Making Sense - Sam Harris - February 18, 2015


#6 — The Chapel Hill Murders and 'Militant' Atheism


Episode Stats

Length

12 minutes

Words per Minute

138.9197

Word Count

1,712

Sentence Count

97

Hate Speech Sentences

12


Summary

In the wake of the recent triple murder in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, atheists are quick to point the finger at the religion of Islam. But there is no evidence that Islam is responsible for these acts of violence, and no evidence to suggest that atheists are responsible for anything like this at all. In fact, Islam is the source of most violence in the world, not the cause of it. And if we are decent human beings, we will recognize as being morally insane, a man who is merely holding a relative's bloodied hands, or a relative who is not a relative at all, is not merely holding your hands with your blood, but is holding your blood in your hands, as in, "Blood is not blood, adultery, blasphemy, or blood is blood, it is blood." Sam Harris is a writer, essayist, and philosopher. and a frequent contributor to the New York Times, and a regular contributor to Salon and The Huffington Post. His work is widely well-known and appreciated. He is the author of several books, including The Dark Side of Islam: A Guide to Understanding Islam and the Islamophobia that goes with it. He is also a frequent guest on the BBC Radio 4 show The View From The Hill, and the host of the podcast Making Sense, which he co-hosted with his wife, Raffaella Barbu, and hosts a podcast with her husband, Reza Aslan, on the podcast The Islamophobia Project. , and he is a regular on the radio show The Jihadist Project, The Jihadism and The Islamism, Jihadism, and so much more, he is one of the most influential people in the Muslim right now in the modern world, and he also writes for the New Statesman, and writes for The Nation, and has a book out in the New Republic, and is a podcast in the new podcast, The Human Rights Watch, The New York Review, and The Atlantic, he also has a new book, The Last Face, which is out in paperback, The White House has a podcast on the streets of New York, which you should be listening to. . And so much so that you should listen to this episode of Making Sense: The Making Sense Podcast, you can get a copy of the Making Sense podcast on all of it? Subscribe to Making Sense by Sam Harris, you ll be sure to check it out on Amazon Prime and subscribe on your favorite podcast directories, too!


