280 is many things,
00:22:07.000 but the level
00:22:07.820 of moral confusion
00:22:08.760 required to support
00:22:10.180 Hamas
00:22:10.720 and to demonize
00:22:12.220 the people
00:22:12.640 who are fighting
00:22:13.420 Hamas
00:22:14.020 requires that one
00:22:15.440 not recognize
00:22:16.440 what Hamas is.
00:22:18.640 And in a way,
00:22:19.400 this is also
00:22:20.140 understandable.
00:22:21.680 It is natural
00:22:22.520 to imagine
00:22:23.180 that people everywhere
00:22:24.640 are more or less
00:22:25.380 the same
00:22:25.880 and that they basically
00:22:27.020 want the same things
00:22:28.140 in life.
00:22:28.660 it's easy to see
00:22:30.060 how one might think
00:22:31.040 that normal people
00:22:32.540 would never resort
00:22:33.880 to violence
00:22:34.600 of the sort we saw
00:22:35.620 from Hamas
00:22:36.240 on October 7th,
00:22:37.480 burning families
00:22:38.680 alive on purpose,
00:22:40.500 raping women
00:22:41.140 and cutting their breasts
00:22:42.380 off and then killing them,
00:22:44.220 and shrieking with joy
00:22:45.580 all the while.
00:22:47.300 Normal people
00:22:48.340 wouldn't do this,
00:22:50.320 couldn't do this,
00:22:52.120 unless they've been
00:22:52.840 subjected to some
00:22:53.860 unendurable misery
00:22:55.320 and injustice.
00:22:57.040 They must have been
00:22:58.120 driven insane
00:22:59.380 by their own trauma.
00:23:01.520 Let's leave aside
00:23:02.060 the people who claim
00:23:02.860 that those things
00:23:03.380 didn't happen
00:23:04.000 on October 7th.
00:23:05.480 Most people understand
00:23:06.620 what happened.
00:23:07.680 And yet,
00:23:08.000 given the assumption
00:23:08.560 that people everywhere
00:23:09.400 are more or less
00:23:10.000 the same,
00:23:11.040 the very extremity
00:23:12.380 of the violence
00:23:13.340 we saw on October 7th
00:23:15.340 seems to put
00:23:16.040 the moral onus
00:23:16.900 on its victims
00:23:17.840 somehow.
00:23:19.500 And this weird
00:23:20.260 distortion
00:23:20.880 of moral intuition
00:23:22.000 casts a shadow
00:23:23.380 over the whole history
00:23:24.700 of the Israeli-Palestinian
00:23:26.380 conflict.
00:23:26.920 the fact
00:23:28.320 that the Palestinians
00:23:29.180 could have produced
00:23:30.620 an endless supply
00:23:31.760 of suicide bombers
00:23:32.860 during the Second Intifada,
00:23:35.160 and that they would
00:23:35.660 target non-combatants,
00:23:37.680 even children,
00:23:39.140 with this barbarism,
00:23:40.520 that itself
00:23:41.640 was considered proof
00:23:43.100 that they'd been pushed
00:23:43.900 well beyond the brink
00:23:45.280 by the Israelis.
00:23:47.340 Otherwise,
00:23:47.900 normal human beings
00:23:48.920 would never behave
00:23:50.040 in so extraordinarily
00:23:51.760 destructive a way.
00:23:53.520 It is easy to see
00:23:54.980 how uninformed people
00:23:56.940 could make this assumption.
00:23:59.060 This is a very useful
00:23:59.820 point that the writer
00:24:00.600 Paul Berman made
00:24:01.580 20 years ago
00:24:02.340 in his book
00:24:03.300 Terror and Liberalism.
00:24:05.160 Similarly,
00:24:05.640 people assume
00:24:06.240 that groups like Hamas
00:24:07.580 or Al-Qaeda
00:24:08.300 or even the Islamic State
00:24:10.040 attack Western targets
00:24:11.580 for more or less
00:24:12.260 normal political reasons.
00:24:14.180 They think these movements
00:24:15.060 are anti-colonial
00:24:16.220 or straightforwardly
00:24:17.520 nationalistic.
00:24:18.740 And so they think
00:24:19.560 that the extremity
00:24:20.480 of their violence
00:24:21.340 is once again
00:24:22.380 at bottom
00:24:22.880 the fault
00:24:23.460 of Western powers.
00:24:25.260 The chickens
00:24:25.720 have finally
00:24:26.280 come home to roost.
00:24:28.180 While understandable,
00:24:29.800 these assumptions
00:24:30.440 have been obviously
00:24:31.480 wrong for decades,
00:24:33.220 for longer than
00:24:34.180 I've been alive,
00:24:35.160 even.
00:24:36.220 To believe any
00:24:36.980 of this now,
00:24:38.000 as almost every
00:24:38.720 secular person
00:24:39.460 does by default,
00:24:41.120 certainly as you move
00:24:41.800 left of center
00:24:42.560 politically,
00:24:43.880 is to be totally
00:24:44.900 deluded
00:24:45.460 by a masochistic fantasy.
00:24:48.260 And it's a dangerous
00:24:48.980 fantasy because
00:24:49.740 it's being consciously
00:24:50.660 weaponized against
00:24:52.140 not just Israel,
00:24:53.820 but against every
00:24:54.500 Western society.
00:24:56.520 Islamic extremists
00:24:57.680 know that most of us,
00:24:59.620 especially in our
00:25:00.380 elite institutions,
00:25:02.000 are simply drunk
00:25:03.240 on white guilt
00:25:04.660 and self-doubt.
00:25:06.720 They can see that
00:25:07.700 we live in a perpetual
00:25:08.540 circular firing squad
00:25:10.260 of sanctimony.
00:25:12.080 They know that
00:25:12.780 if they just use
00:25:13.920 the word racism,
00:25:15.720 even though it has
00:25:16.280 absolutely no application,
00:25:18.320 when we're talking
00:25:18.820 about the fastest
00:25:19.520 growing religion
00:25:20.320 in a hundred countries,
00:25:22.020 they know this word
00:25:23.120 settles all arguments
00:25:24.640 left of center,
00:25:26.220 no matter how idiotic
00:25:27.700 the person is
00:25:28.460 who wields it.
00:25:29.880 They know that
00:25:30.740 we are constantly
00:25:31.680 worried about
00:25:32.660 being the bad guys.
00:25:34.120 They know that
00:25:34.580 our kids find it
00:25:35.780 very easy to believe
00:25:36.800 that we are
00:25:37.560 and have always been
00:25:38.580 the bad guys.
00:25:40.100 And they have been
00:25:40.620 manipulating
00:25:41.260 Western society
00:25:42.460 for decades.
00:25:44.000 And they have been
00:25:44.860 aided by legions
00:25:45.940 of useful idiots
00:25:47.040 on the left.
00:25:47.920 And so there's
00:25:49.340 a pervasive
00:25:49.940 inability
00:25:50.620 and even
00:25:51.620 unwillingness
00:25:52.500 on the part
00:25:53.140 of journalists
00:25:53.760 and politicians
00:25:54.760 and scholars
00:25:55.900 to recognize
00:25:56.920 the degree
00:25:57.440 to which
00:25:57.760 sincere religious
00:25:58.900 belief
00:25:59.480 and identity
00:26:00.500 drive conflict
00:26:02.020 in the Muslim world
00:26:03.120 between rival sects
00:26:04.700 and between Muslims
00:26:05.660 and non-Muslims.
00:26:06.800 There is a fundamental
00:26:08.040 lack of understanding
00:26:09.280 about how Islam
00:26:10.620 differs from other
00:26:11.600 religions here.
