#419 — ＂More From Sam＂： Elon vs. Trump, Religion, Jordan Peterson, & Rapid Fire Questions
Summary
Sam Harris joins us to talk about the latest in the Trump administration, Elon Musk's comments on Congress, and the ongoing saga of the $4.4 trillion debt ceiling debate. We also discuss whether or not Trump is a good or bad president.
Transcript
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Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're
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Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore
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Hey Sam, thanks for coming in so quickly. We recorded an episode yesterday that was about
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to come out, and we discussed Trump and Musk, and in light of today's events, we decided
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to jump back in here. So thanks for jumping in so quickly.
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Yeah, a few things have happened. So I guess we're going to record an addendum now and then
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tack that on to the back of the episode that was destined to arrive today.
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Good to see you too. Okay, we have a lot to get to today, but-
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Well, just a quick housekeeping before we do. I need to clarify some things.
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Many of, this isn't for you, this is for the audience. Many in the audience have already
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picked up on this, but again, just to clarify, the goal of this series is more from Sam on
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current events more often. My job here is to draw more energy out of Sam to surface his
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ideas in a format that's a little looser than the podcast. So the tone will be more casual.
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If the pacing is faster, that's all intentional. I'll sometimes play devil's advocate and even
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exaggerate positions, whatever it takes to keep things moving. None of this is about me,
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so don't get caught up on what you think my positions actually are.
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Oh, well, this is just to clarify. I think a lot of people, most people got it,
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but some people were confused. And one of the reasons why we didn't bring on another academic
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or intellectual is that they would show up with their own agenda, and that's not what we wanted
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here. We wanted to really push you around. And so this will feel different from the polished
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conversations and essays that the audience is used to. Again, that's intentional. And this series
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is not meant to be a replacement for anything. So all those wanting more science podcasts,
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those are still happening. It's simply in addition to what we're already doing or what you're already
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doing, Sam. And lastly, it's a work in progress. So who knows where this still may go? I hope that
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helps. Well, it is a thankless job. So thank you for it. Well, thank you for making the time for this,
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because I do think that many in the audience do enjoy hearing more from you. And so we're going to
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do more of these as long as that is the case. All right. Yesterday, Elon Musk tweeted,
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I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional
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spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong.
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You know it. Any thoughts there, Sam? The first thing I notice is the phrase anymore,
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right? So like just how long has he been putting up with this stupidity and incompetence
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that he can now no longer stand? I mean, he obviously he's been shilling for this administration
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to a degree that would be impossible to exaggerate. On his own account, he loves Donald Trump more than
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any, as much as any straight man can love another man. We'll see how long that lasts.
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Yeah. Trump was right about everything. He has shown nothing but contempt for anyone who would
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take the opposite side of that debate to any degree. I mean, I don't know what to,
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how to interpret his utterances at this point. The man seems so dysregulated. I mean,
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having watched that press conference last week, or at least long sections of it,
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something's obviously not right with him psychologically.
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Right. Well, he had apparently a phone call with Speaker Mike Johnson on Monday, and he said that
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Elon Musk seemed to understand the virtues of the legislation, and he was very disappointed and
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surprised to hear him come out, I guess, a couple of days later.
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Yeah. So I think Elon is capable of surprising a lot of people, it seems. He's one person,
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one moment, another person, the next. I certainly have experienced that surprise over a longer time
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course. Does it not concern you that he couldn't make a real dent in reducing the debt? I mean,
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it looks like Trump's new bill could add $2.4 billion to the debt. And I mean, Elon, for all the
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stuff you say about him, he's obviously quite gifted in some areas. And the fact that he just took a
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wrecking ball and still ended up, I mean, just in some accounts, adding more to the debt.
