Making Sense - Sam Harris - August 22, 2025


#430 — “More From Sam”： Trump, Gavin Newsom, Class War, DOGE, & Rapid Fire Questions


Episode Stats

Length

15 minutes

Words per Minute

186.02272

Word Count

2,849

Sentence Count

168


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're
00:00:11.740 hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing
00:00:15.720 the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense
00:00:20.060 Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore
00:00:26.240 it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're
00:00:30.200 doing here, please consider becoming one. Welcome back to another episode of More From Sam.
00:00:39.320 Hi, Sam. How are you? Good to see you. Here's me. More of me. Yeah, there's more. As a reminder,
00:00:45.080 the goal of this series is to get more from Sam more often, and since we've been getting a lot
00:00:48.400 more of you lately, Sam, we haven't had an episode for a while. Along with subscriber input, I may
00:00:53.160 issue my own positions, exaggerated versions of my positions, or play devil's advocate and jump
00:00:58.080 between them seamlessly, and because I'm here in service of Sam, your ideas. I may also abandon
00:01:02.680 any position I authentically hold if I think I can get more from you. Thank you again to all our
00:01:07.160 subscribers for submitting your questions and comments. If you'd like to submit topics for a
00:01:11.380 future episode, you'll need to become a subscriber, and you can do that at samharris.org. And one more
00:01:16.520 announcement quickly. Sam currently has five shows on sale. Seattle, San Jose, New York, Boston,
00:01:20.760 and Chicago. I think Boston is sold out. There might be a few remaining tickets in New York,
00:01:25.040 and you can find all the details and ticket links at samharris.org. Okay, on to our first topic.
00:01:31.680 Is it fair to say that what concerns you most about Trump is what's yet to come? What happens
00:01:35.600 to our country after Trump? What happens to our democracy going forward? No, no. I'm concerned about
00:01:42.820 what's already happened. I think our democracy has eroded to an impressive degree that a few people
00:01:49.880 right of center seem prepared to acknowledge. I think when you have senators and congresspeople
00:01:55.020 not voting their conscience in the aftermath of January 6th because they're afraid they might be
00:01:59.720 killed or their families might be killed, something has gone wrong with our democracy, right? That's a
00:02:04.400 very new spot on the map, and it's quite close to tyranny, frankly. And that's years ago, right? That's
00:02:13.740 where we're coming from there. I'm more wondering if you're concerned that it's going to get worse
00:02:19.040 from here, meaning what Trump is doing now and where we are now. Are you not more concerned with
00:02:24.060 what does the future look like? Well, yeah. If the future gets worse, that's obviously a bad thing,
00:02:30.140 and I'm worried about that. But really, all of my criticism of Trump is based on what has already
00:02:37.240 happened. None of it is hypothetical. I mean, yes, I have on the hypothetical side of the ledger,
00:02:43.260 I have all these things I'm worried about, right? I mean, you know, because we don't know what
00:02:47.420 challenges we're going to face as a society going forward, but we know having a greedy, incompetent,
00:02:54.580 self-dealing ignoramus in charge is not optimal. We're putting him in a room with Putin, right,
00:03:01.300 to try to negotiate the end of a war in Europe. He's one of the last people I could think who's
00:03:07.460 qualified to do that. I mean, first, he's showing every sign of being easily manipulated by Putin,
00:03:12.280 and by default, he's anchored to Putin's view of the history of that war, right? He literally spouts
00:03:19.600 old Kremlin talking points in how he describes the war in Ukraine. He sounds like a guy who's
00:03:27.600 really thinking about what a great real estate deal he might do in Moscow when this whole thing
00:03:31.540 is over, right? I mean, if that's what was the only thing going on in his brain, if you could have
00:03:35.940 some South Park episode that showed the condo deal he was really worried about invading his entire