00:26:12.520 In fact,
00:26:13.620 it's widely considered
00:26:14.440 a symptom of bigotry
00:26:15.520 to even say
00:26:16.580 that Islam
00:26:17.120 is different
00:26:17.660 from other religions
00:26:18.560 in any way
00:26:19.640 that matters.
00:26:20.880 There are over
00:26:21.700 50 Muslim-majority
00:26:22.900 countries.
00:26:24.120 None of them
00:26:24.720 are good places
00:26:25.640 to live
00:26:26.200 if you care
00:26:26.940 about human freedom.
00:26:28.460 This is very unlikely
00:26:29.560 to be an accident.
00:26:31.660 Who would imagine
00:26:32.520 that killing people
00:26:33.880 for blasphemy
00:26:34.660 or apostasy
00:26:35.700 would have a chilling
00:26:36.920 effect on free thought?
00:26:38.860 Who would imagine
00:26:39.680 that the explicit denial
00:26:41.700 of political equality
00:26:43.180 for women
00:26:43.880 might have something
00:26:45.040 to do with its absence
00:26:46.360 throughout the Muslim world?
00:26:48.540 Even noticing
00:26:49.420 the connection here
00:26:50.440 between explicit
00:26:52.060 religious doctrines
00:26:53.220 and the unambiguous
00:26:54.580 abridgement
00:26:55.260 of human rights
00:26:56.100 is thought to be
00:26:57.200 a symptom of
00:26:57.840 quote,
00:26:58.340 Islamophobia.
00:27:00.080 So I want to make
00:27:00.960 a couple of basic
00:27:01.960 observations
00:27:02.880 about Islam
00:27:04.040 that have the virtue
00:27:05.200 of being important
00:27:06.020 and uncontroversial.
00:27:08.520 Or at least
00:27:08.880 they should be
00:27:09.340 uncontroversial
00:27:10.000 because they are
00:27:10.500 quite obviously
00:27:11.460 true.
00:27:12.900 And if you think
00:27:13.420 I've said all this
00:27:13.980 before and it
00:27:15.160 bores you,
00:27:16.620 well then just think
00:27:17.220 about how I feel.
00:27:18.780 I wouldn't touch
00:27:19.740 this topic ever again
00:27:21.280 if I thought
00:27:22.500 other people
00:27:23.140 were doing
00:27:23.580 an adequate job
00:27:24.380 of it.
00:27:25.480 There's a spell
00:27:26.500 that simply
00:27:27.140 has to be broken
00:27:28.260 here because
00:27:29.380 it threatens
00:27:29.920 to ruin everything.
00:27:31.960 And if you don't
00:27:32.520 see it,
00:27:33.540 as many don't,
00:27:35.040 you are just
00:27:36.000 blind.
00:27:36.980 From the point
00:27:39.600 of view of Islam,
00:27:40.840 our world is
00:27:41.620 divided into
00:27:42.320 two realms,
00:27:43.700 the realm of
00:27:44.260 belief
00:27:44.680 and the realm
00:27:45.800 of unbelief.
00:27:47.260 This is something
00:27:48.160 that Islam shares
00:27:49.160 with Christianity,
00:27:50.320 of course,
00:27:51.140 but the similarities
00:27:52.180 pretty much end
00:27:53.120 there.
00:27:54.560 There is no
00:27:55.120 render unto Caesar
00:27:56.280 those things
00:27:56.880 that are Caesar's
00:27:57.740 in Islam.
00:27:59.320 Rather,
00:27:59.960 Islam is meant
00:28:00.640 to totally subsume
00:28:01.840 a person's life
00:28:02.800 and the governance
00:28:03.980 of society.
00:28:05.520 It is intrinsically
00:28:07.140 political.
00:28:08.900 Therefore,
00:28:09.220 the modern distinction
00:28:10.200 upon which so many
00:28:11.540 of us have placed
00:28:12.220 our hopes
00:28:12.820 between Islam
00:28:14.140 and Islamism,
00:28:15.580 which is the explicit
00:28:16.380 intrusion of the religion
00:28:17.580 into politics,
00:28:19.100 is just that,
00:28:20.400 a modern distinction.
00:28:22.300 It is one that we hope
00:28:23.740 can be made true
00:28:24.900 and effective,
00:28:25.960 and we hope
00:28:26.800 that the latter
00:28:27.360 orientation,
00:28:28.520 that of 20th century
00:28:29.760 aggressively resurgent
00:28:31.320 political Islam,
00:28:32.400 can be resisted
00:28:33.980 and ultimately
00:28:34.800 extinguished
00:28:35.580 in modern societies.
00:28:37.460 But this secular
00:28:38.200 distinction has
00:28:38.980 little traditional
00:28:39.820 justification,
00:28:40.980 if any.
00:28:41.940 This is where
00:28:42.400 the differences
00:28:42.860 between Islam
00:28:43.800 and Christianity
00:28:44.600 become highly relevant
00:28:45.820 and ominous.
00:28:48.020 Take a moment
00:28:48.720 to consider this
00:28:49.640 as though
00:28:50.400 for the first time.
00:28:52.340 Muhammad
00:28:52.920 wasn't
00:28:53.900 the Muslim Jesus.
00:28:56.160 It's important
00:28:56.700 to notice
00:28:57.140 that the man
00:28:57.780 was not crucified.
00:29:00.060 He was a statesman
00:29:01.160 and a warlord,
00:29:02.400 he fought in
00:29:03.860 dozens of battles
00:29:04.860 and was victorious.
00:29:07.420 And in Islam,
00:29:08.900 Muhammad is the very
00:29:09.860 model of the ideal man.
00:29:12.740 I mean,
00:29:12.900 just imagine
00:29:13.520 how Christianity
00:29:14.560 might be different
00:29:15.760 if Jesus routinely
00:29:17.540 had his enemies
00:29:18.520 killed
00:29:19.020 and their wives
00:29:20.160 taken as sex slaves.
00:29:22.140 You think it might
00:29:23.120 just be a little
00:29:23.780 different?
00:29:25.200 Do you think
00:29:26.080 Christianity
00:29:26.640 might be just
00:29:27.640 a little different
00:29:28.600 if Jesus
00:29:29.800 had been less
00:29:30.620 like a hippie
00:29:31.480 with a steady
00:29:32.200 supply of MDMA
00:29:33.440 and more like
00:29:34.600 Tony Soprano?
00:29:36.420 The first Muslims
00:29:37.800 didn't spend
00:29:38.680 centuries,
00:29:39.640 as the early
00:29:40.120 Christians did,
00:29:41.280 as outsiders
00:29:42.120 being oppressed
00:29:42.980 by their
00:29:43.400 unbelieving masters.
00:29:45.120 They tasted
00:29:45.660 political power
00:29:46.480 from the very beginning.
00:29:48.060 The first Muslims
00:29:48.720 created an empire
00:29:49.700 more or less
00:29:50.300 immediately
00:29:50.840 after the death
00:29:51.900 of the prophet.
00:29:53.020 And then they just
00:29:53.960 crushed everyone
00:29:54.940 for 500 years.
00:29:57.640 Unlike Judaism,
00:29:59.160 Islam enjoins
00:30:00.060 its followers
00:30:00.640 to spread
00:30:01.460 their faith,
00:30:02.660 the one true
00:30:03.560 and completely
00:30:04.340 correct faith,
00:30:06.080 to the ends
00:30:06.480 of the earth.
00:30:07.700 Christianity
00:30:08.080 is also a relentlessly
00:30:09.440 missionary faith,
00:30:10.920 of course.
00:30:11.880 But from its inception,
00:30:13.580 it was a religion
00:30:14.260 of weakness.
00:30:15.740 Again,
00:30:16.560 Christ was crucified.
