Making Sense - Sam Harris - October 28, 2014


#4 — The Path and the Goal


Episode Stats

Length

50 minutes

Words per Minute

140.62408

Word Count

7,149

Sentence Count

506

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

20


Summary

Joseph Goldstein has been a meditation teacher for over forty years, and is one of the most respected meditation teachers in the Western world. In this episode of the Making Sense Podcast, Joseph talks about how he got into meditation, and how it led him to travel the world teaching meditation to other Westerners. He also talks about his first experience with meditation, how he became interested in Buddhism, and why meditation is so important to him. He also shares some of his favorite memories of his time in the Peace Corps in the 60s and 70s, and talks about what it was like to be a student of Buddhism in the early days of that service. And, of course, he talks about why he thinks meditation is a vital part of being a good human being, even when you don t have a formal training in it. We don t run ads on the podcast, and therefore, therefore, are made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we re doing here, please consider becoming a supporter of what we're doing here. Please consider becoming one of our sponsors, so that you can get access to the full-length episodes of the podcast you ve been asking for. Sam Harris and I can all be part of the making sense community. Thanks to our sponsorships, we re making sense of the world. -Sam Harris and the podcast is made possible by the support we re getting, not only by our listeners, but by you, the listeners. . Thanks for listening to the podcast and making sense, and for supporting the podcast by becoming a member of the community, and becoming a patron, and helping us spread the word about the podcast. , and so on and so we can keep on spreading the word of making sense to the rest of the word of the things we re talking about making sense. Thank you, and so much more! - Your support is so appreciated, and it helps us keep on making sense and spreading it around the world, and we can do more of it everywhere we talk about things like this, everywhere we can spread it everywhere, and everywhere we see it, everywhere everywhere we do it, and in the world thank you, everywhere, we get it, more of that, and more of us get a chance to help us do it. Thank you for listening, and thank you for helping us make sense of it.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:08.980 This is Sam Harris.
00:00:11.040 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this,
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00:00:26.100 to add to your favorite podcatcher,
00:00:28.120 along with other subscriber-only content.
00:00:30.760 We don't run ads on the podcast,
00:00:32.540 and therefore it's made possible entirely
00:00:34.080 through the support of our subscribers.
00:00:35.960 So if you enjoy what we're doing here,
00:00:37.820 please consider becoming one.
00:00:46.500 I'm here with Joseph Goldstein,
00:00:48.300 who's a very old friend
00:00:50.040 and quite respected meditation teacher,
00:00:53.260 and we're going to talk about
00:00:54.280 all things related to meditation and mindfulness.
00:00:57.760 Joseph and I have known each other for about 25 years,
00:01:01.480 and he was one of my first meditation teachers
00:01:03.940 and became a friend a long time ago.
00:01:06.840 We spent a lot of time studying with other teachers in Asia.
00:01:10.120 He's here recording this interview with me
00:01:12.260 under less-than-ideal audio conditions,
00:01:14.880 so we apologize for that.
00:01:16.460 Joseph, for those of you who don't know,
00:01:18.860 started the Insight Meditation Society
00:01:20.820 in Western Massachusetts,
00:01:22.100 and has probably done more than anyone,
00:01:25.920 certainly as much as anyone,
00:01:27.180 to establish the practice of mindfulness in the West,
00:01:30.540 and this explosion of interest you see in mindfulness
00:01:33.840 in the scientific community
00:01:35.260 and in clinical practice
00:01:36.820 is largely the result of how clearly he and his colleagues
00:01:41.780 have taught it to thousands of Westerners.
00:01:45.240 So Joseph and I are going to talk about mindfulness
00:01:47.160 and the mind in general
00:01:48.620 and probably push into some areas of interest only to us
00:01:52.520 and alienate 99% of our listeners,
00:01:55.500 but that's what we are free to do.
00:01:57.680 So Joseph, thank you for being here,
00:01:59.160 and thank you for agreeing to talk about all this with me.
00:02:01.560 I'm delighted to have a chance
00:02:03.640 to get back into the meat of our discussions,
00:02:07.100 which we've had over all these years.
00:02:09.400 Joseph and I have had arguments on transcontinental...
00:02:11.940 Just about everything.
00:02:13.000 Yes, about everything,
00:02:14.520 and on transcontinental flights
00:02:17.340 where he has been captive
00:02:18.460 and desperate to avoid me,
00:02:21.060 however unsuccessfully.
00:02:22.720 So before we get into esoterica,
00:02:26.740 tell us a little bit about how you got into meditation
00:02:29.160 and how this became your life's work.
00:02:32.720 Well, I was studying philosophy
00:02:35.680 at Columbia University in New York
00:02:38.660 as an undergraduate,
00:02:40.780 and by the time my senior year came around,
00:02:44.660 I was really anxious just to get out and see the world,
00:02:47.020 and this was in 1965,
00:02:50.180 and it was just soon after the Peace Corps was established.
00:02:55.220 And so that seemed to me a really good vehicle
00:02:59.000 for getting out and seeing new parts of the world.
00:03:04.040 So I applied to the Peace Corps,
00:03:05.340 and I actually applied to go to East Africa,
00:03:07.640 but as fate or karma or accident
00:03:13.320 or whatever, whatever the conditions may be,
00:03:17.580 happened, they sent me to Thailand,
00:03:20.780 which turned out to be a very fortunate happening.
00:03:26.400 Because while I was in Thailand,
00:03:28.040 I had my first contact really with Buddhism
00:03:31.240 and Buddhist teachings and meditation.
00:03:34.900 Soon after I started teaching in Bangkok,
00:03:39.140 I was teaching English,
00:03:40.820 I started going to a discussion group
00:03:44.660 at the Marble Temple,
00:03:46.100 which is quite a famous temple in Bangkok.
00:03:49.060 And there were some Western monks
00:03:51.200 who were leading the discussion,
00:03:53.340 kind of introducing Westerners
00:03:54.780 to some of the Buddhist ideas and concepts.
00:03:59.280 Of course, having just graduated college in philosophy,
00:04:02.680 I went there full of my own ideas about things,
00:04:05.740 and I would be asking so many questions in the group
00:04:08.760 that people would stop coming.
00:04:11.460 I think we've all been in groups like that.
00:04:14.240 Right.
00:04:15.120 And we've probably both been that person.
00:04:17.200 You were the insufferable blowhard.
00:04:18.780 Exactly.
00:04:20.220 So finally, this one monk says,
00:04:22.320 Joseph, I think you ought to meditate.
00:04:24.960 I didn't know anything about it.
00:04:26.500 I didn't know anybody who meditated.
00:04:28.080 I was 21, 22 years old in the Far East.
00:04:31.560 It was all extremely exotic to me.
00:04:34.660 And it just seemed like a really interesting thing to do.
00:04:39.160 So he gave me some initial instruction,
00:04:42.460 and I also began a little reading.
00:04:45.740 There was one classic book called
00:04:47.540 The Heart of Buddhist Meditation,
00:04:49.140 which laid out the basic methodology.
00:04:54.600 And so I gathered kind of all the sitting paraphernalia,
00:04:57.580 cushions and this and that, you know, to sit.
00:04:59.880 And the very first time,
00:05:02.160 I set my alarm clock for five minutes
00:05:04.220 because I didn't want to over-sit.
00:05:06.320 But something quite amazing happened
00:05:08.660 in that first five minutes.
00:05:10.700 And it really changed the whole course of my life.
00:05:14.160 So the first time you sat,
00:05:15.540 you actually connected with the practice
00:05:17.140 and realized it was something worth looking into.
00:05:19.660 Well, what I realized,
00:05:20.620 it wasn't that I had any great enlightenment experience,
00:05:23.220 but what I realized was that there was a way
00:05:26.100 to look into the mind
00:05:27.460 as well as looking out through it.
00:05:30.100 And my whole life,
00:05:30.740 I had just been looking out.
00:05:32.320 Right.
00:05:32.580 Out of my mind.
00:05:33.880 Yeah.
00:05:34.060 Rather than looking into it.
00:05:36.880 So it was like a turning in place.
00:05:39.080 Yeah.
00:05:39.280 And just that was so extraordinary to me.
00:05:43.220 You know, I got so excited,
00:05:45.100 I started inviting my friends over to watch me meditate.
00:05:48.100 Right.
00:05:49.940 Arguably the most narcissistic thing you could possibly do.
00:05:53.900 Well, more charitably, it was naive.
00:05:57.300 It really came out of this tremendous enthusiasm
00:06:01.660 for, you know, what I felt I was discovering.
00:06:04.700 Right.
00:06:05.960 Obviously, they didn't come back very often.
00:06:09.260 It made for a poor viewing experience.
00:06:12.360 Very poor.
00:06:13.140 So, but that was the beginning, you know,
00:06:16.520 and then, you know,
00:06:18.480 over the course of my time in the Peace Corps,
00:06:21.120 I just, you know,
00:06:22.420 I extended time past five minutes a little bit,
00:06:24.880 but still.
00:06:27.200 So how long did it take for you
00:06:28.560 to actually go on intensive retreat?
00:06:30.780 Oh, at the end of my Peace Corps stay,
00:06:34.300 I had an experience.
00:06:36.000 Somebody was reading from a Tibetan text.
00:06:39.060 A friend was reading.
00:06:40.000 So at this point,
00:06:41.120 you had been meditating for, what, a year?
00:06:43.600 Yeah, maybe, yeah,
00:06:44.420 but very intermittently.
00:06:46.560 Just an hour a day or something.
00:06:48.040 Probably not even, you know,
00:06:49.960 but I was dabbling.
00:06:52.100 I was just dabbling in it
00:06:53.540 and reading and going to some classes
00:06:55.640 and trying to find out more about it.
00:06:58.560 But just at the end of my Peace Corps stay
00:07:00.720 before I left for home,
00:07:03.400 I had a really transformative experience
00:07:05.800 listening to somebody read from a Tibetan text.
00:07:10.000 And it just was an experience
00:07:13.220 of opening to an understanding of the mind.
00:07:18.660 And kind of in classical Buddhist terms,
00:07:23.900 they talk about the unborn or the unformed
00:07:27.780 or using words like that
00:07:30.060 to describe the freest aspect of the mind.
00:07:33.500 And, you know, so something happened.
00:07:35.540 What the hell happened?
00:07:39.060 Somebody, somebody was reading this text,
00:07:42.040 a Tibetan text.
00:07:44.700 And that edition,
00:07:46.280 that was a very early translation of it,
00:07:49.400 which, a translation which has now been...
00:07:52.720 So, a faulty translation.
00:07:54.300 A faulty translation by Evans Wentz
00:07:57.720 called the Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation.
00:08:01.080 Right.
00:08:01.920 There have since been much more careful
00:08:04.280 translations of it.
00:08:05.700 Right.
00:08:06.340 And very powerful ones.
00:08:07.860 But even in that faulty translations...
00:08:11.240 Have the new translations revised
00:08:13.540 the very line you found so useful?
00:08:15.720 No.
00:08:16.960 Okay.
00:08:17.480 No.
00:08:17.940 All right.
00:08:18.220 So, let's...
00:08:18.640 So, back up.
00:08:19.760 You've got this faulty Victorian translation
00:08:23.340 of the Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation.
00:08:26.000 And you have a friend
00:08:27.200 who's reading it out loud to you?
00:08:28.620 Right.