00:03:43.180 frontal cortex, that would explain it. But he pretends he's strong, but he's the most easily
00:03:49.420 manipulated president we've ever had. And again, he's anchored, his bias is on the side of, in this
00:03:57.840 case, the dictator who launched a war of aggression into Europe. Well, speaking of that, Hillary Clinton
00:04:03.740 said she'd nominate Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize if he helped broker an end of the war without
00:04:07.880 capitulating to Putin. Would you? Well, that final phrase is crucial, right? Without capitulating to
00:04:12.840 Putin. Of course. Let's see how that goes. Right. But if he did, would you support nominating him
00:04:18.800 for Nobel Peace Prize? I mean, yeah, but who cares? I mean, the Nobel Peace Prize has been so devalued.
00:04:23.700 I mean, Obama got it before he did anything, right? It's a farce. Arafat got it, right? Well,
00:04:28.400 what we know about Arafat's contributions to peace in the Middle East. I mean, nobody should care about
00:04:34.140 the Nobel Peace Prize. He gets a peace prize for refraining from killing anyone. That was the bar
00:04:39.780 there. You've often mentioned that when Trump is out, we're going to need to rewrite the laws
00:04:43.880 and change everything in order to keep this from happening again, right? You know what I'm talking
00:04:48.820 about? Where you'll say, like, on a go-forward basis, let's shore up the norms and make rules that
00:04:53.780 avoid the loopholes from being exploited? Yeah, I have no hope we're going to actually do that.
00:04:58.340 But yes, I think one of the things we realize is that we have norms that are shoring up our
00:05:04.100 democracy in places where we really should have laws. I mean, because the fact that we don't have
00:05:10.120 laws and we only have norms testifies to the assumption that people aren't going to traduce
00:05:15.420 those norms for corrupt or otherwise self-serving reasons. But Trump has broken all that,
00:05:22.100 all that kind of invisible structure. So yeah, we need real structure that makes it illegal to
00:05:27.160 do certain things. You shouldn't be able to launch a cryptocurrency that is just a mechanism by which
00:05:33.480 you can take bribes from the entire world and enrich yourself to the tune of billions of dollars
00:05:38.520 and use U.S. foreign policy and tariff policy so as to do that better, right? Like there should,
00:05:45.400 there's no, apparently there's, you know, it remains to be seen, I guess maybe, maybe one of
00:05:48.820 these court cases is explicitly on that point, but it remains to be seen whether any of that stuff is
00:05:55.240 illegal. Right. The problem I see with having to rewrite the laws is that anytime you enter into
00:05:59.900 any sort of agreement with somebody, a contract is only as good as the people that are involved.
00:06:04.420 There's a lot of good faith that's required. Well, that's not true. A real contract that's
00:06:08.580 enforceable by law has at the end of it, when you don't live up to your end of it, people with guns
00:06:14.480 showing up at your house and sticking those guns in your face. Of course, I understand that. I'm
00:06:18.700 saying that generally speaking, when you enter into agreement with somebody, if you're going to
00:06:22.280 make a deal with somebody, there's a spirit that you're trying to pay attention to. Instead, the idea,
00:06:28.340 what I'm getting at is that the history of the success of our country has come from the respect,
00:06:35.820 the relationship between the founding documents and its executors. And now we're being forced to
00:06:40.580 rewrite everything to protect ourselves against the enemy within. And that's sort of not really
00:06:45.900 the point. The point is, if you have to enter an agreement with somebody and you have to...
00:06:49.540 No, it's become the point. And this was something that the founding fathers, I think it was,
00:06:53.960 I think it was Madison somewhere, anticipated this explicitly. Like, well, you can't have an evil
00:06:59.760 person in the role of the chief executive and expect this system to work. I forget how it was put,
00:07:06.680 but there's some lines to that effect. It should be foreseeable. I mean, we're capable of being so
00:07:13.600 confused and so at odds with one another that the creative and not boring demagogue can win 51% of
