Making Sense - Sam Harris - #424 — ＂More From Sam＂： Nazi Grok, ICE, Epstein, Social Media, Rapid Fire Questions

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're

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00:00:39.700 From Sam. Hi, Sam. Hey, good to see you. Good to see you too. As a reminder, the goal of this series

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00:01:54.400 prepared talk for the first part of the show. And in the second segment, he and I will sit down and do

00:01:58.500 a live episode of more from Sam. One of these things. And just to add one more thing, if you want

00:02:04.680 to see Sam on tour, this is probably the time to do it. I'm not saying 100% that Sam will never tour

00:02:10.240 again. What are you predicting? Death or infirmity? What's going on? I'm predicting,

00:02:14.760 I would not bet on you touring again in the future. It has taken me six years to convince you.

00:02:19.340 An unwillingness to tour? There's just no reason to do it other than to go and see your fans or have

00:02:24.620 them, give them a chance to see you. So it's taken me a long time to, I really, if I get to get any

00:02:30.240 credit here, I've been, I've been trying to get you to go out for a long time and we're going to do it.

00:02:36.660 And I don't know how successful I'll be beyond this tour. So if you want to, if you want to have

00:02:41.000 a fun night out and see Sam live, this is your chance to do that. Okay, let's get to our first

00:02:45.720 topic. Grok goes Nazi. Are you, uh, you surprised by this, Sam? Uh, is anyone surprised by Nazi AI over

00:02:53.000 at Grok? Grok is trained on the vomitorium that is X. It was Twitter. It presumably has access to

00:03:00.580 everything that has ever been said on Twitter. And now, you know, all the, uh, the outpouring of

00:03:05.980 neo-Nazi fanboy sentiment that we've witnessed on X, you know, that is its asymmetric advantage

00:03:12.960 that it's basically got its little corner of, you know, in-cell 4chan Elon stands to, uh, listen to.

00:03:20.560 I mean, obviously they've since put some kind of governor on it. So it's now apologizing for,

00:03:25.280 you know, for, for having recommended a second Holocaust and called itself Mecha Hitler, I think, 0.84

00:03:30.160 and, uh, Giga Chad. I mean, it's not surprising. I mean, maybe, maybe they can get the kinks worked 1.00

00:03:35.660 out, but this is a problem with AI generally, but I think it's a special concern about Grok. It's going

00:03:41.760 to mirror back to us what we have put into it, right? I mean, it's learning based on the data has

00:03:49.000 access to. And I mean, the only thing worse than this would be, you know, 4chan launching its own

00:03:55.180 AI, right? Which I guess is conceivable. I mean, who, who wants, who wants to plow a hundred billion

00:03:59.800 dollars into that, but now we have the department of defense apparently wanting to pay for this

00:04:04.260 work product. And, uh, it was, I think a $200 million contract that was just announced.

00:04:09.200 I guess, I guess, uh, I don't know. Can Nazi AI, uh, help the department of defense? Well, 0.62

00:04:15.160 I guess it remains to be seen. Okay. I want to move on to another topic. I want to get your current

00:04:19.360 thoughts on ICE, immigration, Stephen Miller, and anything related to that topic.

00:04:25.180 The immigration spectacle has really been just appalling. I mean, I, I'm sure it's happening 1.00

00:04:31.480 in other places that I haven't been paying attention to, but in California, it's just

00:04:35.280 obviously meant to be ruthless and cruel and disorienting and provocative, right? I just

00:04:41.600 say it's very hard to see it any other way. I mean, you can, I mean, bending over backwards

00:04:46.380 to be charitable to the administration, you can see the legitimacy insofar as we have these

00:04:54.140 laws. People are here either, they're either here illegally or not. If they're here illegally, 0.98

00:05:00.240 the federal government is entitled to enforce these laws. And in certain circumstances, they're

00:05:07.280 it's reasonable to expect that the locals are not going to be so compliant and therefore they need

00:05:13.640 to come in with, with some sort of show of force to at least be saved and keep their agents and

00:05:19.600 everyone else safe. Right. So again, I'm bending over backwards to be charitable here. But so if

00:05:24.340 you're going to connect all those dots and say, okay, it's not so anomalous to have the federal

00:05:28.760 government enforcing federal law and doing it in a way of, it's going to cut through any opposition.

