Making Sense - Sam Harris - #45

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.820 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.880 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber

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00:00:46.680 So I put out a call for questions for this podcast on social media and got literally thousands.

00:00:55.440 That level of response is just amazing.

00:00:58.360 Needless to say, I will only be able to answer the tiniest fraction of them.

00:01:03.340 All I can say is that I hope people don't get discouraged by this.

00:01:07.020 Please just keep asking your questions whenever I put out a call for an AMA and Ask Me Anything

00:01:11.980 podcast.

00:01:13.420 And eventually, your question or something similar will get addressed.

00:01:17.260 In fact, I often get many questions on the same topic, and rather than answer any specific

00:01:22.280 one, I just fuse a bunch of them together, which I've done here in many cases.

00:01:25.760 There were many questions about meditation practice that strike me as too esoteric for

00:01:32.440 the podcast.

00:01:33.720 I don't want to assume an interest in meditation that is deeper or broader than it actually

00:01:38.340 is.

00:01:39.060 So those are the kinds of questions I'll deal with in my meditation app that is still being

00:01:44.300 born.

00:01:44.640 Many of you have asked about an ETA on the app.

00:01:48.540 Where the hell is it?

00:01:50.500 Apologies again.

00:01:51.460 This is coming more slowly than I expected.

00:01:54.080 But it really is coming.

00:01:55.960 And in addition to guided meditations, the app will have short talks on relevant topics.

00:02:01.020 So there'll be an expanding curriculum of meditations and lessons that I'm really looking forward

00:02:07.080 to building.

00:02:07.480 But the platform has to be working first, and it is coming along.

00:02:12.720 I'm hoping to start a beta test in the next couple of weeks, and I know I said that a

00:02:16.940 couple of months ago, but sometimes things take as long as they take.

00:02:21.080 In fact, they always do.

00:02:23.300 I'm not sure how big the beta test will be.

00:02:25.380 I'll probably limit it to 100 people or so.

00:02:28.340 But I will keep you all posted.

00:02:30.080 And once I have something to share on that front, I will not be shy about it.

00:02:33.440 Because I'm very excited about this.

00:02:34.660 I'm hoping all of you will find this very useful.

00:02:38.420 Also, Richard Dawkins and I are doing two events in Los Angeles on November 1st and 2nd.

00:02:44.420 Just to clarify how this came about, Richard was doing a speaking tour and was inviting

00:02:48.800 people to be in dialogue with him in various cities, and I agreed to do L.A., and that event

00:02:55.900 sold out almost immediately.

00:02:57.400 So we decided to add an extra night.

00:02:59.980 I don't know if there'll still be tickets for the second night when this podcast airs,

00:03:04.280 but you could check the Center for Inquiry website for that.

00:03:08.500 But many, many of you have asked whether we could do this event in a city closer to you.

00:03:14.040 Unfortunately, that's not going to happen.

00:03:15.440 Richard had this speaking tour already set up, and I'm really just joining it at the last

00:03:20.540 minute for this one stop.

00:03:22.480 All proceeds from these events go to support the Center for Inquiry and Richard's Foundation.

00:03:26.780 And I think one or both of these events will be videotaped.

00:03:30.460 And whether or not they are, I'm hoping to release the audio from one or both events on

00:03:34.740 the podcast, or a compilation of the best parts.

00:03:38.480 So you will get to hear these conversations in some form, I am confident.

00:03:43.240 Needless to say, I'm looking forward to sharing the stage with Richard again.

00:03:46.640 It has been several years since that happened, so it does not happen enough.

00:03:51.160 And as the date approaches, I might ask all of you to suggest topics we should talk about.

00:03:57.120 And I will do that by the usual channels.

00:04:00.240 Today also happens to be the 15th anniversary of September 11th.

00:04:05.580 And that's always a heavy day.

00:04:08.760 And also seems like the wrong day to talk about some of the things I am talking about.

00:04:14.560 Most of the questions that came in were not cognizant of the anniversary, nor was I in soliciting

00:04:20.900 them.

00:04:21.280 So talking about Brazilian jiu-jitsu and free will, and my collision with Hannibal Buress

00:04:28.840 doesn't quite seem thematically correct for the day.

00:04:32.580 But this is the day that's given to me to get this podcast done, and the questions hit

00:04:38.700 topics of that sort.

00:04:39.800 So I will do my best here.

00:04:42.680 One question I noticed on Twitter, I think it was Twitter last night, one of you asked,

00:04:47.560 15 years ago today, how did you think you would spend the next 15 years?

00:04:53.460 That's pretty interesting for me to think about, because what I've done for the last 15

00:04:57.180 years really has been defined by September 11th to, I think, an unusual degree.

00:05:04.180 I was in the middle of my PhD at UCLA at the time, and just getting into my research, and

00:05:11.500 then just found myself writing The End of Faith, and it was really, that book was not going

00:05:17.440 to be denied.

00:05:18.640 It led to me being more or less AWOL from my PhD for four years or so.

00:05:24.200 And things would be different.

00:05:26.020 It's kind of easy to answer that question looking at the books.

00:05:29.200 I think I could really see myself having written, Waking Up, Free Will, and Lying, and The Moral

00:05:37.480 Landscape.

00:05:38.660 And in most respects, those would have been the same books.

00:05:42.500 But certainly The End of Faith, and Letter to a Christian Nation, and Islam and the Future

00:05:48.100 of Tolerance, and everything I've had to think and say about organized religion, that probably

00:05:54.860 wasn't in the cards.

00:05:55.760 As I've said before, I never even thought of myself as an atheist.

00:06:00.940 I was an atheist, but my life was not organized in defiance of religion in any way.

00:06:07.780 So that's obviously a major disruption of what I would have otherwise done.

00:06:14.060 And in some sense, I feel like I am just getting back to the things that really interest me very

00:06:19.900 slowly over the course of decades.

00:06:21.580 But the kinds of conversations I've been having on this podcast with physicists and philosophers

00:06:27.400 and diverse intellectuals that don't necessarily take me toward the topic of theocracy and irrational

00:06:37.760 religious beliefs.

00:06:39.360 Those are conversations in which I certainly recognize my former self, and it makes me very

00:06:44.160 happy to get a chance to have those conversations.

00:06:46.380 So, yeah, I'm kind of clawing my way back to my core interests.

00:06:53.020 Things are different, but I think my life course is still recognizable.

00:06:57.840 I don't know that I was planning at any point to be an academic scientist.

00:07:02.880 I went into neuroscience, as I've said before, mostly because I wanted to think about the mind

00:07:08.620 and write about it, and it was very much in the spirit of being a neurophilosopher.

00:07:15.200 And while I'm still doing some research in neuroscience, we have a paper now that is

00:07:19.860 struggling to be born, it is a tiny percentage of what I'm doing.

00:07:25.080 Most of what I'm doing has the character of moral philosophy and the philosophy of mind,

00:07:30.560 which was always a conscious motive of mine.

00:07:32.820 So that really isn't a derailment, but you never know.

00:07:37.020 I suddenly found myself wandering for about four years outside the guidance and at some

00:07:41.800 moments outside the patience of my PhD advisor, Mark Cohen, who knows what would have happened

00:07:48.100 if I actually stayed in the lab at that point, because he certainly had a lot to teach.

00:07:53.440 Anyway, I feel like my interests are now more or less all within reach.

00:07:57.880 But my frequent return to the topic of religion and the topic of Islam and jihadism in particular,

00:08:06.200 that is really a feature of my life that was just stamped into me on this day 15 years ago.

00:08:14.360 I think many of us share this feeling.

00:08:17.520 It's a little embarrassing to put it this way somehow, but September 11th, 2001 was the first

00:08:23.700 moment I realized viscerally, emotionally, not just intellectually, that we were living

00:08:32.380 in history, right?

00:08:36.000 I mean, history is just mayhem.

00:08:38.940 You know, read the books.

00:08:40.700 Things go wrong, really wrong for societies and whole civilizations.

00:08:47.700 Whole civilizations disappear, right?

00:08:50.920 That's history, and we're in it, and I never got that.

00:08:58.100 I never got how fragile civilization was, and the sense of that that was kindled after September

00:09:08.480 11th has remained quite vivid for me, and, you know, there are some moments that are not

00:09:14.920 business as usual, and we can really screw this up.

00:09:20.980 So that was among the many things I learned on that day, and those insights and a spirit

00:09:28.020 of urgency that I had never really had before continue to inform my work.

00:09:34.860 And now on to topics that may seem disconcerting in their irrelevance to the lessons of that day.

00:09:41.600 Okay, let's jump into the questions and see how far we get.

00:09:47.180 I got many questions about the state of my Brazilian jiu-jitsu practice.

00:09:51.200 Do I still train?

00:09:52.380 What belt do I have?

00:09:54.360 Why do I think the sport is so addictive?