00:08:28.820 And then, at one point in the reading,
00:08:32.520 just on the word unborn,
00:08:34.800 the mind opened to that experience.
00:08:40.200 Right.
00:08:41.080 Say more about that.
00:08:42.460 You hear this word unborn.
00:08:43.620 You're looking into your mind all the while.
00:08:45.900 What changes?
00:08:48.020 So, it's a momentary experience
00:08:51.640 that has the power of a lightning bolt.
00:08:54.620 So, it's a unique moment
00:08:58.280 of the mind going from
00:09:03.520 being aware of different things arising
00:09:06.760 moment after moment,
00:09:08.260 you know, what sights and sounds
00:09:09.500 and the breath and the mind itself.
00:09:11.300 And then, upon hearing the word unborn,
00:09:15.800 I mean, it's very hard to describe,
00:09:19.100 but it was...
00:09:21.300 If you think literally
00:09:22.900 of what that word means,
00:09:26.260 unborn,
00:09:28.560 it's the experience of non-occurrence.
00:09:31.760 being born is something occurring.
00:09:36.740 So, moment after moment experience
00:09:39.140 is being born and dying,
00:09:40.980 being born and dying,
00:09:41.860 moment after moment.
00:09:43.000 Unborn
00:09:43.460 is a moment of non-occurrence
00:09:48.000 which broke that stream
00:09:50.960 of continual birth,
00:09:55.060 of continual occurrence.
00:09:56.400 And the metaphor,
00:09:59.700 or simile,
00:10:00.580 one of those,
00:10:03.040 right after that moment,
00:10:07.620 I described it to myself
00:10:11.280 as zero.
00:10:13.140 It was the experience of zero.
00:10:15.320 Right.
00:10:16.100 So, the experience was,
00:10:19.260 however difficult it is
00:10:20.740 to characterize,
00:10:22.280 it entailed the loss
00:10:24.300 of ordinary sensory experience.
00:10:26.260 You're no longer seeing,
00:10:27.380 hearing, smelling,
00:10:28.040 tasting, touching, thinking.
00:10:29.180 Right.
00:10:29.480 So, the lights went out
00:10:30.920 in some sense.
00:10:32.540 The lights went out
00:10:33.520 in some sense,
00:10:34.440 but there was a knowing of that.
00:10:37.340 Right.
00:10:38.520 Right.
00:10:39.140 And this gets into another,
00:10:41.420 you know,
00:10:41.980 a deeper discussion
00:10:42.980 of that experience
00:10:43.900 which we might have later.
00:10:47.700 So, it is the knowing
00:10:50.180 of a reality.
00:10:52.160 That doesn't entail
00:10:53.280 ordinary sensory perception.
00:10:55.160 It's zero.
00:10:57.040 Right.
00:10:57.880 It's like a rebooting
00:10:59.120 of the hard drive.
00:11:00.140 Yeah.
00:11:00.740 Yeah.
00:11:02.060 But one of the things
00:11:03.280 that became so apparent
00:11:04.340 is that zero
00:11:05.340 is not nothing.
00:11:06.780 Right.
00:11:07.040 Zero is a powerful number.
00:11:08.580 Yeah.
00:11:08.900 And perhaps the most powerful number.
00:11:10.280 And the fruit of that experience
00:11:15.300 was the immediate understanding
00:11:19.180 and realization
00:11:20.100 of the selflessness
00:11:22.580 of this whole process
00:11:24.860 we call life.
00:11:26.020 That there's no,
00:11:26.980 there's no one
00:11:29.320 to whom it's happening.
00:11:31.020 Right.
00:11:31.320 It's a process
00:11:32.620 of what one teacher
00:11:35.320 described
00:11:35.780 as just empty phenomena
00:11:37.300 rolling on
00:11:38.000 meaning empty of self
00:11:39.340 empty of core substance.
00:11:42.300 Yeah.
00:11:42.820 Yeah.
00:11:43.020 That experience
00:11:43.820 doesn't refer back
00:11:45.080 to anyone.
00:11:46.380 And that just,
00:11:47.780 that all was
00:11:48.420 just understood
00:11:50.400 completely in that moment.
00:11:52.000 That view of self
00:11:53.860 was just completely gone.
00:11:56.120 So, so then what,
00:11:56.960 take me back
00:11:57.520 to the immediate aftermath
00:11:59.320 of that experience.
00:12:00.020 So your friend is reading
00:12:00.920 this, this book to you
00:12:03.000 on the word unborn
00:12:05.260 you have this,
00:12:06.420 this cessation experience.
00:12:08.060 You come out of it.
00:12:10.040 So completely,
00:12:10.960 completely different.
00:12:12.260 Your mind is blown
00:12:13.500 and, and I tell him
00:12:14.880 to stop reading.
00:12:15.820 And so how long
00:12:16.640 do you think you had been
00:12:17.720 gone for?
00:12:18.540 Just a second.
00:12:19.720 Yeah.
00:12:20.800 Momentary.
00:12:21.440 Right.
00:12:22.020 And so you could,
00:12:22.740 so you have this transformation
00:12:23.720 and now you're,
00:12:24.660 you're articulating it
00:12:26.600 to your friend.
00:12:28.120 And what's that next
00:12:29.300 half hour like?
00:12:31.160 The next half hour
00:12:32.440 was like,
00:12:33.080 I was in a completely
00:12:35.260 altered sense
00:12:36.520 of everything
00:12:38.200 because it was free
00:12:41.180 of any notion
00:12:42.380 of self,
00:12:44.580 the self center
00:12:46.240 had just dropped away.
00:12:48.020 Right.
00:12:48.800 But I,
00:12:49.460 this wasn't the fruit
00:12:51.680 of many years
00:12:53.060 of practice.
00:12:54.360 Yeah.
00:12:54.680 So I,
00:12:55.300 I really didn't have any,
00:12:57.380 I had very little context
00:12:58.840 for understanding this.
00:13:00.980 Although,
00:13:01.120 I knew enough
00:13:03.820 that something
00:13:05.560 familiar within
00:13:06.980 the Buddhist tradition
00:13:07.920 had just happened,
00:13:09.740 but I didn't understand
00:13:11.500 the mechanism
00:13:12.520 or what led up to it
00:13:13.960 or anything.
00:13:14.420 I didn't have any context.
00:13:15.580 Was there,
00:13:16.260 was there anything
00:13:16.920 negative about it
00:13:18.720 or scary about it?
00:13:19.780 Were you at all
00:13:20.740 destabilized in a way
00:13:22.180 that where you were
00:13:22.780 kind of searching
00:13:23.320 to get back
00:13:24.260 to who you were?
00:13:25.320 I wasn't searching
00:13:26.400 to get back
00:13:27.080 to who I was,
00:13:27.760 but there was a period
00:13:29.440 of,
00:13:30.120 I think,
00:13:31.440 some days
00:13:32.300 where,
00:13:32.960 yeah,
00:13:33.760 it was,
00:13:34.400 it was destabilizing
00:13:36.240 of my
00:13:36.880 previous
00:13:38.320 way of being
00:13:39.540 and the conventional
00:13:40.480 way of being.
00:13:41.220 so I was kind of
00:13:43.500 trying to find
00:13:44.780 my sea legs
00:13:45.480 in all this.
00:13:46.180 Right.
00:13:46.780 But was there part
00:13:47.800 of you at all
00:13:48.300 that worried about it,
00:13:49.440 that thought about it
00:13:50.180 in psychopathological terms?
00:13:53.180 No.
00:13:54.560 Even as,
00:13:55.500 even as
00:13:56.180 there was
00:13:57.340 kind of uncertainty
00:13:58.320 or
00:13:58.820 about how to
00:14:01.540 manifest.
00:14:03.040 Right.
00:14:03.360 you know,
00:14:04.320 how to relate.
00:14:06.260 No,
00:14:06.960 I,
00:14:07.100 I always felt
00:14:08.740 that something
00:14:09.220 tremendously
00:14:10.340 powerful
00:14:11.820 and
00:14:12.460 revealing
00:14:13.340 had happened.
00:14:14.540 Right.
00:14:15.220 To stick with
00:14:15.840 the immediate aftermath,
00:14:16.920 was that the character
00:14:17.840 of your experience
00:14:18.680 in that moment
00:14:19.500 was changed,
00:14:21.320 but if I recall correctly,
00:14:23.200 you were experiencing
00:14:24.120 things which
00:14:25.100 now you don't
00:14:26.420 necessarily tend
00:14:27.160 to experience.
00:14:28.500 I mean,
00:14:28.700 now selflessness
00:14:29.620 is still obvious to you,
00:14:30.940 but there were features
00:14:32.240 of your experience
00:14:33.160 in the immediate aftermath
00:14:34.160 of cessation
00:14:35.160 that are not true
00:14:37.120 right now.
00:14:38.480 So what was,
00:14:39.380 what was especially
00:14:40.140 salient or
00:14:42.140 psychedelic
00:14:43.360 or otherwise
00:14:44.140 odd about
00:14:45.020 those next hours?
00:14:46.880 Of course.
00:14:47.260 It was like,
00:14:47.580 it was days too.
00:14:48.620 It was like,
00:14:48.860 didn't you have like a week
00:14:49.700 where you felt like
00:14:50.680 you were as much
00:14:52.300 the other person
00:14:53.640 in the room
00:14:54.060 as you were self
00:14:54.740 or something like that?
00:14:56.100 Yeah.
00:14:57.080 But also just,
00:14:58.540 this happened
00:15:00.220 50 years ago.
00:15:01.240 Yeah.
00:15:01.540 So even though
00:15:02.480 the experience
00:15:05.220 is very vivid
00:15:06.180 in terms of impact
00:15:09.180 and understanding
00:15:10.300 some of the details
00:15:13.100 have faded.
00:15:16.220 But you have had
00:15:17.220 what you consider
00:15:17.840 the same experience
00:15:18.720 again to the practice
00:15:20.000 of meditation.
00:15:21.120 I have,
00:15:21.700 but not actually
00:15:23.540 as dramatic.
00:15:26.240 Right.
00:15:26.480 that.
00:15:27.220 The aftermath
00:15:28.100 was not as dramatic
00:15:29.160 or the,
00:15:29.600 you actually think
00:15:30.480 that you can detect
00:15:31.400 a different character
00:15:32.480 to the cessation experience?
00:15:35.700 No,
00:15:36.340 the,
00:15:36.600 I would say
00:15:37.520 the aftermath.
00:15:39.420 Right.
00:15:40.940 It was not as dramatic.
00:15:42.300 So talk about
00:15:45.440 the aftermath
00:15:45.900 for a minute.
00:15:50.860 In one,
00:15:51.340 I,
00:15:51.600 first I wanted,
00:15:52.320 I mean,
00:15:52.660 I told my friend
00:15:53.860 to stop reading
00:15:54.600 because I knew
00:15:56.360 he didn't understand
00:15:57.640 what had just happened.
00:15:59.320 It just destroyed
00:16:00.300 your mind.
00:16:01.800 So,
00:16:02.780 I mean,
00:16:03.740 there's no point
00:16:04.340 to going on
00:16:04.900 because it's like
00:16:05.680 from my perspective
00:16:08.040 I had experienced
00:16:09.900 what that teaching
00:16:11.520 was trying to do
00:16:12.420 so why,
00:16:12.940 why keep reading?
00:16:14.040 Yeah.
00:16:14.580 You know,
00:16:14.880 it was redundant
00:16:15.420 at that point.