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Yeah. I mean, we're going to find out more about what Doge actually accomplished. I think at this
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point, it's pretty easy to see that the main thing it accomplished was chaos and the reduction of morale
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among otherwise well-intentioned and competent people in our government,
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and colossal brand damage for Elon and his companies. And that's the main effect. Yes,
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he found some waste and abuse, presumably. But I think that the lesson that people are drawing now
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is that there's not nearly as much fraud or waste or abuse to be found in government spending as
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many of us would expect. Elon claimed he was going to find $2 trillion. Then he knocked that down to
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$1 trillion. He claims to have found something like $150 or $170 billion. I think estimates are that
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it's much less than that. And that perversely, all of this chaos may have in fact added cost to the
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government. I mean, it's been a disaster and it should be viewed as a disaster. I mean, I'm sure
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right of center, they still imagined great things were accomplished because of the level of lying,
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frankly, that Elon and Trump perpetrated. I mean, they stood before the country and said that millions
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of people are receiving Social Security checks and they're 150 years old or otherwise dead.
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That's just not true, right? They lied about that. Trump said it, I think, in his State of the Union,
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lying about that. I'm sure Elon is still lying about that. And that sits atop a long list of lies.
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It's just the truth of the matter, per Matt Iglesias' Substack article this morning,
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is that Social Security just had some weird practice of keeping lots of void accounts still
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on the books for some data-keeping, bureaucratic principle that I don't understand. But no one was
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getting these checks and everyone knew over there that no one was getting these checks. And the Doge
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team just didn't know how to interpret what they saw there. And they quite recklessly announced to
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the world that millions of people were getting paid. And that's just... Everything you hear about
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what they were up to suggests a level of callousness and contempt and recklessness that is... Those moods
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were their guiding principle. And again, it remains to be seen whether the real goal was efficiency and
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not just the demoralization of the so-called deep state, right? I mean, certainly that has been
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announced by people like Russell Vogt that the goal is to have everyone working for the government
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get up in the morning and feel nothing but depression and terror or something. That's not
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the verbatim quote, but pretty close. Just to be afraid to come into work because of how fucking
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awful their lives are. Do we really want an approach to government that maximizes for that attitude?
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You know, given this fallout, both of these men are two of the most powerful people in the world
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and they have massive platforms and they're petulant and they're babies and they're bullies.
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How do you feel about what could happen between the two of them?
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I hope they collide appropriately and we get to see in the scattering of controversy their true
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characters at this point. I mean, I just think our society has to, our culture politically and
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elsewhere has to lose its patience with failures of integrity and dishonesty. Above all, we should want
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competence and integrity from the people who purport to be guiding our society towards some end, right?
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And insofar as people are revealed to be liars and crooks and double dealers and just fatally
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compromised by their own conflicts of interest, you know, just avaricious lunatics of the sort that we
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see in Trump and company, you know, his rapacious family that's just grifting on everything that can
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be put within arm's reach. We should lose our patience for this. I mean, this is disgusting,
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right? It's like we have to feel a capacity for moral revulsion over this sort of stuff. This is
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not normal. This is not much less good. And how we get to the point where we all just vomit in
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unison. I don't know, but I mean, we, we have to get there. Yeah. Well, I mean, is it possible that
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we needed a Trump or a Musk type or both of them in Doge to begin to pop the hood? No, to realize
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how bad Trump and Musk and Doge are? No, no, no, no, no. To realize, to start taking the debt
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seriously. I mean, do you really think if Kamala Harris was elected, we'd be doing that? Do you think
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there'd be an abundance movement without Trump? I mean, is there some credit that goes there?
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I mean, it's an interesting question, but I mean, you're basically you're saying that any kind of
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pendulum swing back to sanity can be credited to just how bad things have gotten. Well, okay. But
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like, do we have to rush toward the cliff in order to finally be, you know, to be safe? I mean, no,
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I think. No, I'm saying we were rushing toward the cliff. No one was addressing. We're still rushing
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toward the cliff. I mean, we, we, we still haven't figured out an appropriate response to the debt.
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Okay. But the last administration wasn't focused on, on that.
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No. And then nor is this one apparently, right? It's adding trillions.
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No, but it's not even pretending to at this point. That's why Elon can't stand it anymore.
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You know, anymore is probably means the last 30 seconds, but he can't stand it anymore.
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This is an abomination, this bill on his account.
