#424 — ＂More From Sam＂： Nazi Grok, ICE, Epstein, Social Media, Rapid Fire Questions
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Summary
In this episode of the Making Sense Podcast, host Alex Blumberg sits down with comedian and writer Sam Harris to discuss a wide range of current events, including the recent release of a Nazi-themed video game, 4chan's new "Mecha Hitler," and the growing problem of AI in general.
Transcript
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Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're
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hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing
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the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense
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Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore
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it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're
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doing here, please consider becoming one. Okay, welcome back to another episode of More
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From Sam. Hi, Sam. Hey, good to see you. Good to see you too. As a reminder, the goal of this series
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is to get More From Sam on current events more often and to provide access to a more casual version
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of Sam. Along with subscriber input... So far as that's possible. There's a caveat there, but let's
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do that. I am here to do my best. Along with subscriber input, I may share my own positions,
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exaggerated versions of my positions, or play devil's advocate and shift between them seamlessly.
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But because we're here for Sam's ideas, none of that should matter. And thank you again to our
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subscribers for submitting your questions and comments. If you'd like to submit comments for
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a future episode, you'll need to become a subscriber, and you can do that at samharris.org.
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And the account you create there will also unlock a free account at Substack, and you can submit your
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questions on Sam's Substack page for future episodes. And while you're at samharris.org,
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you can find all of Sam's upcoming tour dates. There are currently five shows on sale in New York,
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Austin, Seattle, San Jose, and Chicago. And as I said in the last episode, I think we'll be adding
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some more shows in the future. So if you have any suggestions for where Sam should go next, please
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submit those on Substack as well. And we'll consider those. As a reminder, Sam will be delivering a
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prepared talk for the first part of the show. And in the second segment, he and I will sit down and do
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a live episode of more from Sam. One of these things. And just to add one more thing, if you want
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to see Sam on tour, this is probably the time to do it. I'm not saying 100% that Sam will never tour
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again. What are you predicting? Death or infirmity? What's going on? I'm predicting,
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I would not bet on you touring again in the future. It has taken me six years to convince you.
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An unwillingness to tour? There's just no reason to do it other than to go and see your fans or have
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them, give them a chance to see you. So it's taken me a long time to, I really, if I get to get any
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credit here, I've been, I've been trying to get you to go out for a long time and we're going to do it.
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And I don't know how successful I'll be beyond this tour. So if you want to, if you want to have
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a fun night out and see Sam live, this is your chance to do that. Okay, let's get to our first
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topic. Grok goes Nazi. Are you, uh, you surprised by this, Sam? Uh, is anyone surprised by Nazi AI over
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at Grok? Grok is trained on the vomitorium that is X. It was Twitter. It presumably has access to
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everything that has ever been said on Twitter. And now, you know, all the, uh, the outpouring of
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neo-Nazi fanboy sentiment that we've witnessed on X, you know, that is its asymmetric advantage
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that it's basically got its little corner of, you know, in-cell 4chan Elon stands to, uh, listen to.
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I mean, obviously they've since put some kind of governor on it. So it's now apologizing for,
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you know, for, for having recommended a second Holocaust and called itself Mecha Hitler, I think,
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and, uh, Giga Chad. I mean, it's not surprising. I mean, maybe, maybe they can get the kinks worked
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out, but this is a problem with AI generally, but I think it's a special concern about Grok. It's going
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to mirror back to us what we have put into it, right? I mean, it's learning based on the data has
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access to. And I mean, the only thing worse than this would be, you know, 4chan launching its own
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AI, right? Which I guess is conceivable. I mean, who, who wants, who wants to plow a hundred billion
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dollars into that, but now we have the department of defense apparently wanting to pay for this
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work product. And, uh, it was, I think a $200 million contract that was just announced.
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I guess, I guess, uh, I don't know. Can Nazi AI, uh, help the department of defense? Well,
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I guess it remains to be seen. Okay. I want to move on to another topic. I want to get your current
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thoughts on ICE, immigration, Stephen Miller, and anything related to that topic.
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The immigration spectacle has really been just appalling. I mean, I, I'm sure it's happening
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in other places that I haven't been paying attention to, but in California, it's just
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obviously meant to be ruthless and cruel and disorienting and provocative, right? I just
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say it's very hard to see it any other way. I mean, you can, I mean, bending over backwards
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to be charitable to the administration, you can see the legitimacy insofar as we have these
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laws. People are here either, they're either here illegally or not. If they're here illegally,
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the federal government is entitled to enforce these laws. And in certain circumstances, they're
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it's reasonable to expect that the locals are not going to be so compliant and therefore they need
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to come in with, with some sort of show of force to at least be saved and keep their agents and
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everyone else safe. Right. So again, I'm bending over backwards to be charitable here. But so if
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you're going to connect all those dots and say, okay, it's not so anomalous to have the federal
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government enforcing federal law and doing it in a way of, it's going to cut through any opposition.