00:05:36.660 And, you know, I really have nothing to say in defense of protesters who are going to throw

00:05:41.020 chunks of concrete at, you know, cops heads, right. And, and try to kill them. Right. I mean, 0.99

00:05:45.220 that's just obviously illegal and dangerous and those people need to be prosecuted. So the fact

00:05:50.300 that we're here with the federal government trying to enforce real laws against people who are really 0.98

00:05:55.720 here illegally is not on its face, insane or, or unethical, except the way they're doing it.

00:06:03.120 It seems designed to produce the reaction that they would then want to quell with yet more force.

00:06:10.140 And it's considered a win for, you know, kind of authoritarian approach to dealing with,

00:06:16.300 with so-called sanctuary cities or, or leftist, you know, local politics. Even if you agreed,

00:06:22.700 you wanted all these people out of the country, right. There has to be a more judicious, orderly

00:06:28.260 way to do it. Right. There's, there's no reason to surprise a car wash with 20 ice agents, guns drawn

00:06:35.060 and say, you know, get everyone, get down on the floor. And then in your rush to grab people who

00:06:40.640 are here illegally, who you've just profiled based on, you know, their ethnicity, you're grabbing

00:06:45.780 actual citizens and sending them off to detention centers too. Right. Who would be, and citizens who

00:06:50.800 are telling you that they have papers and you're not listening to them. Right. I mean, it's, it's just,

00:06:54.560 that's been the spectacle and it's so, it's creating so much fear in the community and so much disorder.

00:06:59.380 I mean, I know people who are citizens who are sending them, sending their kids to private schools

00:07:04.780 in Los Angeles, who, whose families are afraid to leave the house. It's like, this is not, this is

00:07:10.580 hitting everybody at every level. This is not just hitting people who are here illegally, but my real 0.96

00:07:15.900 position is most of the people who are here illegally are, have been drawn here based on an economic,

00:07:21.300 a tacit economic arrangement that we made with them a generation ago to work in industries where

00:07:27.100 Americans don't want to work. You know, where are all these American patriots who want to work at 1.00

00:07:31.540 car washes and pick strawberries? You know, they don't exist. And so we have a, we have an economy

00:07:37.860 built on this labor. There's dysfunction associated with that, obviously, but there's also, it's also

00:07:43.640 an arrangement that everyone has consciously made. And now you have people here who are adding to the

00:07:48.840 economy, really doing nothing but add to the economy, adding to the economy disproportionately insofar as

00:07:53.600 they don't, they pay into social security and they never take the benefits out. And many of them

00:07:59.140 have kids here who are citizens, right? So it's just the real, the appropriate response to all of

00:08:04.120 this was to close the border and to not let anyone in who we don't want in. Fine. I was always, I was 0.99

00:08:09.920 always in support of that, but then create some path to legitimacy here, you know, whether it's

00:08:16.400 citizenship or, you know, some appropriate legal work status and to do it in an orderly way.

00:08:22.080 And in the course of doing that, find all the people who are actually criminals, who nobody

00:08:27.520 wants here and deport those people. Everyone was for that, but this is a kind of a jackbooted and

00:08:34.240 obviously cruel approach to implementing a policy that is, you know, too extreme by half. And it was

00:08:43.860 completely unnecessary. What do you make of Tom Homan's explanation for some of the force that was

00:08:49.660 needed that they had wanted to get local governments to be supportive or cooperate? And they didn't.

00:08:58.760 And the reason why these guys come in with masks is because they have been doxed and he doesn't want

00:09:03.740 to see that happen to them. It's all an ugly scene, but he has a lot of explanations, some of which

00:09:09.820 makes sense for why they're doing what they're doing. I mean, obviously nabbing the wrong people.

00:09:14.140 I don't know if you saw, but I wanted to get your thoughts on this given. I know your position

00:09:18.820 on profiling, but a judge has recently ordered the Trump administration to stopping immigration

00:09:24.200 arrests without probable cause in Southern California. Now the judge said that DHS must

00:09:29.320 develop guidance for officers to determine reasonable suspicion outside of the apparent race or ethnicity of

00:09:35.560 a person, the language they speak or their accent presence at a particular location, such as a bus stop

00:09:42.000 or the type of work one does. Obviously, if you're looking for those that you think may be here

00:09:50.440 illegally, why would you not start with the obvious places, right? Why would you try to make those that

00:09:58.460 are looking for them pretend that they don't know where they might be, even if they nab the wrong people?