00:30:18.820 Blessed are the meek,
00:30:20.140 for they will
00:30:20.580 inherit the earth,
00:30:21.680 remember?
00:30:23.120 Islam,
00:30:23.720 from the first
00:30:24.980 moment,
00:30:25.820 was a religion
00:30:26.340 of power.
00:30:27.860 The idea
00:30:28.700 of non-Muslims
00:30:30.220 ruling over Muslims
00:30:32.080 or even having
00:30:33.220 equivalent power
00:30:34.280 alongside them
00:30:35.180 perpetually
00:30:35.820 has always
00:30:37.040 been anathema.
00:30:38.620 It's an error
00:30:39.400 to be rectified
00:30:40.580 through spiritual
00:30:41.720 struggle,
00:30:42.540 sure,
00:30:43.200 but also
00:30:43.880 through physical
00:30:44.540 violence.
00:30:46.160 The fact that
00:30:47.000 Islam has failed
00:30:48.460 to achieve
00:30:49.160 dominance
00:30:49.820 in our world
00:30:50.600 and has proven
00:30:51.620 for nearly
00:30:52.160 a thousand years
00:30:53.240 to be quite
00:30:54.400 backward
00:30:54.840 and weak
00:30:55.860 is a perennial
00:30:57.320 source of
00:30:57.980 humiliation.
00:30:59.540 By the light
00:31:00.040 of the doctrine,
00:31:01.380 it makes
00:31:01.900 absolutely no sense.
00:31:04.080 It is a sacrilege.
00:31:06.400 From the point
00:31:06.980 of view
00:31:07.400 of Islam,
00:31:08.800 the status quo
00:31:09.780 is intolerable.
00:31:12.020 And this
00:31:12.640 general attitude
00:31:13.620 of affronted
00:31:15.020 dignity,
00:31:16.320 this yearning
00:31:17.060 for victory,
00:31:18.300 which century
00:31:19.160 after century
00:31:20.040 has been
00:31:20.820 out of reach,
00:31:21.500 affects everything
00:31:22.940 that Islam
00:31:23.660 touches.
00:31:25.020 It's why
00:31:25.360 the history
00:31:25.880 of peace
00:31:26.320 negotiations
00:31:26.980 between Israel
00:31:28.080 and the
00:31:28.320 Palestinians
00:31:28.780 has been
00:31:29.340 so hopeless.
00:31:31.080 Have the Israelis
00:31:31.600 made mistakes?
00:31:32.900 Of course.
00:31:34.260 Do the Jews
00:31:34.900 have their own
00:31:35.520 religious fanatics?
00:31:37.100 Yes.
00:31:38.320 But the peace
00:31:38.940 process between
00:31:39.660 the Israelis
00:31:40.200 and the Palestinians
00:31:41.020 has been rendered
00:31:42.420 hopeless from the
00:31:43.600 start because
00:31:44.640 for a majority
00:31:45.360 of Palestinians
00:31:46.160 and for vast
00:31:47.600 numbers of Muslims
00:31:48.520 in the region,
00:31:49.700 the mere presence
00:31:50.560 of a Jewish state
00:31:51.600 in the Holy Land
00:31:52.460 is totally unacceptable.
00:31:55.180 It's a nakba,
00:31:56.620 a catastrophe.
00:31:58.200 It is a perversion
00:31:59.240 of a sacred history
00:32:00.440 and it is an abject
00:32:02.280 failure of the mission
00:32:03.680 of Islam,
00:32:05.060 which is to conquer
00:32:05.880 the world
00:32:06.480 for the glory of God
00:32:07.800 and above all
00:32:08.840 to never forsake
00:32:09.800 Muslim lands
00:32:10.600 once they have
00:32:11.360 been conquered,
00:32:12.480 which of course
00:32:13.000 Palestine once was.
00:32:14.840 As it is said
00:32:15.420 in the Quran,
00:32:16.040 kill them wherever
00:32:17.340 you find them
00:32:18.100 and drive them
00:32:19.140 from the places
00:32:19.800 from which they
00:32:20.440 drove you.
00:32:21.800 This is not
00:32:22.760 a religion of peace.
00:32:24.980 It is a religion
00:32:26.100 of conquest
00:32:27.200 and submission.
00:32:29.360 There's a lot
00:32:30.220 to criticize
00:32:30.760 in all religions
00:32:31.860 and I've certainly
00:32:32.980 done my fair share
00:32:34.020 of that.
00:32:35.100 But it is simply
00:32:36.300 a fact
00:32:37.080 that the doctrine
00:32:38.460 of holy war
00:32:39.260 and a love
00:32:40.220 of martyrdom
00:32:40.900 and an utter
00:32:42.040 intolerance
00:32:42.820 for blasphemy
00:32:43.720 and apostasy
00:32:44.720 are central
00:32:45.980 to Islam
00:32:46.700 in a way
00:32:47.600 that they are
00:32:47.960 not central
00:32:48.760 to other religions.
00:32:50.800 Of course,
00:32:51.380 not all Muslims
00:32:52.140 want to live this way
00:32:53.160 and that is wonderful.
00:32:55.440 That's why our world
00:32:56.440 isn't in total chaos.
00:32:58.500 But the problem
00:32:59.500 is that when you
00:33:00.100 look at the worst
00:33:00.980 examples
00:33:01.660 of jihadist barbarism
00:33:03.440 and atrocity,
00:33:05.200 the behavior
00:33:05.720 of Hamas
00:33:06.340 on October 7th
00:33:07.540 or the Islamic State
00:33:08.940 on every day
00:33:09.540 of the year,
00:33:10.520 it is very difficult
00:33:11.500 to say how these
00:33:12.480 people are getting
00:33:13.180 Islam wrong.
00:33:14.720 To be clear,
00:33:15.820 I am not saying
00:33:16.920 that there is
00:33:17.800 only one Islam
00:33:19.160 and that the extremists
00:33:20.740 have it right.
00:33:21.900 I'm saying that
00:33:22.480 they don't have it
00:33:23.620 obviously wrong.
00:33:25.760 Their version
00:33:26.420 of the faith
00:33:27.140 is all too plausible.
00:33:30.260 What did the worst
00:33:31.200 members of the
00:33:32.100 Islamic State do
00:33:33.220 that Muhammad
00:33:34.380 himself
00:33:35.080 didn't do
00:33:36.040 or wouldn't
00:33:36.840 have approved of?
00:33:37.960 That is a very
00:33:38.940 difficult question
00:33:39.720 to answer.
00:33:40.900 And the fact
00:33:41.720 that it is a difficult
00:33:42.720 question to answer
00:33:43.500 is increasingly
00:33:44.680 a problem
00:33:45.320 for the entire
00:33:46.380 world.
00:33:47.740 If you ask
00:33:48.180 the same question
00:33:49.120 about Jesus
00:33:49.740 or Buddha,
00:33:51.060 it's a very easy
00:33:52.060 question to answer.
00:33:53.600 What is Hamas
00:33:54.540 doing that Jesus
00:33:55.880 or Buddha
00:33:56.440 didn't do
00:33:57.160 or wouldn't
00:33:57.740 have approved
00:33:58.160 of?
00:33:59.400 Everything.
00:34:01.720 I recently
00:34:02.220 stumbled upon
00:34:02.820 an article
00:34:03.240 in the New York
00:34:03.700 Times from 15
00:34:04.860 years ago.
00:34:06.000 I doubt the Times
00:34:06.900 would publish
00:34:07.500 such an article
00:34:08.360 today.
00:34:09.540 It's very short
00:34:10.240 so I'm going to
00:34:10.580 read you the whole
00:34:11.160 thing.
00:34:12.340 The title is
00:34:13.320 Fighter Sees
00:34:14.940 His Paradise
00:34:15.720 in Gaza's Pain.
