Making Sense - Sam Harris - #75 — Ask Me Anything 7

Sam Harris responds to a question from a listener about whether the concept of the self being an illusion is actually an illusion. He also talks about the benefits of mindfulness and meditation, and offers advice on how to make the most of your time in the present moment, and how to practice mindfulness in general, in order to make sense of the world we live in and the lessons we can learn from the past and present, and the things we can do to improve the way we think about the world around us and how we can improve our lives and our lives around us. The podcast is made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers, and we don t run ads on the podcast unless you become a supporter of the podcast. If you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. You'll get access to full episodes of Making Sense Podcast wherever you get your podcasts, plus ad-free versions of the show wherever you consume your favorite podcasting apps, including Audible, iTunes, and Poshmark, wherever you re listening to podcasts. Thanks for listening. Make sense of this episode? and Good Luck! -Sam Harris Copyright 2019: Making Sense Media, LLC. All rights reserved. This episode was produced and edited by Sam Harris. All permission is property of his own making sense and is not affiliated with any of his patrons' companies, unless otherwise stated in this podcast or any other third party licensed under a third party agreement. Thank you for your support and permission to use this material on this podcast, unless stated in the making sense. Please don't forget to tell me what you're listening to this podcast on a podcast or listening to it. or sharing it on social media or using it on their own website, or any of their own podcasting platform if you're looking for a discount or other such thing in any other podcasting service thank you, or you're being compensated for this podcasting opportunity is a friend of this podcast I'm looking out to help me out in any way of any other person else's making sense of it, and I appreciate it, I'm grateful that you're helping me out here, I really appreciate it it's a good thing, thank you thanks you're a good friend of making sense, good day, etc., etc., good luck, good night, good morning, and good night etc.,

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast.

00:00:08.820 This is Sam Harris.

00:00:10.880 Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber

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00:00:46.820 Okay, this is an Ask Me Anything episode.

00:00:50.680 And just one housekeeping item here.

00:00:52.960 I noticed the other day that Amazon canceled my affiliates account.

00:00:59.140 This is the account that allows me to post links to books and to have some portion of

00:01:05.500 your shopping on Amazon through those links come back to support the podcast at no extra

00:01:11.800 cost to you.

00:01:13.080 And they did this because apparently I was in violation of their policy.

00:01:19.100 You can't tell your podcast listeners that following these Amazon links does support the

00:01:25.580 podcast.

00:01:26.020 I'm not sure why they consider this some kind of unethical inducement.

00:01:31.980 It's obvious that this is why podcasters and content creators use Amazon affiliates links.

00:01:38.540 But honestly, I had never read the fine print.

00:01:40.860 And I don't know how frequently it gets updated.

00:01:46.140 I was certainly not in conscious violation of their policy.

00:01:49.780 And, you know, I don't see anything unethical about either way of thinking about this.

00:01:55.860 Obviously, Amazon can have any policy they want.

00:01:57.940 But this is just to inform you that those of you who have been supporting the podcast this

00:02:04.640 way can no longer do that and that those links are now retired.

00:02:09.960 The only ways to support the podcast are through my website at samharris.org forward slash support

00:02:18.640 or through Patreon.

00:02:21.140 And you can find a link to Patreon also on my support page.

00:02:27.500 But this is, I mentioned this for another reason.

00:02:30.840 This is a larger problem that people are running into online.

00:02:34.800 People who are creating content, those who use YouTube ads, which I don't, are often finding their videos demonetized suddenly

00:02:47.160 based on some algorithmic or editorial concern about the content.

00:02:54.160 Podcasters and videographers are just finding that their online businesses evaporate overnight.

00:03:01.300 And I've heard from many ex-Muslims and secularists that their Facebook pages have been canceled

00:03:12.840 based on some perceived blasphemy or even an organized campaign launched by their religious critics.

00:03:22.400 So, it's just a fact that many content creators are very vulnerable to the decisions made by these platforms.

00:03:34.580 And it's easy to lose sight of this vulnerability when we're on social media and building a platform there.

00:03:42.960 Platforms that can be not only useful but indispensable for writers and artists and podcasters.

00:03:49.660 We are using someone else's platform.

00:03:54.160 We are essentially sharecropping for Facebook and Twitter and YouTube.

00:03:59.220 And this can all go away overnight.

00:04:03.040 It's the Wild West out here still when it comes to producing digital content.

00:04:08.260 Okay, so this is an Ask Me Anything podcast.

00:04:11.720 I went out on Twitter asking for questions.

00:04:15.300 And it looks like I got 1,400 of them.

00:04:19.820 Or at least 1,400 responses to the tweet.

00:04:23.600 Now, I'm going to go through these more quickly than usual.

00:04:28.600 In the interest of both hitting more points and seeing if I can do it.

00:04:33.680 One of the features I'm building into my meditation app is a Q&A feature.

00:04:38.920 Where I can answer questions live.

00:04:42.500 So I can announce that I'm going to be on the app for the next hour.

00:04:46.120 Come and ask questions.

00:04:47.760 And it'll be like an audio version of Periscope.