00:07:23.020 the vote. Okay. So now we know that about ourselves and the rest of the world knows it too.
00:07:27.380 All right. I'm going to change topics on you.
00:07:29.640 Yeah.
00:07:30.040 Unless you have anything else to add there about Trump.
00:07:31.700 Well, this is just, you now need to price in all of the damage that has been done to our
00:07:37.000 reputation. I mean, even if we get rid of Trump and we don't elect the opportunist J.D. Vance in
00:07:43.580 2028, and we get some sane and ethical president, Republican or Democrat, and we try to reset the
00:07:54.660 world's expectations, it's very hard to see how we do that. And we have announced to the world that
00:07:59.560 we potentially stand for nothing other than the whims of the next guy or gal we put in office.
00:08:05.060 Right. Right. Well, I did like the take that you and Ann Applebaum discussed, which J.D. Vance,
00:08:10.800 the idea that he's sort of like tofu, or he sort of takes on the flavor of whatever room he's in at
00:08:16.140 any given time. That was interesting. All right. Let's move to Newsom. I know we debated this a few
00:08:22.440 months ago, but I'm going to say it again. Gavin Newsom is going to be the Democratic candidate for
00:08:26.580 2028. Any updated thoughts there? No. I'm just, I will wait and say, I mean, I just can't imagine
00:08:33.580 that's a winning ticket. I'm not disputing the guy's talent and charisma in certain contexts,
00:08:40.440 but I just think it's too much baggage to sell to 49 other states. Yeah. I mean, but what else,
00:08:47.580 what worse could we hear about Newsom at this point? Well, we can't, but we know that 49 other
00:08:52.220 states and their inhabitants more or less despise him. Right. I mean, I haven't seen national
00:08:57.800 polling, but I, I'd be willing to bet that forget about him as a, as a person and his, his, um,
00:09:04.820 his Clintonian indiscretions. It's just the bad PR baggage that California as a state has for the
00:09:10.920 rest of the country. I mean, I think a lot of that PR is misinformation at this point, but it's fairly
00:09:16.360 indelible, right? People think California is virtually a failed state. It's like the number
00:09:21.960 four economy on earth at this point. And it subsidizes all the dysfunction of the 49 other
00:09:27.720 states, but the other states think California sucks. Yeah. I think Gavin makes that case really
00:09:32.880 well. And I think he'll have to stand behind some of it. That's no match for the, the, uh, Vox Pop
00:09:39.360 interview with the homeless addict in downtown LA or downtown San Francisco who says, yeah, it's so great
00:09:46.280 here. They gave me a lawn chair and all the fentanyl I can take. And it's, it's awesome.
00:09:50.840 Right. California go California. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I think we need, we're going to need somebody
00:09:56.400 who is as shameless as he is. And he's really a great communicator. He's got a lot of talents.
00:10:02.380 Again, I'm not a fan of his, but I can just see what he's doing and whoever's working with him behind
00:10:07.920 the scenes and advising him, or if it's him, I just don't see that anyone else is playing that level
00:10:13.400 of Trump politics from the left, you know, that style. But again, who is he going to convince?
00:10:19.960 Right. I mean, it's just, you have to picture people who voted for Trump now voting for Newsom
00:10:25.380 and that only one or 2%. Yeah. But I think he's handsome enough and communicates well,
00:10:30.600 and he'll be able to put out enough good content that he persuades him. Anyway,
00:10:34.020 we don't have to get stuck on this. I'm just, I'm planning my flag. Talk to me in a year about that.
00:10:38.040 I may have another thought. I want to come back to your,
00:10:40.320 your hobby horse for a second and discuss wealth inequality and make two entry points for you. As
00:10:45.800 Scott Galloway has publicly stated a number of times, and I know you share this belief,
00:10:48.940 if you hit your number, 50 million, a hundred million, 250, whatever it is,
00:10:52.480 and then you don't start enjoying it by spending it on friends and family and being charitable and
00:10:56.280 helping others, then you're really missing out on the greatest joy of having wealth, right?