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And, you know, I really have nothing to say in defense of protesters who are going to throw
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chunks of concrete at, you know, cops heads, right. And, and try to kill them. Right. I mean,
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that's just obviously illegal and dangerous and those people need to be prosecuted. So the fact
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that we're here with the federal government trying to enforce real laws against people who are really
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here illegally is not on its face, insane or, or unethical, except the way they're doing it.
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It seems designed to produce the reaction that they would then want to quell with yet more force.
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And it's considered a win for, you know, kind of authoritarian approach to dealing with,
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with so-called sanctuary cities or, or leftist, you know, local politics. Even if you agreed,
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you wanted all these people out of the country, right. There has to be a more judicious, orderly
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way to do it. Right. There's, there's no reason to surprise a car wash with 20 ice agents, guns drawn
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and say, you know, get everyone, get down on the floor. And then in your rush to grab people who
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are here illegally, who you've just profiled based on, you know, their ethnicity, you're grabbing
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actual citizens and sending them off to detention centers too. Right. Who would be, and citizens who
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are telling you that they have papers and you're not listening to them. Right. I mean, it's, it's just,
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that's been the spectacle and it's so, it's creating so much fear in the community and so much disorder.
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I mean, I know people who are citizens who are sending them, sending their kids to private schools
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in Los Angeles, who, whose families are afraid to leave the house. It's like, this is not, this is
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hitting everybody at every level. This is not just hitting people who are here illegally, but my real
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position is most of the people who are here illegally are, have been drawn here based on an economic,
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a tacit economic arrangement that we made with them a generation ago to work in industries where
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Americans don't want to work. You know, where are all these American patriots who want to work at
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car washes and pick strawberries? You know, they don't exist. And so we have a, we have an economy
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built on this labor. There's dysfunction associated with that, obviously, but there's also, it's also
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an arrangement that everyone has consciously made. And now you have people here who are adding to the
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economy, really doing nothing but add to the economy, adding to the economy disproportionately insofar as
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they don't, they pay into social security and they never take the benefits out. And many of them
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have kids here who are citizens, right? So it's just the real, the appropriate response to all of
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this was to close the border and to not let anyone in who we don't want in. Fine. I was always, I was
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always in support of that, but then create some path to legitimacy here, you know, whether it's
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citizenship or, you know, some appropriate legal work status and to do it in an orderly way.
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And in the course of doing that, find all the people who are actually criminals, who nobody
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wants here and deport those people. Everyone was for that, but this is a kind of a jackbooted and
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obviously cruel approach to implementing a policy that is, you know, too extreme by half. And it was
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completely unnecessary. What do you make of Tom Homan's explanation for some of the force that was
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needed that they had wanted to get local governments to be supportive or cooperate? And they didn't.
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And the reason why these guys come in with masks is because they have been doxed and he doesn't want
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to see that happen to them. It's all an ugly scene, but he has a lot of explanations, some of which
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makes sense for why they're doing what they're doing. I mean, obviously nabbing the wrong people.
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I don't know if you saw, but I wanted to get your thoughts on this given. I know your position
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on profiling, but a judge has recently ordered the Trump administration to stopping immigration
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arrests without probable cause in Southern California. Now the judge said that DHS must
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develop guidance for officers to determine reasonable suspicion outside of the apparent race or ethnicity of
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a person, the language they speak or their accent presence at a particular location, such as a bus stop
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or the type of work one does. Obviously, if you're looking for those that you think may be here
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illegally, why would you not start with the obvious places, right? Why would you try to make those that
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are looking for them pretend that they don't know where they might be, even if they nab the wrong people?
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And then one more thing to throw at you is when the guns come in, why is there resistance? I don't
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understand that. And again, if they're not, if it doesn't say ICE and they don't make it clear who
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they are, I guess you could assume you're being attacked by 20 armed crazy gunmen. But even then,
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I don't think you stand a chance. So why the resistance? Why not just go through the, and again,
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it's easier for me to say, cause I'm not profiled. They're not going to grab me anytime soon.
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But if they do show up and you understand the mission, there's a lot of sense that Tom Holman is making
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in the defense of his agents, which also one thing he says is if you don't like the law,
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we're just here to enforce it. Talk to your congressman and get that changed. So I threw a
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lot at you. You're talking about his appearance. I think it was on the New York times daily podcast.