00:10:04.860 And then one more thing to throw at you is when the guns come in, why is there resistance? I don't

00:10:10.600 understand that. And again, if they're not, if it doesn't say ICE and they don't make it clear who

00:10:15.380 they are, I guess you could assume you're being attacked by 20 armed crazy gunmen. But even then,

00:10:23.700 I don't think you stand a chance. So why the resistance? Why not just go through the, and again,

00:10:28.500 it's easier for me to say, cause I'm not profiled. They're not going to grab me anytime soon.

00:10:32.760 But if they do show up and you understand the mission, there's a lot of sense that Tom Holman is making

00:10:38.660 in the defense of his agents, which also one thing he says is if you don't like the law,

00:10:42.560 we're just here to enforce it. Talk to your congressman and get that changed. So I threw a

00:10:46.840 lot at you. You're talking about his appearance. I think it was on the New York times daily podcast.

00:10:51.800 Yeah. About a month ago. Yeah. Yeah. Or less through. Yeah. No, he made a lot of sense. I mean,

00:10:55.300 but again, he not entirely. So, I mean, I can, I've already conceded many of the points he was making.

00:11:01.260 I mean, yes. Well, let's talk about profiling. Cause that's sort of the new piece here.

00:11:05.280 I mean, profiling is this loaded term, which I think is derails the conversation. People just

00:11:11.500 assume it's unacceptable ethically in principle. I've never seen that. I mean, when you're,

00:11:17.880 what you're talking about when you're profiling someone is using all the information, all the

00:11:23.500 statistically relevant information you have at your disposal to figure out whether someone's worth

00:11:28.940 paying attention to. Right. Now the downside of it is obvious. You wind up targeting people

00:11:35.060 who are just similar to that sort of person who are, I also fit the profile or you can. And that

00:11:42.320 is, you know, we have decided, I think, understandably that that is so undesirable

00:11:48.340 socially in so many circumstances that we should be very slow to do it. But when the stakes are very

00:11:53.980 high, when you're talking about terrorism, or you're talking about solving murders, right? I think

00:11:58.560 the notion of profiling shouldn't be in anybody's head, right? Or if you're talking about personally

00:12:03.200 avoiding crime oneself, you know, if you're a woman getting into an elevator alone and, you know,

00:12:10.160 some guy gets on the elevator who makes you uncomfortable, right? You shouldn't be worrying

00:12:15.620 about whether you're profiling him because you're, you know, the hair has stood up on the back of your

00:12:21.440 neck, right? You should get off the fucking elevator if you're scared, right? So, I mean, that's, 0.99

00:12:25.600 you have to use all the, when you get exactly one chance to make a mistake, you have to use

00:12:30.880 all the information available to you. And, you know, the profiles wouldn't be useful if they

00:12:35.520 weren't useful, right? It's just, we know a lot about the statistics of crime and with respect to

00:12:41.100 specific crimes. I mean, let's make this dumb and inoffensive for people. It is totally appropriate 0.97

00:12:47.160 to profile men for most violent crimes and to profile, you can talk about the crime of rape,

00:12:53.220 right? You know, 99 times out of a hundred or, you know, 999 times out of a thousand,

00:13:00.940 you're not looking for a woman perpetrator of a rape, right? It's just not a thing. Let's leave

00:13:06.680 the trans issue aside. So, we all profile and the cops profile whether they can admit they're doing it 1.00

00:13:14.400 or not. And we want them to accept when they're enforcing laws that we don't think they should be

00:13:19.780 enforcing, right? I mean, this, and that's the problem here. They're enforcing a law, I will grant.

00:13:25.020 They're looking for people who are here illegally, but I think we have a wider discussion that we need

00:13:30.620 to have about whether we want them doing this in the first place. And, you know, half the country has

00:13:35.920 said, yes, we do without having thought it through too much. I mean, again, without, we're talking about

00:13:41.700 people here in many cases who have been here for more than a generation, who've done nothing but

00:13:49.100 productive work that we have wanted them to do and that very few Americans, if any, want to do.

00:13:54.780 And they have kids and grandkids here, right? And so, the most egregious spectacle, I think it was at

00:14:01.660 a Home Depot, was of some guy getting really manhandled by the cops. I mean, I think actually

00:14:09.040 punched. I mean, not just brought down hard and restrained, but I think he actually got punched in

00:14:13.880 the face. I don't know what he was doing to resist arrest, but he had three sons, I think,

00:14:19.620 in the military. I think three sons, maybe all of whom were, you know, served this nation as Marines.

