Making Sense - Sam Harris - #409 — ＂More From Sam＂： Religion, Deportations, Douglas Murray vs. Rogan, & Bill Maher's Dinner with Trump

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if

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00:00:45.260 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Today I'm answering some more questions

00:00:51.480 that were submitted by subscribers on my Substack page, and discussing some current events. Once

00:00:57.980 again, the voice you're hearing on the other end is that of my manager and business partner,

00:01:02.160 Jaron Lowenstein. We're hoping to continue this series of episodes. So if you're a subscriber

00:01:07.260 to the podcast, you can submit topics over on Substack. And if you're not a subscriber,

00:01:13.440 you can become one at samharris.org slash subscribe.

00:01:18.460 Okay, Sam, we have a lot to get into today. And obviously I want to get your thoughts on

00:01:28.960 Douglas Murray, our buddy, who appeared on Joe Rogan's podcast last week. Feels like it was a

00:01:33.780 month ago. I want to also ask you about the financial luminaries who have praised the handling

00:01:39.020 of Trump's tariffs. We'll get into that as well.

00:01:41.980 The art of the deal. Bill Ackman, the art of the deal.

00:01:44.320 The art of the deal. We will also discuss our friend Bill Mars. We're going to get into all

00:01:51.280 that, Sam. I could just tell you're ready to go. We're going to discuss our friend Bill

00:01:54.900 Mars' review of his White House dinner with Trump. Hold, hold. And discuss deportations and more.

00:02:00.760 But before we get into that, I want to get your reactions on some of the questions we got over

00:02:04.600 at your Substack page. These aren't the exact questions, but I put them together to represent

00:02:10.160 the gist of them. All right?

00:02:12.380 Okay.

00:02:13.180 Here we go. Scott Galloway has been vocal about his concerns for the well-being of young men.

00:02:18.740 Jonathan Haidt, vocal about his concerns for the well-being of teenagers, predominantly girls.

00:02:23.440 Obviously, social media plays a huge role in this. But do you think the erosion of religion plays

00:02:28.600 a role here as well? And what are you doing to protect your daughters from social media?

00:02:34.040 And how are you providing a sense of community for them that is lost without religion?

00:02:38.240 Well, we've kept them off social media. They're exposed to the internet, obviously,

00:02:43.060 and they watch a lot of YouTube. And so they're getting fed by the algorithm. So I mean, there's

00:02:48.560 only so much control you can exert there. I think our oldest didn't get a smartphone until she was

00:02:54.840 in seventh grade. And that was really just kind of born of a necessity to get in touch with her.

00:02:59.740 And she also would have been the last kid without a smartphone at that point. I think we'll hold that

00:03:04.220 same policy for our youngest. But they don't have any public-facing social media experience. Even

00:03:10.300 our 16-year-old now doesn't. I think that's true. I think she has some private thing with her friends,

00:03:16.640 right? I think they use Snapchat, which is not now. Now I'm going to sound like a boomer.

00:03:21.360 I'm not quite a boomer. But I think it was Snapchat, at least for a while, and those videos disappear.

00:03:27.960 But again, it's all within nothing public-facing, or at least not to my knowledge. I could be one of

00:03:33.040 those parents who's being carefully deceived, and it could get ugly out there. But the intention was

00:03:39.480 to keep it from them as long as possible, and also to educate them in how bewildering and soul-crushing

00:03:46.300 it can be to have your self-worth anchored to the feedback you get in those channels. And so they're

00:03:54.540 aware of the social problem, and they have not yet been, again, to my knowledge, personally exposed to

00:04:00.300 any of it. And they've seen some friends have crazy experiences, some friends with public-facing

00:04:06.820 YouTube channels, et cetera, that just look like brain damage for the whole family. So there's that.

00:04:12.160 So I think it's, you know, I definitely take Jonathan Haidt's instruction here to the degree

00:04:18.040 that we can. We don't have a school, unfortunately, that will ban phones or demand that phones stay in

00:04:24.880 lockers for the whole day, though I think we've, some parents have tried to make it that. I think

00:04:30.640 that's Jonathan's recommendation. As far as religion and its absence being consequential for

00:04:38.220 a generation, I'm not so sure how to parse all that. I mean, obviously, the trend towards secularization

00:04:44.500 in America has been pretty strong in the last 20 years, and the trend toward atheism, too,

00:04:51.760 has been pretty strong. I mean, the Pew data on that suggests that, you know, the secularists and

00:04:55.940 the atheists have been winning, notwithstanding the claims that there's been a pendulum swing back,

00:05:01.740 a la Jordan Peterson and others making those noises. And I mean, I do think, frankly, that

00:05:08.340 secular culture needs some things that it doesn't have, right? We don't have a sense of the sacred 0.99

00:05:15.260 that is not embarrassing or, you know, just got a new age and its own version of irrational. So

00:05:22.540 the piecemeal efforts people have been using to be spiritual but not religious often don't make a

00:05:28.460 ton of sense. And as you know, over at Waking Up, we're trying to present what we think does make

00:05:32.980 sense. I think, you know, I think you want a contemplative life, you want community, you want

00:05:37.340 strong ethical instruction, you want all those things that people have traditionally associated with

00:05:42.120 religion. And secular culture doesn't really offer institutions and off-the-shelf versions of that 0.61

00:05:50.120 that you can readily point to. And I think many of us are just kind of cobbling that together,

00:05:54.800 you know, ourselves, and it's a work in progress.

00:05:58.360 Yeah. I mean, I've found it to be a big void of my life, having grown up religious and having a

00:06:01.920 great sense of community. I no longer wanted the thou shall nots and the religious aspects, 1.00

00:06:07.540 but I sorely still today miss community. I've since been able to make it up in a number of ways

00:06:13.140 with, you know, guy groups and other projects, but I felt for a long time that I was, I had

00:06:19.400 wandered out into the desert alone. And I have long since wished there was some version that's not

00:06:26.180 dorky of a community that could come together around a set of ideas. And you're right, maybe Waking Up

00:06:31.120 will be one of those places that'll establish that one day. Well, speaking of that.

