Joseph Goldstein is a meditation teacher and founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Barrie, MA. In this episode, we talk about why we should meditate, how to get started, and why negative emotions last so long when we focus on them. We also talk about selflessness, the Buddhist concept of enlightenment, and the benefits of meditation in general. Joseph is available to you right now on an app as a Meditation teacher. If you are hungry for a meditation app, you can get Joseph s immediately, called 10% Happier, which is called "10% Happier" and is available for beta testing soon. As always, as always, if you find conversations like this valuable, you are free and encouraged to support the podcast at Samharris.org/Making Sense. You can also become a supporter of the podcast by becoming a patron. We don t run ads on the podcast and therefore, therefore, it is made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we re doing here, please consider becoming a supporter! You re making choices that help us make wiser choices, and as we make wiser lives, we become happier, and happier! So it becomes a spiral of greater ease, fulfillment, and greater ease so it becomes easier to live a better life. -Samharris - The Making Sense Podcast And as we become wiser, we make better choices, we can make better decisions, which in turn become happier. - So it s possible to become a better human being. - Sam Harris . What is a good human being? This is a concept that can help us all become better at living a wiser in the world. - The Buddha said that we can be better at making better decisions and a more productive human being, and more productive, and so we can live a more meaningful life. - What does it mean to be a wiser life? - What is it possible to be more productive and more mindful? - ? - Why do we begin to see what we make a better place in the present moment? ? - How can we become more productive in the better human experience? - How do we become better human beings? - Why are we are more productive? - What are we all better at being better in the moment? - how do we live a wiser choices? - Is there a direct connection between the nature of our thoughts and feelings and emotions?
00:24:36.400So just a very kind of simple, generic kind of awareness, which is very helpful.
00:24:45.120That begins to open us up to a different understanding of our minds.
00:24:50.700But there are also deeper meanings of mindfulness, which become more significant when we undertake
00:25:00.220it or understand it as a vehicle for something more than simply being a little happier in the
00:25:08.980moment, but rather see mindfulness as a vehicle or a methodology for what we could call awakening
00:25:16.580or, you know, a more profound spiritual understanding, that there's something else that it has
00:25:25.640the potential to reveal, in that meaning of mindfulness, there's not only a choiceless awareness,
00:25:35.020you know, which you were talking about, but embedded in the meaning of mindfulness in that context
00:25:42.200is also, you could say, a discerning wisdom of what is skillful and what is unskillful,
00:25:50.160what causes, or wholesome and unwholesome, whatever words you'd like to use.
00:25:56.320So there is the acknowledgement and the understanding embedded in that kind of mindfulness that some
00:26:04.820mind states are the cause or cause us or others of suffering, that create suffering in our experience,
00:26:15.020both for ourselves and others, and there are certain mind states which are freeing.
00:26:18.880So already there's a wisdom component, you know, in that kind of mindfulness, which takes us a bit
00:26:26.780further than simply being attentive to what's arising. It's like, it's attentive to what's arising,
00:26:34.960but also learning from being attentive. You know, what is it that we're actually learning from being mindful?
00:26:41.540And in that, there is, you could say, there is an implicit choice being made to cultivate the skillful and to let go of the unskillful.
00:26:53.240Except in the moment, there's another level there where the choicelessness is actually the deeper insight in that if you can truly be mindful of the anger,
00:27:04.440say, that was there a moment ago, as anger, because you were identified with thought and not being mindful.
00:27:09.700If you're truly mindful in the next moment, then you realize that anger is just as good an object of mindfulness,
00:27:18.120or, you know, the residue of anger is just as good an object of mindfulness as anything else, including a skillful emotion.
00:27:25.500You know, this is the phrase, one taste in the Tibetan tradition.
00:31:57.300Obviously, that's a term of, of art or jargon within Buddhism.
00:32:01.640What are the range of things that covers?
00:32:03.660I love talking about this because this is a practice that for everybody can have such a tremendous impact in our lives.
00:32:14.400Mostly because we speak a lot, you know, we, we get up in the morning, we spend most of the day or a good part of the day speaking.
00:32:20.480I think very few people actually pay attention before they speak to what they're going to say.
00:32:31.020And I've, you know, I've certainly seen this in myself enough times where words seem to just come tumbling out in the enthusiasm one way or another of the moment.
00:32:41.560Also the intention behind what they're saying.
00:32:44.800Exactly, you know, very often there is a motivation to divide or to cause harm in some way or to speak what is untrue.
00:32:54.500Well, one of my favorites, which it amuses me to see it, is what in, in the Buddhist tradition is called useless talk, where it serves no purpose.
00:33:07.580And the, the word in Pali, which is the ancient language of India that a lot of the texts are written in.
00:33:14.800The Pali word for useless talk, it's, it's really onomatopoeia because the Pali word is sampapalapa.
00:33:24.500And very often I'll be in a conversation, you know, with friends or group of people and just see the urge to say something that is completely useless.
00:33:35.620And it's just a way of declaring, here I am.
00:34:12.660I think there might be ways in which the Buddhist conception of right speech may not totally map on to what we understand about human speech now.
00:34:26.420So, for instance, like gossip is a classic example of wrong speech in a Buddhist sense.
00:34:33.040And you can see how, you can see how divisive gossip often is.
00:34:36.580You can see how you tend to feel when you are around people who are gossiping, especially if it's malicious gossip.
00:34:44.820The impulse in oneself to dish about somebody who's not present can certainly seem, under scrutiny, seem like, you know, not the noblest of things.
00:34:53.860But gossip also does serve a function.
00:34:57.000And in many cases, it serves a good social function.
00:35:01.460Gossiping about others serves a function.