00:14:26.240 I think that was the actual fact. This is not the guy you want to be dragging to some detention center

00:14:31.860 and throwing out of the country. It's so clearly not. And so, and I just feel like even the people

00:14:36.460 who want to be hard on illegal immigration haven't thought this through.

00:14:40.120 Yeah. I mean, obviously your point there, I mean, this father of three Marines is awful,

00:14:45.420 but again, why the resisting arrest if that happened? And I understand it's an uncomfortable

00:14:50.320 situation, but I still just don't understand the argument when the cops come or the ICE shows up

00:14:55.960 with the guns, that the reaction is resisting arrest or throwing cinder blocks at heads or doing

00:15:00.120 any of that instead of just saying, look, I'm-

00:15:02.260 Leave the cinder blocks aside. I mean, so obviously there's no defense of that, but the resisting

00:15:06.320 arrest piece becomes more and more plausible, the more we have to concede that we have a breakdown

00:15:12.700 in the rule of law and in particular, the principle of due process, right? If someone starts to arrest me

00:15:19.280 and I have absolutely no faith that I'm not going to wind up in a fucking gulag in El Salvador, 0.99

00:15:24.980 right? With no recourse to a lawyer and with a president who says, I can't get him back. 0.99

00:15:30.180 I, he's not covered by American law, right? That is the total unraveling of these, the social

00:15:36.660 contract, right? So then I, it's totally plausible to me that someone would say, this is now a life

00:15:42.700 and death struggle with, uh, again, and the other pieces you've got law enforcement, so-called law

00:15:47.920 enforcement who are not showing up like law enforcement. They're, they're wearing masks right now. I

00:15:52.560 understand that, that there's a, um, the issue of doxing and I get that the mask is perhaps a, um,

00:16:00.720 if not an appropriate, a foreseeable response to that, but these guys are not behaving like law

00:16:06.120 enforcement. They're not showing up with badges. They're showing up like they're expecting to

00:16:10.940 encounter gunfire, right? And which is not at all plausible. I mean, this is like a, we're talking

00:16:16.240 about a car wash and they're showing up like this is a house where they have somebody barricaded in

00:16:23.920 who's claiming he's going to shoot his kids, his wife and himself if someone comes to the front door.

00:16:28.380 Again, I think it's being done this way to terrorize a community, right? That's how you would do it if

00:16:35.620 you were trying to terrorize a community. The way they should do it is they, somebody with a clipboard

00:16:40.620 should show up at the car wash without any guys with guns and just inform the owner of the car

00:16:47.080 wash. Listen, you've got, how many employees do you have here? We're concerned that you might have

00:16:51.100 some who are here illegally. We're going to show up in 45 minutes and we want everyone to demonstrate

00:16:57.720 their legal status. And if they can't, we're going to show up tomorrow and make sure they can. And

00:17:02.700 anyone who's here illegally is going to go be put through some process where they have to see a judge

00:17:07.300 and blah, blah, blah. But it's not going to be throwing people to the floor, whether they're

00:17:11.880 legal or not, and putting guns in their faces. Yeah. And you don't think the element of surprise

00:17:17.100 is helpful? I mean, if that happens, it might scatter. But there's no emergency here. Like, this is the

00:17:22.220 thing. People are acting like the house is on fire and we have to get these people out. Otherwise, we're

00:17:28.140 all going to die, right? This is not, I mean, first of all, for most of these people, we shouldn't be

00:17:33.600 getting them out in the first place. But for people, so yes, if there's a real criminal,

00:17:39.340 right? If there's a real member of MS-13 and we have his address, right? And we're worried that

00:17:44.780 he's going to be armed. Okay. Use all of this, you know, movie magic police procedure and get in

00:17:51.580 there. You kick in the door and, you know, guns drawn, et cetera. Fine. But that's not what is

00:17:56.860 happening in most of these cases. The clock is not ticking, right? There's no crime you're solving at

00:18:02.340 the car wash. There's no emergency. So turn down the temperature. And the fact that they're not

00:18:08.580 doing that, the fact that they're doing nothing but turn it up, suggests to me that they have a

00:18:13.320 different agenda. And when you listen to Stephen Miller talk about immigrants, you understand what

00:18:17.420 that agenda is. He hates immigrants. You know, he's a racist asshole. There's just no, like, he's not even 0.93

00:18:22.740 hiding it. And he's the genius behind our policy. Not to tip my hand, but damn, Sam, that was good.