00:09:57.000 Well, I do still train, but far more sporadically than I'd like.

00:10:02.000 And this is mostly due to my being unlucky and acquiring some recurring injuries that I have

00:10:06.900 to keep taking time off the mat for.

00:10:09.040 I've been training now for nearly five years, but I've had to take many long breaks, sometimes

00:10:15.640 for months at a time.

00:10:17.240 So I don't actually know how much training I've actually done in that time.

00:10:20.920 In the first six months, I really went crazy and trained hard three or four days a week.

00:10:26.800 And I got my blue belt after about six or eight months, and that was really a great period of

00:10:33.540 training.

00:10:33.940 And then I started to get injured in ways that worried me, and in particular, my hip and

00:10:39.080 my neck.

00:10:39.700 So I backed off for long stretches.

00:10:43.060 And then when I was feeling better, I'd go back on the mat and re-injure myself.

00:10:48.020 So I am still a lowly blue belt.

00:10:50.720 And if I can't shake these injuries, I might always be a blue belt.

00:10:54.100 And I would absolutely love to train more and learn more of the art, but it won't really

00:10:58.780 be worth it if I'm hobbling around with a cane or can't turn my head.

00:11:02.900 So I am pushing forward, but at an old man's pace.

00:11:06.980 But I did train today, and that was great.

00:11:09.240 To someone who hasn't trained, it surely sounds crazy that someone like me, or really anyone,

00:11:16.660 would be willing to court injury like this for a sport that just looks like two people

00:11:22.300 wrestling in pajamas.

00:11:24.380 Jiu-jitsu really is one of those things that you can't appreciate what's going on until

00:11:28.080 you do it.

00:11:29.280 And most other sports aren't like that.

00:11:30.820 I mean, if you see a great skier or a gymnast or a diver, it's pretty easy to see what the

00:11:37.540 thrill is or what it would be if you could do those things well.

00:11:41.900 But what could be the satisfaction of being able to hold someone down on the ground and

00:11:45.960 not let him up?

00:11:46.680 It's a bit inscrutable if you're just looking from the outside.

00:11:51.480 I wrote a blog post when I started BJJ entitled, The Pleasures of Drowning.

00:11:58.280 I guess I'll read you a few passages of that.

00:12:01.220 At the beginning, I wrote,

00:12:02.760 Training in BJJ offers a powerful lens through which to examine some primary human concerns,

00:12:08.580 truth versus delusion, self-knowledge, ethics, and overcoming fear.

00:12:13.380 And then I go on to say,

00:12:15.700 Martial artists are often slow to appreciate how their beliefs about human violence can

00:12:19.760 be distorted by their adherence to tradition, as well as by a natural desire to avoid injury

00:12:24.840 during the course of training.

00:12:26.560 It is in fact possible to master an ancient fighting system and to attract students who

00:12:31.600 will spend years trying to emulate your skills without ever discovering that you have no ability

00:12:36.540 to defend yourself in the real world.

00:12:39.020 Delusions of martial prowess have much in common with religious faith.

00:12:42.420 A crucial difference, however, is that while people of faith can always rationalize apparent

00:12:47.300 contradictions between their beliefs and the data of their senses, an inability to fight

00:12:51.800 is very easy to detect and, once revealed, very difficult to explain away.

00:12:57.640 End quote.

00:12:58.520 And then I link in that blog post to some amazing videos, which you really have to see to believe.

00:13:04.160 This fake martial artist who has clearly been faking his art so long that he came to believe

00:13:12.080 that he had magic powers.

00:13:14.040 You see him knocking his students down without touching them, right, at distances of 20 feet.

00:13:19.860 And who knows how they came to collaborate in this collective delusion.

00:13:23.540 These fake martial arts are really one of the strangest phenomena on earth.

00:13:27.000 But it's pretty clear that the master of this art, who you see in the video, came to believe

00:13:33.080 that he actually had these magic powers.

00:13:35.700 Because he then issued a challenge to the martial arts community that he would fight any

00:13:40.120 man intrepid enough to step into the ring with him.

00:13:42.940 And he got fairly lucky, all things considered, because the first guy who showed up was a totally

00:13:46.780 ordinary martial artist, not some killer from the UFC.

00:13:50.040 I mean, he could have gotten boss rootin' in his prime, but he got just some guy, right?

00:13:55.240 But still, you can see the result.

00:13:57.400 It's about as clear a disconfirmation of a person's delusion as you will ever witness

00:14:02.040 in your life.

00:14:03.280 Now, the amazing thing about any grappling art is that you can train it at something close

00:14:09.740 to full force without risking too much injury.

00:14:14.100 Of course, people do get injured, as I just described.

00:14:16.360 But it's not like training a striking art, like boxing or kickboxing, 100%.

00:14:21.240 To get hit in the head again and again is to get brain damage.

00:14:25.640 And I did some of that as a teenager, and I now regret it.

00:14:30.100 So, with jiu-jitsu, you can really test to see whether something works.

00:14:35.240 And there's really no luck involved.

00:14:37.800 If you get on the mat with someone who's much better than you at jiu-jitsu, it's like playing

00:14:41.980 someone who's much better at chess, right?

00:14:44.180 You will lose.

00:14:44.860 You will lose 100% of the time, and in ways that you will find astonishing.

00:14:51.080 It really is like chess if each of the pieces could be moved 20 different ways.

00:14:54.960 There are over a thousand techniques at this point.

00:14:58.100 It's just an amazingly deep game.

00:15:01.100 Here's a little more of what I wrote in The Pleasures of Drowning.

00:15:03.620 I can now attest that the experience of grappling with an expert is akin to falling into deep

00:15:08.880 water without knowing how to swim.

00:15:10.800 You will make a furious effort to stay afloat, and you will fail.

00:15:14.880 Once you learn how to swim, however, it becomes difficult to see what the problem is.

00:15:18.900 Why can't a drowning man just relax and tread water?

00:15:21.660 The same inscrutable difference between lethal ignorance and life-saving knowledge can be found

00:15:26.820 on the mat.

00:15:27.380 To train in BJJ is to continually drown, or rather to be drowned, in sudden and ingenious

00:15:34.460 ways, and to be taught, again and again, how to swim.

00:15:38.160 Whether you're an expert in a striking-based art, boxing, karate, taekwondo, or just naturally

00:15:44.240 tough, a return to childlike humility awaits you.

00:15:48.180 Simply step onto the mat with a BJJ black belt.

00:15:51.320 There are few experiences as startling as being effortlessly controlled by someone your size

00:15:55.880 or smaller, and despite your full resistance, placed in a chokehold, or an arm lock, or some

00:16:01.220 other submission.

00:16:02.460 A few minutes of this, and whatever your previous training, your incompetence will become so glaring

00:16:07.320 and intolerable, that you will want to learn whatever this person has to teach.

00:16:11.760 Empowerment begins only moments later when you are shown how to escape the various traps

00:16:16.340 that were set for you, and to set them yourself.

00:16:19.680 Each increment of knowledge imparted in this way is so satisfying, and one's ignorance at

00:16:24.920 every stage so consequential, that the process of learning BJJ can become remarkably addictive.

00:16:31.100 I've never experienced anything quite like it.

00:16:34.080 End quote.

00:16:34.500 And it's really true.

00:16:37.580 The reinforcement seems to be on the most addictive Pavlovian scale.

00:16:44.260 You find yourself being killed, which is to say put in a position where the other person

00:16:49.020 could choke you to death if he wanted to, or break your limbs and then choke you to death.

00:16:54.160 But he doesn't, obviously.

00:16:56.340 And then you're shown what happened.

00:16:57.960 And you're shown how to do it yourself, and how to keep it from being done to you.

00:17:02.860 And this whole cycle takes like 20 minutes.

00:17:05.920 So every time you train, you experience this amazing encounter with your own ignorance.

00:17:11.860 Ignorance that would, in fact, have killed you had that been a real fight.

00:17:16.480 And then it gets remedied with knowledge.

00:17:20.400 And the knowledge comes in the form of moves that you can actually do, right?

00:17:24.240 You're not being shown how to do a backflip on a balance beam that will take you years

00:17:28.620 to perfect.

00:17:29.620 We're talking about gross motor moves that you can actually do correctly after very little

00:17:33.680 practice.

00:17:34.900 And again, until you've experienced this, you really can't believe the difference

00:17:40.320 between knowledge and ignorance in this domain.

00:17:43.360 It is every bit as decisive as the difference between not knowing how to swim and being totally

00:17:50.020 safe in the water.

00:17:51.200 If someone doesn't know how to swim and falls in the deep end of the pool, he's going to

00:17:55.960 die quickly.

00:17:57.140 And it makes no sense, right?

00:17:58.860 I mean, if you know how to swim, you look at this and think, he's moving his arms and

00:18:04.060 legs furiously, right?

00:18:05.860 In fact, he's probably expending as much energy as Michael Phelps in the pool.