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Yeah. About a month ago. Yeah. Yeah. Or less through. Yeah. No, he made a lot of sense. I mean,
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but again, he not entirely. So, I mean, I can, I've already conceded many of the points he was making.
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I mean, yes. Well, let's talk about profiling. Cause that's sort of the new piece here.
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I mean, profiling is this loaded term, which I think is derails the conversation. People just
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assume it's unacceptable ethically in principle. I've never seen that. I mean, when you're,
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what you're talking about when you're profiling someone is using all the information, all the
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statistically relevant information you have at your disposal to figure out whether someone's worth
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paying attention to. Right. Now the downside of it is obvious. You wind up targeting people
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who are just similar to that sort of person who are, I also fit the profile or you can. And that
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is, you know, we have decided, I think, understandably that that is so undesirable
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socially in so many circumstances that we should be very slow to do it. But when the stakes are very
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high, when you're talking about terrorism, or you're talking about solving murders, right? I think
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the notion of profiling shouldn't be in anybody's head, right? Or if you're talking about personally
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avoiding crime oneself, you know, if you're a woman getting into an elevator alone and, you know,
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some guy gets on the elevator who makes you uncomfortable, right? You shouldn't be worrying
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about whether you're profiling him because you're, you know, the hair has stood up on the back of your
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neck, right? You should get off the fucking elevator if you're scared, right? So, I mean, that's,
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you have to use all the, when you get exactly one chance to make a mistake, you have to use
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all the information available to you. And, you know, the profiles wouldn't be useful if they
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weren't useful, right? It's just, we know a lot about the statistics of crime and with respect to
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specific crimes. I mean, let's make this dumb and inoffensive for people. It is totally appropriate
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to profile men for most violent crimes and to profile, you can talk about the crime of rape,
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right? You know, 99 times out of a hundred or, you know, 999 times out of a thousand,
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you're not looking for a woman perpetrator of a rape, right? It's just not a thing. Let's leave
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the trans issue aside. So, we all profile and the cops profile whether they can admit they're doing it
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or not. And we want them to accept when they're enforcing laws that we don't think they should be
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enforcing, right? I mean, this, and that's the problem here. They're enforcing a law, I will grant.
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They're looking for people who are here illegally, but I think we have a wider discussion that we need
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to have about whether we want them doing this in the first place. And, you know, half the country has
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said, yes, we do without having thought it through too much. I mean, again, without, we're talking about
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people here in many cases who have been here for more than a generation, who've done nothing but
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productive work that we have wanted them to do and that very few Americans, if any, want to do.
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And they have kids and grandkids here, right? And so, the most egregious spectacle, I think it was at
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a Home Depot, was of some guy getting really manhandled by the cops. I mean, I think actually
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punched. I mean, not just brought down hard and restrained, but I think he actually got punched in
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the face. I don't know what he was doing to resist arrest, but he had three sons, I think,
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in the military. I think three sons, maybe all of whom were, you know, served this nation as Marines.
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I think that was the actual fact. This is not the guy you want to be dragging to some detention center
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and throwing out of the country. It's so clearly not. And so, and I just feel like even the people
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who want to be hard on illegal immigration haven't thought this through.
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Yeah. I mean, obviously your point there, I mean, this father of three Marines is awful,
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but again, why the resisting arrest if that happened? And I understand it's an uncomfortable
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situation, but I still just don't understand the argument when the cops come or the ICE shows up
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with the guns, that the reaction is resisting arrest or throwing cinder blocks at heads or doing
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Leave the cinder blocks aside. I mean, so obviously there's no defense of that, but the resisting
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arrest piece becomes more and more plausible, the more we have to concede that we have a breakdown
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in the rule of law and in particular, the principle of due process, right? If someone starts to arrest me
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and I have absolutely no faith that I'm not going to wind up in a fucking gulag in El Salvador,
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right? With no recourse to a lawyer and with a president who says, I can't get him back.
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I, he's not covered by American law, right? That is the total unraveling of these, the social
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contract, right? So then I, it's totally plausible to me that someone would say, this is now a life
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and death struggle with, uh, again, and the other pieces you've got law enforcement, so-called law
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enforcement who are not showing up like law enforcement. They're, they're wearing masks right now. I
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understand that, that there's a, um, the issue of doxing and I get that the mask is perhaps a, um,
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if not an appropriate, a foreseeable response to that, but these guys are not behaving like law
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enforcement. They're not showing up with badges. They're showing up like they're expecting to
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encounter gunfire, right? And which is not at all plausible. I mean, this is like a, we're talking
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about a car wash and they're showing up like this is a house where they have somebody barricaded in
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who's claiming he's going to shoot his kids, his wife and himself if someone comes to the front door.