00:06:35.480 Yeah. I mean, people have, you know, meditation groups and book clubs and, you know, we've launched,

00:06:40.160 as you know, the digital version of community and people are doing some of that stuff out there in

00:06:45.040 real life. So, you know, I certainly encourage that. But again, speaking much more widely for

00:06:50.420 the culture, it's clear that being really into sports or, you know, into entertainment or, you know,

00:06:56.980 guys groups or whatever it is, it's not the same thing as having an amazing building,

00:07:02.900 you know, in the center of town that everyone goes to on Sunday. And it's been that way for a

00:07:08.280 century, right? And that's just not the same thing. Yeah. And maybe this is related to your

00:07:13.460 meditation practice, but how do you stay balanced with all the stuff that creeps into your life from 0.88

00:07:19.140 the podcast, the political bullshit and whatnot? And really, before you answer this, I think what

00:07:23.380 many are looking for is a way to stay sane today while surrounded by many people in their lives with

00:07:28.640 whom they disagree? Well, I, you know, I tend to pay attention to what I'm doing with my mind. And

00:07:34.460 if I'm feeling unhappy or irritable or something, you know, a mindfulness alarm tends to go off. And

00:07:42.220 if it doesn't go off, if I'm in the presence of Anika, my wife, her alarm will go off and she'll say, 0.99

00:07:48.980 you know, what the fuck is wrong with you? And that'll get my attention. So, yeah, I mean, I just, 0.98

00:07:54.340 you know, I, this is just the universal solvent for unhappiness may pay attention to what you're

00:07:59.460 doing with your attention and notice the consequences. Yeah. Well, I know that's the

00:08:04.780 sort of the normal prescription, but what about today with how divided we are and many, many people,

00:08:11.180 including myself, having people in my family that wildly disagree about politics and both sides seem

00:08:17.820 to be concerned about the other. How do you come together? I've, I've found a way to find joy in that,

00:08:23.200 but how, how have you found that? I mean, not to out you, but your two best friends are MAGA or MAGA

00:08:28.420 adjacent. And so how have you been able to succeed? I watch you navigate that beautifully. How do you

00:08:34.520 advise for maybe others? Maybe you can share how you're able to do that so well? Well, I think you'd

00:08:40.820 have to keep your priorities straight. I mean, there are certain relationships that, you know,

00:08:44.800 you are not going to sacrifice to the, um, the gods of politics and political disagreement,

00:08:51.320 right? So you just, you just know going in that you, you have to figure out how to navigate this.

00:08:57.260 Other relationships, frankly, I'm happy to sacrifice. You know, this is what I've run into.

00:09:01.920 We've, we've seen that. Yeah. I mean, we've run, this is what I've run into with people who

00:09:06.500 have public facing platforms. Some of them have much bigger platforms than I do. And I think they're

00:09:12.360 doing immense harm in the world. Right. So I'm in those cases, it's a different ethical responsibility,

00:09:18.020 right? That when the conversation breaks down there, it matters not just for the relationship,

00:09:23.340 but for my sense of, again, kind of a civic responsibility, right? So I mean, I think Elon

00:09:30.580 has completely lost his way. I think he's behaving like a psychopath. He used to be a friend. He's a 0.98

00:09:36.060 friend no longer because he's behaving like a psychopath, not merely interpersonally with me.

00:09:41.240 I mean, that, that might be a survivable event if it could be talked about, but at scale, you know,

00:09:47.700 I mean, he's doing more harm than almost anyone on planet earth to our culture is. I mean, I would

00:09:52.720 certainly defend that thesis to anyone who might be rolling their eyes or throwing their brow when

00:09:58.680 they hear me say it like that. I just think it's absolutely awful what he's doing. He's in second

00:10:02.620 place to Trump and sometimes not even in second place. Right. But personally, you know, I have,

00:10:07.600 you know, some very close friends who voted for Trump. The thing I don't really get in those

00:10:12.000 collisions when we do talk about politics is a real case on the other side. And I've spoken about

00:10:18.980 this. I bash these guys, not in name, but in fact, on several podcasts, because they're my canaries in

00:10:25.300 the coal mine or they're my lab rats who I keep returning to. And I keep noticing things about the

00:10:32.540 ordinary Trump supporter at this moment in, in Trump's despicable career, which is that they don't

00:10:38.220 have a lot to say in defense of Trump and Trumpism and what they do say. And what other people say,

00:10:44.860 certainly in the media, I mean, it's not, I'm not now not talking about friends, but just the kinds of

00:10:49.120 people who step forward to defend Trump tends to be dishonest or delusional. Right. I mean, you know,

00:10:55.620 the, the 4D chess people. Right. Right. So anyway, we'll talk about that, but like the case to be

00:11:00.620 made for Trump at the moment is, um, most often made by simply averting one's eyes and saying,

00:11:09.000 you don't want to talk about politics and let's wait and see what happens. Right. That's basically

00:11:13.300 the holding pattern. Right. Well, aside from that, so basically you just figured out how to prioritize

00:11:18.320 your relationships over politics when it, when it matters. And you say, look, I love you guys.

00:11:22.880 We're going to stop short here and we'll pick it up and talk about something else.

00:11:26.840 Yeah. And I'm confident that when something sufficiently salient comes around, I mean,

00:11:31.360 there's actually been cases of this already where something that's truly indefensible, that

00:11:35.520 is not also not debatable. Right. And there's that Venn diagram is a little hard to, it's a little hard

00:11:41.680 to clarify for people, but because the, the, the number of things that I think Trump has done or said

00:11:47.120 and done that are totally indefensible and totally disqualifying in a president, uh, many of them,

00:11:52.880 it seems I, although I don't really see it this way, it seems many are open to alternate

00:11:57.760 interpretations. So, you know, who knows if it was really that way, there's another way of seeing it,

00:12:02.620 blah, blah, blah. January 6th was just a demonstration that got out of hand. I mean,

00:12:08.020 didn't you see the footage of the cops actually letting the, letting them in the building? What

00:12:11.300 was that about? Maybe it was a false flag operation. Uh, thank you, Tucker Carlson. When you find

00:12:16.880 the stuff that's really not debatable and also indefensible, then I, I'm confident that, you know,

00:12:23.920 that the people we're talking about will, will see those situations as I do. Right. Well, we'll see

00:12:29.540 what that line is. I know you've asked a number of times, what's it going to take? You know, how far