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.
00:00:08.980 This is Sam Harris.
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00:00:46.840 As many of you know,
00:00:48.020 there was recently a triple murder
00:00:49.800 in Chapel Hill, North Carolina,
00:00:52.360 committed by a person named Craig Stephen Hicks,
00:00:57.160 who is still alive.
00:00:58.660 This is not a suicide murder.
00:01:01.460 So undoubtedly we'll one day hear
00:01:03.380 what his conscious motives were.
00:01:05.440 But he killed three young people,
00:01:09.460 apparently over a parking space.
00:01:11.700 At least that was the subject of their dispute.
00:01:15.880 But he happens to have been a person
00:01:18.020 who identified as an atheist on his Facebook page
00:01:21.940 and expressed admiration for people like Richard Dawkins.
00:01:26.440 He might have said something about me.
00:01:27.820 I'm actually not sure.
00:01:29.620 But he was self-identified as an atheist
00:01:32.640 and critical of all religion,
00:01:35.540 apparently, on his Facebook page.
00:01:36.780 And because the victims of this crime were Muslim,
00:01:42.700 it is now being widely described as a hate crime.
00:01:46.580 And it, in fact, is being described as
00:01:50.620 a symptom of a problem
00:01:52.940 that we have in the atheist community,
00:01:55.000 a problem of militancy,
00:01:58.380 a problem of anti-Muslim bigotry.
00:02:00.960 And many people are claiming
00:02:02.720 that I am somehow responsible for this,
00:02:05.460 both for the background problem
00:02:07.600 and for the murders themselves,
00:02:09.680 which is quite an amazing thing to be accused of.
00:02:13.240 So it seems to me
00:02:14.400 there's a fair amount of moral confusion here
00:02:16.700 and also just factual confusion
00:02:18.980 about the reality of human violence
00:02:21.100 in the U.S. and elsewhere.
00:02:22.700 But the first thing to say
00:02:25.480 is that I feel nothing but horror over this crime.
00:02:29.000 These people were killed
00:02:31.040 in the very prime of their life,
00:02:33.660 at the beginning of their adult lives.
00:02:36.560 And they were, by all accounts, marvelous people.
00:02:39.120 I can only imagine,
00:02:40.940 in fact, I can't imagine,
00:02:42.640 the grief of their parents and their loved ones.
00:02:45.740 So there's absolutely nothing in my work
00:02:49.000 or in my mind
00:02:50.460 that is supportive of a crime like this.
00:02:52.980 And I would have hoped
00:02:54.260 that could go without saying.
00:02:55.680 I think in this context,
00:02:56.780 it probably can't.
00:02:58.360 Nevertheless,
00:02:58.960 the deluge of claims
00:03:00.580 of equivalence
00:03:02.180 between this crime
00:03:04.000 and the Charlie Hebdo atrocity
00:03:06.140 or the daily behavior
00:03:07.900 of a group like ISIS
00:03:09.200 has been astonishing to witness.
00:03:12.800 And you can sense
00:03:13.860 that people have just been waiting
00:03:15.480 for a crime like this
00:03:17.040 that could conceivably be pinned
00:03:20.080 on atheism.
00:03:21.760 But, of course,
00:03:22.260 the analogy between
00:03:24.060 militant atheism
00:03:26.080 and militant Islam
00:03:27.760 is a terrible one.
00:03:29.280 It is an anti-analogy.
00:03:30.660 It is false in every respect.
00:03:33.200 Atheists are simply not out there
00:03:34.840 harming people
00:03:35.760 on the basis of their atheism.
00:03:37.940 Now, there may be atheists
00:03:39.020 who do terrible things,
00:03:41.000 but there's no atheist doctrine
00:03:43.340 or scripture.
00:03:44.900 And insofar as any of us
00:03:45.820 have written books
00:03:46.700 or created arguments
00:03:48.120 that have persuaded people,
00:03:50.240 these books and arguments,
00:03:51.360 insofar as they're atheistic,
00:03:52.980 only relate to
00:03:54.380 the bad evidence
00:03:55.980 put forward
00:03:56.840 in defense of a belief in God.
00:03:58.940 There's no argument
00:04:00.440 in atheism
00:04:01.700 that suggests
00:04:02.800 that you should hate
00:04:03.960 or victimize
00:04:05.080 or stigmatize
00:04:06.180 whole groups of people
00:04:07.740 as there often is
00:04:09.080 in revealed religion.
00:04:11.400 And what we're seeing
00:04:12.020 is that people like
00:04:12.700 Glenn Greenwald
00:04:13.480 and Reza Aslan
00:04:14.500 and the usual suspects,
00:04:16.200 the bevy of apologists
00:04:17.740 for theocracy
00:04:18.600 in the Muslim world,
00:04:20.300 are using
00:04:20.940 this very real tragedy
00:04:22.460 in Chapel Hill
00:04:24.220 to try to stoke
00:04:26.200 a kind of mob mentality
00:04:28.200 around the,
00:04:29.800 an imagined atheist campaign
00:04:32.520 of bigotry
00:04:33.740 against Muslims.
00:04:34.840 It's an incredibly cynical
00:04:36.480 and tendentious
00:04:38.080 and opportunistic
00:04:39.780 and ultimately dangerous