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Again, I think it's being done this way to terrorize a community, right? That's how you would do it if
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you were trying to terrorize a community. The way they should do it is they, somebody with a clipboard
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should show up at the car wash without any guys with guns and just inform the owner of the car
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wash. Listen, you've got, how many employees do you have here? We're concerned that you might have
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some who are here illegally. We're going to show up in 45 minutes and we want everyone to demonstrate
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their legal status. And if they can't, we're going to show up tomorrow and make sure they can. And
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anyone who's here illegally is going to go be put through some process where they have to see a judge
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and blah, blah, blah. But it's not going to be throwing people to the floor, whether they're
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legal or not, and putting guns in their faces. Yeah. And you don't think the element of surprise
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is helpful? I mean, if that happens, it might scatter. But there's no emergency here. Like, this is the
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thing. People are acting like the house is on fire and we have to get these people out. Otherwise, we're
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all going to die, right? This is not, I mean, first of all, for most of these people, we shouldn't be
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getting them out in the first place. But for people, so yes, if there's a real criminal,
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right? If there's a real member of MS-13 and we have his address, right? And we're worried that
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he's going to be armed. Okay. Use all of this, you know, movie magic police procedure and get in
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there. You kick in the door and, you know, guns drawn, et cetera. Fine. But that's not what is
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happening in most of these cases. The clock is not ticking, right? There's no crime you're solving at
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the car wash. There's no emergency. So turn down the temperature. And the fact that they're not
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doing that, the fact that they're doing nothing but turn it up, suggests to me that they have a
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different agenda. And when you listen to Stephen Miller talk about immigrants, you understand what
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that agenda is. He hates immigrants. You know, he's a racist asshole. There's just no, like, he's not even
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hiding it. And he's the genius behind our policy. Not to tip my hand, but damn, Sam, that was good.
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That's exactly what I wanted. Good. I mean, I, uh, I wanted to, uh, hear you explain the difference
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between, um, why, uh, resisting arrest, why, you know, if somebody pulls somebody over, but the
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difference here, I agree with you is that we have a president who's saying, I can't bring them back.
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And so that does explain why people say I'm innocent, but innocent people have been taken.
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So anyway, thanks for that. It's good when you get angry. Uh, not, not good for the app,
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but good for the podcast, by the way, I'm going to talk about the app in a little bit coming up,
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but I want to talk now. I want to move to another topic and talk about Jeffrey Epstein. What a mess.
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I, um, I have some thoughts that I want to hear you react to, but first I want to hear if you have
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anything that jumps off quickly. Uh, well, I think, so we spoke about this already. I think
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we thought that Jeffrey Epstein problem was going to go away, or at least I was talking about it
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before I realized just how concerned the MAGA faithful are about this thing. I mean, it really
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is kind of splitting the MAGA cult in a way that is, uh, I can't pretend not to be taking some
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pleasure. And as you know, I'm pretty allergic to conspiracy theories. Uh, I think they're often
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explained by just people connecting the dots in ways that are totally unprincipled, just,
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just adding up anomalies that don't all point in the same direction, but they just point toward
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anomalies. And then they just think that there's super geniuses conspiring perfectly and never
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getting caught behind the scenes in a way that never actually pans out in real life. This is not
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to say that there aren't ever conspiracies. It's just that they never take the form of the most
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popular conspiracy theories. And they're often found out, right? We know about them. This is just,
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you know, obviously we don't know about the ones we don't know about, but there's so much wrong with
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the style of thinking that delivers us most conspiracy theories.
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In Epstein's case, there's no question he was a super creep, right? I mean, we just know too much
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about his behavior to know that he was mistreating underage girls. And that was, you know, that was
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awful. And his, the failure of justice in his case left a lot of those victims, uh, without the
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satisfaction of seeing a guy actually get what he deserved. But once he was in jail, his motive to
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commit suicide was, is all too obvious, right? I mean, uh, just the, the, he should have been on
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suicide watch. I think he was supposed to have been on suicide watch for a reason, right? I mean,
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here you have a billionaire who's sleeping with, uh, you know, thousands of, of underage girls
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whom he desires for whatever reason, but living in every other way in ways that, you know, ordinary
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billionaires, uh, or near billionaires live. And now he's going to be sent to prison for probably the
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rest of his life and be treated by his fellow prisoners, like a pedophile, or be put in a
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solitary confinement for the rest of his life. So if anyone is, is liable to see the pointlessness
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of living another day on this earth and what, and what wants to hang himself, it's going to be
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Jeffrey Epstein alone in his cell. So none of that surprised me. The one thing I will give to the
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conspiracists who desperately want all the files to be released is that the Trump administration
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now is not behaving like an administration that has nothing to hide on this point. And the person
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who has something to hide almost certainly is Trump, right? I mean, there's no way Pam Bondi
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or Kash Patel are protecting anyone other than Trump in saying, trust us. There's nothing to see here.