00:04:50.440 Where you can type in questions and I can respond.

00:04:53.820 And I've never done this really.

00:04:56.280 So let's see how it works.

00:04:58.700 Maybe this feature is something I don't need at all.

00:05:02.360 Because it'll just cause me to put my foot in my mouth again and again.

00:05:05.980 Okay, first question.

00:05:10.960 Is it possible that the mindfulness notion of the self being an illusion is itself an illusion?

00:05:17.300 Well, almost anything is possible.

00:05:20.200 I'll tell you why I think it's not an illusion.

00:05:23.240 The classic illusion is something that seems a certain way.

00:05:27.920 But then you pay more attention to it.

00:05:30.680 You study it more carefully.

00:05:32.940 And it seems another way.

00:05:34.460 Right, so it collapses into another form on the basis of paying more attention to the phenomenon.

00:05:44.280 This can be true of visual illusions.

00:05:46.460 You think there's a triangle there.

00:05:50.500 But then you see that the sides of the triangle don't even exist.

00:05:54.540 Right, because they've been merely implied.

00:05:58.100 So you pay more attention and you see that there is no triangle there on the page.

00:06:01.560 Even though there seems to be one.

00:06:04.720 Now, the sense of self, the sense that there's a subject in our heads, a thinker of thoughts,

00:06:12.920 that is a feeling that if you pay more careful attention to it, goes away.

00:06:18.600 And every time it comes back, once you actually know how to pay attention,

00:06:25.100 it is by virtue of being distracted, being captured by something else, being lost in thought, actually.

00:06:33.800 And then when you pay attention again, it goes away.

00:06:36.600 And once you learn how to pay attention, once you really learn how to meditate, it goes away every time.

00:06:44.860 You reliably fail to find this feeling that you've been calling I.

00:06:50.360 Now, I talk much more about this in my book, Waking Up.

00:06:56.020 I will talk much more about this in my forthcoming meditation app.

00:07:01.360 But the idea that there may really be a self that just disappears or seems to disappear every time you look for it

00:07:10.960 is no more compelling to me than the idea that there really is a triangle on the page

00:07:16.480 in the Kinesa-Klein illusion, and that it only seems to disappear every time you look for its sides.

00:07:22.800 And if you're not familiar with the illusion I'm talking about, Google Kinesa-Klein triangle.

00:07:30.140 And you'll see a triangle bounded by three partial circles, or what seems to be a triangle.

00:07:39.380 But again, much more on that in my book, Waking Up, and in my forthcoming app.

00:07:45.860 Tell me some real-life examples that are good for society

00:07:49.600 and that are informed by Charles Murray's research in the bell curve.

00:07:55.440 I guess I should say a few things about the Charles Murray podcast.

00:07:59.520 I got some considerable criticism for that.

00:08:03.060 Glenn Greenwald called me a racist.

00:08:05.620 No surprises there.

00:08:07.360 But I got actually much less criticism than I would have thought.

00:08:11.800 As did Charles.

00:08:12.920 I think we were both pleasantly surprised by the reception.

00:08:18.020 I think he said in his email to me that I appear to have gotten more criticism for having him on the podcast

00:08:23.780 than he was getting for being himself.

00:08:27.940 But in any case, I didn't get all that much.

00:08:30.440 I think people got the point of what I was doing there, which makes me happy.

00:08:36.940 The point of the conversation was not to talk about differences in IQ across race.

00:08:44.640 As I think I made clear, that topic doesn't really interest me.

00:08:49.640 And I share some of the skepticism communicated in this question.

00:08:53.920 When I asked Charles what the point of this kind of research was,

00:08:58.440 many of you felt that his answer was insufficient and a little confusing.

00:09:04.360 I can tell you what I took his answer to be.

00:09:06.540 He seemed to be saying that if we are misled by an irrational expectation

00:09:14.040 that intelligence must be the same statistically across populations,

00:09:19.800 then we will perceive any difference in representation of racial groups or ethnic groups

00:09:27.280 in the various walks of life as being synonymous with racism or bad policy.

00:09:33.920 To take another potentially inflammatory example,

00:09:38.560 it would be conceivable to think that because the number of Jews in the NBA

00:09:44.280 isn't exactly in register with the number of Jews in the population,

00:09:50.140 well, then there's some latent anti-Semitism operating there,

00:09:54.960 keeping Jews off the basketball court. 1.00

00:09:57.760 Now, does anyone think that? 0.95

00:09:59.840 I doubt it.

00:10:00.880 But Charles' general concern is clearly that our expectations and our policies

00:10:06.860 track real facts in the world,

00:10:10.800 and that we not go in search of problems that don't exist,

00:10:14.660 and that we not make other problems that clearly do exist worse

00:10:18.480 by giving them bad remedies.

00:10:20.420 Now, our conversation didn't go into social policy with any depth at all.

00:10:29.580 And I think at one point in the podcast, I simply said,

00:10:32.020 I'm not informed enough about the consequences of various policies

00:10:36.400 to even have that conversation.