00:12:33.560 does one have to go before they, uh, have regret their decision? I'm confident we will get there at

00:12:40.000 this rate. We're going to get there probably in a week. Yeah. When we all move out and do a, uh,

00:12:44.720 shelter together. Yeah. I don't know what country will have us at this point. So. All right. Moving

00:12:50.820 on to this, just as a question that you said, I think it was the most popular question presented

00:12:55.080 to you after you wrote your book lying, but I'm just going to reframe it here because I saw a lot

00:13:00.400 of these comments coming in. So I find it annoying that my kids believe in Santa or the tooth fairy,

00:13:05.720 but what's the big deal with people lying to their kids about stuff like that? Isn't it good to

00:13:10.820 engage in fantasy play? What's wrong with lying to your kids about Santa? Well, first, the surprising

00:13:15.600 thing is I, and I really didn't anticipate this until I wrote the book and published it and it just

00:13:21.060 came back at me. I never anticipated it is that I heard from many, many people who remember what it

00:13:27.220 was like to discover that their parents had lied to them about Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, most often

00:13:33.420 Santa Claus. And they considered it a moral injury. They were just horrified to discover that an

00:13:42.600 elaborate lie could be told like that. And they wondered what other lies had been told in the

00:13:47.660 family. And in fact, also I heard from fundamentalist Christians who I think I have this right, would say

00:13:54.160 that their family never lied about Santa because they didn't want, they didn't want any suspicion

00:14:00.740 generated that they could be lying about Jesus, right? Like that, there was cross-talk between the

00:14:06.720 real religious beliefs there and the fun fake ones. Anyway, so I heard from people that I didn't even

00:14:12.780 know existed who actually had been traumatized by discovering such an elaborate lie in the household.

00:14:19.020 But yeah, you know, my ethics around lying were established clearly enough, early enough, so long

00:14:24.000 before we had kids that it was just clear we weren't going to lie to them about Santa or the tooth fairy or

00:14:28.760 anything else. And I would just point out, nobody is tempted to lie about Halloween or, you know,

00:14:34.820 Middle Earth or Harry Potter or anything else that's super fun for kids to fantasize about.

00:14:40.960 And, you know, you could suspect that it might be a little more fun if you lied about those things,

00:14:45.420 if you said, you know, Frankenstein was real or vampires are real or Dumbledore is real. But I mean,

00:14:50.320 that's just not, we're not tempted to do that and there's no problem. And so I can assure you

00:14:56.560 Christmas is a ton of fun for kids if you never lie to them about it.

00:15:01.120 Right. Yeah. I mean, I think more, I think people more use the lie of Santa today for the invisible

00:15:07.880 babysitter for the, you get a month or two to hang that over your kids' heads to get them to behave

00:15:14.400 better. Listen, you know.

00:15:16.120 But they behave just fine if you tell them there are real consequences, even Christmas-shaped

00:15:21.840 consequences to, you know, their misbehavior. I mean, you could say, listen, if you really want that

00:15:26.000 stuff for Christmas, you know, stop doing that. And it would be the same message, right? I just

00:15:31.120 think it's, it does introduce a, perhaps a weird social experiment in the school. If your kid is

00:15:38.340 the only kid who knows the truth about Santa and they're surrounded by dummies who believe, but

00:15:42.900 flip it around and ask yourself, do you want your kid to be the last kid in second grade or whatever

00:15:47.960 grade it is to believe in Santa and to be teased by their friends? You don't want that, right? So at what

00:15:53.140 point do you want them to be disabused of this fiction? So you want them to be the last boy or

00:15:58.820 girl standing because that's embarrassing. So why not be the first, right? Or the second? 0.61

00:16:05.480 I like it. I think it's great. Anybody who has more questions, please come over to the Substack

00:16:08.940 page and you can ask and we'll try to answer those for next time. But all right, it's time to get back

00:16:15.240 to our friend Douglas Murray, who by the way, will be on the podcast with you later this week,

00:16:19.400 promoting his book called Democracies and Death Cults. And I'm sure you'll be discussing his

00:16:24.300 appearance on the Rogan podcast, which was incredible. So we don't have to go crazy here,

00:16:30.460 but I certainly want to hear your reactions and see if you have anything to say, which I know you do.

00:16:37.000 Yeah. Well, I mean, the most incredible thing for me was the, the result of it, right? I mean,

00:16:42.780 Douglas was great. You know, I, I think I might disagree with a couple of things he said and,

00:16:47.580 and I think I might've taken a slightly different line in that conversation, but

00:16:51.180 in many respects, he was much better than I would have been in having that conversation too. So there's

00:16:57.300 just, I thought he was spectacular. And yet it was obvious from the beginning that the conversation

00:17:03.500 was going to fail as an intervention because of who Joe and Dave are, because of the audiences

00:17:09.740 they've cultivated. If you look at the response, I mean, I, I, I haven't done this in recent days,

00:17:14.000 but in the immediate aftermath, I think when the, when it had some hundreds of thousands of views

00:17:19.880 on, on YouTube, I looked at the comments and, you know, at that time, maybe things have changed.

00:17:25.480 I can't imagine, but it was a hundred percent. I mean, not even 99%, a hundred percent against

00:17:30.940 Douglas, right? Douglas was just a pompous asshole, just arguing from authority. There's no value in 1.00

00:17:37.380 what he said. I can't believe Joe even had him on. Dave Smith's a genius, right? I mean,

00:17:42.100 that was the center of narrative gravity there. Obviously all of that is completely delusional

00:17:47.580 and symptomatic of the problem that we have in our culture and the problem that, that Joe has

00:17:53.780 created for himself over there with his immense audience, right? I mean, Joe has cultivated that

00:17:58.000 audience. Joe is in some sense, a part of his audience, right? He's, um, you know, his reaction

00:18:03.240 to Douglas in the moment, when Douglas was trying to perform an intervention on him, pointing out the

00:18:08.080 obvious fact that he has played footsie with, uh, some very dangerous conspiracy theories.

00:18:13.460 Um, he has had people like Daryl Cooper on the podcast and not had the searching conversation

00:18:19.060 that was ethically necessary in the aftermath of Daryl Cooper's appearance on Tucker Carlson.