00:16:17.540 And so I just wandered off
00:16:19.240 and I remember
00:16:20.780 this was in a school,
00:16:23.800 it was right next
00:16:24.520 to the Bangkok Zoo.
00:16:26.420 So I was just wandering around.
00:16:27.940 I was wandering around
00:16:29.020 in the zoo
00:16:30.900 and
00:16:31.380 just in this place
00:16:35.060 of,
00:16:36.360 as you said,
00:16:37.160 I mean,
00:16:37.700 the way you expressed it,
00:16:40.200 there was no separating
00:16:41.680 out of myself
00:16:43.040 separate from
00:16:45.440 everything that was being seen
00:16:47.360 or heard.
00:16:48.140 Right.
00:16:48.420 It was all,
00:16:49.140 it was all one thing.
00:16:52.080 But presumably,
00:16:53.240 you can do that now
00:16:54.460 in the context
00:16:55.720 of this conversation
00:16:56.480 with me,
00:16:57.120 but it's not quite
00:16:58.000 the same thing.
00:16:59.120 No,
00:16:59.300 because,
00:17:00.080 what is it,
00:17:00.660 but talk about
00:17:01.660 the positive characteristics
00:17:03.460 of this aftermath
00:17:04.500 experience
00:17:05.020 that is positive
00:17:05.720 not in necessarily
00:17:06.860 as being good
00:17:08.040 versus bad,
00:17:08.980 but positive
00:17:09.420 in terms of
00:17:10.160 something added
00:17:11.340 to the flavor
00:17:13.020 of experience
00:17:13.820 that's not happening
00:17:14.700 for you right now.
00:17:15.580 Mostly,
00:17:16.920 again,
00:17:17.560 I'm not sure of this,
00:17:18.920 but my sense is
00:17:21.080 that it was just
00:17:22.860 the newness
00:17:23.780 of that experience.
00:17:25.020 And so,
00:17:26.320 because it came
00:17:26.860 so out of the blue
00:17:28.100 and so unexpected
00:17:29.480 and not as
00:17:30.520 the result
00:17:31.980 of a
00:17:32.740 systematic
00:17:34.660 meditative
00:17:35.500 progression.
00:17:36.760 Right.
00:17:37.140 So,
00:17:37.460 the change
00:17:38.580 was so dramatic,
00:17:39.680 so sudden,
00:17:40.360 so unexpected,
00:17:41.960 so without
00:17:42.780 mental preparation.
00:17:44.800 It's a bit like
00:17:45.500 through the looking list.
00:17:47.040 Yeah.
00:17:47.640 All of a sudden,
00:17:48.420 you turned inside out.
00:17:49.840 Yeah.
00:17:50.160 Yeah.
00:17:50.220 Now it's just
00:17:54.360 that experience
00:17:55.640 is just,
00:17:57.480 and the understanding
00:17:58.280 is much more
00:17:59.080 familiar to me.
00:18:00.460 Right.
00:18:00.600 So I think
00:18:00.920 it just doesn't
00:18:01.700 have the same
00:18:02.180 dramatic interest.
00:18:03.760 Right.
00:18:04.220 Right.
00:18:04.620 Do you think
00:18:05.140 there's a difference
00:18:06.920 in just your stability
00:18:08.680 in that experience
00:18:09.600 so that in the
00:18:10.560 immediate aftermath
00:18:11.260 of cessation,
00:18:13.080 you were stabilized
00:18:15.160 in that selfless
00:18:17.100 awareness
00:18:18.040 to a degree
00:18:18.840 that is not
00:18:19.680 normal
00:18:20.680 in your
00:18:21.420 life?
00:18:23.060 It's hard to,
00:18:23.120 it's a little
00:18:24.560 hard to say
00:18:25.260 because
00:18:25.800 And something
00:18:28.500 kind of,
00:18:28.960 it must have,
00:18:29.340 it had a half-life,
00:18:30.580 right,
00:18:30.680 so it wore off,
00:18:31.820 this transfigured
00:18:32.800 consciousness
00:18:33.460 wore off after,
00:18:34.920 over days?
00:18:35.800 Yeah.
00:18:36.320 Yeah.
00:18:36.840 Over days.
00:18:38.240 And then what,
00:18:38.920 then you really
00:18:40.320 wanted to
00:18:40.960 find out what
00:18:42.680 the hell had happened?
00:18:43.300 Yeah,
00:18:43.560 exactly.
00:18:44.360 But this was just
00:18:45.380 at the end
00:18:45.900 of my Peace Corps stay.
00:18:46.940 So I was going home
00:18:48.640 and I had no,
00:18:50.480 I mean,
00:18:50.820 I had no idea
00:18:52.440 of what to do
00:18:54.300 or how to integrate
00:18:55.140 this,
00:18:57.180 but I,
00:18:58.560 I mean,
00:18:59.360 I tried talking
00:19:00.740 to people
00:19:01.440 about the fact
00:19:03.560 that there's really
00:19:04.040 no self
00:19:04.640 and the self
00:19:05.460 is a construct.
00:19:06.780 Of course.
00:19:07.300 People,
00:19:08.000 meaning your rabbi
00:19:09.380 in the Berkshires?
00:19:10.220 Well,
00:19:11.580 to my family
00:19:13.580 when I got home,
00:19:14.460 even to friends
00:19:15.240 before,
00:19:15.660 the friends in the
00:19:16.300 Peace Corps.
00:19:16.680 before,
00:19:17.860 before I left,
00:19:19.260 this is just like
00:19:19.940 a week or two
00:19:20.580 before.
00:19:22.140 So there's this
00:19:23.020 huge transition
00:19:23.940 happening.
00:19:24.740 Yeah.
00:19:25.180 You know,
00:19:25.620 finishing my time
00:19:26.440 in Thailand
00:19:26.940 and going back
00:19:27.420 to the States.
00:19:28.700 Obviously people
00:19:29.580 had no way
00:19:30.700 of relating
00:19:31.200 to what I was
00:19:31.980 talking about.
00:19:33.180 So when I went
00:19:34.940 home,
00:19:35.300 it didn't take
00:19:37.340 me long
00:19:37.880 to realize
00:19:39.440 that I wanted
00:19:39.880 to pursue
00:19:40.600 misunderstanding
00:19:42.020 and
00:19:43.400 actually just
00:19:44.960 a little
00:19:45.380 anecdote.
00:19:46.340 When I was
00:19:46.820 home,
00:19:47.280 I went up
00:19:48.160 to a place
00:19:48.760 called
00:19:49.100 Chapel House
00:19:49.880 at Colgate
00:19:50.360 University
00:19:50.880 to go on
00:19:53.060 a little
00:19:53.280 retreat
00:19:53.780 myself.
00:19:54.560 But this
00:19:55.060 was before
00:19:55.380 I had done
00:19:55.860 any intensive
00:19:56.480 practice.
00:19:57.000 So I went
00:19:58.380 up to this
00:19:58.700 place,
00:19:58.980 beautiful place,
00:20:00.140 upstate New
00:20:00.640 York,
00:20:01.540 and they
00:20:03.560 had a copy
00:20:04.240 of that text
00:20:04.920 there.
00:20:06.000 And so I
00:20:06.620 got somebody
00:20:07.380 to read me
00:20:09.120 the text
00:20:09.820 again,
00:20:10.440 thinking,
00:20:10.860 oh,
00:20:11.500 maybe I can
00:20:12.420 recreate this
00:20:13.700 whole thing.
00:20:14.240 read it
00:20:18.060 again.
00:20:18.480 So I
00:20:19.660 realized that
00:20:20.160 wasn't the
00:20:21.500 way.
00:20:23.400 And so
00:20:24.100 then I just
00:20:24.560 became motivated
00:20:25.340 to go back
00:20:25.920 to Asia.
00:20:28.260 This is still
00:20:29.020 1965?
00:20:30.160 No,
00:20:30.500 this is 67.
00:20:31.920 I went into
00:20:32.900 the Peace
00:20:33.180 Corps in 65,
00:20:34.140 and this
00:20:34.560 happened just
00:20:36.040 in the
00:20:36.640 beginning
00:20:37.340 months of
00:20:38.200 67.
00:20:39.700 So you
00:20:40.560 were a part
00:20:41.040 of that
00:20:41.600 wave of
00:20:42.320 Westerners
00:20:43.080 going to
00:20:43.940 India,
00:20:44.880 the slightly
00:20:45.300 early part,
00:20:46.180 going to
00:20:46.680 India to
00:20:47.880 meet Eastern
00:20:48.660 teachers of
00:20:49.920 esoterica.
00:20:51.020 So I was
00:20:51.680 going to go
00:20:51.980 back to
00:20:53.640 Thailand,
00:20:54.240 since this
00:20:55.000 is where all
00:20:55.420 this happened,
00:20:56.400 but I stopped
00:20:57.060 in India on
00:20:57.560 the way.
00:20:57.840 People had
00:20:58.200 given me the
00:20:58.720 names of
00:20:59.140 different Indian
00:21:00.400 teachers and
00:21:01.480 gurus.
00:21:02.840 So I went
00:21:03.560 in India,
00:21:03.900 and I was
00:21:04.100 just wandering
00:21:04.600 around to
00:21:05.160 some different
00:21:05.680 ashrams.
00:21:06.740 So Hindu
00:21:07.500 ashrams and
00:21:08.220 Buddhists?
00:21:08.820 Yeah.
00:21:10.580 So at this
00:21:11.500 point you were
00:21:11.880 not committed
00:21:12.540 to Buddhism,
00:21:13.940 as the
00:21:14.680 context for
00:21:15.360 your study?
00:21:16.540 I think I
00:21:17.160 was, not
00:21:19.480 so much
00:21:19.840 consciously, but
00:21:22.040 I went to
00:21:23.560 this one
00:21:23.920 Sikh ashram
00:21:24.780 that teaches
00:21:25.500 this, what
00:21:26.840 do you
00:21:26.960 call it,
00:21:27.140 inner sound?
00:21:27.800 Nod yoga?
00:21:28.680 Something like
00:21:29.240 that.
00:21:30.100 So I went
00:21:30.460 there and
00:21:30.640 here's a
00:21:30.880 very powerful
00:21:31.720 big ashram
00:21:33.080 in the
00:21:33.320 Punjab.
00:21:35.020 I've got
00:21:35.660 tinnitus now,
00:21:36.280 I could be a
00:21:36.680 master of
00:21:37.240 nod yoga.
00:21:38.220 I could take
00:21:39.080 a sound that
00:21:40.920 is unignorable.
00:21:43.600 He was
00:21:44.360 very impressive,
00:21:45.840 very powerful,
00:21:46.840 and everybody
00:21:47.600 who went
00:21:48.340 there was
00:21:49.540 on the
00:21:50.260 trajectory of
00:21:51.800 wanting to
00:21:52.380 get initiated
00:21:53.060 into it.
00:21:54.480 So all the
00:21:55.580 pressure, the
00:21:56.960 peer pressure,
00:21:57.660 was to go
00:21:58.620 for initiation.
00:21:59.960 But there
00:22:01.100 was just
00:22:01.460 something in
00:22:02.120 me based on
00:22:02.760 this experience
00:22:03.640 that said,
00:22:04.480 this is not
00:22:05.100 my path.
00:22:06.400 So I went
00:22:06.800 for a personal
00:22:07.520 interview with
00:22:08.760 the master,
00:22:09.180 and he wasn't
00:22:11.460 trying to convince
00:22:12.080 me or anything.
