#457 — More From Sam： The Epstein Files, The Newsom Factor, Don Lemon's Arrest, AI Market Disruption, and More
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Summary
On this week's episode of the Making Sense Podcast, Sam Harris joins me to talk about a family emergency that forced a rescheduling of two of her upcoming live events, and how she handled it. We also talk about the Epstein scandal, and whether or not it's really as bad as it appears.
Transcript
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Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're
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hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing
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the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense
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Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samharris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore
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it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're
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doing here, please consider becoming one. Okay, we're back so soon again with another
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episode of More From Sam. Hello, Sam. Hey, good to see you. Yeah, good to see you as well. Before
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we begin, I just want to run through a little housekeeping. I want to apologize to all those
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in Dallas and Austin this week for having to postpone our shows due to a family medical
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emergency. We have rescheduled those shows for May 20th in Dallas and May 21st in Austin. We are
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sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused, but in time, I'm sure Sam will share more. I don't
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know, Sam, if you want to say anything quickly now, or if we should just move on. Yeah, it's, um,
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this is the thing, as you know, that I really hate about live events. They're like the one thing that
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if life goes haywire, it's really difficult to cancel or reschedule. I've been to events, you know,
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my own events where people have come up and said, I mean, I think I was, there was one in Vancouver
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or Toronto and a couple came up and said they had traveled from Australia for the event. And
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obviously that's just amazing to hear and wonderful. But I think of those people on the rare occasion
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that an event has to be rescheduled or canceled because I know there are people who are just coming
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out of a hotel expecting to go to, um, an event in Dallas, um, and, uh, they're getting their email or
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not seeing their email that it was, it was rescheduled. So that just gives me serious brain
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damage. And it was not likely that we canceled this, but we're, yeah, we're, I've got a family
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member who had to go in the hospital yesterday and, um, I don't want to get into private details,
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but it's a, it's a big deal and it's, you know, it's stable at the moment, but it's very good that
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I'm in town. So. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that. We are still coming to Portland and Vancouver in
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March and then Toronto, DC and New York city as well in May. If you want to get tickets,
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you can find all that information at samharris.org. Also, we talked about the waking up, uh, app last
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week, getting, uh, featured in the Apple store. Things continue to heat up there again. Thanks in
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part from that Apple promotion. But, um, I, you know, I make this joke often. I think this podcast
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and media in general makes everyone crazy. And then we sell the app that offers the cure. We're
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kind of like the mafia over here, but seriously, if you're listening to this podcast and you feel
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unsettled anyway, you'd like to learn how to fix that, go to the app store and you can download the
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waking up app. And if you can't afford it, you can get a free account. If you can pay,
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please do that. But if you can't, don't worry about it. You can take it free. And also while
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I'm just talking about that, we don't offer free accounts over here in the podcast anymore,
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but we still offer steep discounts. So if you can't afford to pay the subscription price,
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there is a button on the right side of the subscription page, just under Sam's picture that
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reads for more pricing options, click here. So click there. If you need a scholarship,
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I think there are a few additional pricing options. Okay. With all that out of the way,
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we've been saying the Epstein files were going to be a nothing burger and it appears we may have
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gotten that wrong. Where do you want to start, Sam? Well, it turns out that I'm in them,
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which I was not anticipating. So we should talk about that.
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Well, you don't need to start there. We can come back to that unless you want to start there.
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Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess, well, you know, we're going to make light of this because it's
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kind of funny the way I'm in them, but I don't want there to be any confusion around, you know,
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how I perceive the larger issue here. I mean, I'm not, obviously nothing I'm about to say is going
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to make light of what a monster Epstein was and how good it is that, I mean, in my view, at least that
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the files are coming out. And, you know, obviously anyone who participated in his actual crimes
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deserves to be prosecuted and all of that. And I think we're probably going to differentiate the
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degrees of culpability that we perceive insofar as we've seen what has been released in this
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recent tranche. Because I think there's a fair amount of confusion around just how implicated
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people are. But obviously the man himself was awful and he did awful things. And there are people
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who enabled those things or participated in the abuse and trafficking of young girls. And it's
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just, you know, we want nothing but justice for those people, et cetera. And I also don't mean to
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make light of the people who are like me in these files in a way that is peripheral to one or another
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degree. And it may be properly fucking up their lives and reputations because people are not disposed
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to differentiate the degrees of culpability, et cetera. So, you know, I know, I'm sure I know many,
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many people who are mentioned in these files because now I see how, you know, how the network
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is kind of strung together based on these email chains. And, you know, some of them are, might
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really be sweating it out for no real reason, except they have institutions that may want to fire
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them as a result of, you know, some weird implication that may be meaningless, et cetera. So I don't mean to
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make light of any of that, but I'm going to make light of my own situation because I got a big laugh
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out of it last night. So. Yeah. Well, let's, uh, do you want to start there? Do we want to kind