00:18:09.160 And yet it makes no difference.

00:18:10.300 When you train in jiu-jitsu, you get to be that drowning man, and then you get to stop

00:18:15.720 being him again and again and again.

00:18:19.380 So it's like chess where you die and get resurrected.

00:18:24.480 And it's much more complicated than chess because there are literally at this point over a thousand

00:18:28.900 different moves.

00:18:30.440 And some of these moves are so brilliant that they effectively cancel the differences between

00:18:36.080 people that would ordinarily be decisive in a fight, like size and strength and speed.

00:18:41.520 That's not to say these physical attributes don't matter at all.

00:18:44.160 They do.

00:18:45.440 If you're big and strong and fast, you always have an advantage in a fight.

00:18:49.640 But jiu-jitsu makes such brilliant use of physics, the principles of leverage and position,

00:18:53.800 that it really is not an exaggeration to say that a smaller, weaker person can totally dominate

00:19:01.000 a larger one who has less training.

00:19:03.600 And it's astonishing to be on the receiving end of that.

00:19:07.360 And it's also amazing to be able to do it to others once you have been trained.

00:19:11.240 And again, the training is such that you can do it in a way that you know you're not just

00:19:16.020 fooling yourself, right?

00:19:17.400 You're not pretending to do moves and having your training partner pretend to be affected

00:19:22.260 by them, which happens in so many traditional martial arts.

00:19:25.740 You know, I pretend to poke you in the eye or hit you in the throat and you pretend to

00:19:29.940 be affected by it.

00:19:31.640 And then I pretend to do the next move.

00:19:33.620 And then we train this sequence where each of us is compliant with the other to one or

00:19:38.560 another degree.

00:19:39.180 And it becomes a kind of pantomime of violence.

00:19:41.860 That's not what happens in a real grappling art.

00:19:45.980 And it's not what happens in a real striking art.

00:19:48.560 But in a real striking art, when you're training full force, you're getting hit in the head

00:19:52.160 hard over and over again and kicked in the stomach.

00:19:55.700 And it's, you know, it's not good for you.

00:19:57.800 But you can get injured in BJJ.

00:20:00.540 So all I can say is if you do get into it, do it wisely.

00:20:05.420 So anyway, that's the state of my training and the state of my enthusiasm.

00:20:10.320 I am an addict and I'm trying to maintain my addiction at a level that is compatible with,

00:20:19.240 if not full health and ambulatory lifestyle.

00:20:23.820 There were many questions on free will.

00:20:26.740 People are still fascinated and confused about it.

00:20:29.780 And the podcast I did with Dan Dennett in a bar failed to change that.

00:20:34.680 So people want more on that topic in a variety of ways.

00:20:39.580 Let's see here.

00:20:41.560 Well, I've argued that there's no such thing as free will.

00:20:45.040 So what is there?

00:20:46.820 Well, there's luck, both good and bad, as well as what we make of it.

00:20:52.060 Actually, that's not quite true.

00:20:53.480 What you make of your luck is also just more luck.

00:20:57.420 Once again, you didn't pick your parents.

00:20:59.540 You didn't pick the society into which you were born.

00:21:01.700 There's not a cell in your body or brain that you created.

00:21:06.360 Nor is there a single influence coming from the outside world that you brought into being.

00:21:11.800 And yet, everything you think and do arises from this ocean of prior causes.

00:21:18.620 So what you do with your luck and the tools with which you do it,

00:21:24.120 even down to the level of the effort and discipline you manage to summon in each moment,

00:21:29.020 is more in the way of luck.

00:21:30.600 Now, most people resist this idea, seemingly at any intellectual cost,

00:21:35.700 for reasons that I can't understand.

00:21:37.900 Because this single insight is the antidote to arrogance and hatred,

00:21:43.220 and a profound basis for compassion for others who are less lucky than you are.

00:21:48.160 But before we get into the ethics, we need to clear away some more confusion.

00:21:53.080 I once met a rabbi who seemed to understand my views about free will,

00:21:58.180 the moment I expressed them.

00:22:00.040 And he conceded that the notion of free will made no sense in a naturalistic world,

00:22:06.140 only to then claim that we were therefore lucky to live in a world fashioned by a just and loving God,

00:22:11.840 who has given each of us a soul endowed with free will.

00:22:16.660 Hence, the possibility of sin and our victory at overcoming it.

00:22:20.660 And hence, the reality of God's justice if we fail.

00:22:24.220 Of course, this equation wouldn't apply to children born with congenital diseases,

00:22:28.700 who, in most cases, didn't even have brains with which to sin

00:22:32.660 before they reaped more than their fair share of justice.

00:22:35.480 But nor does it apply to anyone else, when you really think about it.

00:22:39.860 But I knew not to take this line with the rabbi,

00:22:42.940 because he was just the sort of man who would say that God's will is a mystery,

00:22:46.900 as though merely reiterating this platitude could render an all-knowing and all-powerful God also good,

00:22:53.760 in the face of all the needless misery and death we see all around us.

00:22:58.100 The topic of our conversation was free will,

00:23:00.620 and whether or not a soul could confer it.

00:23:03.060 So I did my best to stay on point,

00:23:05.480 I asked the rabbi how much credit he wanted to take for the fact

00:23:08.120 that he hadn't been given the soul of a psychopath.

00:23:11.360 He was aware, of course, that some people have such souls.

00:23:15.160 I suggested that he and I were both very lucky not to have been so endowed.

00:23:19.640 But the rabbi just waved this question away,

00:23:22.300 and declared that there was nothing I could say on the topic that could change his mind.

00:23:26.340 Because, you see, the workings of the human soul are,

00:23:29.880 wait for it,

00:23:31.680 a mystery.

00:23:33.340 I suppose I should have seen that coming.

00:23:35.480 Now, this is where a wiser man than I would see life as a comedy and enjoy a good laugh.

00:23:41.640 I'll admit that these encounters sometimes bring out the nihilist in me.

00:23:47.940 A claim this empty,

00:23:50.520 expressed with such evident self-satisfaction,

00:23:54.940 causes some part of me,

00:23:57.280 some small part that other parts are struggling even now to expunge,

00:24:01.460 to hope that a distant asteroid will just be nudged out of its orbit

00:24:05.740 and set on a collision course with Earth.

00:24:07.680 The fact that this educated man with a large congregation who was in a position to lead others

00:24:16.480 intellectually and ethically

00:24:18.980 could present such an ugly tangle of ignorance and superstition to the world

00:24:23.660 as though it were some marvelous puzzle of his own invention that no mortal could solve,

00:24:28.980 actually made me furious.

00:24:32.640 Now, he must have mistaken the look on my face for a blow landed in debate

00:24:36.660 because his eyes now acquired a triumphant gleam.

00:24:42.120 And he then claimed that without free will,

00:24:45.580 there could be no such thing as reason

00:24:47.580 because people would be doomed to think whatever they would based on the laws of physics.

00:24:52.000 Indeed, the very effort I was making to reason with him now

00:24:56.620 proved that I, too, believe in free will.

00:25:01.100 In fact, if you search YouTube,

00:25:03.060 you can find Noam Chomsky saying the same thing

00:25:05.340 in response to a question after one of his lectures.

00:25:08.200 This is a very common claim.

00:25:10.680 It is also ridiculous.

00:25:11.720 But the rabbi paused dramatically at this point

00:25:15.960 to let the meaning of his words sink in.

00:25:19.060 And here you should picture a peacock,

00:25:21.420 plumage spread in full,

00:25:23.860 wearing a yarmulke.

00:25:25.360 So now, please consider what this rabbi wouldn't.

00:25:28.520 Your thoughts and choices arise out of each

00:25:30.560 present state of the universe,

00:25:33.360 which includes your brain

00:25:34.560 and your soul,

00:25:36.840 if such a thing exists,

00:25:38.720 along with all of its influences,

00:25:40.340 whether random or not.

00:25:43.520 Your thoughts, intentions, and choices

00:25:45.320 are part of this causal framework.

00:25:48.660 So your thoughts, intentions, and choices matter

00:25:51.040 because whether they are the product

00:25:53.740 of a brain or a soul,

00:25:56.480 they are often the proximate cause of your actions.

00:25:59.820 And yet they are caused in turn

00:26:01.780 by events that you did not bring into being.

00:26:06.340 Reasoning is possible

00:26:07.640 not because you're free to think

00:26:09.700 however you want,

00:26:10.960 but because you are not free.

00:26:13.940 Reason makes slaves of us all.

00:26:17.540 This is why the rabbi's point

00:26:18.880 and Chomsky's point

00:26:20.380 make no sense.

00:26:22.580 It matters that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

00:26:25.880 And it matters

00:26:26.980 that you understand this.

00:26:29.560 Are you free

00:26:30.600 not to understand it?

00:26:32.660 No.