00:34:17.900 This was published
00:34:18.660 January 8, 2009.
00:34:22.300 The writer is
00:34:22.940 Tagrid El-Kodari.
00:34:26.120 Gaza City.
00:34:27.500 The emergency room
00:34:28.900 in Shifa Hospital
00:34:29.960 is often a place
00:34:31.220 of gore and despair.
00:34:33.220 On Thursday,
00:34:34.140 it was a lesson
00:34:34.720 in the way
00:34:35.100 ordinary people
00:34:35.760 are squeezed
00:34:36.460 between suicidal
00:34:37.480 fighters and a
00:34:38.740 military behemoth.
00:34:39.740 Dr. Ani al-Jarru,
00:34:42.360 37,
00:34:43.600 a surgeon
00:34:44.080 at the hospital,
00:34:45.500 rushed in from
00:34:46.120 his home here,
00:34:47.240 dressed in his
00:34:47.820 scrubs.
00:34:48.760 But he came
00:34:49.180 not to work.
00:34:50.400 His head was
00:34:51.000 bleeding and his
00:34:52.040 daughter's jaw
00:34:52.640 was broken.
00:34:53.940 He said Hamas
00:34:54.620 militants next to
00:34:55.760 his apartment
00:34:56.180 building had
00:34:57.240 fired mortar
00:34:57.920 and rocket
00:34:58.460 rounds.
00:34:59.640 Notice the
00:35:00.060 detail here,
00:35:01.140 next to his
00:35:01.800 apartment building.
00:35:03.320 Israel fired
00:35:03.980 back with force
00:35:05.060 and his apartment
00:35:06.060 was hit.
00:35:07.360 His wife,
00:35:07.960 Albina,
00:35:08.740 originally from
00:35:09.340 Ukraine,
00:35:10.300 and his
00:35:10.600 one-year-old
00:35:11.080 son were
00:35:12.000 killed.
00:35:13.040 My son has
00:35:13.460 been turned
00:35:13.920 into pieces,
00:35:14.800 he cried.
00:35:15.900 My wife was
00:35:16.620 cut in half.
00:35:17.960 I had to
00:35:18.360 leave her body
00:35:18.940 at home.
00:35:20.260 Because Albina
00:35:21.080 was a foreigner,
00:35:21.980 she could have
00:35:22.340 left Gaza
00:35:22.860 with her children.
00:35:23.980 But Dr.
00:35:24.480 Jarru lamented
00:35:25.260 she would not
00:35:26.000 leave him
00:35:26.320 behind.
00:35:27.780 A car arrived
00:35:28.580 with more
00:35:28.960 patients.
00:35:30.060 One was a
00:35:30.540 20-year-old man
00:35:31.420 with shrapnel
00:35:32.140 in his left
00:35:32.700 leg who
00:35:33.640 demanded
00:35:34.040 quick treatment.
00:35:35.260 He turned
00:35:35.540 out to be a
00:35:35.980 militant with
00:35:36.540 Islamic Jihad.
00:35:37.440 He was
00:35:38.340 smiling a
00:35:39.080 big smile.
00:35:40.820 Hurry,
00:35:41.100 I must get
00:35:41.440 back so I
00:35:41.860 can keep
00:35:42.140 fighting,
00:35:42.800 he told
00:35:43.080 the doctors.
00:35:44.200 He was
00:35:44.520 told that
00:35:44.920 there were
00:35:45.120 more serious
00:35:45.680 cases than
00:35:46.320 his,
00:35:46.860 that he
00:35:47.140 needed to
00:35:47.520 wait.
00:35:48.100 But he
00:35:48.380 insisted.
00:35:49.400 We are
00:35:49.760 fighting the
00:35:50.180 Israelis,
00:35:51.000 he said.
00:35:51.820 When we
00:35:52.180 fire,
00:35:52.600 we run,
00:35:53.300 but they
00:35:53.600 hit back
00:35:54.000 so fast.
00:35:55.060 We run
00:35:55.440 into the
00:35:55.780 houses to
00:35:56.360 get away.
00:35:57.220 He
00:35:57.420 continued
00:35:57.980 smiling.
00:35:59.240 Why are
00:35:59.640 you so
00:35:59.980 happy?
00:36:00.900 This
00:36:01.120 reporter
00:36:01.460 asked.
00:36:02.440 Look
00:36:02.700 around
00:36:03.000 you.
00:36:03.240 A
00:36:04.060 girl who
00:36:04.480 looked about
00:36:04.880 eighteen
00:36:05.420 screamed as
00:36:06.780 a surgeon
00:36:07.180 removed shrapnel
00:36:08.220 from her
00:36:08.660 leg.
00:36:09.580 An elderly
00:36:10.020 man was
00:36:10.680 soaked in
00:36:11.160 blood.
00:36:12.260 A baby a
00:36:12.840 few weeks
00:36:13.280 old and
00:36:13.780 slightly
00:36:14.140 wounded looked
00:36:15.260 around
00:36:15.620 helplessly.
00:36:17.040 A man
00:36:17.460 lay with
00:36:17.900 parts of
00:36:18.360 his brain
00:36:18.920 coming out.
00:36:20.180 His family
00:36:20.720 wailed at
00:36:21.420 his side.
00:36:22.660 Don't you
00:36:22.960 see that
00:36:23.240 these people
00:36:23.660 are hurting?
00:36:24.620 The militant
00:36:25.240 was asked.
00:36:26.420 But I
00:36:27.060 am from
00:36:27.360 the people
00:36:27.740 too,
00:36:28.360 he said.
00:36:29.400 His smile
00:36:30.140 incandescent.
00:36:31.260 They
00:36:32.340 lost their
00:36:32.840 loved ones
00:36:33.300 as martyrs.
00:36:34.400 They
00:36:34.580 should be
00:36:34.880 happy.
00:36:35.780 I
00:36:36.060 want to
00:36:36.380 be a
00:36:36.580 martyr
00:36:36.760 too.
00:36:39.600 That's
00:36:40.120 the end
00:36:40.420 of the
00:36:40.620 article.
00:36:42.260 This
00:36:42.780 is the
00:36:43.460 problem.
00:36:44.860 We
00:36:45.380 don't have
00:36:45.880 to get
00:36:46.160 into a
00:36:46.500 time
00:36:46.760 machine
00:36:47.160 and sort
00:36:47.660 out the
00:36:47.980 history
00:36:48.280 of the
00:36:48.560 region.
00:36:49.680 We
00:36:49.880 don't have
00:36:50.300 to talk
00:36:50.680 about
00:36:50.920 1948
00:36:51.660 or
00:36:52.480 1967.
00:36:54.600 Without
00:36:54.920 this
00:36:55.800 specific
00:36:56.500 form
00:36:57.120 of
00:36:57.620 religious
00:36:57.960 fanaticism,
00:36:59.220 the
00:36:59.420 conflict
00:36:59.860 between
00:37:00.220 Israel
00:37:00.600 and her
00:37:00.900 neighbors
00:37:01.220 would be
00:37:01.540 an
00:37:01.700 ordinary
00:37:02.160 conflict.
00:37:03.480 It
00:37:03.560 would be
00:37:03.860 easy
00:37:04.220 enough
00:37:04.560 to
00:37:04.720 negotiate.
00:37:06.340 It
00:37:06.540 would be
00:37:06.860 possible
00:37:07.400 for the
00:37:08.160 Jews
00:37:08.560 and the
00:37:08.840 Muslims
00:37:09.220 to decide
00:37:10.560 to build
00:37:11.100 wealth
00:37:11.500 together.