00:22:13.260 I said to him,
00:22:15.080 it just doesn't
00:22:15.560 feel the right
00:22:16.160 path for me,
00:22:16.940 I think I'll
00:22:17.380 go back to
00:22:17.980 Thailand.
00:22:18.920 And he said,
00:22:20.460 I think you
00:22:21.000 should stay in
00:22:21.560 India.
00:22:23.140 But not
00:22:23.700 necessarily with
00:22:24.300 him.
00:22:24.460 No, not with
00:22:25.000 him.
00:22:25.820 So as it
00:22:27.080 turned out,
00:22:27.620 that proved
00:22:28.760 to be a very
00:22:29.300 prescient remark.
00:22:30.840 Whether,
00:22:31.800 from my
00:22:32.800 perspective...
00:22:33.760 It's a pity
00:22:34.060 you even
00:22:34.400 wearing a
00:22:34.740 turban all
00:22:35.180 these years.
00:22:36.560 It would
00:22:37.080 have been a
00:22:37.360 very different
00:22:38.080 path.
00:22:40.820 Anyway, I'm
00:22:41.220 going back to
00:22:41.660 the train
00:22:42.040 station to
00:22:42.600 go back to
00:22:43.160 Delhi, to
00:22:43.580 go to
00:22:43.880 Thailand again.
00:22:45.760 In the
00:22:46.400 rickshaw, on
00:22:47.060 the way to
00:22:47.700 the train
00:22:48.100 station, the
00:22:49.400 thought pops
00:22:50.000 into my
00:22:50.460 mind, maybe
00:22:52.060 I should go
00:22:52.420 to Bodh Gaya,
00:22:53.400 which is the
00:22:53.920 place the
00:22:54.260 Buddha was
00:22:54.580 enlightened.
00:22:55.840 I go to
00:22:56.320 Bodh Gaya,
00:22:57.000 and at this
00:22:57.400 time there
00:22:57.720 are not that
00:22:58.420 many Westerners.
00:23:00.520 In Bodh Gaya
00:23:01.320 there were very
00:23:01.820 few.
00:23:02.140 I go to
00:23:04.540 this place
00:23:05.640 called the
00:23:05.980 Burmese
00:23:06.320 Vihara, where
00:23:07.040 the Westerners
00:23:08.080 were staying.
00:23:08.560 It was like
00:23:08.700 the rest house
00:23:10.120 for Burmese
00:23:10.600 pilgrims, but
00:23:12.260 Burma was
00:23:12.740 closed at that
00:23:13.380 time, so no
00:23:14.900 Burmese were
00:23:15.420 coming.
00:23:16.560 So the few
00:23:17.260 Westerners, there
00:23:18.060 were maybe five
00:23:18.860 or six
00:23:19.180 Westerners, they
00:23:20.800 were staying
00:23:21.320 there.
00:23:22.420 I met
00:23:22.900 someone, they
00:23:23.320 were a group
00:23:23.600 of Danish
00:23:24.080 people.
00:23:24.480 they were
00:23:26.220 studying
00:23:26.740 meditation
00:23:27.340 with this
00:23:29.580 person named
00:23:30.600 Anakarika
00:23:31.740 Munindra, who
00:23:33.060 had just
00:23:33.480 come back
00:23:33.960 from nine
00:23:35.260 years in
00:23:35.740 Burma and
00:23:36.980 was teaching
00:23:37.700 Vipassana,
00:23:38.820 insight
00:23:39.260 meditation.
00:23:40.360 So he had
00:23:40.860 just come
00:23:41.360 back, he
00:23:41.860 had started
00:23:42.460 teaching in
00:23:43.160 Bodh Gaya, so
00:23:44.300 these Danish
00:23:44.760 people said,
00:23:46.060 you know, you
00:23:46.380 like to meet
00:23:46.860 Munindraji.
00:23:48.040 So I went
00:23:48.840 to see him, he
00:23:49.760 explained the
00:23:50.560 Vipassana
00:23:51.020 practice, and
00:23:52.880 it was an
00:23:53.740 immediate
00:23:54.280 connection, it's
00:23:55.580 exactly what I
00:23:56.900 was looking
00:23:57.280 for.
00:23:58.020 But wasn't
00:23:58.320 Vipassana what
00:23:59.000 you had been
00:23:59.400 given in
00:23:59.840 Thailand?
00:24:00.440 Not, not
00:24:02.280 really.
00:24:02.640 What I had
00:24:02.980 been given in
00:24:03.440 Thailand was
00:24:04.020 much more just
00:24:05.200 the preliminary
00:24:06.040 being with the
00:24:06.980 breath.
00:24:07.700 So it was
00:24:08.200 more like a
00:24:08.700 concentration
00:24:09.100 practice in
00:24:09.920 a way.
00:24:11.920 And it was
00:24:12.680 very unintensive.
00:24:14.380 You know, when
00:24:14.720 I went to
00:24:15.340 Munindra, and
00:24:16.640 he explained the
00:24:17.260 practice, and
00:24:17.740 then I started
00:24:18.220 doing it
00:24:18.880 intensively, that's
00:24:20.980 when I realized
00:24:21.760 this is a good
00:24:23.560 expression of
00:24:24.720 what my
00:24:25.160 experience was,
00:24:26.240 had been.
00:24:26.900 Right.
00:24:27.540 Well, for our
00:24:28.640 listeners who
00:24:29.240 are unaware
00:24:30.020 of, maybe
00:24:31.940 unaware of the
00:24:32.920 details of
00:24:33.400 Vipassana
00:24:33.720 practice, can
00:24:34.820 you do just
00:24:35.780 like a two
00:24:36.200 minute guided
00:24:37.080 meditation, just
00:24:38.220 to get us
00:24:38.660 there, after
00:24:39.760 you drink that
00:24:40.180 water, a
00:24:41.080 crackling water
00:24:41.680 bottle, to
00:24:42.300 ruin our
00:24:42.760 audio?
00:24:44.240 Okay, so I
00:24:44.860 go to Munindraji.
00:24:45.560 Munindraji, he
00:24:46.940 explains the
00:24:48.880 basics of
00:24:49.600 Vipassana
00:24:50.040 practice, which
00:24:51.440 is really
00:24:52.520 simple.
00:24:53.700 It's the
00:24:54.980 sitting meditation
00:24:55.640 part, is
00:24:56.920 sitting down,
00:24:58.180 starting with
00:24:59.280 attention on
00:25:00.640 the breath, and
00:25:02.700 just feeling
00:25:03.360 the sensations,
00:25:06.300 the experience of
00:25:06.920 the breath, and
00:25:08.280 being aware of
00:25:09.820 moment to
00:25:11.240 moment, whatever
00:25:11.880 arises, sensations
00:25:13.560 sensations in
00:25:14.580 the body,
00:25:15.100 thoughts,
00:25:15.540 emotions.
00:25:19.740 So should we
00:25:20.420 do a little
00:25:20.840 guided meditation?
00:25:21.900 Yeah, do
00:25:22.100 like a minute
00:25:22.820 or two.
00:25:23.400 Okay, so if
00:25:26.800 as you're
00:25:27.140 listening to
00:25:27.560 this, you
00:25:27.840 just take
00:25:28.460 some comfortable
00:25:29.440 posture, you
00:25:31.540 know, sitting
00:25:31.900 in a relaxed
00:25:32.500 way.
00:25:33.960 In Vipassana,
00:25:34.720 generally we
00:25:35.280 close our
00:25:35.760 eyes, but
00:25:36.340 can also be
00:25:37.680 done with the
00:25:38.120 eyes open.
00:25:38.600 So sit, and
00:25:41.580 you might
00:25:42.220 begin by
00:25:43.300 taking a
00:25:44.760 few deep
00:25:45.240 breaths, simply
00:25:46.760 as a way of
00:25:47.500 settling into
00:25:48.340 the awareness
00:25:48.900 of the body.
00:25:56.240 And let the
00:25:57.140 breath come to
00:25:57.820 its own
00:25:58.160 natural rhythm.
00:26:01.260 And simply
00:26:02.140 be aware or
00:26:03.380 feel the
00:26:04.020 sensations of
00:26:04.800 each breath, as
00:26:05.660 it comes into
00:26:06.220 the body, as
00:26:06.980 it leaves the
00:26:07.520 body.
00:26:08.600 it's not a
00:26:11.320 breathing
00:26:11.580 exercise, it's
00:26:12.480 an exercise in
00:26:13.360 awareness.
00:26:15.920 And so we
00:26:16.300 simply use the
00:26:17.060 breath as a
00:26:17.700 vehicle for
00:26:20.780 being aware.
00:26:27.400 As you feel
00:26:28.360 the breath
00:26:28.880 going in and
00:26:29.540 out, you may
00:26:31.220 become aware
00:26:31.820 of sounds,
00:26:32.980 background
00:26:33.300 sounds, or
00:26:34.060 loud sounds.
00:26:36.460 Then simply
00:26:37.520 notice
00:26:38.520 hearing, be
00:26:41.580 aware of the
00:26:42.060 experience of
00:26:42.780 hearing, how
00:26:44.320 the sound
00:26:44.740 comes and
00:26:45.240 goes.
00:26:48.580 Then returning
00:26:49.480 to the
00:26:49.860 breath.
00:26:56.440 You might
00:26:57.140 begin to feel
00:26:57.800 other sensations
00:26:58.580 in the body,
00:27:00.000 pressure of
00:27:00.900 tightness, of
00:27:01.620 tingling, of
00:27:02.200 vibration.
00:27:04.220 If any
00:27:04.900 sensation becomes
00:27:05.920 predominant,
00:27:07.460 become aware
00:27:08.060 of the
00:27:08.320 sensation.
00:27:10.860 Notice how
00:27:11.500 it changes.
00:27:13.780 When it's no
00:27:14.640 longer predominant,
00:27:15.920 again, return
00:27:16.520 to the
00:27:16.840 breath.
00:27:17.120 be aware of
00:27:33.000 any thoughts or
00:27:33.740 images that
00:27:34.400 appear in the
00:27:34.920 mind as you're
00:27:36.780 feeling the
00:27:37.240 in-breath and
00:27:37.840 out-breath.
00:27:38.380 thought may
00:27:42.800 come and
00:27:43.960 at first
00:27:44.740 may carry
00:27:45.360 you away,
00:27:46.000 lost in the
00:27:47.040 thought, but
00:27:48.600 at a certain
00:27:49.180 point you
00:27:49.680 become aware
00:27:50.360 that you're
00:27:50.760 thinking.
00:27:52.640 You might
00:27:53.100 make a soft
00:27:53.680 mental note,
00:27:54.420 thinking,
00:27:55.060 thinking,
00:27:56.500 to highlight
00:27:57.520 and emphasize
00:27:59.780 the awareness
00:28:01.900 of thought
00:28:02.580 rather than
00:28:03.580 being lost
00:28:04.120 in it.
00:28:04.460 And notice
00:28:10.640 what happens
00:28:11.260 to the
00:28:11.620 thought in
00:28:12.060 the moment
00:28:12.420 of awareness.
00:28:14.420 Does it
00:28:14.980 continue?
00:28:15.540 Does it
00:28:15.820 disappear?
00:28:24.200 When the
00:28:24.780 thought is
00:28:25.120 no longer
00:28:25.520 there, again,
00:28:26.220 return to
00:28:26.700 the breath
00:28:27.180 or bodily
00:28:27.780 sensations.