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of talk about how there are gradations here? I'll start wherever you want. I just think we
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should go back to the, the, the, the idea that there's a spectrum here and how this is very similar
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to me too. At a moment when, you know, someone like Matt Damon had early on said that there are,
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there are gradations to this. There's a difference between slapping a girl in the ass and, and,
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and raping somebody. And he just got killed for that. I mean, obviously early on,
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everybody wants to lump everybody together and, you know, here Epstein is the Harvey Weinstein and
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the, we really need to put everybody on a spectrum and, and, and be clear-eyed about this. And I
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didn't know if you wanted to set that up, what that might look like to you. Well, I guess, again,
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I don't consider myself a, a deep student of, of what has been released or, or the, the reporting
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that's been done on Epstein and the, and his victims and the specifics of all his crimes. So, I mean,
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this is kind of like a high level reaction to what I've seen, which is typical of, of scandals like
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this though, which is to say people don't tend to want to differentiate gradations of guilt. Well,
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first, I mean, I think you, I forget the words you use. I think you differentiated, you know,
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criminals from pigs, from jerks, from people with poor judgment. Right. Yeah. And I think there's all
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of that. So, yeah, I mean, there, I do think it's a little too soon to vindicate the proper conspiracy
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theorists, you know, the pizza gators, the QAnon lunatics, uh, who really are lunatics. I mean,
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when you look, look at the rest of what they have claimed is true, I mean, even, even if the worst
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allegations about Epstein or the worst, um, uh, assumptions about Epstein and his network are true,
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this does not redeem pizza gate or QAnon. I mean, those people are just mad, but I think we should
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be slow to, um, imagine that there are a ton of guys out there who want to have sex with 13 year
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olds. From what I've seen, I mean, and I don't even imagine that of president Trump as much as I'm,
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I'm capable of imagining the worst about him. Uh, I mean, I think he is a, just a genuinely awful
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person and a psychopath. You know, I would be surprised again, this, I think there are yet
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3 million more documents that have not been released. Uh, and presumably those are being held
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back for some reason, some strategic reason on the administration's part. So perhaps there's worse
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to come for Trump, but I would, would find it difficult to believe or, or to assume that he's
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the sort of guy that if you put him on an Island and, and handed him a, a 13, 14 year old girl,
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that's the kind of situation he wants to be in sexually. I just, I mean, I don't think that,
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I think that's a pretty rare person who shared Epstein's proclivities, right? So my assumption about
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all of this is still, you have a bunch of, um, guys who are, uh, eager to, you know, cheat on their
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wives or to sleep with young, beautiful women who they, they don't want necessarily want to be seen
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with in public, but these young, beautiful women are not underage for the most part, right? So you
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have these, I mean, and we can be very judgmental about all this behavior, sure, but it still strikes
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me as extraordinarily unlikely that there are many people who are guilty the way Epstein was of,
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you know, targeting underage girls, knowingly targeting, uh, underage girls. I just think
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that's, that would be a surprise and, you know, obviously awful, uh, and worth, and because how
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it's so awful, it is worth investigating to the last line of these emails and by all means find all
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these people. But I, I just, I will be surprised if we find a lot of those people. What will not
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surprise me is to discover that people like, you know, Donald Trump and Bill Gates and all the other
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people who are named are happy to find themselves on airplanes or islands or anywhere else with,
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you know, 20 year old Russian models who are eager to sleep with them because they're basically
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functioning like prostitutes and these guys are pigs. That would not surprise me. So that's why I'm
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certainly expecting we're going to find evidence of, and that in many cases, that's probably embarrassing
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enough, especially given that many of these guys had relationships with Epstein that were deep
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enough and long enough such that you can't believe they didn't know what he was into. And I, and I,
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I, I don't believe that Trump was ignorant of, of Epstein's actual appetites and behavior because I
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mean, cause he, he, we have it from his own mouth where he said, um, you know, he, some say he loves,
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uh, beautiful women as much as I do. And there, and you know, his are on the young side or something
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like what, what the only thing that could mean is that Trump was aware of, uh, cause he had Trump's,
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uh, conquests were surely young enough so that when he's talking about the young side,
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he's talking about what Epstein was actually into. So I think Trump is, can probably be hung
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based on his, the extent of his friendship with Epstein. You know, I, I trust that could all be
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forthcoming, but again, I would be surprised if Trump is the sort of guy who wants to sleep with
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a 13 year old. That would surprise me. Right. I think you're right. The awareness factor when people
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knew and what they knew will come into play. Yeah. But there is, there is a difference between
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what Epstein was doing and piggish behavior. Yeah. A huge difference. I mean, again, it's not to say
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that the piggish behavior isn't going to be enough to destroy some reputations because you, you have
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guys who are cheating on their wives, et cetera. And. But that's not what this is all about. I mean,
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that's not. No, but the thing that it's about, in addition to Epstein's crimes and anyone else who,
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who's participating at that level, what it's about is a network of very rich, uh, very connected,
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in many cases, very smart people, many of whom you have to assume knew about his crimes and tolerated
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and enduring association with him, you know, under the shadow of that knowledge. Uh, and that seems
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like a, you know, a kind of culpability that a lot of people are getting hammered for now.