00:26:34.020 Not if you do, in fact,

00:26:35.780 understand it.

00:26:36.500 Are you free to understand it

00:26:38.620 if you don't understand it?

00:26:40.740 Again, no.

00:26:42.380 Whether you understand or not

00:26:44.300 isn't under your control.

00:26:46.600 But the difference matters,

00:26:48.080 absolutely.

00:26:49.360 Anyone who believes that 2 plus 2 equals 5

00:26:51.480 will find no end to his troubles

00:26:53.960 because the world will oppose him

00:26:56.160 at every point,

00:26:58.160 beginning with his own fingers.

00:26:59.520 You are part of reality,

00:27:03.140 whatever it is altogether.

00:27:05.420 Where is the freedom in this?

00:27:08.420 Your beliefs about the world

00:27:09.940 are formed

00:27:10.660 in a perfect crucible

00:27:12.240 of prior causes.

00:27:14.080 If I say something now

00:27:15.400 that changes your mind,

00:27:17.220 it will be through

00:27:17.900 no free will of your own.

00:27:19.900 And if you're left feeling

00:27:21.140 merely doubt or confusion,

00:27:23.420 or you come away convinced

00:27:24.940 that I'm a lunatic,

00:27:25.860 you won't have chosen

00:27:27.740 those responses either.

00:27:29.960 So freedom never enters into it.

00:27:32.720 The universe is pulling your strings.

00:27:35.840 But our beliefs about the world matter

00:27:37.760 because there's an enormous difference

00:27:39.220 between knowledge and delusion.

00:27:42.340 The physicist David Deutsch,

00:27:43.760 who I had on my podcast,

00:27:45.720 has argued that knowledge

00:27:46.800 can produce any change

00:27:48.300 in the universe

00:27:48.820 compatible with its laws.

00:27:50.980 Because if a change

00:27:52.120 can't be accomplished

00:27:53.280 with sufficient knowledge,

00:27:54.620 this could only mean

00:27:56.300 that some law of nature

00:27:57.600 prevents it.

00:27:59.500 Now, you can be forgiven

00:28:00.440 for thinking that this

00:28:01.580 reasoning sounds circular,

00:28:03.900 but I'm convinced it isn't.

00:28:06.460 You should listen to that podcast

00:28:07.840 with David

00:28:08.340 if you want to explore

00:28:09.120 this point further

00:28:10.040 because I thought

00:28:10.540 it was a great conversation.

00:28:12.500 It was podcast 22

00:28:14.420 entitled

00:28:15.480 Surviving the Cosmos.

00:28:18.360 Now, according to Deutsch,

00:28:20.400 given the right knowledge,

00:28:22.400 you could take

00:28:22.940 any arbitrary region of space,

00:28:25.760 sweep together

00:28:26.380 its stray hydrogen atoms,

00:28:28.480 transmute them

00:28:29.220 into heavier elements

00:28:30.140 through the process

00:28:30.840 of nuclear fusion,

00:28:33.100 use these elements

00:28:34.240 to assemble

00:28:34.880 the smallest possible machine

00:28:36.680 capable of building

00:28:38.080 all other machines,

00:28:39.540 and then produce

00:28:40.840 intelligent creatures

00:28:41.760 vastly more capable

00:28:43.040 and sensitive than ourselves,

00:28:45.320 atom by atom.

00:28:46.220 All that is lacking

00:28:48.420 is an understanding

00:28:50.260 of how to do these things

00:28:51.560 at every stage

00:28:52.320 along the way,

00:28:53.540 which is to say

00:28:54.700 all that is lacking

00:28:55.720 is knowledge.

00:28:57.580 So knowledge

00:28:58.580 literally is power,

00:29:00.280 and what we do

00:29:01.340 as a species

00:29:01.940 on the basis

00:29:02.500 of our ignorance

00:29:03.200 might very well

00:29:04.280 destroy us,

00:29:05.100 so the stakes

00:29:06.340 couldn't be higher.

00:29:08.100 A friend of mine

00:29:08.880 once met a group

00:29:09.560 of villagers

00:29:10.120 in India

00:29:10.840 who had made

00:29:12.120 a daily habit

00:29:13.160 of drinking

00:29:14.380 small quantities

00:29:15.460 of a toxic fluid

00:29:16.700 that they discovered

00:29:17.740 in an abandoned generator.

00:29:20.000 It was, after all,

00:29:20.840 Beigley juice,

00:29:22.100 electric juice.

00:29:23.760 They thought,

00:29:24.160 how could a substance

00:29:24.960 so integral

00:29:25.840 to the workings

00:29:26.620 of a dynamo

00:29:27.500 do anything

00:29:28.460 but increase

00:29:29.020 a person's potency?

00:29:31.020 Of course,

00:29:31.280 my friend tried

00:29:31.860 to reason

00:29:32.360 with these people,

00:29:33.400 but he was rebuffed

00:29:34.500 as an ignoramus

00:29:35.520 and a tender-footed

00:29:37.040 colonialist.

00:29:38.440 Now, he didn't stay

00:29:39.380 long enough

00:29:39.860 to witness

00:29:40.400 the aftermath,

00:29:41.880 and of course

00:29:42.560 there's no shortage

00:29:43.380 of such examples.

00:29:44.500 The Chinese still imagine

00:29:45.800 that rhino horn

00:29:46.740 confers similar advantages.

00:29:48.800 Presumably,

00:29:49.440 this belief

00:29:49.800 has less dire consequences

00:29:51.140 for their own health,

00:29:52.240 but it remains

00:29:53.260 quite fatal

00:29:53.880 to the rhinos.

00:29:56.020 With or without

00:29:56.880 free will,

00:29:58.160 beliefs have consequences.

00:30:00.480 And part of living

00:30:01.240 an examined life

00:30:02.300 is putting

00:30:02.900 one's beliefs

00:30:03.720 in order.

00:30:04.800 And one's beliefs

00:30:05.420 about free will

00:30:06.340 are no exception.

00:30:09.240 What is the difference

00:30:10.460 between Eckhart Tolle

00:30:11.600 and Osho?

00:30:13.140 According to

00:30:13.700 Dan Harris's book,

00:30:14.780 you seem to give

00:30:15.360 credence to the idea

00:30:16.320 that Tolle might

00:30:17.060 actually have had

00:30:17.820 a true spiritual experience,

00:30:19.580 while Osho

00:30:20.120 is your go-to example

00:30:21.200 for a fake guru.

00:30:22.820 And yet their books

00:30:23.540 and ideas

00:30:24.060 seem almost identical.

00:30:26.300 Well,

00:30:26.820 they're identical

00:30:27.380 apart from

00:30:28.460 the nitrous oxide

00:30:29.720 and the blowjobs

00:30:31.260 every 45 minutes

00:30:32.160 and the guns.

00:30:33.560 I would say

00:30:34.600 that Osho

00:30:35.140 and Eckhart Tolle

00:30:36.420 are pretty similar.

00:30:37.920 I've gotten

00:30:38.480 a fair amount

00:30:38.900 of grief

00:30:39.260 for a few

00:30:40.020 critical things

00:30:40.620 I've said

00:30:40.880 about Osho.

00:30:42.020 Osho,

00:30:42.580 for those of you

00:30:43.060 who don't recall,

00:30:44.540 was also

00:30:45.260 known as

00:30:46.360 Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh,

00:30:48.960 the man

00:30:49.520 who had

00:30:50.240 the 94

00:30:51.900 Rolls Royces,

00:30:53.260 I think,

00:30:54.360 had a compound

00:30:54.960 up in Oregon.

00:30:56.560 Well,

00:30:56.840 on Osho,

00:30:57.480 no matter how much

00:30:58.880 benefit

00:30:59.600 you've derived

00:31:01.220 from Osho's teachings,

00:31:03.200 I hear from

00:31:04.100 many people

00:31:05.060 who have,

00:31:06.100 it seems to me

00:31:06.660 that there's

00:31:07.000 no honest

00:31:07.920 account

00:31:08.320 of his career

00:31:09.700 that doesn't

00:31:11.640 show him

00:31:12.920 to be

00:31:13.280 a cautionary tale.

00:31:15.560 I mean,

00:31:16.340 many gurus

00:31:17.500 have clearly

00:31:18.640 gotten drunk

00:31:19.480 on the power

00:31:20.560 of being perceived

00:31:21.800 as an infallible

00:31:23.020 teacher

00:31:23.840 surrounded by

00:31:25.340 devotees.

00:31:26.900 Osho is a

00:31:27.360 clear case

00:31:28.180 of someone

00:31:28.900 who did.

00:31:29.960 And there have

00:31:30.240 been many books

00:31:30.960 written about

00:31:31.440 how crazy

00:31:31.940 things got

00:31:32.760 for him

00:31:33.100 in the end.

00:31:33.820 I've read

00:31:35.180 at least

00:31:35.740 two of those.