00:35:04.360And living in a context where you know you might be gossiped about, so you have a reputation that you are concerned to manage, that also serves a function.
00:35:13.300It actually builds in a kind of moral shame.
00:35:16.780And it puts a few brakes on the system, you know, and people who are totally shameless, well, some of them get elected president of the United States.
00:35:25.040But in the usual case, it doesn't work out quite that well.
00:35:31.200Do you just think it's intrinsically bad across the board?
00:35:33.500No, I think what you're pointing to is that we use that term to cover quite a wide range of speech.
00:35:41.420And I would say kind of the dividing line or a dividing line between what one might call useful gossip and harmful gossip.
00:35:53.900One dividing line, which is very interesting to observe, is what our motivation is.
00:35:58.560You know, is our motivation really to harm someone, you know, or to cause divisiveness?
00:36:06.280Or is it in some way the sharing of information that seems useful to share?
00:36:12.980Because if the motivation is to harm, in the repetition of that kind of speech, we are creating within ourselves a toxic mental environment.
00:36:26.240And we're creating in our own mind stream impulses and actions filled with some degree of aversion, of hatred, of fear, whatever the unwholesome motivation is.
00:36:43.020So we're just strengthening these forces in the mind that cause us suffering, you know, or creating an inner world for ourselves that's not a peaceful one.
00:36:52.540As well as, you know, causing harm to others.
00:36:57.220So I would say really looking at the motivation behind whatever it is that we're calling gossip is a key element.
00:37:07.540But what about the case where the motivation certainly isn't obviously noble, but nor is it obviously malicious?
00:37:14.040It seems to me that most gossip arises on the basis of people wanting to have amusing, entertaining conversations.
00:37:23.160So like, I have a great, oh, you won't believe what happened to X.
00:37:25.940It's not that I have a malicious attitude toward X.
00:37:30.880It's not that I want, necessarily want to harm X's reputation with you.
00:37:37.220But this is just something amusing that has come to mind.
00:37:42.260And the crucial variable for me, I guess, now I'm kind of looking for the algorithm that covers all of these cases.
00:37:49.520The measure of the toxicity of any of these moments is, I think, largely in the distance between how I'm talking about X now to you
00:38:01.060and how I would be willing to talk about X knowing that X was going to overhear it or if X were in the room, right?
00:38:07.220If there's a drastic difference there, that suggests something unskillful, to put it in Buddhist terms, about my attitude and motives and all the rest.
00:38:16.920No, I think that's a good, simple frame in which to assess.
00:38:22.420I think there is a more subtle level which would not fall within that framework.
00:38:29.200And that is something that I've noticed in myself, and I see it in others as well.
00:38:33.120Even in what seems like benign gossip, kind of the example you say, an interesting aspect to pay attention to is whether in some way, whether speaking in that way is coming from or reinforces a sense of self.
00:38:52.960And I think in very subtle ways, even when it's, you know, it's non-malicious and we're not intending to harm, very often there's just a...
00:39:29.940That is surprising to most people, and on its face, I think, undesirable to most people.
00:39:36.420And it's also something you don't find very much in what you call the secularization of mindfulness.
00:39:43.540Mindfulness as a useful thing to have in your business toolkit, or your efficiency toolkit, or your, you know, something a life coach would give you to improve your functioning in one domain or another.
00:39:56.400So, how do you view the secularization and popularization of mindfulness in the absence of a clear teaching about selflessness or the illusoriness of the self and the other elements of classic Buddhist anchor to the practice?
00:40:17.780I think mindfulness at whatever level, and this seems to be borne out, you know, in people's experience, when it's taught in a secular way, it seems to be helpful.
00:40:29.160People are getting something from it, you know, so I think that's great.
00:40:33.620I don't have any problems with that at all, and I'm glad that it's happening.
00:40:38.520In that, I'm hoping that the deeper aspects of the practice and the teachings are not lost for those who want to pursue them.
00:40:53.240So people are not left with the impression that that's all that mindfulness can offer.
00:40:59.320You know, if people choose to stay with that, we could say, level of practice, that's fine, because it definitely enhances the quality of one's life, and there's more.
00:41:13.580And so, I think it's just helpful, even in the teaching of secular mindfulness, for people who are aware of the greater depth of potential that's possible, even just to mention that.
00:41:25.180You know, that for those of you who are interested, there are other possibilities as well in this practice.
00:41:33.440That's also the whole spectrum, you know, of what's possible is known.
00:41:38.900If I recall correctly, there is a Buddhist sutta.
00:41:43.080This is where my limits as a Pali scholar will likely show themselves, but isn't there a sutta called the Mahamangala Sutta,
00:41:52.160where the Buddha talked about different levels of happiness, and basically, it's just a straightforward acknowledgement that there's a hierarchy of happiness,
00:42:00.000or you have many tiers to happiness, where, you know, the fact that there are deeper, more profound forms of happiness
00:42:07.320that go into very esoteric areas of things like Buddhahood, that doesn't negate that every one of these steps is a step in the direction of happiness.
00:42:16.400So, just having a healthy family is a form of happiness, and it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into the esoterica of nirvana.
00:42:24.260Just, there's the flip side of that as well.
00:42:27.900For those people who might be thinking that by going or aiming for, you know, the higher happiness,
00:42:36.580somehow they're going to miss out on the kinds of happiness we're more familiar with.
00:42:43.700My first teacher, his name was Munindraji, he used to say something which I really loved.
00:42:50.580He said, if you aim for the highest happiness, all the others come along the way.
00:42:56.560So, it's not a question of missing out on anything, it's actually enhancing the probability that we'll experience all the kinds of happiness
00:43:06.860because we understand their causes, we understand what gives rise to them.