00:37:13.280 They
00:37:13.480 could have
00:37:13.780 turned
00:37:14.260 Gaza
00:37:14.740 into an
00:37:15.420 absolutely
00:37:16.100 gorgeous
00:37:16.940 resort
00:37:17.500 on the
00:37:18.080 Mediterranean.
00:37:19.640 If all
00:37:20.680 you care
00:37:21.220 about
00:37:21.560 is the
00:37:22.480 well-being
00:37:22.940 of the
00:37:23.240 Palestinians,
00:37:24.720 you should
00:37:25.220 want them
00:37:25.840 to be
00:37:26.180 free of
00:37:26.940 this
00:37:27.140 lunatic
00:37:27.720 ideology
00:37:28.440 that has
00:37:29.160 made them
00:37:29.540 impossible
00:37:30.140 to live
00:37:30.660 with.
00:37:31.920 But for
00:37:32.540 some
00:37:32.900 reason,
00:37:33.900 most
00:37:34.200 academics
00:37:34.760 and
00:37:35.080 journalists
00:37:35.580 refuse to
00:37:36.840 recognize what
00:37:37.600 is being
00:37:37.960 revealed in
00:37:38.960 an article
00:37:39.340 like this.
00:37:40.540 They
00:37:40.780 desperately
00:37:41.360 want to
00:37:41.880 think that
00:37:42.720 specific
00:37:43.340 religious
00:37:43.800 doctrines,
00:37:44.980 like the
00:37:45.340 idea that
00:37:46.100 martyrs go
00:37:46.820 straight to
00:37:47.400 paradise,
00:37:48.400 are either
00:37:48.800 not believed
00:37:49.740 by anyone,
00:37:51.100 or if
00:37:51.500 believed,
00:37:52.540 have no
00:37:53.040 effect on a
00:37:53.740 person's
00:37:54.100 behavior.
00:37:55.240 This is
00:37:55.920 without
00:37:56.200 question the
00:37:57.440 most mystifying
00:37:58.480 and infuriating
00:37:59.720 form of
00:38:00.200 ignorance I
00:38:00.900 have ever
00:38:01.460 encountered.
00:38:02.960 Of course,
00:38:03.720 we all
00:38:04.040 desperately
00:38:04.540 want to
00:38:05.040 believe that
00:38:05.980 there's a
00:38:06.340 clear line
00:38:06.960 of distinction
00:38:07.540 between the
00:38:08.600 real fanatics
00:38:09.500 in a group
00:38:10.380 like Hamas
00:38:11.060 and the
00:38:12.000 Palestinian
00:38:12.440 people.
00:38:13.400 And this
00:38:14.060 will be true
00:38:14.440 for many
00:38:14.860 Palestinians,
00:38:15.940 I have no
00:38:16.340 doubt.
00:38:17.280 Those people
00:38:17.800 are effectively
00:38:18.460 hostages,
00:38:19.500 but it's not
00:38:20.280 true for all
00:38:20.980 Palestinians,
00:38:21.580 and it's
00:38:22.500 probably not
00:38:23.200 even true
00:38:23.700 for most
00:38:24.140 of them.
00:38:25.540 For instance,
00:38:26.080 whenever
00:38:26.320 are polled,
00:38:27.620 support for
00:38:28.140 suicide bombing
00:38:29.100 against civilians
00:38:30.360 has always
00:38:31.740 been sickeningly
00:38:32.800 high among
00:38:33.860 Palestinians,
00:38:35.140 around 70%,
00:38:36.280 and support
00:38:37.240 for specific
00:38:37.860 terrorist groups
00:38:38.660 like Hamas
00:38:39.660 and Hezbollah
00:38:40.380 generally ranges
00:38:41.440 between 40%
00:38:42.120 and 60%.
00:38:43.040 So we're not
00:38:44.640 talking about
00:38:45.300 just a few
00:38:46.080 radicals.
00:38:48.300 I mean,
00:38:48.460 have you seen
00:38:48.960 the videos
00:38:49.580 of Israeli
00:38:50.800 hostages,
00:38:51.580 being taken
00:38:52.220 into Gaza
00:38:52.800 on October
00:38:53.480 7th?
00:38:54.480 The images
00:38:55.040 of blood-covered
00:38:56.040 girls being
00:38:57.020 dragged into
00:38:57.540 vehicles and
00:38:58.700 onto motorcycles?
00:39:00.340 Have you seen
00:39:00.780 the men
00:39:01.360 swarming around
00:39:02.520 these hostages,
00:39:03.860 celebrating their
00:39:04.540 capture,
00:39:05.640 shouting,
00:39:06.180 Allahu Akbar?
00:39:07.620 Put yourself
00:39:08.420 in the minds
00:39:09.360 of these men.
00:39:11.300 Perhaps you can
00:39:12.020 understand all
00:39:13.560 this jubilance
00:39:14.420 and malice
00:39:15.200 being expressed
00:39:16.220 over captured
00:39:17.140 male soldiers,
00:39:18.880 like the
00:39:19.480 Black Hawk Down
00:39:20.280 incident in
00:39:21.300 Somalia.
00:39:22.240 But imagine
00:39:22.860 celebrating the
00:39:23.840 kidnapping of
00:39:24.980 girls,
00:39:26.000 some of whom
00:39:26.480 have been
00:39:26.760 clearly raped
00:39:27.620 and seriously
00:39:28.560 injured.
00:39:29.700 In one of
00:39:30.100 these videos,
00:39:30.820 a young woman
00:39:31.340 appears to have
00:39:31.860 had her Achilles
00:39:32.520 tendons cut
00:39:33.460 so that she
00:39:34.280 can't run
00:39:34.700 away.
00:39:35.700 Imagine
00:39:36.020 celebrating the
00:39:36.680 capture of a
00:39:37.800 terrified woman
00:39:38.640 holding her
00:39:39.380 children.
00:39:41.000 Can you
00:39:41.440 imagine this?
00:39:43.540 After 9-11,
00:39:44.920 as an American,
00:39:46.200 traumatized by an
00:39:47.160 act of terror of a
00:39:48.180 sort that we have
00:39:48.780 never seen on our
00:39:49.880 shores.
00:39:51.300 Imagine if
00:39:52.180 SEAL Team 6
00:39:53.280 had captured
00:39:54.480 some random
00:39:55.240 Saudi women and
00:39:56.260 children and
00:39:57.440 paraded them as
00:39:58.200 hostages through
00:39:59.520 Times Square.
00:40:00.920 Can you imagine
00:40:01.820 dancing for joy
00:40:03.540 and spitting in the
00:40:05.000 faces of these
00:40:05.860 terrified women?
00:40:07.440 Imagine our
00:40:08.120 soldiers dragging
00:40:09.200 the mutilated
00:40:09.880 bodies of other
00:40:10.840 Saudi non-combatants
00:40:12.120 along the sidewalk.
00:40:13.580 Can you imagine
00:40:14.220 people coming out
00:40:14.960 of their offices
00:40:15.480 and shrieking
00:40:16.720 with joy and
00:40:17.620 stomping on
00:40:18.400 their bodies?
00:40:19.740 Can you imagine
00:40:20.320 the Israelis doing
00:40:21.280 this to the
00:40:21.760 bodies of
00:40:22.180 Palestinian
00:40:22.720 non-combatants
00:40:23.780 in the streets
00:40:24.500 of Tel Aviv?
00:40:26.200 No, you can't.
00:40:28.560 Culture matters.
00:40:31.660 Beliefs matter.
00:40:34.040 So whether they
00:40:34.900 belong to the
00:40:35.620 organization or not,
00:40:37.320 the people you
00:40:37.940 see in those
00:40:38.520 videos are the
00:40:39.880 same as Hamas.