00:18:23.000 He didn't, you know, he can use the phrase sunlight is the best disinfectant and perhaps it is,

00:18:28.820 but he brought none of it to that conversation. And he brings none of it to any conversation

00:18:33.420 where he hasn't done his homework in advance. So as to detect the lies and the delusions of his

00:18:40.120 guests, right? He didn't do it with Trump. He doesn't do it with people like RFK Jr. I mean,

00:18:44.640 he just said he, which ironically, he did it here with Douglas, who's a, who's an expert. So he brought

00:18:49.320 on a non-expert to counterbalance him. Listen, if you get across the table from Joe and you don't have

00:18:55.420 your facts straight about MMA, or you're going to say something bad about marijuana, he's going to crush

00:19:01.200 you, right? He'll crush you in five seconds and he will never let up until you start making sense.

00:19:06.360 And if you don't, the conversation's over, right? I mean, maybe he'll change the subject politely,

00:19:11.000 but you know, you're never coming back and he will make no secret of the fact that he thinks 1.00

00:19:16.000 you're a moron, right? He doesn't do that when Daryl Cooper, the podcast host and amateur historian who 0.99

00:19:24.940 he really admires gets on there and starts spouting David Irving's fake Holocaust history

00:19:31.740 because he doesn't know that he's doing that, right? He hasn't prepared himself to do that. And

00:19:36.400 he doesn't see the liability of talking to a entirely self-taught, you know, enthusiast of

00:19:42.660 taboo history and not being prepared to push back against it. Again, it's easy to see the source of the

00:19:49.600 confusion because there's this basic assumption that there can be nothing wrong in having, quote,

00:19:57.920 good faith, good-natured conversation with somebody and just getting their view of the world, right?

00:20:04.660 What could be wrong with that? And I mean, Lex Friedman, while he has a slightly different

00:20:08.540 approach, I mean, I criticized Lex in the last podcast too, he was very annoyed to be wrapped up

00:20:14.400 in the same sentence with Joe. And perhaps that was to some degree unfair because my gripe with Lex

00:20:19.460 is slightly different. I mean, it's not that Lex does no preparation. I mean, he obviously does.

00:20:24.200 And I think he tweeted, he got on Twitter and read me the riot act and said he does more preparation

00:20:28.780 than 99% of journalists. I mean, we might doubt that, but it's just that what he doesn't do with

00:20:34.680 all that preparation is actually effectively push back against people who really need to hit a brick

00:20:41.320 wall at that point of the conversation. He platforms people he shouldn't platform. You know,

00:20:45.780 Kanye West is the example I really publicly whinged about.

00:20:50.440 But even when he pushes back, even if he pushes back with words and you ask questions,

00:20:54.340 if this was the podcast election, what that really meant was over time, a few hours, you humanize

00:20:59.660 somebody. And if the vibes are good, even if you're pushing back and you're hanging out,

00:21:04.580 sitting across from one another, the energy is going to be such that the audience is led to believe

00:21:09.700 that this can't be too bad of a person, no matter what you say. And so there's some responsibility

00:21:14.960 there that even if you're going to have journalistic integrity and say, you know, push back wherever

00:21:20.740 is necessary, it's really hard when you're smiling and giggling in between questions and there's nice

00:21:27.000 moments to be had. Even if you say, look, let's just agree that this was a bad idea. And I think

00:21:32.720 you lied on that one or whatever. They're going to find something two minutes later because it's just

00:21:37.020 to hang. And those hangs are effective in, uh, sane washing or humanizing people.

00:21:43.000 Yeah. You really can't have it both ways. I mean, many of these podcasters celebrated the 2024

00:21:49.200 election as the podcast election, but that, that was really just to claim that these podcasts had been

00:21:55.780 instrumental in changing public opinion, right? I mean, they, in getting Trump elected, people saw

00:22:01.920 his humanity. They saw he's a real guy who can just hang and who can talk about anything. He's not

00:22:06.620 afraid, but, but Kamala Harris is afraid to go on Rogan's podcast. And that was scored against her 0.99

00:22:11.900 pretty heavily, right? She's just got canned talking points and she's so terrified to touch 1.00

00:22:16.080 all the third rails, you know, set up by the woke intelligentsia that, you know, she's going to be

00:22:21.120 tongue-tied on, on any topic that would otherwise humanize her. Uh, she can't even risk turning on the 0.93

00:22:26.460 microphone with someone like Joe. To say it was the podcast election is to say that those conversations

00:22:31.000 mattered, right? And they did matter. I totally agree. It was the podcast election. And so it mattered

00:22:36.340 that none of these guys, not Joe, not even Lex, though he actually did try a little bit in his

00:22:41.580 interview with Trump, not Andrew Schultz, not the all-in guys, not Theo Vaughn, right? No one did what

00:22:48.980 any sane and responsible journalist would have done, would have had to have done in one of those

00:22:54.620 encounters, which is to push back against Trump's odious, divisive, dangerous lies, right? Which are

00:23:04.380 well-established. This is not my opinion. This is not a topic about which there can be a credible

00:23:10.300 difference of opinion. The man has lied about everything under the sun and there's a, just a

00:23:16.080 clear track record. And to take the most consequential, the big lie that he won the 2020 election,

00:23:22.260 right? That it was stolen from him. That Joe Biden was a fraudulent president because he stole the

00:23:28.280 election. That was a dangerous lie that he still hangs over our society like a sword of Damocles,

00:23:34.300 right? It's still a provocation to political violence. And one of the most depressing things

00:23:39.660 about the election night in 2024 was not that Trump won. I mean, that was depressing from my point

00:23:46.380 of view. But the genuinely scary thing, and I've said this at least at one point on a podcast,

00:23:51.640 is that there was a moment in the evening where Kamala Harris still could have won, right? The

00:23:57.320 so-called blue wall states hadn't fallen yet, right? I think at that point, the New York Times

00:24:03.200 was giving her an 11% chance of winning. So it was still, it was in the realm of possibility for her to

00:24:08.260 win. And many of us recognized at that point that given all the lying, given that even the, you know,

00:24:13.920 Elon Musk at that point was lying about voting irregularities and fraud, obvious fraud,

00:24:18.280 in Pennsylvania, I think. It would have been dangerous for her to have won at that point. 0.93

00:24:23.360 It was not safe for her to have won a free and fair election at that moment, given the messaging, 0.97