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You don't think it's possible that he had two operations going and one that was more secretive
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for himself? At the beginning, I suggested that, but I do, I just think that, I think a lot of people
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knew that they knew about his earlier conviction. They certainly knew when the, the big story broke
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in 2018 and they maintained a friendship with him and they hung out with him enough to know that,
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you know, he was into, you know, 14 year olds or whatever he was into. I mean, so you really,
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you really think they knew that it was some sort of rumor around there and they hadn't seen it and
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they just kind of looked the other way because there was convenience there. And, you know,
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again, I do not consider myself especially well-informed about, I mean, I've not gone down this
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rabbit hole, uh, to know just how many allegations there are and what they're like and just how
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plausible it is that it could all have been hidden. I mean, you're talking about people who,
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you know, some, in many cases who went to his Island, who went to his ranch and in New Mexico,
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went to his house many times or on his plane. If you're imagining that he kept two sets of books
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sexually so carefully that he just, you know, he always knew to be with a, with a girl 18 or above
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in the presence of, of normies and then, you know, let his, his pedophile freak flag fly,
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uh, in the presence of other freaks. And he kept all that straight. That seems a little far
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fetched to me. I'm sure. Again, I think Trump's statement about he likes him on the young side
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is absolutely damning. Right. But just because Trump knew doesn't mean, you know, someone like
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Bill Gates knew. I mean, it's entirely possible that, uh, people are on these trips and they didn't
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see anything. And I mean, just the explanation to me makes more sense that someone like a Bill Gates
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just maybe heard rumors or, uh, it just, it makes sense that he'd be willing to look the other way,
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um, and just shrug it off to some rumor. I don't think he would have seen it or witnessed it. I just
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have a hard time believing that he would continue to put himself in this guy's presence. If he saw that,
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if he really knew. I have a hard time believing that in many, many cases. I don't have a hard time
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believing that in Trump's case, given what he said, what a pig he is. But, um, yeah, I, and this
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is, so, I mean, like just a little, perhaps just jump to my case now, which I've spoken about on
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the podcast before, which is a, I met this man exactly once, as far as I know, uh, it's totally
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possible. I was at, at some kind of, you know, party or dinner party, you know, at a TED conference,
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very likely, where he was also in the room. But the only time I'm aware of having met him was at a
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lunch at TED that had maybe 12 people at it. And I described the immediate impression I got,
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which was that he's a, he was a colossal douchebag because he had a, um, you know, very attractive
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young Asian woman on his knee, kind of bouncing along on his knee, you know, the whole, during
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the whole lunch. And it was pretty clear they weren't newlyweds or, or, or, uh, newly engaged
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or people who just, you know, who were going to spend the rest of their lives together and just
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couldn't be apart for 10 seconds. Uh, I guess there's some perhaps romantic version of this
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is not invidious, but the scene I saw was of a guy who was with a woman who was at least 30 years
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younger than him. Uh, again, zero implication that she was underage. I mean, she seemed like she was
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probably in her early twenties, but, um, just very young for him. And also he was the way he was
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relating to her. He was as a kind of, you know, accessory, you know, it was just a weird sugar daddy
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vibe where he thought he was coming off like, you know, Cary Grant and he was, you know, he was
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coming off like a total sleazebag. So that was the impression I formed of him. And as far as I knew,
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that was my only interaction with him ever. And now we discover that he, um, had sent me an email
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inviting me. I mean, do you want to take it now? Do you want to read that email?
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Yeah. Let's start with this. So this is what was discovered. Epstein to you, Sam, we met with
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John Brockman at the Ted event. I thought you might enjoy a dinner with Woody Allen Chomsky
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and me. It should be fun. What do you write? By the way, this is May of 2015. What do you write
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back? Oh my God. You could have been killed for this. You said only if we film it, smiley face.
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Oh my God, how bad this could have been. Only if we film it. Meanwhile, this guy's head must've been
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like, he must've been like, how does he know? Does he want in on the cabal? So he writes back,
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are you ever in New York? You write back, no plans at the moment. I guess then maybe the final one,
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which this really, I mean, you could have been in trouble had he not exonerated you with this.
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He said, I just finished your reading, reading your Chomsky email exchange in arts, I guess,
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letters. I now understand your film it comment. I spent quite a lot of time. I mean, do you want
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me to read the whole thing, but I mean, you can't, I mean, this is so.
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