00:18:29.320 That's exactly what I wanted. Good. I mean, I, uh, I wanted to, uh, hear you explain the difference 0.98

00:18:36.260 between, um, why, uh, resisting arrest, why, you know, if somebody pulls somebody over, but the

00:18:41.640 difference here, I agree with you is that we have a president who's saying, I can't bring them back.

00:18:46.680 And so that does explain why people say I'm innocent, but innocent people have been taken.

00:18:51.360 So anyway, thanks for that. It's good when you get angry. Uh, not, not good for the app,

00:18:56.320 but good for the podcast, by the way, I'm going to talk about the app in a little bit coming up,

00:19:00.760 but I want to talk now. I want to move to another topic and talk about Jeffrey Epstein. What a mess.

00:19:06.480 I, um, I have some thoughts that I want to hear you react to, but first I want to hear if you have

00:19:11.140 anything that jumps off quickly. Uh, well, I think, so we spoke about this already. I think

00:19:15.300 we thought that Jeffrey Epstein problem was going to go away, or at least I was talking about it

00:19:21.120 before I realized just how concerned the MAGA faithful are about this thing. I mean, it really

00:19:27.400 is kind of splitting the MAGA cult in a way that is, uh, I can't pretend not to be taking some

00:19:33.260 pleasure. And as you know, I'm pretty allergic to conspiracy theories. Uh, I think they're often

00:19:38.160 explained by just people connecting the dots in ways that are totally unprincipled, just,

00:19:43.060 just adding up anomalies that don't all point in the same direction, but they just point toward

00:19:46.860 anomalies. And then they just think that there's super geniuses conspiring perfectly and never

00:19:52.920 getting caught behind the scenes in a way that never actually pans out in real life. This is not

00:19:58.180 to say that there aren't ever conspiracies. It's just that they never take the form of the most

00:20:04.320 popular conspiracy theories. And they're often found out, right? We know about them. This is just,

00:20:10.080 you know, obviously we don't know about the ones we don't know about, but there's so much wrong with

00:20:13.500 the style of thinking that delivers us most conspiracy theories.

00:20:16.860 In Epstein's case, there's no question he was a super creep, right? I mean, we just know too much

00:20:21.360 about his behavior to know that he was mistreating underage girls. And that was, you know, that was

00:20:26.580 awful. And his, the failure of justice in his case left a lot of those victims, uh, without the

00:20:33.260 satisfaction of seeing a guy actually get what he deserved. But once he was in jail, his motive to

00:20:41.220 commit suicide was, is all too obvious, right? I mean, uh, just the, the, he should have been on

00:20:46.780 suicide watch. I think he was supposed to have been on suicide watch for a reason, right? I mean,

00:20:50.600 here you have a billionaire who's sleeping with, uh, you know, thousands of, of underage girls

00:20:55.520 whom he desires for whatever reason, but living in every other way in ways that, you know, ordinary

00:21:02.220 billionaires, uh, or near billionaires live. And now he's going to be sent to prison for probably the

00:21:09.220 rest of his life and be treated by his fellow prisoners, like a pedophile, or be put in a

00:21:14.080 solitary confinement for the rest of his life. So if anyone is, is liable to see the pointlessness

00:21:19.580 of living another day on this earth and what, and what wants to hang himself, it's going to be

00:21:23.540 Jeffrey Epstein alone in his cell. So none of that surprised me. The one thing I will give to the

00:21:29.300 conspiracists who desperately want all the files to be released is that the Trump administration

00:21:35.560 now is not behaving like an administration that has nothing to hide on this point. And the person

00:21:43.280 who has something to hide almost certainly is Trump, right? I mean, there's no way Pam Bondi

00:21:50.040 or Kash Patel are protecting anyone other than Trump in saying, trust us. There's nothing to see here.

00:21:57.460 Please go away. We don't want to talk about this, right? Two things that the only person they could be

00:22:02.240 protecting is Trump, really? They wouldn't be motivated to protect anyone else. And two,

00:22:08.780 they are not talking like you would talk if there was nothing to hide, right? You could be much more

00:22:15.260 verbose than you, than they are being if there's really nothing to hide. And their ineptitude

00:22:21.860 in messaging around this, Trump's ineptitude and their ineptitude is strange, right?