00:24:29.160 right? We, you know, we would have had an explosion of political violence coming from the right. I'm

00:24:33.780 absolutely convinced of it because of what Trump had done for four years, the way he had lied about

00:24:39.500 the lack of integrity of our electoral system. Joe Rogan, the all-in guys, Lex Friedman should have

00:24:47.460 pushed really hard on that point. That was the only responsible thing to do. They did nothing like

00:24:53.880 that. So it was the podcast election. What they did is they gave him a dozen hours, practically, of

00:24:59.840 free media exposure to tens of millions of people, wherein they, they worked very hard to

00:25:06.780 midwife a, the most humanizing conversation possible. They, they just created a good hang with

00:25:12.720 the guy, uh, and made him look like the celebrity that he is. I mean, we can get to Bill Maher in a

00:25:18.340 second, but I mean, it's the fact that he's a good hang is not relevant given his track record, given

00:25:24.860 what we already know he has done to our politics and any journalist. I mean, this is why it's so

00:25:30.300 dangerous and, and, and irresponsible. The fact that the biggest media platforms in the world right now

00:25:37.460 are providing an illusion of long form journalism without any of the, the sanity sparing principles

00:25:47.240 of real journalism. Yeah. Well, I don't want to get back to Bill yet. I want to, I do want to get to

00:25:52.160 him, but what I, what I do want to talk about is maybe while we're here on the podcast, if you can

00:25:57.320 just sharpen up or, or help clarify some of the confusion around freedom of speech versus

00:26:01.360 responsibility and what you are really wanting these platforms to do. And then next, if you can

00:26:07.340 talk about maybe some confusion around expertise, I do have some more questions there, but why don't

00:26:12.160 you start with that? Yeah. Well, I mean, so the, obviously probably the most misunderstood piece

00:26:17.300 of misinformation about me is, um, that, uh, I'm in some sense against free speech, right? I mean,

00:26:24.240 that, you know, that's been endlessly spun against me on X. I mean, this is what Elon tends to amplify

00:26:29.420 about me. It's totally false. Let me just unpick this here. So there are many liberals,

00:26:37.340 democracies that seek to regulate speech much more than America does. The UK, much of Western

00:26:45.440 Europe, Canada, New Zealand, all of them have more aggressive approaches to what is called hate

00:26:52.480 speech than we do. I mean, I'm open to argument on this point, but I think all, everything I've seen

00:26:57.380 there seems terribly misguided. I think for instance, laws against Holocaust denial in Western

00:27:02.660 Europe, they can send someone to jail for denying the Holocaust. Right. I think that is totally 0.59

00:27:07.060 counterproductive and unethical on people's doors in UK for social media posts. Oh yeah. I mean,

00:27:12.560 then there's completely insane instances of, you know, someone will tweet, you know, men are men

00:27:17.140 and women are women, and they'll get a visit from the police and in London. Right. I mean, it's just,

00:27:21.760 I don't even know how to think about that. I mean, I hear these, these specific cases and they sound

00:27:26.260 like, you know, episodes of black mirror. So all of this is to say that I think we're incredibly

00:27:30.980 lucky in America to have the first amendment and to have a nearly absolute right to free speech.

00:27:37.060 That is something that I would not want to lose. And yet it has almost no relevance to the debates

00:27:43.920 we're having about so-called free speech on platforms like X or, you know, platforming people

00:27:50.740 on podcasts, right? My criticism of Joe Rogan, all of that is unrelated to this question of how,

00:27:57.540 around the primacy of the first amendment and how good it is that we have it in America.

00:28:02.060 All the first amendment covers is one's political freedom to think out loud, right? The government

00:28:09.420 cannot jail you or otherwise make your life miserable for thinking out loud on almost any topic

00:28:16.660 in almost any way, in almost any context, right? Now there are some exceptions to this and, you know,

00:28:21.400 consult your local constitutional lawyer for those. But generally speaking, you know, and I think it's

00:28:27.500 even false to say that you can't shout fire in a movie theater, right? I mean, it's like there's

00:28:32.400 wide latitude. That said, all these people who claim to be free speech absolutists are delusional,

00:28:40.540 right? I mean, or lying. I mean, you know, Elon is the antithesis of it. He often calls himself a

00:28:45.600 free speech absolutist. He's nothing of the kind, right? I mean, he throws people off X who he doesn't like,

00:28:51.140 you know, journalists and otherwise. He preferentially boosts his content and de-boosts other content.

00:28:57.180 He slavishly follows the rules set down to him by authoritarian regimes the world over and

00:29:01.660 silences political dissent in places like Turkey, right? One would call him a hypocrite, but that 0.98

00:29:07.780 would be to suggest that he has principles he's struggling to live by. It's just, it's a free-for-all 0.90

00:29:13.720 over there and free speech absolutism has nothing to do with it. What he has done is he's brought back,

00:29:19.000 you know, with great fanfare, certain anti-Semites and white supremacists, and, you know, you can

00:29:24.740 judge- I want to get back to, I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to get back to what the

00:29:27.920 difference is when you're saying you don't like that Rogue and other people are platforming. People

00:29:31.460 are confused. They're saying- Oh, so I'm getting there. So the point is everyone is in the curation

00:29:39.360 business, even 4chan, right? That digital sewer has a moderation policy, right? I mean, it's just,

00:29:46.600 there's, there isn't literally, there's no place you can go that is a business or anything like a

00:29:52.480 business that doesn't have a moderation policy that isn't in the, isn't faced with the ongoing

00:29:58.580 decision-making process of who to platform or, and who not to platform. What ideas are worth

00:30:04.900 amplifying? What ideas are worth avoiding, right? Literally even 4chan is in that business and that's,

00:30:12.240 to say nothing of X or in Facebook. And so it is with every podcast host. Every, you know,

00:30:18.020 Joe Rogan has done thousands of podcasts. He'll do thousands more, presumably. Let's say he does 10,000

00:30:24.100 over the course of his life. He still has to decide who to platform, right? Who's worth talking to and

00:30:29.720 who isn't. And those decisions can be made responsibly or not. And I'm really not saying

00:30:37.560 that he shouldn't talk to anyone he wants to talk to. That's not my point. I mean, there are people,

00:30:42.840 you know, there are people who I think shouldn't be platformed because you, what, you know, Joe would

00:30:48.160 be doing would be plucking them out of obscurity, right? And suddenly making them famous. And that

00:30:53.060 would be a bad thing. But, you know, that aside, he should talk to anyone he wants to talk to.