00:28:33.680 So in
00:28:34.260 this way we
00:28:34.960 are just
00:28:35.520 being mindful
00:28:36.260 moment after
00:28:36.960 moment of
00:28:38.160 whatever is
00:28:38.740 the predominant
00:28:39.640 experience in
00:28:41.240 the body,
00:28:41.840 in the mind.
00:28:45.840 And through
00:28:46.180 that awareness
00:28:46.780 we begin to
00:28:47.480 see the
00:28:47.840 changing nature
00:28:48.680 of all these
00:28:50.800 phenomena.
00:28:51.980 Things are
00:28:52.440 arising and
00:28:53.220 passing away.
00:28:58.960 And in the
00:28:59.800 awareness of
00:29:00.980 this process
00:29:02.060 of change,
00:29:02.780 the mind
00:29:04.680 no longer
00:29:05.160 clings.
00:29:07.760 And the
00:29:09.420 mind of
00:29:09.920 non-clinging,
00:29:10.900 of non-grasping
00:29:11.840 is really
00:29:12.840 the essence
00:29:14.460 of the
00:29:14.860 vipassana
00:29:15.280 practice.
00:29:18.060 Well, that's
00:29:18.740 great.
00:29:19.100 So a few
00:29:19.700 things to
00:29:20.020 point out
00:29:20.460 there.
00:29:20.820 One is
00:29:21.540 that is
00:29:22.280 the whole
00:29:22.620 practice.
00:29:23.540 In a
00:29:24.400 very short
00:29:25.380 span, you
00:29:26.960 can give
00:29:27.740 more or
00:29:28.540 less the
00:29:29.240 entire
00:29:29.540 practice.
00:29:29.980 There's
00:29:31.280 tweaking of
00:29:32.340 the dials
00:29:32.940 that you
00:29:33.160 may want
00:29:33.640 to emphasize
00:29:34.100 for someone
00:29:34.800 in the
00:29:35.720 middle of
00:29:36.000 a three-month
00:29:36.480 retreat or
00:29:37.060 given whatever
00:29:38.520 they happen to
00:29:39.060 be experiencing.
00:29:40.260 But in
00:29:40.760 seed form,
00:29:41.960 the whole
00:29:42.580 logic of
00:29:43.020 the practice
00:29:43.420 was just
00:29:43.980 given.
00:29:44.760 What's
00:29:45.100 unique about
00:29:45.780 vipassana,
00:29:46.360 I think the
00:29:46.700 reason why
00:29:47.300 it has been
00:29:48.120 adopted by so
00:29:49.280 many clinicians
00:29:50.220 and now
00:29:51.080 scientists who
00:29:51.700 are studying
00:29:52.100 meditation,
00:29:52.580 is that
00:29:53.160 one, it
00:29:54.880 doesn't
00:29:55.220 require that
00:29:56.360 you add
00:29:57.540 anything
00:29:58.160 strategically to
00:29:59.300 your experience.
00:29:59.940 You're not
00:30:00.440 repeating a
00:30:01.280 mantra, you're
00:30:01.840 not visualizing
00:30:02.560 something, you
00:30:03.680 don't have to
00:30:04.200 develop an
00:30:05.040 interest in or
00:30:06.060 sympathy for
00:30:07.040 historical figures
00:30:08.680 or imaginary,
00:30:09.880 potentially imaginary
00:30:11.020 figures, you
00:30:12.100 know, deities in
00:30:13.440 Hinduism or
00:30:15.300 Tibetan Buddhist
00:30:16.060 canon.
00:30:17.220 And so it
00:30:18.300 really is just
00:30:19.340 paying closer
00:30:20.360 attention to
00:30:20.980 whatever happens
00:30:21.920 to be happening
00:30:23.000 in that moment
00:30:24.080 in the mind
00:30:24.760 and body.
00:30:25.240 And the
00:30:25.480 other very
00:30:26.360 important feature
00:30:27.360 of it is that
00:30:28.000 it, in
00:30:28.880 principle, doesn't
00:30:29.980 exclude anything.
00:30:31.140 So you don't
00:30:32.200 need a quiet
00:30:32.860 room, you don't
00:30:33.760 need a comfortable
00:30:35.480 body.
00:30:36.000 In principle,
00:30:36.860 anything you
00:30:37.560 notice is as
00:30:38.200 good as any
00:30:38.640 other object of
00:30:39.400 meditation.
00:30:40.560 And that,
00:30:41.180 virtually every
00:30:41.860 other practice
00:30:42.520 can't meet
00:30:44.580 those two
00:30:45.080 tests.
00:30:45.720 So I think
00:30:46.240 it's perfectly
00:30:47.200 designed for
00:30:48.040 export to a
00:30:50.420 secular,
00:30:51.020 scientific,
00:30:51.520 audience because
00:30:52.640 it stands to
00:30:54.080 reason.
00:30:54.160 It's just
00:30:54.340 life.
00:30:54.900 It's just
00:30:55.160 life.
00:30:55.680 And if you
00:30:56.860 want to know
00:30:58.500 something more
00:30:59.380 about what
00:31:00.920 it's like to
00:31:01.500 be you and
00:31:02.160 what could
00:31:02.860 possibly be
00:31:03.840 discovered through
00:31:04.520 introspection,
00:31:05.900 it makes
00:31:06.600 sense to pay
00:31:07.700 attention.
00:31:08.360 Exactly.
00:31:08.680 All this is
00:31:09.440 is paying
00:31:09.700 attention.
00:31:10.400 When I first
00:31:11.340 met Muninjaji
00:31:12.660 in Balgaia when
00:31:14.080 I went to
00:31:15.000 meet him, he
00:31:15.880 said something
00:31:16.580 that was so,
00:31:18.600 the common
00:31:19.100 sense of it
00:31:19.820 was so striking
00:31:20.880 to me, it's
00:31:22.340 really what was
00:31:24.180 the big hook
00:31:24.620 for me.
00:31:25.440 He said, if
00:31:26.440 you want to
00:31:26.920 understand your
00:31:27.640 mind, sit
00:31:28.560 down and
00:31:28.960 observe it.
00:31:30.360 That was
00:31:30.940 well, there
00:31:31.500 was nothing to
00:31:32.120 believe, there
00:31:32.740 was nothing to
00:31:34.100 join.
00:31:35.240 It was just
00:31:35.880 that how else
00:31:37.240 can we understand
00:31:37.960 our minds
00:31:38.400 except by
00:31:39.160 observing.
00:31:40.300 So the
00:31:41.060 accessibility of
00:31:44.300 it and the
00:31:45.920 common sense of
00:31:46.780 it was so
00:31:47.620 striking to me.
00:31:48.500 of course, as
00:31:50.320 we do the
00:31:50.800 practice, there
00:31:53.280 are many, many
00:31:54.060 dimensions of
00:31:55.440 our experience
00:31:56.180 that reveal
00:31:56.860 themselves that
00:31:58.160 previously we
00:32:00.040 had not been
00:32:00.520 aware of.
00:32:01.460 So it goes
00:32:02.200 very deep
00:32:02.840 with tremendous
00:32:04.800 nuance.
00:32:05.500 But the
00:32:06.080 basic instruction
00:32:07.100 is this
00:32:09.600 simple.
00:32:10.440 Yeah.
00:32:10.960 It's always a
00:32:11.980 matter of not
00:32:13.740 being lost in
00:32:14.720 thought about
00:32:15.540 the experience,
00:32:16.860 noticing thought
00:32:17.660 as thought,
00:32:18.580 and noticing
00:32:19.460 the character
00:32:20.220 of experience
00:32:21.080 with interest
00:32:22.340 and without
00:32:23.540 grasping it
00:32:24.240 pleasant and
00:32:25.080 pushing away
00:32:25.640 the unpleasant.
00:32:26.240 It's just simply
00:32:27.240 always being aware
00:32:28.280 of what's
00:32:29.360 arising.
00:32:30.160 And I think
00:32:31.260 one thing that
00:32:32.740 people get
00:32:34.040 confused about
00:32:34.780 is obviously
00:32:36.460 there's a vast
00:32:38.460 amount that
00:32:39.300 the brain is
00:32:40.020 doing and
00:32:40.900 that therefore
00:32:41.920 the mind is
00:32:42.860 doing that
00:32:43.620 we're not aware
00:32:44.660 of and that
00:32:45.080 is not best
00:32:45.680 discovered
00:32:46.120 through
00:32:46.320 introspection.
00:32:47.120 Hence the
00:32:48.220 necessity of
00:32:48.820 having whole
00:32:49.760 branches of
00:32:50.380 science named
00:32:51.400 psychology and
00:32:52.240 neuroscience and
00:32:53.040 cognitive neuroscience
00:32:54.020 and cognitive
00:32:54.640 science and
00:32:55.240 linguistics and
00:32:55.960 everything else.
00:32:56.580 I'm following
00:32:57.180 the rules of
00:32:58.140 English grammar
00:32:58.800 more or less
00:32:59.780 effortlessly to
00:33:00.560 get to the
00:33:00.860 end of the
00:33:01.140 sentence.
00:33:01.860 I have no
00:33:02.280 idea how I'm
00:33:03.020 doing that and
00:33:03.800 when I fail to
00:33:04.400 do that I have
00:33:04.920 no idea why I
00:33:05.660 fail and the
00:33:06.740 best way to
00:33:07.400 discover those
00:33:08.260 details is not
00:33:09.100 by me paying
00:33:09.700 attention because
00:33:10.560 it's simply not
00:33:11.660 visible.
00:33:12.540 The data are
00:33:13.160 not there but
00:33:13.880 what mindfulness
00:33:15.000 is is a tool
00:33:16.300 to be as
00:33:18.480 aware as
00:33:19.360 possible of
00:33:21.160 the actual
00:33:22.100 character of
00:33:22.880 your subjective
00:33:23.440 experience.
00:33:24.220 It's not to
00:33:24.840 say this is the
00:33:25.300 best way to do
00:33:25.900 neuroscience.
00:33:26.440 It's the best
00:33:27.160 way to be
00:33:28.040 aware of what
00:33:28.920 it's like to
00:33:29.520 be you in
00:33:30.140 every moment.
00:33:31.340 And it's in
00:33:32.560 that context that
00:33:33.640 you can discover
00:33:34.380 whether or not
00:33:35.140 this thing you
00:33:36.080 call yourself
00:33:36.880 exists the way
00:33:38.460 you have always
00:33:39.500 thought it does.
00:33:40.160 and it's
00:33:41.720 also it's
00:33:44.220 very pragmatic
00:33:44.920 in another
00:33:45.460 sense because
00:33:46.380 one of the
00:33:47.240 things we
00:33:47.500 discover through
00:33:48.480 this simple
00:33:49.820 introspection and
00:33:51.720 observation is
00:33:53.080 to see what
00:33:54.400 patterns of
00:33:55.460 thought and
00:33:55.960 emotion create
00:33:57.880 suffering for
00:33:58.760 ourselves and
00:33:59.220 others and how
00:34:00.780 to be free of
00:34:01.420 that suffering.
00:34:02.840 And that's
00:34:03.540 really the
00:34:04.060 bottom line of
00:34:04.800 why to do
00:34:05.400 it.
00:34:05.600 It's a way
00:34:07.920 of coming
00:34:08.420 out of
00:34:09.700 suffering.