00:31:37.400 The Rolls Royces

00:31:38.820 alone

00:31:39.300 make him

00:31:40.040 look like

00:31:40.420 a schmuck.

00:31:41.460 But,

00:31:42.580 you know,

00:31:42.880 I've always said

00:31:43.520 that I thought

00:31:44.080 Osho was very

00:31:44.860 smart

00:31:45.280 and had

00:31:46.480 many useful

00:31:47.400 and true

00:31:47.820 things to say

00:31:48.620 about the mind

00:31:49.300 and about the

00:31:49.720 practice of meditation.

00:31:51.160 And I don't

00:31:52.020 doubt that he

00:31:52.640 himself had

00:31:53.500 very interesting

00:31:54.300 experiences

00:31:54.880 in meditation.

00:31:55.800 But he was

00:31:56.780 clearly flawed.

00:31:58.440 Now,

00:31:58.640 I know much

00:31:59.140 less about

00:31:59.860 Tole.

00:32:00.420 I've never

00:32:00.860 met him.

00:32:01.900 I never met

00:32:02.300 Osho either,

00:32:03.040 but

00:32:03.180 I know

00:32:04.120 much less

00:32:04.540 about

00:32:04.800 Tole's

00:32:05.360 scene.

00:32:06.540 I don't

00:32:07.080 know of

00:32:07.280 any

00:32:07.460 scandals

00:32:08.200 associated

00:32:08.780 with his

00:32:09.140 work.

00:32:10.020 For those

00:32:10.360 of you

00:32:10.500 who don't

00:32:10.740 know

00:32:11.040 Tole,

00:32:11.820 he's a

00:32:12.820 Westerner

00:32:14.400 who claims

00:32:15.100 to have

00:32:15.380 had a

00:32:15.620 kind of

00:32:15.860 spontaneous

00:32:16.460 enlightenment

00:32:17.140 experience,

00:32:18.160 which he

00:32:18.960 describes in

00:32:19.740 a book

00:32:20.200 that became

00:32:21.000 a huge

00:32:21.520 bestseller

00:32:22.100 entitled

00:32:23.040 The Power

00:32:23.540 of Now.

00:32:24.820 And he

00:32:25.240 was on

00:32:25.640 Oprah,

00:32:26.300 and he

00:32:26.600 wrote a

00:32:27.680 New Age

00:32:28.020 book that

00:32:28.440 became very

00:32:29.080 visible and

00:32:30.080 from which

00:32:30.760 many people

00:32:31.960 have derived

00:32:32.640 or claim

00:32:34.020 to have

00:32:34.240 derived a lot

00:32:34.840 of benefit.

00:32:36.120 So I don't

00:32:37.100 know any

00:32:38.080 scandals associated

00:32:39.360 with him.

00:32:40.380 The worst I could

00:32:41.380 say about him

00:32:42.100 is that he

00:32:42.560 occasionally says

00:32:43.340 things that are

00:32:44.140 scientifically

00:32:44.700 confused,

00:32:45.900 but the

00:32:46.680 experiential claims

00:32:47.900 I've heard him

00:32:48.640 make seem

00:32:49.680 fine to me.

00:32:51.180 I haven't read

00:32:52.100 all of his books

00:32:53.040 or really any

00:32:54.660 one of his books

00:32:55.440 in its entirety,

00:32:56.380 but I've read

00:32:56.880 enough.

00:32:57.760 But this is

00:32:58.900 true of many

00:32:59.380 of Osho's

00:33:00.000 experiential

00:33:00.860 claims.

00:33:01.780 There's the

00:33:02.360 experience,

00:33:03.600 and then there's

00:33:04.360 what you take

00:33:05.120 the experience

00:33:05.760 to mean.

00:33:06.860 You can have

00:33:07.360 an experience

00:33:07.960 of self-transcendence,

00:33:09.600 of losing

00:33:10.260 your sense

00:33:10.800 of self,

00:33:12.000 so that there's

00:33:12.500 only consciousness

00:33:13.540 and its contents.

00:33:16.280 And there's

00:33:16.680 what you decide

00:33:17.580 to say or

00:33:18.540 not say

00:33:19.240 about the

00:33:20.180 universe

00:33:20.560 as a result.

00:33:22.240 Now,

00:33:22.500 I don't think

00:33:22.860 you can say

00:33:23.580 anything about

00:33:24.220 the universe

00:33:24.680 on the basis

00:33:25.560 of that experience,

00:33:26.420 but other people

00:33:27.420 like Deepak Chopra

00:33:28.700 think you can say

00:33:29.460 that consciousness

00:33:30.100 preceded the

00:33:30.980 Big Bang

00:33:31.600 and therefore

00:33:32.820 is not a

00:33:33.500 biological phenomenon.

00:33:35.280 And many gurus,

00:33:37.040 most probably,

00:33:38.380 have fallen on

00:33:39.540 the Chopra side

00:33:40.700 of that schism,

00:33:42.960 but almost none

00:33:44.300 of these people

00:33:44.880 have been scientists,

00:33:46.780 and many haven't

00:33:48.700 even been educated

00:33:49.540 by today's standards.

00:33:51.280 But that doesn't mean

00:33:51.920 they don't have

00:33:52.340 anything to teach.

00:33:53.460 And that doesn't mean

00:33:54.060 that Osho

00:33:54.560 didn't have anything

00:33:55.480 to teach.

00:33:56.420 But the problem

00:33:58.100 with Osho

00:33:58.700 is that if you

00:33:59.940 happen to have

00:34:00.740 been an attractive

00:34:01.780 woman,

00:34:03.040 and especially

00:34:03.460 one with large

00:34:04.320 breasts,

00:34:05.480 what he had to

00:34:06.240 teach,

00:34:07.020 rather often,

00:34:08.440 entailed you

00:34:09.020 taking your

00:34:09.500 clothes off.

00:34:11.060 So if you think

00:34:11.560 this makes Osho

00:34:12.520 look fully enlightened,

00:34:14.300 you may have a

00:34:15.360 deeper understanding

00:34:16.440 of these matters

00:34:17.140 than I do.

00:34:19.100 Next question.

00:34:20.940 Why podcast

00:34:21.740 rather than just

00:34:22.660 spend the time

00:34:23.280 writing?

00:34:23.660 and why ask

00:34:25.140 for listener

00:34:25.640 support rather

00:34:26.520 than read ads

00:34:27.420 like most

00:34:27.880 podcasters do?

00:34:30.180 Okay, well,

00:34:30.820 I write because

00:34:31.780 I love books,

00:34:33.140 and I think

00:34:34.120 that certain

00:34:34.600 things can only

00:34:35.520 be said well

00:34:36.360 when written.

00:34:38.720 But I'm under

00:34:39.580 no illusions

00:34:40.260 about how many

00:34:40.960 people actually

00:34:41.500 read books

00:34:42.120 at this point.

00:34:43.840 Most of the

00:34:44.560 people I meet

00:34:45.160 who say that

00:34:45.820 my work has

00:34:46.460 made a real

00:34:46.980 difference in

00:34:47.560 their lives

00:34:48.000 have never read

00:34:49.120 any of my books.

00:34:49.820 and I reach

00:34:51.400 more people

00:34:52.020 in the first

00:34:52.780 week after

00:34:53.960 I release

00:34:54.400 a podcast

00:34:55.080 than will

00:34:56.120 buy my next

00:34:56.880 book over

00:34:57.360 the course

00:34:57.840 of several

00:34:58.840 years.

00:35:00.000 And we're not

00:35:00.340 talking about

00:35:00.740 a six-minute

00:35:01.340 interview on

00:35:01.880 television.

00:35:02.400 We're talking

00:35:02.720 about you

00:35:03.260 guys listening

00:35:03.940 for one

00:35:04.640 or two

00:35:05.080 or three

00:35:05.620 hours.

00:35:07.220 So the

00:35:07.800 podcast gives

00:35:08.560 me all the

00:35:09.040 time I need

00:35:09.600 to say

00:35:09.940 something,

00:35:10.720 and it also

00:35:11.680 allows me to

00:35:12.220 be in dialogue

00:35:12.860 with other

00:35:13.360 people who

00:35:13.800 are much

00:35:14.180 more knowledgeable

00:35:14.860 than I am

00:35:15.720 on any

00:35:16.020 given topic,

00:35:16.880 like David

00:35:17.380 Deutsch,

00:35:17.840 who I just

00:35:18.240 mentioned.

00:35:18.580 So since

00:35:20.980 communication

00:35:21.500 is my

00:35:22.600 goal,

00:35:23.620 it's very

00:35:24.740 tempting to

00:35:25.300 keep putting

00:35:25.660 my time

00:35:26.240 into this

00:35:26.840 medium.

00:35:28.060 Now, the

00:35:28.780 problem, of

00:35:29.680 course, is

00:35:30.220 that this

00:35:31.040 is a free

00:35:31.620 medium, which

00:35:32.440 people expect

00:35:33.140 to remain

00:35:33.840 free.