00:30:58.860 I'm saying that there are certain people it is irresponsible to talk to unless you do your

00:31:04.420 homework, unless you can provide the sunlight you imagine is going to be a great disinfectant.

00:31:09.880 It's not a good thing for you or your reputation or the world to talk to those people, because what

00:31:15.620 you're doing is you're just giving them access to your highly impressionable audience who, you know,

00:31:21.800 if you're not in a position to know when Daryl Cooper is recycling David Irving, you can be assured

00:31:27.060 that most of your audience isn't either, right? And it's bad, certainly at this moment where

00:31:33.280 we're seeing antisemitism explode the world over. It is bad to be recycling David Irving and not

00:31:39.820 knowing it. And that's what Daryl Cooper is doing. I mean, maybe, you know, I'm reasonably sure Daryl

00:31:45.540 has read Irving directly and knows when he's using him as a talking point. But, you know, even there,

00:31:51.740 maybe Daryl doesn't entirely know what he's up to.

00:31:55.400 Well, maybe Rogan's thinking, look, I got people like Dave Smith on the podcast. I don't remember if

00:32:00.920 Weinstein was on or others that, for example, during the pandemic seemed to have break away,

00:32:05.280 breaking away from the institutions of the norms and almost acted as whistleblowers or people that

00:32:10.160 were reporting information that may or may not have been included in whatever the diet was that we

00:32:16.800 were getting. And many people found it helpful. Many people found that some of the things that

00:32:22.600 they were saying were being left out. And we were getting utterly confused by the mainstream media.

00:32:28.440 And so here comes Joe thinking, let me find these voices and put them on my platform and do my part.

00:32:35.540 Yeah. So and many of the voices he platformed were not worth listening to. And I think it's still true

00:32:42.780 to say that the best estimates are that something like 300,000 people in America died unnecessarily

00:32:48.780 due to vaccine hesitancy, which is to say that if everyone took the vaccine who could have taken the

00:32:53.540 vaccine, 300,000 people would be alive today who aren't, right? So that's a bad outcome. I think

00:32:59.660 all the people who were not so worried about COVID, but extremely worried about the mRNA vaccines had a

00:33:06.160 hand in creating that environment, right? And that was a bad thing. Yes, the establishment embarrassed

00:33:12.220 itself on many points during COVID. I think that the lessons that people are drawing from that are being

00:33:18.640 highly exaggerated. But nonetheless, it's true. Certain of those moments were obvious

00:33:24.960 at the outset. And certainly it became obvious months and even years later, right? I mean, the

00:33:31.060 calling the lab leak hypothesis racist was obviously an error and an embarrassing one

00:33:39.580 within seconds of, you know, the first person who spoke those words, right? I don't know who that was,

00:33:45.800 but, you know, you became widely vilified on the left if you thought that, you know, the Wuhan Institute

00:33:51.480 of Virology had anything to do with the origin of COVID. As I pointed out at the time and have pointed

00:33:56.780 out many times since, that was somehow, that was inscrutable because it does seem politically worse

00:34:03.160 and even borderline racist to allege that the origin of the virus is the wet market, right? Where, because

00:34:10.560 these Chinese people can't figure out how to stop eating bats and pangolins and raccoon dogs. I mean, 1.00

00:34:16.300 which is more politically invidious, that or that they could have had a lab leak, which is a fate that

00:34:22.500 every biosafety lab in the world fears, and understandably so. So the allegation of racism

00:34:29.300 was idiotic. It was always obvious. Even I, who am castigated by people in Joe's audience for having 1.00

00:34:36.520 overreacted to COVID was on the same page around the lab leak. Honestly, the errors that were made

00:34:43.300 were, are so distorted in the funhouse mirror of, you know, contrarian takes over in Joe's world

00:34:51.500 and certainly in RFK's world that it's, it's very hard to grant them many of the points they want to

00:34:57.160 make. But the general point stands is that the, the institutions and certainly mainstream journalists,

00:35:02.520 scientists, uh, scientists, scientific journals embarrass themselves. And, but I can count on

00:35:08.400 one hand the, the major instances of that. And I can't, I'm not even sure I can think of one that

00:35:14.480 was medically important, right? Stigmatizing ivermectin, I don't think was medically, I still

00:35:19.720 don't think was medically important. Is that, is ivermectin still, is that important to take now? And

00:35:24.340 as a prophylactic against COVID was Brett Weinstein on, on firm ground doing 150 podcasts in a row on that

00:35:30.620 topic, I doubt it. We know that if you, uh, create a map of people who, you know, doubted the, uh,

00:35:38.360 safety of the vaccine and, and thought ivermectin was a prophylactic, we know that deaths from COVID

00:35:43.220 went up in those, those neighborhoods, not down. Right. I mean, that's just, yeah. All right.

00:35:48.120 I brought this subject up, but I'm a, I think I'm going to kill myself if I have to, we've talked

00:35:53.140 about COVID any longer. So let's move on to this. I, what I want to hear is your thoughts.

00:35:56.800 But the point is they're drawing the wrong lesson from their, you know, that we were, we were right

00:36:00.940 about COVID song and dance that they, they keep doing and have been doing for years. One, it's not

00:36:06.560 true in some very important respects. Two, where it is true, they're drawing the wrong lesson. They're

00:36:11.960 drawing, the lesson they're drawing is that expertise is not really a thing, right? And yet they can't

00:36:18.640 apply that claim in many places in their, in their lives, certainly, you know, where they care about

00:36:23.780 things. Uh, they know that expertise is a thing. Well, this is what I want you to get into the

00:36:28.060 expertise part. The thing is, is that, okay, you've said it's okay to be an autodidact. You can read

00:36:32.240 lots of books. You can be very smart. And, and Dave Smith is a very smart guy, obviously, but I want

00:36:37.760 to hear your thoughts. I've heard you say that eventually these people have to be verified by

00:36:42.360 real experts and, and talk to me about how these non-experts can play a role, uh, or how they need to

00:36:48.600 sort of synthesize it within the system so that, um, they can have their ideas, uh, checked or