00:34:11.500 And we
00:34:12.980 become much
00:34:14.400 more expert
00:34:15.200 in terms of
00:34:16.780 understanding our
00:34:17.580 own minds and
00:34:18.140 our own
00:34:18.440 conditioning.
00:34:20.000 Because we
00:34:20.720 all have
00:34:21.280 established habit
00:34:22.560 patterns that
00:34:23.780 are not
00:34:24.100 helpful.
00:34:24.940 They're not
00:34:25.320 conducive to
00:34:26.060 peace.
00:34:26.760 Not conducive to
00:34:27.620 freedom.
00:34:28.340 We need to
00:34:28.820 learn about
00:34:29.200 that.
00:34:29.520 We need to
00:34:29.860 see how all
00:34:31.380 of that's
00:34:31.720 happening.
00:34:32.480 So take me
00:34:32.900 back to,
00:34:33.600 so now you're
00:34:33.980 with Manindra
00:34:34.980 in Bodh Gaya
00:34:35.800 and he's
00:34:37.740 making a lot
00:34:38.480 of sense and
00:34:39.160 has given you
00:34:39.600 a practice that
00:34:40.260 seems very
00:34:41.260 promising in
00:34:42.480 light of this
00:34:43.480 experience you
00:34:43.940 had in Thailand.
00:34:45.580 What is your
00:34:46.100 motivation at that
00:34:46.860 point?
00:34:47.080 Is your
00:34:47.200 motivation an
00:34:48.960 interest in the
00:34:50.560 nature of the
00:34:51.000 mind?
00:34:51.400 Is it getting
00:34:51.980 rid of
00:34:52.340 suffering that
00:34:53.200 you're finding
00:34:54.300 intolerable?
00:34:55.520 What's driving
00:34:56.320 you?
00:34:56.380 For me,
00:34:57.080 interest was
00:34:58.700 the key.
00:34:59.600 I didn't have
00:35:00.100 any obvious
00:35:01.380 suffering.
00:35:02.700 I was just
00:35:03.600 still very
00:35:04.980 young.
00:35:05.300 I was 23
00:35:06.180 years old.
00:35:08.520 I was just
00:35:09.460 incredibly
00:35:10.280 interested at
00:35:12.380 this point in
00:35:14.000 the mind and
00:35:14.880 exploring the
00:35:16.080 implications and
00:35:17.280 ramifications of
00:35:18.240 what this
00:35:18.540 experience was.
00:35:20.040 And upon this
00:35:21.400 further investigation,
00:35:22.860 I realized that
00:35:23.780 Buddhism really
00:35:24.680 explained it all.
00:35:27.100 This was the
00:35:28.840 most appropriate
00:35:30.180 context for the
00:35:32.040 exploration.
00:35:33.120 So at that
00:35:34.040 point, had you
00:35:34.580 gone and met
00:35:35.680 other gurus
00:35:38.040 apart from that
00:35:39.020 one Sikh?
00:35:39.880 Had you met
00:35:40.900 Muktananda or
00:35:42.440 Anandamayma?
00:35:43.480 No.
00:35:44.060 I had gone up
00:35:45.100 to the Himalayas
00:35:46.740 to try to find
00:35:47.720 some Tibetan
00:35:48.260 teachers since it
00:35:50.360 had been a
00:35:50.740 Tibetan text.
00:35:51.800 Right.
00:35:52.520 But it was in
00:35:53.220 the middle of
00:35:53.560 winter and it
00:35:54.740 was freezing cold
00:35:57.100 and the Tibetans
00:35:57.780 had all gone
00:35:58.200 south.
00:35:58.740 Right.
00:35:58.980 So nobody
00:35:59.780 was there.
00:36:02.020 No.
00:36:02.320 And so
00:36:02.560 Manindra was
00:36:03.120 really, aside
00:36:04.680 from that one
00:36:05.300 Ashram I had
00:36:06.400 gone to, he
00:36:07.520 was the first
00:36:08.000 teacher I met
00:36:08.580 and I feel
00:36:10.000 very fortunate
00:36:10.580 because it was
00:36:11.160 just exactly
00:36:11.980 what I was
00:36:12.440 looking for.
00:36:13.140 Right.
00:36:13.620 But you did
00:36:14.260 do some
00:36:14.580 practice in
00:36:15.440 another tradition
00:36:16.680 of Vipassana
00:36:17.280 because you
00:36:17.660 sat Goenka
00:36:18.460 retreats as well.
00:36:18.680 That was
00:36:18.900 after.
00:36:19.600 After, okay.
00:36:20.520 You get to
00:36:21.120 Bodhgaya, you
00:36:21.700 meet Manindra.
00:36:22.680 How long did
00:36:23.220 you stay in India
00:36:23.820 at this point?
00:36:24.140 That very
00:36:24.680 first time
00:36:25.400 I was in India.
00:36:28.920 I stayed for
00:36:29.840 about six weeks
00:36:31.280 or two months
00:36:31.980 and then I was
00:36:33.140 going back to
00:36:33.940 the States.
00:36:36.060 And when I
00:36:36.720 started, I had
00:36:38.820 no concentration.
00:36:41.240 So it's almost
00:36:42.340 like I was
00:36:42.860 practicing to
00:36:43.720 catch up to
00:36:44.780 the experience
00:36:45.420 I had had
00:36:45.940 because I
00:36:46.980 hadn't done
00:36:47.520 any of the
00:36:48.560 mental development
00:36:50.380 that in the
00:36:51.380 normal course
00:36:52.000 of things
00:36:52.480 would have
00:36:53.300 culminated in
00:36:54.160 that.
00:36:55.840 And so
00:36:56.320 when I
00:36:56.600 started to
00:36:57.160 actually...
00:36:58.460 So you
00:36:59.000 were not a
00:36:59.600 prodigy,
00:37:00.720 a meditational
00:37:01.620 prodigy from
00:37:02.460 the side of
00:37:03.040 actually doing
00:37:03.540 the practice?
00:37:04.020 Not at all.
00:37:04.720 In fact,
00:37:05.840 I think quite
00:37:07.140 the opposite.
00:37:08.120 So what's
00:37:08.540 interesting is
00:37:08.900 this breakthrough
00:37:09.680 cessation experience
00:37:10.960 as a starting
00:37:12.140 point, why
00:37:12.960 wouldn't that
00:37:13.340 have made
00:37:13.620 you a prodigy?
00:37:14.900 The only
00:37:15.820 prodigy
00:37:19.480 aspect that
00:37:20.960 I could
00:37:21.300 discern,
00:37:22.600 there was
00:37:23.000 no doubt.
00:37:24.280 Doubt about
00:37:25.500 the path
00:37:26.160 had been
00:37:26.620 eliminated
00:37:27.060 because I
00:37:28.220 had this
00:37:30.100 very clear
00:37:31.220 understanding
00:37:32.580 and realization
00:37:33.360 of the
00:37:34.540 selflessness
00:37:35.000 of it all.
00:37:36.420 But I saw
00:37:37.280 also that
00:37:37.840 there was
00:37:38.080 still a lot
00:37:38.520 more work
00:37:38.900 to do.
00:37:39.300 There was
00:37:39.500 still a lot
00:37:40.180 of conditioned
00:37:41.780 habit patterns
00:37:42.780 of mind
00:37:43.300 that were
00:37:45.280 still there.
00:37:46.160 So even
00:37:46.640 though I
00:37:46.900 knew they
00:37:47.140 were selfless,
00:37:49.060 I had that
00:37:49.820 basic understanding,
00:37:50.820 still.
00:37:53.100 And when
00:37:53.600 you sat
00:37:54.360 down to
00:37:54.680 meditate
00:37:55.140 with
00:37:55.920 menindra,
00:37:56.380 you're
00:37:56.520 spending
00:37:56.840 virtually all
00:37:57.980 your time
00:37:58.300 lost in
00:37:58.700 time because
00:37:59.200 you don't
00:37:59.380 have concentration.
00:38:00.120 Yeah,
00:38:00.440 no,
00:38:00.680 exactly.
00:38:01.180 And enjoying
00:38:01.940 it.
00:38:02.280 I thought it's
00:38:03.580 kind of a nice
00:38:04.260 way to spend
00:38:04.860 an hour.
00:38:07.020 Cross your
00:38:07.620 legs and think.
00:38:08.200 Yeah,
00:38:08.480 exactly,
00:38:09.040 which is
00:38:09.440 basically what
00:38:10.060 I did.
00:38:11.200 But I knew I
00:38:11.840 had found the
00:38:12.500 path made
00:38:13.720 sense to me,
00:38:14.520 even though
00:38:15.400 that it was
00:38:16.240 not easy.
00:38:17.220 But I didn't
00:38:17.740 have any doubt.
00:38:18.280 But I knew
00:38:18.880 this is what
00:38:19.840 I want to
00:38:20.160 do.
00:38:20.720 So I went
00:38:21.000 back to the
00:38:21.500 States,
00:38:22.360 worked for a
00:38:22.800 little while,
00:38:23.840 made a little
00:38:24.260 more money,
00:38:25.340 and just,
00:38:26.340 you know,
00:38:26.600 was anxious to
00:38:27.100 get back to
00:38:27.600 India and
00:38:28.120 to pursue it.
00:38:29.360 When I went
00:38:29.920 back, I got
00:38:31.000 inspired to
00:38:32.100 do the
00:38:33.240 meditation on
00:38:33.840 loving kindness.
00:38:35.880 Metta.
00:38:36.540 Metta.
00:38:37.540 That's the
00:38:38.340 Pali word.
00:38:40.720 I had just
00:38:41.520 come to a
00:38:42.060 realization that
00:38:43.000 I felt that
00:38:44.800 this was a
00:38:46.160 quality that
00:38:47.000 I could
00:38:48.360 well develop
00:38:49.160 in myself,
00:38:50.680 you know,
00:38:50.980 feel a little
00:38:51.560 lacking in
00:38:52.120 myself, and
00:38:52.580 I started
00:38:52.840 lacking in
00:38:53.360 the world.
00:38:54.480 So I was
00:38:55.020 very inspired.
00:38:57.000 Can you
00:38:57.220 just describe
00:38:58.040 what that
00:38:58.360 practice is?
00:38:58.980 You don't
00:38:59.120 need to do
00:38:59.540 a guided
00:38:59.960 method practice.
00:39:00.860 So the
00:39:01.240 way metta
00:39:03.000 is done,
00:39:03.920 or one way
00:39:04.660 it's done
00:39:05.060 traditionally,
00:39:05.940 is just to
00:39:06.560 think of
00:39:07.020 somebody,
00:39:07.620 you start
00:39:07.980 with a
00:39:08.640 benefactor,
00:39:09.280 somebody for
00:39:09.760 whom you
00:39:11.420 have good
00:39:12.640 feeling,
00:39:13.400 loving feeling,
00:39:14.600 and you
00:39:15.100 visualize them,
00:39:16.280 and repeat
00:39:18.160 certain phrases
00:39:19.760 of loving
00:39:20.500 kindness,
00:39:20.960 of well
00:39:21.300 wishing.