00:40:42.180 Once again, I
00:40:42.940 need to touch
00:40:44.000 the handrail
00:40:45.060 here so you
00:40:46.480 all don't fall
00:40:47.300 over.
00:40:48.360 Am I saying
00:40:48.840 that all Muslims
00:40:49.580 are dangerous
00:40:50.280 fanatics?
00:40:51.760 No.
00:40:52.940 Are they all
00:40:53.660 aspiring martyrs
00:40:54.960 committed to
00:40:55.560 waging jihad?
00:40:56.960 Of course not.
00:40:58.540 And that is a
00:40:59.180 very good thing.
00:41:01.060 Do all Christians
00:41:01.980 believe in the
00:41:02.720 physical resurrection
00:41:03.580 of Jesus?
00:41:04.500 I'm sure that
00:41:05.260 many, many
00:41:05.900 millions at this
00:41:06.960 point don't.
00:41:08.640 It is, after all,
00:41:09.500 getting harder and
00:41:10.180 harder to believe
00:41:10.740 such things.
00:41:11.920 But it is
00:41:12.740 nevertheless true
00:41:13.980 true to say
00:41:14.960 that a belief
00:41:15.600 in the physical
00:41:16.220 resurrection of
00:41:17.020 Jesus is
00:41:18.340 absolutely core
00:41:19.740 to Christianity.
00:41:21.140 This is not
00:41:22.140 controversial.
00:41:23.440 It's like saying
00:41:24.020 that Apple
00:41:24.600 builds smartphones.
00:41:26.960 Any debate
00:41:28.020 on that topic
00:41:28.980 is a fake
00:41:30.340 debate.
00:41:31.540 You want to be
00:41:32.060 a Christian who
00:41:32.640 thinks that the
00:41:33.060 resurrection was
00:41:33.780 just spiritual
00:41:34.720 or metaphorical?
00:41:36.800 Great.
00:41:37.720 You've changed
00:41:38.740 the religion.
00:41:39.900 You're making
00:41:40.480 progress.
00:41:41.100 We love you
00:41:42.340 for it.
00:41:43.800 Any debate
00:41:44.600 about whether
00:41:45.400 Islam really
00:41:46.440 teaches, at
00:41:47.920 its core, a
00:41:49.360 worldview that
00:41:49.960 justifies the
00:41:50.620 barbarism of
00:41:51.360 Hamas, is a
00:41:52.960 fake debate.
00:41:54.460 Because Islam
00:41:55.360 does teach this.
00:41:57.500 And much depends
00:41:58.580 on the majority
00:41:59.260 of Muslims
00:41:59.900 worldwide reframing
00:42:02.360 and ignoring
00:42:03.580 or otherwise
00:42:04.820 relinquishing some
00:42:06.420 of the core
00:42:07.020 tenets of Islam.
00:42:08.100 because they're
00:42:09.140 absolutely at
00:42:10.180 odds with our
00:42:11.480 common project
00:42:12.260 of building
00:42:12.720 open, pluralistic
00:42:13.860 societies.
00:42:15.980 Acknowledging this
00:42:17.080 and demanding
00:42:18.360 that Muslims
00:42:19.160 themselves acknowledge
00:42:20.580 this is not
00:42:22.400 bigotry.
00:42:23.640 It is basic
00:42:24.500 sanity.
00:42:26.160 The opposition
00:42:26.820 between radical
00:42:27.700 Islam and
00:42:29.180 Western values
00:42:30.140 is an existential
00:42:31.540 concern for
00:42:32.920 Israel.
00:42:33.720 And it could
00:42:34.340 one day become
00:42:34.900 an existential
00:42:35.420 concern for the
00:42:36.740 rest of us.
00:42:38.020 Am I saying
00:42:38.440 that things are
00:42:38.900 hopeless?
00:42:40.060 No.
00:42:41.080 In fact, it's a
00:42:41.640 very hopeful sign
00:42:42.540 that several
00:42:43.040 Middle Eastern
00:42:43.620 regimes appear to
00:42:44.540 want normalized
00:42:45.180 relations with
00:42:46.280 Israel at this
00:42:47.100 point.
00:42:48.120 And the fact that
00:42:48.680 the Saudis and
00:42:49.440 the Jordanians
00:42:50.120 helped repel
00:42:50.900 Iran's recent
00:42:51.760 drone and missile
00:42:52.540 attack was also
00:42:54.100 very promising.
00:42:55.900 However, the
00:42:56.400 fact that Arab
00:42:57.360 monarchs and
00:42:58.240 dictators can see
00:42:59.560 the wisdom of
00:43:00.220 changing their
00:43:00.700 policies toward
00:43:01.480 Israel does not
00:43:02.620 mean that attitudes
00:43:03.340 have changed on
00:43:04.280 the so-called
00:43:04.840 Arab street.
00:43:05.640 And what the
00:43:06.540 street will
00:43:06.940 tolerate will
00:43:07.620 limit what
00:43:08.040 even dictators
00:43:08.700 can do.
00:43:10.120 These attitudes
00:43:10.780 will, of course,
00:43:11.460 be massively
00:43:12.080 informed by
00:43:13.040 Islam.
00:43:14.300 There's also the
00:43:14.820 fact that any
00:43:15.460 Arab solidarity
00:43:16.280 with Israel
00:43:16.980 against Iran
00:43:17.800 might have less
00:43:18.880 to do with
00:43:19.360 truly shared
00:43:20.060 human values
00:43:20.940 and more to
00:43:21.940 do with the
00:43:22.340 sectarian schism
00:43:23.360 between Sunni
00:43:24.200 and Shia Islam.
00:43:25.720 But if these
00:43:26.140 autocrats want to
00:43:26.920 drag their
00:43:27.340 countries into
00:43:27.900 the modern world,
00:43:29.360 I am certainly
00:43:29.900 rooting for them.
00:43:31.540 However, the
00:43:32.020 deeper principle is
00:43:32.860 that there is a
00:43:33.700 clash of
00:43:34.260 civilizations between
00:43:35.900 traditional Islam
00:43:37.280 and Western
00:43:38.220 values.
00:43:39.440 And what we're
00:43:39.900 seeing on college
00:43:40.720 campuses is a
00:43:41.960 very successful
00:43:42.640 manipulation of
00:43:44.140 Western weakness
00:43:45.040 wherein we can
00:43:46.160 have our own
00:43:46.780 values of
00:43:47.540 tolerance and
00:43:48.480 diversity and
00:43:49.420 self-criticism and
00:43:50.780 compassion weaponized
00:43:52.540 against us.
00:43:54.300 Ask yourself,
00:43:55.280 what is it that we
00:43:56.260 want and are
00:43:57.320 right to want and
00:43:58.600 must defend without
00:43:59.880 apology in the
00:44:01.160 West?
00:44:01.480 rational conversation,
00:44:04.480 individual freedom,
00:44:06.060 the rule of law,
00:44:07.620 the consent of the
00:44:08.560 governed, the
00:44:09.840 peaceful transfer of
00:44:10.760 power, a strong
00:44:12.400 civil society, and
00:44:14.060 yes, tolerance of
00:44:15.380 difference, where that
00:44:16.700 difference doesn't put
00:44:17.460 all other good things
00:44:18.560 in peril.
00:44:19.800 What do these good
00:44:20.500 things give us?
00:44:21.800 They give us open
00:44:22.580 societies where
00:44:24.000 scientific progress
00:44:25.140 and creative
00:44:26.320 intelligence and
00:44:27.380 increasing wealth
00:44:28.340 and social
00:44:29.540 mobility and
00:44:30.920 personal security
00:44:31.860 and public
00:44:32.980 justice and a
00:44:34.560 healthy environment
00:44:35.420 and institutional
00:44:37.040 transparency and
00:44:38.880 a generous social
00:44:39.740 safety net are
00:44:41.280 more and more
00:44:42.120 the norm.