00:36:55.760 verified. So you just asked the question, how do we ever know that anything is true, right? I mean,

00:37:01.380 so take this, the prototypical case, the, you know, the, the extreme case in my view, but it's the kind

00:37:06.540 of case that people want to celebrate. You have Alex Jones, who, while commenting about everything

00:37:12.560 under the sun, occasionally says something that's true, right? And it says it early, right? He's the first

00:37:18.240 to claim that whatever, something in the water is, you know, turning frogs gay or whatever,

00:37:24.420 whatever, whatever his goofy claim was that gets lots of laughs over there, but the, um, he'll say

00:37:30.140 something and he's not, he's a non-expert. He's certainly not a biologist. How do we find out

00:37:36.460 what is actually true about frog behavior or frog biology? Well, then you need the real frog specialists

00:37:42.920 in there to figure that out, right? You still need the experts. Even if the experts are wrong,

00:37:47.000 even if you have a cabal of experts in, you know, journals on frog biology who, uh, think it's

00:37:52.960 a homophobic to allege that frogs are gay and they've been, they've been actively suppressing

00:37:57.420 that knowledge for years, right? The, the only way to, to actually figure it out is yet more honest

00:38:03.460 biology around frogs. And so it is with the safety of MRNA vaccines or the real dynamics by which, uh,

00:38:11.780 disease spreads or, you know, the risk of H5N1 becoming, you know, human to human transmissible,

00:38:17.740 you need the real scientists doing the real work who are really competent to do it. And so the role

00:38:23.400 of an RFK junior or a, a non-expert, I'm not saying is non-existent. It's possible for someone to

00:38:30.100 get busy, you know, Googling or spend a lot of time with chat GPT and come up with a question

00:38:36.120 that provokes a real investigation of something that has been ignored, uh, even for political,

00:38:41.840 you know, political reasons, but you still need experts to fly. You need real pilots to fly the

00:38:47.540 plane. And that's true across the board. And so it is with, uh, you know, even a discipline like

00:38:54.000 history, right? At the end of the day, you need people who are adequate to tell you what really

00:39:00.580 happened in the past because they can go into the archives and, you know, read the papers in the

00:39:04.780 original languages and, uh, or, you know, journalistically they can, they know what

00:39:09.260 Vladimir Putin says in Russian, right? Not just what gets translated to English, right? I mean,

00:39:14.380 so it's just, there's, it matters to have real, we need real experts. We need real journalists. We

00:39:19.460 need people who are not just winging it. And everyone knows this. Joe knows this. Dave Smith knows this.

00:39:27.000 Uh, and so one thing that was so frustrating about their collision with Douglas was that

00:39:30.660 Douglas was making this point, uh, though he made it in a way that, that understandably they

00:39:35.240 proved allergic to, I mean, he, you know, when he, when he embarrassed Dave Smith by saying,

00:39:40.500 have you ever been to the region? Have you ever been to Ukraine? Have you ever been to Gaza?

00:39:44.700 Right.

00:39:45.100 And the answer was no, you know, from Douglas's point of view as a journalist and as a

00:39:50.100 more correspondent.

00:39:51.600 I didn't think Dave Smith, I didn't, I didn't get that he was embarrassed by that.

00:39:55.180 Right. And you could argue that, you know, it was actually a false move from Douglas's point of

00:39:59.640 view. I mean, I think it's, I understand that Douglas is a war correspondent, feels the need

00:40:03.960 to actually, you know, talk to the troops and that's a journalistic responsibility. That's fine.

00:40:09.640 And I think, and he, and he did reveal that Dave was delusional in his, in the picture he had formed

00:40:15.860 in his mind about what life was like in Gaza, calling it a concentration camp, calling it an open 0.96

00:40:20.760 air prison, imagining that the blockade was so complete that there was, you know, nothing of,

00:40:26.300 of value or necessity was, was in Gaza. Right. 0.93

00:40:30.120 I think none of that's helpful to have been there, but it's not required.

00:40:32.640 Yeah. So, so Douglas was saying, have you ever been there? Right. Do you even know what you're

00:40:35.380 talking about? And he, it's clear that he didn't, he just was taking these words at face value,

00:40:40.280 blockade and open air prison and concentration camp. And so there, I mean, I thought Douglas's

00:40:45.220 point landed, but, you know, Dave is right to say that you can think and, and, and even talk

00:40:51.260 publicly about the ethics of a war without ever having been to the country, right? You can read

00:40:55.820 the right books, you can read the right articles, you know, provided you're actually getting real

00:40:59.640 information. You can know enough to know what you think about who started the war and, you know,

00:41:05.540 what the response should be, et cetera. But the problem is with Dave and Joe there, Dave is not an

00:41:11.980 expert in any of these things. He's a standup comedian, right? He's self-taught in all of,

00:41:16.740 on all these topics. And he admits that. And yet he's content to play an expert on, on TV,

00:41:25.000 right? And on the largest podcasts on planet earth, right? He's, he'll talk to 50 million people

00:41:30.420 about how there's a genocide in Gaza, right? Or how Putin was pushed by NATO overreach to, as a

00:41:38.720 rational actor to invade Ukraine. And, uh, the onus is, uh, to a considerable degree on us for

00:41:46.360 having failed, you know, diplomatically there. He can make these claims as stridently as he wants.