00:35:35.140 And like

00:35:35.780 everything else

00:35:36.380 that's free

00:35:36.800 online, most

00:35:37.520 podcasts are

00:35:38.240 paid for by

00:35:38.840 ads.

00:35:39.660 But I've

00:35:40.260 decided that I

00:35:40.820 don't want to

00:35:41.220 put ads on

00:35:41.940 my podcast

00:35:42.420 for a variety

00:35:43.180 of reasons.

00:35:44.340 The main

00:35:44.720 one is that

00:35:45.140 all I have

00:35:45.740 is my

00:35:46.020 credibility,

00:35:47.040 and there

00:35:47.300 are very few

00:35:47.800 things that

00:35:48.260 I could

00:35:48.680 advertise on

00:35:49.940 this podcast

00:35:50.500 that I

00:35:51.440 can honestly

00:35:52.140 say that I

00:35:53.100 use and

00:35:53.820 love and

00:35:54.360 that you

00:35:54.680 should buy.

00:35:55.920 Also, I

00:35:56.280 see what

00:35:56.500 advertising has

00:35:57.260 done to

00:35:57.660 digital media

00:35:58.380 in general.

00:35:59.860 The desperation

00:36:00.540 for clicks,

00:36:01.900 that is the

00:36:02.340 lifeblood of

00:36:03.180 ad revenue,

00:36:04.280 has not been

00:36:04.960 good for us

00:36:05.600 or for the

00:36:06.100 work that

00:36:06.480 people are

00:36:06.820 producing.

00:36:08.060 So this

00:36:08.680 podcast is an

00:36:09.460 experiment, and

00:36:10.660 I don't know

00:36:11.000 what will

00:36:11.300 ultimately come

00:36:11.920 of it.

00:36:12.840 I really want

00:36:13.720 this to work,

00:36:14.520 and it seems

00:36:15.040 like it should

00:36:15.640 work.

00:36:16.000 The podcast

00:36:17.500 is invariably

00:36:18.540 what people

00:36:19.100 request I

00:36:20.060 do more

00:36:20.540 of, and

00:36:21.440 there's a

00:36:21.700 lot of

00:36:21.980 engagement

00:36:22.440 here.

00:36:23.420 Many of

00:36:23.780 you have

00:36:23.960 been writing

00:36:24.360 to suggest

00:36:24.940 new topics

00:36:25.680 and interviews

00:36:26.440 you think I

00:36:26.880 should do.

00:36:27.640 I even run

00:36:28.180 into people

00:36:28.600 in public

00:36:29.100 who are

00:36:29.440 listening to

00:36:30.020 the podcast

00:36:30.680 the moment

00:36:31.120 they run

00:36:31.520 into me,

00:36:32.100 and they

00:36:32.660 just flash

00:36:33.240 me their

00:36:33.580 phones.

00:36:34.340 So it

00:36:34.880 feels like a

00:36:35.480 very good

00:36:35.860 thing to be

00:36:36.300 doing.

00:36:37.420 But there

00:36:38.660 is this

00:36:39.080 impressive

00:36:39.580 gulf between

00:36:40.600 what we say

00:36:41.640 we value

00:36:42.240 and what

00:36:43.080 we're

00:36:43.240 willing to

00:36:43.640 support.

00:36:44.960 Only about

00:36:45.620 1% of

00:36:46.320 listeners

00:36:46.700 actually fund

00:36:47.760 the podcast.

00:36:49.200 So there

00:36:49.780 is this

00:36:50.100 free rider

00:36:50.680 situation

00:36:51.240 with about

00:36:51.620 99%

00:36:52.380 of the

00:36:52.660 audience.

00:36:53.660 Now again,

00:36:54.080 this is

00:36:54.380 totally

00:36:54.760 understandable

00:36:55.340 because

00:36:55.980 everyone

00:36:56.600 expects

00:36:57.060 podcasts

00:36:57.640 to be

00:36:57.940 free.

00:36:58.580 We've

00:36:58.980 trained

00:36:59.300 ourselves

00:36:59.780 to expect

00:37:00.380 this.

00:37:01.280 And it

00:37:01.580 is free.

00:37:02.360 And it's

00:37:02.660 good that

00:37:02.980 it's free

00:37:03.300 because people

00:37:03.760 can discover

00:37:04.360 whether or

00:37:04.740 not they

00:37:04.940 like what

00:37:05.240 I'm doing

00:37:05.560 here without

00:37:05.940 any investment.

00:37:06.980 So it

00:37:07.240 is free,

00:37:08.160 but you

00:37:08.540 can support

00:37:09.020 it if

00:37:09.300 you want

00:37:09.580 to.

00:37:10.720 Now

00:37:10.920 obviously the

00:37:11.480 difference

00:37:11.920 between

00:37:12.380 1%

00:37:13.080 support

00:37:13.620 and

00:37:14.240 10%

00:37:14.900 support

00:37:15.360 is

00:37:16.100 enormous.

00:37:16.920 It's

00:37:17.160 tenfold.

00:37:18.500 The truth

00:37:19.260 is I'd

00:37:19.580 love to

00:37:19.960 get more

00:37:20.360 ambitious

00:37:20.740 and creative

00:37:21.640 in this

00:37:22.340 medium.

00:37:23.080 I could

00:37:23.360 travel to

00:37:24.040 do important

00:37:24.600 interviews

00:37:25.000 face-to-face,

00:37:26.280 interviews that

00:37:26.720 will only

00:37:27.080 happen if I

00:37:27.680 show up

00:37:27.980 in person.

00:37:28.900 I don't

00:37:29.520 know where

00:37:29.780 this could

00:37:30.100 go.

00:37:30.900 And it

00:37:31.180 actually

00:37:31.460 wouldn't

00:37:31.940 take that

00:37:32.540 much to

00:37:33.080 bring things

00:37:33.700 to the

00:37:33.980 next level.

00:37:34.660 If only

00:37:35.360 10% of

00:37:36.200 listeners

00:37:36.620 gave $2

00:37:37.880 a podcast,

00:37:39.200 that would

00:37:39.760 be a total

00:37:40.440 game-changer.

00:37:41.820 Suddenly

00:37:42.260 that would

00:37:42.700 be a

00:37:43.080 media

00:37:43.400 company.

00:37:45.140 So if you

00:37:45.440 do want

00:37:45.700 to help

00:37:45.920 fund the

00:37:46.220 podcast,

00:37:47.180 you can

00:37:47.460 do it

00:37:47.660 through my

00:37:47.920 website.

00:37:48.740 That's

00:37:49.040 samharris.org

00:37:50.140 forward slash

00:37:51.160 support.

00:37:52.200 And those

00:37:52.820 of you who

00:37:53.120 are part of

00:37:53.500 the 1%

00:37:54.120 who are

00:37:54.700 already

00:37:55.020 supporting it,

00:37:56.120 you people

00:37:56.540 are awesome.

00:37:57.860 You have

00:37:58.240 been making

00:37:58.540 this happen.

00:38:00.400 Next

00:38:00.700 question.

00:38:02.000 What's your

00:38:02.260 opinion of

00:38:02.760 Milo,

00:38:03.380 Yiannopoulos,

00:38:04.340 and the

00:38:04.800 alt-right?

00:38:05.420 All right,

00:38:07.420 well, I

00:38:07.680 can't say

00:38:08.260 that I

00:38:08.480 followed what

00:38:09.320 Milo has

00:38:09.920 said and

00:38:10.400 written very

00:38:11.240 closely.

00:38:12.440 I've watched

00:38:13.120 a few

00:38:13.420 interviews with

00:38:14.140 him, and

00:38:14.660 I know

00:38:15.760 about his

00:38:16.180 lifetime ban

00:38:17.020 from Twitter.

00:38:18.200 Obviously, I

00:38:18.820 agree with him

00:38:19.400 about a few

00:38:19.840 things, and I

00:38:20.840 disagree with

00:38:21.380 him about

00:38:22.000 others.

00:38:23.080 The points

00:38:23.900 of disagreement

00:38:24.680 are probably

00:38:26.020 unsurprising.

00:38:27.160 He's a

00:38:27.840 huge Trump

00:38:28.820 supporter.

00:38:30.060 He's

00:38:30.620 religious, and

00:38:32.620 given to

00:38:33.540 defending a

00:38:34.380 belief in

00:38:34.780 God in

00:38:35.260 terms that

00:38:35.840 are no

00:38:36.380 more impressive

00:38:36.960 than ones

00:38:37.420 you've heard

00:38:37.720 a thousand

00:38:38.100 times before.

00:38:39.460 And I

00:38:39.900 find in

00:38:40.300 someone who

00:38:40.800 is obviously

00:38:41.480 smart and

00:38:42.360 very articulate,

00:38:43.720 these arguments

00:38:44.380 are even more

00:38:45.420 annoying.