00:10:38.540 But the real purpose of that podcast episode

00:10:42.480 was to perform a kind of exorcism on the topic

00:10:46.320 and Murray's reputation.

00:10:48.900 Again, we're talking about a man who cannot stand up on a college campus 1.00

00:10:52.600 without encountering the threat of being physically hounded off of it.

00:10:56.880 UC Berkeley, just the other day,

00:10:59.320 declared that it could not keep Ann Coulter physically safe

00:11:03.260 were she to come to the campus

00:11:05.060 to talk to the college Republicans.

00:11:07.180 Now, I don't agree with Ann Coulter about much.

00:11:10.980 I'm not at all inclined to invite her on the podcast

00:11:13.420 because I think what she says is either boring or insincere.

00:11:18.540 But it's pretty clear we are having a breakdown of civil society

00:11:23.320 when a college cannot keep her safe

00:11:26.180 and puts the onus on her, at least implicitly,

00:11:30.640 and her views and the views of those who want to hear her speak

00:11:33.940 rather than on this moral panic

00:11:37.060 that is shutting down conversation on the left.

00:11:41.500 So I wanted Murray here above all

00:11:44.000 because I realized that I had been somewhat complicit

00:11:47.080 in his defamation

00:11:49.020 merely by my benign neglect of his work.

00:11:53.120 Once it became clear to me

00:11:54.380 that he was a well-intentioned and careful scholar,

00:11:58.300 whatever the merits of his research in fact are,

00:12:01.800 he was not at all the golem 1.00

00:12:04.580 that had been created by the hysteria on the left.

00:12:08.880 So, I had that conversation with Charles.

00:12:11.960 I enjoyed it.

00:12:13.380 Most of you seem to find it quite illuminating.

00:12:17.880 And I have no regrets there.

00:12:21.020 We have to be able to talk about facts

00:12:24.420 without at every turn

00:12:26.820 claiming that those with whom we disagree are evil.

00:12:29.740 If you want to see some criticism of The Bell Curve

00:12:33.020 that came out contemporaneous with its publication,

00:12:36.120 in this Twitter feed,

00:12:38.240 Michael Shermer linked to one of the articles

00:12:41.360 published in Skeptic magazine.

00:12:43.860 If you go to skeptic.com

00:12:46.160 and search Bell Curve,

00:12:48.060 presumably you'll get some older articles there,

00:12:51.540 at least one of which is critical.

00:12:53.320 But, I should say that there's nothing that I have heard

00:12:58.260 since my podcast with Charles

00:13:00.880 that suggests to me that he was misrepresenting

00:13:04.440 the state of the science

00:13:06.200 circa 2017.

00:13:09.740 In fact, one person I heard from was Richard Hayer,

00:13:14.540 an emeritus professor at the University of California, Irvine.

00:13:17.520 Richard is a PhD in psychology

00:13:21.500 who studies the neurobiology of intelligence.

00:13:26.020 And he's written a very recent book

00:13:27.720 for Cambridge University Press

00:13:29.560 entitled The Neuroscience of Intelligence.

00:13:33.400 I have now read part of that book.

00:13:35.760 Just arrived the other day.

00:13:37.920 And what's clear from the parts I've read

00:13:40.280 and from his email to me

00:13:42.660 is that the basic science

00:13:45.300 that Murray was discussing

00:13:47.000 has held up.

00:13:49.120 As controversial as it still is in some quarters,

00:13:52.580 the notion of general intelligence

00:13:55.380 seems valid.

00:13:58.580 IQ tests can test for it.

00:14:01.680 There's no reason to think that

00:14:03.040 we are unable to do this

00:14:05.680 in an unbiased way.

00:14:08.340 And the results of these tests

00:14:11.080 are predictive of a wide variety of outcomes

00:14:15.000 educationally, occupationally, and otherwise.

00:14:20.060 And there seems to be absolutely no question

00:14:23.380 that intelligence is highly heritable

00:14:26.940 and correlates with neurophysiological facts

00:14:31.600 at the level of the brain.

00:14:34.360 So again, this is not my area of special interest.

00:14:38.280 And none of this is to claim that

00:14:40.240 intelligence is the only thing

00:14:42.400 that dictates success in life.

00:14:44.880 I'm sure many of you know

00:14:46.360 some very smart people

00:14:47.560 who haven't done much of anything

00:14:49.640 with their lives

00:14:50.860 or have done some very questionable things.

00:14:54.260 I certainly know such people.

00:14:56.580 And no doubt we will find out more

00:14:58.640 about the brain basis of intelligence

00:15:00.800 in the coming years.

00:15:01.760 whether we will be able to augment it

00:15:04.760 directly by brain-machine interface.

00:15:09.600 That's another question

00:15:10.680 that has come up, I see, repeatedly here.

00:15:13.940 Many of you have asked

00:15:14.960 what I think of Elon Musk's

00:15:17.200 new company Neuralink

00:15:18.620 and his goal of building

00:15:22.780 a brain-computer interface

00:15:25.160 that not only will be useful

00:15:27.160 for people suffering

00:15:28.800 neurological injury or disease

00:15:30.340 but will be so useful

00:15:32.080 and so readily adopted

00:15:34.520 that we will all become cyborgs 0.64

00:15:37.240 and plug our brains

00:15:39.420 directly into the cloud.