00:44:43.780 Obviously, we have
00:44:44.640 imperfectly secured
00:44:45.880 these goods, even
00:44:47.200 in the best societies
00:44:48.180 on earth, but it
00:44:49.600 is just as obvious
00:44:50.680 that some places
00:44:51.960 have none of
00:44:52.660 them.
00:44:53.440 And worse, some
00:44:54.860 people, some
00:44:56.100 groups, even
00:44:57.320 whole cultures
00:44:58.320 don't want most
00:44:59.960 of these things.
00:45:01.120 It is time to
00:45:01.800 admit that not
00:45:02.520 everyone wants a
00:45:03.500 good life as you
00:45:04.600 and I understand
00:45:05.320 it.
00:45:06.220 Hey, kids, Hamas
00:45:07.760 does not want what
00:45:08.820 you want.
00:45:09.920 They would throw
00:45:10.740 your LGBTQ
00:45:11.660 friends off
00:45:12.820 rooftops.
00:45:14.200 And I'm sorry to
00:45:14.920 say many
00:45:15.600 Palestinians want
00:45:17.300 what Hamas
00:45:18.020 wants.
00:45:19.080 This is a hard
00:45:19.980 truth and has
00:45:21.760 made peace in the
00:45:22.740 Middle East so far
00:45:23.980 impossible.
00:45:25.580 The people of the
00:45:26.660 future, and
00:45:27.640 perhaps our future
00:45:28.560 selves, will know
00:45:30.040 what we can't know
00:45:31.020 now, which is how
00:45:32.540 we handled this
00:45:33.640 moment.
00:45:34.580 How or whether we
00:45:35.620 rose to the
00:45:36.260 challenge of having
00:45:37.440 our deepest
00:45:38.080 principles used
00:45:39.060 against us,
00:45:40.320 carefully inverted
00:45:41.280 and used against
00:45:42.540 us.
00:45:43.340 Freedom of speech,
00:45:44.880 tolerance of
00:45:45.500 diversity, self-doubt.
00:45:48.060 These virtues can be
00:45:49.200 used against their
00:45:50.140 adherents, cynically,
00:45:52.220 and with evil
00:45:52.940 intent.
00:45:53.440 That is what
00:45:54.760 Islamic extremists
00:45:55.760 are doing all
00:45:56.500 over the world.
00:45:57.860 That is what
00:45:58.540 their organizations
00:45:59.380 are doing inside
00:46:00.660 our own societies.
00:46:02.520 This is not a
00:46:03.620 conspiracy theory.
00:46:05.000 This has all been
00:46:05.840 publicly visible for
00:46:07.040 decades.
00:46:08.320 And they are being
00:46:08.940 facilitated by
00:46:10.380 useful idiots, as
00:46:11.980 is now especially
00:46:12.880 evident on our
00:46:13.680 college campuses.
00:46:15.460 Of course, we are
00:46:16.360 also being played by
00:46:17.500 Russia and China,
00:46:18.820 and perhaps other
00:46:19.560 hostile foreign
00:46:20.340 actors, who are
00:46:21.400 fanning the flames of
00:46:22.500 our own partisanship
00:46:23.440 and hysteria.
00:46:24.840 But part of that
00:46:25.740 hysteria is that
00:46:27.040 many of us now
00:46:27.800 perceive any effort
00:46:29.240 to limit the spread
00:46:30.440 of misinformation
00:46:31.100 and social contagion
00:46:33.000 to be the first
00:46:34.400 signs of Orwellian
00:46:35.720 repression from our
00:46:37.180 own government.
00:46:38.620 We live in a
00:46:39.360 country where
00:46:40.360 people go berserk
00:46:41.600 whenever they learn
00:46:42.840 that our government
00:46:43.480 can access information
00:46:44.740 through a court
00:46:45.760 order that they
00:46:46.820 themselves routinely
00:46:47.960 give to random
00:46:49.040 apps and other
00:46:49.820 services just for the
00:46:51.300 sake of convenience.
00:46:52.500 It is utterly
00:46:53.940 childish to imagine
00:46:55.480 that our interests
00:46:56.980 as a nation are
00:46:58.520 best served by
00:46:59.520 total institutional
00:47:00.860 distrust, where we
00:47:02.580 have people like
00:47:03.320 Edward Snowden and
00:47:04.660 Julian Assange
00:47:05.680 hacking and leaking
00:47:07.080 state secrets
00:47:08.060 continuously.
00:47:09.560 Most people haven't
00:47:10.780 spent five minutes
00:47:12.020 imagining the gravity
00:47:13.720 of what must be in
00:47:15.020 every U.S.
00:47:15.960 president's daily
00:47:16.860 briefing.
00:47:17.980 We have to grow up
00:47:19.560 and do what it takes
00:47:21.100 to protect our
00:47:21.840 society from people
00:47:22.940 and groups and
00:47:23.700 foreign adversaries
00:47:24.720 that actually want
00:47:26.280 to destroy it.
00:47:27.840 Of course, it's true
00:47:29.180 that fighting terror
00:47:30.660 and confusion can put
00:47:32.300 the very freedoms we
00:47:33.400 seek to protect in
00:47:34.360 jeopardy.
00:47:35.260 It's also true that in
00:47:37.140 the presence of
00:47:37.760 sufficient terror and
00:47:39.280 confusion, we will
00:47:40.700 embrace a regime of
00:47:41.940 surveillance and
00:47:43.220 censorship and even
00:47:44.700 violence that could
00:47:45.980 seem to justify the
00:47:47.000 fears of every
00:47:47.760 conspiracy theorist
00:47:48.820 and make it seem
00:47:49.720 that the real threat
00:47:50.620 to liberty is coming
00:47:51.860 from our own side,
00:47:53.260 from our own
00:47:53.840 institutions, and
00:47:55.060 from our own
00:47:55.520 government.
00:47:56.300 We have to perform
00:47:57.700 this high-wire act
00:47:59.000 successfully.
00:48:00.420 We can't forget our
00:48:01.660 actual values.
00:48:03.480 You take immigration,
00:48:05.260 providing sanctuary to
00:48:06.520 real refugees fleeing
00:48:08.020 violence and welcoming
00:48:09.640 immigrants who are
00:48:10.400 seeking to better
00:48:11.120 their lives and want
00:48:12.620 to build those lives
00:48:13.640 in the West.
00:48:14.700 This is one of our
00:48:15.420 core humanitarian
00:48:16.420 values.
00:48:17.540 We don't want to get
00:48:18.360 rid of that.
00:48:19.720 Emma Lazarus' poem
00:48:21.220 inspired by the
00:48:22.180 Statue of Liberty,
00:48:23.320 which is now inscribed
00:48:24.180 on a plaque there,
00:48:25.640 give me your tired,
00:48:26.600 your poor, your
00:48:27.280 huddled masses yearning
00:48:28.460 to breathe free,
00:48:29.860 that's not just
00:48:30.920 sentimental bullshit.
00:48:32.680 That's the best of
00:48:33.620 America.
00:48:35.160 It's never quite been
00:48:36.060 our immigration policy.
00:48:37.540 It's always been
00:48:38.300 aspirational.
00:48:39.660 But we want to be a
00:48:40.960 country that is
00:48:42.180 strong enough and
00:48:43.800 generous enough to be
00:48:45.720 a light unto the
00:48:46.580 rest of the world.
00:48:48.580 Emma Lazarus,
00:48:49.320 incidentally, was
00:48:49.860 Jewish.
00:48:50.860 The great replacement
00:48:51.600 started there, fellas,
00:48:53.200 with the Statue of
00:48:54.520 Liberty.