00:11:01.740 And the second part is rich people should be most invested in keeping the pitchforks from the
00:11:06.860 gates. They have won the lottery. So maybe stop building compounds and invest in communities.
00:11:12.400 Thoughts? Yeah. Well, so I'd be to take it from the top down. I mean, the ultra rich people who
00:11:16.900 don't think they have a stake in the common good and who think they can just jet off to New Zealand
00:11:22.240 if things ever get really tough here. I mean, that's one, it's just patently delusional.
00:11:28.340 I was like, I mean, if you're gaming out those end of the world scenarios, you know,
00:11:32.300 you have to think of who's going to protect you and who you're going to just, your pilot on your
00:11:39.200 private plane is not going to leave without his family to go to New Zealand when the world ends,
00:11:44.700 right? So you need to take the pilot's family. And what about your bodyguard's family? And who's
00:11:50.320 going to protect you from your bodyguards when your bodyguards understand that you really have
00:11:53.920 no power now. You're just a guy who bought this compound in New Zealand. It's a ridiculous end game
00:11:59.680 to think that you can privately ensure your survival when the shit really hits the fan,
00:12:05.560 right? So you have as much a stake in civilization not failing as anyone else, as anyone who doesn't
00:12:13.880 have nearly the resources you have. You should have more of a stake.
00:12:17.480 We have more of a stake, yeah, because life is or should be so good, right? And like you won the game,
00:12:22.000 right? Like you should be nothing but dessert at this point. So the fact that they don't see that
00:12:27.220 and they're wasting any time, rather than shoring up civil society and improving the government in
00:12:33.580 all kinds of ways that we should improve it, they're engaged in this private effort, like this
00:12:38.860 concierge prepping for the apocalypse. That just seems crazy and just a frank misappropriation of
00:12:45.720 their moral capital and to say nothing of their actual capital. But yeah, I mean, in addition to that,
00:12:51.700 they should be much more generous in trying to build a functional society wherein other people
00:12:59.080 are happy and secure, right? I mean, they have a stake in other people seeing their dreams realized,
00:13:07.100 right? I mean, do you want to be surrounded by desperate, angry, envious people? Or do you want
00:13:11.840 to be surrounded by people who are basically happy and thriving? And the answer is so obvious.
00:13:17.420 At any level of wealth, it's so obvious. Now, what's really corrupt here is that we all have a
00:13:23.240 sense, an understandable sense, that our tax dollars are often wasted, right? They're spent on things that
00:13:29.700 we wouldn't approve of if we could kind of line item veto some of these expenditures. We all have this
00:13:38.040 some version of a doge idiot in our head. Now, some of that is probably totally unrealistic and
00:13:45.700 irrational, right? I mean, I'm sure one of the lessons of doge is that there's far less fraud
00:13:52.000 and waste in government than anyone suspected, right? I mean, they went in there just guns blazing
00:13:57.320 looking for fraud, and they found like $15 worth, and then they just started cutting good projects to
00:14:03.140 the bone and alienating every person who's working for the government, and many of whom are quite
00:14:09.320 talented and could be working in the private sector and are taking a significant pay cut to serve the
00:14:14.720 country. I'm not saying I don't think there's waste in government, and I'm not saying that I don't
00:14:19.020 think we could spend our tax dollars more wisely, but what we need is a judicious and transparent and
00:14:25.800 nonpartisan and sane look at all that, not some dummy on ketamine with a chainsaw and bad sunglasses.
00:14:34.460 You can't privatize everything. It's the government that's going to fight our wars. It's the government
00:14:39.200 that's going to tell us what the hell to do when the next pandemic happens. It's the government that
00:14:42.880 needs to make sure the food supply and the drug supply.
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00:15:12.880 Thank you.
00:15:17.180 Thank you.
00:15:17.760 Thank you.
00:15:18.680 Thank you.