00:15:41.660 Well, first I should say

00:15:42.920 that I don't have any

00:15:43.580 inside information on this.

00:15:45.260 I actually haven't spoken to Elon

00:15:46.380 about this much

00:15:47.780 apart from early conversations

00:15:50.380 about the fact that he was doing this.

00:15:53.220 Most of what I know about the company

00:15:55.000 I learned recently

00:15:56.720 from Tim Urban's blog post

00:15:59.240 about Elon and Neuralink

00:16:01.720 which you can read

00:16:03.140 on the Wait But Why blog.

00:16:05.600 And if you don't know Tim Urban

00:16:06.620 and his blog

00:16:07.440 you really should.

00:16:09.160 He's fantastic.

00:16:10.860 He's another one of these

00:16:11.840 content creators

00:16:12.840 who you can support on Patreon

00:16:15.640 as I do.

00:16:18.300 He's amazing.

00:16:20.240 I'll have him on the podcast

00:16:21.480 at some point

00:16:22.240 because he's doing something

00:16:23.700 very unique.

00:16:25.000 And he's written these very long

00:16:27.480 really book-length blog posts

00:16:29.660 on Elon and his various companies.

00:16:32.140 He's done it for SpaceX and Tesla

00:16:34.060 and he just did one

00:16:36.460 for Neuralink.

00:16:38.820 So you can read there

00:16:40.600 just how daunting

00:16:42.320 the technical challenges are

00:16:44.500 in doing this.

00:16:46.020 Just what it means

00:16:47.060 to put an array

00:16:48.020 of whatever material composition

00:16:50.380 on the cortex

00:16:51.820 or implant anything

00:16:54.100 into the brain

00:16:55.580 hoping to be able to read out

00:16:58.580 the activity

00:16:59.560 of vast numbers of neurons

00:17:02.360 so as to get the data

00:17:04.280 of conscious and unconscious thought

00:17:06.280 out into the world

00:17:08.560 much less reading programs

00:17:10.360 from the world

00:17:11.060 back into the brain

00:17:12.560 so as to influence

00:17:14.100 its functioning.

00:17:15.140 This is an incredibly

00:17:17.180 daunting challenge.

00:17:18.660 I think it's

00:17:19.040 no exaggeration

00:17:20.000 to say

00:17:20.300 this is the

00:17:20.960 most ambitious

00:17:22.280 thing

00:17:23.420 technically

00:17:24.420 that we can imagine.

00:17:26.760 When you consider

00:17:27.880 the possibility

00:17:28.680 of helping

00:17:29.420 people

00:17:30.260 whose brains

00:17:31.760 have been damaged

00:17:32.600 either by injury

00:17:33.940 or illness

00:17:34.440 well then this is

00:17:35.320 totally uncontroversial.

00:17:37.480 It's a wonderful thing

00:17:38.780 to be tempting

00:17:39.960 and there's already

00:17:42.140 some progress

00:17:42.940 on those fronts

00:17:44.220 but when you

00:17:45.560 imagine the bigger picture

00:17:47.140 of

00:17:48.260 fundamentally

00:17:49.520 augmenting

00:17:50.420 human intelligence

00:17:51.300 so that we're not

00:17:52.740 in a losing

00:17:53.460 competition

00:17:54.380 with the machines

00:17:55.480 of the future

00:17:56.080 well obviously

00:17:57.760 there are a few

00:17:58.680 assumptions there

00:17:59.460 that will be

00:18:00.380 controversial

00:18:00.900 and at least

00:18:02.800 one

00:18:03.360 that strikes me

00:18:04.860 as

00:18:05.420 potentially

00:18:06.520 far-fetched

00:18:07.760 and that's

00:18:08.940 the assumption

00:18:09.320 that

00:18:09.960 it will be

00:18:10.480 possible to do

00:18:11.260 this in a way

00:18:11.740 that is sufficiently

00:18:12.640 non-invasive

00:18:14.200 so that

00:18:15.280 we'll all want

00:18:16.580 to have

00:18:17.180 our brains

00:18:18.320 connected to the cloud.

00:18:20.320 Anything that

00:18:21.220 requires

00:18:21.800 neurosurgery

00:18:23.400 obviously

00:18:24.240 is setting the

00:18:25.380 bar

00:18:25.660 pretty high

00:18:26.580 and

00:18:27.420 it remains

00:18:28.340 to be seen

00:18:28.880 just how

00:18:29.520 non-invasive

00:18:30.420 a brain-machine

00:18:31.720 interface

00:18:32.340 can become

00:18:33.160 but the

00:18:34.120 technical challenges

00:18:35.100 are fairly

00:18:36.380 astounding

00:18:37.340 and

00:18:38.180 Tim Urban's

00:18:39.540 blog post

00:18:40.040 will

00:18:40.240 give you

00:18:41.060 a good

00:18:41.280 sense

00:18:41.580 of what

00:18:42.380 they are.