00:39:22.280 You know,
00:39:22.460 may you be
00:39:22.780 happy,
00:39:23.220 may you be
00:39:23.540 peaceful,
00:39:24.080 may you be
00:39:24.440 free of
00:39:24.900 suffering,
00:39:27.460 and it
00:39:27.980 really becomes
00:39:28.520 a mantra of
00:39:29.340 loving kindness,
00:39:30.460 you know,
00:39:30.720 where you're
00:39:31.000 repeating the
00:39:31.540 phrases,
00:39:32.420 directing it to
00:39:33.000 the image,
00:39:34.080 and then there's
00:39:34.920 a progression
00:39:35.440 going from
00:39:36.440 a benefactor
00:39:37.640 to a friend,
00:39:38.660 to somebody
00:39:39.040 who's neutral,
00:39:40.360 to somebody
00:39:40.880 who's difficult
00:39:41.600 for you,
00:39:42.700 and into all
00:39:43.200 beings.
00:39:43.620 So it's a
00:39:44.740 gradually
00:39:45.100 expanding field
00:39:46.360 of loving
00:39:47.600 kindness.
00:39:48.780 And unlike
00:39:49.460 mindfulness,
00:39:50.340 in this practice
00:39:51.000 there's a
00:39:51.800 target mental
00:39:52.700 state you're
00:39:53.300 trying to
00:39:53.920 kindle and
00:39:54.460 to hold
00:39:54.920 in the mind
00:39:55.620 and to
00:39:55.880 grow and
00:39:56.380 deepen,
00:39:56.820 and there's
00:39:57.640 a very
00:39:58.100 explicit goal
00:39:59.060 in terms of
00:39:59.740 the mental
00:40:00.240 state you're
00:40:00.660 trying to
00:40:00.920 produce.
00:40:01.040 Yes,
00:40:01.580 and actually
00:40:03.480 there are two
00:40:04.480 aspects to it.
00:40:06.040 One is the
00:40:06.820 development of
00:40:07.580 the feeling of
00:40:08.360 loving kindness,
00:40:09.460 but it is
00:40:11.040 also a
00:40:11.840 concentration
00:40:12.440 technique.
00:40:14.120 And so
00:40:14.400 what develops,
00:40:15.800 it can also
00:40:16.460 be used to
00:40:17.160 develop
00:40:17.640 concentration
00:40:18.440 as well as
00:40:19.540 the feeling
00:40:19.860 of loving
00:40:20.200 kindness.
00:40:21.520 And for
00:40:23.320 me,
00:40:23.720 so I was
00:40:24.820 doing this
00:40:25.440 loving kindness
00:40:26.120 meditation
00:40:26.600 intensively,
00:40:27.700 also for about
00:40:28.900 six weeks or
00:40:29.660 two months.
00:40:30.640 So this is
00:40:30.960 all day,
00:40:31.520 every day.
00:40:32.820 You're on
00:40:33.200 retreat.
00:40:33.780 I'm on
00:40:34.000 retreat,
00:40:34.640 yeah.
00:40:35.920 And it
00:40:37.820 was in
00:40:38.220 doing that
00:40:38.920 practice that
00:40:39.880 for the
00:40:40.480 first time
00:40:41.500 my mind
00:40:43.540 developed
00:40:44.760 some
00:40:45.920 concentration
00:40:46.480 and it
00:40:48.080 was quite
00:40:49.040 remarkable.
00:40:50.080 I mean,
00:40:50.360 it's a whole
00:40:51.180 new inner
00:40:52.480 space.
00:40:53.740 And before,
00:40:54.460 even though I
00:40:55.320 had no doubt
00:40:55.880 about the
00:40:56.260 practice and
00:40:57.960 I was committed
00:40:58.380 to doing it,
00:40:59.100 it was really
00:40:59.580 difficult.
00:41:01.000 You know,
00:41:01.240 it was work.
00:41:03.460 So your first
00:41:03.860 time you
00:41:04.980 had periods
00:41:06.080 that were
00:41:07.020 periods of
00:41:07.920 intensive practice
00:41:08.620 on retreat
00:41:09.160 doing
00:41:09.520 Vipassana
00:41:10.120 where you
00:41:11.160 hadn't
00:41:11.480 broken
00:41:11.740 through?
00:41:12.500 So your
00:41:12.920 first period
00:41:13.760 of retreat
00:41:14.140 was doing
00:41:14.540 metta?
00:41:15.700 No,
00:41:16.080 the first
00:41:16.860 six weeks
00:41:17.460 when I
00:41:17.780 first went
00:41:18.200 to Bodhgaya,
00:41:18.900 I was
00:41:19.540 doing
00:41:19.940 Vipassana.
00:41:21.000 Vipassana,
00:41:21.680 but for like
00:41:22.800 ten hours a
00:41:23.280 day,
00:41:23.880 and still
00:41:25.140 just feeling
00:41:25.640 the effects
00:41:26.340 of not
00:41:26.660 having
00:41:26.940 concentration.
00:41:27.580 Right,
00:41:28.200 right.
00:41:28.740 No,
00:41:29.000 I was
00:41:29.200 continually
00:41:29.780 trying to
00:41:30.320 bring my
00:41:30.620 mind back
00:41:31.140 and be
00:41:31.420 present.
00:41:32.100 It was
00:41:32.660 hard work,
00:41:33.560 but I
00:41:33.920 had no doubt
00:41:34.960 about it.
00:41:35.300 I wanted
00:41:35.580 to do it.
00:41:36.060 But you
00:41:37.140 were a
00:41:37.400 hard case
00:41:37.820 because many
00:41:38.600 many people
00:41:39.320 do a
00:41:40.520 ten day
00:41:41.060 or three
00:41:41.440 week
00:41:41.680 retreat
00:41:42.160 Vipassana
00:41:42.840 for the
00:41:43.100 first time
00:41:43.480 and at
00:41:44.200 some point
00:41:44.540 in that
00:41:44.820 retreat
00:41:45.200 really do
00:41:45.840 experience
00:41:46.340 kind of
00:41:47.000 effortless
00:41:47.520 concentration.
00:41:48.520 No,
00:41:48.780 I didn't.
00:41:49.240 And that's
00:41:49.900 why for
00:41:50.380 me now
00:41:50.920 as a
00:41:51.200 teacher,
00:41:52.220 I have
00:41:52.920 tremendous
00:41:54.040 confidence
00:41:55.320 in people
00:41:56.680 being able
00:41:57.600 to do it
00:41:58.340 because if
00:41:59.180 I could
00:41:59.460 do it,
00:42:00.220 anybody
00:42:00.520 could do
00:42:00.900 it because
00:42:01.540 my mind
00:42:01.960 was so
00:42:02.360 unconcentrated.
00:42:03.440 But the
00:42:04.120 metta
00:42:04.440 established
00:42:06.460 my mind
00:42:07.240 in a
00:42:07.580 degree
00:42:07.880 of
00:42:08.080 concentration.
00:42:09.400 Not
00:42:09.980 fantastic,
00:42:10.980 but sufficient.
00:42:13.060 And it
00:42:13.740 changed
00:42:14.000 everything
00:42:14.380 because once
00:42:15.540 the mind
00:42:16.020 develops a
00:42:17.660 certain level
00:42:18.520 of concentration,
00:42:19.640 then the
00:42:20.380 practice becomes
00:42:21.120 much more
00:42:21.580 effortless.
00:42:23.020 There's a
00:42:23.520 momentum to
00:42:24.580 the practice
00:42:25.180 and it
00:42:25.580 becomes much
00:42:26.080 more enjoyable.
00:42:27.860 And so doing
00:42:28.460 that period of
00:42:29.340 the loving
00:42:29.700 highness was
00:42:30.280 really important
00:42:31.480 for me in
00:42:32.880 the whole
00:42:33.180 trajectory.
00:42:34.440 And then
00:42:35.220 at a certain
00:42:36.020 point I
00:42:36.340 went back
00:42:36.720 to Vipassana
00:42:37.320 and then
00:42:38.560 just proceeded
00:42:39.240 to continue
00:42:39.860 with Vipassana
00:42:40.560 going through.
00:42:41.340 And how
00:42:41.680 long did you
00:42:42.140 stay in
00:42:42.620 India this
00:42:43.400 time?
00:42:44.300 I was in
00:42:45.020 India over
00:42:45.600 a seven-year
00:42:46.160 period.
00:42:47.320 And I was
00:42:48.000 back and
00:42:48.380 forth to the
00:42:48.860 States maybe
00:42:49.480 two times,
00:42:51.280 two or three
00:42:51.820 times in that
00:42:52.800 period for a
00:42:53.900 few months at
00:42:54.480 a time.
00:42:55.300 So I was
00:42:56.000 mostly in
00:42:56.920 India.
00:42:57.420 Mostly in
00:42:58.020 India for
00:42:58.240 about seven
00:42:58.680 years.
00:42:59.740 Mostly in
00:43:00.500 Bodhgaya?
00:43:01.880 Bodhgaya
00:43:02.320 during the
00:43:02.960 winter months
00:43:03.560 up in,
00:43:04.420 we would go
00:43:04.800 to the
00:43:05.040 mountains in
00:43:06.360 the summer
00:43:06.760 months.
00:43:07.500 Dalhousa
00:43:07.780 area?
00:43:08.100 Yeah, Dalhousa
00:43:08.980 is very,
00:43:09.920 very hot in
00:43:11.060 the plains in
00:43:12.100 the summer.
00:43:13.120 So during
00:43:13.640 this period,
00:43:14.080 so you're
00:43:14.360 basically in
00:43:15.160 India for
00:43:15.480 seven years,
00:43:16.920 and now this
00:43:17.680 is the period
00:43:18.060 where a real
00:43:18.860 influx of
00:43:19.420 Westerners is
00:43:20.900 now noticeable.
00:43:21.540 You've got
00:43:21.800 Ram Dass and
00:43:22.660 the whole party
00:43:24.220 coming through
00:43:24.980 Bodhgaya and
00:43:25.860 doing Goenka
00:43:26.500 retreats.
00:43:27.040 So you
00:43:29.340 studied with
00:43:30.500 Goenka as
00:43:30.980 well during
00:43:31.360 that period?
00:43:31.760 I did.
00:43:32.420 Starting in
00:43:33.160 1970, I
00:43:34.320 started doing
00:43:35.340 Goenka
00:43:35.720 retreats, which
00:43:36.840 was also very
00:43:37.420 powerful.
00:43:37.900 It was a very
00:43:38.340 powerful technique,
00:43:40.680 but I had a
00:43:41.660 major obstacle.
00:43:45.480 So when I
00:43:45.780 first started
00:43:46.220 doing Goenka,
00:43:47.200 which is a
00:43:47.840 body scanning.
00:43:49.180 So the
00:43:49.940 difference being
00:43:50.500 you don't
00:43:51.460 focus on the
00:43:52.780 breath as a
00:43:53.840 primary point
00:43:54.820 of contact,
00:43:55.700 you're actually
00:43:56.020 very strategically
00:43:57.260 move through
00:43:58.020 the body,
00:43:59.200 noticing sensation
00:44:00.160 from your toes
00:44:00.780 to your head
00:44:01.260 and back again.
00:44:02.280 Right.
00:44:03.080 He does
00:44:03.960 emphasize using
00:44:06.040 the breath for
00:44:06.660 the first few
00:44:07.540 days of a
00:44:08.860 10-day retreat.
00:44:09.760 For concentration.
00:44:10.380 For concentration.
00:44:11.340 And then it
00:44:11.720 opens up to
00:44:12.580 the body scan.
00:44:13.900 Right.