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Okay. I'm going to shift gears. Thank you for that. I know you're going on Jordan Peterson's
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podcast soon. So I don't want to talk about him for a moment. He's been credited for bringing
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so many people back to Christianity 2.0, more of the, I guess, live and let live Christians versus
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the 1980s or I guess the 1480s for that matter. I think there are a number of reasons why Jordan
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has been so effective here. And I want to come back to him in a moment, but coinciding with his
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efforts is a massive loneliness epidemic. And it's very real. Given your concerns with religion and
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the current inability for any other organizations to recapitulate the communal experience in quite the
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same way religion has been able to, do you feel differently now about people finding their way
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back to faith, you know, until AI, as you said, maybe could, you know, dream up something that
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solves all of these concerns. Isn't religion a better alternative for some people?
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Well, I don't know. I mean, it might be, I mean, it's, if you caveat it that way, I think I can
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probably say, yes, it might be a better alternative for some people, but, you know, prison is a good
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alternative for some people. I mean, it's just, is it the best alternative for any person? I doubt
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it. Right. I mean, just, you know, Christianity, if we could edit the homophobia out of Christianity,
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if we could edit the expectation that. But they have, I mean, a lot of new, that's what I'm saying,
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2.0. Well, no, no, but like really edit it so that it made absolutely no sense to be homophobic.
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Like there's no recourse to the teachings that could get you homophobia. Okay. But there are a lot of
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people that are looking away that these days and just don't pay attention to that. They're just
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ignoring that. So I think there is a new version of it. And people who are looking for purpose and
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community, after what so many people have seen social media do, it's just ripped society apart.
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And it's also just made people feel so alone or it's at least contributed, I believe in a big way.
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Why not encourage people as Jordan has to find faith? And I'm sure there's other reasons there as
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well, but for purpose and community. I mean, I don't necessarily understand the Catholicism part.
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It feels very ritualistic. I would imagine people would look for something a little bit more
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lightweight for their connectivity, but I kind of get why people are doing it. You know, as somebody
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who was a former practicing Jew, as I've said this before, I really miss community and there's just
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nothing that's replaced that for me. Yeah. Well, I mean, I do think that's a void and we need to fill it,
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but the question is, can we fill it with something better and more reasonable and
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not intrinsically divisive, not intellectually embarrassing, doesn't require any lies to
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oneself or to one's children? But I think this new brand of Christianity has minimized those
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sort of self-lies. But it hasn't really. I mean, listen, it takes me 15 seconds to drill down in
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a conversation with any Christian to get to the crazy part, right? Well, I mean, you're still going to
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hell, but I mean, there's still some benefit. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if there is no
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crazy part, then it really isn't fulfilling. That's the thing, right? If there's no chewy
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center of superstition and otherworldliness and expectation of redemption after death,
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there has to be some magic in there. Otherwise, we're just talking about, you know, who's going
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to bring the egg salad for the picnic, right? I mean, it's like, can we figure out some other way
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to picnic? It's not just a tailgate. I mean, you're tailgating for God here. You're tailgating for
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eternity. And that's what makes it especially meaningful, right? And Jordan doesn't disavow
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that. I mean, I don't know what I'm going to talk about with Jordan. It's been a very long time
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since we've spoken, and I haven't really followed all of his kind of the vagaries of his...
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Well, but did you see that clip of him going... Well, we're going to talk about that too in a
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second. Did you see that clip going around with him on the Jubilee podcast episode where...
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I saw that it exists. I actually didn't watch... I think I saw... Maybe I caught part of a clip,
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but I just decided to not pollute my brain with it in advance of my conversation with him. I just...
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I mean, I could see that there was some kind of consensus forming online that he had not acquitted
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himself well in those conversations. And... But do you not want to talk to him about that? I think
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it'd be very interesting to talk to him about it because he seemed very evasive there.
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I didn't... Well, I just didn't want to prejudice my... Like, I can't imagine he wants to talk to me
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about it, right? And I don't know what I can say to him. I mean, I... Listen, I know how Jordan
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debates atheists because I've debated him. It would be unsurprising to me that if he stuck 20 atheists
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in a room with him, it wouldn't go very well. It's not like anyone on his side has good answers to
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the questions atheists pose. There are no good answers, right? I mean, the atheists... Religious people
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are slow to recognize it, but they're standing on a... Just a mountain of non-sequiturs. And they
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recognize it in other people's faith, right? I mean, no Christian is convinced by the reasoning of...
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