00:18:44.220 Do you

00:18:45.120 think reducing

00:18:45.960 wild animal

00:18:47.060 suffering

00:18:47.520 is a moral

00:18:48.280 blind spot

00:18:48.940 of modern

00:18:49.780 humans

00:18:50.260 or a moral

00:18:51.160 error?

00:18:51.560 I remember

00:18:54.000 hearing about

00:18:55.580 some vegans

00:18:56.500 who thought

00:18:57.580 it a moral

00:18:58.500 duty

00:18:58.880 to prevent

00:19:00.660 various predators

00:19:02.300 on the African

00:19:03.680 savannah

00:19:04.220 from killing

00:19:05.360 their prey.

00:19:07.340 Who knows if that

00:19:08.460 was just a

00:19:08.980 slander of vegans

00:19:10.140 but I'm sure

00:19:11.340 somebody's capable

00:19:12.160 of thinking that.

00:19:13.240 It is a kind of

00:19:14.060 reductio ad absurdum

00:19:15.180 of an ethical

00:19:16.620 concern for

00:19:17.400 animals

00:19:17.820 but the underlying

00:19:19.320 fact is that

00:19:20.820 nature is

00:19:22.300 not a

00:19:24.060 theater

00:19:25.100 of moral

00:19:26.160 concern.

00:19:27.360 Really,

00:19:28.160 it is an

00:19:28.580 abattoir.

00:19:29.840 Everything

00:19:30.240 is getting

00:19:31.300 eaten.

00:19:33.080 Every

00:19:33.840 animal

00:19:35.240 with the

00:19:36.180 exception of

00:19:36.820 the apex

00:19:37.920 predators

00:19:38.480 lives in

00:19:39.740 perpetual flight

00:19:40.840 from the other

00:19:42.180 animals that

00:19:42.860 want to make

00:19:43.560 it a meal.

00:19:45.140 There is no

00:19:46.280 way to

00:19:47.120 intercede

00:19:48.820 here that

00:19:49.920 doesn't

00:19:50.440 directly cause

00:19:51.960 the starvation

00:19:53.300 and therefore

00:19:54.280 misery and

00:19:55.180 death of

00:19:56.420 some other

00:19:57.380 species.

00:19:59.220 And then when

00:19:59.600 you add the

00:20:00.260 layer of

00:20:01.360 contagious

00:20:02.420 illness and

00:20:04.000 parasites, 0.95

00:20:05.860 right, the

00:20:06.240 fact that

00:20:06.720 every creature

00:20:07.560 is more or

00:20:09.040 less all the

00:20:09.520 time being

00:20:10.020 victimized by

00:20:11.260 various worms

00:20:12.940 and amoebas,

00:20:15.500 it's pretty

00:20:16.160 clear that

00:20:16.880 there is no

00:20:17.880 all-seen and

00:20:18.760 all-powerful,

00:20:19.860 compassionate

00:20:20.380 god who

00:20:21.660 set this

00:20:22.120 place up

00:20:22.740 for general

00:20:24.700 equanimity.

00:20:25.940 So, yeah, I

00:20:26.880 don't see how

00:20:27.440 we intercede on

00:20:28.280 behalf of the

00:20:28.800 rabbits and

00:20:29.380 the pigeons

00:20:30.440 and take a

00:20:31.780 position against

00:20:32.760 the foxes and

00:20:34.160 coyotes and

00:20:34.980 hawks.

00:20:35.680 I do feel a

00:20:37.980 little strange

00:20:38.580 about people

00:20:39.260 who keep

00:20:40.340 pet snakes

00:20:41.400 and repeatedly

00:20:44.240 feed them

00:20:45.040 mammals like 1.00

00:20:46.780 mice and

00:20:47.340 rats.

00:20:48.360 There's a

00:20:49.040 cognitive

00:20:49.480 hierarchy there

00:20:50.500 that I

00:20:51.000 wouldn't want

00:20:51.460 to keep

00:20:52.660 standing on

00:20:53.920 the wrong

00:20:54.320 side of

00:20:54.980 day after

00:20:56.180 day.

00:20:56.840 I think the

00:20:57.780 rats and

00:20:58.260 the mice

00:20:58.700 suffer more

00:20:59.900 than the

00:21:00.660 snakes.

00:21:02.140 That could 0.68

00:21:02.780 just be my

00:21:03.220 warm-blooded

00:21:03.820 bias, but

00:21:05.200 the neurological

00:21:05.680 details would

00:21:06.980 back me up

00:21:07.520 there.

00:21:09.220 Next question.

00:21:11.260 How is

00:21:12.160 Brazilian

00:21:13.080 jiu-jitsu

00:21:13.620 coming?

00:21:15.060 Slowly, as

00:21:16.260 ever.

00:21:17.480 I absolutely

00:21:18.540 love it.

00:21:19.440 I'm still in

00:21:20.240 the mode of

00:21:21.020 perpetually

00:21:21.620 mitigating

00:21:22.420 injury, so

00:21:23.200 I don't do

00:21:23.780 it nearly as

00:21:24.260 much as I

00:21:24.680 would want

00:21:25.360 to.