00:38:46.340 So our

00:38:46.680 minds don't

00:38:47.120 quite meet

00:38:47.700 there.

00:38:49.260 My basic

00:38:50.280 gripe with

00:38:50.920 Milo, and

00:38:52.060 again, this is

00:38:52.600 based only on a

00:38:53.360 few interviews

00:38:53.980 and a couple

00:38:55.560 of his

00:38:55.840 articles,

00:38:56.200 is that he

00:38:58.580 strikes me as

00:38:59.440 fairly insincere.

00:39:01.500 He appears to

00:39:02.420 be trolling all

00:39:03.780 of humanity

00:39:04.400 at this point,

00:39:06.120 and having a

00:39:07.440 lot of fun

00:39:08.000 doing it.

00:39:09.080 And half of

00:39:09.600 what he says

00:39:10.120 about social

00:39:10.880 justice warriors

00:39:11.760 and political

00:39:12.480 correctness and

00:39:13.480 Islamophobia is

00:39:15.920 very incisive

00:39:16.880 and amusing.

00:39:18.640 But he seems

00:39:19.700 to approach

00:39:20.400 everything as a

00:39:21.280 performance, and

00:39:22.700 this leaves me

00:39:23.260 wondering what he

00:39:23.940 actually believes.

00:39:24.960 So I don't

00:39:26.560 see him as a

00:39:27.240 natural ally for

00:39:28.320 what I'm doing.

00:39:29.340 But I do think

00:39:30.280 he's gotten

00:39:30.600 screwed by the

00:39:31.420 media.

00:39:32.080 His ban from

00:39:33.100 Twitter is

00:39:33.700 ridiculous, given

00:39:35.040 that Twitter

00:39:35.440 doesn't ban

00:39:36.080 jihadists with

00:39:37.080 any reliability.

00:39:38.760 There's definitely

00:39:39.220 a liberal media

00:39:40.200 bias that is

00:39:41.260 cutting against

00:39:41.940 people like

00:39:42.400 Milo, which

00:39:43.680 he and his

00:39:44.060 fans are

00:39:44.560 appropriately

00:39:45.120 outraged

00:39:45.960 about.

00:39:46.880 And as for

00:39:48.180 the alt-right,

00:39:49.660 for which Milo

00:39:50.460 is the poster

00:39:51.380 boy, I'm not

00:39:52.780 sure I can say

00:39:53.400 anything about

00:39:54.000 it that is

00:39:54.640 fair or

00:39:55.620 useful.

00:39:56.860 It seems to

00:39:57.640 contain some

00:39:58.560 smart people

00:39:59.520 who are

00:40:00.640 outraged by

00:40:01.820 outrageous

00:40:02.360 things, as

00:40:03.320 Milo seems to

00:40:04.220 be, at least

00:40:05.180 some of the

00:40:05.520 time.

00:40:06.320 And it

00:40:07.020 contains real

00:40:07.980 racist nitwits

00:40:09.360 and everything

00:40:10.800 in between.

00:40:11.800 It's a bit like

00:40:12.460 the Black Lives

00:40:13.160 Matter movement

00:40:13.800 in that respect,

00:40:15.460 which is to

00:40:16.240 say a totally

00:40:16.840 mixed bag,

00:40:17.880 and the net

00:40:18.760 result of which

00:40:19.740 is divisive,

00:40:21.960 in my view.

00:40:23.400 As far as I

00:40:24.080 can tell,

00:40:24.380 becoming a

00:40:25.000 part of a

00:40:25.680 movement doesn't

00:40:27.340 help anybody

00:40:28.140 think clearly.

00:40:29.900 So, I

00:40:31.280 distrust identity

00:40:33.020 politics of

00:40:34.120 all kinds.

00:40:35.360 I think we

00:40:35.760 should talk

00:40:36.120 about specific

00:40:36.920 issues, whether

00:40:38.500 it's trade, or

00:40:39.560 guns, or

00:40:40.560 immigration, or

00:40:42.240 foreign

00:40:42.720 interventions, or

00:40:44.420 abortion, or

00:40:45.220 anything else.

00:40:46.620 And we should

00:40:47.600 reason honestly

00:40:48.460 about them.

00:40:49.940 And I'm not

00:40:50.820 the first person

00:40:51.440 to notice that

00:40:52.040 it's pretty

00:40:52.520 strange that

00:40:54.500 knowing a

00:40:55.160 person's

00:40:55.640 position on

00:40:56.400 any one of

00:40:57.080 these issues

00:40:57.640 generally allows

00:40:59.160 you to predict

00:40:59.760 his position on

00:41:00.520 the others.

00:41:01.340 This shouldn't

00:41:02.080 happen.

00:41:03.200 Some of these

00:41:03.680 issues are

00:41:04.140 totally unrelated.

00:41:06.000 Why should a

00:41:06.540 person's attitude

00:41:07.300 toward guns be

00:41:09.300 predictive of

00:41:10.420 his views on

00:41:11.320 climate change,

00:41:12.300 or immigration,

00:41:14.080 or abortion?

00:41:15.460 And yet, it

00:41:16.580 almost certainly

00:41:17.240 is in our

00:41:18.080 society.

00:41:18.540 That's a sign

00:41:19.640 that people are

00:41:20.100 joining tribes

00:41:21.080 and movements.

00:41:22.340 It's not the

00:41:23.200 sign of clear

00:41:24.400 thinking.

00:41:25.120 If you're

00:41:25.780 reasoning honestly

00:41:26.820 about facts,

00:41:28.500 then the color

00:41:29.180 of your skin

00:41:30.000 is irrelevant.

00:41:31.840 The religion

00:41:32.740 of your parents

00:41:33.640 is irrelevant.

00:41:35.380 Whether you're

00:41:36.240 gay or straight

00:41:37.180 is irrelevant.

00:41:39.280 Your identity

00:41:40.320 is irrelevant.

00:41:42.340 In fact,

00:41:42.880 if you're

00:41:43.780 talking about

00:41:44.360 reality,

00:41:45.880 its character

00:41:46.580 can't be

00:41:47.420 predicated on

00:41:48.360 who you

00:41:49.020 happen to

00:41:49.540 be.

00:41:50.720 That's what

00:41:51.240 it means to

00:41:51.980 be talking

00:41:52.440 about reality.

00:41:54.500 And this

00:41:54.840 also applies

00:41:55.620 to the

00:41:55.940 reality of

00:41:56.700 human experience

00:41:57.740 and human

00:41:59.020 suffering.

00:42:00.540 For instance,

00:42:00.980 if vaccines

00:42:01.740 don't cause

00:42:02.800 autism,

00:42:03.860 if that is

00:42:04.780 just a fact,

00:42:06.340 and that's

00:42:06.700 what the

00:42:06.960 best science

00:42:07.580 suggests at

00:42:08.380 this point,

00:42:09.820 well then,

00:42:10.220 when arguing

00:42:10.820 against this

00:42:11.600 view,

00:42:12.480 you need

00:42:13.180 data or

00:42:14.480 a new

00:42:14.880 analysis of

00:42:15.720 existing data.

00:42:16.580 you need

00:42:17.440 an argument.

00:42:18.680 And the

00:42:19.160 nature of

00:42:19.740 any argument

00:42:20.300 is that its

00:42:21.720 validity doesn't

00:42:23.160 depend on

00:42:24.100 who you

00:42:24.760 are.

00:42:25.700 That's why

00:42:26.360 a good

00:42:26.640 argument should

00:42:27.560 be accepted

00:42:28.300 by others,

00:42:29.260 right?

00:42:30.040 No matter

00:42:30.560 who they

00:42:30.900 are.

00:42:31.580 So,

00:42:31.980 in the case

00:42:32.600 of vaccines

00:42:33.160 causing

00:42:33.520 autism,

00:42:34.100 you don't

00:42:34.640 get to

00:42:35.060 say,

00:42:36.080 as a

00:42:36.460 parent of

00:42:36.960 a child

00:42:37.440 with autism,

00:42:38.440 I believe

00:42:38.960 X,

00:42:39.260 Y,

00:42:39.460 and Z.

00:42:40.400 Whatever

00:42:40.960 is true

00:42:41.600 about the

00:42:41.940 biological

00:42:42.380 basis of

00:42:43.020 autism

00:42:43.400 can't

00:42:44.500 depend

00:42:44.980 on who

00:42:45.780 you are.

00:42:46.580 And who

00:42:47.420 you are

00:42:47.820 in this

00:42:48.140 case is

00:42:48.620 probably

00:42:49.000 adding a

00:42:49.600 level of

00:42:50.000 emotional

00:42:50.440 engagement

00:42:50.920 with the

00:42:51.260 issue,

00:42:51.560 which would

00:42:52.100 be totally

00:42:52.480 understandable,

00:42:53.540 but would

00:42:53.860 also be

00:42:54.640 unlikely to

00:42:55.440 lead you to

00:42:56.000 think about

00:42:56.500 it more

00:42:56.780 clearly.