00:04:41.120 thing to do.
00:04:41.980 Of course,
00:04:43.300 people like Glenn Greenwald
00:04:44.400 and Reza Aslan
00:04:45.180 are alleging
00:04:45.860 that there's some kind
00:04:46.480 of double standard here,
00:04:47.820 that atheists are so quick
00:04:49.940 to detect
00:04:50.720 a religious motivation
00:04:52.140 in the misbehavior
00:04:53.820 of Muslims worldwide,
00:04:55.440 but when it comes
00:04:56.060 to their own,
00:04:56.760 well then they discount
00:04:57.700 the role played
00:04:59.400 by atheism.
00:05:01.840 But this is just
00:05:02.820 a total misrepresentation
00:05:04.740 of how an atheist
00:05:06.200 like myself
00:05:07.060 thinks about human violence.
00:05:09.300 It is simply obvious
00:05:10.160 that some instances
00:05:11.240 of Muslim violence
00:05:12.180 have nothing whatsoever
00:05:13.500 to do with Islam.
00:05:15.140 And I would never dream
00:05:17.160 of assigning blame
00:05:19.500 to the religion of Islam
00:05:21.300 for that behavior.
00:05:22.900 And to my knowledge,
00:05:23.880 I never have.
00:05:24.960 And insofar as I'm ever confused
00:05:26.560 about the source
00:05:27.400 of Muslim violence,
00:05:29.280 well then I apologize
00:05:30.940 in advance
00:05:31.780 for that confusion.
00:05:33.120 But the problem,
00:05:34.480 of course,
00:05:34.860 is that there are teachings
00:05:36.540 within Islam
00:05:37.200 that explicitly recommend,
00:05:39.680 in fact demand,
00:05:41.180 violence in certain circumstances.
00:05:43.060 Circumstances which we
00:05:44.180 in the 21st century,
00:05:45.680 if we are decent human beings,
00:05:47.420 will recognize
00:05:48.480 as being morally insane.
00:05:51.620 Apostasy,
00:05:52.660 blasphemy,
00:05:53.720 adultery,
00:05:54.940 merely holding hands
00:05:56.280 with a man
00:05:57.000 who is not your
00:05:57.940 blood relative
00:05:59.060 or husband,
00:06:00.760 if you are a woman
00:06:02.920 unlucky enough
00:06:03.700 to be born
00:06:04.260 in a country
00:06:04.940 like Afghanistan.
00:06:06.280 These are
00:06:07.160 rather often
00:06:08.280 killing offenses.
00:06:09.900 And the link
00:06:10.440 between the doctrine,
00:06:13.020 as it is understood
00:06:14.300 by Islamists
00:06:15.780 and jihadists
00:06:16.520 at this point,
00:06:17.460 and the behavior
00:06:18.180 is explicit,
00:06:19.920 it's logical,
00:06:21.340 it is absolutely
00:06:22.720 unambiguous.
00:06:24.080 And yet this doesn't
00:06:24.640 prevent people
00:06:25.120 from denying it
00:06:25.920 at every turn.
00:06:27.340 Now there is no such link
00:06:28.700 between atheism
00:06:30.100 or secularism
00:06:31.640 and violence
00:06:33.720 of any kind
00:06:34.440 in any circumstance.
00:06:36.000 There's nothing
00:06:36.360 about rejecting
00:06:37.560 the truth claims
00:06:39.380 of religious dogmatists.
00:06:40.940 There's nothing
00:06:41.280 about doubting
00:06:42.200 that the universe
00:06:43.280 has a creator
00:06:44.540 that suggests
00:06:45.820 that violence
00:06:46.460 in certain circumstances
00:06:47.560 is necessary
00:06:48.340 or even acceptable.
00:06:50.200 And all the people
00:06:50.740 who are comparing
00:06:51.440 these murders
00:06:52.160 to Charlie Hebdo
00:06:53.300 or to ISIS,
00:06:54.740 as insane
00:06:55.720 as that sounds,
00:06:57.140 are really trivializing
00:06:59.140 a kind of violence
00:07:01.020 that threatens
00:07:02.300 to destabilize
00:07:03.440 much of the world.
00:07:05.360 And ironically,
00:07:06.100 it is violence
00:07:06.940 whose principal victims
00:07:08.700 are Muslim.
00:07:10.740 I would also point out
00:07:11.940 that the idea
00:07:12.720 that there's some kind
00:07:13.480 of epidemic
00:07:14.180 of hate crime
00:07:15.320 against Muslims
00:07:16.220 in the United States
00:07:17.240 is totally at odds
00:07:19.860 with the facts.
00:07:20.920 You need only check
00:07:21.600 the FBI website
00:07:22.940 and you'll see
00:07:24.160 that there is
00:07:25.100 no such wave
00:07:26.000 of religious bigotry
00:07:27.800 directed against Muslims
00:07:29.420 or directed against anyone
00:07:30.640 at all, in fact.
00:07:31.580 Hate crime
00:07:32.160 is a very rare offense.
00:07:36.240 Five people
00:07:37.260 were murdered
00:07:38.080 on the basis
00:07:38.720 of hate crime
00:07:39.500 in 2013.
00:07:43.080 And when you look
00:07:43.920 at the hate crimes
00:07:45.540 directed at people
00:07:46.380 based on religious bigotry,
00:07:48.380 the crimes against Jews
00:07:50.700 based on anti-Semitism
00:07:52.300 outnumber the crimes
00:07:54.080 against Muslims
00:07:54.980 five to one.
00:07:56.760 And this is every year
00:07:58.060 and this is even in 2002
00:08:00.300 in the immediate aftermath
00:08:01.680 of 9-11.
00:08:02.700 So if we're going to be concerned
00:08:03.820 about hate crime