00:21:26.460 I think I

00:21:27.300 will probably

00:21:27.960 be a blue

00:21:29.040 belt for the

00:21:29.900 rest of my

00:21:30.320 life at this

00:21:31.500 rate, but it

00:21:33.040 does remain

00:21:33.680 one of the

00:21:34.300 most gratifying

00:21:35.740 hours I can

00:21:37.180 spend doing

00:21:38.080 anything.

00:21:39.760 What are your

00:21:40.400 thoughts on

00:21:40.800 Kevin Kelly's

00:21:41.780 article, The

00:21:42.980 Myth of

00:21:43.500 Superhuman

00:21:44.080 AI?

00:21:45.300 Actually, I've

00:21:46.160 read the

00:21:46.440 article, and

00:21:47.840 Kevin got in

00:21:49.140 touch with me,

00:21:49.760 and we're going

00:21:50.340 to do a

00:21:51.000 podcast, I

00:21:52.620 think in about

00:21:53.100 a month here.

00:21:54.860 I have to

00:21:55.220 check the

00:21:55.520 calendar, but

00:21:56.740 it's already

00:21:57.300 scheduled, and

00:21:58.280 I look forward

00:21:58.740 to that.

00:21:59.040 We disagree

00:21:59.800 about many

00:22:01.420 things on

00:22:02.460 this topic, and

00:22:03.520 that should

00:22:04.260 be a fun

00:22:04.740 conversation.

00:22:06.240 I think we

00:22:06.600 disagree about

00:22:07.160 religion and

00:22:08.260 a few other

00:22:08.820 things, too, so

00:22:09.500 I'm looking

00:22:10.660 forward to

00:22:11.000 that.

00:22:12.540 How do you

00:22:12.800 think your

00:22:13.100 friend, the

00:22:13.700 late, great

00:22:14.260 Christopher

00:22:14.680 Hitchens, would 0.99

00:22:15.880 have dealt

00:22:16.240 with the

00:22:16.560 Trump

00:22:16.800 presidency?

00:22:18.840 Well,

00:22:20.600 eloquently, no

00:22:22.160 doubt, and he

00:22:23.420 has missed more

00:22:24.260 than ever at

00:22:25.020 this point, I

00:22:25.500 would say.

00:22:26.740 Once again, many

00:22:27.380 people are under

00:22:28.120 the impression that

00:22:28.900 he hated the

00:22:29.620 Clintons so 0.64

00:22:30.640 much that he

00:22:31.660 would have

00:22:31.940 obviously sided

00:22:33.180 with Trump.

00:22:34.980 Given what I

00:22:36.180 know about

00:22:36.720 Hitch, that

00:22:37.780 seems almost

00:22:38.800 perfectly delusional.

00:22:41.020 I honestly

00:22:42.120 cannot imagine a

00:22:43.900 candidate and

00:22:44.900 his surrogates who

00:22:46.260 are more at

00:22:47.020 odds with

00:22:48.240 Hitch's deepest 0.60

00:22:49.500 intellectual values.

00:22:51.340 The lack of

00:22:52.340 honesty and real

00:22:55.080 intellectual engagement

00:22:56.240 with history and

00:22:58.600 with policy and

00:23:00.460 facts as they

00:23:01.540 can be known.

00:23:04.200 But unfortunately,

00:23:05.240 we do not have

00:23:05.780 the pleasure of

00:23:06.620 his company now.

00:23:08.800 And if you

00:23:10.120 think I'm soft

00:23:10.920 on the Clintons,

00:23:12.060 go back and

00:23:13.140 listen to my

00:23:13.660 podcast with

00:23:14.440 Andrew Sullivan

00:23:15.100 that we did in

00:23:16.320 the run-up to

00:23:17.260 the election.

00:23:18.720 I certainly

00:23:19.480 share most of

00:23:20.740 Hitch's view 0.59

00:23:22.540 of both

00:23:23.620 Clintons.

00:23:24.120 But we now

00:23:26.880 have the

00:23:27.300 president we

00:23:27.800 have.

00:23:29.400 And barring

00:23:30.060 some impeachment

00:23:30.940 proceeding relative

00:23:32.780 to the Russian

00:23:34.100 hacking scandal,

00:23:35.400 it would seem we

00:23:36.520 have to make the

00:23:36.940 best of it for

00:23:38.480 the time being.

00:23:40.900 Will you do a

00:23:42.060 podcast with Ben

00:23:43.120 Shapiro on

00:23:44.120 religion?

00:23:44.540 Many people

00:23:46.760 have asked that

00:23:47.320 I do something

00:23:48.140 with Ben.

00:23:48.960 I am certainly

00:23:49.720 open to it.

00:23:50.400 In fact, Dave

00:23:51.620 Rubin has

00:23:53.040 threatened to

00:23:53.740 get us together

00:23:54.380 on his show.