00:44:14.620 So when I
00:44:15.440 first started
00:44:16.600 doing that,
00:44:17.140 I'd already
00:44:18.080 been with
00:44:18.480 Meningrad for
00:44:19.040 a few years,
00:44:20.600 my body,
00:44:21.400 it totally
00:44:22.300 opened up,
00:44:22.900 just became a
00:44:23.460 body of light.
00:44:24.460 You know,
00:44:25.140 it was wonderful.
00:44:26.460 It was just
00:44:27.020 free flow of
00:44:28.940 energy.
00:44:29.460 And it was
00:44:29.860 Unpack that
00:44:31.460 phrase can sound
00:44:32.500 a little spooky,
00:44:33.100 body of light.
00:44:33.720 What do you mean
00:44:34.200 by body of light?
00:44:35.480 It's
00:44:35.800 You weren't
00:44:36.900 literally glowing.
00:44:38.960 From the
00:44:39.640 inside,
00:44:40.520 it felt like
00:44:42.080 it.
00:44:43.900 But usually
00:44:44.700 we experience
00:44:45.360 the body
00:44:46.020 somewhat dense
00:44:47.420 and solid.
00:44:48.120 but through
00:44:49.480 this
00:44:50.000 intensive
00:44:51.960 body scanning
00:44:53.040 up and
00:44:54.000 down,
00:44:54.280 we begin
00:44:54.520 to experience
00:44:55.080 the body
00:44:55.480 as an
00:44:56.920 energy field.
00:44:58.520 Right.
00:44:59.140 Meaning just
00:44:59.740 a field
00:45:01.420 of flowing
00:45:02.220 sensations
00:45:02.860 with no
00:45:04.260 solidity
00:45:04.800 anyplace.
00:45:06.280 And so it's
00:45:06.740 just this
00:45:07.120 free flow
00:45:07.760 of energy
00:45:08.320 that's
00:45:10.120 very enjoyable.
00:45:13.020 And so I
00:45:14.100 got into
00:45:14.520 that and
00:45:15.140 we just
00:45:15.860 spent hours
00:45:16.460 and hours
00:45:16.820 and hours
00:45:17.320 in that
00:45:18.980 very effortless.
00:45:21.380 Then I had
00:45:22.120 to go back
00:45:22.620 to the States.
00:45:24.000 Maybe I had
00:45:24.380 run out of money
00:45:24.960 or went back
00:45:26.180 for a couple
00:45:26.540 of months.
00:45:28.300 When I came
00:45:29.220 back to
00:45:30.980 India,
00:45:33.700 I had lost
00:45:35.180 my body
00:45:35.660 of light
00:45:36.200 and it had
00:45:37.520 become like
00:45:38.020 a body
00:45:38.420 of twisted
00:45:39.020 steel
00:45:39.620 and I
00:45:40.700 could not
00:45:41.540 recreate
00:45:42.280 that experience.
00:45:44.680 And for
00:45:45.400 two years,
00:45:46.460 I was
00:45:47.600 struggling
00:45:48.300 to get
00:45:48.960 that back.
00:45:50.120 Struggling
00:45:50.600 in the
00:45:51.100 context of
00:45:51.660 meditation
00:45:52.180 with Goenka
00:45:53.380 or with
00:45:53.920 Menindra?
00:45:54.440 No,
00:45:54.760 with Goenka.
00:45:55.340 So you spent
00:45:55.880 two years
00:45:56.420 doing the
00:45:57.040 Goenka style.
00:45:58.120 Oh,
00:45:58.300 more.
00:45:58.580 I spent
00:45:58.880 close to
00:45:59.980 four years,
00:46:00.700 three and a
00:46:02.100 half years
00:46:02.480 doing that
00:46:03.340 style.
00:46:04.640 So it had
00:46:05.460 started off
00:46:06.000 gloriously
00:46:06.600 and then it
00:46:08.040 crashed.
00:46:09.540 But of course
00:46:09.960 mindfulness,
00:46:10.560 the point
00:46:11.100 of the practice
00:46:11.860 is not to
00:46:12.700 recreate any
00:46:13.540 specific body
00:46:14.680 manifestation.
00:46:15.500 It was too
00:46:16.900 seductive.
00:46:17.720 It was too
00:46:18.180 seductive and
00:46:19.480 yeah, I was
00:46:22.000 just doing it
00:46:22.520 wrong.
00:46:24.180 And did Goenka
00:46:25.680 give you
00:46:26.060 instruction?
00:46:26.460 No, not
00:46:27.100 really.
00:46:27.680 It was because
00:46:28.900 there was a
00:46:29.420 lot of emphasis
00:46:30.060 in that
00:46:30.660 tradition to
00:46:31.360 get that
00:46:31.980 free flow.
00:46:32.780 So that was
00:46:33.260 in a way
00:46:33.760 the goal.
00:46:34.680 Right.
00:46:35.240 And so it
00:46:36.880 was exceedingly
00:46:39.100 frustrating.
00:46:39.920 Yeah.
00:46:40.160 It was the
00:46:40.520 worst two
00:46:41.060 years of my
00:46:41.580 practice.
00:46:42.180 Right.
00:46:43.780 And it
00:46:44.460 took me two
00:46:46.900 years to
00:46:47.820 realize that
00:46:49.260 it's not about
00:46:49.900 getting something
00:46:50.620 back but to
00:46:51.900 be with how
00:46:52.480 things are.
00:46:53.840 So finally,
00:46:54.720 it took a
00:46:56.300 long, long
00:46:57.000 time.
00:46:58.660 Finally, my
00:46:59.660 mind let go
00:47:00.460 of that
00:47:00.920 fixation and
00:47:03.720 just relaxed
00:47:04.500 into how
00:47:06.000 things were and
00:47:06.720 then there
00:47:08.540 started to be
00:47:09.020 movement again.
00:47:10.360 It never got
00:47:11.180 back to how
00:47:11.960 it was but
00:47:13.480 it didn't
00:47:13.880 matter.
00:47:14.820 You know,
00:47:15.040 there was a
00:47:15.520 different kind
00:47:16.220 of flow.
00:47:19.820 So that was
00:47:20.340 its own
00:47:21.100 learning in
00:47:22.880 terms of
00:47:23.520 understanding
00:47:24.660 what the
00:47:24.980 practice really
00:47:25.620 is about
00:47:26.100 and what
00:47:27.020 it's not
00:47:27.280 about.
00:47:27.300 That's a
00:47:27.800 point of
00:47:28.160 interest to
00:47:28.720 me which
00:47:29.060 we've argued
00:47:29.740 about in
00:47:30.540 other contexts
00:47:31.720 but it's
00:47:32.780 interesting the
00:47:33.220 way in which
00:47:34.080 the logic of
00:47:35.680 a practice
00:47:36.320 explicit or
00:47:37.660 implicit can
00:47:38.860 lead you to
00:47:39.980 practice in a
00:47:41.040 way that is
00:47:41.960 just not
00:47:42.500 profitable.
00:47:43.940 There's a
00:47:44.800 very classic
00:47:46.080 progression in
00:47:49.060 what are called
00:47:49.700 the stages of
00:47:50.600 insight.
00:47:50.940 So there's a
00:47:52.160 very classic
00:47:52.820 unfolding of
00:47:54.120 different
00:47:54.400 experiences where
00:47:56.460 people at a
00:47:57.220 certain stage
00:47:58.120 have experiences
00:48:00.160 of tremendous
00:48:01.300 rapture and
00:48:02.160 clarity and
00:48:02.820 concentration and
00:48:04.020 all the things
00:48:05.200 that we're
00:48:07.060 practicing to
00:48:07.740 develop.
00:48:08.660 At this
00:48:09.660 particular stage
00:48:11.140 they're called
00:48:12.320 corruptions of
00:48:13.180 insight because
00:48:14.420 the tendency is
00:48:16.980 for almost
00:48:17.680 everybody in one
00:48:18.660 way or another
00:48:19.260 to get attached
00:48:20.320 to them.
00:48:21.260 It's such a
00:48:22.020 remarkable shift
00:48:23.320 from anything
00:48:24.880 that's happened
00:48:25.420 before that
00:48:27.100 when you're
00:48:27.600 experiencing that
00:48:28.600 it just feels
00:48:29.800 you've arrived.
00:48:30.600 It has the
00:48:31.460 flavor of
00:48:32.020 enlightenment.
00:48:32.520 It seems like
00:48:33.100 this is why I
00:48:34.520 was practicing
00:48:34.920 in the first
00:48:35.280 place.
00:48:35.540 I want to
00:48:35.760 feel this way.
00:48:36.400 Exactly.
00:48:37.060 It's called
00:48:37.640 pseudo-nirvana.
00:48:40.300 It takes some
00:48:41.660 real guidance at
00:48:42.540 that point to
00:48:44.380 simply be
00:48:46.380 mindful of
00:48:47.320 those states
00:48:47.820 as other
00:48:49.520 changing
00:48:50.600 conditions and
00:48:51.540 not to be
00:48:51.940 attached to
00:48:52.440 it.
00:48:53.340 The very
00:48:53.880 next stage
00:48:55.200 of insight
00:48:55.860 is called
00:48:57.100 seeing what
00:48:58.320 is the path
00:48:58.940 and what is
00:48:59.300 not the path.
00:49:01.020 That's an
00:49:01.400 important juncture
00:49:02.120 because until
00:49:03.200 that point we
00:49:04.720 think that having
00:49:05.600 those experiences
00:49:06.580 is the path.
00:49:08.380 We have to
00:49:09.460 really go through
00:49:10.180 that and see
00:49:11.700 that it's not
00:49:12.240 the path.
00:49:12.880 That's just
00:49:15.020 experiences along
00:49:16.060 the way and
00:49:17.680 that the
00:49:18.020 whole path is
00:49:18.920 always about
00:49:19.880 letting go.
00:49:20.900 It's not about
00:49:21.420 holding on.
00:49:22.940 Yeah.
00:49:23.760 And whatever
00:49:24.280 is fundamental
00:49:25.480 to the nature
00:49:26.200 of mind has
00:49:27.400 to be
00:49:28.080 discoverable in
00:49:29.500 the context
00:49:30.200 of whatever
00:49:30.940 experience happens
00:49:32.680 to be present.
00:49:33.400 If the thing
00:49:34.000 you're taking
00:49:35.140 to be significant
00:49:35.840 is there by
00:49:36.900 virtue of having
00:49:38.180 some contingent
00:49:39.540 conditions in
00:49:40.940 place, then
00:49:41.560 obviously it's
00:49:42.220 vulnerable to
00:49:42.800 to change.
00:49:43.980 Exactly.
00:49:45.840 I like to
00:49:46.980 say in the
00:49:47.720 teaching, in
00:49:49.180 guiding people
00:49:50.540 through situations
00:49:51.660 like this, if
00:49:53.060 freedom is
00:49:53.780 dependent on
00:49:54.520 conditions, it's
00:49:55.360 not freedom.
00:49:58.040 Just take me
00:49:58.880 back to that
00:49:59.420 period so that
00:50:00.200 now you're
00:50:00.980 an in-boat guy,
00:50:02.080 you've been there
00:50:02.300 for years, now
00:50:04.360 you're just
00:50:04.940 practicing in a
00:50:05.700 Buddhist context.
00:50:06.460 You're not
00:50:06.720 going to be
00:50:08.140 poor Lodago
00:50:09.560 or an under
00:50:10.240 my mar.
00:50:10.680 If you'd
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00:50:40.680 Thank you.
00:50:42.040 Thank you.