00:41:52.740 Uh, he can go on, you know, Piers Morgan and debate people as though he were an expert,

00:41:56.980 but at the end of the day, he can pull the ripcord and say, listen, if I get anything wrong,

00:42:01.220 I'm just, I'm not an expert, right? So he suffers no reputational penalty, at least in his world,

00:42:06.280 for being wrong the way a real expert would. And yet he can hit the ball as hard as he wants

00:42:11.700 and do that for as long as he wants in every other context. And that's what it's like for him to play

00:42:17.280 tennis without the net, right? There really is no net there. He's the, it can't possibly go wrong for

00:42:22.680 him on his terms. And yet by his account and by the account of his audience, and certainly in Joe's

00:42:28.780 mind, he's hitting the ball as hard as anyone. He's hard, as hard as the pros, right? He's returning

00:42:34.400 serve perfectly. And yet they're not noticing that there's no net. And for, yet for Douglas,

00:42:41.240 there is a net, right? And when the ball goes into it and he loses a point, it really matters

00:42:46.300 for him, right? Because he has, he is an expert on the topics he's addressing. And the onus really

00:42:51.820 is on him to get his facts straight and not to pretend to know things he doesn't know. And if he

00:42:56.980 winds up dignifying a source as legitimate that turns out to be, you know, fake, that's a real

00:43:04.040 problem. But with all these self-taught entertainers, you know, and even someone like

00:43:09.220 Daryl Cooper is in that bucket, they never pay a penalty for this. I mean, Daryl Cooper is trafficking

00:43:14.900 in profoundly misleading misinformation about the Holocaust and about the behavior of the Nazis and

00:43:21.620 their motives, right? About the, you know, about, about Hitler, what he was thinking and why he was

00:43:26.560 doing certain things. And he's creating the kind of engine of antisemitism. And again, it's being

00:43:32.560 celebrated at the highest level. You know, Tucker Carlson and Joe Rogan, you know, both are treating

00:43:37.840 him like really the best popular historian we have at this moment. I mean, that was an explicit claim

00:43:44.120 by Tucker and Joe, you know, you know, I think Joe would say it's him and Dan Carlin, right? And so,

00:43:51.200 and I should, you know, I should say, I'm not throwing any shade on Dan. I think Dan, you know,

00:43:55.160 at least to my eye has been incredibly responsible in how he's, as an amateur historian, has popularized

00:44:01.040 history. I think Dan's fantastic. I think Dan will, you know, has criticized Daryl for what he's done

00:44:08.240 here. And Daryl, you know, Daryl should look into the mirror of his own audience. I mean, Daryl just

00:44:13.240 published, to my eye, a fairly bizarre essay on Substack, admitting that his audience was just

00:44:19.980 chock full of anti-Semites now, just bursting with anti-Semites. And then he was kind of

00:44:24.820 differentiating among the anti-Semites, the ones he felt he could still talk to and the ones he just

00:44:30.380 didn't want in his audience, right? Like there's the smart anti-Semites and the dumb anti-Semites, 0.99

00:44:35.500 right? And he's deciding to split the baby that way. It's an odious project and it's completely 1.00

00:44:42.180 irresponsible. He is not being nearly as clear as he should be to be ethical in disavowing anti-Semitism

00:44:52.200 and in disavowing the conspiracy thinking that is getting weaponized so as to seem to make

00:44:57.820 anti-Semitism a sane political project. And so he's part of the Candace Owens problem. He's part of the 0.74

00:45:03.720 Dan Bilzerian problem. And it matters that all of these people are sort of in good standing with Joe

00:45:10.440 and Dave. I mean, if you saw Dave and Joe talk about Candace Owens and her recent adventures

00:45:15.860 on the microphone, that was, um, talking about the third rail stuff. Absolutely contemptible

00:45:21.640 how they framed what she's doing, right? I mean, they, you know, perhaps we could,

00:45:26.880 could drop the clip in here. There's been any of the shows on cable news. It's, it's phenomenal.

00:45:32.480 It's, it's like they created a monster with her when they, when they fired her from the daily wire,

00:45:36.780 they created a monster. Yeah, they sure did. She can't be stopped. Yeah. Oh no, no, no. There's no

00:45:41.540 stopping Candace Owens at this point. Because she's hitting all the fucking third rails that no one 1.00

00:45:45.540 wants to touch. They found it nothing but a source of comedy and real just, you know, celebration. 0.99

00:45:51.680 Like there's independent media. It was an independent media win to see how Candace was unstoppable, 1.00

00:45:57.620 right? Candace, you know, the daily wire tried to, you know, what one could say the quiet part out

00:46:02.060 loud, you know, the Jews over the daily wire tried to silence her, but, uh, they couldn't because 0.89

00:46:07.260 she's so charismatic and she just, she's so fearless. She's so courageous. She's touching all

00:46:12.700 the third rails and it's awesome. But what are those third rails, right? Joe, Dave, what are those

00:46:18.860 third rails? You know what they are because you've heard her do her shtick. The third rails are that the 0.99

00:46:25.060 Jews, you know, for ages have been killing Christians for, at Passover, quite literally the blood libel. 0.96

00:46:31.100 The newest third rail that I learned from her is that the, that Israel is responsible for 9-11. 0.94

00:46:37.080 We missed the trail of breadcrumbs that led directly to the Mossad there. She's dusting off

00:46:42.260 that thesis and, and that's, that's what she's telling millions of people now. Again, in a context

00:46:47.300 in the aftermath of October 7th, where we're witnessing the greatest explosion of antisemitism

00:46:53.180 in several generations. Yeah. Well, you're going to have a lot more to talk to Douglas about later this

00:46:59.940 week. I'm sure you're going to get into this, uh, a lot with him, but I want to, I want to jump over

00:47:04.460 to our, uh, financial luminaries. As I said, at the top of this, when Trump's tariffs were tanking, uh,

00:47:10.300 the market, we saw many in the right say, just slow down a little bit, give it a second. You have to

00:47:14.140 have patience. And then when he pulled them back, everybody praised him. And Bill Ackman, uh, went as far

00:47:20.040 to say it was brilliantly executed. Now, obviously Bill's very bright, but what am I not seeing here

00:47:25.760 that he's seeing? What's, what's going on? It just seems to me like this is sort of the Kim Jong-un

00:47:29.900 behavior where everyone's clapping as he gets a hole in one on every hole. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

00:47:36.120 so, you know, so there, again, I'm not an economist and this matters, right? It's like,

00:47:40.820 it's like the responsible thing for me to do on this topic of tariffs and the implications of, um,

00:47:47.660 Trump's policy is to acknowledge what most economists believe. And in this case,

00:47:54.860 it's incredibly easy because I, it's by my count, there are only three economists on planet earth

00:48:00.780 that support this tariff policy. And two of them are Peter Navarro. It's, I don't know if you've

00:48:06.520 heard of the scandal, but yeah, yeah. And Ron Varro. Yeah. I mean, it's just, he invented his source on

00:48:11.820 this topic. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - April 16, 2025

#409 — ＂More From Sam＂： Religion, Deportations, Douglas Murray vs. Rogan, & Bill Maher's Dinner with Trump

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