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Please go away. We don't want to talk about this, right? Two things that the only person they could be
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protecting is Trump, really? They wouldn't be motivated to protect anyone else. And two,
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they are not talking like you would talk if there was nothing to hide, right? You could be much more
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verbose than you, than they are being if there's really nothing to hide. And their ineptitude
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in messaging around this, Trump's ineptitude and their ineptitude is strange, right?
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Yeah. It's a failure to manage the information here. I see that. I completely agree. But when
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you say Trump's hiding something, what do you imagine he's hiding? That he's fucking other
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women and it's embarrassing or that he's fucking underage women?
00:22:40.660
He's all over the Epstein files in ways. I mean, I have no reason to believe that he has a taste for
00:22:46.800
14-year-old girls, but I'm sure he has a taste for 18-year-old girls, right? And we know he's a total
00:22:54.980
pig. I mean, he's trailing, what, 20, something like 29 rape or sexual abuse allegations. He's
00:23:04.800
president and grabbed them by the pussy, right? So how is Trump going to behave alone on an island
00:23:10.640
with Jeffrey Epstein and a bunch of girls? Who knows, right? So I think Trump is quite likely to
00:23:18.620
be embarrassed by a full reading of the Epstein file. He's pretending to have had nothing to do with
00:23:24.440
him. We know he was friends with him for many years, right? I mean, at one point, I think Epstein
00:23:30.120
claimed that he was Trump's best friend and I don't have any reason to believe he was exaggerating
00:23:35.760
at that point. No, these guys go way back. There's a lot of time between these guys that
00:23:42.580
needs to be accounted for or could be accounted for and might be accounted for in those files. Now,
00:23:46.480
I don't think the MAGA cult that wants to see these files wants to see them because they think
00:23:51.300
it's going to destroy Trump. But I think the plausible interpretation of the administration's
00:23:57.360
behavior is the reason to shut the lid on this is because Trump is in the crosshairs. Again,
00:24:03.820
not, I have no reason to believe he's screwing 14-year-olds, but his association with Jeffrey
00:24:09.540
Epstein is very unlikely to have been benign. Yeah, I'll grant you that. I'm sure there's some
00:24:15.980
embarrassment there. I just don't believe that, I believe that the majority, if not all, of all the
00:24:22.340
names that we keep hearing mentioned are not having sex with underage girls. I guarantee you that Pam
00:24:28.940
Bondi isn't all clammed up because Trump has told her, you have to protect Bill Clinton and Bill Gates,
00:24:37.460
so just make this thing go away, right? That's not what's happening. The chance of that
00:24:43.060
is absolutely zero, right? And so, you know, Elon is almost certainly right about this, right? I mean,
00:24:49.840
let's remind everyone that Elon, you know, everyone's second favorite person over in MAGA
00:24:55.000
until 15 minutes ago, Elon just came out and said, the reason why this isn't out is because Trump is
00:25:02.440
going to be embarrassed, right? And he said it less decorously than that. So I'm sure that's probably
00:25:08.780
true. Yeah. No, again, I know that there's embarrassing stuff in there. I just don't think
00:25:13.900
it's what people think exists. And I don't even know what in there means. These guys are both super
00:25:19.100
creeps. The one advantage that Trump has, the one thing that's slightly exculpatory, is that as far as
00:25:26.520
I know, there's no, and actually, it's not that there's no evidence. There's very little evidence that
00:25:31.700
his super creepiness was focused on underage girls, except at the Miss America teen beauty pageant,
00:25:38.500
where he invaded the dressing room of underage girls as a, I think, 50-year-old man. So put that
00:25:44.960
in the balance. Yeah, it still strikes me as, you know, creepy uncle guy. There's a huge difference
00:25:50.020
between a guy taking a peek at those girls and doing something. Listen, you can be as charitable as
00:25:54.240
you want. I'm just saying that the fact that these guys logged lots of hours, so I saw Jeffrey
00:25:59.780
Epstein exactly once at the TED conference. I went to a lunch, and Jeffrey Epstein was at that
00:26:06.660
lunch, and I was introduced to him, and my spidey sense went off within two seconds of meeting him
00:26:14.760
that I never wanted to be in this guy's presence again right now. If you'd like to continue listening
00:26:20.780
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