00:22:28.960 Yeah. It's a failure to manage the information here. I see that. I completely agree. But when

00:22:34.040 you say Trump's hiding something, what do you imagine he's hiding? That he's fucking other 0.99

00:22:37.600 women and it's embarrassing or that he's fucking underage women? 1.00

00:22:40.660 He's all over the Epstein files in ways. I mean, I have no reason to believe that he has a taste for 0.99

00:22:46.800 14-year-old girls, but I'm sure he has a taste for 18-year-old girls, right? And we know he's a total

00:22:54.980 pig. I mean, he's trailing, what, 20, something like 29 rape or sexual abuse allegations. He's 1.00

00:23:04.800 president and grabbed them by the pussy, right? So how is Trump going to behave alone on an island 1.00

00:23:10.640 with Jeffrey Epstein and a bunch of girls? Who knows, right? So I think Trump is quite likely to

00:23:18.620 be embarrassed by a full reading of the Epstein file. He's pretending to have had nothing to do with

00:23:24.440 him. We know he was friends with him for many years, right? I mean, at one point, I think Epstein

00:23:30.120 claimed that he was Trump's best friend and I don't have any reason to believe he was exaggerating

00:23:35.760 at that point. No, these guys go way back. There's a lot of time between these guys that

00:23:42.580 needs to be accounted for or could be accounted for and might be accounted for in those files. Now,

00:23:46.480 I don't think the MAGA cult that wants to see these files wants to see them because they think

00:23:51.300 it's going to destroy Trump. But I think the plausible interpretation of the administration's

00:23:57.360 behavior is the reason to shut the lid on this is because Trump is in the crosshairs. Again,

00:24:03.820 not, I have no reason to believe he's screwing 14-year-olds, but his association with Jeffrey 0.79

00:24:09.540 Epstein is very unlikely to have been benign. Yeah, I'll grant you that. I'm sure there's some 0.57

00:24:15.980 embarrassment there. I just don't believe that, I believe that the majority, if not all, of all the

00:24:22.340 names that we keep hearing mentioned are not having sex with underage girls. I guarantee you that Pam

00:24:28.940 Bondi isn't all clammed up because Trump has told her, you have to protect Bill Clinton and Bill Gates,

00:24:37.460 so just make this thing go away, right? That's not what's happening. The chance of that

00:24:43.060 is absolutely zero, right? And so, you know, Elon is almost certainly right about this, right? I mean,

00:24:49.840 let's remind everyone that Elon, you know, everyone's second favorite person over in MAGA

00:24:55.000 until 15 minutes ago, Elon just came out and said, the reason why this isn't out is because Trump is

00:25:02.440 going to be embarrassed, right? And he said it less decorously than that. So I'm sure that's probably

00:25:08.780 true. Yeah. No, again, I know that there's embarrassing stuff in there. I just don't think

00:25:13.900 it's what people think exists. And I don't even know what in there means. These guys are both super

00:25:19.100 creeps. The one advantage that Trump has, the one thing that's slightly exculpatory, is that as far as

00:25:26.520 I know, there's no, and actually, it's not that there's no evidence. There's very little evidence that

00:25:31.700 his super creepiness was focused on underage girls, except at the Miss America teen beauty pageant,

00:25:38.500 where he invaded the dressing room of underage girls as a, I think, 50-year-old man. So put that

00:25:44.960 in the balance. Yeah, it still strikes me as, you know, creepy uncle guy. There's a huge difference

00:25:50.020 between a guy taking a peek at those girls and doing something. Listen, you can be as charitable as

00:25:54.240 you want. I'm just saying that the fact that these guys logged lots of hours, so I saw Jeffrey

00:25:59.780 Epstein exactly once at the TED conference. I went to a lunch, and Jeffrey Epstein was at that

00:26:06.660 lunch, and I was introduced to him, and my spidey sense went off within two seconds of meeting him

00:26:14.760 that I never wanted to be in this guy's presence again right now. If you'd like to continue listening

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - July 16, 2025

#424 — ＂More From Sam＂： Nazi Grok, ICE, Epstein, Social Media, Rapid Fire Questions

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