00:23:55.760 I'm not entirely

00:23:56.620 sure what we

00:23:57.720 would get into,

00:23:58.860 but Ben is

00:23:59.540 obviously smart,

00:24:00.640 and we disagree

00:24:01.480 about many things,

00:24:02.380 although Trump

00:24:03.120 is not one of

00:24:03.920 them.

00:24:04.340 Ben is a,

00:24:05.080 last I looked,

00:24:06.100 not a Trump

00:24:06.660 fan.

00:24:07.800 But he is a

00:24:09.000 conservative,

00:24:09.860 and I believe

00:24:10.840 he's a conservative

00:24:11.620 or even

00:24:13.340 Orthodox Jew.

00:24:15.000 Not sure,

00:24:15.740 but no doubt

00:24:17.020 there's something

00:24:17.400 to disagree about

00:24:18.100 there, and

00:24:18.880 I am open to

00:24:20.500 it.

00:24:20.940 Not sure when

00:24:21.520 it's going to

00:24:22.080 happen, however.

00:24:24.460 Some of you

00:24:25.100 have noticed

00:24:25.640 my trolling

00:24:27.380 of Jocko

00:24:28.140 Willink and

00:24:29.520 his trolling

00:24:30.400 of me online.

00:24:32.060 I forget how

00:24:32.580 this started.

00:24:34.000 I think I

00:24:34.560 once revealed

00:24:35.720 that I was

00:24:36.760 a fan of

00:24:37.500 Downton Abbey

00:24:38.340 on a podcast

00:24:39.220 and started

00:24:41.100 getting

00:24:41.320 slammed for

00:24:42.160 it on

00:24:43.000 Twitter,

00:24:43.640 and then

00:24:44.760 I just

00:24:45.600 went out,

00:24:46.180 I just

00:24:46.520 lurched at

00:24:47.720 Jocko on

00:24:49.140 Twitter saying

00:24:49.780 something like,

00:24:50.460 well, I

00:24:52.040 happen to know

00:24:52.520 that when

00:24:52.780 Jocko's doing

00:24:53.560 his deadlifts

00:24:54.400 in his

00:24:54.820 basement at

00:24:55.480 four in the

00:24:56.000 morning, he's

00:24:57.200 watching old

00:24:57.960 episodes of

00:24:58.780 Downton Abbey.

00:25:00.160 Isn't that

00:25:00.500 right, Jocko?

00:25:01.600 Those of you

00:25:02.300 who don't know

00:25:02.660 Jocko, Jocko

00:25:03.440 is a Navy

00:25:04.440 SEAL and

00:25:05.920 now New York

00:25:07.160 Times number

00:25:07.820 one best-selling

00:25:08.620 author of

00:25:09.880 the book

00:25:10.860 Extreme

00:25:11.340 Ownership

00:25:11.840 with his

00:25:13.420 Navy SEAL

00:25:14.380 co-author

00:25:14.980 Leif Babin

00:25:16.140 and Jocko's

00:25:17.140 also a

00:25:17.660 jujitsu

00:25:18.380 black belt.

00:25:19.980 He's about

00:25:20.680 the most

00:25:21.480 macho guy

00:25:22.440 you will

00:25:23.360 ever meet

00:25:23.820 but also

00:25:24.900 one of the

00:25:25.600 nicest guys.

00:25:26.960 Anyway, so

00:25:27.540 people have been

00:25:28.460 trying to get us

00:25:29.080 together to

00:25:29.800 debate free

00:25:31.060 will, I

00:25:31.580 think, because

00:25:32.260 his kind of

00:25:34.000 core ethic

00:25:34.900 and productivity

00:25:36.220 hack is to

00:25:37.400 take what he

00:25:38.220 calls extreme

00:25:39.060 ownership over

00:25:40.420 the things that

00:25:41.260 happen in your

00:25:42.220 life.

00:25:42.740 You know, when

00:25:43.080 your efforts

00:25:43.560 come to

00:25:44.040 naught, don't

00:25:45.500 blame the

00:25:45.900 world, don't

00:25:46.660 blame other

00:25:47.020 people, you

00:25:48.160 have to own

00:25:48.720 the whole

00:25:49.620 process.

00:25:50.420 That's how you

00:25:50.960 improve, that's

00:25:51.740 how you inspire

00:25:52.560 more trust in

00:25:53.440 people who are

00:25:54.120 collaborating with

00:25:54.760 you.

00:25:55.940 There's a lot

00:25:56.620 to be said

00:25:57.120 about the

00:25:58.300 wisdom of

00:25:58.740 doing that

00:25:59.200 and people

00:26:00.160 seem to think

00:26:00.940 that this is

00:26:01.880 at odds with

00:26:02.580 my view of

00:26:04.000 free will.

00:26:05.480 It may be

00:26:06.540 in certain

00:26:07.620 cases, but

00:26:08.880 generally speaking,

00:26:09.980 I don't think

00:26:10.400 it is.

00:26:11.160 But in any

00:26:11.560 case, people

00:26:11.880 want us to

00:26:12.660 debate free

00:26:13.960 will, which

00:26:15.020 I would be

00:26:15.320 happy to do.