00:08:04.520 in the U.S.,
00:08:05.560 we should be concerned
00:08:06.180 about anti-Semitism
00:08:07.080 before we worry about
00:08:08.420 anti-Muslim hate crime.
00:08:10.780 And the level of anti-Semitism
00:08:12.380 in the U.S.
00:08:13.400 is minuscule
00:08:14.260 when you're talking about
00:08:15.400 violence against persons.
00:08:18.260 Now I wouldn't say
00:08:18.720 the same thing of France,
00:08:19.720 but in the U.S.,
00:08:21.140 it is virtually
00:08:22.140 a non-problem.
00:08:23.980 Especially when you compare it
00:08:25.280 to the tens of thousands
00:08:26.500 of ordinary murders
00:08:27.780 and rapes
00:08:28.500 and aggravated assaults
00:08:30.420 that happen
00:08:30.980 on the basis
00:08:31.960 of purely
00:08:32.720 interpersonal violence.
00:08:35.260 People are saying
00:08:36.000 that this could not
00:08:37.420 possibly have been
00:08:38.500 a triple murder
00:08:40.200 born of a neighbor's dispute
00:08:42.820 over a parking space.
00:08:44.600 But this is the most common form
00:08:46.460 of interpersonal violence.
00:08:47.860 It never makes sense
00:08:49.120 on paper.
00:08:49.780 You're talking about people
00:08:50.660 who fail to regulate
00:08:53.620 their emotional states
00:08:55.020 and they have,
00:08:56.600 in the U.S.,
00:08:57.640 ready access to weaponry
00:09:00.180 that makes it incredibly easy
00:09:01.880 to kill someone impulsively.
00:09:04.540 So hate crime per se
00:09:05.680 is not a major problem.
00:09:07.080 And the people
00:09:07.460 who are trying to whip up
00:09:08.720 a frenzy of concern
00:09:10.640 over the ambient level
00:09:12.440 of bigotry
00:09:13.300 and intolerance
00:09:14.240 and violence
00:09:14.940 against Muslims
00:09:15.800 in the U.S.
00:09:17.020 are really trying
00:09:17.940 to engineer
00:09:18.420 a kind of moral panic
00:09:19.800 designed to distract people
00:09:21.540 from the real problems
00:09:22.900 that Muslims face
00:09:23.980 and that we all face,
00:09:25.380 frankly,
00:09:25.800 which is this basic
00:09:27.200 incompatibility
00:09:28.360 between a 7th century theocracy
00:09:30.880 and our collective aspiration
00:09:32.800 to build a truly pluralistic
00:09:35.480 and global civil society.
00:09:37.740 You can understand this
00:09:38.780 all through the lens
00:09:39.660 of free speech, right?
00:09:41.780 This is where,
00:09:42.600 this is all you need
00:09:43.320 to consider,
00:09:44.560 a phenomenon like Charlie Hebdo
00:09:46.020 or the satanic verses.
00:09:48.340 And for some reason,
00:09:49.820 people on the left
00:09:50.660 have aligned themselves
00:09:52.580 with theocrats
00:09:54.200 and people
00:09:55.800 who are truly intolerant
00:09:57.560 and tolerant
00:09:58.200 of the very liberal values
00:10:00.000 that apologists
00:10:01.800 for Islam
00:10:02.440 think they're enunciating.
00:10:04.120 As I've said before,
00:10:05.020 tolerance of intolerance
00:10:06.520 is just cowardice
00:10:07.820 and it's a cowardice
00:10:09.540 that's increasingly consequential.
00:10:11.900 So this analogy
00:10:12.860 between so-called
00:10:14.040 militant atheism
00:10:15.100 and militant Islam
00:10:16.460 is essentially
00:10:17.880 a moral hoax.
00:10:20.160 The thing that very few people
00:10:21.700 seem able to distinguish
00:10:22.940 and the distinction
00:10:23.820 that Greenwald and Aslan
00:10:25.420 obfuscate at every opportunity
00:10:27.720 is the difference
00:10:29.600 between criticizing ideas
00:10:31.940 and their results
00:10:33.580 in the world
00:10:34.120 and hating people
00:10:36.100 as people
00:10:36.820 because they belong
00:10:38.340 to a certain group
00:10:39.240 or because they have
00:10:41.060 a certain skin color
00:10:42.020 or because they came
00:10:42.700 from a certain country.
00:10:43.560 There is no connection
00:10:45.860 between those two orientations.
00:10:48.040 The latter is,
00:10:49.260 of course,
00:10:49.520 bigotry
00:10:50.000 and I would condemn it
00:10:52.120 as harshly
00:10:52.720 as anyone would hope.
00:10:54.580 But criticizing ideas
00:10:55.940 and their consequences
00:10:57.020 is absolutely essential
00:10:58.820 and that is the spirit
00:11:00.640 in which I have criticized
00:11:01.960 Islam
00:11:03.160 in various flavors
00:11:04.540 and Christianity
00:11:05.760 and Judaism
00:11:06.680 and Buddhism
00:11:07.860 and all of these
00:11:09.940 criticisms are different
00:11:10.960 because these belief systems
00:11:12.320 are different.
00:11:13.760 So that's the distinction
00:11:14.920 that one has to recognize
00:11:16.900 and the clarity
00:11:18.040 of that distinction
00:11:18.640 leads to a kind
00:11:20.140 of experience
00:11:20.700 in the world
00:11:21.100 that our critics
00:11:22.300 seem to not imagine.
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