00:48:55.600 You might want to get
00:48:56.220 on that, Tucker.
00:48:57.200 That's your bread and
00:48:57.860 butter right there.
00:48:59.580 The question we have to
00:49:00.780 answer is, how can open
00:49:02.240 societies like ours
00:49:03.620 maintain their values
00:49:05.420 and even improve them
00:49:07.340 in a world where we have
00:49:09.040 real enemies?
00:49:09.820 You don't have to be a
00:49:12.280 xenophobe or a
00:49:13.580 Christian nationalist
00:49:14.460 or a Nazi or any
00:49:16.680 other species of
00:49:17.660 asshole to recognize
00:49:19.040 that some people are
00:49:20.180 coming into our
00:49:20.900 societies with no
00:49:22.620 intention of ever
00:49:23.820 sharing our values.
00:49:25.600 Again, this is about
00:49:26.780 culture, ideas, and
00:49:29.000 their consequences,
00:49:30.160 not the color of
00:49:31.440 people's skin.
00:49:32.960 If we imported a
00:49:34.020 sufficient number of
00:49:34.880 communists into the
00:49:36.080 United States, it
00:49:37.800 would be no surprise
00:49:38.820 if we one day
00:49:39.880 discovered that we
00:49:40.560 had a problem with
00:49:41.440 communists seeking to
00:49:43.040 demolish the very
00:49:43.860 foundations of our
00:49:44.820 economy.
00:49:45.960 And it would serve us
00:49:47.200 right.
00:49:47.960 They were wearing their
00:49:48.880 antipathy for
00:49:49.760 capitalism on their
00:49:50.940 sleeves the whole time.
00:49:53.020 They were telling us
00:49:54.120 ad nauseum what they
00:49:56.300 want to accomplish, the
00:49:57.880 destruction of
00:49:58.540 capitalism.
00:49:59.640 How could we be
00:50:00.460 surprised if a
00:50:01.820 massive influx of
00:50:03.020 committed communists
00:50:04.260 eventually posed a
00:50:05.940 threat to our way of
00:50:06.840 life?
00:50:07.800 Similarly, if we
00:50:09.260 import a sufficient
00:50:10.260 number of Islamists
00:50:11.500 and jihadists, we
00:50:13.100 will eventually have
00:50:13.800 a problem with
00:50:14.500 political and militant
00:50:15.640 Islam.
00:50:16.780 This is guaranteed.
00:50:18.640 And to my eye, much
00:50:19.580 of Western Europe
00:50:20.420 already has this
00:50:21.320 problem, to a degree
00:50:22.560 that it should find
00:50:23.440 intolerable.
00:50:25.020 It is completely
00:50:25.760 rational, and not at
00:50:27.520 all an expression of
00:50:28.560 bigotry, as an
00:50:29.860 American, to not want
00:50:31.520 to follow Western
00:50:32.480 Europe down that
00:50:33.280 path.
00:50:34.620 Does this mean that I
00:50:35.360 was in favor of
00:50:36.160 Trump's idiotic ban on
00:50:37.660 Muslim immigration?
00:50:39.200 No.
00:50:40.340 Given that we need to
00:50:41.080 win a war of ideas
00:50:42.240 within the Muslim
00:50:43.240 community, given that
00:50:44.400 we need to inoculate
00:50:45.480 Western societies
00:50:46.520 against Islamic
00:50:47.340 extremism, some of the
00:50:49.020 most valuable
00:50:49.560 immigrants we could
00:50:50.360 have, in my view, are
00:50:52.400 truly secular Muslims,
00:50:54.460 truly liberal Muslims,
00:50:56.180 and above all,
00:50:57.220 ex-Muslims.
00:50:58.700 We want people who
00:50:59.820 come from Muslim
00:51:00.780 majority societies,
00:51:01.880 and who understand
00:51:03.500 exactly why life in
00:51:05.500 those societies is not
00:51:06.680 as good as it is in
00:51:07.620 the West.
00:51:08.700 Not just because we
00:51:09.580 have more money, but
00:51:10.980 because we have better
00:51:12.020 values.
00:51:13.440 We want people from
00:51:14.720 Pakistan and Iran who
00:51:16.920 are appalled by
00:51:18.420 religious fanaticism.
00:51:20.120 Put these people at the
00:51:21.260 front of the line.
00:51:23.040 There is not a shred of
00:51:24.580 xenophobia or bigotry,
00:51:27.100 much less racism,
00:51:28.360 implied by anything I
00:51:30.660 have said on this
00:51:31.700 podcast.
00:51:32.940 But let's not lie to
00:51:33.920 ourselves that our
00:51:35.120 societies can absorb an
00:51:36.380 endless number of
00:51:37.980 profoundly ideological
00:51:39.500 people who only feign
00:51:41.720 tolerance of diversity
00:51:43.100 because they are in a
00:51:44.140 position of weakness,
00:51:45.480 and who, when strong,
00:51:47.240 will seek to impose
00:51:48.260 their religious strictures
00:51:49.360 on everyone else.
00:51:50.640 The truth is, Islamists,
00:51:52.440 to say nothing of
00:51:53.160 jihadists, seek to
00:51:54.680 impose their religion on
00:51:55.660 everyone else, even from
00:51:57.160 a position of weakness.
00:51:58.360 And Western Europe has
00:51:59.720 been groaning under that
00:52:00.880 pressure for decades.
00:52:02.760 As with immigration, so
00:52:04.140 it is with free speech.
00:52:05.940 I think the U.S. is in a
00:52:06.980 much better position than
00:52:07.980 any other country because
00:52:08.980 we have the First
00:52:09.600 Amendment.
00:52:10.560 But the First Amendment
00:52:11.520 isn't a perfect guide for
00:52:13.800 private platforms and
00:52:15.720 publishers deciding what
00:52:17.480 speech to disseminate or
00:52:19.100 to amplify algorithmically
00:52:20.740 or to sponsor.
00:52:22.660 We are simply drowning in
00:52:24.580 lies that are rendering
00:52:26.080 our society increasingly
00:52:27.580 ungovernable.
00:52:28.380 This problem exists equally,
00:52:30.580 if differently, on both
00:52:32.060 sides of our political
00:52:32.900 landscape.
00:52:34.660 Right of center, some of
00:52:35.500 the most prominent voices
00:52:36.620 in alternative media
00:52:37.740 regularly launder Russian
00:52:39.780 propaganda about elections
00:52:41.660 and U.S. foreign policy
00:52:43.160 and the war in Ukraine
00:52:44.820 and vaccines.
00:52:46.900 Left of center, there's
00:52:48.480 almost pure confusion
00:52:49.680 about Israel and its
00:52:51.140 enemies.
00:52:52.080 At our best universities,
00:52:53.520 we're witnessing a zombie
00:52:55.360 apocalypse of profoundly
00:52:57.300 misinformed kids.
00:52:59.640 Of course, broadcasting
00:53:00.580 divisive lies is generally
00:53:02.220 legal because it's
00:53:03.420 protected by the First
00:53:04.260 Amendment.
00:53:05.060 But that doesn't mean
00:53:05.840 private platforms and
00:53:07.700 civil society organizations
00:53:09.140 shouldn't do something to
00:53:10.940 contain the problem.
00:53:12.840 As I've said many times
00:53:14.160 before, if liberals remain
00:53:16.120 confused about Islamic
00:53:17.880 extremism, the appetite for
00:53:20.160 right-wing authoritarianism is
00:53:22.200 going to continue to grow
00:53:23.360 throughout the West, we need
00:53:26.040 to do everything we can to
00:53:28.260 avoid this.
00:53:30.360 Thanks for listening.