00:42:57.860 The facts

00:42:58.340 are whatever

00:42:59.040 they are.

00:43:00.200 And it's

00:43:00.460 not an

00:43:00.980 accident that

00:43:02.400 being

00:43:02.700 disinterested,

00:43:04.120 not uninterested,

00:43:05.680 but disinterested,

00:43:07.200 that is not

00:43:07.760 being emotionally

00:43:08.620 engaged,

00:43:09.860 usually improves

00:43:10.740 a person's

00:43:11.180 ability to

00:43:11.680 reason about

00:43:12.320 the facts.

00:43:13.580 When talking

00:43:14.380 about violence

00:43:15.180 in our

00:43:15.560 society,

00:43:16.540 again,

00:43:16.920 the facts

00:43:17.300 are whatever

00:43:17.920 they are.

00:43:19.020 How many

00:43:19.480 people got

00:43:19.960 shot?

00:43:20.620 How many

00:43:21.140 died?

00:43:22.060 What was

00:43:22.500 the color

00:43:22.880 of their

00:43:23.240 skin?

00:43:23.960 Who shot

00:43:24.540 them?

00:43:25.320 What was

00:43:25.660 the color

00:43:26.000 of their

00:43:26.380 skin?

00:43:27.400 Getting a

00:43:27.980 handle on

00:43:28.660 these facts

00:43:29.320 doesn't require

00:43:31.060 one to say,

00:43:32.520 as a black

00:43:33.080 man,

00:43:33.840 I know

00:43:34.260 X,

00:43:34.580 Y,

00:43:34.800 and Z.

00:43:35.580 The color

00:43:36.380 of your

00:43:36.860 skin simply

00:43:37.820 isn't relevant

00:43:38.780 information.

00:43:40.200 When talking

00:43:41.020 about the

00:43:41.420 data,

00:43:42.300 that is what

00:43:42.960 is happening

00:43:43.580 throughout a

00:43:44.320 whole society,

00:43:45.840 your life

00:43:46.600 experience isn't

00:43:48.000 relevant information.

00:43:49.740 And the fact

00:43:50.400 that you think

00:43:50.900 it might be

00:43:51.720 is a problem.

00:43:53.740 And as you'll

00:43:54.460 hear in a minute,

00:43:55.080 it's a problem

00:43:55.460 I recently ran

00:43:56.180 into on another

00:43:56.880 podcast.

00:43:58.000 Now,

00:43:58.220 this isn't to

00:43:58.680 say that a

00:43:59.060 person's life

00:43:59.600 experience is

00:44:00.340 never relevant

00:44:01.240 to a

00:44:02.400 conversation.

00:44:03.280 Of course

00:44:03.980 it is.

00:44:05.180 And it can

00:44:05.820 be used to

00:44:06.460 establish certain

00:44:07.620 kinds of

00:44:08.040 facts.

00:44:08.400 I mean,

00:44:09.400 if someone

00:44:09.680 says to

00:44:10.060 you,

00:44:10.760 Catholics

00:44:11.120 don't

00:44:11.520 believe in

00:44:12.020 hell,

00:44:12.840 it's perfectly

00:44:14.180 valid to

00:44:14.980 retort,

00:44:15.820 actually,

00:44:16.660 my mom is

00:44:17.240 a Catholic

00:44:17.660 and she

00:44:18.420 believes in

00:44:18.940 hell.

00:44:19.840 Of course,

00:44:20.420 there's a

00:44:20.720 larger question

00:44:21.380 of what the

00:44:21.820 Catholic doctrine

00:44:22.560 actually is.

00:44:24.000 But if a

00:44:24.420 person is

00:44:24.900 making a

00:44:25.360 statement about

00:44:25.940 a certain

00:44:26.320 group of

00:44:26.680 people and

00:44:27.720 you are a

00:44:28.380 member of

00:44:28.920 the group,

00:44:29.660 you might

00:44:30.360 very well be

00:44:30.840 in a position

00:44:31.240 to falsify

00:44:32.140 his claim

00:44:33.600 on the basis

00:44:34.360 of your

00:44:34.680 experience.

00:44:35.780 But a

00:44:36.420 person's

00:44:37.000 identity and

00:44:37.880 life experience

00:44:38.720 often aren't

00:44:39.840 relevant when

00:44:40.960 talking about

00:44:41.520 facts.

00:44:42.460 And they're

00:44:42.800 usually invoked

00:44:43.680 in ways that

00:44:44.200 are clearly

00:44:44.880 fallacious.

00:44:46.160 And many

00:44:46.580 people seem

00:44:47.060 to be making

00:44:47.500 a political

00:44:48.300 religion out

00:44:49.660 of ignoring

00:44:50.240 this difference.

00:44:52.340 So I

00:44:53.340 urge you not

00:44:54.160 to be one

00:44:54.640 of those

00:44:54.900 people,

00:44:55.600 whether you're

00:44:56.200 on the left

00:44:56.700 or on the

00:44:57.100 right.

00:44:58.240 Now there

00:44:58.420 were several

00:44:59.020 other questions

00:44:59.720 here asking

00:45:00.640 me to describe

00:45:01.400 my political

00:45:02.040 beliefs.

00:45:03.160 Now it's

00:45:03.360 hard to do

00:45:03.740 in a way

00:45:04.020 that won't

00:45:04.540 give people

00:45:04.960 false

00:45:05.300 assumptions.

00:45:05.720 I'm

00:45:07.020 definitely

00:45:07.300 left of

00:45:07.820 center on

00:45:08.420 most issues.

00:45:09.340 I think

00:45:09.540 we want

00:45:09.820 a social

00:45:10.280 safety net

00:45:11.020 below which

00:45:11.620 we don't

00:45:12.100 want anyone

00:45:12.560 to fall.

00:45:13.560 But I

00:45:13.880 think we

00:45:14.240 should use

00:45:14.960 government

00:45:15.480 and its

00:45:16.640 legal machinery

00:45:17.460 rather sparingly.

00:45:19.760 The problem

00:45:20.700 with having

00:45:21.060 too many

00:45:21.520 laws is

00:45:22.840 that to

00:45:23.100 enforce them

00:45:23.940 you need

00:45:24.780 to back

00:45:25.180 them up

00:45:25.700 with the

00:45:26.120 threat of

00:45:26.520 violence.

00:45:27.600 If you're

00:45:28.060 going to

00:45:28.240 criminalize

00:45:28.800 drug use

00:45:29.460 for instance

00:45:30.040 you've

00:45:30.940 decided that

00:45:31.420 you're

00:45:31.560 willing to

00:45:31.900 send people

00:45:32.500 to kick

00:45:32.940 in your

00:45:33.220 neighbor's

00:45:33.680 door with

00:45:34.740 guns drawn

00:45:35.700 and haul

00:45:36.900 him off

00:45:37.260 to jail

00:45:37.700 for doing

00:45:38.140 something as

00:45:38.620 innocuous as

00:45:39.340 smoking pot.

00:45:40.520 Not only is

00:45:41.200 this unethical

00:45:41.980 it's dangerous

00:45:43.340 for everyone

00:45:44.040 involved and

00:45:45.760 it's a patently

00:45:46.560 insane use

00:45:47.780 of resources.

00:45:49.320 So I'm

00:45:50.400 basically a

00:45:50.900 libertarian in

00:45:51.840 feeling that

00:45:52.320 peaceful honest

00:45:52.980 people have

00:45:53.460 the right to

00:45:53.840 be left

00:45:54.160 alone.

00:45:55.180 And I do

00:45:55.540 think government

00:45:56.140 should get

00:45:56.620 out of

00:45:56.860 their lives.

00:45:57.640 If you'd

00:45:58.180 like to

00:45:58.440 continue

00:45:58.720 listening to

00:45:59.180 this

00:45:59.340 conversation

00:45:59.880 you'll

00:46:00.580 need to

00:46:00.860 subscribe

00:46:01.220 at

00:46:01.560 samharris.org

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00:46:22.340 like

00:46:25.200 ascender

00:46:25.680 in

00:46:27.460 name

00:46:28.960 in

00:46:29.440 me

00:46:30.680 and

00:46:31.240 in

00:46:35.280 as

00:46:35.300 as

00:46:36.000 as

00:46:36.400 seeing

00:46:36.920 them

00:46:38.780 as

00:46:39.140 as

00:46:40.880 as

00:46:41.500 as

00:46:44.640 as

00:46:44.960 as

00:46:46.640 as

00:46:47.060 as

00:46:47.840 as

00:46:48.440 as

00:46:50.040 as

Making Sense - Sam Harris - September 13, 2016

#45 — Ask Me Anything 5

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