00:26:16.440 So we've

00:26:17.080 been pitted

00:26:17.740 together online

00:26:18.620 and Jocko

00:26:20.340 has been

00:26:20.940 threatening to

00:26:22.460 demolish me

00:26:23.340 in debate

00:26:23.980 and I have

00:26:25.500 been threatening

00:26:26.000 to physically 0.80

00:26:27.380 demolish him. 0.99

00:26:29.600 And I would

00:26:30.360 encourage those

00:26:31.240 of you who

00:26:31.560 listen to

00:26:31.820 the Jocko

00:26:32.200 podcast, to

00:26:34.120 listen to his

00:26:34.820 more recent

00:26:35.360 episodes, to

00:26:36.400 detect any

00:26:37.900 sign of fear

00:26:38.800 in him.

00:26:40.460 He can only

00:26:41.320 conceal it for

00:26:41.980 so long.

00:26:43.560 He's got to

00:26:44.280 be under a lot

00:26:44.700 of pressure

00:26:45.100 knowing that

00:26:46.320 I'm out here

00:26:47.360 training.

00:26:50.780 Hearing from

00:26:51.500 some people

00:26:51.940 here who

00:26:52.840 used to be

00:26:54.280 religious and

00:26:55.660 got reasoned

00:26:57.200 out of their

00:26:57.840 religion by

00:26:59.580 me and

00:27:00.200 others,

00:27:00.580 it's amazing

00:27:01.960 that many

00:27:02.280 people think

00:27:02.720 this never

00:27:03.440 happens.

00:27:04.360 It happens

00:27:04.980 all the

00:27:05.300 time and

00:27:06.680 I continually

00:27:07.220 see the

00:27:07.600 evidence of

00:27:08.100 it.

00:27:08.360 So this

00:27:09.600 idea that

00:27:10.020 you can't

00:27:10.540 reason people

00:27:11.220 out of their

00:27:11.800 faith is

00:27:13.040 just not

00:27:13.580 true.

00:27:15.740 What you

00:27:16.420 can't generally

00:27:17.440 do is do

00:27:19.240 it within the

00:27:20.400 hour of a

00:27:21.040 scheduled debate

00:27:21.860 or otherwise

00:27:23.240 on demand.

00:27:24.740 But it

00:27:25.500 happens.

00:27:25.960 how would

00:27:27.720 someone lose

00:27:28.940 their faith?

00:27:30.280 Just a

00:27:31.140 blow to the

00:27:32.020 head or a 0.93

00:27:33.460 good scare?

00:27:34.980 No, generally

00:27:36.020 it's one of

00:27:36.880 two ways.

00:27:38.240 They either

00:27:38.760 discover the

00:27:39.620 ways in which

00:27:40.200 various doctrines

00:27:41.200 don't make a

00:27:42.040 lot of sense

00:27:42.740 or they

00:27:45.000 don't want the

00:27:45.400 sort of life

00:27:46.100 that seems to

00:27:47.080 be dictated

00:27:47.720 by any kind

00:27:49.720 of serious

00:27:50.340 adherence to

00:27:51.840 revelation.

00:27:53.200 So some

00:27:53.960 combination of

00:27:54.740 those two

00:27:55.240 either doesn't

00:27:56.400 make sense

00:27:57.020 or doesn't

00:27:58.120 lead somewhere

00:27:58.920 good.

00:28:00.740 But the

00:28:01.360 first reason I

00:28:02.140 think is always

00:28:02.700 the more

00:28:03.180 compelling.

00:28:04.340 People will

00:28:04.800 make fairly

00:28:05.440 impressive

00:28:06.060 sacrifices to

00:28:07.820 their own

00:28:08.180 happiness and

00:28:09.280 even to the

00:28:09.680 happiness of

00:28:10.200 their children

00:28:10.800 if they

00:28:11.940 believe that

00:28:13.260 the doctrines

00:28:14.560 that justify

00:28:15.480 and even

00:28:16.560 mandate those

00:28:17.420 sacrifices are

00:28:18.860 true.

00:28:20.060 So the

00:28:20.780 question of

00:28:21.220 truth is

00:28:22.220 everyone's

00:28:22.820 concern.

00:28:23.840 This is

00:28:24.160 another point

00:28:25.300 of confusion.

00:28:25.980 The idea

00:28:26.320 that religious

00:28:27.360 people,

00:28:28.000 religious

00:28:28.260 fundamentalists

00:28:29.200 aren't really

00:28:30.860 concerned about

00:28:31.720 what's true.

00:28:33.500 No, they're as

00:28:34.280 concerned as

00:28:34.920 anyone.

00:28:35.800 They're far

00:28:36.500 more concerned

00:28:37.300 in fact about

00:28:38.980 truth than

00:28:40.280 many so-called

00:28:40.980 religious minds.

00:28:42.740 If you'd like

00:28:43.560 to continue

00:28:43.980 listening to

00:28:44.440 this conversation

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Making Sense - Sam Harris - May 12, 2017

#75 — Ask Me Anything 7

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